Newbie 1726 (Game Over)

[Nachomamma8]

Like if you have absolutely no idea who you want to lynch and think that killing off one of 5 suspects will be beneficial enough to where you have guidance tomorrow fine buy the better approach in my opinion is to read the game and push like hell.

Will be back.

[Foxbird]

These are a lot of Nacho questions and it's past 1 AM here. Why do I do this to myself?
Alas, I want to make up for my recent lack of activity.

Spoiler: RE: 567

I don't like Jaack's misrep of my doubtcasting on Nacho at all. He either didn't read what I said right, or he didn't want to. This discussion about Caston and me is just silly. And he's talking a lot about me - not delta, which is where his vote is. What's up with that? Only redeeming thing is that I don't like delta's posting, either.

So, a couple questions about this:

First of all, why the delayed reaction? Jaack started talking about how he didn't like your post to me on the page before, but you didn't really seem bothered by it then; why was him explaining the read to me after I asked him about it the final straw?

Second of all, why was this something that bothered you in the first place? Your early posts seem like you're frustrated at the lack of anything going on, Jaack is the first person to get things moving and your first reaction is less "hey, someone got things moving" and more "this is scummy and silly, yuck". I mean I understand that this is probably a weird point because he did something you disliked so you pushed it is a very simple and acceptable answer but can you kind of understand what I'm driving at here?

I see where you're coming from, but have you paid attention to the timestamps here? My two posts were a day apart.

Spoiler: RE: 569

I'm not sure I want to lynch, and I don't think I said that? I haven't made up my mind yet. If we mislynch, we lose, but now that the JK is dead and the BP is outed (and not CCed), chances are high that we'll lose another townie overnight. I guess the question is whether that one night kill will give us enough info to lynch correctly afterwards, and about that I am not sure. I am leaning more towards lynching today, to be honest, since I can't think of a single townflip that would give me super solid scumreads and not just make us clueless tomorrow.

I apparently just dreamed a post where you decided you want to go along with No Lynch. Sorry about that!

1) Earlier? That post is post 20. I'm not sure how much earlier you are talking about. And I had only one completed game onsite at that point, which was a Large with very different mechanics (Summer Waltz), where I flailed to do anything substantial. Granted, my reads were pretty accurate, but they were based on reading the entire game, ISOing lots of people, and my gut. I'm not a great scumhunter, I'm probably not even a good one. So, yeah, I don't really know how to get a game started. My best attempt was 18 where I found a question to ask.

I'll check out Summer Waltz later when I have the time; in the meantime, are there any differences between the two games that you are aware of and would like to explain before I see them for myself (or miss them entirely)?

Fair enough to the rest of it.

2) I've read a couple newbie games where the ICs came into the game with a big wall post containing info about the game. Also, every single one of those games had the IC throw down an RVS vote (and an explanation as to what an RVS vote is). Both of those things were missing in this case. But as I said in the post itself, that's not a scumtell. It was something to look out for if you kept prodging without giving game input, but you eventually came around and participated.

I'm just trying to figure out what you "didn't like" about my entrance - did you dislike that I didn't post a big wall and put down an RVS vote? Did you think that I stalled the game by failing to do either of those things?

1) No problem.
2) Summer Waltz was based around finding someone to become Lovers with and then being able to make your partner quit by quitting the game yourself. I was Town and I struggled for most of the pre-dance to get a Lover at all and was one of the two people that would be left out/lynched with the end of pregame. It was also a Large and I was having a hard time keeping up with everyone.
3) I merely pointed it out because I noticed it and wanted to mention it for future reference. Just one of the ways to spark discussion, I suppose. And you may have stalled the game, but I don't think it was intentionally, if anything.

Spoiler: RE: 570

Oh and something that I thought I typed up but apparently didn't is that I don't mind if you push on me or suspect me for any reason; the only way that I'm pushing to get you to talk right now is because you're a player that I haven't focused on a lot this game and not a player that I have any familiarity with in general; it's all for the spirit of figuring out the game and if at any point I cross the line or come close to toeing it then let me know and I won't let it happen again (although I hope it never comes to that!).

I'm fine with you trying to sort me. I tend to townread people who push me and you're also a non-counterclaimed BP townie. It can only help.

Spoiler: RE: 571

I was also factoring in my own mistake with not seeing where his vote was (I thought it was on delta, but it was on Caston, essentially nullifying half my case).
But yeah I definitely think misrepresenting someone like that is a scummy tactic. Doesn't matter that it was me, could have been anyone.

However, I did make a mistake with thinking his vote was on delta and I like his response to this whole discussion with me, so I'm gonna UNVOTE: Jaack.

I thought that Jaack's perception of your comment on me was a much more significant part of your case against him than the "voting delta but talking about other people one"; was I mistaken? Why would Jaack voting delta but talking more about other people be suspicious (as in why would he do it as scum)?

Delta: Nothing much has changed since my last assessment, though I'm pretty sure he's quit effectively now. I still think that the slot itself is scummy because he basically crumbled as soon as people started to suspect him, which I feel is more of a scum thing to do. There was no flailing, no explanation, just 'I quit'. If he flips scum, I'd suspect scum in ecane/Gratuitous because they were the once that questioned him. Being criticised by the person who officially is your "buddy" can be hard on newbscum, imo. Scumreading until/unless a replacement does a lot better.

This is an interesting take. Do you still stand behind what you said here?
Crumbling when people suspect you is what seemed to happen to Charloux in that newbie game you played a while back, but I'm not sure that it's typical of scum play in general; I'd imagine it's more likely that he decided that the game wasn't for him (which is what a newbie game is all about, after all).

Jaack: I'm super unsure on this one. I thought our squabbles were TvT and I liked that he put an end to our pointless arguing. Scum would have wanted to inflate their post count, I think, since arguing looks like scumhunting. But then later he goes to voting me after Zorblag, who he is still leaning scum on, and never responds to me pointing that out. He also conveniently neglects to say that his vote puts me at L-2. Flickering between null and scum.

You thought that your squabbles were TvT? When did you start feeling that a little more strongly? In your last comment on him, it seemed that you were more null-reading him then townreading him.

1) One reason to do that as scum would be to suspect your buddy but vote somewhere else. I think that's fairly common?
2) It could be null, yeah. I still stand by the fact that newbscum tends to crumble more easily, though. Was that the post where I said "scumread" instead of "scumlean" and corrected myself? It's late and I am too lazy to open more tabs.
3) I honestly don't remember. I think past me's explanation still stands.

Spoiler: RE: 572

RachMarie: She's been discussed by several people already. I honestly think most of her behaviour is NAI and/or a playstyle thing since I'm having trouble with the same things she is. However, I don't like that her reads seem to be heavily based on meta/personal experience instead of pointing out specific posts etc. in this specific game. Null overall.

Your original thought on Rach's play was that it was mostly playstyle; when did you start deciding differently here (I seem to remember you being a fairly significant Rach pusher and if that is not the case then infinite apologies for you)?

I wasn't heavily pushing Rach. I was leaning town on her for the longest time, if I remember correctly. I only voted her after two full cases were made that factored in experience with her, I think?

I should REALLY go to bed now. More tomorrow.

[Jaack]

Okay going to talk my way through this, so apologies if this gets too train-of-thought-y

I don't think that Nacho would claim BP as scum. Going into today, he was probably the most universally townread player in the game. There would be relatively little advantage to fakeclaiming, as he probably wasn't going to be a primary lynch target today.

While I'm not going to just give him a free pass for the rest of the day, I'm going to focus my efforts elsewhere for now and just assume he is town unless someone makes a strong case as to why nacho would claim bp as scum in his situation.

Next on my agenda is some basic VCA, looking primarily at the end of day vote counts.

Final Vote Count - Day 1

Gratuitous

(5):

Nachomamma8

,

ecane

, Foxbird, RachMarie, Zorblag

RachMarie (2):

Gratuitous

, innocentvillager

Foxbird (1):

fiddlercrabontheroof

Zorblag (1):

Jaack

No Vote (0)

Final Vote Count - Day 2

foedufafa

(5):

Nachomamma8

,

Jaack

, RachMarie, Zorblag, Foxbird

RachMarie (1):

foedufafa

innocentvillager (1):

ecane

ecane

(1):

innocentvillager

No Vote (0)

(Green is for people confirmed as town, blue is for people that are town from my perspective)
Well one thing that obviously sticks out is that Nacho, Rach, Zorblag, and Foxbird were ALL on both wagons. More notably is that Rach, Zorblag, and Foxbird were in both cases, the last three voters on each wagon.

I'm not going to concern myself with either my vote for foe or ecane's for Gratuitous, because I know us both to be town. I'm also not overly concerned with either of nacho's votes. Not only am I leaving him in my townpile for now, but they were both the initial votes on each wagon, which is the least notable portion of wagon development.

Now in context, both zorblag's and foxbird's hammer votes were because we were near deadline and there was only one real lynch option at the time. Those two votes are not ones that strike me as particularly interesting. It is in both town and scum's best interest to hammer in both situations, so there's little to be said unless there is something egregious about the way they did it.

So that leaves four wagon-votes to look.

Foxbird's vote on Gratuitous (230)
This is... not my favorite to say the least. While I think that gratuitous was a vote that made sense for her at that juncture, as her other two scumreads, me and delta/IV, had no other votes on them at the time, I'm not sure I like the justification she gives when she votes for him.

I'm not getting lynched today so you should find a better choice

This pinged me hard, gut thing. I'm not sure why. Strangely overconfident and bossy on a D1 with a couple of days left and no clear lynch target in sight.

@foxbird - could you elaborate on why you found this post notably scummy?

This might be in your more recent stuff that I haven't bothered to tackle yet, so in that case I'll run into it when I do that.

In terms of partnering, I could see this vote coming from foxbird+anyone, but it makes most sense paired with Rach as a scumbuddy. Rach was the leading wagon prior to this point, and the only other wagon with multiple votes on it was on foxbird herself.

Verdict - I want to hear from foxbird about it, but my initial reaction is that this is a reasonably scummy vote.

Rach's vote on Gratuitous 234
This came pretty quick after foxbird's vote. In fact, there was zero content from anyone other than Rach between them! (That is not actually that exciting). Most of Rach's reasoning is based around her experience with Gratuitous in one previous game. The most notable thing I see here is that rach claimed to have given grat too much leeway. And while she hadn't really been pushing grat too much prior to this vote, she did repeatedly express some level of suspicious feelings toward him. When I first saw that is felt off, but now that I'm talking myself through it, it doesn't seem so bad.

In terms of partnering, there is nothing notable. All living players are in her townreads in this post. Whenever I get around to partner analysis, I'll take a deeper look here.

Verdict - Nothing strikes me as particularly scummy - certainly less scummy than foxbird's vote here - but it's not a super townie vote either. Meh.

Rach's vote on foe 452
Oh boy, not liking this one much at all. Basically the reasoning is 'sheep nacho; I have no good scumreads.' Yeah, this could very easily be an honest feeling and it fits into her play for most of the game, but it's still breaks down to voting for a town player that Rach had recently (365) shifted from scumreading (and voting) to townreading. That seems pretty bad. It's also noteable that nacho hadn't really made a case on foe at this point. I had a minor one, but rach was specifically following nacho.

In terms of partnering.... I guess it makes rach+nacho even more unlikely, but that is already among the least likely scumpairs in the game, so its not noteworthy.

Verdict - Yeah, this looks pretty scummy to me.

Zorblag's vote on foe 503

Here is your musical entertainment for the following discussion.

So for most of his comentary relating to foe prior to this, is to continually push nacho to explain his vote and that the reasons for voting foe weren't good. He disagreed with my reasoning, but admits we've agreed on like nothing this entire game, and he didn't like rach's vote for similar reasons to what I just talked about above. And then nacho makes his case and zorblag votes because foe is reasonably likely to be scummy. It just doesn't really add up to me.

He spent most of his vote post talking about rach instead of foe. In general, his vote seems to be 'I no longer want to vote for rach, and this vote isn't that bad' as opposed to actual conviction that foe is scum. It was close enough to deadline so I can see why town-zorblag would do this, but at the same time, I still didn't really like this.

@zorblag - Could you articulate your thoughts regarding foe were yesterday? You talked with him and about other player's opinions quite a bit yesterday, but you didn't really say what you were thinking, even when you voted him.

In terms of partnering.... This vote shifted the vote from rach to foe. That makes a sense on a basic level, in regards to a zorblag+rach team, but its a little to blatant of a connection. Just something to remember I thought for later.

Verdict - Ehh, I have issues, but I want to hear zorblag's response first

Okay, that's all for now. Next I want to look more at IV since I didn't get a chance to with this analysis, and take a more broad look at pairings.

[Nachomamma8]

Did you get the chance to glance at the exchange that I've had with Foxbird so far? What did you like about her responses/what did you dislike about them?

[Nachomamma8]

I will respond in full later (read: tomorrow), am out right now.

[innocentvillager]

I don't think that Nacho would claim BP as scum. Going into today, he was probably the most universally townread player in the game. There would be relatively little advantage to fakeclaiming, as he probably wasn't going to be a primary lynch target today.

While I'm not going to just give him a free pass for the rest of the day, I'm going to focus my efforts elsewhere for now and just assume he is town unless someone makes a strong case as to why nacho would claim bp as scum in his situation.

No. Don't think like this. You're right that maybe there is no clear advantage (other than maybe wifoming people like you into townreading him), but there's definitely no clear disadvantage. Nacho claiming BP is completely null.

He was not universally townread. Ecane was. Nacho isn't at that point yet.

This is why I want a no lynch. Why purposefully increase the chances we have of lynching wrong? Just because we're getting "more input" doesn't mean we know whether or not that input is correct.

And plus, if Nacho is BP, he'll survive the night anyway.

[innocentvillager]

innocentvillager is correct; I've decided that Nachomamma8 is town. What he did at the end of the day yesterday was totally unnecessary as scum and should have hurt his position a little. He actively got in and led us to a mislynch when he could easily have sat back and let the RachMarie lynch happen.

I haven't decided that Nacho is town. Nope.

How the hell is that town??? We lynched a pretty townie slot!!! Foe was clearly town due to the mod slip. He was towntelling in generally in his posts.

Zorblag, you seem to be under the assumption that anytime someone actively does something (pushes for wagon switch to foe) when they could alternatively not do something (let Rach get lynched) passively and still get a similar outcome, they're town. I think that's BS, since a lot of times scum's goal is to make it look like they are trying to scumhunt and have consistent reads. Nacho was "townreading" Rach all game, so it doesn't really make sense for him to let the lynch go through anyway. Regardless of Rach's alignment, the fact is that the other lynch he pushed (foe) flipped town, and now Rach is back in doubt again. It might've been more protown, honestly, to let the Rach lynch go through maybe.

The other thing is, NLing yesterday really wouldn't have been such a terrible idea. At least we would've had a ML today. It would've been kinda similar to today and redundant, sure, but not harmful.

Reinforcing that is Nachomamma8's scum play in Newbie Game 1723. That's what a scum game should look like. Although some early posts here look similar he rode a low impact game to victory and never stepped in to make a change like he did here. There are a couple other differences I could point out between the two, but the big thing here is that I have a reason to believe that Nachomamma8, as scum, should play like I expect good scum to play. As of the end of the day yesterday we no longer have that.

While I appreciate posts like this, it's too vague and not going to convince me to get off Nacho. More specific examples please.

@innocentvillager, if you're town you've been playing a game that attempts to keep scum in the dark as much as possible as to the true state of your beliefs. That was true for ecane in your entrance day one, it's true for how you reacted to ecane's PR claim, even up to using your vote for it at the end of the day. I suspect that was true for why you made yourstatement about foedufafa, though that ended up being an awful move in the long run. I strongly believe that you need to stop that at this point in the game though. I can't tell whether your post about Nachomamma8 is serious or not as it would fit with that pattern, but there are no power roles to protect at this time and actually hitting scum based on what everyone actually thinks about the other players needs to be town's priority now.

If you were so convinced that the mod had slipped and cleared foedufafa why not push that more?

Dude the only time I did that was for ecane at the ends of D1 and D2. D1 worked. D2 was a last ditch attempt to save ecane. I didn't expect much from that.

The foe townread was real. How is that not a mod slip? I didn't want to townread ecane based off of that, but the fact is, I noticed it, and it gave him significant townpoints. I'm not going to try to use a modslip to compromise the integrity of a mafia game, regardless of how town it made foe. I didn't want you guys to lynch him but honestly the only thing I could townread him off of otherwise was gut. And maybe that was confbiased by knowing foe was probably town via something else. So I kept quiet.

[innocentvillager]

Innocentvillager, when did you realize that ecane made the PR slip? Did you realize it when you voted her?

I was actually waiting for someone to ask this question, so minor townpoints for doing so.

I basically realized it after she said "There's no Cop in this setup". I don't usually gambit like how I did D1, so my first instinct was just to tell everyone to stfu, which I did. I realized later at some point that ecane was toast and that I should probably try to gambit to last ditch. Also, I saw your post against ecane and I was kind of inspired/reminded to do that. I thought your post against ecane actually was doing something similar in terms of gambiting suspicion, so I followed suit with you in a way.

[innocentvillager]

This post implies pretty strongly that she probably protected Zorblag from the kill Night 1; the most likely result of No Lynching at this point in time that I can see is probably scumteams killing Zorblag. If Zorblag is scum, one odd kill would not be enough to catch him, especially when he'd have the opportunity to shoot the player likeliest to vote him.

If this is true, this makes me further think that Zorblag is scum.

Zorblag would not have been the target; Caston was too scummy, plus me and Jaack were suspecting him.

ECANE should have been the target. Unless scum actually bought my gambit lol (I'm now less impressed with my ability to gambit on obvtownies).

I can maybe see newbtown fearkilling Zorblag, but I don't think his reads were so substantially right that it was a necessary kill.

[Zorblag]

@Foxbird, it should be clear by now, but we are going to lynch today. Don't hold anything back. Do reply to questions, but if you've thoughts you should get them out there.

@Nachomamma8, because scum already know about the night kill attempts it's safe for me to say that I'm not particularly sure that scum would have tried to target me. It depends on who scum are. I think that scum targeting you is at least as likely. We can talk about it more later. Ecane's target for the night seems as likely to be me as any, but I don't know enough about her play to think that she'd target someone to keep safe over someone to try to kill night one. Night two I think it's safe to guess that she likely targeted innocentvillager, though if he's scum they clearly had a work around there.

It was also clear from his reaction to my post after the PR slip that innocentvillager was clear on the PR-claim nature of ecane's post. The vote at the end of the day, as I say, is consistent with how he's played trying to feed scum misinformation if he's town.

@Jaack, my vote yesterday was largely as you describe. Your case on why foedufafa was town was unimpressive, RachMarie's claim that Nachomamma8 had a case was nonsense, and then when Nachomamma8 made his case against foedufafa it struck me as mostly overinflated. My personal read based on the answers that foedufafa gave was a slight town read. The reason that I changed my vote when I did was that I was more convinced at the time that RachMarie would flip town than I was that foedufafa would. Given the timing and activity those were the two viable lynches; I went with the least bad one as, despite what innocentvillager is saying here, that's the better move day two given the information gains.

What were your feelings about RachMarie at the end of the day. You've very consistently had her at the top of your scum pile (and are looking at potential partnerships with her now.) The one thing you seemed to have against foedufafa was Post 391. Could you go into more detail on why that was more damning than all the play that you'd seen from RachMarie which you'd disliked up to there?

I'll also point out that there's really no way that I should play the way I have were I RachMarie's partner. If you're thinking that I could be then I suppose it doesn't surprise me given everything else you've had to say, but it would be pretty awful play both in terms of letting her potentially get lynched and drawing connections between the two of us. If you want to look at what a good partner for scum-RachMarie would look like you need only look in the mirror. The constant suspicion with no votes, the chainsaw on me when I switched from Foxbird to her and failing to step in and move a lynch from someone you thought was a power role onto a top suspect at the end of day 1 are all things that a scum partner would be likely to do.

@innocentvillager, based on a number of posts you've made today, you seem to be fairly confident that Nachomamma8 would be the kill tonight and that he hasn't been targeted before. I don't think those are good assumptions. Could you talk about why that is or isn't something you're assuming? In particular calling for a no lynch after only Nachomamma8 shares what he has to say only benefits scum if they're potentially going to kill anyone else.

If you're claiming that Nachomamma8 would be in the same position today had the RachMarie lynch gone through rather than him essentially being directly responsible for diverting it to a lynch of foedufafa as town I think that you're misrepresenting the situation. If he's scum then he intentionally grabbed credit for mislynching town instead of being opposed to what I can only assume would be a town mislynch. For a player who was not under any suspicion that's poor scum play, especially when we've got evidence that Nachomamma8 plays a traditional scum game (which that absolutely isn't.) It's possible that I've read him wrong, I don't actually know anything until we see flips, but at this point I'm willing to say that Nachomamma8 scum is unlikely enough that I'll stake the game on it being false.

As an aside, I can explain what you're saying in a bit more detail about Nachomamma8's role claim (Jaack at least seems to think it's pro-town, though you noted correctly that it's not.) Scum knows whether there's a 1-shot BP in the game or not based on whether or not they have a Roleblocker. If Nachomamma8 were scum that would be a completely safe fake claim, and given the ability to no kill at night scum even have the ability to try to make it look like it's been used should they care to. I still strongly think that Nachomamma8 is town, but that's not one of the reasons and it shouldn't be for anyone else either.

As far as foedufafa goes, if you think you've got a strong reason to think that he was town (and you're standing by that mod-slip story to the point of asking now how it couldn't be the case,) saying that you're worried about the integrity of the game is absolute nonsense. If you see a reason someone should be town in that situation you push it to make sure everyone fully understands what's going on. If you're pretty sure that town is going to be lynched you stop that from happening. You saw the foedufafa steam building up and had plenty of time to get something else going and instead, at the end of the day, reduced the realistic lynches to only that player. Hell, you didn't even complain about the lynch yesterday, but instead waited until today to do it. And I'm supposed to believe that you're actually trying to help town win the game at this point? I'm having trouble with it.

And really, you went from "Nachomamma8 is basically town" to "He's just as unclear as the rest of us" because he said he wasn't as sure you're town anymore? That's a huge swing for really garbage reasons.

@RachMarie, you apparently now feel there's a strong case on innocentvillager. Care to share why you were so willing to cast a vote? I know that you've said that you were unaware of the game state (which is one more thing that I hate about how you've played this game,) but what are your current thoughts there?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

I still think he is scum but I removed my vote based on realizing it was MYLO

[Zorblag]

Tell us why when you get a chance (hopefully sooner rather than later.) I'd love to see as little POE as possible.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

For starters now he is casting shade on Nacho
He has continually scum read you and me and yet it is clear that you and I are not scum team TvT yes but not a scum team.

[Zorblag]

Yeah, but he wasn't attacking Nachomamma8 when you cast your vote. Is it mostly that he sees both of us as scum when we shouldn't be a team (and if so what do you think of Jaack?)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[innocentvillager]

And really, you went from "Nachomamma8 is basically town" to "He's just as unclear as the rest of us" because he said he wasn't as sure you're town anymore? That's a huge swing for really garbage reasons.

I said that before I realized the BP claim was completely null and before I saw Nacho's inexplicable sudden weird scumread progression on me.

That's a huge oversimplification of why I scumread Nacho for that post, and if you read my post carefully, you would know it too.

Speaking of which, I just realized Nacho still hasn't responded to it.

@Nacho

I would like a response to my 539:

not as great as i felt about him yesterday

I really hate this post, and I'll explain why.

How am I suddenly higher on your shit list from last night to now?? What the fuck happened?

First of all, ecane dying was obvious and we were all fucked once ecane basically PR claimed. Ecane probably would've been killed regardless unless both scum are oblivious to this game.

Second, I didn't want foe lynched and hard townread him but all you guys were like "OMG lynch foe". Not only was he strong town from Zaicon's "slip" (I didn't want to use that as a tell so I didn't bring it up again), but he looked like very strong newbtown. Granted I didn't push this as much D3 as I should've since I was focused on other stuff, but still. And even if you don't townread me for it, at least you shouldn't be scumreading me for it lmao.

I don't know if I like you for town anymore, especially since I just realized JK/VT/Goon is a viable setup too. You should definitely explain why "you feel worse about me today than yesterday" if I have done nothing scummy since last night.

I only see scum-motivation for this. It looks like you could be setting me up to get lynched later today by casting doubt on me, and then playing up towncred by telling Rach to "not vote yet", but you're still setting the stage to ML on me. It feels like you're riding Rach's suspicions here. I might've mistakenly townread you earlier just because I agree with a lot of stuff you say, but I suppose even somewhat skilled scum can do that when they're trying to analyze the game from a "town perspective".

Nacho, what was the motivation behind claiming BP so early?

That was some scattered thoughts, but would like an explanation to this, let me know if you want something re-explained since it is late and I may not be fully coherent.

As far as foedufafa goes, if you think you've got a strong reason to think that he was town (and you're standing by that mod-slip story to the point of asking now how it couldn't be the case,) saying that you're worried about the integrity of the game is absolute nonsense.

I'm not going to push against a town lynch because of a modslip. I'm not that petty, and it's not nonsense. Maybe you'd do it, but doesn't mean other people wouldn't.

[innocentvillager]

He has continually scum read you and me and yet it is clear that you and I are not scum team TvT yes but not a scum team.

Rach are you reading? Am I pushing for you guys today? Did you not see my sudden back off on your wagon?

And regardless, I explained all of these things. For you to scumread me solely for this is kind of ridiculous.

And a you/Zorb scumteam was definitely possible, and still is kind of possible (although less likely now).

I can understand if it's PoE you're scumreading me on, but even so you haven't been very clear in your townreads besides Zorb and Nacho.

[innocentvillager]

Actually like I said, with Zorb's continued insistence on what a "good traditional scumgame is" and here he is blatantly disregarding some of that, I'm inclined to townread Zorblag even if it's not the most attractive option given stuff like ecane's probable jail target.

Unless he's going for a massive overhaul of his "traditional" meta, I don't see Zorblag being scum here.

But honestly, if such were the case, I don't see how Zorblag's scum win rate is so high then. If he really plays the traditional scum game of posting a lot but not actually trying to actively push for activity and lynches, then shouldn't a simple meta of him expose his true intentions? Zorb, why distinguish your scumgame and towngame so much if meta is just going to come back and bite you in the ass?

[Foxbird]

I'm not getting lynched today so you should find a better choice

This pinged me hard, gut thing. I'm not sure why. Strangely overconfident and bossy on a D1 with a couple of days left and no clear lynch target in sight.

@foxbird - could you elaborate on why you found this post notably scummy?

This might be in your more recent stuff that I haven't bothered to tackle yet, so in that case I'll run into it when I do that.

I don't have much more to say about it than what I say in the quote - I found the tone of the post to be very unfitting to the situation.

@Foxbird, it should be clear by now, but we are going to lynch today. Don't hold anything back. Do reply to questions, but if you've thoughts you should get them out there.

Has anyone considered the possibility that Nacho was the kill target N1 and that's why there was no kill? I don't recall anyone bringing this up.
In case ecane

did

jail the killer, not the target, it might have been Rach or inno, as those were the people ecane pushed for a lynch D2. I don't see why she wouldn't have claimed her targets in that case, but perhaps she did not want to reveal her role (and then would have died the next night)?
I do agree that Zorblag would have made a good jail target, though, since town!him would be very valuable to keep alive, yet Caston was scummy enough that there was a small chance for Zorblag to be the killer as well.

[Zorblag]

@innocentvillager, so your saying that you read Nachomamma8's claim, but not the two posts after that before making your first post today and that you take his answering RachMarie's question in an entirely understandable way to be evidence of a master plan he's trying to get you lynched down the road today. Ignoring for a second the fact that someone familiar with the setup shouldn't assume that a BP claim clears anyone at this stage in the game, that's a really self centered response.

As far as not pushing against a lynch you think is town for whatever reason, if you're town that's probably playing against your win condition which is explicitly against the rules. If you're sure someone is town you should prevent their lynch. If you're pretty sure someone is town you should still make some effort. In fact, you know who did that right this game? Nachomamma8 with RachMarie. If you're really town and felt strongly about it, not making a bigger deal of that was a huge mistake (which is only compounded by the fact that the way you played it from the start outted our jailkeeper.)

And to repeat some questions you didn't answer, based on a number of posts you've made today, you seem to be fairly confident that Nachomamma8 would be the kill tonight and that he hasn't been targeted before. I don't think those are good assumptions. Could you talk about why that is or isn't something you're assuming? In particular calling for a no lynch after only Nachomamma8 shares what he has to say only benefits scum if they're potentially going to kill anyone else.

As far as my scum game and the meta of it goes, my posts look similar individually to my town posts, but I do tend to post less as scum when I can do so without drawing too much attention (or when drawing lurking attention is less detrimental than posting and needing to take a position on something that it's better not to.) Those familiar with my scum meta can actually pick out my scum games reasonably well. In fact, I've had to target players early in the game to kill specifically because of that (Mini 1090 is a great example of that where I had to spend my first three nights killing VP Baltar and a 1-shot BP Vi just because there's no way they wouldn't know I was playing my scum game by endgame. I'm helped by the fact that those who would be dangerous to me because they can do that are also perfectly reasonable kills in the games for plenty of other reasons so I can get those kills in without raising any suspicion. I'm also helped immensely by the fact that most towns just aren't very good; they get caught up in stupid things that they think are scum tells, aren't inclined to look at motivations properly and certianly aren't going to take the time to look back at players scum and town games in enough detail to notice what the differences are. If I played with the same group of fairly competent players on a regular basis, my scum game would either have to step up to meet that challenge or I'd lose more. I'm good at scum, but good at scum is relative to the games as they're played (or at least as they were played 4 to 8 years ago.)

@RachMarie, let me rephrase what I was asking earlier. Is there anything that changed between the end of the day yesterday and the start of the day today in terms of your thinking that made innocentvillager scummier? You seemed to indicate that with how you phrased your vote post.

@Foxbird, I've been tossing out the idea of Nachomamma8 having been the night one target some, though it's pretty easy to miss it given that it's buried in a couple comments to Nachomamma8 (implicitly) and innocentvillager (explicitly.) Does that possibility or awareness of it help you with your reads? As far ecane's push on innocentvillager day two goes, I read that mostly as a reaction to what she thought was a soft cop claim (when she knew there wasn't a cop in the game.) I suppose she does start the day worried about both RachMarie and innocentvillager so there might be something to that. The problem is that we'll never actually know what she did until the game is over, so using that as our starting point is a bit problematic.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[innocentvillager]

@innocentvillager, so your saying that you read Nachomamma8's claim, but not the two posts after that before making your first post today and that you take his answering RachMarie's question in an entirely understandable way to be evidence of a master plan he's trying to get you lynched down the road today. Ignoring for a second the fact that someone familiar with the setup shouldn't assume that a BP claim clears anyone at this stage in the game, that's a really self centered response.
Ignoring for a second the fact that someone familiar with the setup shouldn't assume that a BP claim clears anyone at this stage in the game, that's a really self centered response.

I did skim/read the posts at first. I didn't realize it was scummy until I thought about it a little more. The first two posts were a knee-jerk reaction to seeing ecane die and Nacho claim BP. Then I thought about it a bit more with my third post and reversed on Nacho. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Dude, if you read my accusation you would see that I am scumreading him for that because it literally makes no sense for him to feel "worse about me today than yesterday", given that everything I had done from the end of D2 to the beginning of the D3 was either pro-town or null. Explain how this is an "entirely understandable reaction", because Nacho isn't here to explain it. Stop condescending and misrepping me on every little stupid thing to try and discredit me. This needs to stop; I am seriously getting tired of responding to crap like this. If you're not sure if you're misrepping me or not, ask; at the very least, don't condescend me. That's what I try to do; by the same token, please feel free to call me out if I'm acting condescending towards you AND misrepping you at the same time without noting room for possible error in my interpretations.

As far as not pushing against a lynch you think is town for whatever reason, if you're town that's probably playing against your win condition which is explicitly against the rules. If you're sure someone is town you should prevent their lynch. If you're pretty sure someone is town you should still make some effort. In fact, you know who did that right this game? Nachomamma8 with RachMarie. If you're really town and felt strongly about it, not making a bigger deal of that was a huge mistake (which is only compounded by the fact that the way you played it from the start outted our jailkeeper.)
vent their lynch. If you're pretty sure someone is town you should still make some effort. In fact, you know who did that right this game? Nachomamma8 with RachMarie. If you're really town and felt strongly about it, not making a bigger deal of that was a huge mistake (which is only compounded by the fact that the way you played it from the start outted our jailkeeper.)

Why the hell are we still arguing about this?? I'M NOT COMPROMISING THE GAME ON A MODSLIP. I DON'T CARE IF IT MAKES FOE TOWN. THIS IS A PLAYSTYLE DIFFERENCE. YOU CAN PUSH WHATEVER YOU WANT, I'LL PUSH WHATEVER I WANT.

Comparing me townreading foe based on a modslip to Nacho townreading Rach due to meta is a horrible, completely nonanalogous comparison. Nacho had game-related reasons to townread Rach. I liked his case for Rach-town, so I'm somewhat townreading Rach rn. I didn't really have such game-related reasons, other than possibly confbiased gut.

And let's just say I DID try to push against a foe lynch for whatever reason. You all didn't believe me anyway when I explained my reasoning, calling it a "crappy reason". What more could I have done, other than repeat my explanation on what happened during the night??

And to repeat some questions you didn't answer, based on a number of posts you've made today, you seem to be fairly confident that Nachomamma8 would be the kill tonight and that he hasn't been targeted before. I don't think those are good assumptions. Could you talk about why that is or isn't something you're assuming? In particular calling for a no lynch after only Nachomamma8 shares what he has to say only benefits scum if they're potentially going to kill anyone else.

I never said Nachomamma will be the kill tonight.

I'm saying if he's the kill tonight, he'll (probably) survive it if he's BP. I don't think Nacho was townread enough on D1 to warrant getting shot. It's a possibility, sure, but even if Nacho dies tonight after we NL, it still eliminates a potential lynchpool candidate.

I will admit I may have oversimplified stuff when I said Nacho will (unconditionally) survive the night if he's BP. I didn't mean it that way, and I apologize if that was confusing.

If SOMEONE ELSE other than Nacho is the kill tonight, that would be even better, given how especially I don't have any strong townreads at this point.

Basically, my argument for no lynch can be summarized to this:

If someone other than Nacho dies, we lose a strong lynch pool suspect and increase our chances of winning. GOOD.

If Nacho gets hit, he'll likely survive the shot anyway, and we can just re-do whatever we were doing today with no consequence. STILL OKAY.

If Nacho gets hit and dies, then we lose a uncleared, useless PR who was still a potential lynchpool candidate anyway, even if he is somewhat townread by the town (I am especially okay with this scenario, because I am not as convinced Nacho is town anymore).

The sole merit of not NLing: Losing a town voice (maybe).

BUT firstly, this one town voice might not be right either. Why is their input so valuable? Secondly, we also wouldn't have known whether or not that town voice was actually town or scum if we don't NL anyway, so what's the point if we still can't trust anyone today?

As far as my scum game and the meta of it goes, my posts look similar individually to my town posts, but I do tend to post less as scum when I can do so without drawing too much attention (or when drawing lurking attention is less detrimental than posting and needing to take a position on something that it's better not to.) Those familiar with my scum meta can actually pick out my scum games reasonably well. In fact, I've had to target players early in the game to kill specifically because of that (Mini 1090 is a great example of that where I had to spend my first three nights killing VP Baltar and a 1-shot BP Vi just because there's no way they wouldn't know I was playing my scum game by endgame. I'm helped by the fact that those who would be dangerous to me because they can do that are also perfectly reasonable kills in the games for plenty of other reasons so I can get those kills in without raising any suspicion. I'm also helped immensely by the fact that most towns just aren't very good; they get caught up in stupid things that they think are scum tells, aren't inclined to look at motivations properly and certianly aren't going to take the time to look back at players scum and town games in enough detail to notice what the differences are. If I played with the same group of fairly competent players on a regular basis, my scum game would either have to step up to meet that challenge or I'd lose more. I'm good at scum, but good at scum is relative to the games as they're played (or at least as they were played 4 to 8 years ago.)

This actually makes sense, and I am inclined to give you some townpoints for it.

Expect a massive, massive re-examination of all of your meta if you are scum this game, though.

[innocentvillager]

I have a weird feeling the scumteam is Foxbird/Jaack.

[Zorblag]

Stop condescending and misrepping me on every little stupid thing to try and discredit me. This needs to stop; I am seriously getting tired of responding to crap like this. If you're not sure if you're misrepping me or not, ask; at the very least, don't condescend me.

This is exactly what you've been fucking doing to me all game and I'm sick of you saying that I'm the one doing it to you. You just can't imagine how done I am of your crap this game. You need to get over yourself and your obsession with me.

Nachomamma8's town read on you should be less strong today for the same reason that it should be less strong on everyone. His lynch choice for yesterday didn't end up being scum, so he should be re-evaluating everyone in the game, which is the reaction that he gives to start today.

If you think that there was a mod-slip then the game is already compromised. Holding back on the rest of your read because of it also compromises the game. If you strongly thought that foedufafa was town and didn't play to that you were fucking playing against your win condition. You don't fucking get to weasel out of that.

And the comparison to Nachomamma8 is entirely fitting here. You both thought that someone was town. He stopped his town suspect from getting lynched which was the correct move. You didn't. That's the wrong move, end of story. If you had tried then you'd have a reason to complain about they lynch today, but you said one thing and then let the lynch happen, going so far as to make it the only viable lynch at the end of the day.

Yeah, you "may" have oversimplified the position on Nachomamma8. In that you did. Or you're scum and you were just saying what was going to happen.

The value of one extra town voice in the game is that if you've got someone you can trust and work with you can actually trust their reasoning. It's hugely beneficial. I believe that Nachomamma8 is town strongly enough to make that the better move today. If you don't have that belief then wanting a no lynch as town makes sense. RachMarie should actually have wanted to go for the lynch today as well given the stated strength of her reads rather than just sheeping, but sheeping seems par for the course this game for her.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[innocentvillager]

This is exactly what you've been fucking doing to me all game and I'm sick of you saying that I'm the one doing it to you. You just can't imagine how done I am of your crap this game. You need to get over yourself and your obsession with me.

Whatever, let's just start over man. It's clear that we think we're misrepping each other, getting angry at each other for probably no good reason and that our wall wars are really not productive. I replaced into this game for the sole reason of wanting to play a game with both you and Rach, can we calm tensions between us? I'll apologize for my half of the issue, you apologize for your half, and let's move on. Please <3.

Really don't want to respond to the rest of that post since I think we're beating a dead horse here.

Fine, I'll stop advocating for NL since you all are so against it.

Zorblag, let me ask you a simple question: do you actually think I am scum at this point? Or are you just pissed at me?

[innocentvillager]

I'm not implying that we shouldn't have arguments later in the game if they don't arise, I just want this pissing match between us to stop since we're both just getting aggravated at each other, if you will agree with me to that.

[Zorblag]

I've little patience with you right now (and my levels of patience for this game have clearly gone down since I played last for which I do apologize,) but as far as whether you're scum it's still unclear or be voting for you. Irritating to me and scum aren't the same thing no matter how much I might want them to be. Deescalation seems like a fine idea.

Having said that, I don't really mind you advocating the no lynch at all; if you're town it's the right position to have taken. It's not happening here, so pushing it at this point is a waste, but your arguments for it (outside of Nachomamma8 and the night kill assumptions) are sound from town who isn't sure of anyone else.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh