Mini 2297 | Conception | Postgame

[ActionDan]

VOTE: Abnegation

How dare someone be presented before me in lexicographic order

[ActionDan]

Also it did but only because I voted you

Also, we haven't actually left RVS

Which is it atm?

[ActionDan]

@Mod: Is it public knowledge that disciples of benediction are threats to town

There.

I think it's pretty obvious that they are considering we're playing mafia, a game pitting uninformed majorities against informed minorities.

The stretch to entertain the idea they aren't reads to me as a possible play to fake a dumb not-benediction faction tell more than honest concern.

[ActionDan]

@Mod: Is it public knowledge that disciples of benediction are threats to town

There.

I think it's pretty obvious that they are considering we're playing mafia, a game pitting uninformed majorities against informed minorities.

The stretch to entertain the idea they aren't reads to me as a possible play to fake a dumb not-benediction faction tell more than honest concern.

So why aren't you voting Rautherdir?

I simply did not feel the compulsion to vote. I treat my votes as more committal than most and I'm only half scrutinizing the thread while I'm working. I thought it enough to state my opinion while being content to wait a bit longer for both an answer to my earlier inquiry to you and more posts in general.

Guys we've had a fuckton of mechanical discussion but barely any scumhunting.
I'm gonna VOTE: ActionDan because I like their ISO the least.

This vote is pretty solidly scummy. My ISO, as later claimed in post 146 is "a bunch of nothing trying to look like something." I had only made three posts at this point, an RVS vote, a question highlighting what seemed to me to be cognitive dissonance, and a post casting an aspersion on Rautherdir. None of these factors into your complaint about "a fuckton of mechanical discussion" which to me is what I would associate with "a bunch of nothing" in general. If the complaint is that I'm supposed to be contributing more 4 pages into D1, well that presents its own problems.

So I don't believe you're voting me for the stated reason. What I do think is happening here is that you're piggybacking off post 109 and invented a new reason to vote me to keep it fresh. In which case there's a rather poignant hypocrisy occurring, as in post 96 Keeper makes a similar if not even stronger denouncement of rautherdir without voting for him and there's no mention of it.

---

I'll address other posts / people later after work but wanted to get this one out now.

[ActionDan]

EBWOP:

This

is

worth a vote

VOTE: IceDragon

(Also I too think the miller claim is coming from town)

[ActionDan]

also, i don't scumread rauther, but this is all really textbook lamist. i'd appreciate a second opinion here.

Spoiler: quotes

Well. I might have still done it actually.
This was a decent way to break out of RVS I think, and I like doing stuff like that.

Maybe a rolestopper or ascetic I could still see, but... yeah. I mean I had no idea how to use my ability effectively anyways so uh... it was either claim to figure out how to even use my role or try and figure it out myself.

Well, the least I can do at this point is try and be helpful enough to town that I get shot for that reason.

The information that there are almost certainly roles that prevent actions from working is I think more valuable then keeping my role hidden as well, in retrospect. Plus, I can try to be as helpful to town as possible in order to eat a night kill for that reason even if not a powerful role. (The trick of course, is doing that, which I might not have the best track record of.)

I can do stuff like check ascetic or vet claims at least. Or just... gather information in general about other actions in play maybe.

Mass wittering would indeed be terrible.

I really need to make sure most of my posts are actually game advancing though cause what I have is my ability to contribute to town and an as-far-as-I-can-tell barely useful ability. I think I helped get town out of RVS though so I have done that at least!

I'm legitimately wondering if my inclusion is to subvert the practice of a single VT in role madness with just a very low powered ability instead. Or maybe my role actually has legitimate uses in this setup I guess I'll find out.

There have to be other investigative roles then just me though, because really. (I am a little bit salty about my role)


p-edit:
I accounted for this, but... I mean... that's a very weak if not detrimental version of a even/odd-night godfather if that's the case. I mean... why not just have it be a read as Invocation on those nights instead then. Unless one of the scum teams is benign, but even then we don't know that for sure, so. Either way it's negative utility in my eyes.

I don't think you should assume this role is useless, at this point in the game we don't know much about the setup, but as has previously been stated this could be used to confirm the existence of roleblocks, rolestops etc. roles that seem relatively useless can actually be really important depending on the setup.

I know, I'll try and use it the best way I can. If I can even figure that out. And just try to be as otherwise helpful as I can be regardless of how useful my role is.

Seconded. I'm glad you posted this; Rautherdir's posting seems to be written off as town by the likes of Furtive / Hugir and I think that's rather premature. Rauth's posting is currently is converging on 30% of the entire game but all but a handful of posts do not reference anyone's day play. Those that do are anemic: 103, 136, 151.

I think the best town case for Rautherdir is the fact they committed to a full claim this early. It's very rare for scum to do that. I do remain wary as Rauth's reason for claiming it doesn't make any logical sense (help with how to use it? Info for town that we have disruptive roles in a role madness game?) and I'm surprised a player with a 2016 join date didn't understand why it was suboptimal to claim with just these dubious benefits. Additionally in multiball giving an excuse for the other scum team to not target your slot has appreciable advantages.

I hope to be able to get a better read on the slot when their posts are less mechanically driven and actually scrutinize content not volume.

@Furtive and @Hugir why the townreads? I'm also especially curious as to Hugir's progression from Non-Benediction specifically to fully town.

---

Reading up and looking at other people now.

[ActionDan]

The stretch to entertain the idea they aren't reads to me as a possible play to fake a dumb not-benediction faction tell more than honest concern.

I disagree. If memory serves, this kind of confusion usually comes from an uninformed perspective, therefore Rautherdir probably is town.

By the way - it was not Enchant who associated green with claiming scum in the first place. They were echoing Dragon, who did it first.

Seems I missed this Rauth town read. I've seen it both ways, and for myself I've had my fair share of games where I was confused about a topic I really shouldn't have been with a little thought and also engaged in the exact same behavior knowing better as scum. I still think it's pretty clear from the general setup info we have access to that Benediction are our enemies. I was hoping the Mod would answer the bolded questions directed to him in thread by now to put this to bed but I guess no such luck.

Does the Rauth town read still hold now?

Also I don't know if you thought I was referring to someone else other than rauth at the time of that post as the last line looks not relevant.

[ActionDan]

I don't find 243 and 244 that convincing. You have said you didn't find my posts scummy and that you were exaggerating in 146. But in 146 you're still trying to push Rauth to judge my ISO by

Rauth's

own criteria for scumminess (136). It's hard for me to believe that your intention was anything other than Rauth wanting to find my ISO scummy since the words you used in 146 are tailored to fit his perceived sense of what's scummy.

You asked me in 244

My complaint wasn't even directed at you, dude!
Why are you making it look like I was accusing you of something I wasn't?

From your posts alone at the time from 146 and prior it was hard to know exactly what you were really accusing me of so I covered my bases:

I had only made three posts at this point... None of these factors into your complaint about "a fuckton of mechanical discussion" which to me is what I would associate with "a bunch of nothing" in general.

If the complaint is that I'm supposed to be contributing more 4 pages into D1, well that presents its own problems.

The bolded happens to be the apparent answer.

---

Keeper's iso is a tad passive which might be explained eventually by the role hinting. Otherwise while I liked the very beginning with posts 96 and 98, I do find the combos of 96 and 267 along with 145 and 268 to be jarring even if they're not exactly high stakes posts here.

I'm pretty ok with Feysal's iso; The build up of town reads in posts 86 (Rauth) and 257 (Ice) look natural enough and the mechanically speculative parts of their posts for what its worth are solid.

As for furtive and enchant: Enchant isn't making obviously scummy posts yet so that's a plus. Furtive looks to be substituting gut reads (I really dislike the word "vibe" so this is the oldschool terminology) with scumhunting but nevertheless I can't complain about his vote trajectory.

A lot of the game including the people I've just mentioned still are getting their bearings and I don't yet have solid reads (save a couple)

[ActionDan]

@ActionDan I reeeeeeeally don’t think checker would be a scum role.

Maybe so. It would be a very subversive expectation at least; if it's a scum role there might be an omitted part to it but all this remains speculation. This and the fact its being committed to I would agree is the best town case for it.

Also how he went about his claim etc

hmmmm. Still seems to me random. I get eagerness to claim info to help town, which even looking back now is more an afterthought, but claiming for the sake of being better informed in how to use the role does not inspire town feelings as to the lead up.

[ActionDan]

@Mod: Is it public knowledge that disciples of benediction are threats to town

Not directly, but it can be implied so as they are an informed minority.

On the train. Wanted to address this now. This does not say that benediction are necessarily threats to town; However, I have an ultimatum: To the members of benediction - claim or die.

[ActionDan]

Considering mod's 364 I guess so. Maybe Rauth's role isn't as useless as it seems. But pure speculation won't get us anywhere until we at least have a round of night actions

[ActionDan]

Ice can you specifically tell me what made my iso worse than Keeper's at the time?

[ActionDan]

Perhaps I've only voiced what was already understood, but I just want absolutely no wiggle room later. "We're benediction, we're your friends! It was just not the right time to claim our alt wincon!"

[ActionDan]

I had been filtering out Rauth's mechanical explanations but as you and feysal are presenting casework on it I'm going to take another look at them tonight.

If we're going lurker hunting I think I'd prefer kawaii only because of the posting in other games not this one that I've seen sporadically. Dunno if goldfish had done the same.

[ActionDan]

VOTE: Hugir

But why?

[ActionDan]

Ah okay I'll refrain from continuing then

[ActionDan]

Will read a bit before bed I guess but between trivia tonight and work party tomorrow I realistically won't be full throttle till deadline day.

Weird to see so many people in a mini so absent

[ActionDan]

About Ice I have a soft heart so I do like that he's taking responsibility for his sins at the least but the original awkwardness will just always linger for me. Things can always change though.

[ActionDan]

Hugir seems pretty town to me :/ reasons appreciated

[ActionDan]

I'll be at full capacity tonight

Just skimmed claim. It does feel that roleblock safeguarder plus checker for roleblocked feels gratuitous togrlether and even weirdly punishing for a scum roleblocker or as randomly speculated a factional roleblock.

I vaguely remember an ice post about being hard to kill at night dunno how that related to this claim on first glance. Was it attempt at misdirection?

[ActionDan]

Ah OK got it. I even saw that but for some reason didn't read the last part of the sentence

[ActionDan]

Hi I am here now.

First just want to touch on this:

Ice can you specifically tell me what made my iso worse than Keeper's at the time?

Hi I've been away, only come back now.
To answer your question: I didn't actually look at Keeper's ISO - I think I had either missed them or otherwise had had a light town read on them. Right now however they are null and scum by default.

This would explain why you never called them out for not voting Rauth but its trading one inconsistency for another in that you had claimed to read all ISOs by that point. Anyway I don't want to relitigate this topic but my head is saying that your execution would be higher value than a lurker execute as sympathetic as I am towards one.

What remains to be done now is to see if Rauth would be the better option and for that I've got a couple hours to spend reading and rendering a verdict. So starting that process now.

[ActionDan]

Popping in while working on another (what's turning out to be lengthy) Rauth post to briefly corroborate that feeling about Kawaii. Well I mean I liked that post of yours too but Kawaii does feel like they are exaggerating there and their posts on this page alone are weird af.

[ActionDan]

There is a lot to track here and I'm going over it with a fine tune comb. I'm going to start with Feysal's rauth vote (since undone later) and reasons.

Here the speculation whether Benediction was regular scum went on rather too long, and it occurs to me that Benediction would have a vested interest in getting us to believe they were not a threat. And for that, Rautherdir was largely responsible for.

... Rautherdir, who suspected Enchant of scumslipping for their belief Benediction would be scum.

Wait a minute... how does one simultaneously theorize Benediction being benign, and suspect someone of slipping they were not?

I think this is more or less the essence of the points against Rauth aside from the their scumhunting abilities which really didn't exist for a while and the questionable impetus behind the claim all of which still holds.

1) did Rauth go on about the possibility of Benediction being special in some way as benign for far too long? Definitely so. There are many posts which were interactions on the topic with others so I don't fault that entirely but there are also plenty of extraneous ones too though which are complete filler. The following would be examples 81 and 82, 87-89, 123, 137, somehow still a thing in 185... 214 I'm being generous. The fact that I was able to create this absurd list of posts is a but a taste of how speculatively exhausting Rauth's posts during this time period are, not limited to this one topic. Think claims (their own and the miller), Musings about the IC role even if not serious. Is all this scummy? I can't help but think yes. at some point there has to be some self-awareness of posting something like say 239 and maybe thinking along the lines of "well have I been doing a good job being my best townie self?" and just realizing no definitely not lol.

2) Took a second to think about if the accusation about Enchant potentially being scum because he implied green was scum as a scumslip is possible in the same headspace as bringing up the possibility that benediction is benign. That in itself is fine. The proposed slip at the time was that town couldn't be sure benediction was scum thus Enchant rolling with a fake green scum claim was not town. That narrowly works. I mean that would also imply everyone who thought that way was slipping but poor enchant was the first to publicly hard assume green scum are in fact scum. And Theres the other problem with that entire interaction, it deserves its own section:

Hmm. To be honest I was baiting to see who would agree with my stance or not, thus why I kept mentioning it as a possibility throughout the day. As mentioned Benediction would probably jump onto something like that as a chance to be town... so after reading through again (Unfortunately not everyone has commented on it, was hoping a bit more time would offer that but nope.)

I've reread all the early parts of the ISO. And I don't believe this; that is I think this is a straight up lie. Note this comes after votes on the wagon plus posts 356, 418 and 424; aside from the last two being very salient points and good posts about the situation I mention them also because they created pressure whereby what I quoted from Rauth above came into being as a way to try to undercut the points in them. Why do I not believe that what I quoted from Rauth above? Well simply posts like the discussion around enchants "scumslip" would never come into being , the point would have never carried water. so you wouldn't see 45, 53, 60!, 136!!

I don't think I could say anything one way or the other that would overshadow the above paragraph so I'm pretty set now.

UNVOTE: Ice
VOTE: Rauth

[ActionDan]

Two hours left btw who is here?

[ActionDan]

would you vote Rauth if needed?

[ActionDan]

my ending thoughts are that Abnegation; Feysal; Hugir are all pretty strong town, for multiple reasons. Massive gap between them and anyone else in the spectrum. I think Ice is scummier than not but very much not certain will reassess over the night.

[ActionDan]

I slumber for now.

Have a rather good idea of Bene; a rather poor one of Mali.

[ActionDan]

my ending thoughts are that Abnegation; Feysal; Hugir are all pretty strong town, for multiple reasons. Massive gap between them and anyone else in the spectrum. I think Ice is scummier than not but very much not certain will reassess over the night.

@ActionDan:

interested in your reasons.

For the town reads I'll speak in mostly generalities: Abnegation: Aside from the fact that the miller claim fits well with the game (and now there is a bene cop) their posting has always been good. Feysal: similar solid posting + the backtrack on Rauth was + town as they reconsidered a decently solid case on him; Scum are not likely to hold back and stay their hand on a juicy target (also if partnered no reason to originally case rauth after an expressed town read with no critical pressure on him); Hugir: slightly weaker than the other two in terms of town reads but their is a fluidity in their posting and their ease of direct town reads (includes my own ) that I have enjoyed plus I thought the attempt to clear Snakelet was + town.

Ice: Most of this read comes down to a poor early series of posts. I can go over specifics but I've done that for half this game already. Since then and rereading a bit over night Ice's posts have markedly improved and I didn't realize just how similar his rauth case was to mine (and others) until reading it for understanding. Perhaps it was done out of necessity but at the very least it shows he can think like a townie.

[ActionDan]

More votes on KawaiiKame?

Have a rather good idea of Bene; a rather poor one of Mali.

[ActionDan]

Aisa what makes enchant / furtive a cut above abnegation/feysal/hugir?

[ActionDan]

I like the pretty rgb color spectrum. Give me moreeee.

Sadly it will become irrelevant shortly

[ActionDan]

I have some thoughts floating around. Will only be able to post cognitively tonight.

[ActionDan]

My reads on Enchant and furtive are mostly based on vibes. I don't think I'd find either an easy read if I hadn't played with them before. But I have played with them, and they just happen to pop out to me this game. I will now attempt to explain the vibes but the key thing to know is that they're not completely logically explainable, they're gut reads.

Tonight's Tinfoil is that I'm suddenly wondering if I should take my furtive townread away D:

"Why" idk I just ISOed him again and everything suddenly looks scummy, please help D: D:

Congratulations! You've discovered why "vibes" (uggg) alone don't work. Good that you rescinded the furtive read as 737 was rather contrived, even you must have felt that when writing that out right?

I think the basis for the Enchant read is way better in 721, though I am not fully onboard until more time as passed. I have played with him too as scum and it became rather obvious he was and while it wasn't exactly quantifiable there was definitely a reason why that I will not explain. Caveat I haven't been in an extended game with him as town.

I'll revaluate my Hugir read and see if it holds up.

---

I don't like 715. Aside from a rather major flaw in the logic, there's no connection whatsoever between 635 and the speculation in 715. Thus it was said to be said with some sort of purposeful intent.

---

About Kawaii. They're green scum. And they've been green scum 100% since the Rauth flip. I was looking a bit to see what everyelse's reaction today would be but no one really did any haw-hemming

[ActionDan]

Are we done torturing this poor soul lmao.

I haven't been keeping track of the wagon *points to abnegation*

[ActionDan]

Oh nice the mod; VC?

[ActionDan]

@Aisa Abnegation is our resident unofficial votecounter

[ActionDan]

Kawaii was supposed to be scum. I wasn't even considering anyone else for green scum, although I'm pretty sure the pool that could be a partner is very low.

Not too sure what a massclaim does for us here really. Unless there's some critical info that could be forthcoming massclaim now will just give scum a roadmap to avoiding / killing anything remotely dangerous.

I was much too lax yesterday, today its time get into gear.

[ActionDan]

Hey the pool of possible scum is halved, I don't even mind that furtive effectively shot himself in the face to do it

[ActionDan]

I'll pour over the thread after work

[ActionDan]

I read a bit more last night.

I'm pretty on board with ice/furtive/enchant town with a small caveat that enchant might have been redirected n2. Not likely enough to worry about.

Red scum candidates:

ActionDan, Abnegation, Hugir, Feysal, FL, Keeper.

I was thinking before kawaii was erased and coming into today before enchant reveal that ice and the keeper had a good chance to be partners for a lot of reasons one of which was ice's scum cop theory's "major flaw" when attempting to clear the keeper. There was no reason in the theory that red scum couldn't use it on themselves. In any case ice very likely isn't scum at all, so this is shot otherwise i would have been distracted by it. However I do remember keeper and snakelet's interaction D1 and at the time it sounded to me something along the lines of "back off we're masons" (or similar) but with a parity cop out that's definitely not the case. Of the pool above those 2 strike me as much less town than the rest and that's currently my working theory. A more through rereading for me is in order though.

Green scum candidates:

ActionDan, Abnegation, Hugir, Feysal, FL

Sadly unless more roles come out to explain the lack of kills two nights in a row, the possibility of abnegation being green scum is quite plausible as feysal suggests. My heart doesn't agree but head does. Interactions with rauth and D1 wagonomics don't preclude this either (in fairness they don't preclude anyone aside from me, objectively).

If I were to vote right now, I think I'd vote FL just because that's probably the one person with the most scum equity to me of any color.

But will need to reread and I'll only have time Thursday night so 1.5 days away. If we make it to the weekend that would be great too

Cut: I cant roleblock

[ActionDan]

Woahwoahwoah woah. Hol up


You were at Titus meet?!!!!?!!

[ActionDan]

Hi boonskies!

Nice to see you here! we probably aren't town together this game but I'll be able to properly read your posts tomorrow night

[ActionDan]

Going over the last few pages.

First, it's quite a leap in logic to go with the "Furtive is scum on a sinking ship that wants to take down a townie with him" mindset; Furtive was not necessarily anyone's first choice of scum, to me he was squarely null and I don't remember anyone aside from Keeper saying otherwise. Secondly the benefit of latching on to Enchant comes with a few pretty offsetting negatives than the free townie erasure. 1) no one had any way of knowing Enchant was a cop and there was no guarentee he wouldn't be a target of erasure. 2) In multiball you're opening yourself up for a juicy double shot. Basically the extra exposure is almost never worth the risk, and that pain would be doubled if your partner dies first somehow.

Second, Abnegation's defense of suggesting the benediction faction doesn't have a standard kill and the evidence they cite to show that don't match up - and while I was looking at Mod's posts and Rauth's post what I think they do match up to and what I'm starting to believe is Ice's theory or something very similar. I'll go over both.

Mod posts: The only time the Mod has mentioned anything about scum in this setup is the general information post 2 and rauth's scum flip. from that we can see that it appears Benediction has 2 members and Factional abilities may or may not be non-standard. That 2nd sentence probably isn't talking about the factional kill. Rather I'm thinking about the message the Keeper got. That probably was a factional ability (because at this point it being unclaimed makes it way less likely a townie did that). Jump to Rauth's quotes:

Invocation is the means to obtain both Benediction and Malediction. Affiliation with either is yet to be decided, I'd rather neither as the

freedom to invoke both and maintain balance

is crucial.

Bolded is what I'm talking about.

if that’s true, can you guys do invocation a favour and shoot them?

Neither Benediction or Malediction's intent in finding each other is to kill, but something else, though death will be the end result. It's why I wouldn't have claimed benediction unless I was going to die, even as a last resort.
I won't spoil what it is though.

... At least I assume Malediction has a similar situation as us. I don't actually know for certain!

If Benediction / Malediction aren't trying to kill each other maybe they're trying to out each other, or at least have a factional ability that only very specifically affects / does something to them (which, btw, we haven't seen from green team). This would classify as non-standard surely. Obviously it would be tempting for Abnegation to try to finesse these into fitting in with an altered factional kill but there's evidence directly counter to that as well in that Rauth mentioned as quoted above that Malediction is in a similar situation to Benediction and we know Malediction can kill standardly. There would never have been a need to tell Malediction that green team wasn't specifically "killing" Hell Froze Over (btw where are you guys?). It's quite obvious that message was to encourage Red to take the free kill while green would target whomever they wanted to.

Basically I am not assuaged and still think there's a high possibility Abnegation is green.

Hmm, is it possible Scum knew Enchant was Parity Cop?

probably.

Why? FL wants to strongarm Furtive into a red scum slot; what reason do you have to think this?

I've read your posts FL for the last few pages with regard to how you got your reads and its very much reads as VCA ipso facto scum and there's some other problems too.

You're using VCA and not bothering to explore the context of any of the votes. And some of the claims you make about the VCA don't follow.

Gonna do some light VCA and see what I find. I might miss some Mech reasons/claims/actions in between, so bare with me

Spoiler:

Day 1 Count III

Rautherdir (3) - Feysal,

Hell Froze Over

, Enchant
Enchant (2) - The Keeper, Rautherdir
Hugir (1) - furtiveglance
IceDragon70 (1) - ActionDan

Not Voting

- Abnegation, IceDragon70, BlueSnakelet, GoldfishFromTheMoon, Hugir, KawaiiKame

Day 1 Count IV

IceDragon70 (

E-1

) - ActionDan, Rautherdir, Abnegation, furtiveglance, Feysal,

Hell Froze Over

Rautherdir (1) - Enchant
Hugir (1) - The Keeper

Not Voting

- IceDragon70, BlueSnakelet, GoldfishFromTheMoon, Hugir, KawaiiKame

These wagon shifts are interesting.

Rauth is under fire a bit, not a lot with Feysal and Hell Froze both on it. They both move over to the IceDragon wagon a bit later once it gains steam.

I believe there’s likely Rauth’s partner on IceDrag wagon to help support pressure off of them. It’s not 100%, but it definitely has a high probability.

However, I also think the other scum is on there for sure, at least one. That’s a large wagon in a multiball game on someone we now have reason to believe is much more likely to be town.

That IceDragon wagon is almost exactly where I was leaning had possible scum, from my limited point of view on the game, of course.

This VCA I’m doing is helping me get a bigger grasp on the game. Im gonna keep going.

Day 1 Final

Rautherdir (

Hammered

) - Enchant, IceDragon70, furtiveglance,

Hell Froze Over

, ActionDan, Abnegation, Feysal
IceDragon70 (2) - Rautherdir, KawaiiKame
Hugir (1) - The Keeper

Not Voting

- BlueSnakelet, GoldfishFromTheMoon, Hugir

This is neat. This is essentially the IceDragon Wagon, but on Rauth now.

If there’s 4 scum total, 3 scum on Rauth makes a lot of sense here.

I've striped the mech and Furtive bits out. The bolded does not have to be true at all and I would like you to explain why you think it ought to be more true than any other scenario where scum are off wagon without analyzing the contexts of the votes . The Ice wagon formed as did the Rauth wagon, because the active players found them scummy. And they were, and we correctly erased Rauth because he was the scummier of the two.

I agree with you that Rauth's partner would have an incentive to be on Ice dragon (this is why we erased Kawaii because they so cartoonishly voted Ice for incredibly spurious reasons), and in that vote count since it's not me and like, you seem to implicitly agree its not me, that would leave Feysal / Abnegation. Which you've identified. This would be where the usefulness of VCA ends and the place to actually, you know, look at their votes at the time and maybe comment on them but you don't do that.

Nor is that done for your fantasy red team of me / Furtive and the link between VCA and that conclusion is even more tenuous being only that we both voted for Ice Dragon. To me this feels like you just started from OMGUS because I stated that I would have voted for you and that Furtive simply did so and VCA was the best you could do to justify it.

Other issues:

Your Change of heart from Ab #1 green candidate to strong town vibe doesn't feel real in the span of a page.

Checking the night kills, Hell Froze Over died after calling out Feysal a little bit.

Aisa died after they had been Side eyeing Furt and Action a little.

Could indicate a trading pattern with kills too.

This is rewriting history. Aisa was quite obviously fingering Hugir and had a town read on me. I don't remember HFO's opinions ED1 but they were obviously killed because Benediction invited them to do so.

----

As for Feysal; I want to reread them and Hugir sometime when I get a chance (Honestly I need to reread everyone) but Feysal today certainly and to my recollection everyday prior has been town to me and pretty much echoing my own thoughts. The votes on them today are uncritical (including enchant's) and in FL and Abnegation's case likely opportunistic.

[ActionDan]

Either I’ve been bamboozled hard before (both AD and Fey were strong townread D1 for me)
Or I’m being bamboozled hard right now (At least one of AD and Fey are town and I’m being rekt somewhere)

This is not a pleasant feeling

So like; let's start small. Like real small.

Please look back on D1 and look at the votes for Ice / Rauth. Consider it homework. Tell me what you see

[ActionDan]

I write my posts nowadays in a way to try not to be spicy. Vibes are my enemy and I will slay them.

[ActionDan]

Let's see how much I can through before I have to jump on a nice refreshing work call at 9am my boss setup.

@1070 and 1072. The Answer is yes. I try to emulate my town game as much as I can in general. The last time someone accused me of being too logical and being scum where I was in fact scum was a long time ago. If you care enough to want to read it I'll look it up later it was a pretty fun and wp game by all if I recall. But I'm no mafia master, I in general do not last long as scum. It's not the best example since I replaced in to a suspected slot but you can take a look at hollow knight mafia, that is by far the most common scum experience for me. (If I made an impression irl well that's just my natural charm )

I made 1036 and I do hope it reads genuine because I am in fact happy to see you. But I did at that point skim the 2 pages prior and in my cursory look I didn't like what I saw and saw you were targeting me as well. I was not precluding you from being town. I haven't voted even now. If you are town I think I'll be able to tell with your activity which I appreciate.

Concerning 1069 briefly:

I have no qualms about you using VCA, it's what I'd do too if I were behind. But your conclusions from your VCA

aren't

leading you to occum's razor solutions. I can understand using it to point to green. Makes a lot of sense since Rauth wagon was a big part of D1 and was green, but you're putting always 1 and possibly 2 red scum on a 5/7 ice wagon for no reason other than because you feel like it. Me / Furtive / Feysal are on; You / Keeper / Hugir are off. You've been clear already that you think Me / Furtive are scum. is that really just from VCA? Do not see why I'd detect some bias there?

Also not debating 2v2. that's a fine assumption, not sure if you think I am questioning you on that because I'm not. (also read Rauth's flip). I will say you have been doing preflip stuff at least implicitly.

I will look at Feysal / Rauth interactions again. your vote on Feysal which carries weight especially since Enchant was voting there, is a vote to kill. and it only based to my knowledge on VCA at the time. It's at that point even if you're just starting up getting into the game with VCA where I would expect you to actually do more investigative work to feel comfortable with it.

Will agree that I don't know what advantage flip flopping on ab would do for you as scum. That's not my focus, its more important if it makes sense to do and my thought is no. Ab's posts inbetween your flipped read aren't super townie. They're fine, but aren't especially AI.

Both landing on Feysal with 3/5 votes should strike you as not necessarily consensus!

Out of time! more to say! look forward to continue!

[ActionDan]

I'll be able to post later, but can claim now. I'm meditation, self voyeur.

N1: disturbed
N2: not disturbed

[ActionDan]

To find myself in affiliation with the invocation against the supposed good of a benediction in contradistinction from malediction is a situation of much confusion.

One would hold The Legemeton while other holds The Book of Virtues, while I must wander on with The Idiots Guide to Telepathy.

I guess I must aim for the Marked and VOTE: Enchant

Found d1 crumb

[ActionDan]

Huh, I thought Ice had probably used their action on me N1 or a doc or something would be revealed. Guess I got targeted by scum. I suppose that's not surprising N1 or perhaps Kawaii targeted me and was redirected away depending on how the redirection ability functions.

Still processing the latest reveals.

Affiliation is nothing more than specific neighborizer, why do we have another similar one in Kawaii?

Initial thought on Ice / Hugir claims is that if scum had an anti-roleblock role (weak as it is) and only town seems to have had a roleblocker, then town having an anti-redirect ability while scum has the redirector makes pretty good sense. Moreover and Enchant can perhaps confirm this, one of the potential design flaws in Community that Narration also modded was that my town roleblocker in that setup could not be countered by last scum standing. That setup was town vs 2 scum / 2 traitors / 1 non-killing TP, so there's a lot of similarity wherein its easy to have one or the other scumteam go down to 1. Aisa's role has quite a downside in its compulsive continuous nature but a situation could occur like it well might have in this game where scum got stuck. (Also does Roleblocker / Parity cop / Redirector / Anti-redirector make sense together in this game for town power; hard to say without knowing more)

Perusing TL + Abnegation posts.

[ActionDan]

Do we have a claim tracker action / consequence / result etc?

[ActionDan]

Name - Role - N1 - N2

Feysal - Fruit vendor - The Keeper - Abnegation
Enchant - Parity Cop - IceDragon - Aisa
Aisa - roleblocker stuff - Abnegation - Abnegation
Kawaii - Neighborizer - NotAisa
The Keeper - Neighbor - NoAction? - NoAction?
Flavor Lead - Meighbor - The Keeper? - NoAction?
ActionDan - Voyeur - Disturbed - NotDisturbed
IceDragon - NoRoleblock - NoAction - NoAction
Hugir - Redirector - Furtive - IceDragon
Furtive - Loveriser - NoAction - Enchant
Rau - Checker - Dead - Dead
Hell - Innocent Child - Stumped - Stumped
Abnegation - Miller - NoAction - NoAction

I see this and Feysal targetting Keeper and Keeper

didn't

get a flyer?

[ActionDan]

@Abnegation; if you haven't explained already and I just missed it, regardless of color considerations, why did you vote Feysal at all? Does it have to do with your D2 reads post?

As for your (way too much) color post 1116:

per green color, I didn't actually look into that, I will though. Addressing Purple; Orange; Pink: Yes theory is Malediction has both factional kill and publishing cop, my basis being Rauth's posts. Looking back at Orange I didn't explain myself well enough. The point was that Rauth even assuming that Malediction had a similar situation means the mod gave him no reason to assume differently and no reason to think Factions weren't symmetric; It seems to me he's quite well informed about what his faction's goals are and thus malediction's as well. Pink ties into orange a bit. Either both factions have non-standard kills (which we can rule out) or both have standard kills via my previous point. Rauth mentioned "killing" directly. Even if he used a different word or set or words to say "We are not applying our killing power to the IC" the point remains that he's telling Malediction to target the IC so they would be free to do something else. If it Bene/Mal had even/odd night kills this would have been redundant as well.

[ActionDan]

The only Bastard mechanic present is the possibility of mod misdirection.

What do people think this might be referring to based on claims so far?

To me, from this, it would make sense if one or both Affiliation players were not Invocation.

I do think Keeper has a fine chance of flipping Red scum but I feel like this might be related to redirector stuff maybe? Then again clearly there's a lot of weird shit going on in this game

[ActionDan]

Wait FL, are you saying your union can't be 1 scum 1 town?

[ActionDan]

Keeper targeted Aisa Night 1.


We lost ability after we got in vacuum.

Where’s the 2nd redirector ID was talking about?

I am not sure. If there isn't one then AD/Hugir is definitely lying, because FMPOV the bolded actions are confirmed:

Name - Role - N1 - N2

Feysal - Fruit vendor - The Keeper - Abnegation

Enchant - Parity Cop - IceDragon - Aisa

Aisa - roleblocker stuff - Abnegation - Abnegation

Kawaii - Neighborizer - NotAisa (redirected to Aisa)

The Keeper - Neighbor - Aisa - NoAction

Flavor Lead - Neighbor - The Keeper - NoAction

ActionDan - Voyeur - Disturbed - NotDisturbed

IceDragon - NoRoleblock - Abnegation - Aisa

Hugir - Redirector - Furtive - IceDragon

Furtive - Loveriser - NoAction - Enchant

Rau - Checker - Dead - Dead

Hell - Innocent Child - Stumped - Stumped

Abnegation - Miller - NoAction - NoAction

(Abnegation's action is confirmed due to being roleblocked)

On the other hand if there's a second redirector then they are 100% scum. And since the above actions are confirmed, it's definitely AD who is the second redirector here.

So in either case AD is redscum. I don't think I've messed anything up here, right?
VOTE: ActionDan

>_>

Do you realize scum could just like, lie about something they might have done on the side via omission? (Assuming Hugir's telling the truth which is a decent sized if currently).

[ActionDan]

I wonder if there's a possibility that scum have a redirector ability as a factional ability. I mean this would imply Hugir is scum just for claiming it still so.. meh.

[ActionDan]

him seemingly defending Hugir.

I'm just thinking about my own case, like I know something unclaimed targeted me N1. Thus there has been a lie by omission already

[ActionDan]

Why wouldn't Hugir's last-to-claim not knowing Ice countered redirectors be even safer?

[ActionDan]

I'd also like to add that as scum my N2 result of no one visiting me would have been pretty risky considering Hugir / Ice to claim targets behind me.

[ActionDan]

why can't he make a wrong assumption? he even admitted it was an assumption and he didn't know for sure.
i feel like you're purposely ignoring parts of his posts to push a narrative.

Of course he could! But from his posts and from our own knowledge, there's no good reason to assume he was wrong. It is only from

your

perspective that it's necessary to postulate uneven scum factional kills. Rauth adding in "I'm assuming we are the same as malediction" does not weaken his the information he conveyed to us in any material way nor should it weaken our own assumptions we can make off night kills.

I'm not sure why this is hard to understand

[ActionDan]

I'd also like to add that as scum my N2 result of no one visiting me would have been pretty risky considering Hugir / Ice to claim targets behind me.

If you're lying about Voyeur itself.

If you're ScumVoyeur, it's super safe.

If scum Voyeur then anytime I claimed would be super safe right? Wassn't the point here trying to find a phantom 2nd redirector in a sea of ostensibly confirmable roles

[ActionDan]

how would bus driver play with Ice role. Just one side becomes unaffected there fore redirector?

[ActionDan]

I don't think that explains it; why would rauth advise red to kill the IC if green was going to turn around and do it anyway?

[ActionDan]

Unfortunately, I don't think that's ai for them. We could try flashwagoning them though if you want to.

I agree it is null, but right now I think both the alternatives are more likely to be town than a shot in the dark. And there is the theory that when multiple replacements happen, they are

slightly

more likely to be scum, because knowing you lost a partner can be demoralizing. Yes, I admit that is weak.

I'm setting my clock to wake me before the deadline, should I need to change my vote.

UNVOTE: IceDragon70
VOTE: KawaiiKame

*SNIP*

Is this game predicated on finding what faction is the town faction? I like you saying that only one informed minority was actually compatible with town, does an uninformed minority potentially exist/does only an uninformed majority exist? I like this post a lot, an informed minority compatible with town ending up being a threat to town is highly useful info, same with Rauth feeling uninformed thus most likely town.

I like this post a lot this deep analysis feels town to me.

Uhh... what...?

Seriously, I was not analyzing anything with this post. I was just sharing an anecdote from years ago, and its only relevance was how rare it is to have non-town factions that can win with town.

A few hours until deadline and you start a new wagon?

WTF is this.

VOTE: Rauth

Fine with Dragon as well, but not sure Feysal is on about.

-Drew

one of their last posts of the day, and they were never gonna be seen as on Rauth's side.

Explains this EBWOP

[ActionDan]

I don't think that explains it; why would rauth advise red to kill the IC if green was going to turn around and do it anyway?

it's possible he knew they didnt have a factional kill. why would he talk to red anyways? they arent on the same team. Could have been to imply Red was making the kill that green did.

I think that gives more merit to green making that kill tbh

The more likely reason was to avoid double killing. Again, it really does not sound from Rauth's posts at the time he was unnecessarily lying. Those posts had a rather obvious purpose to me. Reread them - what do you think?

[ActionDan]

Maybe I'll ask the audience since we've gone over this so many times: Do you agree or not?

I'll reiterate my stances:

1) if factions are symmetrical as Rauth thinks they are in 604 even if he 100% doesn't know then 600 was pointless to say if they had a non-standard kill as Malediction would likely know already benediction couldn't shoot.
2) contextually we have an unclaimed cop power from scum in the game which easily fits what he is talking about, moreover he's responding to post specifically asking him to target the other scumteam
3) 604 makes no difference to the info he's provided materially. No one can be sure of anything in this game.

Also none of what he's said in this posts strikes me as a lie. Your milage may vary though.

Like the evidence is that you were roleblocked twice and there's only been one kill a night. Rauth's posts do not present and imo only strengthen if anything the fact that each side has a standard factional kill and have something else non-standard in other ways, i.e., the cop

cut by a bunch

[ActionDan]

this only makes sense if Abnegation is scum who was making the kills, imo. is this what you are pushing?

YES LOL

[ActionDan]

Like you're rationalizing Ab not being green scum and thus going for Feysal green scum because of it. Whereas I think best green scum candidate is Ab atm.

[ActionDan]

Posts: 33398
Joined: July 18, 2017
Location: San Francisco
Contact: Contact Flavor Leaf
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Post Post #1279 (ISO) » Sat Apr 22, 2023 11:20 pm

Te fact Feysal waited until after Rauth showed up and gave up is nasty to me.

I really do think Feysal just flips Green here like 90% of the time.

I maintain that the only one to not look greenscum from Rauth Wagon and VCA is me. I do not think Feysal has more chance than others from that based on their votes and why the votes were made imo. I do not deny its that looking only at the votes for rauth over the course of D1 from Feysal precludes them from being Greenscum. As you said if that were the case the interpretation of them would be distancing and then backing out when they accrued votes. If you'd like we can go over all of the votes for Rauth / Ice over the course of D1.

cut: are you talking about 600?

Which unfortunately could be reasoned out anyways, so. Ah well. And also in interest of supporting my win con, I'm afraid I should tell Malediction that Benediction will not be shooting Hell Froze Over tonight.

Again I want to ask the audience. I don't get that from this post. or 603

[ActionDan]

Neither Benediction or Malediction's intent in finding each other is to kill, but something else, though death will be the end result

This reads to me as "We are not out to kill [Malediction], but [Expose them], though death will be the end result [by town's hands]". Your interpretation is "We can't kill [Malediction], but [fuck them up], though death will be the end result".

I think my way is better and even if yours is correct, we can see at one of them can kill invocation targets just fine. Again no reason to suspect this isn't symmetrical.

[ActionDan]

Sounds good.

VOTE: Abnegation

[ActionDan]

I'm going to play video games and enjoy my night for a while. Can Enchant / IC / Keeper exist in the meantime. Thanks.

[ActionDan]

Whatcha playing?

League, my computer's gpu has been so fucked up for the past few months that I can't play fun steam games anymore. So its League or netflix. or DBD on console but my desire to play that game comes and goes.

As far as I'm concerned I've made the best effort I could to look at Abnegations points and I simply do not agree / see what they see. there might be a couple other ways to explain one kill a night so far aside from the probable jailkeeping of scum but they sure don't exist in abnormal kills from Rauth's posts.

[ActionDan]

Their claim is risky if false: investigatives would be able to disprove the claim in certain scenarios.

Is it really that risky? Even were you a cop with the specific ability to bypass the miller requirement at the very least you're reducing the nights you worry about it by 1/2 and discouraging being checked regardless by its plausibility. The last game with a miller claim I played in turned out to be scum (Traitor though).

Current thoughts:

Still don't think Furtive is scum. I am feeling pretty strongly that attaching yourself to enchant presents more ways to get you killed than keep you alive and is only somewhat useful to the red scum if Furtive went down before their partner.

Of the rest. Ab is very very likely green. Logic (tm) is going to win out there over feels.

FL I am coming around to, but not completely, looking like town. At the very least the effort / energy (what these new kids call WIM) looks the part and it does not seem like I'm talking to a wall.

Feysal I would like to think is town still but I have noticed their energy looks somewhat sapped today.

Keeper doesn't exist and probably has the best red scum equity of everone.

If my baseline assumptions about everyone else are correct Hugir becomes red by POE. I have felt they have played quite decently townie but there are now two (unequal) pieces of circumstantial against them; anti-redirect role exists + Aisa did suspect them and Aisa is dead.

In any case if you guys want red instead of green, I think we should all turn around and vote keeper. just so we don't lose pretty much immediately on Mine or Hugir's flips if Hugir town.

I'll be working all day tomorrow but I will be able to occasionally skim fast during the day and will be able to post a couple hours before deadline anyway.

[ActionDan]

I was disturbed so that checks out.

well I very much thought it would be a 2v1 and we're all screwed night. Guess we still have a fighting chance.

Waiting on enchant now

[ActionDan]

I gotta look back at the Loverizer talk and who was talking about ‘scum can’t resist a 2 for 1’

This was at least me. I mean the implications of this not happening is... something to consider.

[ActionDan]

*Dons fake twirly mustache and long sideways cigarette holder; takes puff*

The evil voice

So you've caught me, does it feel good that you had to use a cop to do it, damn you!

Well I'm not going out alone. I'm going to drop some info.

Hugir is green.

Definitively green.

Malediction and Benediction are symmetrical in nature of factional abilities; Those include a conditional factional kill and a factional conditional publishing cop. They are both rather simple. Our kills only work on town not on each other. Our cop is published only if we get a negative result, if positive it is privately relayed to us. Our team used it N1 on Keeper opted not to use it N2 and used it N3 on Hugir (who at that point was obviously green to me anyway).

2ndly my role is not voyeur at all. I have no idea who or who did not target me. I am a deflector, and the clearly analogous green scum role is redirector.

I dislike the fact that I feel obligated to screw over the other scumteam in this manner but I'm pretty much forced to by the setup. You're all welcome to take my words with a grain of salt but if you read the thread you'll see they're true (as were rauth's posts)

Good luck to all!

*shoots self*

VOTE: ActionDan

[ActionDan]

A good question, not one we can answer as ours are accounted for. I already assume I was targeted N1, N2 easy to explain, N3 well shrug

[ActionDan]

Not answering that.

[ActionDan]

The only questions I will willingly answer will be clarifications on why Hugir is green scum. Thus, Higir you may not want to ask questions

[ActionDan]

I will not answer questions that may or may not compromise my partner(s)

[ActionDan]

No comment

[ActionDan]

Yup

[ActionDan]

Until you claimed redirector. Then I thought it was very possibly you

[ActionDan]

Kekeke

[ActionDan]

Want to aim for a draw? Is it possible le?

[ActionDan]

Also when did you think I was scum?

[ActionDan]

I have a game maybe if draw not possible. Do your best to kill whoever the remainder of town thinks my partner is. Let them vote in thread. Most votes buys your kill .

[ActionDan]

O god dont remind me. That game slipped from my fingers. But it was very fun.

I was almost tempted to claim 2-shot bloodhound this game

[ActionDan]

Actually draw should be totally possible based on mutual destruction. You can just name your kill and we kill around it. Any announcing poison and deal goes awry? Feels like that works should get to 2-1-1 at least with my flip

[ActionDan]

o7

[ActionDan]

Cackles

[ActionDan]

Would anyone like some more WIFOM with your WIFOM?

[ActionDan]

OK this is so brutal. Time for the actual reveal.


It's been 3v3 the whole time, scum have alternating kills,

And enchant,


Your the only town alive

[ActionDan]

VOTE: draw

[ActionDan]

oh that's a webcomic. Looks like baccano for cats

[ActionDan]

watched it; good stuff

[ActionDan]

Ggwp!

Thanks all and especially GIF for being a good sport and gracious at the end.

Fun game, probably balanced but by nature of the roles very swingy any faction could be sunk quickly by nature of the roles. Imagine the chaos that could happen 2 kills a night and actual cop results flying around

Pedit: wow boonskies you're making me blush

[ActionDan]

And ofc special mention to my partner for clutching it out!

[ActionDan]

Am happy to release scum qt without objection

[ActionDan]

Hugir robbed us of 2 kills TT.

Imagine a keeper, FL, Hugir, AD, Feysal D4

[ActionDan]

Feysal meta:

Faraday