Newbie 1728: Training Your Dragon Mafia [Game Over]

[reso]

Awesome. It begins.

I'd just like to start that this is actually not my first game here. I have attempted 5 games here previously and finished only 2? HOWEVER, the first game I finished was back in 2010, the last game I attempted was back in 2013, and only 2 weeks ago have I started playing again on a different forum. I've decided to come back to this site to relearn and back-up the fundamentals before I do some of the more crazier things that go on at the other forum I previously mentioned.

And RQS. Woot.

1) I'll try to be as active as I can. Currently jobless/still looking for a job, so if I can remind myself, I'll probably be here as much as I can. I am playing from the US Pacific Coast if you need a reference of when and where I am posting from.

2) I don't like to use low activity as a basis for scum-hunting. If the person on the spot turns out to be mafia, their lynch just looks like an easy-to-jump-on bandwagon. If said person turn out to be townie, it's rather hard to analyze any interactions with the people that voted because none existed. High Activity.... I'm... a little unsure about. Mainly because I'm rather fond of the Too Townie Fallacy. The very first game I finished here the townie lost because of such a situation. Other than that, a lot of activity but with fluffposting is more or less equal to low activity to me, so I usually don't have a solid enough reason to vote for said person.

3) I don't think all liars should be lynched. I think that townies with powerful roles will lie in order to protect themselves and the ones that they have power over.

4) While I like to employ the Too Townie Fallacy, I don't think I've ever seen the Too Scummy Fallacy used as well to the same extent. While it might be particularly truer for new players, in regular play, scummy players just usually just actual scum.

5) I don't remember how I've played before on this site. However, in the game at the other forum, I took up a super aggressive Day 1 stance, pushing against someone's unfortunate timing of their post with another's to force an force an incredibly chill RVS-only Day 1 into active discussion, in hopes that I've painted enough of a target on my back for people to get out of their box. Something to keep in mind is that prior to this game, the only games I've played and finished were the 2-week long day periods Newbie games with 9 people that are so prevalent here, and that game was a Literal Day period Chocolate game with 45 people. So I took up that aggressive stance because I was unused to the meta. While it was interesting, I hoping to play as aggressively in the future. I think that mafia play is the same thing as townie play. The best thing you can do as mafia is act like townie.

[reso]

While it was interesting, I hoping to play as aggressively in the future.

'...I am hoping to play not as aggressively in the future.'

5) I don't remember how I've played before on this site.

OF COURSE, I could look up my previous games here, but I'd really rather not spend time reading old games top to bottom.

And when it comes newbie games, I think that RQS serves as a relatively easy way to get information about other players and an icebreaker into specific mechanics and theories about gameplay. To hear that RQS is declining is very saddening to me.

I should also probably get an avatar or picture for people to identify myself with.

Oh, and VOTE: DistructiveNick. Because I used to have an employer named Nick. He was not a good employer.

[reso]

1. Those aren't random questions.

2. Why are you so defensive from the start?

I apologize, but to whom are you referring to?

[reso]

1) Have anyone of you played any off-site games?
2)How about on-site games? If so; How Many?
3) How would you describe yourself as an individual?
4) What do you think you will be remembered for this game?
6) Favourite pizza topping?
7) Favourite Movie?
8) Favourite Song/band/music genre?

1) Just finished a 45-man Chocolate game in the other forum. And actually, also waiting for a Dune-based Chocolate game with Spice bartering and temporary resurrection mechanics to begin on the same forums. I'm.... not looking forward to that game because of said extra mechanics.

2) I've previously mentioned this already, but I've attempted a total of 5 games here, only 2 of which I've finished while still of active participation. The last game I attempted was back in 2013, and the last game I finished was was in 2010.

3) A Magi. As in the short story, "The Gift of the Magi". I enjoy helping people, but I do not like getting help back or I'll wait until I absolutely need help before asking for it.. I also tend to be a bit of a lone wolf, as in video games, if there is a sniper character, I'll usually sticking to said sniper character. I have a hard time getting to know people and making friends in general, but despite my hard shell, I think I'm amiable on the inside.

Then again, you probably shouldn't trust someone who calls himself amiable.

4) I have absolutely no idea how I will be playing this game. Thus I do not know of what I will be remembered by. Hopefully, something will come up eventually.

5) [REDACTED}

6) Damn, a food question. There's honestly too many favourites. I guess it depends on the pizza. I usually prefer a Bechamel sauce over a Tomato sauce. My favourite all purpose topping is garlic, followed up by olive and olive oil. My favourite meat is probably proscuitto (I would say raw smoked salmon, but at that point, the pizza is more like a flatbread). I've also enjoyed the use of baby arugula on some pizza as sort of a flavorful garnish after the baking process. Yeah, too much favourites. I could go on and on.

7) I'm more of a documentary person, of which I've enjoyed the most were Planet B-Boy and Zeitgeist.

8) AHH, SO MANY CHOICES. My favourite artist in general is Nujabes (may his soul rest in peace), and I will also listen to other musicians of the same sort of style, such as DJ Okawari. I'm also an avid fan of Caravan Palace, and the Electroswing genre in general.

You aren't asked to regurgitate useless, NAI details such as your favourite film or icecream or whatever. Rather, we get an early indication of how people react under pressure (especially when wagoned) which is vital for spurring on discussion.

That's why I think RVS is far, far superior to getting D1 underway than RQS.

That said, happy with my vote for now.

Why can't you have both? RVS is an essential part of any mafia game, and it's always going to happen. But I see RQS serving as an icebreaker, particularly in newbie games, allowing newer players to ease themselves into discussion. In a newbie game, RQS is always a welcome addition, but understandably so, not so relevant anywhere else. Another considerably-more-hare-brained meta reason RQS is that it would allow veteran players to gauge a newer player's attitude and playstyle. It's too meta and inconsistent to actually be called a legitimate reason, but the possibility exists.

[reso]

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

Either use the Vote function provided to you when typing up the chat by typing out the name of the person that you want to vote for, highlighting it, and selecting the Vote function.

Or do what you did, and then boldify it.

[reso]

...
3) Lynch "all" liars or no?
....

Maybe not,

for example, innocentvillager drew a very powerful role.

He should lie about it and do whatever he needs to so he won't be a night-kill targer. This creates a WIFOM, though, and he may get killed.

To me, this part feels incredibly weird. You could be actually using an actual example, OR you slipped and told us that IV has a powerful role in this game, and the only way you could possibly know that is if you knew what IV is before the start of the game. It's also worth noting that IV has noted you as having a very minor TR in Post 38, despite not having had contributed anything gamewise prior to said Post 38.

If RyanK and IV are both mafia, then who would I like to see out first......

UNVOTE: DistructiveNick
VOTE: innocentvillager, just purely on the fact that I feel like the Too Townie Fallacy is going to hit me harder from IV than RyanK.

FoS: RyanK

[reso]

Why does it matter that I have a very minor TR on Ryan?

Prior to your Post 38, these were RyanK's only posts:

I'll vote randomly. VOTE: hiplop

UNVOTE: hiplop VOTE: innocentvillager. The name looks too innocent.

1. Those aren't random questions.

2. Why are you so defensive from the start?

I apologize, but to whom are you referring to?

To answer your question, he(PhantomCobalt) is most likely (PhantomCobalt should know better) referring to innocentvillager as

RQS! (Random Questioning Stage)

I know, SE's...

Thanks for the help, hiplop. It's already 11 here. I'd better go get some sleep now. Goodnight everyone regardless of their time zone.

*11 p.m.

How/why did you get a very minor TR from this devoidness of game help?

[reso]

How/why did you get a very minor TR from this devoidness of game help?

Just got a general feeling that was trying to engage with the game, and honestly I gave a townpoint or a half for him when he switched votes soon after his first post, which showed some fearlessness.

Fearlessness against what exactly? His initial vote and vote switch was pretty much back-to-back and it was still RVS. What's there to fear in RVS? Are you to be feared then? The only ones to be feared in this game are the ones with that kill without warrant.

He was replying to my comment, I don't see why him using me as an example is so sketchy. If he had said anyone else's name, then YEAH that's weird as shit.

Another interesting thing about his response to you is that despite responding to you, he refers to you in a third person perspective. Why would he do so? Because I think you and RyanK are mafia, I will assume that this was him trying to distance himself from you while you attempt to make him look better than he has actually done with your 'very minor TR'.

[reso]

IV does bring up a good point, I did not notice his reply was to iv'S original questions

How is that a good point? To me, it's neutral, I don't see anything good nor bad about it.

[reso]

VOTE: innocentvillager.

How/why did you get a very minor TR from this devoidness of game help?

Just got a general feeling that was trying to engage with the game, and honestly I gave a townpoint or a half for him when he switched votes soon after his first post, which showed some fearlessness.

Fearlessness against what exactly? His initial vote and vote switch was pretty much back-to-back and it was still RVS. What's there to fear in RVS? Are you to be feared then? The only ones to be feared in this game are the ones with that kill without warrant.

He was replying to my comment, I don't see why him using me as an example is so sketchy. If he had said anyone else's name, then YEAH that's weird as shit.

Another interesting thing about his response to you is that despite responding to you, he refers to you in a third person perspective. Why would he do so? Because I think you and RyanK are mafia, I will assume that this was him trying to distance himself from you while you attempt to make him look better than he has actually done with your 'very minor TR'.

Well, I feel like you're trying to distance yourself from innocentvillager as well, so innocentvillager and reso are both mafia. If you're not a mafia, reso, maybe you should notice by now how inaccurate this accusation is.

But the difference between you and me was that IV decided to read you as a 'very minor TR' despite you not having done anything noteworthy IMO of any sort of read. Do you find any of your posts before Post 38, and/or the culmination of them, noteworthy enough for a 'very minor TR'? Because I sure don't.

[reso]

If my own VC is correct IV is at L-2 right now

Unfortunately...... IV was at L-0 for 3 minutes after Rusty's vote.

LIKE, what the actual fuck, Rusty. SERIOUSLY WHAT THE FUCK.

[reso]

OH THANK FUCKING GOODNESS.

But seriously. What the even fuck, Rusty? That was bad etiquette. Even if that vote didn't go through, You don't attempt to hammer like that.

[reso]

I'm willing to PL Rusty using a 3 strike system, counting this incident as Strike 1. This is after all a newbie game, and Rusty is here to learn. It would be a disservice to Newbie games in general if we PL someone new to mafia in general because of such a happening.

[reso]

VOTE: Vaxkiller

For what reason?

[reso]

VOTE: Vaxkiller

For what reason?

Let me add more to this. Your IV vote at least had some amount of reasoning to it. But then you jumped onto Vaxkiller without any reasoning to do so. Prior to your vote, Vaxkiller hadn't even posted anything. Please give me/us your reasoning behind this.

[reso]

VOTE: innocentvillager.

How/why did you get a very minor TR from this devoidness of game help?

Just got a general feeling that was trying to engage with the game, and honestly I gave a townpoint or a half for him when he switched votes soon after his first post, which showed some fearlessness.

Fearlessness against what exactly? His initial vote and vote switch was pretty much back-to-back and it was still RVS. What's there to fear in RVS? Are you to be feared then? The only ones to be feared in this game are the ones with that kill without warrant.

He was replying to my comment, I don't see why him using me as an example is so sketchy. If he had said anyone else's name, then YEAH that's weird as shit.

Another interesting thing about his response to you is that despite responding to you, he refers to you in a third person perspective. Why would he do so? Because I think you and RyanK are mafia, I will assume that this was him trying to distance himself from you while you attempt to make him look better than he has actually done with your 'very minor TR'.

Well, I feel like you're trying to distance yourself from innocentvillager as well, so innocentvillager and reso are both mafia. If you're not a mafia, reso, maybe you should notice by now how inaccurate this accusation is.

Going back to RyanK on this vote. First of all, that placement of the vote in this post is just plain weird. It's just weird. Really weird. Have I mentioned the word 'weird'? No? How weird.

Second, here, you try to use my own logic against me by trying to say that I'm distancing myself from IV, and therefore, IV and I must be scumbuddies. It doesn't matter who you were to vote for if that were true, they're both scum, right?

WRONG. I was the one attacking you and IV. The only thing IV had done is was label you as having a 'very minor TR'. If the both of us must be scumbuddies according to your reversal of my logic onto myself, why would you vote for the one that's given you a 'very minor TR', and not the one that's actually attacking you?

I upgrade my

Finger of Suspicion

to a

Fist of Suspicion

.

[reso]

*re-reads all of his own posts and realizes something*

DAMMIT, I'M BEING AGGRESSIVE AGAIN. I WAS TRYING TO BREAK THIS HABIT GOD DAMMIT.

*repeatedly bashes his face into his palm and desk*

[reso]

VOTE: innocentvillager.

How/why did you get a very minor TR from this devoidness of game help?

Just got a general feeling that was trying to engage with the game, and honestly I gave a townpoint or a half for him when he switched votes soon after his first post, which showed some fearlessness.

Fearlessness against what exactly? His initial vote and vote switch was pretty much back-to-back and it was still RVS. What's there to fear in RVS? Are you to be feared then? The only ones to be feared in this game are the ones with that kill without warrant.

He was replying to my comment, I don't see why him using me as an example is so sketchy. If he had said anyone else's name, then YEAH that's weird as shit.

Another interesting thing about his response to you is that despite responding to you, he refers to you in a third person perspective. Why would he do so? Because I think you and RyanK are mafia, I will assume that this was him trying to distance himself from you while you attempt to make him look better than he has actually done with your 'very minor TR'.

Well, I feel like you're trying to distance yourself from innocentvillager as well, so innocentvillager and reso are both mafia. If you're not a mafia, reso, maybe you should notice by now how inaccurate this accusation is.

Going back to RyanK on this vote. First of all, that placement of the vote in this post is just plain weird. It's just weird. Really weird. Have I mentioned the word 'weird'? No? How weird.

Second, here, you try to use my own logic against me by trying to say that I'm distancing myself from IV, and therefore, IV and I must be scumbuddies. It doesn't matter who you were to vote for if that were true, they're both scum, right?

WRONG. I was the one attacking you and IV. The only thing IV had done is was label you as having a 'very minor TR'. If the both of us must be scumbuddies according to your reversal of my logic onto myself, why would you vote for the one that's given you a 'very minor TR', and not the one that's actually attacking you?

I upgrade my

Finger of Suspicion

to a

Fist of Suspicion

.

Why should I vote for someone because *insert a pronoun* attacked me and not because *insert a pronoun* is behaving scummy?

I've already expressed my reasons why I think you and IV are scum. However, when I try to view the situation from your point of view, I don't really see the same thing. Regardless of whatever side you are of, IV has given you a 'very minor TR'. So if I were you, I'd be like 'Woot.' But in comes this Reso guy and his reasoning and his form of logic accusing me of being scum. Given the circumstances, why would you vote for IV and not me? For what reasons did your scumdar ping on IV?

...
That is fine, posting a lot allows us a deeper look into who you are, its just unfortunate for you because your posts are revealing scummy behavior.

In response to some earlier conversations that I was too late to the game for:

I think Lynch policies are not going to be helpful to us, we just need to keep track of the scummiest behavior and vote for that.

Definite yes on avatars, really helps give a visual queue to keep track of everyone!

I have played 2-3 games on another site that were very noob friendly, but were a lot larger.

Other random thoughts: Would really like to hear a little more from 0x4 and rusty.

That's unfortunate, because I'm a townie.

Saying you're a townie doesn't really help all that much. Try arguing for

why

people should think you're a townie, instead of just stating that you are.

There is no clear evidence I'm a scum.

Thus, also no reason for people to believe me to be a scum.

But there is equally no evidence that you are a townie. But since you seem to have neglected this side of this same coin, this evidence must exist. Please point out where this evidence exists.

[reso]

I don't see it at all, in fact the fact that he thinks he's got the scumteam pinned from maybe one or two RVS interactions is laughable at best scummy at worst.

If you think my questions range from laughable to scummy, I would think it would be easy to dispute/discuss any, if not all, of my questions to you. But you instead chose to ignore them.

[reso]

My thought process for lines of attack in a game of mafia is that there is no such thing as a bad line of attack. Eventually, one will get through.

You probably have loads more experience to mafia games compared to me. Semi-dumb questions from your perspective should be easy for you to handle and answer and talk about. And yet you chose to ignore them. Did they unnerve you?

[reso]

How is scummy behavior even being revealed? This is a completely baseless accusation, after rereading it.

Continuing to use your previous logic against you, how is your townie behavior being revealed? In Post 158, 0x40 asked you how your reasoning in the post directly before his is town affiliation indicative, which you have simply ignored. When questions are asked, answers are expected. If one chooses to ignore them, that I see it as the person asking is right, and the person being questioned admitting that they are wrong. The same goes for you too, IV.

[reso]

I apologize for the slight absence.

...
WRONG. I was the one attacking you and IV. The only thing IV had done is was label you as having a 'very minor TR'. If the both of us must be scumbuddies according to your reversal of my logic onto myself, why would you vote for the one that's given you a 'very minor TR', and not the one that's actually attacking you?
...

...
I've already expressed my reasons why I think you and IV are scum. However, when I try to view the situation from your point of view, I don't really see the same thing. Regardless of whatever side you are of, IV has given you a 'very minor TR'. So if I were you, I'd be like 'Woot.' But in comes this Reso guy and his reasoning and his form of logic accusing me of being scum. Given the circumstances, why would you vote for IV and not me? For what reasons did your scumdar ping on IV?
...

VOTE: reso for inviting me to do this to it, twice.

The vote isn't quite as important as the fact that you decided to sidestep my question. Please answer the question in the second statement.

Though in the following post, you declared Maverick and Hiplop as your scum suspects. And yet you didn't change your vote to them? I realize that I've been pushing you about your vote in IV instead of me because of my pushing against the both of you, but when you have a list of scum suspects, shouldn't you be voting for them?

Wtf I never said anything about your questions?? I'm saying that your case on me/RyanK is based off of one or two RVS interactions, and you are just speculatively confbiasing off of that now whenever you see new evidence.

Then are you saying that my questions aren't worth answering because my accusation was, for lack of a better word, dumb?

I said it could be indicative of having played before, not that it's the only way to interpret his name. If he isn't a newbie, pretending to be one would make a lot of sense, as he could hammer and not always get lynched d2 for it.

I think you guys are starting to read a little bit too much into the name of someone.

I'm still wondering why there isn't more focus on Cobalt for trying to quietly push through a quickhammer and then, when it got fluffed up by an invalid vote, itrying to salvage it and score townpoints.

Cobalt, what were your reasons for putting Inno to L-1 in your #89? If people are really going to berate and even vote me for 'not explaining my vote' or whatever (I have) then they should also have reacted far, far more angrily to the hammer-that-never-was earlier.

You seem pretty sure that IV is innocent. I mean, you're going as far as just calling IV 'Inno'. It's still Day 1. The only ones that are allowed that kind of surety are the people that know they aren't innocent themselves.

UNVOTE: innocentvillager
VOTE: Maverick1102

Why weren't you scum-hunting? Feels pretty scummy to me.

What exactly is your definition of 'scum hunting'? 0x40 found weird wording and decided to push on it. It's honestly the only thing anyone can do at this point because it's still Day 1. What exactly are you expecting out of us?

[reso]

Reso, if you spell InnocentVillager's name, the word 'Inno' is an easy way to shorten it. Don't try to misrepresent what I'm saying.

.................*facepalm*

I don't know why I didn't see it that way. It's probably because everyone else has been referring to innocentvillager as IV, and not Inno. I am quite embarrassed about this turn of events. This is probably a good indication of now being a good time to go to sleep now.

[reso]

Forgot to unvote.

UNVOTE: Maverick1102

I'm going to sleep. The sun has just finished revealing itself. Slumber beckons me.

[reso]

4. reso
Reason: He seemed to be wondering why I didn't vote him when

I thought innocentvillager was more scummy than him.

But later, in my opinion, it isn't a reason that would get anywhere to prove if he's scum or not.

You contradicted yourself.

Voting innocent villager was actually a random vote. I didn't switch my vote to you because it is common for tounsfolk to suspect each other.

VOTE: RyanK

[reso]

I'll go ahead and say that to me, contradictions are worth a lynching no matter what is being talked about.

[reso]

Yes, it was a random vote. The vote remained because he was also behaving scummy.

That's not how I see. I read your more recent statement as you thought IV was more scummy than I was when you voted for him and not me.

Also, let's say what you say is correct, that your vote remained on IV because he was behaving scummy. You kept your vote on IV until Post #124, where you voted for Vaxkiller. When I questioned your explanation-less vote switch, you told me it was for the sake of 'poking him for reactions'. Why was a vote switch from someone who you thought was scummy to someone who hadn't even posted up to that point in time, that needed a poking, necessary? I question your priorities, and I feel like they are not towards scum hunting.

My vote is staying on you.

[reso]

that your vote remained on IV

because he was behaving scummy.

EBWoP: ....that your vote was random and it remained on IV...

[reso]

I apologize, but I will not be available for the rest of today. I won't necessarily be V/LA because I will definitely have computer and internet access, but something happened and I don't feel like any sort of mafia right now.

What happened? I got banned from church because I undermined a youth leader when we got into an argument and I came out on top. I'm done with church.

[reso]

Yes. I'm not convinced of anyone being scum,

To me, this means your playing the field. That said, I'm really worried about rusty, he has almost zero posts, 2 of those are random votes, then everyone gets suspicious of him, and he goes completely silent, and everyone forgets about him.... RyanK mentioned it earlier, He HAS visited since then, but I think he is afraid to post anything.

Rusty, come in dude! Give us your thoughts!

It's not that I forgot about Rusty. If this is truly his first game, then after the way he was briefly lashed out for that pseudo-quickhammer, I thought he would abandon the game. I know I fucked up in my very first game on MafiaScum not quite in the same way but in an extremely noobie way nonetheless, and I was lashed out at in a similar fashion and I choose to immediately stop coming to this site for a short period of time.

"_____ is scum."

Hard stance, and confidence.

ITS A SAYING

First off, he used the words "

has to

be scum," which is the same as stating that he is 100% confident. He couldn't possibly be 100% confident unless he has evidence that disproves every single possibility where RyanK isn't scum. It is very different from someone stating that "person x is probably scum," or "person x

ought to

be scum," which you seem to believe can somehow have the same meaning as what he said?

Forgive me for intruding, but I disagree that using "has to be scum" is an indication of 100% confidence AKA surety. If surety were the case, wouldn't "I'm sure he is scum" be better wording?. By using 'has to be scum', to me, he implies that he has strong enough belief and confidence in that idea that we is willing to stand by it, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is sure of it.

0x40, you are very tunneled right now. Like extremely.

[reso]

I apologize but I will be V/LA for a short period of time. Again, I do have access to the internet and a computer. But I've just had dental surgery (just had a rod put in for an implant). So I'm on painkillers and slightly doozy, or in constant pain and unable to focus on anything as a result. Just give me a day to recuperate.

[reso]

Okay, guys, I'm feeling much better, or I've gotten used to the feeling of having a metal rod in my jawline.

I'll get to work on what I think about everyone so far individually. I would prefer Vedith post his thoughts on his game first, so I will leave any opinion of him for last.

[reso]

And a quick reminder that the deadline is this Sunday.

[reso]

I'll start with RyanK, I guess. He's been the easiest person to read this game so far.

While going through RyanK's ISO, I actually found his Post #193/Iso #52 pretty interesting, because of how I typically perceive how Newbie games are set up. I am of the understanding that the mafia is typically composed one experienced player and one newer player so the experienced player can more or less guide/teach the newbie on mafia play. I think it's also worth pointing out that, with the exception of his vote on me in Post #180/Iso #42 (because I more or less goaded him into it) and Vaxkiller in Post #124/Iso #26 (for the sake of a reaction????), all of his votes and actual suspicions up to this point were for either the IC or the SE's. If I were the mafia, the easy way to win a newbie game would be to first slow down the amount of useful information getting into the thread, and the easiest way to do that would be to get rid of those with the experience. Also worth noting, it took a 12 post period of time for him to voice who he thought was scum and actually voting for said scum suspects.

And he goes and does a decent amount of analyzing and countering and scum searching afterwards, but then we get to his #381/Iso #101:

VOTE: innocentvillager. Random voting again.

You did a great deal of arguing and conversing, and you just don't have leads or thoughts about anyone??? And so you resort to random voting again??? You even made a list of who is most likely to be scum in Post #303/Iso #82, and you still revert to 'random voting'? This is most questionable indeed. Also worth noting that all of your 'random' votes have been of IV (except for that very first one, but you quickly switched to a vote for IV in the post after).

[reso]

0x40 spent a lot of time arguing about the scummyness of Vaxkiller based off Vax's use of 'has to be'. I've already stated my opinion on this topic. And I still think it was an incredible case of tunneling. It's made making a case against him harder because there was just so much on this topic alone.

In his Post #396, he lists his scumspects. I understand that 0x40 and PhantomCobalt had butted against each other quite a lot in the argument of Vax's wording, but I haven't noticed any other significant reasons for 0x40 suspecting PhantomCobalt. 0x40, please point these other reasons if they exist.


*stares at Phantom and Maverick*
I AM ABSOLUTELY SAVING YOU TWO FOR second LAST.
My head hurts even more just thinking about it.

[reso]

I have nullreads for Vaxkiller, hiplop, and innocentvillager. I don't think that activity (or a lack of) is very AI. There's really not much the contributions of Vaxkiller and hiplop to talk about.

While IV does have more to talk about, it really doesn't feel like much more. He's ignored the majority of my questions regarding what I thought of my link of RyanK between himself. I still think his Post #70/Iso #10 is weird. He has more coming up, so I can for that to come out.

[reso]

~PhantomCobalt~
In Post #46/Iso #11, you explain that 'experienced players never over react to RVS wagons', but then in Post #89/Iso #20, you vote for IV's 'forced' reaction to his wagon. How exactly were you expecting him to react? What exactly is the difference between a forced reaction and an overreaction? Because the way I'm looking at it, all overreactions are forced reactions, but not all forced reactions are overreactions.

And then the Rusty Quickhammer scandal happened, which I'm honestly willing to look past. No one is perfect, and people make mistakes.

(And thus I employ a three-strike system, which I use in general, for such serious mistakes. This is a newbie game, and so people are willing to learn to play the game, but it is a game nonetheless, so if someone continues to fuck it up, then I am very willing to let them go. I didn't know that policy lynches were a bad idea for Newbie games, cut me some slack, Vedith. It's been a very long time since I've done a Newbie game on Mafiascum, hence why I'm one of the 'newbies'.)

Argues with 0x40 on wording. Votes for Maverick because of weak logic (I feel like everyone relies on weak logic to a certain extent Day 1, but I will be judging that afterward I'm done with staring at your posts). Continues to argue 0x40 a bit more, then proceeds to claim that he is townie because whenever he get's lynched Day 1, he's a townie, and posts some statistics as true. I'm honestly not a bit fan of this. For all I care, you could have been cherry picking your statistics, and so I'll go stare at your previous games later because you certainly don't have a wiki page to keep track of your games. I still don't know how serious you were trying to be with this stunt even with you 3 - 4/10 seriousness level.

Post #326/Iso #50 is his list of reads. I'm just going to post it here, because it's easier to reference like so:

reso, Strong town - Good logic and active scumhunting, and the lack of anything scummy

0x40, scum lean - Actively scumhunting, which is good, but with terrible logic that he thinks is okay

Rusty, scum lean - Mostly fluff, VI

Vaxkiller, very small townlean - want to see more from him

RyanK, nulltown - My opinion keeps changing on him, very vote jumpy

innocentvillager, scumlean - Earlier posts make me think scum, but later ones show very genuine reactions

Maverick1102, scumlean - Tunneling, weak logic, doesn't read and just skims then makes accusations

hiplop, scum - Lurking

My lynch candidates for today:
0x40, hiplop

VOTE: hiplop

Some interesting things in here. Previously, you were voting for Maverick for... well... the reasons you stated in this post. But at what point did the inactivity of hiplop become so great and noticeable that he became more scummy that Maverick. Hiplop has been inactive in general for the entirety of the game to this point, so I'm not really seeing a 'when'. Second, your lynch suspects for the day are 0x40 and hiplop. Why is 0x40 in there over Maverick? If they both have weak/terrible logic, wouldn't you want the person that is 'actively scumhunting' alive over the one that 'doesn't read and just skims then makes accusations'?

Argues with 0x40 AGAIN for the same reason as before.

In Post #387/Iso #65 you vote for Vedith, and in Post 409/Iso #72, you explained your vote on Rusty/Vedith. I don't agree with any of your reasons for your vote on Vedith. I don't like #1 because Rusty's Quickhammer/Bunny vote felt like a very newbie thing to do. Hiplop even goes as far to mention in Post #116/Iso #2 that these sort of incidents happen a 'shockingly large amount' in Newbie games, So, I gave him a bye in the form of a strike and not a vote in my case. I don't like your #2 primarily because of my own experience in my first game. I was a Vanilla Townie in that game, and I did something dumb, got called out for it, and I eventually abandoned the game. The same could be said of Rusty, so I don't see his 'flaking', to be scum AI. And your #3 is weird because you've previously stated in your reads list that your lynch candidates for today are 0x40 and hiplop, and Rusty with only a scumlean because of fluffposting and being a VI. You've more or less decided up to this point that Maverick couldn't possibly be scum. Hiplop is still very inactive, and your relationship with 0x40 doesn't seem to have changed much to this point. If you aren't voting for hiplop, then you must be voting for 0x40 via Process of Elimination, but that clearly isn't the case. Other than seeing the Maverick scum-to-town switch, I'm not exactly seeing this second switch of 0x40 that you were talking about, so please point this out. But in any case, what about Rusty/Vedith changed between your list of reads and your vote and case that you were willing to vote for him over hiplop, especially since you decided to quote your own list where it states that Rusty/Vedith is listed as a scumlean whereas hiplop is listed as scum?

[reso]

I'm getting rather sick of the double standards in this game.

Cobalt puts someone at L-1, doesn't draw attention to it hoping someone will hammer and it very (very) nearly works but for a fluffed vote and a technicality in the rules.

I put someone at L-2, I draw attention to when it progresses to L-1 and I ask for intent to hammer and all of a sudden I'm scum?

Cobalt quickly backtracks (having no conviction in his vote-SCUM) and looks to earn townpoints by looking about for ways to not have the hammer apply (eventually settling on the same rule quote I do) and somehow succeeds.

I vote a legitimate scumread, ask for more votes, ask for intent to hammer and a claim and yet somehow I'm scummy for it?

First of all, you never put someone at L-2. Your only vote you've had to this point was your RVS (and thus not 'legitimate') vote of PhantomCobalt, which put him to L-4, which you've kept to this point as well. Then came IV's #106/Iso #12, and then RyanK's #222/Iso #64. And that's the highest it gets because RyanK unvotes in #255. I am not counting Rusty's RVS Post/#26 vote nor his #35 vote. Only if Rusty's vote were included would it have been possible for PhantomCobalt to be L-1. I find it questionable that you were able to accept Rusty's fakehammer as illegitimate, but proceed to include his vote onto the PhantomCobalt wagon.

And what double standards? The most anyone said about your vote was PhantomCobalt's #169, and then your vote went largely unnoticed because of the RyanK 'there is not scummy evidence against me' argument and the Vaxkiller's wording argument.

Your vote was not legitmate because it was initially an RVS vote. You didn't ask for more votes. In Post #168, you say that you are happy with you vote, and ask for people to state why they aren't joining you on the PhantomCobalt wagon, despite not having done anything convince anyone else to join you up to that point, such as typing up a case for us. RyanK does vote you because of your calling for an intent to hammer, but you were able to quickly convince on why you think it's a good idea. I called you out on an admittedly dumber-than-dumb reason, which I then jumped off after you explained it so. And PhantomCobalt jumps on for reasons of weak logic (and a little bit of OMGUS, I'm willing to believe). So 1/3 of the people that voted for you on that intent to hammer and claim.

If anybody thinks scum isn't on my wagon (cough COBALT cough) then you seriously need to walk away, give your head a wobble to make sure it's screwed on, then return to the game and vote for Cobalt. I'm seriously getting frustrated that scum is pulling so hard on town's strings here.

BTW, fuck you too. What's with the personal attack against anyone not voting for Cobalt? 'Walk away, give your head a wobble to makes sure it's screwed on, then return to the game and vote for Cobalt'? Might as well just have said that anyone not on the Cobalt wagon is dumb and not right in the head, because it would have been easier for us dumb folk to understand what you are saying.

Your scumminess needs fixing. With a lynch. I don't care if I'm tunnelled, I'm tunnelled on scum.

Let's talk about double standards. in Post #253/Iso #19, you call out 0x40 for being tunneled and tell him to stop it because it's distracting. But as soon as you do it, it's completely fine? Get off your high horse.

That's a wild switch. Ryan why have you gone from seemingly scumreading Cobalt in your #350 and pushing on him, to suddenly scumreading me for calling for votes on my #1 scumread which I have held ALL DAY and explained at least once in full.

Seems rather odd, no?

Look, every post I've made that displays my case. I'm not rewording it for those who are too lazy to reread it.

Still don't understand why couldn't have reworded it, and presented in one summarized post. If it meant helping the town, why didn't you just do it? It seems to me that you'd rather put getting your agenda through more important than helping the town and convincing them to join your cause. If you want the town to join your side, then yeah, you have to work a little extra. Not insult them for not voting for the person you're voting for nor for not thinking the way you think (Post #360/Iso #30, Post #400/Iso #35).

[reso]

It seems to me that you'd rather put getting your agenda through more important than helping...

EBWoP: "It seems to me that you find putting your agenda through and in action more important than helping..."

[reso]

So, I still don't have much, if anything, to post about Vedith. So, I'll just start by posting his thoughts about me.

reso

- I feel the reaction to the L1 was over exaggerated. What I didn't like though, was

the voting before hand

and putting RyanK and IV as his suspects with the impression that he doesn't care who is lynched from them.

First of all, I don't quite understand the wording of the bold. Because in my Post #64/Iso #5, I explain my reasoning and vote afterwards, and not before. There are follow up inquiries about my reason and answer them as them. But that shouldn't be counted as my reasoning after my vote.

And I did show care for who I'd rather see lynched first, and a secondary reason why. I don't know what you are looking at exactly.

The reasoning was bad as well, because he used him in an example. I didn't feel that he was trying to pressure with his vote, so I'm not sure what he was hoping for by voting other than looking town.

I agree that my reasoning is bad here. I feel like to try and get out of RVS, someone has to go out of their own way to attack someone in a weird way, so I decided to go out on a limb and attack something that I felt was a possible scum slip. Before this post, the game was stuck in a state of RVS/RQS and theory-questioning. And afterwards, discussion about the actual game at hand started to flow. I may have gotten a bit aggressive, but you are right in that I was not trying to pressure anyone with this vote.

His stops voting IV (keeping in mind he barley mentions him, even though his vote is still on IV) and turns to Maverick briefly.

My vote on Maverick.... was serious, but admittedly dumber-than-dumb. IN MY DEFENSE, everyone else beforehand referred to innocentvillager as IV, and at the other forum that I play at, innocents are referred to as 'inno'. I was just being a dumb.

Giving a 3 strike policy lynch rule is terrible and anti town. Policy lynches are always anti town imo (Go on, challenge me with that comment!).

I agree with you that Policy Lynches are always anti-town, but only so in the statistical sense, that there will always be more town than there are scum. I don't lynch by policy for the sake for the sake of the town. I do so for the sake of the game. If a player does some bad in general game-wise, I will call them out on it, but if said player continues their bad general play and/or behavior, then I will happily vote to get rid of them.

Example: one of my most recent finished games was a 45-man literal-day period chocolate game. There were many lurkers and the mods could not find enough subs. Mass mod-killing would have broken the game, so we instead opted to regularly policy lynch the lurkers and inactives. It also allowed for extending discussion time. While the majority of those that were PL'd were town, there were some scum that were PL'd as well.

I use policy lynches for the sake of the game, not for the sake of the town.

If he was that angry, he would gave pressured instead of giving out a warning.

I chose to give a warning instead of extreme pressuring because this is a NEWBIE GAME. A game where newbies come to learn to play the game. Looking at Rusty's previous posts, it was evident that he was a bonafide newbie. I did not want to scare him away like what happened in my own first game, so I gave him a warning instead of further pressuring.

Hammering so soon in the day is a strong scum tell generally(I don't believe that he realised it was a hammer).

Can this also be said for newbies?

[reso]

Waaaaaall of text. Okay yeah I'll read that when I have time but you votecounts are off - Hiplop was also on the cobalt wagon if memory serves have a look.

Ah, yes. It does seem I have missed hiplop's vote in #173/Iso #6. So the PhantomCobalt wagon does indeed get up to L-1.

With the exception of the vote count in that post, nothing else is changed by this information screw-up.

[reso]

Any last words before I place the hammer vote, PhantomCobalt?

OI.

You're going to hammer at a time when people aren't very available, and before he's had a chance to retort to any following criticism?

[reso]

From his posts, he is typically actively starting in 12 hours and you asking him NOW if he has last words?

[reso]

PhantomCobalt, please make a statement in (expired on 2016-07-29 19:34:31) or I'll quickhammer you.

A quickhammer is when you hammer without stating your intent to do so. You've expressed your intent to hammer, and even given a time frame as well. Your just doing a regular hammer.

[reso]

Some interesting things in here. Previously, you were voting for Maverick for... well... the reasons you stated in this post. But at what point did the inactivity of hiplop become so great and noticeable that he became more scummy that Maverick. Hiplop has been inactive in general for the entirety of the game to this point, so I'm not really seeing a 'when'. Second, your lynch suspects for the day are 0x40 and hiplop. Why is 0x40 in there over Maverick? If they both have weak/terrible logic, wouldn't you want the person that is 'actively scumhunting' alive over the one that 'doesn't read and just skims then makes accusations'?

I do have reasons. I hope I haven't been too absent, but it is partly intentional. I am trying to keep my reads fairly transparent, anyway.

I don't quite understand what you are doing by answering to my analysis of PhantomCobalt in this quote and my Maverick analysis in the next post.

[reso]

Oh wait, no. That second post was from Vedith's post, and the way you quoted it, it made it look like I was the one quoting it.

[reso]

Well, the end of the night is drawing near and since I've done what I can with my reads, I'll post my scumdar list (or lack of, I suppose):

hiplop, innocentvillager, Vaxkiller, and Vedith are all nullreads, just purely on the fact that they haven't done enough posting for me to look at. Hiplop has mentioned that while he does have a scumread on Phantom, he'd like us to hold off on the hammer because he's doing research first, and so I'm hoping he will post his results from that. We're still waiting for IV to pull through with his thoughts of what has transpired during his absence. Vedith gets a bye for having just recently joined the game.

But Vaxkiller has no excuse. I saw his post about Phantom's 'TvT' post and WIFOM analysis, but there wasn't much I could apply to the person that is Vaxkiller. On a reread of his ISO, his #362/Iso #14 did pop up at me because he considered some possibilities that could have happened if PhantomCobalt was scum, but no possibilities of Phantom being town. Some level of tunneling exists there.

___

I don't have a scum list per say, but I do have list of offenses. Maverick is present on the chopping block for being uncooperative with town and blowing up the PhantomCobalt case out of proportion, where RyanK and PhantomCobalt are also on the block for inconsistent reasoning and actions.

Maverick has 3 counts of making personal attacks on people for not thinking the way he does and not voting for the same person as he is. He also is a master of double standards with him calling out 0x40 for his tunneling, telling him to stop because it's distracting, and then later proceeding to proclaim that he is tunneling PhantomCobalt. His blatant tunneling and overreaction to the 'reaction' of his 'call for an intent to hammer and claim' blows up the greatness of PhantomCobalt's faults despite a relatively quiet wagon (with the exception of Maverick, of course). Either he is not reading the same game I am looking at right now, or he is intentionally doing this. Also, I was looking at this post again:

Cobalt quickly backtracks (having no conviction in his vote-SCUM) and looks to earn townpoints by

looking about for ways to not have the hammer apply (eventually settling on the same rule quote I do)

and somehow succeeds.

And I just want to ask. "Why is 'settling on the same rule quote that you did' is a circumstance that makes PhantomCobalt look scummy?" Because if I recall, the only rule quote at that point in time was our Dragon God GM Firekiller's Post #99. It didn't matter if PhantomCobalt was Town or Scum. The GM's word is law. And so I ask again, why is 'settling on the same rule quote that you did' is a circumstance that makes PhantomCobalt look scummy?

As for the choice between RyanK and PhantomCobalt, I would choose to vote for RyanK over PhantomCobalt. I feel like RyanK has been more inconsistent and considerably more unpredictable than PhantomCobalt has been. However, despite their inconsistencies, I feel like neither of them will flip scum.

UNVOTE: RyanK
VOTE: Maverick1102

---

0x40 has been my only read leaning town so far. I'd like to look at 0x40's case on Vaxkiller the way hiplop looked at my very first vote on Maverick on the usage of the word 'Inno' to refer to IV. 0x40 just looks like a super excited player. Just take the excitement level from that initial Maverick1102 post, and stretch it on top of 0x40's 'has to be scum' discussion. Also..... could you explain to me how exactly you are putting on a quantitative quality on how certain you are that someone is going to turn up scum or town? Because that is incredibly beyond me.

[reso]

I'll shorten Reso's argument for you all:

I don't like Ox40 tunnelling on people who I thought at that point were town, but I'd be more than happy if they were to tunnel on my scumread. I'm strong in how I approach my case about my scumread, I push hard and apparently I'm unco-operative with town? I hardly agree.

But the reasoning behind the quote is such a bad misrepresentation. The point was that Cobalt had no conviction in his vote, and worried that he'd be accused of scumhood for allowing a quickhammer to happen (townpoints for IV for this btw) quickly backtracked to look like he'd valiantly tried to save the day. That they settled on the same rule that I did is a moot point, I was simply recalling the events for people. (You know, that whole co-operating with town thing).

That is such a forced vote and the fact that you give yourself a disclaimer at the start of that 'this isn't a scum list' reeks.

Genuinely considering changing my vote.

That post was made with reference to my previous analysis of you, my #457, which you said that you would read if you have the time. I can understand your perspective, but only if you've read my previous post and not my #457 as well. Deal with the wall of text, you lazy bum.

Also..... could you explain to me how exactly you are putting on a quantitative quality on how certain you are that someone is going to turn up scum or town? Because that is incredibly beyond me.

It's simple. I know that I'm town, and there are 8 other players, which means that from my point of view, there has to be 2 scum among those 8 players.
Probability of any of those players being scum = 8 / 2 = 0.25, or 25%. When someone does something scummy/towny, it increases the probability of that person being scum/town by an amount based mostly on statistics and educated guesses, and slightly decreases everyone else's probability of being scum/town because that's how math and probability works. I think giving actual numbers, even if they are far from perfectly accurate, is much better than being needlessly vague with wording like "likely scum," "very likely scum," or "somewhat likely scum." For example, when Marverick1102 said that he'd be surprised if PhantomCobalt flipped town, does that mean he thinks it's about 20% likely he'll flip town, or 1% likely he'll flip town? His wording could easily be stretched to mean either, but one of those numbers is twenty times larger than the other.

Alright, I'm gonna hammer PhantomCobalt unless there are any objections. Also, before I do, I would like to hear from everyone what they think the percentage probability of PhantomCobalt flipping scum after being lynched.

As for me, I'm about 40% sure he'll flip scum.

From where exactly do you pull the number 40% then?

[reso]

It's pretty close to the end of Day 1, and I know I initially brought it up, BUT ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUSLY GOING TO SPEND TIME TALKING ABOUT THE SEMANTICS OF NUMBER PERCENTAGES AND THE FEELING OF USING WORDS???

[reso]

My post is basically saying that Reso can't be scum if you're town,

but can be scum if you're scum

. What's your view on it?

FTFY.

[reso]

What's your excuse for lying?

But Vaxkiller has no excuse. I saw his post about Phantom's 'TvT' post and WIFOM analysis, but there wasn't much I could apply to the person that is Vaxkiller. On a reread of his ISO, his #362/Iso #14 did pop up at me because he considered some possibilities that could have happened if PhantomCobalt was scum, but no possibilities of Phantom being town. Some level of tunneling exists there.

Uhhhh, yes I did...

The only other option is he is town and like he said, he "forgot" how many people had already voted.

That was not a lie. That was genuinely a misread. I apologize for this mistake.

[reso]

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

hiplop and IV haven't posted yet, and you still chose to hammer. I know that you gave us a deadline, but you didn't even give hiplop and IV a chance. Hopefully, they'll be back before Firebringer is.

[reso]

I'd honestly like to see some more substantial from hiplop and IV at the moment (no offense, IV) before any other discussion really happens.

Hiplop had that research thing going on and thus asked for the PhantomCobalt hammer to be delayed. Like we seriously IV, well, you've been officially out of V/LA since Monday(??? my memory is fuzzy right now), and have promised content which never happened because either it never happened and/or RyanK's hammer made it not happen (again, no offense). I understand that RL matter always take precedence, but I would have prefer if you extended your V/LA period if that was the case. Kinda left us hanging a bit.


I personally find 0x40's death interesting. For the majority of Day 1, he spent the majority of the day tunneled on Vaxkiller, but at the very end, he played an untunneled game. Would his fate have been different if he had stayed tunneled on Vaxkiller? To me, this possibility makes Vaxkiller seem less likely to be scum, but not necessarily more likely to be town.

[reso]

EBWoP:

some more substantial

'... something more substantial..."

Like we seriously IV, well

'Like, we seriously need hiplop in the game right. Barely any activity. IV, well...;

[reso]

Mav is making me feel uncomfortable with his tunneling, but not sure if its confbias (whether right or wrong) or scum baiting a mislynch.

Maverick1102 was wrong and may be a scum baiting and successfully caused a mislynch. VOTE: Maverick1102

Technically, while Maverick certainly spent the greatest amount of time arguing for the lynching of PhantomCobalt, his vote has been on Phantom since RVS. You, on the other hand, decided to place the hammering vote and denies hiplop and IV the opportunity to express themselves if they were going to do so, because I was very much expecting something from them. Arguable, it was you that caused the mislynch for having dealt the finishing blow without taking into consideration the discussion circumstances.

[reso]

I apologize for the lack of activity. My internet has been very jittery as of late. I would type up a post, and the internet would go down around when I try to submit it. It's seems to have be stablized at the moment, but who knows what state it will be in a couple of hours. Another reason why I should be typing these sort of thing in Wordpad before bringing it onto the site.

I've previously mentioned in my #585 that I don't think that Vaxkiller is scum. It's more or less the same reason as Maverick's #589. For the same sort of reason, just with a different set of people, I think Maverick isn't scum because I am still alive. The end of Day 1 ended with me being particular biased against Maverick, especially for this general Day 1 attitude against people that didn't think the way he did. I think it would be fair to say that if Cobalt flipped town, it would have easy to assume that I would continue to go after Maverick. I realize that both the Vaxkiller not-scum and the Maverick not-scum are WIFOM arguments, but I think arguing about the WIFOM nature of such arguments are a moot point, so I decide to go with one side of the argument and deal with the consequences afterwards.

I think my vote will be on RyanK this day as well. Looking at his patterns, it's clear that he lacks conviction with most of his votes because he's so wishy-washy wtih where he places them. The one post with conviction, the Cobalt hammer, was done so without taking into consideration the requests put forth by the IC (though I realize that RyanK had initially used a timer for a deadline of the hammer). It seems to me that he was also aware of me thinking the Cobalt case was blown out of proportion, as he reflects to in his #581. I get the feeling he choose to play the vote-precautionary-safe townie whenever he can, and then not when it better suits the situation. It was the same for today as well. Hiplop got to L-1. Everyone here knows better than to quickhammer, and even then he pulls his vote off of hiplop. Can also be perceived as an unwilling to trust the general populace.

As usual, there's still not much from hiplop and IV. And for IV, we're going to have to wait until Monday. I honestly would like to see the both of them replaced instead of us having to wait (no offense, guys).

I don't have anything on Vedith at the moment. I haven't done a readthrough on him yet. I will try to follow up with it either later today or tomorrow. But I do have some things for Vedith to answer or look at.

1) Could you explain your reasoning of 'If Phantom is town, then Reso is probably town' from #497? Initially, I took it for granted, but looking back at it, I'm not understanding your reasoning. Could you elaborate on this?

2) In your #588, you mentioned that RyanK gave Phantom a chance to look town, and Phantom didn't take it. I'm disagree and am inclined to think that Phantom simply gave up. My reasoning for this is 0x40's #449:

So you're going to hammer me even though you think I'll flip town? The fuck

Yeah. A d1 40% scum lynch is pretty good in my opinion. Does anyone know what the average for d1 scum lynches here on MS is?

People were going to lynch him even if some/one of them thought there was a better chance of him flipping town. If I were going to be lynched for that same sort of reason, I'd just give up as well.

VOTE: RyanK

[reso]

I mean despite it's a better way to play as I wouldn't be persuaded by scum, what if the theories were from a scum? It's a recipe for disaster in that situation.

BUT that's the THING about conviction. We don't know who is scum nor who is town, so we have to go with what we think is right given the reasonings that we have. You could be listening to the perfectly helpful person only to find out at the end of the game that you've been backstabbed by that same person who was actually scum (The Too Townie Fallacy). The only thing you know for sure is what alignment you are of. I understand the desire for balance, but without this conviction, not only are you going to walked over by scum but town as well.

You have mentioned that hiplop and IV are your scumspects. Of them, who do you think is the more scummiest, and why?

[reso]

Hiplop as he lied about how often he's posting. Also, his post before the PhantomCobalt lynch seemed to be suggesting he would prefer a lynch. Thanks for helping out.

innocentvillager has only a very minor accusation, so it's less likely.

If hiplop is more scummy to you than IV, then what was the point of jumping off as soon as hiplop got to L-1? Pressure is almost always a good thing, unless it's tunneling. Again I bring up conviction, which you just don't have any of, not even to your own thoughts (Please remember that hiplop is currently L-1 right now). Personally, I find a lack of conviction to be a sign of being scum. Because scum know exactly who is town, a scum might not know how a vote on someone might look like, so they might jump here and there and then maybe here again, which is what have done so far.

@reso, what are your thoughts on innocentvillager and hiplop?

Again, I have a nullread on IV. I don't feel like there's anything noteworthy from IV so far. I am a bit irked at how he decided to ignore my questions in D1, but that's more of a personal vendetta than a read.

I would feel the same about hiplop, but he's been incredibly vague about the details he's decided to share with us, and his continued insistence to delay his thoughts continue to screw with the game. At the very least, IV gave us a V/LA notice for why he's not available until Monday, but hiplop just tells us 'tomorrow' and disappears into... wherever he came from. I don't find passive lurking to be particularly AI, but active lurking is pretty scummy, or at the very least, very very anti-town.

A clarification because I've realized I've been doing it in this game: To me, anti-scum doesn't necessarily town, and anti-town doesn't necessarily mean scum. It's hard for me to explain, but that is a system I seem to regularly employ.

[reso]

I think that you have a lack of conviction because you think that hiplop is more scummy than IV, but despite that, as soon as hiplop got to L-1, you jumped off as fast as pretty much the next post happened, and decided to vote for IV instead, despite who you think is more scummy. Please remember that that your scum suspects list, of hiplop then IV, is yours and yours alone. If you aren't willing to follow your own list, then yeah, that looks like a lack of conviction to me.

'Risking a mislynch' is a moot reason because whenever the town votes, town is always risking a mislynch because town never has the full details. It's not even worth mentioning because that risk is always apparent.

It's also clear to me that you have a lack of any sort of trust of us. We are not Rusty, as in the player that Vedith replaced. We are smarter than trying to hammer without stating any intent to do so. But despite this apparent knowledge, you choose to not take the gamble of L-1 and jump ship instead. The majority of us are town. You are not trusting of a mostly town crowd. Could you possibly be scum refusing to trust town counterparts?

[reso]

I'd really like you to explain this.

Tomorrow.

o________o

y u maek promise and break? bro, totes not kewl.

I'm jumping off a cliff now, for talking in the style that I did. BNRB. But seriously. Where you at?

[reso]

Do we at least want to wait until tomorrow, which is when IV returns to the game (hopefully)? I'm willing to make Monday the final deadline for the both of them.

I'm going out to meet a friend, and I won't be back until late at night. US west coast, by the way. If there has been discussion about my proposed deadline and the general consensus agrees on a Monday deadline for both hiplop and IV, I will wait until then, but if there hasn't been said discussion, I am willing to hammer hiplop when I come back from my day with my friend.

It really irks me that, when it comes down to it, a policy lynch for lack of attendance is going to be happening to the IC of all people. I feel like there won't be much gained from PL'ing hiplop, even if he turns out to be scum. As previously stated during RQS(?), I don't like a lack of attendance is a sign of scum, but just a sign of bad play. As such, because of a lack of interaction with others, even if he does turn out to be scum, what info would we get out it doing a hiplop PL?

Most important, please discuss the possibility of the Monday deadline, and I will be back later today. PEACE.

[reso]

Hmmm... Okay. I can understand that reasoning. I can stand by it as well. It never occurred to me that that is another way of looking a lack of attendance/playing (I realize that you just said that his attendance isn't what makes him scummy, but this is just a way for me to simplify it in my head). Your thoughts on the Monday deadline?

[reso]

I have declared intent. If people are in disagree with the Monday deadline, I will hammer hiplop when I come back from my visit (which I am now late for T_T). If even by the end of Monday, hiplop does not contribute, I will hammer hiplop, even if IV does contribute.

[reso]

If there is conversation happening with either HipLop or IV when you go to hammer, just don't hammer.

My POV on this was that even if there was discussion and even then hiplop was not contributing, then he might as well be disposed of.

[reso]

I said game day. As in like Day 3

Are you seriously suggesting that we should give you a bye for the entirety of Day 2, considering that even to this point, you are the IC of this game and for the most part, you've been extremely quiet and thus un-helpful with the progression of this game?

My reads are transparent, its obvious what I think on the game.

I would beg to differ.

In Post #372, you thought that Vaxkiller was scum, but failed to 'find the words as to why'. Until your most recent vote onto Vaxkiller, you've been unable to give us a reason as to why you thought Vax was scum until then.

In Post #485, you claimed to have a scumread on Phantom, and also claimed that you think that Maverick's case was pretty airtight (not so much anymore). You relied on the words of another individual (Maverick) to explain your reason, thus masking your own intentions/reasonings. I try to make my own posts about my reasons even if that means saying something that's already been said before. At least then, I can claim my words as my own.

[reso]

While your reads may have been clear, the reasoning behind them have been anything but.

[reso]

IV was an obvious lynch target, I did what i could to take that target off his back.

I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see this. Could you point this out to me? As a reminder, Day 1 mostly consisted of 0x40's case on Vax's use of the word 'has' and Maverick's case on PhantomCobalt. For the most part, IV sort of disappeared into nothingness, but at least he had the decency to announce V/LA's when he was going to be gone for long durations of time, and thus has an alibi for his extended absence (IV, please talk today T_T).

I spent the better majority of this night staring your posts, and honeslty, I just can't get a decipherable solid read on you. I'm going to devote tomorrow (today??? technically it's 2:30 here) to solely analyzing you.

[reso]

Well then. here I go. A hiplop thing.

VOTE: cobalt.

Interested in this.

I found this vote on Cobalt rather interesting. You chose not to disclose any reason, but rather express your interest in the wagon. This tells me that at the time, you did not have a read on Cobalt, but instead chose to jump on the wagon to see what happens. In your following Post #301, roughly 1 day and 2.5 hours later, you exclaim that Vaxkiller is your second guess for scum, so I assumed PhantomCobalt was your first choice. Even in this post, you did not declare any reasonings to your vote on PhantomCobalt.

I do have reasons. I hope I haven't been too absent,

but it is partly intentional.

I am trying to keep my reads fairly transparent, anyway.

Would prefer to remain quiet on that for now

I'd really like you to explain this.

Tomorrow.

Allow me to bring up one of your very first posts in this game.

A lot of scumhunting has to do with understanding perspectives of where a person is coming from

Right now, I and neither does most of everyone else understands your perspective. You are intentionally not participating regularly, choosing to continuously withhold information, and have asked us to give you a pass until Day 3 on a whim despite having done nothing to warrant it. Of the things you have talked about were theory and gamesense, but you've been vague on where exactly you stand with your lack of reason (which you've said, that you'll work on that, but even now... nothing). To me, it looks like you are hiding something, which tells me that you are either the Cop or you are a mafioso with the knowledge of your partner. I have stated before that I don't find a lack of participation to be AI, but rather anti-game. HOWEVER, I do find active lurking, an active lack of participation, choosing to read and not post, very scummy, and so I do view you as scum at the moment.

Not going to lie, part of the muted posting has been a sort of fesr of getting nightkilled. Happens a lot recently and its no fun :+

Not going to lie, it's no fun dealing with someone who refuses to participate regularly.

At the very minimum, multiple people were suspecting innocent. If I'm looking to get attention off me, I'd be more likely to throw attention onto someone else than try to eviscerate it

POINT. THIS. OUT. TO. ME. Don't throw out a blanket statement. Give me posts. Give me linked quotes. Give me your backed PERSPECTIVE.

[reso]

Only Scum!Hiplop could know IV's alignment and 'clear' him.

Maybe you should add three extra words to that sentence, which are," for no reason." If there is a reason, it should be fine.

If there is a reason, maybe he should be explaining his PERSPECTIVE (yes, I am going to using and capping this word for the rest of this game) to us. If he does, then there is still a problem.

Oh, because I forgot to do so in my previous post, VOTE: hiplop
That should be

L-1

, folks.

[reso]

You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.

Here is his complete statement:

5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?
Hmmm... I try to shake things up. Especially once your meta becomes known being able to adapt both is super important. I think I've played too many games for their to a concrete answer to either of these? I tend to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I prefer the Mafia alignment, though, so I tend to put a little more effort in.

You're right in that he has stated that he 'tends to put a little more effort in' (you over-exaggerated it; why choose to over-exaggerate than simply tell it as it is? At the moment, I perceive this as an indirect AoE). But before that statement, he's also said he tends to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I would have loved to see this 'aggressive'-ness, but instead we get what you have described him as, 'very lazy-experienced'. I agree that he doesn't give a fuck about this game. He's being anti-game, and want him to get his act in order. I want to see his Beast-mode.

[reso]

I honestly don't care if his 'Beast-mode' rips me a new asshole open. In this game of learning, tough love is always good love. I. WANT. TO SEE. THIS. BEAST-MODE.

[reso]

RL & AoE.

RL: real life (I'm going to assume you spend a lot of time off the computer if you don't know this one)

AoE is a mistake. It should of been 'AtE', or Appeal to Emotion. I guess I was thinking Appeal of Emotion.

[reso]

@reso
590
609

You're essentially saying I went from having people like Maverick defend me, to making a play to make them turn against me. It doesn't make sense. It is very illogical

I'm sorry, but I'm not quite following this. I'm not seeing exactly how Post 590 and Post 609 connect with your statement.

[reso]

@reso
590
609

You're essentially saying I went from having people like Maverick defend me, to making a play to make them turn against me. It doesn't make sense. It is very illogical

I'm sorry, but I'm not quite following this. I'm not seeing exactly how Post 590 and Post 609 connect with your statement.

EBWOP: As in, I'm not seeing people defend you in Post 590, and I'm not seeing people suddenly turning against your in Post 609.

[reso]

I hereby declare that your argument is pretty much a WIFOM, and WIFOM arguments aren't to be trusted.

While on the subject of WIFOM, I'd like to point that Maverick's argument for Vax being town is based off of WIFOM (if anyone has forgotten).

As much as I don't want to indulge in WIFOM, I'd say that 0x40's death makes it less likely to Vax to be scum. I'm going to go ahead and remove him from my list of potential scum. I really don't know what to make of Ryan. It looks like overeager newbtown but at the same time I can't ignore the shift from him placing the hammer vote and voting me for causing a mislynch. It's very forced.

As are my own reasons for Vax and Maverick being town as well.

I personally find 0x40's death interesting. For the majority of Day 1, he spent the majority of the day tunneled on Vaxkiller, but at the very end, he played an untunneled game. Would his fate have been different if he had stayed tunneled on Vaxkiller? To me, this possibility makes Vaxkiller seem less likely to be scum, but not necessarily more likely to be town.

I've previously mentioned in my #585 that I don't think that Vaxkiller is scum. It's more or less the same reason as Maverick's #589. For the same sort of reason, just with a different set of people, I think Maverick isn't scum because I am still alive. The end of Day 1 ended with me being particular biased against Maverick, especially for this general Day 1 attitude against people that didn't think the way he did. I think it would be fair to say that if Cobalt flipped town, it would have easy to assume that I would continue to go after Maverick. I realize that both the Vaxkiller not-scum and the Maverick not-scum are WIFOM arguments, but I think arguing about the WIFOM nature of such arguments are a moot point, so I decide to go with one side of the argument and deal with the consequences afterwards.

[reso]

I wasn't singling you out for anything. I was just reminding people that such arguments vouching for the town-ness of people based off of WIFOM have sprung up before, and that we have more or less taken them for granted judging from the lack of response to said arguments. YOU GOOD MAN.

[reso]

For now, the only non-WIFOM arguments we have are of hiplop and innocentvillager. Please make your defense, hiplop and innocentvillager. You wouldn't want a hammer from me 24 hours before Day 2's deadline.

Is this contradictory? Non-WIFOM arguments shouldn't need more defenses.

[reso]

you asked me for examples of people throwing suspicion on iv?? Thats what that was

No offense, but if that is the case, then your 750 was a poorly formed post. Even more so now am I not seeing the connection between the links and the following statement. One thing to note about about the IV suspicious are that they are merely suspicions. They were said and nothing really happened with them afterwards until you brought them up again. Not only that, but they are suspicious of inactivity, and when IV's officially been away for official stuff like RL and exams while using the V/LA function, I can look past them.

I'm going through Bristol, last stop before my campsite.

I'm going to go ahead and say we should never in a million years lynch Vax. Ever.

Like if I come back and Vax has been lynched I shall be majorly annoyed.

You've contradicted yourself. Actually.... looking back at your posts, you've contradicted yourself twice regarding your thoughts on Vaxkiller. In #598, you brought forth the thought that Vax is probably not scum, admittedly for WIFOM reasons. In #613, you proclaim Ryan and Vedith in as your scum suspects. But then, about 25 minutes later, in #615, you claim there has to be scum on the hiplop wagon, and you point your fingers at Ryan and Vax. At no point from then to your #775 and #776 have you made it clear to us that you no longer think that Vax is no longer scum. But you have proclaimed that in your will be majorly annoyed if he does end up lynched. So you will be majorly annoyed if one of your scum suspects ends up lynched?

UNVOTE: hiplop, because even now, even after all that has been typed up and posted, it still feels like I'm PL'ing him. And everyone has already talked about why PL is no bueno. I'm still unhappy with his very low activity, and very unhappy with his general attitude with the game, and how he doesn't show his PERSPECTIVE on things and answers in vague terms. But that's it. And I don't think ANY of that is particularly AI.

I am leaning Maverick/Vax right. YES, I have previously thought that the both of them were town (I myself have literally pointed them out in #762), but I deducted those reasons using WIFOM reasons, which I think can easily be put aside if there is something to look at.

[reso]

But it's exactly like what hiplop claimed with you...

Could... you point that out to me? I'm afraid that I've not seen that, unfortunately.

@reso What do you think about my thoughts on Vedith in post 777?

I can't answer that right away unfortunately. In the beginning of Day 2, I said I was going to do an analysis on Vedith, and I was going to reference that and compare with his most recent posts, but turns out that I forgot about it, so I'm going to do that right now and answer your question along side it. Fair?

[reso]

YAY A VEDITH THING.

HipLop

- Only person I've played with here. Standard readings I have trouble with him. I find his late game is stronger than early but not sure if I buy the IV meaning something else thought. Not a lot on here but I'd like to see more interaction.
Not a fan of his reads yet, would like to here his opinion on Colbalt.

So now we are bit later into the game, does his gameplay feel attuned to how he usually plays, or is there something off about it? I don't like asking questions about another player's meta because I also think that knowing one's own meta allows one to change it so accordingly, so I'm just asking out of curiosity.


I still don't quite understand your #497, as in I still don't know how you're got 'if Phantom is scum, then Reso is scum; if Phantom is town, then Reso is town.".

UNVOTE: VaxKiller
VOTE: HipLop

That's L1.
Good spot Ryan. Although I disagree with the comment, and he is normally a low poster (in games I've had with him) it's still a lie he's posted.

I do not want a hammer until HipLop and others have spoken, intent is fine though.

So this is the thing you were staring at, right, Vax? I... honestly don't know what to make of this. Up to that point, hiplop had 15 posts in the thread, where as Maverick and I had 55, Vaxkiller 27, Vedith 25, and Ryan with 161. Note that hiplop has been in the game since the beginning , and Vaxkiller and Vedith were replacements, at #127 and #378 respectively. Hell, both 0x40 and PhantomCobalt were both dead up to this point, and even they had WAY more posts than hiplop, with 92 and 100 respectively. SO YES, hiplop was very VERY behind in terms of activity (I'm not counting IV for obvious reasons). Despite his previous play experience with hiplop, I'm still not quite sure what part of RyanK's comment Vedit is disagreeing with. An explanation from Vedith would be nice.

As for the actual vote onto hiplop, It would depend on Vedith's policy on liars. From the way Vedith jumped onto hiplop for RyanK's spotting of said lie, I want to say Vedith's policy is 'Lynch All Liars'. Vedith, what exactly is your policy on liars? And if you can, can you provide proof that you have acted out as such in previous games? If not, I will go looking for it myself.


His #614 is a bit... twitchy (insistent?), for lack of a better word. He seems to be awfully interested in making sure that hiplop stays at L-1 or even lynched for his inactivity, despite him saying in {url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8186834]#595[/url] that he disagrees with RyanK's comment about hiplop's activity and that hiplop is usually a low poster (according to games he's played with hiplop previously). Hiplop is the IC of this newbie game, and I doubt that him being in L-1 would have even made him react. Hell, he's been in L-1 until I unvoted, and during that time I saw practically no change in his behavior.

Let this just sink in for a second.
My main reason for voting HipLop was because I didn't believe Vax's vote and saw it as distancing. He has proved me right there.

Actually, the reason you voted for hiplop was because RyanK found hiplop lying about his post activity patterns, and you jumped on board. I'd say the reason that caused you to jump onto someone is the main reason, not some other reason you formed while on the vote.

I mean, how on earth can I be voting in an opportunity way on my 'scum buddy'? That would be classed as bussing, not opportunity.

Judging on how insistent/twitchy you were in #614, I could possibly see your vote on hiplop as 'opportunistic'. It will also be bussing as well. You could have both at the same time. I don't know how you can not see that.

This is most likely a way to take focus away from HipLop and go into LyLo tomorrow with no information than what we have today. I suspect he would suggest HipLop is town going into tomorrow.

At this point in time, even if we did lynch hiplop, what information could we have gotten from the results? I've already shown you the numbers of posts for (almost) each person up to Post #595. Hiplop's just BARELY had any sort of interactions with the game. There's almost nothing we could have gleaned from analyzing hiplop's post. Little information focusing away from hiplop. Little information focusing on hiplop. This was a moot point, in my opinion.

_______

I would describe Vedith as one word: Logical (though I don't find a good sense of logic to be AI because I always tell myself that the best scum strategy is to be townie). For the most part, I've agreed with what he's written down, though when I disagree... it forms a domino effect. If I had to form another scum pairing besides VaxKiller/Maverick, I'd have to say itwould be hiplop/Vedith. I still think that my thoughts on Maverick are considerably more lynchworthy, and thus, the VaxKiller wagon is more enticing to me than the hiplop wagon I just jumped off of.

[reso]

This makes me sad. I'm sorry What do you want me to be clear on? I'll do my best to fix ithat

I don't quite know what you can do at this moment. All opportunities for interactions have been wasted away, so this actually looks to me as an AtE. If you do live to Day 3, you unleashing your 'aggressive' playstyle that you spoke of in the beginning of Day 1 would totally be awesome.

[reso]

Dear Supreme Dragon God Lord Bringer of Fires of Infernos,

Updating the Vote Count at the beginning of this thread every time you post a new vote count would be totally appreciated and thus, amazing.






Also, I saw the image, but forgot to mention it, so...................

~Thanks!

[reso]

You really didn't need to do this BTW, Firebringer did say he was going to be back Friday night/Saturday morning.

[reso]

At the time of this post, there are just over 48 hours left in this Day 2 period. If the situation does not change within the next 36-48 hours, I will be dishing out the hammer vote onto Vax. I realize that my interest in the Vax wagon was started because of Maverick's thoughts on Vax's alignment, and the main man himself is not currently available to answer these questions. Still, I am hoping for some amount of damage control. Vax, please convince me why I shouldn't be voting for you, and should be voting for someone else (though trying to convince me to vote for hiplop at this moment of time may be fruitless).

[reso]

Remind me to never again to put myself in a position where I am the hammer vote. Because this is stressful.

Vax, I really like the first part of your hiplop case, about hiplop not scum hunting. I honestly wasn't looking at activity like that. I was just thinking about who was talking and who was not. This is basically what I meant when I said, "All opportunities for interactions have been wasted away...", hiplop. On one side of the vote, we have someone who does spend the time to post and attack, and on the other side of the vote, upon reinspecting hiplop's ISO, I will agree with you in that he's taken a very passive basically-non-existent approach to scum-hunting.


IV is mostly null, but leaning scum. There is not much in his posts that ping my affiliation radar. His vote on Phantom in Day 1 felt genuine, as it happened before Maverick blew the case on Phantom out of proportion. But that's all I have on him in terms of positive reads, unfortunately. I'M VERY HAPPY THAT YOU POINTED OUT IV, because the one negative read I have on IV (the one that I literally realized right now) is his vote on you in #734. Immediately follows up with:

I have a lot more investigating to do (I haven't really ISO'd anyone yet), but for now I'm liking Vax for scum. Mav and Vedith I will need to sort later.

And further accentuates his thoughts on you with:

Yeah Vax is pinging my gut scumdar so hard.

Not a single reason for his vote on you, to this moment. I... just don't get gut feeling votes. Why put a vote on someone if you can't get people to see your PERSPECTIVE on it? Either you vote with good reason, or you don't. There is no motivation in helping fellow townies if you aren't able to explain your vote because I am certainly not going to jump onto a wagon for a 'gut feeling', for a reason-less 'he be pinging me gut scumdar so hard.... YARRRRRRRRRRR ME MATEYS' post (I apologize to any and all pirates that read that; I am not pirate-ist). This applies to hiplop's un-explainable vote on you as well. I just don't understand their train of thought.


I've already shown you what I thought about Vedith. I've gone as far as stating that if I think another possible scum pairing besides you/Maverick would be hiplop/Vedith. But I will await your post about him.

I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY MADDENING THAT BOTH THE PEOPLE I WANT TO QUESTION WON'T BE HERE UNTIL DAY 3.

Hiplop, any rebuttals?

[reso]

I'll hammer within the last 12 hours, because I am also awaiting a response from hiplop.

[reso]

Oh. He did address his problem of his lack of reasoning with his vote on Vaxkiller. I didn't see that.

But still, even now, ever since Day 1, still nothing concrete on your suspicions? Still just a 'gut feeling'?

[reso]

Dear Mod,

You forgot about RyanK's vote onto hiplop in #817.
Thanks, and have nice day.

~Thanks

[reso]

If this isnt *blatant* rolefishing, I'm not sure what is? This is scum trying to make sense of a puzzle they don't have all the pieces for.

I don't find rolefishing to be particularly AI. If doing so is scummy, so be it. But I've seen scum as well as town utilize it. More often than not, I feel like it's actually town that rolefishes more because the scum don't want to risk being called out for rolefishing.

I disagree strongly. I have found very clear, strong townreads I'm not willing to waiver on. I really do believe vax is scum. What he is doing here does not benefit town in any universe. Seriously, it doesn't.

I still think you're giving clear reads while giving unclear reasons. You've been giving more reasons than before, but you are keeping thing unclear by making us look for the things you talk about rather than you concisely explaining your PERSPECTIVE on things, where as Vaxkiller has made a case, and he does point out specific pieces of posts, and he does explain the context.

^ To me, this reads of survivalism of the scum variety. Trying to shift attention to anyone but them. Obviously a wagon on me has bearing considering 3 people are here.

I feel like vaxkiller's buddy may already be voting me, so can't rely on them to hammer. Hoping if they swing it to someone like IV, they can grab townreso to vote with them

@people, thoughts on this post?

As the person that asked for Vax to convince me, if by survivalism, you mean opportunism, then yes, I agree. But I ALSO ASKED FOR YOUR REBUTTAL AND WAITED FOR YOU TO GIVE A REPLY AS WELL. You answering like this is also you trying to shift attention to them and not you. I really don't understand the point you were trying to make here.



I'm running out of time. I will also be V/LA, and most likely, I won't be back until 2 - 4 days after the start of Day 3. If I'm lucky (or unlucky), as early as the morning cusp of Day 3.

VOTE: hiplop

[reso]

Well fuck. What a loss. Upon thinking about it, I suppose Maverick's statement before he left for his event could have been perceived as a cop having read Vaxkiller and realizing his affiliation. I can't tell if me pointing out Mav's contradiction accentuated that aspect. I feel like shit now.

At this point, Vaxkiller is obviously a cleared townie. IV's response to my hammer on hiplop felt incredibly genuine, so I will assume that IV is town. That leaves me with Vedith, RyanK, and myself. It seems that many have already acknowledge RyanK and myself as obvtown. SPEAKING OF WHICH, IV, in your #749, you've mentioned the following:

reso's thought process is sooooo transparent and it's obvious, like you, that he's trying to find scum and is just honestly not approaching this like a newbscum would at all. Some specific posts really set my towndar off, but I'm not going to try and find those unless you reallllly want me to.

At this point in time, I feel like I've sort of skirted by on everyone's assumption that I was obvtown (Vedith stating I was town after Phantom's flips [which still hasn't been explained to me ], hiplop and you reading me as obvtown, Vax's inclination to not vote for me). While that's dandy, I'd really like to see what specifically about my posts set of your towndar.


POE leads me to VOTE: Vedith.

[reso]

Maybe the reason why Maverick1102 thought hiplop seems to be subtly claiming a makes him say hiplop is scum immedietly. So, we are playing setup B or 2.

What set-ups we are potentially not playing were made apparent to us as soon as Maverick flipped. You are over-thinking the obvious.

[reso]

@reso I see what you did there.. get your vote in early so I have to make the decision this time??????

I don't know what you're trying to say, but hammer vote is stressful AS FUCK. Never doing it again.

[reso]

Argue it otherwise. Did you see him cop hinting? Because his posts are not cop hinting at all. So explain why Maverick was killed over Vax or Reso, 2 people that will not be lynched today.

But he was hinting that he was cop, with his #776. Admittedly, I did accuse him for contradicting himself with his Day 1 thoughts without a notice, and thus I accused him of being scum. But since he wasn't scum, for scum, what other possibility could there have been for Maverick not being happy if another random individual? What other relationship besides scum-partners could form within the Matrix6 setup? A cop that's scanned that other person.

I'm really unhappy that Maverick threw himself out like that. I feel like if he didn't, either RyanK or I would have taken the bullet instead, and the game would still have had a cop in it.

[reso]

To me that just reads that he wanted HipLop lynched over Vax (originally, of course) and not to hammer Vax until he's spoken.

I don't understand how you can see him softing as cop with those comments. Without the flip we wouldn't have known that he's cop, so I don't understand your comment here.
Do you agree with my theory?

This was my attempt at playing Devil's Advocate while reflecting on the flip, trying to explain it in a way that might have happened if I happened to have been scum. Of course, I did not initially see Maverick's post as a cop tell. I'm the one that called him out for contradicting himself and thus accused him of being scum.

[reso]

Now, I didn't like Vax day one, that's why I thought he was scum day 2. At first I felt that his vote on HipLop was fake. 589 is the post from Maverick which clears Vax knowing his align, not the post of not hammering him.

How exactly is Maverick's #589 the post that clears up Vax's alignment? I more or less imply the same thing at the end of my #585.

So for all we know, Maverick could have been roleblocked night 1. I see no indication to this, and if he was but hasn't hinted, that will be upsetting.

I think that Maverick was killed instead of someone like Reso or Vax because there is a town doc, meaning also a roleblocker (Scum wouldn't have known town doc,

but with HipLop's knowledge, he would have though about this and most likely told his partner that the odds were there

)

. I don't see Maverick hinting at being cop at all so I'm sure how scum would pick up on that, so to me he looked the safer night kill (without taking the 1 shot Bulletproof into the situation).

This entire section is interesting to me. Just right before, you present the fact that we are left with two possible set-ups with Maverick flipping cop. But immediately afterward, from the way you talk in these two paragraphs, you've clearly made up your mind that we are in Setup 2 (funnily enough, I was referring to the matrix in the first page, but it totally works here as well). What proof do we really have that we are of Setup 2? The only people that can talk like that are the other two power roles in this game, and not a VT like you stated you are.

Let's talked about the bolded next. Why is it upsetting that if Maverick was blocked, he didn't hint that was blocked? This is just me putting on the shoes of a cop, but I would have just kept my mouth shut and hopefully the scum would think they hit the wrong target and move their roleblocking skill to someone else. The only people that would be upset at a cop that revealed himself by hinting that he was blocked would be scum because everyone other townie would just continue to be none the wiser about the setup.

I don't even understand what you're saying in the italicized section. How exactly does Maverick's death and the survival of Vax and I reveal that there is a doctor? From my understanding of the Doctor role, it isn't a driver role. If the scum targeted me, the kill wouldn't go from me to Maverick. I would just stay alive through the kill. And this is also assuming that there is only one night kill available to the Mafia every night for the Matrix6 setup (please correct me if I'm wrong).

And that logic of the underlined section. I don't even. The scum knew right from the start what 2 setups they were possibly dealing with. What odds were there to discuss? It's always been 50/50 for scum until Maverick revealed. There were no odds being possibly leveraged by anything.

Do you agree that my theory with the RB and Doc makes sense here?

That would be a resounding no, sir.

[reso]

Okay, so explain why you don't that there is a RB/ Doc, or why the kill on X40 Maverick doesn't point to that?
Do you honestly think that X40 was the strongest kill for scum night 1, and Maverick was the strongest kill on night 2?
If so, explain why.

It's the fact that there was a kill on 0x40 and Maverick that doesn't point to us having a doctor/roleblocker. There were zero nights where the person chosen for the nightkill survived (and even if there was, it would be impossible to prove the set-up with that as well because in either set-up, mafia can just choose to No Kill). There hasn't been any conclusive proof than anyone was doctored or roleblocked. I'm not saying that we're in a cop-only setup either. I'm just saying we don't have the evidence to prove we have one setup rather than the other. The fact that you're so pushy about us being in the doctor/roleblocker setup implies to me that you have knowledge that we/I don't have access to, meaning you could be one of the power roles of your suggested set-up.

Putting on my scum perspective glasses, I do think that 0x40 and Mavverick were the best kills for their respective nights. Let's talk about Day 1 first. No one in the Phantom wagon was going to be nightkilled because everyone on that wagon would be under scrutiny the following day. So that leaves us with Vax and I left. At the end of Day 1, I left a bad impression on myself with many people, and I also said something on the lines of 'I don't have a list of scum suspects, but rather a list of offenses', so there wasn't anyone in particular that I was gunning for. 0x40 on the other hand spent the majority of Day 1 gunning after Vaxkiller, so if 0x40 was nightkilled, it would have been an easy way to put pressure onto Vaxkiller.

The Maverick nightkill still makes sense to me because I still think his #775/776 look like softclaims. Why let someone who can affiliation scan run amok over two people that people perceive (and not know for sure) as super townie?

[reso]

You're right, I am ignoring the game. I have no reason to care about towncred at this point. I have limited time and this game is definitely not a concern for me. If you're not scum, we lose, plain and simple. There is no way that Vax, RyanK or reso are getting lynched short of a scumclaim. Only scum would try to weasel their way out of the situation the two of us are in out of desperation.

Contradiction at it's finest.
Wonder if the I don't care about losing" attitude changes tomorrow.

Instead of throwing out a blanket statement, can you point out where the contradiction is? Because what IV says makes sense to me, considering the context.

[reso]

UGH IT'S FINALLY OVER.

Before you made the 'I'm going to hammer tonight if there are no objections' post, Vax, I was getting incredibly impatient and considering just switching my vote over to IV, because I was going to vote for the other person the next day. And MY APOLOGIES ON FORCING THE HAMMER VOTE ONTO YOU. I JUST COULDN'T DO IT A SECOND TIME.

In the end, we never got to see this aggressive side that you spoke up, hiplop. I was very sad.

[reso]

Just curious. Ryan, who did you protect during the Nights?

[reso]

Those PT/QT's sound awesome right now. What did you guys talk about in them?