Newbie 1671 - Game Over (Scum win)

[KuroiXHF]

Kuroi is obv town gut

UNVOTE: franksa

STOP IT!

[Plotinus]

Rask

[snip]

@Raskol why do you assume that I was scum-reading frank when I asked him if he was mafia?

Seriously? If you can't see even see why someone would make that assumption, I'm done arguing with you.

This is weird as well. Anyone who knew what he was doing wouldn't see it as a scumread. Not only should that request ("Your role PM says Mafia, right") being answered dismissively and not be entertained, but it definitely shouldn't be continually brought up after he gave his reason for it. It's like you bring it up hoping others will still see it as bad and agree with you and vote on him.

When you say "weird", do you mean weird in a "Rask is scummy for saying this" way or something else?

[Raskolnikov]

Plotinus, I feel like today you will decide whether it's me or Sarg. I've been keenly aware of suspicion around me recently and I expect the worst today. And I think a franksa lynch is not happening with you opposed, without him even having to respond.

[PhantomCobalt]

Kuroi is obv town gut

UNVOTE: franksa

So town that you had to vote me at one point, right?

Aight

[Sarg338]

When you say "weird", do you mean weird in a "Rask is scummy for saying this" way or something else?

In a way, yes. I just think it's weird that Rask wants to keep pushing the "PC is scummy for doing this" thought, even though it's pretty clear it wasn't a scummy thing to do.

That buddying post [p[ost]402[/post] though

[tictac]

Screw it. I'm just posting what I have so far.

Okay now I'm triggered. I guess people are happy with joke reasons other none? I really fail to see how anyone could make a serious vote at that extremely early part of the game, but ok.

@Jake I think I now understand a bit why you dislike rvs.

I'm probably over-defensive right now, but the logic or lack thereof I'm seeing actually makes me mad. Reads will be in next post, hopefully in a few minutes.

Frustration with RVS is a scumtell.

PhantomCobalt (SE) - There's almost no content in his four (4) posts, and given he is clearly active I want to see some. Slight scumread until I see him post reads.

Anticipates townreading a scumread. Tells me that it's not genuine.

Slight Townread

KuroiXHF - This may seem counter intuitive but his early FoS waving reads more to me like an eager town than a mafia sowing discontent.

Defends Kuroi.
"read

s

". 34 ("FOS people who haven't posted") can't be called a 'read' by any stretch of imagination since everybody had in fact posted.

On an unrelated note I'm excited the pace of this game is picking up.

The game was actually pretty slow from town POW at that point. Being scum is more exciting.

Preview-edit: Plotinus answered my question well, though I have him on the list above for completely different reasons, so I won't change it right now.

Again, anticipating changing ones mind weakens a read considerably.

Plotinus has a good chance to change my mind about him come his read(s), though either way it's a good thing to ask for some from him, as if I do find him townish his reads will probably actually be decent.

anticipate townread on scumread.

I don't have hope for PhantomCobalt though. Even if town his posts are extremely low value (ISO and you'll see).

Focus on "low value" rather than "scum".

From what I can tell, he suspects two people. Firstly me, (the post after I read him as slightly scum) for going too hard too early.
Secondly Franksa for no reason given, again right after Franksa read him as slightly scum. ^{Also as Franksa declares V/LA, though that is less significant}

I don't believe Rask wouldn't recognize a gambit.

PhantomCobalt, you're driving me crazy.
I don't understand why you're asking for his role PM at this time.
I don't understand why you have a vote on me despite "slightly town-reading" me.
I don't understand why you want yet more posts from me when one of my posts has more content than all of yours put together.
I don't understand why you want to let "active players drag you us out of this hell" when you are clearly active yourself.

Can you at least give a real reason for your read(s). Not to defend franksa but even the slightest reason would be better than nothing; if all else fails and you say its gut/intuition that at least gives what you say some value.

focus on "low value"

How convenient that you scumread the people who first suspected you, right afterwards too.

At this point I am very convinced of his guiltiness: how his behaviour changed when accused (ISO him) gives me a panicked-scum vibe from him.

121 states clear scumread on PC(despite repeatedly. Immediately softens it in 122.
Before 121 repeatedly referred to PC as 'low value'.

(talking about PC)
Honestly I'm having trouble arguing with you because it would mean to some extent understanding your position, but none of it makes sense at all. There's no consistency, nothing to even follow.

Incoherence isn't a reason to scumread somebody and PC isn't incoherent.

You still haven't given actual, good reasons for why you think people are scum, apart from vague one liners in my case

Reluctance to be seen as defending somebody is actually a pretty good scumtell, for this point in the game.
I see no attempt to understand where PC is coming from.

Even if your read(s) were accurate (obviously not on me, but its possible on franksa), with terrible or no reasoning as you have its essentially worthless. I hope for your sake you are mafia (I'm fairly confident), because as town play this dodgy would be inexcusable.

Again, "low value".

@Raskol why do you assume that I was scum-reading frank when I asked him if he was mafia?

Seriously? If you can't see even see why someone would make that assumption, I'm done arguing with you.

"Done arguing" with a scumread? Why not probe him some?
PCs reason for that question is clear if one just looks. Rask didn't.

PhantomCobalt on the other hand is obvscum. Like "would actual scum be that obvious?" obvious.

Really doesn't jive with repeated reference to Phantom possibly being badtown.

With his less-than-stellar defence I don't see a reason to change wagon for now. Even if he is town (<30% chance imo), at this point I think the faulty reasoning he has shown, in later days would be detrimental to town anyways.

More hedging bets.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jake

I see a lot of defending others and third-party(indirect) interaction from you, but not one significant effort to actually find/pressure a scum. If you have a scumread you sure aren't doing anything with it.
OK it doesn't mean you are scum but nonetheless I want you more involved. It seems to me like you've just been playing safe and making friends so far.

This is essentially a policy vote on Jake for low participation, despite supposedly having a scumread on PC.
Careful to say he isn't scumreading Jake while voting him.

As for this franksa wagon,(snip)
But I like his reaction. If he is mafia he certainly isn't giving it away. I don't think lynching him is a good idea at this point.

Sheep Jake on franksas reaction being non-scummy. Was reluctant to give such view prior to this.
Vote on Jake & agreement with him in the same post. This is in conflict with saying he townred Kuroi for thought-sync.233

Atm he's(PC) the only person I'm scum reading but it isn't strong enough to put him at l-1 (I guess with you unvoting he's not l-2 anymore)

Alright, you've satisfied me. I just wanted to know if you really scumread PC or just found his case for franksa bad (not necessarily the same thing).

Reason for the Jake-vote changed from 131. Was "I want you more involved" prior to this. Unvotes,based on this new reason.

Intent to vote: Franksa

Okay, this is really difficult. I really don't like PC's play because I find it gimmicky and relies on gambits. Attempting to draw out scum through making them emotional, but in doing so he looks terrible himself.

Sees town motivation behind PC, yet 'intent to vote' for being scummy looking.

I did meta him and I found he did this as both alignments though.

Despite knowing PC looks that way in both alignments.

(snip)Plotinus's latest objectively fantastic posts.

Buddy, buddy.

I was confident PC was scum and so didn't assign much weight to what he was saying.

He really didn't sound confident about that with the constant reference to PC being badtown instead.

Here's why it's really tempting though: the results that would come of it. Franksa lynched flipping scum would essentially confirm PC as town (99%), and for the most part Plotinus (~70%).

Info-lynching is a really bad idea.

On the other hand if PC flips scum I'd probably be lost as to who it town or scumfirms .

Here's why info-lynches are a bad idea. (I think he meant to say 'town')

(it would make me look good but that's only useful for everyone but me)

LAMIST usually isn't scummy to me, but it is when it's hidden like this.(I see no reason to say this except to look town)

Why is this important? I'm scumreading both of them but one of them must be town, and I'd rather go for the bigger upside, as well as the case I'm probably less biased about. If franksa is actually town I'll be almost certain PC is scum, though. If the 2 people I find scummiest are both town that would be absurd.

Cases on both PC & franksa were weak. Both of then flipping town is by no means absurd.
Smells like chaining mislynches. The retraction in 218 does soften this point thou, but could be caused by his partner telling him not to do the obvscum thing.

So I intend to vote Franksa. I don't want to put him to L-1 right now though as I don't trust people not to quickhammer.

Why not?

If someone else puts him to L-1, let this be known as an Intent to Hammer.

Intent to hammer while avoiding responsibility.
This is just horrible and I don't believe Rask would be this bad as town.

@Franksa would like a role reveal (soft would probably be enough at this time)

Also horrible. Rolefishing is the only reason I can see for this.

PC is probably town even if franksa is town as well.

Retracts the scummy point, then directs attention to Plotinus instead (while saying Plot shouldn't be lynched).

I'm increasingly suspecting plotinus instead. A wagon on him would be stupid today,

Saying this makes all the conspiracy-stuff just noise.(possible distancing)

but that's probably where I'll start if franksa flips town. I don't know if it's worthwhile talking about my reasons for distrusting plotinus right now

Only if you want to lynch them.

(snip a huge bit about Plot being scum because he looks town)
It's overthinking, reaching too far I know, but it bothers me. In the hope of quelling this paranoia I want to know how PC sees Plotinus at this point in time. PC is probably town (since it's become apparent what he actually did thanks to Plotinus), and I think you get more of a read when you are more involved with the person, and I think being on the same case and then getting read directly by Plotinus should give PC a fairly good impression.

That's a lot of words to ask for a read.
Comes across as really timid.

(if Plot is actually scum franksa is surely town).

Why? Scum!Plot is capable of making a strong case on franksa. Plots case was weak. Might be a soft-bus, especially with the unvote.

I don't like the interaction with Kuroi; I think its bad for him to criticize Kuroi's response as being quick to emotion when Franksa later reacts similarly to Phantomcobalt.

A fallacy, but a common one. Town can do scummy things and it doesn't make a scummy thing less scummy.

The other thing I don't like is his response to Plotinus: I feel he deliberately misinterpreted what Plotinus meant by "not every post in his ISO is scummy, but that's rarely the case"

fair point.

(on PC)He should read the results of his test well considering he is a player to use such things

Now he's reading PC as competent? I actually agree(for a given value of competent), but not really buying that he does.

If franksa is town I expect the wagon on him to be bolstered by at least 1 mafia. As it is, there is PC (I think probtown), formerly Plotinus (probtown unless my conspiracy theory is correct), me (Town), and Maxspir, who gave no comment with his vote, which I think mafia wouldn't have the balls to do. In other words I think the people who are/were on the wagon is too townish, which makes Franksa look bad

That's 3 pretty solid townreads if he's willing to bet on all of them being correct.

Now maybe Plotinus (or Jake) will come tomorrow and blow my mind with whatever he'll do next,

Buddy,buddy.

I'm not sure what it's called but I think it was a fallacy or bias of some sort to look too hard within the thing you've seen more of; even if someone is scummy there is no reason to believe the guy away would not be more scummy if he was here.

Could be defense of a buddy who is also active. Daytalk is a pretty good reason to expect both scum in the active crowd.

I expect a scum within [Franksa, Plotinus]

Why?

Because I suspect Franksa and if it isn't Franksa there is a small chance it is Plotinus (as per conspiracy theory 213).

Townflip on franksa would make Plot only slightly more likely to be scum so this is illogic. I believe rask is logical, so things like this sound like deliberate twisting of words.

Mostly its PoE though

Pretty early for POE, but plausible.

More active players (I expect 1 scum here)
PC, Plotinus, Franksa, Kuroi, Me
Less active (I expect the other scum in here)
Max, Jake, Convergent

Not much to say about this group. tictac I'm not assigning as either active/inactive since his slot replaced out, which I consider different from normal inactivity, but he's townlean to me so it doesn't matter either way.

It does matter if you are doing POE based off that.
Especially with only a lean on me. Again, I think you know I'm town.
Or you are bad at logic. Which I don't think you are.

Ending the day with substantial amount of time still on the clock is widely considered a scumclaim.

You're implying that's what I wanted to do, which is wrong.

I very carefully avoided saying

I

was scumreading him based on that and he reacted as if to an accusation. weak sign of quilty conscience.

That's a clear misinterpretation of what I said. Context is important. The very reason I didn't even vote him but said I intend to in future is because I didn't want someone quicklynching and ending the day. I said this in that very post. Basically the point I was trying to get across was that

I support the wagon

and would have voted had he not been L-2 at the time, so for that moment I would have a sort of have a ghost-vote with letting my intention be known.

Very convoluted way of saying "I support this wagon". I believe he would have said "I support this wagon" is that is what he meant.

I didn't want to be non-committal

Intentionally not giving scumtells is a scumtell.

and I (obviously) trust my judgement not to quicklynch but I can see how that looks bad.

It does.

I thought I'd mention I'm okay with or perhaps indifferent with the Kuroi wagon.

You shouldn't be if you have any scum-reads at all.
Comes across as not really caring where the lynch lands as long as it isn't on you.
(also Rask-Kuroi associative, but that is weak on day 1)

he showed depth of thought and similar pov as I did early

How did he show depth of thought? "FOS non-existing people?",

but I think staying on PC even now is way too stubborn. (snip) I think a town would be more desperate to do stuff even if its risky and less willing to sit on a rather safe sort of dead wagon.

Fair point, but I don't see a vote on Kuroi.
You chose to advice him on how to look less like scum instead of scumreading him for scummy behaviour.

Oh yeah, after seeing the vc post: since max was inactive clearly before the logic was mentioned, I suppose he gets the same slight benefit upon replacing that tictac would?

Arguing for town-points for max, towny. (note possible associative for future thou)

Rask and Jake come across strongly town, you're kind of in the middle, and most others aren't making contributions.

Can you explain because I'm

seeing a massive contradiction here

.

Still not seeing a vote.

(@kuroi)
Minor nitpick(snip)Read about the Matrix6 setup.

You guys know what I think about this.

I'll explain for the benefit of others.

Catches on quickly on what I was trying to say.
Spent some effort in this (or knew)
- Takes things that may implicate him very seriously.
- Didn't consider I might be scum trying to frame him. I don't believe that he did and excluded that because wanted to avoid drama because he is definitely not avoiding unnecessary drama when it comes to Plot.

[Sarg338]

Damn it. 402 is what I mean.

[Raskolnikov]

I'm actually sort of impressed with how bad I managed to look despite being town.

[KuroiXHF]

this is what I was referring to when I said that you defended him:

I didn't see Franksa as worried. I saw him as annoyed. It annoyed me too, and I wasn't even asked.

If worried is the scummier reaction and annoyed is the neutral or townie reaction (not sure which it is in your perspective), then this is equivalent to saying his reaction wasn't scummy it was null.

It's not a bad thing to defend people if you think they are being attacked from an angle that's unwarranted.


Also, I view posts in a "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" sort of way. We can only vote for one person at a time; a vote for Phantom is a notvote for everybody else. Choosing a wagon to join is choosing to not join the other viable wagons, choosing to not start a new one.

I want to vote PhantomCobalt. I find him to be the scummiest person in the game, and I think it's so painstakingly obvious that I'm surprised no one else feels the same way and is willing to commit. However, as you've seen from my grading, Franksa is the second most scummiest person on my list. Since there are more than one Mafia and all we have to go on is whoever the scummiest person is, I'd rather get Franksa lynched and actually succeed in that endeavor, than no one lynched

If you want an example, say Governor Johnnie Walker is running for President and he's your favorite guy but he's polling at 2% but then there's Senator Jack Daniels and you don't like him as much, but you'd still think he'd be better than Selectman Jose Cuervo and would be a good President, then you'd vote him. I'm essentially doing the same thing. I

want

to vote PC, but I'm voting Franksa because it's viable and I don't want people I see as town (at the moment) lynched - like Tictac,

As for the comment, I see your point. Sure, I defended him but that's more against PC than it is for Franksa. If I really had a stake in him being alive, I'd get rid of him.

[PhantomCobalt]

On my homesite I'm known as "the best mafia player in the world"

[pignash]

Guh, sorry guys. Busier than anticipated day at work. Gonna take my wife out to dinner than I should have the rest of the evening to do my plotinus review and respond to the last few pages.

[tictac]

Ungh. Correction: 213 'intent to vote' wasn't on PC but on franksa.
So only scumread PC based on reasons he knew were bad and didn't intend to vote there.
Rest of it applies thou.

[camn]

Or do you really believe that someone playing their first game on Mafiascum would vote himself in such a way that it comes across as accidental and would immediately unvote for some sort of... reason?

No! Thats why you get a null read. In a different game though, I generally go with selfvote=scum.

VOTE: camn for only using surface level thinking

Somebody hasn't come to terms with the fact that he isn't very good at this game

I think she [camn] doesn't account for Sarg only having a few completed games (in spite of his join date) and having mostly played Town of Salem (where I think day 1 no lynches are more common), and she makes a big deal about him intending to vote franksa after having just unvoted him when the unvote was a "I just replaced in and haven't read anything" unvote.

I think this might be true. I don't even know what a "town of salem" is! But it doesn't explain the coordination/sheeping

As such, 310 bothers me because we really shouldn't be talking about PRs at all not even a little bit unless someone is at L-1 and they need to claim.

Agree totally! More scumpoints for Sarg, no? I like the vote.

Plot is very helpful and I would agree that he moves the game forward, but if we're going to use a football analogy, we can't assume that moving forward is necessarily forward in the right direction.

Whats with the undermining here? Plot is certainly town. Obv we all need to get in there, because he will almost certainly be killed at some point. But forward IS the right direction.

VOTE: franksa l-1 can't wait for this cop claim

I have just logged in i have 5 minutes left of my break at work. I wont be able to post in the next 8 hours. Leave business after that.

UNVOTE: franksa

PAGE 16! WTF with the franska wagon/backdown How is Cobolt putting someone at L-1 and then

not even waiting for his reaction

before backing down? It reads like he was hoping for a quicklynch, maybe an accidental hammer (with all these accidents, Kuroi! I KID! I KID!). Hate it. Like I hate all of his play this game. If you are gonna run somebody up... GET SOME INFO FROM IT.

I want to vote PhantomCobalt. I find him to be the scummiest person in the game, and I think it's so painstakingly obvious that I'm surprised no one else feels the same way and is willing to commit.

It wouldn't take much for me to vote with you on this.

[PhantomCobalt]

camn you hate my play because you don't understand it, humans naturally hate things that they don't understand

so your scum read on me is only because of evolution, and not because of scummy play ^.^

[camn]

guys like you treasure their scumplay over their townplay. They play scummy all the time so they can "fool" people as scum and win. It makes you hard to read, sure. Which is totally beneficial as scum, and helps the town not as all.
If we have a cop and they confirm you, I'll let it slide, but otherwise I see nothing in you that looks like a fellow townie.

[franksa]

Got sent home early from work, having a serious headache. It has just passed midnight here so I will ask one question then go to bed. Rask, Kuroi. I dont succeed in grasping the main point in your case against me. Can you help me with that?

[camn]

There is no case against you. It was a scum-fueled fakewagon pushing for a mislynch, and it fizzled in the face of town indignation.

[PhantomCobalt]

guys like you treasure their scumplay over their townplay. They play scummy all the time so they can "fool" people as scum and win. It makes you hard to read, sure. Which is totally beneficial as scum, and helps the town not as all.
If we have a cop and they confirm you, I'll let it slide, but otherwise I see nothing in you that looks like a fellow townie.

I hate meta meta can be manipulated so I never meta read or use a meta defense

So your argument is invalid

[KuroiXHF]

Words speak for themselves, camn, so if that post is enough to vote me, you'd already have done so.

[camn]

Vote WITH you, kuroi.

[KuroiXHF]

Hahahaha. My mistake. I guess you can tell that I've been up since before the crack of dawn.

[Zaicon]

VOTE COUNT 1.9

Sarg338 (2) - camn, Plotinus
camn (0) -
tictac (0) -
KuroiXHF (0) -
Raskolnikov (1) - tictac
franksa (2) - KuroiXHF, Sarg338
pignash (0) -
PhantomCobalt (0) -
Plotinus (1) - franksa

Not Voting: pignash, Raskolnikov, PhantomCobalt

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Sunday, January 3rd 2016 at 8:45 pm PST or in (expired on 2016-01-03 20:45:00)

[Raskolnikov]

blah blah blah

I'm not going over every single thing. In fact I'd rather than close my eyes and hope it goes away than respond at all, but there is an obligation.

Most of the points listed are legit. My actions in 213 were objectively terrible/scummy through being overzealous and lacking forethought. I was also way too slow to re-evaluate the game when I learned of the reaction-test thing. The "scum must be contained in [person1, person2]" was just garbage faulty logic. As far as scumhunting goes I do need a lot of work.
Some of these points are somewhat misunderstandings, mostly the analysis in the earlier-game (1st half). I stand by my frustration with how the rvs went in this game, I stand completely with how I interacted with PC considering what I knew at the time, I think voting Jake to try to get him to say stuff was a good plan despite result, and I genuinely was/still am paranoid about plotinus and conspiracy theorising, though perhaps I should have kept that to myself. I especially stand by my suspicions and chasing of the low-content/low-value posts, which you seem to think is a bad way to play the earlygame.
Finally, a few times he makes the case that because I've shown some reasoning, that I would not be "this bad as town". This made me blush, to be honest, he's saying that he would expect me to have played significantly better if I was "actually town" than I did play. Now I don't think this is a very sound reason for a lynch without actual evidence on my expected town vs scum level. I think he's taking my high points, like when I explained his theory about me + kuroi, and assuming that should be an average level instead of a peak. I think the good you see is more of a trait specific to me (this sounds very cocky), whereas the bad is for the most part inexperience. I am a newbie, after all. My friend invited me here rather recently!
I will say, I hope I improve to the point where you think I can, and as you seem town to me I'm sorry to disappoint.
Overall it's a pretty decent case. All I can really do is assert this is probably a TvT, and hope others somehow arrive at that conclusion.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Sarg338

Franksa isn't being lynched today, and this is my second scumread. Most of it is from Maxspir rather than Sarg. I can't believe I actually townread him earlier for voting without a comment because I thought that was something "mafia wouldn't have the balls to do". Plotinus has very good points about him which I don't see the need to repeat, but I'll add my own extra reason which is a little shoddy but does still influence me.

Sarg338/Maxspir_7 - somewhat scum. I don't like how his scummy list in 331 has 3 lynchable people, it seems a little too convienient that all his scumreads had a chance of being lynched at the time.

[Sarg338]

VOTE: Sarg338

Franksa isn't being lynched today, and this is my second scumread. Most of it is from Maxspir rather than Sarg. I can't believe I actually townread him earlier for voting without a comment because I thought that was something "mafia wouldn't have the balls to do". Plotinus has very good points about him which I don't see the need to repeat, but I'll add my own extra reason which is a little shoddy but does still influence me.

Sarg338/Maxspir_7 - somewhat scum. I don't like how his scummy list in 331 has 3 lynchable people, it seems a little too convienient that all his scumreads had a chance of being lynched at the time.

Woooo a new vote!

reads post

Aww, no new accusations? Boring.

Plotinus has very good points about him

Oh, you mean those points that a majority of them were based on him not realizing I'd been following the game from the beginning?

Sarg338/Maxspir_7 - somewhat scum. I don't like how his scummy list in 331 has 3 lynchable people, it seems a little too convienient that all his scumreads had a chance of being lynched at the time.

\

I mean, you weren't exactly in a lynchable position there. So if you're going to use that as a reason, at least get the numbers right. Even then, I also had Kuroi in a nulltell position as well. So it's more like 1 and a half.

You can conjure up a better case than this against me.