Newbie 1671 - Game Over (Scum win)

[tictac]

Hello all.
It's 5 in the morning here, I'll come back to this tomorrow.

[tictac]

I'm on 56 on my readthrough.
VOTE: Kuro

-I've yet to see scumhunting of any kind from him.
-54 asks the question "What is RVS". Before that the acronym was used in posts 31,27,25,22,21. Am I supposed to believe that the entire exchange about jake not RVSing was nonsense to him, yet he didn't feel compelled to ask about it before 54? As town? I think that shows profound disinterest in what others are saying in the thread. Contrast with 48 where he expresses belief that town can catch scum.
-He reacts to franksa's confusion about the matter as if it's an accusation. Almost as if he knew what he was saying was suspicious.

@Kuro: I'd like you to link some off-site games of yours.

[tictac]

@Plot
Why did you call Maxspir "Maxwell"?

Why give stats of your town-games but not scum-games?

20 evades a question by answering a different one. Why? I'm townreading you some, but that one was weird.

[tictac]

@franksa
I like the observation about Kuro on 56.
Why didn't you consider it suspicious?
Why express it only when prompted?

[tictac]

on 59:
OMGUS much?
Also Kuros vote was still on Coffee for RVS. Why not vote here?
@Kuro "You can't have it both ways." applies to you and is exactly the thing frank was expressing confusion about. Turning it around is just weird.

"cast doubt on me where there wasn't before."
Give me a break. Everyone is a suspect here

as you should well know if town

[tictac]

I did state it was only slight suspicion. I didn't even vote you. So no, I don't think I'm taking it far.

The posts speak for themselves.

LOL
@Kuro: You can be a timid newbie who uses FOS instead of a vote or you can be a guy who says stuff like:"posts speak for themselves"
You can't be both.

[tictac]

Wow Kuroi, I think you are defending yourself a bit too much. I ended our "arguement" and acknowledged that you are not a newbie and I misread you intention to act like one, then simply answered you last question and look at this now. This is at least weird from you...

I don't see him defending himself too much.

This post is pretty typical for Jake, but this instance could well be important, so I am highlighting it.

[tictac]

I'd also like to say that I'm going to be a lot more active on the weekdays than I am on the weekends. On the weekdays, I'm at work and I'm near a computer. On the weekends, my fiancee takes up a lot of my time - and if she isn't happy, no one's happy.

Since I was last online, here's what's changed from what I've read:

Jake - He says a lot without talking too much. It shows that he's paying attention and has the potential of being a dangerous player, but I'm getting a town read.

Raskolnikov (I'm going to start calling you Rask for brevity's sake, unless you're not comfortable with that) - Buttered me up a little as I was his only town read, but I found him quick to emotion for merely being accused of not giving reasons. Yes, I found you over-defensive. However, I can't say that's scummy because I don't know if you're normally quick to emotion. I'll be keeping an eye on you also.

Plotinus - I completely understand that he's trying to get the game moving and I can totally understand if you ask once or twice, but he's nearly asking everyone about everyone else. I don't see this as a scum read. In fact, I see him as town - albeit a bit quirky. If anything, it's just a little annoying to read.

Franksa - He does feel that I'm scummy, and I can actually understand why. I FOS'd him and he's defensive. I'm not lifting my FOS, especially since he reacted very strongly to it.

Now this brings me to one last gentleman... (or lady)

Phantom - I definitely have a scum read right now. It's quite possible that he's just an aggressive player, but having scum/town reads is hardly grabbing, let alone

too much.

Plus, explicitly asking Franksa's role is at best, naive. Either way, it doesn't help us. I think at this point, he's scummy enough to be voted, on Day One too.

Unvote. Vote: PhantomCobalt

This boils down to:
- "Plot&Jake (the experienced players) town."
- "I'm jumping on Phantom as third."
- "no commit on anyone else."

- "p.s. no behavior is alignment indicative without meta."

Come on people. How is Kuro not the leading vote yet?

[tictac]

It simply wasn't used on

any of the places

I've played Mafia.

My mafia playing has been on the Roughkut boards. When I checked on

it

before I signed up on Mafiascum,

the Mafia board

has been deleted.

Explain "any of the places" please.

You're struggling very hard for that whole RVS question. I can play Mafia, but acronyms and terminology I've only heard on this board isn't indicative of my skill.

Don't defend against points I am not making.

shows profound disinterest in what others are saying in the thread

It's very unbecoming for you to focus so much on it.

Your energy is better spent on something that means a damn.

BTW, if you want to shorten my name, please call me Kuroi - with an I at the end.

sure
VOTE: Kuroi

Everyone is suspect, but not every post is. Am I supposed to zoom in on Player A joke-voting Player B during the beginning post of the games?

Yes!

If something comes across as suspicious, I'll look a bit closer but to suggest I act paranoid on every vote isn't helpful.

Yes it is.

So no, there wasn't doubt on me - not more than there was on any other person.

So you decided scumhunting was suspicious.
Also: Yes there was. You were suspected of buddying until you flipped your attitude towards Plot to "annoying".

Like Jake said,

Do your own defending.

I wasn't trying hard in defending myself - nor was I defensive.

I think you were.
Now you aren't. I am detecting coaching.

Also: there is way more to scumhunting than seeing if someone is defensive or not.

[tictac]

@tictac Hello! Can you comment (either way) on the 2 wagons we've had?

Not fully caught up yet.

From pre-read skim I buy the PC gambit mainly because of the timing.
Franks reaction seemed natural to me. Confusion leads to suspicion and suspicion leads to a vote.
From 207 Plots case on him seemed to consist of townreading nearly everything he does+ that reaction?
Not sure why people thought it was convincing.

I expect a scum within [Franksa, Plotinus]

Why?

also:

Intent to Hammer.

Ending the day with substantial amount of time still on the clock is widely considered a scumclaim.

[tictac]

moikka tictac!

I felt similarly to you about Kuroi earlier on but then I changed my mind with his later posts. Idk. When you're caught up if you still feel that way about him let me know. I started feeling better about Kuroi on page 3 somewhere but I don't remember why now. Wasn't sure if he was just being sloppy on page 4 or scummy (at the time i thought sloppy).

I've learned to scumread high showmanship+low actual content.
I'll see how it develops, but I'm not holding my breath.

+I'm thinking I caught him in an actual contradiction.

because i'm town

both serious and correct.

Could you link that?

Your townread on me is based on the 3 posts I had up until that time? At this stage in the game I haven't done very much yet.

Not everything I post or read is in chronological order.
+You pretty much started the wagon you have on now in 26 so you could have better reads(as town) or less influence(as scum).

How do you feel about the "intent to put at L-1" part of that post?

Newbish. A bit timid. We don't have lol-hammerish people here. Time for being squeamish about L-1 has passed.

[tictac]

Ending the day with substantial amount of time still on the clock is widely considered a scumclaim.

You're implying that's what I wanted to do, which is wrong. That's a clear misinterpretation of what I said. Context is important.

You said "intent to lynch" man.
If you mean "I support this wagon", say "I support this wagon".

How are you more careful about putting someone in L-1 than lynching them?

+ I have a problem with your POE since you apparently cleared Kuroi and if your 1 active 1 passive is correct you are pretty much quaranteed to hit town in my view.
+ 1 active 1 passive probably isn't correct. Passive players are passive and active players are active. A different wincon doesn't change someones activity level.

I'll come back to this when I have more context on you.

[tictac]

Kuroi just self-voted!!

[tictac]

He's

so

calm and collected.

[tictac]

urgh. That came off mean. Not my intention.
I apologize.

[tictac]

In 26 I liked franksa for voting me because I thought newbie scum would be less likely to do that right at the start of the game, and I liked Aurora and Mormon for voting SEs. Was a "good enough for page 1" townread not a super serious one. But I was worried about franksa becuase I knew he'd read the last game I ICed where I townread Neko and Willow for the same thing early on, so I thought he might be doing it on purpose.

Huh. If you don't know what I am talking about, maybe it wasn't intentional.
You refused to share your reasons to scum/townread and the first impression people got from you was secretive.

[tictac]

Although I do believe votes don't truly count unless I legitimately unvoted.

Pretty sure they count as changed vote.

[tictac]

Explain "any of the places" please.

I said it. Roughkut. I've also played it in an e-fed calling UWE. I can certainly point you to two members of Mafiascum, but I want a mod to assure me I wouldn't break any rules by telling you.

play-by-mail then. Bit weird to conceptualize it as a 'place' but it's possible.
Since Roughkut did exist, is closed and did have mafia on it, I'll concede that you probably didn't lie about being unable to show your previous games.

I'm not creating a strawman argument. You are faulting me for not knowing what an RVS is, implying that I'm new.

That is exactly what a strawman is.
I have never 'faulted' you for being new.
I suspect you because you

didn't

ask about RVS

sooner

.

I admitted that what I said did seem like buddying, because he wasn't walking on egg shells and creating a dreadful day one. If you think I'm scummy for that, go ahead

Another strawman.
I think you are scummy because you flipped your expressed opinion on Plot without a visible reason when people said you were buddying.
(I am thinking coaching)

Your jedi mind tricks only work on the weak-minded.

You do realize you are casting yourself as Jabba the Hutt there?

Caught up enough to vote for me, though, it seems.

Yup.

[tictac]

Being a little bit secretive about my reads in the first part of day 1 when I'm an IC, or otherwise in a town leader position, is a trick that I learned from goodmorning and I've seen other players like nacho do it too. If I haven't said what I'm thinking, then finding people who do say what I'm thinking can be signs that they share my alignment. If I say on page 1 that I think x and y and z are town for doing q then everyone will start doing q, whether they're town or scum and they'll all look alike.

But there comes a point when it outlives its usefulness. And it's hard for me to hold back; I can't keep it up very long.

Yup. You said pretty much the same thing before. Why are you answering my statements as if they are questions?

If I'm interrogating somebody or if I'm interrogating people about somebody it probably means that I'm scumreading them, though.

Good to know.

[tictac]

@ Plot
Are you timing me?

[tictac]

Cause I'm pretty sure we know each other from another forum and also pretty sure you know from spectating 1610.
Was wondering if you were seeing how long it would take me to recognize you

[tictac]

@Plot which posts by Kuroi before post 85 look like scumhunting to you?

[tictac]

oh gosh it's you! hi! if you're the person I think you are, you changed my wincon after my faction won 7p LYLO, and then they went on to win without me. Did I guess right?

Yep

Not entirely sure I buy that you didn't know before this thou..
You are a pretty detailed reader and the game I described was pretty distinctive.

I'm happy to see you!

The feeling is mutual

When did you figure out I was me?

Yesterday when I was fact-checking 249.
Took me a while to decide what to do with the info.

[tictac]

If I did notice back then, I forgot about since, but I don't think I would have forgotten that sort of thing and I think I would have said something to you at the time in the post game commentary instead of focusing just on the scumteam.

That's why I am not currently voting for you.

I'd had a newbie buddy in the scumgame I was playing in at the time and I just bussed him and I'd felt bad about it.

Are you bussing now?

I think also that I would have greeted you a little more enthusiastically here if I'd known.

I may have a bit of an ego, but I figured you might be a bit nervous about me if scum.

I reskimmed your ISO and I didn't see that you mentioned that game other than your first post?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6906606
Suspected SpaceCoyote of being from the other forum

[tictac]

Another reason to think you're town is the ongoing statistics for the daytalk trial in newbie games: before the start of the daytalk trial, newbie scum replaced out a lot more often than newbie town did.

Aww. You outed my ace in the hole.
If you'd have gone after me seriously I'd have pretty much known you are scum since you talked in the thread that was talked about.

I agree that it's a bit game-exploity thou.

[tictac]

I should clarify that I haven't actually done much meta reading yet.
First link in that post, noticed you replaced in as scum so checked the mafia-pt.
There was a spoiler called "my scum meta"

How can I not open that?

[tictac]

ugh.
If Kuroi actually believed there are 3 scum...

UNVOTE:
I'm getting paranoid about this.

[tictac]

rask pretty much outed himself by setting that up if it's fake thou.

[tictac]

295.
I doubt he could think there are 3 people in mafia while in mafia.

[tictac]

295.
I doubt he could think there are 3 people in mafia while in mafia.

I don't think Rask said that. But if he did, then it's possible it's a WIFOM situation (I did my research). I don't think there is a whole lot to be gained thinking about it.

I get that you were confused somehow, but I don't get the thought process behind this at all.
What did you think I meant by that?

[tictac]

rask pretty much outed himself by setting that up if it's fake thou.

but I believe I got it.

Yeh. You either catch on fast or knew what the scum were doing.
What is your read on me?

[tictac]

Hello to pignash & Sarg

[tictac]

weak town

Thanks.

The reason I asked is it looks like you spent some effort in figuring out my thought process 303, but you didn't consider the scum POW. At all.
I figure you should be suspecting me of framing you at least a little bit.

Could be naive town or could be someone who knows my wincon for sure. Looks like you aren't naive town.

VOTE: Rask

[tictac]

UNVOTE:
meh. Kinda like that response.

[tictac]

UNVOTE:
meh. Kinda like that response.

Take that back.
-says he wants to concentrate on things that matter.
-yet he is building conspiracy theories about Plot while saying it would be stupid to lynch Plot.
-almost everything in 213

+I'd be lying if I said that strong townread Kuroi has on him and Rasks

very

clearly stated indifference to the Kuroi wagon isn't a factor.
VOTE: Rask

[tictac]

First of all it's actually important to outline that conspiracy theory, because the unlikelyness of it actually supports the townread.

Not buying it.

"+I'd be lying if I said that strong townread Kuroi has on him and Rasks very clearly stated indifference to the Kuroi wagon isn't a factor."
Questioning the one thing you actually like about me is probably retarded but I want to know why what you say here would be an alignment indicative thing.

Oh,I was very unclear there. Shouldn't have used a plus sign.
It just signifies a point that is very probably crap, but I just can't let go of it.

I'm reading Kuroi as very scummy indeed, but also finding the slip believable. I must be mistaken about one of those.
In order of the slip to be faked, you would almost have to be his partner.
Thus I am finding myself paying attention to things that tie you to Kuroi. The more I find, the more I read you two as a single scummy unit.
1 day associatives are crap, but I'm not finding another way to resolve the conflict.

[tictac]

I saw a couple things that look like they could indicate private coaching, some of his posts don't seem to match the gamestate

How does that indicate coaching?

Jake probably would have been willing to policy lynch him,

Policy lynch based on what? Not seeing it.

[tictac]

Welcome camn
Kinda agree with PC in 359, but I like that you posted while drunk.

[tictac]

@Plot Thoughts on 360?

[tictac]

@ Kuroi
If you put a post number between

Code: Select all

[post]

and

Code: Select all

[/post]

it creates a link to that post.

You could make my life way easier by using the feature.

I do like that you are putting effort into this.

[tictac]

Ungh at that franksa wagon.
I agree with Plot about him. Do not lynch.
Fervor like his Plot case not easy to fake.

Liked Sarge asking about the camn slot but he and PC did lose points for this.

@Rask I do have non-associative stuff on you. Making a giant wall, but it takes time.

[tictac]

meant to say

Sarg

[tictac]

Screw it. I'm just posting what I have so far.

Okay now I'm triggered. I guess people are happy with joke reasons other none? I really fail to see how anyone could make a serious vote at that extremely early part of the game, but ok.

@Jake I think I now understand a bit why you dislike rvs.

I'm probably over-defensive right now, but the logic or lack thereof I'm seeing actually makes me mad. Reads will be in next post, hopefully in a few minutes.

Frustration with RVS is a scumtell.

PhantomCobalt (SE) - There's almost no content in his four (4) posts, and given he is clearly active I want to see some. Slight scumread until I see him post reads.

Anticipates townreading a scumread. Tells me that it's not genuine.

Slight Townread

KuroiXHF - This may seem counter intuitive but his early FoS waving reads more to me like an eager town than a mafia sowing discontent.

Defends Kuroi.
"read

s

". 34 ("FOS people who haven't posted") can't be called a 'read' by any stretch of imagination since everybody had in fact posted.

On an unrelated note I'm excited the pace of this game is picking up.

The game was actually pretty slow from town POW at that point. Being scum is more exciting.

Preview-edit: Plotinus answered my question well, though I have him on the list above for completely different reasons, so I won't change it right now.

Again, anticipating changing ones mind weakens a read considerably.

Plotinus has a good chance to change my mind about him come his read(s), though either way it's a good thing to ask for some from him, as if I do find him townish his reads will probably actually be decent.

anticipate townread on scumread.

I don't have hope for PhantomCobalt though. Even if town his posts are extremely low value (ISO and you'll see).

Focus on "low value" rather than "scum".

From what I can tell, he suspects two people. Firstly me, (the post after I read him as slightly scum) for going too hard too early.
Secondly Franksa for no reason given, again right after Franksa read him as slightly scum. ^{Also as Franksa declares V/LA, though that is less significant}

I don't believe Rask wouldn't recognize a gambit.

PhantomCobalt, you're driving me crazy.
I don't understand why you're asking for his role PM at this time.
I don't understand why you have a vote on me despite "slightly town-reading" me.
I don't understand why you want yet more posts from me when one of my posts has more content than all of yours put together.
I don't understand why you want to let "active players drag you us out of this hell" when you are clearly active yourself.

Can you at least give a real reason for your read(s). Not to defend franksa but even the slightest reason would be better than nothing; if all else fails and you say its gut/intuition that at least gives what you say some value.

focus on "low value"

How convenient that you scumread the people who first suspected you, right afterwards too.

At this point I am very convinced of his guiltiness: how his behaviour changed when accused (ISO him) gives me a panicked-scum vibe from him.

121 states clear scumread on PC(despite repeatedly. Immediately softens it in 122.
Before 121 repeatedly referred to PC as 'low value'.

(talking about PC)
Honestly I'm having trouble arguing with you because it would mean to some extent understanding your position, but none of it makes sense at all. There's no consistency, nothing to even follow.

Incoherence isn't a reason to scumread somebody and PC isn't incoherent.

You still haven't given actual, good reasons for why you think people are scum, apart from vague one liners in my case

Reluctance to be seen as defending somebody is actually a pretty good scumtell, for this point in the game.
I see no attempt to understand where PC is coming from.

Even if your read(s) were accurate (obviously not on me, but its possible on franksa), with terrible or no reasoning as you have its essentially worthless. I hope for your sake you are mafia (I'm fairly confident), because as town play this dodgy would be inexcusable.

Again, "low value".

@Raskol why do you assume that I was scum-reading frank when I asked him if he was mafia?

Seriously? If you can't see even see why someone would make that assumption, I'm done arguing with you.

"Done arguing" with a scumread? Why not probe him some?
PCs reason for that question is clear if one just looks. Rask didn't.

PhantomCobalt on the other hand is obvscum. Like "would actual scum be that obvious?" obvious.

Really doesn't jive with repeated reference to Phantom possibly being badtown.

With his less-than-stellar defence I don't see a reason to change wagon for now. Even if he is town (<30% chance imo), at this point I think the faulty reasoning he has shown, in later days would be detrimental to town anyways.

More hedging bets.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jake

I see a lot of defending others and third-party(indirect) interaction from you, but not one significant effort to actually find/pressure a scum. If you have a scumread you sure aren't doing anything with it.
OK it doesn't mean you are scum but nonetheless I want you more involved. It seems to me like you've just been playing safe and making friends so far.

This is essentially a policy vote on Jake for low participation, despite supposedly having a scumread on PC.
Careful to say he isn't scumreading Jake while voting him.

As for this franksa wagon,(snip)
But I like his reaction. If he is mafia he certainly isn't giving it away. I don't think lynching him is a good idea at this point.

Sheep Jake on franksas reaction being non-scummy. Was reluctant to give such view prior to this.
Vote on Jake & agreement with him in the same post. This is in conflict with saying he townred Kuroi for thought-sync.233

Atm he's(PC) the only person I'm scum reading but it isn't strong enough to put him at l-1 (I guess with you unvoting he's not l-2 anymore)

Alright, you've satisfied me. I just wanted to know if you really scumread PC or just found his case for franksa bad (not necessarily the same thing).

Reason for the Jake-vote changed from 131. Was "I want you more involved" prior to this. Unvotes,based on this new reason.

Intent to vote: Franksa

Okay, this is really difficult. I really don't like PC's play because I find it gimmicky and relies on gambits. Attempting to draw out scum through making them emotional, but in doing so he looks terrible himself.

Sees town motivation behind PC, yet 'intent to vote' for being scummy looking.

I did meta him and I found he did this as both alignments though.

Despite knowing PC looks that way in both alignments.

(snip)Plotinus's latest objectively fantastic posts.

Buddy, buddy.

I was confident PC was scum and so didn't assign much weight to what he was saying.

He really didn't sound confident about that with the constant reference to PC being badtown instead.

Here's why it's really tempting though: the results that would come of it. Franksa lynched flipping scum would essentially confirm PC as town (99%), and for the most part Plotinus (~70%).

Info-lynching is a really bad idea.

On the other hand if PC flips scum I'd probably be lost as to who it town or scumfirms .

Here's why info-lynches are a bad idea. (I think he meant to say 'town')

(it would make me look good but that's only useful for everyone but me)

LAMIST usually isn't scummy to me, but it is when it's hidden like this.(I see no reason to say this except to look town)

Why is this important? I'm scumreading both of them but one of them must be town, and I'd rather go for the bigger upside, as well as the case I'm probably less biased about. If franksa is actually town I'll be almost certain PC is scum, though. If the 2 people I find scummiest are both town that would be absurd.

Cases on both PC & franksa were weak. Both of then flipping town is by no means absurd.
Smells like chaining mislynches. The retraction in 218 does soften this point thou, but could be caused by his partner telling him not to do the obvscum thing.

So I intend to vote Franksa. I don't want to put him to L-1 right now though as I don't trust people not to quickhammer.

Why not?

If someone else puts him to L-1, let this be known as an Intent to Hammer.

Intent to hammer while avoiding responsibility.
This is just horrible and I don't believe Rask would be this bad as town.

@Franksa would like a role reveal (soft would probably be enough at this time)

Also horrible. Rolefishing is the only reason I can see for this.

PC is probably town even if franksa is town as well.

Retracts the scummy point, then directs attention to Plotinus instead (while saying Plot shouldn't be lynched).

I'm increasingly suspecting plotinus instead. A wagon on him would be stupid today,

Saying this makes all the conspiracy-stuff just noise.(possible distancing)

but that's probably where I'll start if franksa flips town. I don't know if it's worthwhile talking about my reasons for distrusting plotinus right now

Only if you want to lynch them.

(snip a huge bit about Plot being scum because he looks town)
It's overthinking, reaching too far I know, but it bothers me. In the hope of quelling this paranoia I want to know how PC sees Plotinus at this point in time. PC is probably town (since it's become apparent what he actually did thanks to Plotinus), and I think you get more of a read when you are more involved with the person, and I think being on the same case and then getting read directly by Plotinus should give PC a fairly good impression.

That's a lot of words to ask for a read.
Comes across as really timid.

(if Plot is actually scum franksa is surely town).

Why? Scum!Plot is capable of making a strong case on franksa. Plots case was weak. Might be a soft-bus, especially with the unvote.

I don't like the interaction with Kuroi; I think its bad for him to criticize Kuroi's response as being quick to emotion when Franksa later reacts similarly to Phantomcobalt.

A fallacy, but a common one. Town can do scummy things and it doesn't make a scummy thing less scummy.

The other thing I don't like is his response to Plotinus: I feel he deliberately misinterpreted what Plotinus meant by "not every post in his ISO is scummy, but that's rarely the case"

fair point.

(on PC)He should read the results of his test well considering he is a player to use such things

Now he's reading PC as competent? I actually agree(for a given value of competent), but not really buying that he does.

If franksa is town I expect the wagon on him to be bolstered by at least 1 mafia. As it is, there is PC (I think probtown), formerly Plotinus (probtown unless my conspiracy theory is correct), me (Town), and Maxspir, who gave no comment with his vote, which I think mafia wouldn't have the balls to do. In other words I think the people who are/were on the wagon is too townish, which makes Franksa look bad

That's 3 pretty solid townreads if he's willing to bet on all of them being correct.

Now maybe Plotinus (or Jake) will come tomorrow and blow my mind with whatever he'll do next,

Buddy,buddy.

I'm not sure what it's called but I think it was a fallacy or bias of some sort to look too hard within the thing you've seen more of; even if someone is scummy there is no reason to believe the guy away would not be more scummy if he was here.

Could be defense of a buddy who is also active. Daytalk is a pretty good reason to expect both scum in the active crowd.

I expect a scum within [Franksa, Plotinus]

Why?

Because I suspect Franksa and if it isn't Franksa there is a small chance it is Plotinus (as per conspiracy theory 213).

Townflip on franksa would make Plot only slightly more likely to be scum so this is illogic. I believe rask is logical, so things like this sound like deliberate twisting of words.

Mostly its PoE though

Pretty early for POE, but plausible.

More active players (I expect 1 scum here)
PC, Plotinus, Franksa, Kuroi, Me
Less active (I expect the other scum in here)
Max, Jake, Convergent

Not much to say about this group. tictac I'm not assigning as either active/inactive since his slot replaced out, which I consider different from normal inactivity, but he's townlean to me so it doesn't matter either way.

It does matter if you are doing POE based off that.
Especially with only a lean on me. Again, I think you know I'm town.
Or you are bad at logic. Which I don't think you are.

Ending the day with substantial amount of time still on the clock is widely considered a scumclaim.

You're implying that's what I wanted to do, which is wrong.

I very carefully avoided saying

I

was scumreading him based on that and he reacted as if to an accusation. weak sign of quilty conscience.

That's a clear misinterpretation of what I said. Context is important. The very reason I didn't even vote him but said I intend to in future is because I didn't want someone quicklynching and ending the day. I said this in that very post. Basically the point I was trying to get across was that

I support the wagon

and would have voted had he not been L-2 at the time, so for that moment I would have a sort of have a ghost-vote with letting my intention be known.

Very convoluted way of saying "I support this wagon". I believe he would have said "I support this wagon" is that is what he meant.

I didn't want to be non-committal

Intentionally not giving scumtells is a scumtell.

and I (obviously) trust my judgement not to quicklynch but I can see how that looks bad.

It does.

I thought I'd mention I'm okay with or perhaps indifferent with the Kuroi wagon.

You shouldn't be if you have any scum-reads at all.
Comes across as not really caring where the lynch lands as long as it isn't on you.
(also Rask-Kuroi associative, but that is weak on day 1)

he showed depth of thought and similar pov as I did early

How did he show depth of thought? "FOS non-existing people?",

but I think staying on PC even now is way too stubborn. (snip) I think a town would be more desperate to do stuff even if its risky and less willing to sit on a rather safe sort of dead wagon.

Fair point, but I don't see a vote on Kuroi.
You chose to advice him on how to look less like scum instead of scumreading him for scummy behaviour.

Oh yeah, after seeing the vc post: since max was inactive clearly before the logic was mentioned, I suppose he gets the same slight benefit upon replacing that tictac would?

Arguing for town-points for max, towny. (note possible associative for future thou)

Rask and Jake come across strongly town, you're kind of in the middle, and most others aren't making contributions.

Can you explain because I'm

seeing a massive contradiction here

.

Still not seeing a vote.

(@kuroi)
Minor nitpick(snip)Read about the Matrix6 setup.

You guys know what I think about this.

I'll explain for the benefit of others.

Catches on quickly on what I was trying to say.
Spent some effort in this (or knew)
- Takes things that may implicate him very seriously.
- Didn't consider I might be scum trying to frame him. I don't believe that he did and excluded that because wanted to avoid drama because he is definitely not avoiding unnecessary drama when it comes to Plot.

[tictac]

Ungh. Correction: 213 'intent to vote' wasn't on PC but on franksa.
So only scumread PC based on reasons he knew were bad and didn't intend to vote there.
Rest of it applies thou.

[tictac]

@Sarg
Join me on rask then.
franksa is obvtown.

[tictac]

Hate info-lynching, but whatever rocks your boat.

[tictac]

I find Plots flip on frank believable.
Either town or emulating themselves-as-town.

[tictac]

More worried about the second part.

Well yeah.
Does mean that townflip on frank would give me almost no info on Plot thou.

[tictac]

@PC
Why not?

[tictac]

So you just wanted him to claim?

[tictac]

Seriously considering a PC lynch now.

[tictac]

nope
VOTE: Sarge

I am un-playing PCs awful play.
Forcing more than 1 claim/day is INANE.

[tictac]

oops
VOTE: Sarg

[tictac]

This is not new behaviour for him. Explain better.

[tictac]

Dammit sarge. I was measuring PCs willingness to defend a strong townread ;/

VOTE: PC

[tictac]

He did have an half hour to come up with something better than "he was calm"
I think he would have if town.

[tictac]

eh.
VOTE: Rask

[tictac]

Now willing to go for PC too if that gathers steam.

[tictac]

Now willing to go for PC too if that gathers steam.

There's only 2 scum in this setup fyi, don't worry you weren't the first to think their was 3

I could still be wrong about rask-kuroi.

[tictac]

@PC did you meta Sarge?

[tictac]

I'd really like to know what you got from Sarge being under the hammer that you didn't get from him otherwise.

[tictac]

That a scumclaim?

[tictac]

VOTE: PC
Yeah. This is where I want to be.

[tictac]

Describe the reaction.

[tictac]

If it's unclear to anyone: I think PC was in that wagon only to get a claim.

[tictac]

That's why I chose the avatar.

[tictac]

I like to think so.

Now: Tell me what reaction you got from Sarge that was worth having him claim.

[tictac]

k.
I think you'll get lynched then.

[tictac]

I don't think it is. What you did really wasn't subtle.
I could be wrong of course.

@Everyone: What do you think about this?

[tictac]

I'd like to note the very hasty retraction in 480.
I think he noticed he scum-slipped.

[tictac]

@Rask you came up with that really, really,

really

fast.
Apparently in response to this situation.

Will definitely look into you if PC flips scum.

pedit: yeah. it really is.

[tictac]

@Rask
How did you choose witch games to read?
Do you have similar meta on other players?

[tictac]

@Rask
How did you choose witch games to read?
Do you have similar meta on other players?

1 - went through his posts, ignored the unfinished, open and blitz games, and tried to get a sample of both town and scum. I remember dropping one because he replaced in d3 into a winning game and said almost nothing, and I think another one for similar.
2 - Nothing so thorough. I resort to this if I have difficulty reading them normally, the only other person I tried this on was Plotinus earlier in the game. It didn't help.

Looking at 1632 now.
I think he said plenty. He was nightkilled, so probably didn't play that bad. Haven't read it much thou.
I

wonder

why this one wasn't on your list.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=62779

[tictac]

Although you seem to care more about me than him anyways, even with these questions.

I can get coherent answers from you. I can't get any from him.

I question your attempts to actually read me based on how I meta'd someone, and your overeagerness in trying to find scumpairs day 1.

That's fine. If you actually did meta on PC I'll apologize after the game.
With the timing of you publishing your links and the conspicuous omission of the game that didn't fit the narrative you were conveying, I really do think it much more likely that PC gave those links to you thou.

[tictac]

Do what? Give you links and tell you what happened in each one?

[tictac]

I don't think PC would be nearly a good enough player to do that without messing it up horrendously.

I am actually the best mafia player this game has ever seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jvgbe9Kx0U

[tictac]

Unless ye'r going for rask.
In which case ok.

[tictac]

@tictac there are some posts of Rasks that are antitown but i can't figure out how to talk about them because if he's town after all then scum might not have noticed.

Think I

propably

know what you mean. Don't really remember rask doing that. need to reread I guess.

I think you are trying to do what I tried in that game thou. Didn't work for me there much. MS might be different granted.
Space had a saying about the kind of scum he liked to go after.

This code is fun, but I don't really see the need as I hardly need more reasons to vote for rask.

[tictac]

@Sarge what made you think PC meta'd you?

[tictac]

Can anyone see how scum could have known Rask was the cop?
Cause I'm really failing to see how they could have.

And if they didn't then I really don't see how Kuroi can still be both town and alive with the way he was going on about cops yesterday.

[tictac]

@Sarg
What's your view on camn?
What info did you get from Rask flip?

[tictac]

@Kuroi
You seem to be scumreading Plot for going after Rask when you townread me pretty hard for the same thing earlier.
Why?

[tictac]

@pignash
Yeah. I wagoned both Rask & PC, means my reads are kind of crap. sorry for seeking input to solidify current ones.

Also: I wanted to see if Sarg would include that Plot thing in his camn read, so thanks for ruining that :/
Good question thou.

[tictac]

@Sarge what made you think PC meta'd you?

What are you referring to here?

466

[tictac]

...not 100% sure everyone knows it's not night anymore...

Why?

[tictac]

@Sarge what made you think PC meta'd you?

What are you referring to here?

466

Oh, that was jokey, since PC seemed to know how I am and how i respond to things.

It's a weird thought. How does your mind go to "meta" and not "he's reading what I'm writing"?

Comes across as self-defense cause PC was townreading you for being calm and 'meta' implies this is a good reason to townread you.
It isn't, cause you have no meta of being significantly wagoned while scum.(not counting the time you were copped)

rest of that post:

Listen, you're voting against me based on what case? Points that I've already shot down and points that are trying to misconstrue my words to fit their own agenda?
You really have no reason.

I'm okay with straight-up defense.

There's Mafia on this wagon. Easy. And if it goes through, after my flip, you should have no problems finding them.

Repeating this here, when you said the same thing just a bit earlier is self-defend-by-LAMIST and comes across as manipulative.

[tictac]

VOTE: pignash L-3

Why?

[tictac]

@Plot That does make me feel better about you. I did note that you seemed kinda aimless during day 1.
I'll note for others that RL-difficulty isn't a thing Plot lies about as either align.

Pig-push looks ok and I do like you having a direction of your own.
I think he's town thou, cause poked at me when pretty much nobody has + some thought-sync.

[tictac]

k.
VOTE: Sarg

Don't skip questions Sarg.

What info did you get from Rask flip?
How does your brain go to "meta" and not "he's reading what I'm writing?

[tictac]

Is this what you meant, tictac, for going after Rask?

Are you for real?
405 and what follows is what I mean.

I'll quote rask:

(not to mention I have been a little bit fearing for life after tictac made his case on me).

[tictac]

@Sarg
Join me on rask then.
franksa is obvtown.

eh.
VOTE: Rask

@Kuroi
How old are you?

[tictac]

snip

I did look to me like ya missed a page when ya said my push was light. I find the thought kind of offensive to be honest.
And no, pushing Rask doesn't in any way implicate me, cause pushing a scumread is in no way scummy.

I was kinda worried I might be scumreading a kid for acting like a kid. But, yeah. Let's call it a non-indicator. Ya do seem articulate enough.

VOTE: Kuroi
Cause townies don't skip pages. I don't believe the opinion on 405 is a genuine one.

[tictac]

Cause townies don't skip pages.

Really? Why do you think this was more likely to be on purpose than by accident?

1) I think townies analyse posts a lot more. Scum just needs to get somebody lynched. They don't need to worry about aiming correctly.
2) Reaching for reasons to townread me. He'd want to be on my good side because I bought the 'newbtown slip'
I currently think that is the reason Rask was killed. So I'd consider Kuroi cleared.
But a nightkill doesn't yeld correct obvtown.
I think he stumbled onto the tell cause Rask corrected him about the likelihood of cop existing (from town POW) and needed a quick reason why he thought one did.
He even commented: "I really wish I was mafia with an elaborate plan."

About Kurois cop thing being a scumslip: Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he was fake-crumbing.

If I'm cop and have a guilty read on you, I'll call you scum. If I catch you in a law in a way that proves your mafia-ness, I'll call you scum. If you're giving me scum vibes, I'll call you scummy.

Here he is talking about how he would crumb his results as a cop.

@Plotinus I think it's tictac. Buddying a lot and he's not put nearly as much effort in this day phase.

Why address this to Plot?
Buddying: links please? I actually think I have been kinda irate this game.
Effort: Do I need to quote goodmorning to ya? I agree that I have been less active. That is going to continue for a bit I'm afraid. Opening night coming up, so my schedule is more full than normal.

[tictac]

Well, Sarge just took a dip by calling camns thing stupid.
It isn't. Just cause something

can

be a coincidence doesn't mean it

is

. Calling something a coincidence doesn't make it more likely to be a coincidence.
Evidence doesn't mean proof.

I think town!Sarge would be evaluating charges made against him instead of dismissing them.

Not voting there yet thou.
I should have time to get into this properly tomorrow.

[tictac]

I think town!Sarge would be evaluating charges made against him instead of dismissing them.

I have evaluating it. It evaluated to being a stupid claim. Dismissing would be ignoring any questions he's asking me and not answering to it.

I wasn't talking about answering or not answering questions there. (thou I am generally in favour of answering questions)

I was talking about seeing how things look from camns POW. Trying to understand the charge. Does the accusation make sense from town POW? Is it more likely to come from scum?
I don't think you tried to do that or you wouldn't be thinking it was stupid.

Your post 316 was a virtual clone of 314 by pignash.
Question: Are you saying you were before now UNAWARE of this?

That the similarities are coincidence?

Considering I was writing mine at the same time as his judging by the timestamps,

that is what I'm saying.

(bolded for clarity)

Bolded to what I was actually responding to. As I've said multiple times that you just seem to want to ignore.

Now, that actually is an argument against (part of) camns charge. Can you link to where you said it before, cause I'm not seeing it on your ISO?
Why answer one question and not the other?

[tictac]

On day 1 he was the one who said Kuroi cant be a cop, him mentioning the existence of a cop was actually a townslip in Sarg's eyes. That would explain why didnt Kuroi die last night if Sarg is scum.

Why would scum avoid killing a townie who they think looks towny?

[tictac]

Uh, no. I don't know if you think I'm cop and you're still hung up on that issue, but let it go. I never claimed that and it was proven that Rask was cop. Let it go.

I'll do a proper thing on Kuroi later, but things like this are why I still think Kuroi is a better candidate than Sarge.
He is very articulate (indication of intelligence), chooses to play mafia in his spare time(another one)
Uses words like 'strawman' and 'sane cop' proficiently. Told us he has previous experience with mafia.

He is clearly intelligent, so it is not believable

at all

that he would fail to see how heavily implying he was a cop yesterday looks

kind of suspicious

when we now know he isn't.

[tictac]

These two are why I'm voting you. Really stuck out on a reread.

Plot mentions some of Rasks posts being anti town (crumbing cop?) and tictac says he probably knows what they mean. Then he posts something about his homesite to talk to plot in code (hate that kind of stuff, anti town). I glossed past this in the first readthrough because I didn't know what it meant. I think now it means that tictac sees some PR stink on rask.

Here is my part of the code.
"Think I

propably

know what you mean. Don't really remember rask doing that. need to reread I guess."
The code is a bit confusing, but you seem to think Rask was PR hunting. I don't remember him doing that.
(I guess he could have meant crumbing instead, but why would Plot point that out to me in the context of reasons to scumread Rask? I don't see a reason. Also, they later said they don't think Rask crumbed. I don't either.)
Why do you think my post meant I was PR reading rask?

"I think you are trying to do what I tried in that game thou. Didn't work for me there much. "
What I did there was talking in code, cause I figured I might be seeing something scum didn't see. Almost got lynched for it too.
Turned out that scum saw the same things and the message didn't arrive where it was supposed to, so it was all for nothing.
So this is me going "not sure this code thing is a good idea"

"MS might be different granted."
Then again in my first game here(the one Plot read) I spotted the cop and the scum didn't, so was possible Plot saw something the scum didn't.

"Space had a saying about the kind of scum he liked to go after."
That is actually from the MS game.
SpaceCoyote was all about not underestimating scum, so this is me saying "It's best not to underestimate scum"

"This code is fun, but I don't really see the need as I hardly need more reasons to vote for rask."
Means exactly what I wrote.

Can anyone see how scum could have known Rask was the cop?
Cause I'm really failing to see how they could have.

And if they didn't then I really don't see how Kuroi can still be both town and alive with the way he was going on about cops yesterday.

And then this right when the day starts to distance himself from the kill. Pinged when I read the first time. Flashing red lights when I read it now.

VOTE: tictac

Answered that on 590

[tictac]

I don't find that answer satisfactory.

That is fine. Do ask questions if you want more thou.
Why did your reason to scumread me change from 643 to 661?
Do you have more scumreads?

[tictac]

On Kuroi:

He is way more competent he is pretending to be:
23,29, 43, 281 good insight into mafia.

41 "I've been in games that have turned to anger"
It is not that common an occurance, so this indicates that he has played more than a few.
"unless you know my normal personality"
Indication that this is

not

his normal personality.
49 evidence that he is capable of seeing things form others POW.
57 "any of the places I played mafia" do note place

s

.
148 "all we need are the right words and context to be more innocent than Virgin Mary." He is confident in his ability to appear townish.
171 Joke about how scum like to go for townpoints.
198 ability to see nuance
211 "when you're secretive and appear to have a grudge, it shouldn't surprise when votes go your way."
375 "Not exactly sure how I reacted poorly to PC's vote against me. I reacted with proof, not emotion. I'm also difficult to profile."
Still confident in ability to appear town. Concious of his own properties as a player indicates more than a few games.
381 easily grasped the use of code tags.

Knowledge of mafia vocabulary:
117 "Knowing that we don't have a fool/jester role"
159 "unless he is here but actively lurking."
Just how does one know about active lurking and still employ the 'scumhunting' criteria he is employing here?
215 "lurking"
247 correctly recocnized I was accusing him of strawmanning. Then continued to do so. (strawmen are not a debate tactic I expect from town btw. My response:257)
375 "I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying "He's too scummy to be Mafia." You've entered into a WIFOM and I don't think you know that."

Not

a kid
83 "my fiancee"

His verbosity level is all over his ISO


Clear indications of not reading:
34,418,598,600
Overwhelming focus on presentation instead of understanding the game.
Very scummy indeed.


cop crumbing:
48: That one could have been just him thinking a cop existed, but would also lend credibility to a fakeclaim later.
211:" If I'm cop and have a guilty read on you, I'll call you scum. If I catch you in a law in a way that proves your mafia-ness, I'll call you scum. If you're giving me scum vibes, I'll call you scummy."
Givesprotocol for crumbing results. May be hoping the actual cop picks it up and will be easier to spot. May be laying croundwork for a fakeclaim later.

283:"And I'm all for doing more than just waiting for

cop to do our jobs

for us. I'm sure I could be doing a better job, just like everyone else can seeing as perfection is always sought after, but never reached. Still, with that being said, I don't think I'm on the list of people who aren't doing their job."
Saying he is not on the list of people who aren't doing their jobs while talking about people waiting for the cop to do their job.
He is

clearly

implying he is the cop here. While under pressure. It's a self-defense tactic.


General scummy things:
202 Flipped his opinion on Plot when he was suspected of buddying Plot.
289 vote on frank despite expressing a townread in 253 ("I have a gut feeling that he's a townie that screwed up big time")
338 call self "Schrodinger's Scum"
350 weird townread of me for going after Rask. He didn't feel compelled to FOI anyone else. I think it's because I bought the "towntell"
360 grab for easy townpoints. (btw. @Plot that really should have looked like a countdown clock to ya)
365 replacements come in and he is suddenly into analysis. Makes me think his partner can be found in [Sarg,Pig,camn]
Grades on competence instead of likelyhood of being scum.
A+ for me despite writing very little about me. What he did write doesn't match the grade.
A for rask and "NOW QUIT BUDDYING UP WITH ME!" conflict.
self grades B. So less sure he is town than me&Rask&Jake? A clear indication that these are not scumreads.
381 PC said "I think a Sarg lynch would give us less information than a camn flip, even if Sarg does flip scum." and Kuroi agreed. How exactly does a scum flip give us less info than unknown camn flip??
598 backs down from his read on me under pressure. Further evidence that it was fake.

+

so much

buddying I'm not gonna bother collecting it.

[tictac]

Hmm.

When I first read through Kuroi, I though he was just an offsite newb assuming there would be a cop in play.. 211 was meh for me as a crumb.. but seeing them all together like this is a little more compelling.
Tictac- who would you like for Kuroi's partner?

Currently:
Sarg (entered the game defending Kuroi)
Then pignash (current push on me could be a chainsaw)
Then you for also being a replace around the time 365 happened

[tictac]

@ pig What about 551 made you think I was PR-reading Rask?
@ Sarg Link to where you said the thing before.(660)

Come on people, don't skip questions.

[tictac]

I'll get to the other ones soon. Believe me, Plot - I haven't forgotten about you.

On Kuroi:

He is way more competent he is pretending to be:
23,29, 43, 281 good insight into mafia.

41 "I've been in games that have turned to anger"
It is not that common an occurance, so this indicates that he has played more than a few.
"unless you know my normal personality"
Indication that this is

not

his normal personality.

Not even an indication. I was speaking hypothetically.

I'm sure you'd like us to think so.

49 evidence that he is capable of seeing things form others POW.
57 "any of the places I played mafia" do note place

s

.
148 "all we need are the right words and context to be more innocent than Virgin Mary." He is confident in his ability to appear townish.

I'm not THAT confident.

Ya shouldn't be

171 Joke about how scum like to go for townpoints.
198 ability to see nuance
211 "when you're secretive and appear to have a grudge, it shouldn't surprise when votes go your way."
375 "Not exactly sure how I reacted poorly to PC's vote against me. I reacted with proof, not emotion. I'm also difficult to profile."
Still confident in ability to appear town. Concious of his own properties as a player indicates more than a few games.
381 easily grasped the use of code tags.

Plot's correction of my tags disproves that.

Ya should have seen me in my first game here. Ya doing well above average.
I should have said post-tags thou.

Knowledge of mafia vocabulary:
117 "Knowing that we don't have a fool/jester role"
159 "unless he is here but actively lurking."
Just how does one know about active lurking and still employ the 'scumhunting' criteria he is employing here?
215 "lurking"
247 correctly recocnized I was accusing him of strawmanning. Then continued to do so. (strawmen are not a debate tactic I expect from town btw. My response:257)
375 "I'm sorry, but I have a hard time buying "He's too scummy to be Mafia." You've entered into a WIFOM and I don't think you know that."

I never disputed knowing Mafia. I disputed knowing MAFIASCUM Mafia - also Strawmanning is logical fallacies, not exclusive to Mafia.)

I don't think your capability is clear to everyone here, and it's making people townread you when they shouldn't. Plot calling you 'misguided town' for example, and I am sure that is just the most visible instance.
Your play doesn't make any sense whatsoever coming from a competent person who knows mafia.

Not

a kid
83 "my fiancee"

LOL - doesn't necessarily mean I'm not a kid. Kids are getting married and pregnant a lot earlier on. Still, I am an adult... how is this relevant to, eh... anything?

See previous point.

Clear indications of not reading:
34,418,598,600
Overwhelming focus on presentation instead of understanding the game.
Very scummy indeed.

They aren't, but really, I'm not even going to respond to these jokes.

Nice argument.

cop crumbing:
48: That one could have been just him thinking a cop existed, but would also lend credibility to a fakeclaim later.
211:" If I'm cop and have a guilty read on you, I'll call you scum. If I catch you in a law in a way that proves your mafia-ness, I'll call you scum. If you're giving me scum vibes, I'll call you scummy."
Givesprotocol for crumbing results. May be hoping the actual cop picks it up and will be easier to spot. May be laying croundwork for a fakeclaim later.

283:"And I'm all for doing more than just waiting for

cop to do our jobs

for us. I'm sure I could be doing a better job, just like everyone else can seeing as perfection is always sought after, but never reached. Still, with that being said, I don't think I'm on the list of people who aren't doing their job."
Saying he is not on the list of people who aren't doing their jobs while talking about people waiting for the cop to do their job.
He is

clearly

implying he is the cop here. While under pressure. It's a self-defense tactic.

As I said before, I don't know Mafiascum Mafia. This along with another game I'm playing on here are my first games. Vote me if you have nothing on anyone else,

Oh, I do. Not seeing much point in distracting from the main issue, which is you thou.

but if you can't differentiate between someone's first mafia game and someone's first mafiascum game, then I don't know how to help you.

I can indeed. This is only my 3rd game here. Thus I know that a lot of the skills are transferrable.

I've never played with a rubric, "We have X out of Y roles in this game," and most games I've been in had a cop role and seeing as how it was mentioned, it seemed like a great fit. Notice, we DID have a cop in this game.

I did notice that. This is not a point in your favor.

General scummy things:
202 Flipped his opinion on Plot when he was suspected of buddying Plot.

Awesome accusation. What did I flip ON? I've always thought his neuroanalyzing was too overbearing.

Ya called them annoying when you were all buddy-buddy with them before that. We have been over this and I do not believe you don't remember.

289 vote on frank despite expressing a townread in 253 ("I have a gut feeling that he's a townie that screwed up big time")

Franksa was incredibly scummy, Plot wasn't gaining traction and I feared we were going into Night One without a lynch.

You went from gut town to incredibly scummy. In that time frank had but a single post and that was an announcement that he was mid-flight. You did comment on frank in 287. What bout franks admission was so incredibly scummy?

338 call self "Schrodinger's Scum"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/joke?s=t

A joke that is more likely to occur to someone thinking from a scum perspective is a scummy joke.

350 weird townread of me for going after Rask. He didn't feel compelled to FOI anyone else. I think it's because I bought the "towntell"
360 grab for easy townpoints. (btw. @Plot that really should have looked like a countdown clock to ya)

And are you complaining about writing out who replaced who?

That is indeed what I am complaining about.It is an easy and non-risky way to appear useful.

365 replacements come in and he is suddenly into analysis. Makes me think his partner can be found in [Sarg,Pig,camn]

Damn it, you caught me. I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for that mint-flavored small cookie-dough-packaged hard candy.

That is not an argument.

Grades on competence instead of likelyhood of being scum.

Because anything other than color-coded is scummy.

When you say something is a reads-list and it clearly isn't. You are just trying to appear like you have reads,

A+ for me despite writing very little about me. What he did write doesn't match the grade.

You didn't do much for me that I felt were scummy.

Ye said: "- Didn't like #227. I think I already responded to that post. (Also didn't like 228)"

A for rask and "NOW QUIT BUDDYING UP WITH ME!" conflict.
self grades B. So less sure he is town than me&Rask&Jake? A clear indication that these are not scumreads.
381 PC said "I think a Sarg lynch would give us less information than a camn flip, even if Sarg does flip scum." and Kuroi agreed. How exactly does a scum flip give us less info than unknown camn flip??

I notice you didn't address this

598 backs down from his read on me under pressure. Further evidence that it was fake.

I'm sorry, back down from what? I keep telling you that the cop deal you're under is misguided. Now it's to the point of ridiculousness.

Back down from yer townread on me. I 'went down a grade', remember?
How do you expect us to believe your reads are real if ye don't keep track of what you are pretending them to be?

[tictac]

@tictac the first line saying you probably know what they mean. I think you play it off but then you start going for the lynch and then kill him at night anyway. That's my theory.

That's a weird theory cause my main push on Rask was before that post.
Also doesn't hold water unless you think Rask crumbed in a way I would spot.

Read on Plot?

[tictac]

K then.
This is LYLO. That means any single town on town vote risks instantly losing(mafia can pile votes on very quickly using daychat).
So please don't vote recklessly. This is a good time to use FOS instead.

[tictac]

@pignash
Why did you feel hammering a secondary scumread with 6 days left on the clock was in any way a good idea?

[tictac]

@camn
I keep reading 705 as you claiming scum with pig. I didn't think that was a thing that could actually happen.
It's possible I'm having a problem with english (my second language)
Do shed some light to your thoughts there.

[tictac]

Also coffee.

So look- I am a little surprised we haven't hit scum yet.
That said, I still am thinking tic-tac is town, which leaves TWO scum in [franksa, pignash, KuroiXHF].

I have sadly seen lurker scum win WAY too many times, which would sit with a franksa/pignash scumteam.
Also, I haven't really checked.. but it seems like the night phases have gone all the way to deadline, which jives with a low-activity scumteam.

I think nights are always supposed to go to deadline? Haven't played in Jackal games before, so not sure how strict he is about it.

Frank has been practically oozing newbtown to me for most of the game.
I really didn't like his reasoning to get on Sarg-wagon thou. When I questioned him about it he added the bit about Sarg VT-reading Kuroi instead of just townreading him(668).

I'm iffy about going for lurk-scum (as sole reasoning) in a daytalk-game. A lot less reason to think scum would use that method to hide.

Pigs hammer seemed very self-defesy to me. Hammering someone who wasn't his prime-suspect just cause Sarg was scumreading him.
Might have been because he feared my Kuroi push would gain momentum and went for the mis-lynch before that could happen. If it's Kuroi-pig, Kuroi has done a pretty decent job of distancing today thou.
Also, I would expect to be dead if Kuroi is scum.

On the other hand, the scumteam seems...efficient? Which maybe opens the door for Kuroiscum, as he at least seems more engaged?

I re-read over the night phase really looking at day 1. I don't think the scumteam hit Rask by chance.. and it was occurring to me YESTERDAY that maybe Plotinus was scum after all, and had seen some sort of soft claim.. but I couldnt really find it. I asked him about it yesterday.. and it seemed more like he was reading Rask as roleFISHING than roleCLAIMING. In any event, Plot is now flipped town, so there goes that idea.

Yeah. Plot-camn was a distinct possibility to me yesterday, from the way day 1 lynch seemed to change direction when PC expressed a scumread of ya. Was overshadowed by Kuroi then, glad that I don't need to worry about that now.

Tictac- you are the only one I have a decent townread on now (although I have been pretty

wrong

this game).. so Ima run some things by you.

1st: Could Kuroi's cop-talk have been HIM rolefishing? And did Rask drop a hint?

1. Yeah, could well be. Especially if a cop had picked up his protocol for crumbing results, would have made him easy to spot by night 2.
2. Not as far as I can see. He did call CC 'VT' thou, which could be seen as a hint, but makes sense in the context of 'why did CC drop out'.

Like this:

And I'm all for doing more than just waiting for cop to do our jobs for us. I'm sure I could be doing a better job, just like everyone else can seeing as perfection is always sought after, but never reached. Still, with that being said, I don't think I'm on the list of people who aren't doing their job.

Minor nitpick but as far as I know cop isn't confirmed to be in our game. Read about the Matrix6 setup.

Ok checked and there are 6 variations and cop is only in 2 of them, so that's a 1/3 chance assuming each variation is equally likely. That's not much.

Maybe this was enough.. and Kuroi read it as "the damsel doth protest too much?"

Bit of a long-shot, but possible.
I'm still thinking that if Kuroi is scum, the purpose was more likely to be to make the 'newbtell' stronger by making Rask confirmed town, than because he knew Rask was a cop.

I don't know if I buy it..
Do you see anything else? i know you were looking into this angle Day 2.

About why Rask was nightkilled?
If frank is scum he would have wanted to spare me & Plot, cause we were both hard-townreading him. Rask was the third most active high-effort player.
Already expressed the Kuroi-scum theory.
Might just be because he had good reads and had conviction in them. He was pretty strongly against PC lynch.

[tictac]

Camn... My strongest scumread. I just realized after we lost 2 more towns, that he has been buddying me since she got replaced in this game. Never went against me, always protected me, never voted on me, etc... I was the first timer who didnt have much time to play, so he sided with me to disappear from my radar. It actually worked, but now that I think about it, its very scummy. Without rereading anything I express a FOS on her. I will have to go through her and pignash's ISOs then hopefully I will be able to say more.

I do agree that camn might be buddying.The townreads on me & Plot were awfully strong, and I'm not sure how I feel about 680. Would a townie really change her mind because I presented the evidence in compact form? Might be agreeing just to get on my good side?
Also didn't like her PC read on day 1, which was pretty much pure dislike-of-playstyle stated as a scumread. Still, as day1 reasons go, it's not that far out there coming from a MS-veteran.

I really like how camn reacted to day 2 being so slow and actually did something about it in 649 thou.
And she did seem like she might be willing to abandon the Sarg push when Sarg gave a valid argument against it in 675, which I judge to be towny. (Bit weaker cause I said it was a valid defense in 666.)

[tictac]

@Kuroi
Why did you change your mind about frank so drastically between 253 and 289?
Why would an unknown camn flip have given more info than a scum-flip on Sarg?(381)

@Pig
What is your reasoning on scumreading me? I gotta say, it doesn't feel like a real scumread currently.
In combination with rushing the lynch so quickly yesterday, You are by far my top suspect currently.
Why think I was scum with Sarg?

[tictac]

Obviously I was wrong about sarg.

Obviously, but I'm still interested in what your reasons for it were.
If you had reasons.

My scum read on you stems from my feeling that you were behind Rasks NK. Gotta go back and read again to see if I'm off or if there's anything else incriminating.

I already refuted the Rask-crumb thing, so not seeing how you could still think that is a reason.

It really feels like you decided to push me first and then looked for reasons.
Possibly because Plot&I indicated pushing me is a way to get townpoints.(post]642[/post])

[tictac]

The townreads on me & Plot were awfully strong

When you know, you know . I have always been better at picking out townies than scum.
You are right about me and Sarg- I really wanted to believe... but he was just so... weirdly inconsistent. I really couldnt understand what he was saying by the end.

Agree with this. I did check his links and he did kind of say the thing in 454. The meaning certainly didn't come though the first couple of times I read it thou.Guy really needs to express himself better.

And trust me, I have caught scum on smaller slips than I was pushing on him. Usually players I know better, but so it goes.

Yeah, me too.
Why were you against pigs semantic argument against Plot in 649 then?

[camn] Never went against me, always protected me, never voted on me, etc...

This is an interesting statment- I don't remember doing any 'protecting' of this slot. If anything, I forgot it existed, which is the problem with lurkers. If I "never went against him", its because there was never any meat to his posts.

Valid.
frank, please link camn defending you.

@tic- I kind of agree we shouldn't go for a straight lurkerlynch on franska today... but the cynic in me says we will never pull an actual CASE on him because of his low volume.. which just reinforces the lurker strategy!
But if we lynch scum today (which we must), and you (tictac) are actually town (as I suspect).. then I think I will certainly be killed tonight. I am the logical next step. That will leave you in 3-player lylo tomorrow- Who would you ideally have sitting there with you?

Answering that would be a pretty optimal way to make certain it doesn't happen
But I don't really know tbh. I just want to lynch scum today and worry about tomorrow tomorrow.
Why are you the next logical step? I kind of like to think it would be me.

[tictac]

@tictac Who can be scum with who?

Good question. Let's see.

Spoiler: camn-Kuroi

8 Kuroi starts game with RVS on Coffee.
43 Kuroi defensive when asked about read on Coffee.
83 Kuroi gives reads, does not include Coffee
159 Kuroi hoping for a replacement for Coffee
240 CC joins Plot wagon (counterwagon to kurois) Gives reasons to vote other people, reasoning on Plot poor. Unvotes Plot after Kurois 'townslip' but does not vote the people she had reasons to vote.
357 camn null-reads Kuroi
412 camn willing to vote PC with Kuroi, slight buddy of Kuroi? Mild point against.
493 & 557 camn and Kuroi both on PC wagon. Both scum on a lynch when neither hammers is unusual. Point against.
595 camn express interest in franks saying Kurois cop-thing is a slip
610 camn accuse Plot of backhanded defense against Kuroi. As a vet camn should see Kurois reasoning as nonsensical, so this is weird.
613 camn defends Kuroi against scumslip allegation. Bit weird she doesn't think 'crumb', before I called it that.
616 camn has an inflated opinion on how much threat Kuroi is under from slip-accusation
621 Kuroi 'tempted to vote' Sarg, but does not. Reluctance to be in same wagon as the partner?
635 Kuroi accepts Sargs (weak)defense and votes Plot instead
649 camn has Kuroi as probtown, but fakecrumb-thing might change her mind. bit fence-sitty.
712 cams starts day apparently willing to consider Kuroi. point against.
715 Kuroi "camn or more likely tictac" point in favour
This team would be going for pig-lynch way more. Would be really easy mislynch from their perspective.
Kuroi sticking with the nonsensical 1 active 1 passive thing makes me believe he might have a reason to think it's accurate and is part of such a team if scum.
camn driving a counterwagon to kuroi?
- Sarg push started on day 1 when no signifigant pressure was on Kuroi.
- FrankTown!frank and town!pig just happened to drive Sarg-wagon to lynch when things looked like they might change direction. Very large piece of luck by scum makes it less likely.

Could be a pair, but not overly likely

Spoiler: camn-frank

56 frank backs down from liking Coffees entry when questioned.
284 CC&frank voted Plot. Would be really ballsy of newbscum-team to be 2 sole votes on IC.
334 frank names CC&Sarg as possible Plot-partners, but not pushing them.
357 camn mildly townreads frank
536 & 557[/post] together on PC lynch.
595 camn attributes the Kuroi scumslip-theory to frank despite franks post being agreement with mine.
649 camn gives reads puts frank in the middle.
690 frank votes with camn again. point against.
723 frank scumreads camn for buddying.
730 camn points out a contradiction in the accusation
camn in going for frank lynch more than pig-lynch on day 3 despite pigs hammer being very scummy. Would not be inclined to do that if scum with frank I think.

Very minimal interactions before day 3, but if day3 stuff is distancing it's very well done

Spoiler: camn-pignash

240 CC accuse Jake of low content, votes Plot instead
302 CC unvotes, does not vote Jake instead.
306 Jake replaces out
332 CC replaces out. Near-simultaneous replace out indicates a

strong associative

.
357 camn nullreads pig but ties him into Sarg scumcase. Scum!camn would know Sarg is town so no risk of actually lynching pig
449 pig gives intent on Sarg, the wagon dissolves.
572 pig not hammering PC
589 pig pokes camn+Plot+me would be inclined to include a partner.
649 camn puts pig as second scummiest, mostly for the Sarg association, that would be nullified by Sarg-flip
701 pig intent to hammer Sarg
703 pig hammers Sarg (being on same wagon wouldbe a point against, but see next item)
705 camn is annoyed with pig. I am still getting vibes of "this is something we intended to do, but this is too soon"
camn prefers frank-lynch on day3. Pig prefers me, but would likely hammer frank.

Strong associative

Spoiler: Kuroi-frank

Kuroi has been scumreading frank a lot (starting form 59).
Frank 'confusion' about Kuroi should have been a scumread(97).
Kuroi defend frank in 211 ,253
Voted frank in 289
frank scumreads kuroi in 344
365 Kuroi putting frank as second scummies is a point in favor of this pair.
381 Kuroi: @PC:"Why do you believe franksa will claim cop?(please answer this question)" Kuroi PR-hunting frank?
408 Kuroi "Sure, I defended him but that's more against PC than it is for Franksa." point in favour
493 Kuroi unvotes frank in favour of PC
584 frank votes Kuroi with me.
664 franks iffy reasoning to switch to Sarg
690 frank switches to Sarg
day3: Kuroi going strongly for Frank lynch

earlier scumreads have some bus-like qualities, but I believe Kuroi truly wants to lynch Frank on day3.

Spoiler: Kuroi-pignash

some early defend of kuroi by jake despite "being eh" about him(38,53,62,139). Jake did defend a lot of people, but Kuroi was the first one and might have been compelled to stick to it to make Kuroi defend stand out less. Would explain a lot of Jakes play.
287 Kuroi calls Jake strong town.
365- "Look at the comment I made about PC in Post #178. It applies to you in Post #182."
178 isn't a post by Kuroi. No idea what he was talking about. Looks like filler.
- "Post #265. I pointed to the scummiest person enthusiastically. I think I've done plenty. It's fine if you vote me, but I don't agree with your reasons for doing so. Want to post someone who's not doing something, there are better choices."
265 is a post by Plot. I should have checked these more throughoutly before.
Putting this in Jake/Pig-section of the post, looks like he is defending against pig, but is defending against Plot instead.
Pig starts the game with a read on Kuroi. makes a point about nullcontent posts, but calls it hypocritical(fallacy). His reasons should point to lean scum but says lean town instead.
Kuroi scumreads frank from 641, but made no comment on pigs 410.
657 Kuroi LOL at Plot asking pig to be useful. That thought would be alot more amusing if Kuroi knew pig was scum.
Stopping day 2 lynch from shifting into Kuroi would be a strong scum-motivation for Pig to quickhammer like he did.
I do think my survival is an argument against this team, but my death would have pointed to Kuroi pretty strongly. Plot prob would have gone for his lynch today if he was alive. Still, a weak point against scum!Kuroi.

Strong associative

Spoiler: franksa-pignash

45 frank express dislike of Jakes entrance
56 frank calls Jake agressive, mild townread
182 Jake defends frank. This is a continuation of a pattern, so I consider it weak.
pig started the game by scumreading frank. scum motivation for pigs hammer would be weak in this case. Lynch was more likely to shift towards Kuroi next, so this team wouldn't have a reason to stick their neck out like that.
192 Jake denies the defending. Scumread of PC weird from a vet.
pigs attack on me is an argument against this team, since I have been townreading frank since day1
Weak scum motivation for Pig to hammer like he did.

Very minimal interactions between the slots indicates this might be a valid pair, but less likely than others.

camn: pignash and maybe Kuroi. prob not frank.
frank: maybe pignash. prob not camn or Kuroi
pig: camn&kuroi tie on first place from associative standpoint. Maybe frank
Kuroi: pignash maybe Kuroi. prob not frank

[tictac]

..okay.
I am fine with this.
Really unlikely that I am wrong about both Kuroi & pig and this should simplify day3 significantly.

@Kuroi
What frank means is that if both you & pig are town, scum can quickly pile on 2 more votes and win. So you come off really certain doing this so soon.
On the plus side, if pig isn't hammered in 24 hours, everyone will know with 100% certainty that there is at least one scum in [pig, kuroi]

[tictac]

Nobody but Kuroi & pig should vote yet thou.

@camn & frank: Reads on Kuroi & pig?

@Kuroi & pig: reads on camn & frank?

@pig Your read on Kuroi?

[tictac]

@Kuroi
Did your previous games somehow not have LYLO?
Cause I am really having trouble understanding this behaviour.

[tictac]

I wouldn't say 100%, but yeah. I see your point.

You didn't.

Nobody but Kuroi & pig should vote yet thou.

Why? Because of activity? If that's the case, it's mostly you and I... and perhaps Camn too.

I was fine with the vote because only way to insta-lose is if it's camn-frank and that is a low probability team. Risk was well worth narrowing the lynch pool to 2 candidates.(you & pig)
Kinda regretting giving the advice now.

Didn't want others to vote cause it isn't time to lynch yet.

@Kuroi & pig: reads on camn & frank?

I know you found my gut feeling of one passive and one active scum to be BS. I'm not holding out too much at that because the order of scum to town in my opinion right now is pignash, franksa, camn and then you. ...Unless you're asking about Franksa and Camn as a team, in which I haven't read anything on that, except for your blurb.

Fine. The reason for the question doesn't apply anymore.

[tictac]

I'm actually in the middle of a meta on him.

Why in the holy hell would you doing meta

after

you voted him on fucking LYLO??
I think that is just a reason you gave so you could back out of the vote semi-gracefully.

[tictac]

@camn, franksa
I'm pretty sure at least one of you is town.

Can you see a possible town motivation for acting like Kuroi did? Cause I sure can't.
I could have bought him being sufficiently certain(at a strech), but he just demonstrated that he wasn't.

Am I assuming too much competence from Kuroi? I don't think I am. He does have more than a few games of exp.
Plot was townreading him for some weird reason so I may have a blindspot?

pedit:
@Kuroi I explained in

708

.
Please answer: Did your previous games have LYLO?

[tictac]

ugh 708

[tictac]

Yeah.
I've been thinking about this, and I still don't see how he could be town.

I think the partner is very probably pig.

@frank Do hold the vote for a few days. We aren't in a hurry.

[tictac]

bit more deep in thought and active as scum. In games where he's innocent, he is barely there. I'm trying to see, once I finish, how his activity matches up to the activity in this game.

You mean like in 1665 where he won as scum and made a total of 10 posts during days 2 & 3?

Please link an active non-blitz scum-game from him.

[tictac]

For him being quiet? Probably.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=63370 Him being mafia, but more active and more in thought as opposed to his normal games.

Replaces in at 3014, last game post is 3338. 20 gameposts total.
Post density 0.06, so bit less active there that he is here.
He does seem little deeper there thou.

Question for you, tictac - Why are you so stringently defending Pignash when all of your reads (739) reference pignash being most likely to be scum buddies with someone? It seems you were harshest against him, except perhaps against me. It's appearing that you're distancing yourself from him.

I said your vote on him was scummy. That doesn't mean I didn't want you to vote him.
The unvote was way scummier.

[tictac]

@pignash
Why did you feel hammering a secondary scumread with 6 days left on the clock was in any way a good idea?

There's 11 days until deadline... Why are you changing the goalposts for me?

Notice the words 'secondary scumread' and 'hammering'.
Neither of those applies here.

[tictac]

I don't think weak arguments are necessarily scummy.
I'm all for Kuroi trying to defend himself and going for the offensive a bit.

If he's scum he is giving us more content for tomorrow.
If he's town him poking holes in our logic is a good thing.
I'll make a proper case on him tomorrow, so he has something solid to defend against.

Also, I am with franksa on town being more likely to get desperate on LYLO.

[tictac]

@pignash
Why did you feel hammering a secondary scumread with 6 days left on the clock was in any way a good idea?

The intention of your post was that with so much time left, there's nothing to hurt for discussion. I feel there's a bit of a contradiction, but I feel that tictac is much more of an experienced player than I am. I feel like I did find a bit of a contradiction, not much - although I still find tictac as far from scum from the lot that we have.

Ok. I can actually see how you might think that.
That is not the complete meaning of 709 thou.
There is a time and a place for compromising on your reads as a townie and it is when and only when there is no other choice.
Pig had poor reasons to scumread me, and he was scumreading Sarg even more weakly.

He could have used the rest of the day to get better reads and push them, maybe just get some reactions out of people so future lynches would have more to go on.
Instead he went for something that was very nearly random lynch from his POW (if he's town). He was very rushed about it going from intent to hammer in less than 24 hours, like he was fearing the chance of mislynch would pass. It was extremely poor play if he is town. If he is scum, the most likely motivation would be protecting you.

With that said, I'm probably on the chopping block.

Probably.
You will get a fair chance to defend yourself if I have anything to say about it thou.

Pignash is the only one not riding my ass, but at the same time, where is he? There's a distinct possibility that since I brought up the point about him being more active as scum, he decided to take a step back, but I'm not holding too much of a stake on that.

True. I do wish he would post soon.

Franksa has been quiet for a lot of the game until that last attack on me, although I like the post before that. I'm having a hard time which of the two I'm going to vote, although I'm open for anyone.

Fair warning then, franksa is my biggest townread, you my biggest scumread. Deciding between you two will not be hard for me.
If you are town and vote for frank you better have good reasons and be clear about them or you will lose.
Do push him if you like thou. He still hasn't linked camn defending him.

[tictac]

camn does seem a bit impatient, and it's making me paranoid about camn-pig.
@frank would you mind holding the intent till sunday?

[tictac]

I'm on my phone at work so I can't respond as much as I like but why is Franksa your biggest townread?

On top of that, why isn't that camn?

Frank practicaly oozes newbtown to me. I really liked his case on Plot day1 and I like how he is now pushing you.
He makes mistakes an actual newbtown would make, like thinking you can't be scum with pig when you voted for him on LYLO and thinking being competent is a reason to go after Plot.

Camn might be buddying me, and that might be the reason I survived the night. I don't really like how she is so sure of things.
It's not an unusual playstyle for mafiascum-vet thou. She is pretty similar to the IC of my first game here who turned out to be town, but she is hard for me to read.

[tictac]

Here's a case for you. Decided to keep it simple this time, cause I want clear answers. My previous case is 677 if people want to refer to that.

pig-vote(743):

Risked instant lose if town.

Says he did this because he didn't know about vote-piling, but I don't see how he could fail to know that.
- I explicitly warned people of that very thing in the first post of the day(708)
- He has experience with the game. I don't believe he was never at LYLO before.

Possible scum motivations:
- Distancing. I just made a case for strong associative between him and pig (739).
- Going for a mislynch. I was pushing for pig pretty hard. (this is less likely in my opinion)

Newb-acting

:
I made a case on him being more competent than he appears in 677. not going to repeat it here.

I'll keep things simple and narrow this down to single instance, thou I do think it is pervasive throughout his play.

I wondered if I was scumreading him because I assume too much competence from him(757)
and he says this in 763 : "Does that not ring a OMGYS bell in your head?"
- Kuroi knows mafia vocabulary.
- I accused him of OMGUS on day 1
- Kuroi never used words he doesn't know the meaning of before this.
- It is misspelled to boot, and Kuroi isn't normally prone to typos.

I don't think this can be a real mistake.
- That is a

very

unlikely coincidence if it's real.
- Mafia motivation for appearing less competent in that moment is clear.


So this is what I need from you Kuroi:
- Explain how you can not know mafia can pile on votes, despite having been told exactly that and having experience with mafia.
- Explain the usage of the term 'OMGYS' in 763 in a way that isn't "wanted to appear less competent". I don't accept a simple 'didn't know' on this. Explain why it's in any way believable that you didn't know.

@Kuroi I can not stress this enough:
If you are town I want you to actually defend against this. Don't just tell me I am wrong.
You use words like 'straw-man' and 'goalpost moving', so you know debate. Make actual arguments.

[tictac]

@pig
You think I might be scum with Kuroi? Really?
Do you have your own reasons to townread Frank or did you just copy that off me?

[tictac]

I disagree. I did already mention I think it's more likely Camn.

@frank There are plenty of reasons to scumread pig, but this isn't one. Gavin in when you pushed would have been the scummy response.
Not wanting to inform the NK is valid.

[tictac]

What's the likelihood that Frank is betting/counting on the fact that everyone knows he's new and that's why he can say what he says and does what he does... and that he can survive until today?

Being new makes frank easier to read, not harder, so I'd say the likelyhood is low.

This is me nitpicking, but I don't understand the importance of the intent to vote. It's like an FoS. Sure, it shows what's going on between the ears, but in the context of hard actions like a vote, an intent to vote is really... nothing, unless I'm missing something.

Still sticking with the "I don't understand LYLO" I see.

Just in case you are genuine about that I'll explain.

For the third time

.
If frank is town and you are town, him voting for you ends the game. Probably not instantly like with a hammer, but pretty surely withing 24 hours.
When a townie votes in LYLO it has the severity of a hammer.
When scum votes in LYLO it has the severity of a regular vote. There is no risk of ending the game.

This is why you voting was such a big deal. Because you treated your vote like scum does.
This is why I asked him to hold the intent, because if it's camn-pig, him voting would end the game.

Fair warning then, franksa is my biggest townread, you my biggest scumread. Deciding between you two will not be hard for me.

And I'm not sure if this is an intended WIFOM, even though I'm seeing it as one. For all I know, you could be legitimate with this belief and see how hard I'll push for someone I really believe is likely to be scum, OR you could be bullshitting me and seeing if I could squeeze in pignash to slip the noose from around my neck. I do heavily and primarily suspect one of those two and I'm honestly going to go for whomever strikes me as scummiest. I still am leaning to pignash, but I will fight for franksa's if I feel strongly for him to go.

I don't like where your head is at. You seem to be thinking "how do I avoid the traps tictac is setting". There are no traps if you are a townie.
I said what I meant.

Well I do like to think about, at this stage of the game, finding the first mafia. I'm not so inclined on finding Mafia #2 if we can't find the first one. If Camn defending him clears him, OK, but are you trying to prove a camn/franksa scum team?

Frank said camn defended him. camn disagreed.
I asked frank to link the defending, but he hasn't done that.
This definitely does not clear frank, it's evidence to the contrary.
I am not trying to prove camn/franksa. I am suspecting you.
Why did you think camn defending him would clear him? Why would I try to prove camn/frank and clear frank in the same sentence? What is your thought process here, cause all I am getting is noise.

I missed these posts earlier.

I wondered if I was scumreading him because I assume too much competence from him(757)
and he says this in 763 : "Does that not ring a OMGYS bell in your head?"
- Kuroi knows mafia vocabulary.
- I accused him of OMGUS on day 1
- Kuroi never used words he doesn't know the meaning of before this.
- It is misspelled to boot, and Kuroi isn't normally prone to typos.

I don't think this can be a real mistake.
- That is a

very

unlikely coincidence if it's real.
- Mafia motivation for appearing less competent in that moment is clear.

Well a lot of people like to call it OMGUS, but I'm a grammar nazi. You starts with a Y, not a U. I go with correction over tradition and I won't call it OMGUS.

Ok. You get a partial point off that, but I didn't ask about the spelling. I asked about the usage of the term.
How does OMGUS apply to "Oh. Disregard everything I ever said. I'm just bad at this game."

So this is what I need from you Kuroi:
- Explain how you can not know mafia can pile on votes, despite having been told exactly that and having experience with mafia.

I knew they could, but I found it to be unlikely. It's not Epic Mafia. Mafia A isn't always going to be online at the same time with Mafia B the majority of the time.

So you are saing you are OK with losing the game if it happens in few hours and not immediately?
Or are you now saying you always intended to take off the vote?

Hell, if Franksa really is mafia like I reasonably believe he may be, he won't be on for until tomorrow, probably. If you strongly believe that the mafia are on their toes and would have totally struck, then wouldn't that say something about pignash?

Mafia don't need to be on their toes to set up a time in the next 24 hours when they are both online. That is all it takes.

Explain the usage of the term 'OMGYS' in 763 in a way that isn't "wanted to appear less competent". I don't accept a simple 'didn't know' on this. Explain why it's in any way believable that you didn't know.

(KuroiXHF: Explained Above.)

No it wasn't.

@Kuroi I can not stress this enough:
If you are town I want you to actually defend against this. Don't just tell me I am wrong.
You use words like 'straw-man' and 'goalpost moving', so you know debate. Make actual arguments.

I know what you want from me and I'm excited for motivating me, but I don't have the concrete evidence to prove I'm not mafia.

I didn't ask for concrete proof. Quit it with the strawmanning. It's not making you look better.
Disprove the case. Show me how it doesn't make sense.

[tictac]

I feel like I've done enough to defend myself. I feel like I've done so enough, so if you're going to vote me, do it already. Until then, the only thing keeping me from voting pignash is the fact that we have enough time on the clock to get more information from the players who have been quiet - everyone but you and I.

Ok.
For what it is worth your effort in defending yourself is not unappreciated.
It's not outside the limits of possibility that you are an (incredibly reckless) townie.
You are still on my top 2 thou, and we are nearing the halfway point of the day.

I can stop holding frank back, but I'd prefer a cross-vote between you and pig.
If that doesn't get hammered you can spend the rest of the day attacking each other from the perspective of being conf-scum to each other.

I'll respond to the rest tomorrow.

[tictac]

Tictac, how certain are you that there is scum in pignash or I?

Very certain.
If it's frank-camn then frank acted against wincon in 747, when he could have just lurked some more just as easily.
frank may be new, but he's not a troll, so he isn't liable to do that.

[tictac]

Just in case you are genuine about that I'll explain.

For the third time

.
If frank is town and you are town, him voting for you ends the game. Probably not instantly like with a hammer, but pretty surely withing 24 hours.

I check this game multiple times within a 24-hour period. The only time I don't have a good hold on this is when I'm sleeping. Even when things are like yesterday and I'm only near a phone, I can still make out an unvote if I feel it necessary.

I am pretty sure you know daytalk exists.
You might as well check once daily, for all the good it does ya as far as unvoting is concerned.

I am not buying this attitude, but at least you are consistent about it.

When a townie votes in LYLO it has the severity of a hammer.
When scum votes in LYLO it has the severity of a regular vote. There is no risk of ending the game.

And I understood all this. You're simply repeating yourself. And like I said, I find pignash to be scummy enough that if I came back and found tow more votes on him, I'd at least have enough hope that it would still flip red text.

Ya took off the vote in response to frank and I, and still haven't re-voted, so not buying this either.

There are motivated town too, which I hope you are.

Indeed.

This is why you voting was such a big deal. Because you treated your vote like scum does.
This is why I asked him to hold the intent, because if it's camn-pig, him voting would end the game.

And this is where

you

are misunderstanding me. My nitpick wasn't on the vote, it was on the INTENTION of the vote. My nitpick was you asking him to hold off the intention of the vote, whereas only the vote meant a great deal.

Frank had already given the intent. I am not a english native, but I am reasonably certain that my intention of "don't vote yet" was clear to all.
Ye'r lucky my ex was a grammar natzi too, so I actually buy that you think this is a point worth addressing. It isn't.

Fair warning then, franksa is my biggest townread, you my biggest scumread. Deciding between you two will not be hard for me.

If you're worried about me voting your townread, you can lessen your concern. The last couple of posts by pignash made me much more convinced I should put my vote back on him.

I liked your initial reasoning better, but ok.

Well I do like to think about, at this stage of the game, finding the first mafia. I'm not so inclined on finding Mafia #2 if we can't find the first one. If Camn defending him clears him, OK, but are you trying to prove a camn/franksa scum team?

Frank said camn defended him. camn disagreed.
I asked frank to link the defending, but he hasn't done that.
This definitely does not clear frank, it's evidence to the contrary.
I am not trying to prove camn/franksa. I am suspecting you.
Why did you think camn defending him would clear him? Why would I try to prove camn/frank and clear frank in the same sentence? What is your thought process here, cause all I am getting is noise.

Because you can see the a possible means of franksa being scum. If I'm going to try to see out of your eyes, it would be camn trying to guide franksa in the mafia chat. It would explain franksa's very quiet demeanor and his refusal to answer the question. I was merely trying to connect your logic.

franksa was quiet before camn replaced in.
Doesn't make sense unless you think frank was receiving advice from CC.

I encouraged you to push frank and gave the camn-defend thing as a possible angle to do so. Nothing more.

And don't kid me, tictac, you suspect everyone - everyone but yourself.

I do indeed, but to varying degrees.

Pignash played his game. He made the appearance of wanting to scum hunt. He didn't make any hints or statements of, "I"m a bad player." He simply said it after I was unrelenting in my pressure regarding Sarg's death.

Your

pressure? I seem to remember you mostly going after franksa before that post.

It seemed like his excuse was, "Why did you bother pay attention to my scumminess? I'm a terrible player! It's like you're getting mad at me for something I said when I was drunk!" It seemed like he gave up on logic and reasoning and appealed to my emotion.

That post was scummy indeed. Not sure about the AtE (Appeal to Emotion).
You are just describing why the post was scummy. Why does the term OMGUS apply?
OMGUS="Oh My God You Suck"
It's a term used when people suspect people who are attacking them, and is generally considered scummy.
You are a grammar natzi. You are not prone to using terms you don't know the meaning of.

I didn't say you asked for concrete proof. Your use of strawmanning is strawmanning my argument.

You said you don't have concrete proof instead of addressing the thing I asked you to address in that post, so no I do not think i was strawmanning your strawman.
I'll grant that you have at least tried to do what I asked later thou.

[tictac]

Ah ok. There is the vote.

[tictac]

@Kuroi This is how this works:
Pig will become conf-scum to ya if he doesn't get hammered in 24 hours.
The informed perspective should make it easier for ya to attack him, so get to it.

There is a dropdown-menu on the bottom of the screen that can be used to filter posts by user. It's called ISO:ing.
Use it. Convince us to vote pig.

[tictac]

Oh, by the way.
@frank I am pretty sure you already know this, but don't vote until we are near the end of day.

[tictac]

@pig
Time to insist on some answers:
- Why did you think I was scum with Sarg? What was the connection there?
- What was your motivation to hammer so quickly and soon yesterday?
- Who is Kurois partner?
- Why is Kuroi scum? Put some effort in please and don't just agree with what others have said. You are not new at this and you should now have a better perspective so "I am just bad" is not acceptable. Make a case.

[tictac]

@pig
Withdraw the question about Kurois partner. I forgot you already answered that.
Do let us know if your view changes.

[tictac]

I think it's fairly obvious that pig is kurois partner :/

I wonder if one is a roleblocker, and they are having a mad discussion as to how to get the regular goon to bite this Lynch?

Pretty likely, yeah.
I do try to keep an open mind thou.
There's still time in the day, and hopefully an entire day tomorrow.

[tictac]

@pig
Do you think you are more active as scum?

[tictac]

I check a lot more than once daily. I feel like I'm more active than any of these scum. I don't think they're so good that they can pull this off, considering I can pin down your times of activity, tictac. Everyone else is much less active.

You feel that going "hey, let's both vote at 8 o-clock GMT" is beyond the capacity of lurkerscum?
Or you feel like you can catch them during the two minutes or less it is likely to take? Because you are more active than them?

Cause it sounds like that is what you would like me to believe.

I can tell there are a number of things to which you are better than I. English grammar likely isn't one of them.

Ad hominem noted.

There is the traditional meaning, and the literal meaning. The traditional meaning is merely, "Oh you voted me? I'll vote you right back!" Then there's the meaning from the words. "Oh my God, you suck," more directly means that someone did something so blatantly terrible that you're struck with awe, which is what I felt for Pignash. ...but is there an actual point to this?

Yes.

Spoiler: context

(snip)
Can you see a possible town motivation for acting like Kuroi did? Cause I sure can't.
(snip)
Am I assuming too much competence from Kuroi? I don't think I am. He does have more than a few games of exp.

I can only see 2 possibilities.
(snip)
2. Kuroi is a lot less competent player than I thought, He actually doesnt understand LYLO (even I do, I have only read 1 game on this site before this game.) so he voted Pignash, the mafia didnt hammer, so... Pignash is one of them.
(snip)
Based on his posts I would say Kuroi is a smart guy. I simply cant buy that with a couple of games experience he doesnt know all these things.
(snip)

franska- I think you might be right about Kuroi playing a little dumb.
(snip)
Either way, even now in the cold light of day- Kuroi voting early in LYLO has more scum motivation than town.

My motivation was pignash was playing such a bad move by stating that, "Oh. Disregard everything I ever said. I'm just bad at this game." I look to his signature and find "Oh wait - I just happened to have won seven games, but lost three of them."

Does that not ring a OMGYS bell in your head?
(snip)

Two possible motivations to use the term
1) appear less competent by deliberately using a term in the wrong context.
2) actually thinking the term is appropriate.

Since you are a grammar natzi the possibility 2 only applies if the term actually is appropriate.
Please link a resource supporting your usage of the term.

[tictac]

Tictac- I'm not sure this is all, like, going anywhere.

There is a specific thing I want to see, and it hasn't happened yet.
I'm willing to give it a few days more. Patience.

[tictac]

It's not an ad hominem. I'm not attacking you as a person at all. I'm just saying when it come to English grammar, I am likely to be better because I have a strong knack for this, I'm a writer, and English isn't your first language. I'm not saying you're terrible or that you are definitely not as good as me. I'm talking about likelihood.

I am perfectly willing to concede that you are better than me at english. That would be relevant if we weren't playing mafia, but we are.
I think you are scum, and that means you aren't a credible source.
That is why I ask for links.

[tictac]

If the OMGUS/OMGYS is relevant to you, then the reason why I use OMGYS makes the grammar relevant.

If you're going to go into semantics like this, go all the way with it.

Already ceded on the issue of spelling. That was never the main point.
Don't see why you would fall back on points already won if it isn't to make the argument more annoying to camn.

[tictac]

Hello RC

[tictac]

While I catch up:

Tictac, Camn, who do you think is scum, and why?
Who is their partner, and why?

Primary:
Kuroi cause I think the newbness is faked. Also LYLO vote that he took off cause he was informed it didn't look towny. You'll get to it.
Pig cause hammerd Sarg prematurely on day2. I'm thinking it was in defense of Kuroi who I was pushing.

Secondary:
Pig could also be scum with camn cause CC&Jake replaced out at the same time. If it isn't Kuroi, it's almost definitely this team.

[tictac]

Thoughts on my replace in?

Why you scumreading Xurio?

Don't you find it a little off how Pignash and Camn both have each other as their primary FoSes but are pushing elsewhere?

Sad that frank had to go. Pissed that he didn't answer the question about camn defending him before he went.
I've seen you around the site and was wondering when I would run into you. Should be an experience.

Do they? Need to check that.
Also

kind of odd

how pig & Kuroi are conf-scum to each other and aren't pushing each other, don't you think?
(That is why on the cross vote from my perspective btw. Wanted to see if one of them changed behavior. You replacing in kinda tramples the test, but was gonna end it tomorrow anyways so eh)

edit: Getting to anything?

[tictac]

Thoughts on my replace in?

Why you scumreading Xurio?

Don't you find it a little off how Pignash and Camn both have each other as their primary FoSes but are pushing elsewhere?

At first I was joking. Now I'm getting a wee bit annoyed. Please make an attempt at spelling Kuroi right.

Also tictac, I don't care what looks townie and what didn't. I took the vote off of pignash because of I was going through his meta since his response to my vote forced me to go through his meta. I seriously thought you knew this. We've been going around in circles quite a bit.

Didn't look like that to me. I even said I thought your meta was fake, so dunno ho you think that.
Did you finish the meta btw? Results?

BTW, how did pignash defend me in voting Sarg? I wasn't anywhere close to being lynched.

I was pushing you pretty hard there. I think you'd have been the lynch day 2 if it that hammer didn't happen.

[tictac]

UNVOTE:

urgh.

I hate this second guessing.

What was the thought here?

[tictac]

Tictac, if I'm dead and you're alive and town, I want you to seriously consider my reads.

It will help if you give your reasons in more detail.

[tictac]

VOTE: Camn

Let's get her!

What was the thought here?

How much more I'd want to lynch Camn.

Make a case then.
Not gonna touch that otherwise with Kuroi & pig still alive.

[tictac]

I'm reluctant to push pignash in light of Camn's play.

...but my vote's on him, and I did say that my iso of him is coming. I am sorry it's taking longer than I'd like, but it's coming.

If you are town then pig is scum. This is 100% certainty.
The game would be over otherwise.

[tictac]

@RC Why so certain it's not Pig-Kuroi?

[tictac]

Why?
Also, you are taking a rather large risk on 'atm' opinion.

[tictac]

Please

read day3 before you vote.

edit: She does agree with me an inordinate amount of time. Not enough to put her in #1 thou.

[tictac]

And your reason to townread Kuroi is "didn't scumread him based on day 1".
I'll be pissed if you replaced in just to throw the game on a hunch.

[tictac]

I think you're horribly underestimating me.

you are going to need to give explanations and examples instead of just relying on "welp I'm RC."

[tictac]

I wouldn't say 100%. Like I've said before, I don't think mafia could coordinate their efforts in such a way.

Yeah. I keep on not believing that you think that.

@RC You apparently buy this attitude. Why?

[tictac]

Order of events.

post 745: the vote
post 746: pig defends.
post 747: Frank points out this looks weird
post 748: Kuroi comments on the defence.

Does not unvote

post 749: I say I am fine with it, but Kuroi looks very sure of himself.
post 751: Kuroi responds to my post and unvotes.

If Kuroi unvoted in response to pigs defense, why not do it in post 748?
This is why I think he unvoted because I said he looks too certain and not because of the defense.

Also:

pig doesn't have meta for being more active as scum

. It doesn't make sense that Kuroi would unvote because he has.
Kuroi switched reasons for the unvote later to 'deeper' which is debatable too.

[tictac]

Oh, that was in response to RC saying early vote is more anti-town than scummy.

[tictac]

I'm too exhausted for read and explanation given atm.

Can all 4 of you give as much of your thoughts on the gamestate as possible?

Well, I think my core thought is that there is a pretty good chance I'll wake up tomorrow having lost this. (thanks for that RC)
Now I am going to sleep. Good night.

[tictac]

Theoretically I can force a Camn lynch by threatening to vote both you and Kuroi in turn since you both think that I'm town and that would enable a quickhammer.

I'm just saying, anything can happen.

I'm gonna nix this in the bud.

Threat tactics only work because people expect a follow-though.

Actual follow-through would be playing against wincon, so a threat like this is either a lie (Lynch all liars) or not against wincon and made by scum.

(An argument could be made that follow-through is not against town-wincon from a-causal perspective, in which case it makes just as much sense for me to precommit to voting anyone making such threats to make them not a valid tactic for scum.
I'd like to keep a-causal tactics out of this game however. It's an unnecessary complication.)

Good thing you were talking theoretically. Do expect a vote from me if you take it into practice thou.

[tictac]

It's a newbie game. I would not do something like that in a newbie game.

That said, we disagree on reads and we're going to have to do something about that sooner or later.

Why are you townreading Camn?

It's not that I townread her. It's that I scumread pig & Kuroi way more.
That said,she did jumpstart day 2 when it was going very slow.

[tictac]

You know I still consider it >20% likely that you are scum with Camn and slowrolling this game for giggles.

Cause we both seem like such jokesters to ya.

[tictac]

40% Pig/Camn
35% Kuroi/Camn
20% Camn/biger
5% Pig/Kuroi

atm

I assume I am biger?
That 5% is weird btw, cause camn is conf-scum to ya if you are town.

[tictac]

Lack of quickhammer alone isn't really a reason.

I'm 95% sure they're scum, but not 100%. Maybe they were afraid to quickhammer because Pignash has seen me bait interrupt quickhammer attempts before?

Yer vote has been on camn for a good while now. You should know what that means.
Link to pig seeing you interrupt a quickhammer please?

[tictac]

No worries. Google exists.

[tictac]

Which day was it thou? Not feeling like slogging through an entire game.

[tictac]

Who was the target of the attempted quickhammer?

Playerlist from that game:
1. BlockyMan*
2. KarmicGuide
3. RadiantCowbells
4. Klingoncelt
5. pignash
6. Dierfire Smudger
7. Ricastle
8. Frozen Angel
9. EspeciallyTheLies ceasor
10. TheCow
11. pisskop

[tictac]

@RC & camn
Have you guys played together before?

[tictac]

Maybe you are lolnuts, and like riskier plays- But I doubt it. I tend to go with the logical answers

RC is lolnuts and does like riskier plays.
Does that affect your read?

[tictac]

I'm thinking camns townread on you is really, really strong, considering the lack of hammer.

[tictac]

I feel like there is much more stuff on Kuroi, but might just be because he talks more.

Camn pushes Kuroi a bit more and I already mentioned the simultaneous replace-out camn&pig slots did.
Also think camn was a bit half-hearted about the 'Kuroi acts dumb' thing, like she might be avoiding giving offense to someone she doesn't think is pretending.
If camn is scum it's more likely to be with pig.

If RC is scum it's more likely with Kuroi. Would explain why Kuroi was so confused by my townread on RC slot.

Still think Kuroi&pig is a strong possibility too, from the way Kuroi didn't focus on pig before I explained what I was looking for from the crossvote.

[tictac]

Gah!!

[tictac]

Well, GG then RC.

[tictac]

What's the Kuroi/camn associative then?

[tictac]

To be frank, I still thought it was Camn/Pig, but I didn't feel like fighting TicTac who had been in game forever.

It was totally possible to get me there!
I even said there was a strong link!

[tictac]

Urg
Sorry Kuroi, for pushing you so much.
Really thought you ere scum.

[tictac]

Didn't think camn would troll us like this.

[tictac]

You flipped out about me proposing a vote change to Camn and reacted hostile to me voting Pignash both times.

As much as I want to win I don't want to replace into a newbie and strongarm the newbie's reads /shrug

I reacted to the voting, not to the target.

[tictac]

I did not feel like I could get through to you.

If this lynch is correct, it's correct.
If not, blame the fact that you threatened to vote me for trying to control the direction of the lynch.

Meh, we all screwed up if this flips town.
I do take my share, I was fine with you&camn voting or I would have stopped you.
Not for objecting to threats thou.

[tictac]

Not much else to say to you, Tictac, except we probably should not be in the same games.

Yeah, I kinda agree. At least from the standpoint of trying to win. It has been kinda fun thou.

[tictac]

goddammit.
Yeah. Good game.

[tictac]

Can we see the mafia-pt & dead thred now?

[tictac]

Also, hey Rask. feels like forever since I saw you.

[tictac]

Ya, sorry for ignoring you on Kuroi. I did honestly try to see it, but just couldn't.

[tictac]

Eh, it's okay camn. I'd be pissed if you didn't try to screw us over as scum.

[tictac]

I just wish I knew how to convince people.

I've never been good at that.

The stuff you said at dusk was alright + you just interacting with camn was helping.

[tictac]

Killing frank instead of Plot would have been a good move. I'm pretty sure I'd have spent LYLO trying to lynch them.

I'm surprised pig pushing me was an actual mafia plot. I thought he just did that cause it was something to do.

[tictac]

Thanks all. This game was certainly intended to shake off my rust and I feel it did a good job. I appreciate you all, especially Tictac, but also Plot for pushing me as hard as you have.

I have a lot more to learn, and I expect to be a better player.

FYI, I'm also not the biggest fan of the coding here to be honest, but I'll grow into it.

In hindsight, I think it was you being a writer that was throwing me off so severely.

Your posts were very well written and when I combined that with being unaware of things in the thread (like who had posted) it looked like you were putting way more effort into writing your posts than you did into reading, and that is usually a scumtell. I probably overestimated the effort it took you to write the way you did severely.

I did consider asking you about education level, hobbies, profession after I asked about your age, but decided it was futile when you were so negative about the age question. I shouldn't have discarded that train of thought. One never knows what is relevant to others in this game. I find it is good to be as open about yourself as you feel comfortable with and answer questions in a straight-forward manner.

[tictac]

On sheeping dead town. There is merit in that, but it's kinda WIFOMy.
Scum gets to decide who they give postmortem conftown status to,so why not give it to someone who has a strong townread on them?

[tictac]

You should def continue to play. You had really bad luck having someone so lurky as a partner not an easy situation to be in

[tictac]

I appreciate it. I hope you still believe that I wasn't trying to attack you personally for English not being your mother tongue, because I mean it.

Nah. I was trying to make a point about how you being better at english didn't mean what you were saying was valid. Cause scum can lie about grammar.
I should have been more clear about it but I was kinda caught up in the moment.

You spoke it so well that I couldn't have been able to tell unless you told me. (BTW, you speak English better than a good number of Americans....)

Ya. I think I've written more in english now, than I ever did in finnish.
You wouldn't think so if you ever heard me try to speak it aloud thou. (btw @camn I think I wanna keep the 'thou'. I don't mind being slightly amusing)

I was a bit dodgy about the age question because I thought it was irrelevant, but I hoped you weren't offended by it. I don't take mafia seriously, and from my experience in past Mafia games (Not MafiaScum), some people need to be less personal too.

I wasn't offended, but I did scumread the dodge. Something you may wanna avoid in future games, maybe. Other players may townread ya for sticking to the 'Officially Approved Content' thou.

I had fun playing with you, and hope to play with you in future games.

Yeah. This was fun, even if the end was kinda embarrassing.
I'm sure we'll run into each-other if ya keep hanging on the site.

[tictac]

Heh. Yea, liking the image of ye olde english gentle-gangsta.
Kinda fits with the tiger-bunny thing I got going on.

[tictac]

Yea