Open 879: Fire and More Fire [game over]

[Bingle]

GeorgeBailey

[Bingle]

So, I have this plan. First of all, we do absolutely nothing until the game needs a replacement. We convince the worst to replace in, and as always happens the worst will roll SK and shoot scum. Then we lim the worst and his lover dies with him. Foolproof.

[Bingle]

...bingle is a jingle alt with one letter different? Why? Feels like a personal attack on my brain.

Short Answer: Blame FakeGod.

Long Answer: FakeGod convinced me to make the Bingle alt and I use it to separate modding and playing.

Also, clearly I'm GeorgeBailey.

All of you should recognize me.

[Bingle]

Have you ever seen me and George Bailey in the same room as a mirror? I rest my case.

[Bingle]

oh my god… Bingle and GeorgeBailey are mirrors

[Bingle]

hi I am meuh

But are you sure?

[Bingle]

VOTE: cook

[Bingle]

are you saying my face is bad? what the fuck man

get a more memorable face ig

Might I suggest this one?

[Bingle]

GeorgeBailey

GeorgeBailey?

[Bingle]

Furbrunger town, cook scum, easy game.

[Bingle]

I know my posts are good but reading them four times seems a bit excessive

The seventeenth time I read this post I printed out 200 copies of it and started a murderboard.

[Bingle]

Sky gazer is town, btw.

[Bingle]

Towwl is there a particular reason you jumped to thinking that playing with fire was a scumslip instead of using the idiom in the traditional sense of “engaging in a dangerous activity” like, I dunno, an RVS E-1?

[Bingle]

Counter counterpoint: skygazer is a compulsive liar, so that obvious means she can’t be scum.

[Bingle]

counter counter counterpoint: there are two skygazers, and one only tells the truth and one only lies

As French swordspeople might say, Tushy.

[Bingle]

so you just ask em "who is the opposite of what the other one says i should vote" and then you, like, take the opposite or something.

You can't ask subjective questions of absolutist answerers, it leads to a Turing breakdown.

[Bingle]

Howdy all.

Gonna read up shortly.

I still should be recognized by everyone involved in this game.

[Bingle]

I'm more convinced by the ausuka case I haven't posted yet than by the towwl case I haven't posted yet.

[Bingle]

Bingle keeps a case on every player locked in a vault as a contingency plan for if any of them go rogue

[Bingle]

Bingle keeps a case on every player locked in a vault as a contingency plan for if any of them go rogue

Sounds like that could be easily exploited if the Mafia ever find a way into his vault and turned his cases against the Town

That's why I keep the combination to the vault in the most secure location I know. The stall wall of the truck stop bathroom.

[Bingle]

ill forgive this one since youre probably catching up and you might not have read the rest of the explanation. you get the benefit of the doubt on this one but no more get out of jail free cards left for you

We get get out of jail free cards? brb, robbing a bank.

[Bingle]

And since the Mafia is split between the lover pairs here, I'd expect scum to be a bit more careful when looking for targets, since the usual kind of things Town can do to look scummy that normally makes them easy mislim targets, could also just as easily be from the other scum pair.

This, btw. Towwl's tone and everything came across as super careful which is probably scum in this setup, akshually, and the reason for scumreading ausuka was a very shallow one that was unlikely to be a hit.

The reason I'm scumreading Ausuka is because that same post from her looks like scum trying to signal other scum that she is in fact scum.

VOTE: ausuka

[Bingle]

He's already gone, there's really no need to keep piling on insults

Pretty sure the insult was aimed at me, .

[Bingle]

I think the 'insult' in question was you saying I'm actively killing your braincells, which, tbf, I don't find all that insulting, given that I've got about half of the thread beat on postcount with just my shitposts.

[Bingle]

I think "signalling to other scum" is a really fundamentally extremely obviously idiotic idea and I am curious about why Bingle does not.seem to think that

Because I've literally pulled it off before.

[Bingle]

No, in a different setup as a mafia traitor when it was confirmed that there was a mafia traitor, and slightly more protected by a layer of it not being immediately obvious because it relied on knowledge of the identities of the scum team.

Do you think there is no desire in scum to figure out who the other scum are to NOT lim/kill them?

[Bingle]

Because all they have to do is plant the seed of doubt in other mafia? Why not crumb a message to the other team if you can just pass it off as "obviously it was a joke"?

[Bingle]

Worst case scenario for scum is any of four scum being limmed today, because it means they have to kill literally twice as many townies. (not exact math, but you get the picture)

Scum don't know who other scum are, so I expect before this point they would have been gunshy about pursuing any individual lim seriously. They want to lim someone who looks scummy but isn't really likely to be scum.

[Bingle]

Because if town believes it was just a joke mafia would do so equally? If mafia doubts it town would do the same?

The threshhold on believing it enough to eliminate the slot is higher than the threshhold to shoot another townread. I feel like that should be pretty obvious. I also feel like at this point you agree with me that there is a scum motivation behind crumbing your alignment and also that you think that the joke wasn't likely to be seen as incriminating, which is pretty much the whole point of my argument. I'm not going to convince you that it was signalling (you know, cause you already know whether it was or not) but I would like to thank you for illustrating to the rest of the players why it potentially being signalling is scummy.

[Bingle]

Ausuka's interactions with Bingle feel very reminiscent of Ausuka in the other games I've played with her
Her gameplay in general does tbh
Either she's very good at emulating it or she's just town again, willing to assume the latter for now

VOTE: towel

I am a big believer in omgus theory

Getting town Ausuka energy here but I've never played with her as scum so I'm not sure what I should even be looking for

Hm.

[Bingle]

Meuh, what about Rat are you townreading?

[Bingle]

here ill quote it so everyone whos confused can just re-read until they understand what it says

you dont have any, they're reserved for people ive played with in the past and who werent actively killing my brain cells

Now you're just being mean. Forgetting poor old Jingle, not knowing of our deep and abiding history. You're gonna make me cry.

[Bingle]

if anyone wants to guess how many shots of vodka i've had i'll give you my vote

Like cumulatively?

Hmmm... assuming you've been drinking for ~ten years, we'll say average amount of specifically vodka to be ~2 shots a week to accommodate other types of alcohols and dry spells, my guess is 1400 shots.

[Bingle]

im pretty sure weve never played before

I'm sure I knew your username coming into this game, but I also don't see any games in your topics that any of the various mes have been in. I'll retract my not caring about calling me out on my shitposting, as clearly I was wrong on you calling me out on my shitposting.

[Bingle]

I have had no issues with Osuka's posting. As far as I'm concerned, he can continue fucking on as long as he wants.

[Bingle]

Ya I just realized I need to be more subtle about it. Was just so excited to sub into a scum slot.

Pffft. You'll never roll mafia. Just cult. Cult forever.

[Bingle]

Could you not? I've seen how bad you are as a cult leader. I was by far the best Dr. Rockso.

[Bingle]

That's not very GeorgeBailey of you, furbrunger.

[Bingle]

Almost want to call FB a townlean for the gimmick but I'm pretty sure he decided on it before the game started, so nah

Should've decided you were going to townlean Furbringer for his gimmick pregame. Saves a lot of time and effort.

[Bingle]

hi i saw a replacement happen

what should i know about the state of the game as it is right now

People are complaining about mech talk when there is no mech talk. I brought up the possibility that scum was signaling each other and the pushback is that while what I think ausuka did has scum value and ausuka has stated she doesn’t think town would punish her for doing the thing with scum value, it is unreasonable for me to think ausuka would do the valuable thing that shouldn’t be punished as scum.

[Bingle]

i should clarify; what im talking about isnt really mechtalk, its what typically takes mechtalk's place in a not-especially-mechanically-heavy setup, and thats very subjective theorycrafting discussed in a very objective sense about what to expect from each alignment in a given setup. its almost always distracting, annoying, self-indulgent at best and scum-motivated at worst. this kind of d1 discussion typically starts with scum in my experience and usually succeeds in distracting town discussions from real scumhunting.

Except I'm not theory crafting either. I'm saying Ausuak did X. I think scum wants to do X. Therefore I think Ausuka is >rand to be scum.

If you're legitimately saying you think that people who say that they think it is more likely for scum to point out things they think are scummy, then I don't really know what to tell you. Because that's dumb as shit.

[Bingle]

Bulge is arguing that it's scummy that I'm calling out Ausuka for doing a thing I find scummy. (In this case, making herself less likely to be shot.)

[Bingle]

i should clarify; what im talking about isnt really mechtalk, its what typically takes mechtalk's place in a not-especially-mechanically-heavy setup, and thats very subjective theorycrafting discussed in a very objective sense about what to expect from each alignment in a given setup. its almost always distracting, annoying, self-indulgent at best and scum-motivated at worst. this kind of d1 discussion typically starts with scum in my experience and usually succeeds in distracting town discussions from real scumhunting.

@Umlaut: This, roughly, boils down to: Saying things are scummy.

[Bingle]

"Pushed towwl" is a bit of a stretch, tbh.

[Bingle]

i should clarify; what im talking about isnt really mechtalk, its what typically takes mechtalk's place in a not-especially-mechanically-heavy setup, and thats very subjective theorycrafting discussed in a very objective sense about what to expect from each alignment in a given setup. its almost always distracting, annoying, self-indulgent at best and scum-motivated at worst. this kind of d1 discussion typically starts with scum in my experience and usually succeeds in distracting town discussions from real scumhunting.

@Umlaut: This, roughly, boils down to: Saying things are scummy.

I... guess I can believe you'd get that out of it, but what I understand the Bulge to be talking about here is: engaging in arguments about whether some thing is/isn't a scumtell, as a way of avoiding more object-level arguments about which players are/aren't scum.

But that is, again, not what I’m doing. I’m saying that ausuka did a scummy thing. When asked why the thing was scummy, I responded. If bulge is arguing that I’m trying to frame the thread around theory, that’s a misrep. If he’s arguing that pushing things you think are scummy is scummy that’s a stupid fucking argument. Ergo: the push is garbage.

[Bingle]

Let me describe to you the Bingle master scum game for all of those in attendance to be aware of.

1) Talk about a lot of mech.
2) Be extremely affable and sarcastic
3) Position your reads in ways easy to move around later

Stop, you’re going to make me blush.

You’re not quite right though. I don’t consciously try to make my reads easy to navigate later. I’m just good at faking natural progressions from any sort of read.

Firbrunger is still the town on my wagon. Would compromise on mech votes. Think ausuka is scum.

[Bingle]

Meuh, not mech

[Bingle]

I agree with RR in 426 and I think they are right when it comes to scum benefiting from all of the signals being pointed out. These two seem on a course to 1v1 by just not agreeing here but I feel like it's t/t atm

I'm sensing some frustration in Bingle's time but I like the way he's pushing Ausuka while also defending his position. The frustration feels like it might come from having a big wagon formed on him already and I think that town is more likely to let this frustration show

The frustration isn’t with the wagon, fwiw. I like early wagons on me. My frustration is specifically with being accused of ‘mech talk’ when that’s like perpendicular to what I’ve been doing.

[Bingle]

Did you just call me TWTBAW

Would it be better if she’d said you were to faux to be a fox?

[Bingle]

Merlyn, granting arguendo that that qualifies as a push on towwl, what do you like about that push?

I like that it's on someone I found scummy

Did you also like that it was a blatant OMGUS with reasoning after the fact and that there was literally no follow through?

[Bingle]

At least one scum on Ausuka, scum loveeeeee jumping on the classic day 1 Ausuka wagon (which I would know because I have)

Who is it and why?

[Bingle]

i should also point out that it's not at all what the bulge was saying in 388. read it again, and then keep reading it until you understand it

There are two options: either the bulge is voting me for something I’m not doing or the bulge is pushing something colossally stupid. I acknowledge both options there.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Meuh

I’ll probably do a readslist tonight.

Pedit: I think both Meuh and merlyn are defending ausuka much more strongly than anything ausuka’s done merits, FWIW.

[Bingle]

Composition wise, I definitely like the Bingle wagon better than the Ausuka wagon

Assuming this means explicitly the people voting me and not the people expressing interest yet avoiding the wagon itself, agreed. I think there might be one scum on me, but the wagon itself seems decently town.

[Bingle]

I’m sorry I haven’t been able to make the big posts I want to this game but I was at Walmart two days ago and as a direct result all of the fluids in my body have decided they want to be outside of my body as quickly as possible, with no discretion about which orifice they use. Hopefully tonight.

[Bingle]

Alright:

First, wagon on me:

Ausuka - Primarily, voting me as OMGUS. I still think Ausuka isn't particularly towny, but generally her placement on my wagon isn't a really scummy one.
Firebringer - Voting me for a meta case (and a bad one). His case on me is that I'm not doing a thing that's NAI for me, I'm doing a thing that's NAI for me, and that I'm doing a thing that he claims isn't NAI for me based on a game he was the backup mod for, but which is notably NAI for me. I'm not really a player who can be caught via 'meta case'. Regardless, I believe that Firebringer believes the case, which makes him a fairly strong town read.

The Bulge - Apparently, the main thrust of Bulge's scum read on me was my leading question at Ausuka. I had thought there was a significant portion to do with the mech speak accusation, but on reread it does seem very reasonable that that callout was nonspecific and not actually aimed at me. Bulge's accusation that it's ridiculous I would think so is, imo, silly, since his clarification that it wasn't actually about mechspeak was directly quoting a post about people specifically calling me out for mechspeak. The implication there, to me, was that the 388 was in fact singling me out. I don't really think that is unreasonable. Of the people voting me, I think this is the worst vote, but I don't particularly think it makes Bulge scum.
Invisibility - Vizzy's mostly been sheeping bad cases on me, but the way the way she's doing it doesn't scream scum to me.


Of these 4 I think there is no way there's a pair of scum and that it's unlikely that there are two different scumteams represented. Generally, despite the shit quality of each of the reads, I think they are more likely than not to actually be things the people behind them think. I vaguely agree that the wagon on me is roughly town driven.

[Bingle]

Radical Rat
Firebringer
Invisibility
osuka

The Bulge

Black
Doctor Drew
Umlaut

Bellaphant
Skygazer

Ausuka
Cook
Merlyn
Meuh


This is roughly where I'm at. I wish I had stonger reasons for most of these reasons, but it actually strikes me as significant that I don't really have strong reasons to feel the ways I do about most of these people. I really only feel confident about the top four names, and the rest of this list is very much a matter of gut.

[Bingle]

So, tl;dr: Meuh's 'progression' on Ausuka doesn't feel natural. It doesn't really feel like a reaction to Ausuka's actual play. It feels instead like Meuh feels she HAS to be defensive of Ausuka. I'm not sure if this is a WK situation or a lover situation, but I DO think that if someone thinks Ausuka is scum, Meuh is a far better option. If Meuh is town, then her defense of ausuka means more. If she's scum paired with ausuka, ausuka will become irrelevant when Meuh dies. If she's scum not paired with ausuka, we can then work on figuring out whether the townread was real or a ruse in an attempt to look town.

Spoiler:

VOTE: towel

I am a big believer in omgus theory

Getting town Ausuka energy here but I've never played with her as scum so I'm not sure what I should even be looking for

This seems like a very trite nonread. The acknowledgement that Meuh's meta on ausuka is weak and vague, one sided, and completely uninformed by ausuka's scumplay is very undermining of the read itself, but then literally everything afterwards makes it feel incredibly out of place. Meuh isn't sure of her ability to catch ausuka, until she's suddenly incredibly sure of her ability to read ausuka.

Ausuka's interactions with Bingle feel very reminiscent of Ausuka in the other games I've played with her
Her gameplay in general does tbh
Either she's very good at emulating it or she's just town again, willing to assume the latter for now

VOTE: Ausuka

I want to help Bingle's cause here. I don't really think she was signaling tbh, and my first impression from Ausuka's posts was that she felt confident in what she was saying. Initially I liked this but after reading over her ISO the confidence reads little scummy to me. Part of this has to do with me personally being more confident when I'm scum, and I know I can't really accurately apply that to other people but I want to push this gut feeling and this wagon anyway

Ausuka joins game -> rolls town -> gets into 1v1 early on in day 1 -> OMGUSes the other player in the 1v1 -> gets scumread for confidence and for her behaviour in those interactions -> eventually flips -> flips town -> Ausuka joins game -> rolls town -> gets into 1v1 early on in day 1 -> OMGUSes the other player in the 1v1 -> gets scumread for confidence and for her behaviour in those interactions -> eventually flips -> flips town -> Ausuka joins game -> rolls town -> gets into 1v1 early on in day 1 -> OMGUSes the other player in the 1v1 -> gets scumread for confidence and for her behaviour in those interactions -> eventually flips -> flips town -> Ausuka joins game -> rolls town -> gets into 1v1 early on in day 1 -> OMGUSes the other player in the 1v1 -> gets scumread for confidence and for her behaviour in those interactions -> eventually flips -> flips town -> Ausuka joins game -> rolls town -> gets into 1v1 early on in day 1 -> OMGUSes the other player in the 1v1 -> gets scumread for confidence and for her behaviour in those interactions -> eventually flips -> flips town -> Ausuka joins game -> rolls town -> gets into 1v1 early on in day 1 -> OMGUSes the other player in the 1v1 -> gets scumread for confidence and for her behaviour in those interactions -> eventually flips -> flips town ->

The growth in confidence doesn't seem warranted. The exaggeration here is explicitly exaggeration. Meuh has seen two Ausuka games. Literally two. This post is 6 iterations. Saying that that isn't a ridiculous exaggeration is laughable.

At least one scum on Ausuka, scum loveeeeee jumping on the classic day 1 Ausuka wagon (which I would know because I have)

Not only is this flawed, (other people will act the way I do because I act that way) but it doesn't really lead anywhere. Meuh does push at Black, but that was limp and later characterized as mostly for pressure. I think, if Meuh actually thought there was a very strong likelihood that scum were pushing Ausuka, attempts to sort umlaut and drew have been... not at all there. In fact, Meuh's take on Drew is: "That sure is a Drew post." That doesn't seem like someone thinking drew is a high priority sort.

Played with her twice, she was town both times and this happened in both games, sure she could still be theoretically scum but it's enough to find the Ausuka wagon bad

So this only happened twice? Ok so it is an exaggeration

Ausuka getting into spicy 1v1s early on in day 1, getting voted by the other player in the 1v1 and OMGUSing them, then getting scumread for her confidence in that situation is a specific enough thing that I think twice in two games is enough to form a pattern? Or do I need a 50 game sample size? Calling this an exaggeration feels like an exaggeration

No it doesn't? It feels like literally the truth.

VOTE: Meuh

I’ll probably do a readslist tonight.

Pedit: I think both Meuh and merlyn are defending ausuka much more strongly than anything ausuka’s done merits, FWIW.

Yeah but, but it's not really whether Ausuka deserves to be defended because she's posting so town, it's that the arguments being made against her are full of holes.

Exaaaaaaaaactly

The 'cases' on Ausuka:

I was pinged by an RVS phase post.
Umlaut thinks that Ausuka hasn't done much to be worth townreading.
Black thinks that Ausuka's confidence is ill supported, which according to Meuh is... true. Ausuka according to the two games that somehow result in a 6 iteration loop, usually comes across as overconfident.
Drew is sheeping.

I can understand not being convinced by any of these (or all of these) but 'full of holes' is a pretty strong stance. And also, Meuh doesn't dispute that Ausuka hasn't done much to be townread. Her defense basically sums up to "Ausuka is usually pushed as town".

In addition to Meuh's interactions with Ausuka, I think the specific push against Sky is telling as well. It's not completely irrelevant that Sky was wrong about having WK'd ausuka to Sky's alignment. It is completely bullshit that Sky not having WK'd Ausuka means scumMeuh wouldn't want to WK Ausuka. And the Sky push feels to me like a severe deflection from that. I feel like it's previous obvious that Meuh WOULD benefit from protecting scumpartner Ausuka. I feel like it's pretty obvious that scumMeuh WOULD benefit from Ausukatown or Ausukaotherscum. And I absolutely think that the unnatural progression from Meuh looks like WKing.

[Bingle]

you say it's the worst vote on you, so do you refute my reasoning as i just explained it? i think my vote on the wagon has the most substance to it by far, what makes it worse than a purported omgus vote, a bad meta case, and a sheep?

Worst in the sense that of the four votes, I see the most scum intention behind it, which is not much. OMGUS votes are generally NAI, I think Vizzy's blind sheeping is actually pretty towny, and I think Firebringers shitcase is actually very towny.

[Bingle]

if your wagon is townlead, with ausuka as the most likely scum, what do you think is more likely: that scum is scumreading you? biding their time? pushing elsewhere?

I'd expect that they're mostly staying out of it. If I get flipped today, I think the people on that wagon would be under a lot of scrutiny. I don't think that makes sense to look for scumreads.

Compare Drew/Meuh/Rat and the people who are basically ignoring the wagon entirely.

They're all kind of just dancing around my wagon, not committing to it but also not really condemning it. I think that's where scum likely is.

[Bingle]

but what i'm seeing is defensiveness, bad faith readings of several points against you, plus what i've talked about [enough already] regarding a lack of authentic scumhunting

I think the first is true. I have been defensive about people calling me out for mechspeak, but mostly because I explicitly don't think that's a thing I'm doing this game and it irks me that people are pushing me for a thing that I always get pushed for despite it being entirely NAI for me when I'm not even doing it in the first place.

I don't think anything I've done has been a bad faith reading of a point against me. It's entirely possible I've been misreading points against me, and I've been answering with more than my usual level of snark, but I don't think any of it was bad faith.

I also don't think I've been lacking in the scumhunting arena, and would be interested in why you think my scumhunting compares unfavorably with say, Ausuka. In fact I'd go so far as to say that I'm probably being one of the most proactive players about trying to work out other player's alignments, along the same levels as you, Black, and Umlaut. It's less than historical for me, but I've also been sick and have had less time to devote to mafia in general over the last month historically.

[Bingle]

Hope you're ok Bingle!

I'll be fine. I just made the questionable decision of buying a fruit cup from their grab-n-go because I didn't have time for lunch and have been paying for it. Thanks for the thoughts though!

[Bingle]

I haven't been dancing around the Bingle wagon, I have been pretty clear I don't think anything they have done seems scummy and I don't have any interest in joining it.

Sure you have. You've not had any interest in joining it, but that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't think scum will really want to hop on my wagon here. You also haven't done any real defending of me, which is reasonable. I don't particularly scumread your lack of involvement in the wagon, but it is where I expect scum to be atm. Similarly, Meuh also doesn't 'have any interest in joining it'. Compare: Umlaut and Merlyn actively defending me, although not particularly strongly.

[Bingle]

I’d be interested in Ausuka/Merlyn takes on meuhs response to sg being you didn’t wk ausuka compared to scum wouldn’t wk ausuka.

[Bingle]

has anyone mentioned that the IC should just out btw?

That's a stupid thought. The IC gets more powerful the longer they are hidden, functionally can't die to day play and is unlikely to die to night play, until outing. The IC outing ensures they die tonight and no scum gets shot.

[Bingle]

That's a stupid thought. The IC gets more powerful the longer they are hidden, functionally can't die to day play and is unlikely to die to night play, until outing. The IC outing ensures they die tonight and no scum gets shot.

Ah, I forgot about doublekill cancelling the kill. Still, IC outing should reduce chances of scum being shot, not increase them. I'm not going to talk more about why, because if scum can't work out how to play their powers, I'm not going to help.

[Bingle]

if you're town, why would scum not jump on your wagon?

I don't think scum is the majority of my wagon, and I don't think scum is going to want to stick their necks out for me. Hence...

[Bingle]

unless i missed something - why are you offering reads on the people on your wagon? what is this?

Why would I not analyze the biggest wagon as literally the only person who knows for sure it's on town? What? Did you get into SG's acid, osuka?

[Bingle]

Meuh [1]: Bingle

This is a bad vote

Also Datisi is still scum

Better than yours.

[Bingle]

I think it was towny because it was a good point about skygazer being sus rather than trying to defend herself from a vague hypothetical which wasn't really substantiated (and I also disagree with being a self proclaimed expert on ausuka)

Do you think scum like to WK you? Do you think meuh's defense of you is justified? I know you said you were going to let meuh speak for herself, but frankly I care more about what you have to say about her treatment of you than what she has to say atm.

[Bingle]

unless i missed something - why are you offering reads on the people on your wagon? what is this?

Why would I not analyze the biggest wagon as literally the only person who knows for sure it's on town? What? Did you get into SG's acid, osuka?

that post is just sort of shit and it makes no sense to me. if your analysis of the biggest wagon on none other than yourself is “everyone’s town, they have good reasons, fucking rainbows and sunshine”, isn’t that just one step short of a scumclaim? you somehow simultaneously made yourself look worse, the wagon look better, and did all of that while inexplicably adding zero meaningful content other than the fact that you clearly don’t have good (or real?) reads on any of the people voting you

[Bingle]

I am a very intelligent player and i disagree mr mech player

[Bingle]

Oh, sorry. I ignored:

what exactly makes it the worst vote then?

Cause I'd already answered it and assumed you'd just keep reading.

you say it's the worst vote on you, so do you refute my reasoning as i just explained it? i think my vote on the wagon has the most substance to it by far, what makes it worse than a purported omgus vote, a bad meta case, and a sheep?

Worst in the sense that of the four votes, I see the most scum intention behind it, which is not much. OMGUS votes are generally NAI, I think Vizzy's blind sheeping is actually pretty towny, and I think Firebringers shitcase is actually very towny.

[Bingle]

at first this scanned like you avoiding saying something about The Bulge specifically cuz of his more content but blep I guess I can see how The Bulge is just at the bottom cuz that's how ranking things work. Makes me wonder why you even bothered to bring it up, though.

I brought it up because it was a thing I thought and generally it's a good policy to share the things you think that are game relevant unless there's a specific reason not to. If I bring it up, I can discuss it with people. If I don't bring it up I can do not that. One of those options has the possibility of generating readable content.

[Bingle]

Vizzy, why do you think 737 is anything other than laughably stupid?

[Bingle]

also, my memes aren’t from 2012 so i feel like i’m owed points for that

You lost any and all points when you made a post implying people who are wrong are always scum.

[Bingle]

Semantic satiation

Semantic satiation is a psychological phenomenon in which repetition causes a word or phrase to temporarily lose meaning for the listener, who then perceives the speech as repeated meaningless sounds.


I wonder if this is the same thing when you see a word so often you question if you are even spelling it right.

I'm sorry, I'll start being colorful.

Osuka's takes are so bad they're making me worry his water supply might be contaminated with lead.

[Bingle]

So which of the reads in question do you disagree with?

[Bingle]

Real talk, Fire.

Have you ever successfully scumread scum me?

[Bingle]

I don't think anything meuh has said has really been objectionable and a lot of the same things she has said about me in this game, she also said in a past game as town which I've linked - I'm not sure why I should believe meuh doing something I've previously seen town meuh do is supposed to be scummy

Which things? The biggest issue I have with both of you is the giant opaque wall of mutual townread with little reasoning, and the people who are heavily incentivized to mutually defend like that are the scumteam. Point at specific things that make you townread meuh and help me see what it is you see. Tell me why it's reasonable that meuh went from "eh maybe ausuka scum" to "pushing ausuka is really scummy" with very little from you in the middle. Show me exactly what meuh has done here that would be difficult to replicate as scum. I don't give a shit if it's "Post 3 pinged me as gut town." just give something that isn't vague as shit.

[Bingle]

GeorgeBailey demands everyone submit one player that they would never elim day one.

GeorgeBailey will use this information for research purposes.
Don't need an explanation.

Just need a name.

I submit the name Meuh.
You must submit a name before day ends or face a stern looking GerogeBailey

Stop openwolfing, FB.

[Bingle]

Semantic satiation

Semantic satiation is a psychological phenomenon in which repetition causes a word or phrase to temporarily lose meaning for the listener, who then perceives the speech as repeated meaningless sounds.


I wonder if this is the same thing when you see a word so often you question if you are even spelling it right.

I'm sorry, I'll start being colorful.

Osuka's takes are so bad they're making me worry his water supply might be contaminated with lead.

i don’t want you to be colorful, i want you to explain why you think my takes are bad. so far you’ve only said they’re bad but you haven’t actually offered a reason as to why

Okay. You suggested that townreading people who are scumreading me is a scumclaim. Do you think it’s impossible to have a townread on someone voting you? Which of those bits of analysis do you disagree with and why?

[Bingle]

unless i missed something - why are you offering reads on the people on your wagon? what is this?

Why would I not analyze the biggest wagon as literally the only person who knows for sure it's on town? What? Did you get into SG's acid, osuka?

that post is just sort of shit and it makes no sense to me. if your analysis of the biggest wagon on none other than yourself is “everyone’s town, they have good reasons, fucking rainbows and sunshine”, isn’t that just one step short of a scumclaim? you somehow simultaneously made yourself look worse, the wagon look better, and did all of that while inexplicably adding zero meaningful content other than the fact that you clearly don’t have good (or real?) reads on any of the people voting you

This is the post in question.

You say that my post sucks because... I think the four people on my wagon have shown reasonable progressions for being on my wagon.

You characterize that as "everyone's town, they have good reasons, fucking rainbows and sunshine" which is itself a gross misrep of y'know, actual reasons why none of the votes are particularly scummy to me. Then you say that thinking the votes on me aren't from scum is "one step short of a scumclaim.

What part of that isn't an implication that people scumreading you can't be town?

[Bingle]

I feel like I've wandered into a bizarre land where everyone speaks a language just slightly different from English. I'd be fine with Drew, cook/sheep, SkyG, Meuh lims atp. I still think ausuka/meuh makes a lot of sense as a pair, and I'm pretty baffled by any townread on either of them. I'm vaguely feeling better about Merlyn from engagement with her. Umlaut feels town in the exact same way he did as scum in Coalition, in that he's being reasonable and actually makes sense, which makes me paranoid. Not a D1, but don't let him near XLO if I'm the lim today.

[Bingle]

Rat, give it to me straight. Am I the one not making any sense?

[Bingle]

Sure, Merlyn.

I know my posts are good but reading them four times seems a bit excessive

VOTE: towel

I am a big believer in omgus theory

VOTE: towel

I am a big believer in omgus theory

How serious are you here?

I think the whole "i read it four times" thing is pretty performative, and also like 'the joke is actually posturing to seem reasonable' thing seems p stretchy

she responds to somebody sheeping her as "playing with fire" when the title of this game characterizes the mafia as fire.

Hmm ok

VOTE: skygazer

I think this qualifies as a push.

I think this is only loosely a push. You've captured all of it, from the brief jokey pushback against an RVS vote, to the actual OMGUS against said RVS vote an hour later with no intervening towwl posts but with specifically you asking what pings towwl about Ausuka, to the post vote justification about the OMGUS that is "I think I'm a likely scumtarget" when previously she implied that with "I'm a big believer in OMGUS theory". Ausuka then dropped the case over basically nothing, showing a complete lack of follow through on that push in general in order to naked vote someone who had barely posted.

Sorry but glaceon is better

Agreed, Ausuka can be town

This is a townread on a completely NAI joke post. Like, favorite pokemon banter is potentially the least alignment indicative thing in any game thread, ever.

VOTE: Meuh

I’ll probably do a readslist tonight.

Pedit: I think both Meuh and merlyn are defending ausuka much more strongly than anything ausuka’s done merits, FWIW.

Yeah but, but it's not really whether Ausuka deserves to be defended because she's posting so town, it's that the arguments being made against her are full of holes.

And I still don't get how either "Ausuka made this post that pings me" or "Ausuka hasn't been particularly towny" were full of holes.


That is every post you give a reason for your townread of Ausuka. What about that isn't weird?

[Bingle]

I omitted the reads wall, mostly because the spoiler stopped the cntrl f but also because the explanation there made sense to me.

[Bingle]

bang your wife

Jokes on you: she's imaginary, metal, and riddled with communicable diseases.

[Bingle]

My alchohol is decent though. I've got a bottle of Balvenie Doublewood on my desk right now. (#Scotchclub)

[Bingle]

If you have some Lagavulin I may have to vote you though.

Unironically, Lagavulin tastes like the flavor of tar fumes when you work with tar in an enclosed space for too long.

[Bingle]

Lagavulin is the bees knees.

I'm sorry, were you busy being wrong?

[Bingle]

not sure how this stance aligns with your readslist

Not sure why it should. The readslist is generally impressions of each individual player, the wagon analysis was what the game as a whole looks like to me. Basically in one I'm describing an elephant in profile and in the other I'm staring at it's ass. They both talk about the same thing, but they give different impressions.

I don't generally try to figure out a full solve until I'm a lot more confident on reads than I am atm. Is there anyone in particular you think I should have a different read on based on my thoughts on the gamestate?

[Bingle]

On the topic of Rat, because that is my only really nuanced read:

I think scum rat is a lot more careful in their play here. Rat jumped in on bringing cook to E-1 super early in a way that didn't feel like they were afraid of cook flipping before cook had done anything, and rat is someone I think from fairly extensive experience modding them would understand exactly how risky that was and exactly why there was so little to gain. Like, the rat I saw in triplicate doesn't just risk dumping a scumpartner without any attempt to check to see if they're town when dumping a scumpartner is such a bad idea. That rat also realizes A that dumping a scumpartner is a terrible plan and B that they would get basically no towncred from being early on a scumwagon because any remaining scum wouldn't have known they were on a scumwagon. It just doesn't jive with what I know of them as a player.

If I get hammered before I get back to the thread, seriously look at meuh's progression on me. She has been avoiding my wagon from the word go, supporting it from the sidelines and adding to its momentum, but she's noticeably never voting me. She's also done roughly fuckall in the sense of actually creating useful content.

Reciepts:

I like Bulge's case on Bingle but then I look at Bingle's ISO and it's like, hmm. Kind of just wanna leave that slot to sort for later

I'm still leaning Town on Bingle, it's just that he's the townlean I'm most willing to compromise on since it isn't a very strong lean, and it looks like a Town-driven wagon at least.

Feel similarly in the sense that the Bingle wagon is made a lot more appealing by the way it's been pushed and who's been pushing it, though I'm more ???? than townleaning

Alright:

First, wagon on me:

Ausuka - Primarily, voting me as OMGUS. I still think Ausuka isn't particularly towny, but generally her placement on my wagon isn't a really scummy one.
Firebringer - Voting me for a meta case (and a bad one). His case on me is that I'm not doing a thing that's NAI for me, I'm doing a thing that's NAI for me, and that I'm doing a thing that he claims isn't NAI for me based on a game he was the backup mod for, but which is notably NAI for me. I'm not really a player who can be caught via 'meta case'. Regardless, I believe that Firebringer believes the case, which makes him a fairly strong town read.
The Bulge - Apparently, the main thrust of Bulge's scum read on me was my leading question at Ausuka. I had thought there was a significant portion to do with the mech speak accusation, but on reread it does seem very reasonable that that callout was nonspecific and not actually aimed at me. Bulge's accusation that it's ridiculous I would think so is, imo, silly, since his clarification that it wasn't actually about mechspeak was directly quoting a post about people specifically calling me out for mechspeak. The implication there, to me, was that the 388 was in fact singling me out. I don't really think that is unreasonable. Of the people voting me, I think this is the worst vote, but I don't particularly think it makes Bulge scum.
Invisibility - Vizzy's mostly been sheeping bad cases on me, but the way the way she's doing it doesn't scream scum to me.


Of these 4 I think there is no way there's a pair of scum and that it's unlikely that there are two different scumteams represented. Generally, despite the shit quality of each of the reads, I think they are more likely than not to actually be things the people behind them think. I vaguely agree that the wagon on me is roughly town driven.

unless i missed something - why are you offering reads on the people on your wagon? what is this?

I'm pretty sure someone asked them to but I can't for the life of me find the post

[Bingle]

I've not sure if you read it

Real talk? I haven't. I haven't even clicked the link. I've been working long shifts and haven't had the time to do extra work for the game which is not really on you. I'm just doing what I can to make my opinions known in the time I have available.

[Bingle]

Fuck, I like 869 a lot.

I'm not working more than a 10 today, even if the building lights on fire on my way out, but I'm not sure I'll be able to post before I get home. If I'm still alive I'll prioritize this, and I'll self hammer rather than letting no lim happen if it comes to that.

[Bingle]

I said the same thing about skitter

I'm taking this as a compliment of the highest order and there's nothing you can do about it. Like, lowkey, I think that skitter is probably top ten of players I've ever played with and the comparison gives me the warm fuzzies.

[Bingle]

it's the fact that

you admit that they have valid reasons to want to get rid of you and you do NOTHING to address any of their points

. instead, you seem to satisfy yourself with "oh well i guess fair enough". that's ridiculous regardless of your alignment - either that's a huge gamble as scum (one that you don't need to take d1), or it's just piss poor town play.

It's cool how this is literally not true. Like... Not only not true, but requires reading literally 0% of the post you're calling out for that to be your issue with it. Wanna try again without stuffing your mouth full of cowpies first?

Alright:

First, wagon on me:

Ausuka - Primarily, voting me as

OMGUS

. I still think Ausuka isn't particularly towny, but generally her placement on my wagon isn't a really scummy one.
Firebringer - Voting me for a meta case

(and a bad one)

. His case on me is that I'm not doing a thing that's NAI for me, I'm doing a thing that's NAI for me, and that I'm doing a thing that he claims isn't NAI for me based on a game he was the backup mod for, but which is notably NAI for me. I'm not really a player who can be caught via 'meta case'. Regardless, I believe that Firebringer believes the case, which makes him a fairly strong town read.
The Bulge - Apparently, the main thrust of Bulge's scum read on me was my leading question at Ausuka. I had thought there was a significant portion to do with the mech speak accusation, but on reread it does seem very reasonable that that callout was nonspecific and not actually aimed at me.

Bulge's accusation

that it's ridiculous I would think so is, imo,

silly

, since his clarification that it wasn't actually about mechspeak was directly quoting a post about people specifically calling me out for mechspeak. The implication there, to me, was that the 388 was in fact singling me out. I don't really think that is unreasonable. Of the people voting me, I think this is the worst vote, but I don't particularly think it makes Bulge scum.
Invisibility - Vizzy's mostly been

sheeping bad cases

on me, but the way the way she's doing it doesn't scream scum to me.


Of these 4 I think there is no way there's a pair of scum and that it's unlikely that there are two different scumteams represented. Generally, despite the shit quality of each of the reads, I think they are more likely than not to actually be things the people behind them think. I vaguely agree that the wagon on me is roughly town driven.

[Bingle]

Did you forget about me or am I just not interesting enough?

You fit into a subset of Not Towny but also I don't want you to be scum so I'm just kind of ignoring that I don't have a reason not to lim you.

[Bingle]

Just not about loyal roles

You should trust me about loyal roles, given I was right.

[Bingle]

Sheep started the drewgon right after rat said drewsheep were paired

[Bingle]

VOTE: black

Blatantly survivalist.

[Bingle]

Gotta go with them ultra big brain starts when you’re trying not to fall asleep in a bathtub.

[Bingle]

I should be awake in plenty of time to move my vote if I pass out, btw. I’d be down for a lot of options over black, including osuka for the recent blatantly lying about my posts that everyone ignored.

[Bingle]

I was the first to push drew before it was cool and was always down to vote their I think we look pretty unpaired

Only true for the recent wagon, and only when it appeared as though it wasn't a viable wagon.

This is true as far as my sleepy ass brain can remember, and if that’s the case there is a value in sheep scum vanity wagoning drewscum when it’s not viable. If they live long term it might make them seem unpaired and thus towny, which is exactly the kind of tinfoil read I expect of

Titus

rat

[Bingle]

Meuh has been killed night 1. she was a

mafia lover

.

The Bulge has been killed night 1. he was a

townie

.

Skygazer has been killed night 1. they were a

mafia lover

.

it is now day 2.

I AM A FUCKING BOSS.

[Bingle]

Also,

VOTE: osuka

[Bingle]

I’m pretty sure no one shoots lurker sky here, so the kill was probs on Meuh. There’s no way I ever make that kill. Ausuka prolly doesn’t want to kill the slot that’s buddying defending her. Not sure about other people.

[Bingle]

You're aware that neither you nor Fire would have been aware of Meuh being scum OR Black being Town, right?

Assuming you're including my bit here in the question: I think it's fairly obvious that I AT LEAST genuinely thought Meuh might be scum and ALSO I had no reason to shoot a slot that I could simply keep pushing due to her lack of push on me. There's just no reason for me to make that kill over kills that are much safer and less likely to flip a buddy, like say... Invis or FB, both of whom actually voted me for large parts of yesterday.

Similarly, Ausuka doesn't stand to benefit from killing townMeuh, because Meuh was defending Ausuka hard. Scum doesn't generally fancy shooting their own major supporters. Scumsuka wouldn't want to kill scumMeuh or townMeuh, so Scumsuka likely doesn't exist.

SkyG being the kill makes less sense because no one was townreading her and she wasn't pushing anyone. That would be a fucking awful shot.

[Bingle]

Kind of shocked Osuka is alive though?

Why?

[Bingle]

it's the fact that

you admit that they have valid reasons to want to get rid of you and you do NOTHING to address any of their points

. instead, you seem to satisfy yourself with "oh well i guess fair enough". that's ridiculous regardless of your alignment - either that's a huge gamble as scum (one that you don't need to take d1), or it's just piss poor town play.

It's cool how this is literally not true. Like... Not only not true, but requires reading literally 0% of the post you're calling out for that to be your issue with it. Wanna try again without stuffing your mouth full of cowpies first?

Alright:

First, wagon on me:

Ausuka - Primarily, voting me as

OMGUS

. I still think Ausuka isn't particularly towny, but generally her placement on my wagon isn't a really scummy one.
Firebringer - Voting me for a meta case

(and a bad one)

. His case on me is that I'm not doing a thing that's NAI for me, I'm doing a thing that's NAI for me, and that I'm doing a thing that he claims isn't NAI for me based on a game he was the backup mod for, but which is notably NAI for me. I'm not really a player who can be caught via 'meta case'. Regardless, I believe that Firebringer believes the case, which makes him a fairly strong town read.
The Bulge - Apparently, the main thrust of Bulge's scum read on me was my leading question at Ausuka. I had thought there was a significant portion to do with the mech speak accusation, but on reread it does seem very reasonable that that callout was nonspecific and not actually aimed at me.

Bulge's accusation

that it's ridiculous I would think so is, imo,

silly

, since his clarification that it wasn't actually about mechspeak was directly quoting a post about people specifically calling me out for mechspeak. The implication there, to me, was that the 388 was in fact singling me out. I don't really think that is unreasonable. Of the people voting me, I think this is the worst vote, but I don't particularly think it makes Bulge scum.
Invisibility - Vizzy's mostly been

sheeping bad cases

on me, but the way the way she's doing it doesn't scream scum to me.


Of these 4 I think there is no way there's a pair of scum and that it's unlikely that there are two different scumteams represented. Generally, despite the shit quality of each of the reads, I think they are more likely than not to actually be things the people behind them think. I vaguely agree that the wagon on me is roughly town driven.

at mcdonald’s drive thru, can’t be bothered to do quite surgery.

the justifications you have for your wagon are complete trash. omgus is the one real reason you have there and even that’s sort of weak. for the other 3, you just say they’re bad without literally any other context

try again

So, the thing I didn't get to respond to because the thread was locked:

This is osuka, being fake as fuck. The entire interaction, for reference went something like this:

Bingle: "Here are reasons behind everyone voting me actually being town."
Osuka: "Bingle doesn't have any reasons why everyone voting him are town in this post, so clearly he's scum."
Bingle: "What the literal fuck are you talking about, that post is literally the reasons people gave to vote me and why they are both shit and probably come from town. Look, I'll capitalize the bits that are actually me calling out why they're shit."
Osuka: "Bingle didn't share the reasons of the people voting him."

Like, not only is what he's saying not fucking true, it's basically the exact opposite of the actual content of the post.

[Bingle]

unless i missed something - why are you offering reads on the people on your wagon? what is this?

Why would I not analyze the biggest wagon as literally the only person who knows for sure it's on town? What? Did you get into SG's acid, osuka?

that post is just sort of shit and it makes no sense to me. if your analysis of the biggest wagon on none other than yourself is “everyone’s town,

they have good reasons

, fucking rainbows and sunshine”, isn’t that just one step short of a scumclaim? you somehow simultaneously made yourself look worse, the wagon look better, and did all of that while inexplicably adding zero meaningful content other than the fact that you clearly don’t have good (or real?) reads on any of the people voting you

I'll take completely made up bullshit for 500 Alex.

see bingle, the big difference between the two of us is that i regularly call things stupid but

i can always articulate and make clear to everyone the reasons for which it is stupid.

whereas you’ve been flinging shit everywhere the entire time whenever you’re faced with something you disagree with, but you’ve yet to make any overt display of complex, higher-order thought.

Receipts? Cause you haven't done that. You've said I've said things I haven't said, sure, but that's not at all articulating reasons.

unless i missed something - why are you offering reads on the people on your wagon? what is this?

Why would I not analyze the biggest wagon as literally the only person who knows for sure it's on town? What? Did you get into SG's acid, osuka?

that post is just sort of shit and it makes no sense to me. if your analysis of the biggest wagon on none other than yourself is “everyone’s town, they have good reasons, fucking rainbows and sunshine”, isn’t that just one step short of a scumclaim? you somehow simultaneously made yourself look worse, the wagon look better, and did all of that while inexplicably adding zero meaningful content other than the fact that you clearly don’t have good (or real?) reads on any of the people voting you

This is the post in question.

You say that my post sucks because... I think the four people on my wagon have shown reasonable progressions for being on my wagon.

You characterize that as "everyone's town, they have good reasons, fucking rainbows and sunshine" which is itself a gross misrep of y'know, actual reasons why none of the votes are particularly scummy to me. Then you say that thinking the votes on me aren't from scum is "one step short of a scumclaim.

What part of that isn't an implication that people scumreading you can't be town?

none of it is an implication that you can't townread someone that scumreads you. if that's what you got from that, something has gone badly wrong.

i don't really give a shit why you townread any of them - it's not even the fact that you do townread any of them at all. it's the fact that

you admit that they have valid reasons

to want to get rid of you and you

do NOTHING to address any of their points

. instead, you seem to satisfy yourself with "oh well i guess fair enough". that's ridiculous regardless of your alignment - either that's a huge gamble as scum (one that you don't need to take d1), or it's just piss poor town play.

if you have further questions, then please

go back and read it until you have an accurate understanding of what was said

Both provably false. One provably false by being able to read English and looking at my post for longer than the lifespan of the average amoeba, one provably false by looking at literally any of my interactions with Bulge, or the post where I ask FB if he's ever caught scum me, or being able to read English to realize that the words "His case on me is that I'm not doing a thing that's NAI for me, I'm doing a thing that's NAI for me, and that I'm doing a thing that he claims isn't NAI for me based on a game he was the backup mod for, but which is notably NAI for me. I'm not really a player who can be caught via 'meta case'." are in fact reasons that FB should probably reevaluate his dumbtunnel.

it's the fact that

you admit that they have valid reasons

to want to get rid of you and you do NOTHING to address any of their points

. instead, you seem to satisfy yourself with "oh well i guess fair enough". that's ridiculous regardless of your alignment - either that's a huge gamble as scum (one that you don't need to take d1), or it's just piss poor town play.

It's cool how this is literally not true. Like... Not only not true, but requires reading literally 0% of the post you're calling out for that to be your issue with it. Wanna try again without stuffing your mouth full of cowpies first?

Alright:

First, wagon on me:

Ausuka - Primarily, voting me as

OMGUS

. I still think Ausuka isn't particularly towny, but generally her placement on my wagon isn't a really scummy one.
Firebringer - Voting me for a meta case

(and a bad one)

. His case on me is that I'm not doing a thing that's NAI for me, I'm doing a thing that's NAI for me, and that I'm doing a thing that he claims isn't NAI for me based on a game he was the backup mod for, but which is notably NAI for me. I'm not really a player who can be caught via 'meta case'. Regardless, I believe that Firebringer believes the case, which makes him a fairly strong town read.
The Bulge - Apparently, the main thrust of Bulge's scum read on me was my leading question at Ausuka. I had thought there was a significant portion to do with the mech speak accusation, but on reread it does seem very reasonable that that callout was nonspecific and not actually aimed at me.

Bulge's accusation

that it's ridiculous I would think so is, imo,

silly

, since his clarification that it wasn't actually about mechspeak was directly quoting a post about people specifically calling me out for mechspeak. The implication there, to me, was that the 388 was in fact singling me out. I don't really think that is unreasonable. Of the people voting me, I think this is the worst vote, but I don't particularly think it makes Bulge scum.
Invisibility - Vizzy's mostly been

sheeping bad cases

on me, but the way the way she's doing it doesn't scream scum to me.


Of these 4 I think there is no way there's a pair of scum and that it's unlikely that there are two different scumteams represented. Generally, despite the shit quality of each of the reads, I think they are more likely than not to actually be things the people behind them think. I vaguely agree that the wagon on me is roughly town driven.

at mcdonald’s drive thru, can’t be bothered to do quite surgery.

the justifications you have for your wagon are complete trash. omgus is the one real reason you have there and even that’s sort of weak. for the other 3, you just say they’re bad without literally any other context

try again

The "justifications I have for my wagon" is an interesting way of saying "The reasons people were voting me." Bulge and I went over the rest of his read after that post, but at that point that is what had been articulated as to why I was scum. And literally none of Ausuka/Vizzy/FB have argued that their reasons are being misrepresented, so it seems pretty obvious that I, you know, accurately represented their reasons.

like you clearly completely missed the entire explanation i had to painstakingly write after realizing that you're completely incapable of nuance, so i decided to remove nuance and we're still exactly where we started

Oh, no I definitely pointed out that you backpedaled hard from saying untrue things into saying other untrue things.

i could also go back and point out exactly why most of the """reasons""" you wrote down on that original post of yours are either wrong or just straight up nonsense, but i again can't really be bothered to do that since it's obvious that you're either not trying to understand or incapable of it, so you know fuck it

VOTE: osuka

[Bingle]

I'm also at Umlaut here, tbh. The transition from reluctance to vote me all of yesterday to being eager to vote me out for what amounts to information seems sketch as fuck.

[Bingle]

bingle is ur towntell being an asshole or u just trying to match osuka energy here

I don't have one. My towngame and my scumgame are very similar, because I'm good at playing as scum.

[Bingle]

I legitimately don't know why I'm litigating osuka-scum to osuka. If anyone who isn't a colossal waste of time wants to engage me about my reasons for this read, I'm happy to oblige, but I feel like it's pretty obvious that literally all of his poking at me is bad faith.

[Bingle]

Meuh being on black and Skygazer not is largely irrelevant so if you're being genuine with that you might as well color them green.

I don't think scum was likely to care if they were on black or not, given the lack of any real danger for them or their partner at EoD. The only person who was significantly likely to be killed was me, and, well...

[Bingle]

Actually, looking at that wagon, do you think both otherscum were on Black?

[Bingle]

I don't remember taking it seriously as a thing that would actually go through tbh. I expected to be the lim yesterday due to inertia though, and didn't expect the Black wagon to go through either.

[Bingle]

I think he's being pushed pretty hard here, I'd have a hard time being nice under this kind of borderline attacking the player and not the play that's happening.

It's not really borderline, FWIW. I also don't really care if osuka wants to call me an idiot.

[Bingle]

Again, treating the flipped scum as conftown for VCA is probably a better model.

I feel like that might be a bit more telling when we have more flips, but I don't think the traditional methods of VCA will be as applicable in this game regardless. Scum won't be as worried about associations with each other because if one of them flips both of them flip.

[Bingle]

What do you think of osuka, Umlaut?

[Bingle]

Pre Edit: Bingle, you don't remember the eod flash wagon attempt on me?

Actually, coming back to this: If the premise of this question is "I was a viable lim at EoD" then what are your thoughts on wagon composition?

[Bingle]

Bingle [3]: Firebringer, The Bulge, osuka,
sheepsaysmeep [2]: Umlaut
Firebringer [2]: Donempire, Black
Skygazer [2]:
Merlyn [1]: Invisibility
Meuh [1]: Bingle
Ausuka [1]: Doctor Drew
Donempire [1]: Merlyn
Drew: Sheep, Ausuka, Meuh, Rat, Umlaut

not voting [1]: Skygazer

Oh, hm. This is the endpoint for the Drew wagon when it was biggest, just before FB swung momentum back to black.

[Bingle]

Why is osuka town, rat?

[Bingle]

Umm, that was before my wagon happened.

I moved the votes, look at the bottom of the quoted vc.

[Bingle]

Hm. Do you think his arguments that I think any of the pushes against me are 'good' are in good faith?

[Bingle]

like if ur going to argue that u don't have a meta and ur games are too similar to have a tell. Then ur basically asking everyone to null read u imo

and then if ur arguing im also very good at scum.
I don't know why i shouldn't just vote park u

If there was no external evidence (results of what I've done, results of things that would be against my wishes, interactions I've had with other people or other people have had with me that make us unlikely partners) I would be a fine compromise lim, sure. It's why, generally speaking, I'm an excellent investigation target.

In this case, I don't think it's reasonable to think I shoot someone I'm comfortably scumreading or a lurker slot I have no read on when I should be more concerned about not killing a partner than anything else. Even if you argue that I was faking my scumread on meuh, and was absolutely convinced she was town (lmao) she would still be a subpar kill over most of the thread because I could reasonably continue pushing there and not look suspicious for it. You say that NKA is going to be useless here, but you just have to apply it backwards. Who would a scumplayer absolutely not want to kill?

[Bingle]

I believe I talked before about their early recklessness not likely to come from scum in this setup, and then they dumbtelled forgetting the setup by questioning why I would wait for two scum to flip, which... osuka strikes me as being too egotistical to fake a mistake like that, and obviously would be more conscious of it as scum.

I townread him early for the recklessness as well, iirc, but I should probably go back and look at that. I don't know I buy the egotistical = reluctant to dumbtell bit, tbh. I think being unwilling to play dumb is more a function of insecurity than ego, and I don't think osuka is insecure. I think he genuinely doesn't believe he's a moron, and the GTKAS link in his sig makes me think he's willing to lean into being seen a moron for his own benefit.

I just can't get over how fucking awful this repeated attempt to twist my words into endorsing scumreads on me is, and frankly if I'm somehow wrong here we're probably more likely to win with osuka dead.

[Bingle]

Ausuka, what are your thoughts of the world?

Clearly I was wrong about you being scum with Meuh, which makes me feel a lot better about you, actually.

[Bingle]

• Invisibility - I think Vizzy here is still very town. She's chaotic and sheepy, but ime Vizzy just be like that. There's not really a concern coming from her that she's going to be in danger, and I haven't noticed anyone trying to make Vizzy's position stronger, which I would expect of someone loverpaired to her. I don't see an agenda, and I don't see any worry about being scumread for her actions. I geuss most of it boils down to gut and tone, but I just don't believe Vizzy is scum here.
  
• Firebringer - Firebringer is pretty clearly town here, imo. He started with a NAI gimmick, but he dropped it as soon as he saw something he thought was worth pushing. His case on me was a bad one, but I maintain that it's not something that scumbringer brings to bear on specifically me. Like, he brought up Elections as part of it, where he watched scum me shut down literally every scumread on my partner LLD from D1 to great effect. I'm not a player who it's easy to get a strong town read on D1, and if FB scum here was pushing me I think he'd get cold feet on getting rid of someone who he knows would be an asset throughout the game if I was scum. I would have expected Firebringer to want to investigate me N1 and then push me D2 when he got confirmation I was town, or (if he realized that the best use of the cop was to vet nightkills) to quietly shoot me N2.
  
• Radical Rat - Rat was very willing to put a E-1 down on basically nothing, and I maintain that's very +town for them specifically. They absolutely would have gotten the nuance of being afraid of sacrificing resources and they were not at all worried about that. Add to that the bits and pieces of strong analysis they bring in from time to time like the osuka ego thing, even when I don't agree with them, and I'm pretty sure that Rat is actually trying to solve this game.
  
• Ausuka- A lot of my concern about Ausuka died with Meuh. It's possible that Ausuka was humoring the Meuh townread, but posts like 869 actually make me think she's genuine in her thought processes. If I'm wrong on a strong townread, it's this one, but I don't think I am.
  
  
• Donempire - meh.
  
• Merlyn - Merlyn feels reasonable overall, and when I interact with her I get all the town feels, but when I actually try to pin down the read I just... What has she really done? For as here as she seems to be, there's a general lack of specific things I can remember liking about her.
  
  
• sheepsaysmeep
  
• Doctor Drew - The only thing I can really say here is that Drew does feel weird with his treatment of me. It's very much a buddying feel, and while it's not impossible it comes from town I think this is a pretty good bet on scum.
  
  
• Umlaut - Umlaut was definitely where I expected scum to be regarding my wagon yesterday, and the transition from "Maybe Bingle is an okay info lim but I don't really want it" to "We absolutely need to lim Bingle for information" doesn't seem natural at all. Honestly, my biggest hesitance in calling Umlaut scum is that he doesn't feel anywhere near as town as he did in Coalition, but that might be due to coalition being full of lurksacks and shittunnels.
  
• osuka

[Bingle]

My main scumread hasn't really changed and I'm kind of just skimming though the Osuka/Bingle fight. I'll go back and look for things that have changed for me

I assume this means don? Sell me on why he's scum?

[Bingle]

My main scumread hasn't really changed and I'm kind of just skimming though the Osuka/Bingle fight. I'll go back and look for things that have changed for me

I assume this means don? Sell me on why he's scum?

Still interested in this, btw.

[Bingle]

Don, what do you make of fire pushing me specifically? Like, fire knows I can win scum games on my own if I’m on my game and he tunneled me over weak reasons when I was both likely to die from it and he had no real assurance I wasn’t scum. If he’s scum why would he take that risk?

[Bingle]

Also, fwiw there is a math advantage to trying to hide the ic for as long as possible because the ic not actually being in the lim pool applies before they out too, but I’d kinda been resigned to losing him when he sifted today.

[Bingle]

This is so scummy it's ridiculous. Aside from the unabashed rolefishing here are a few reasons ic revealing would suck,

ill rolefish all day my friend

Are u the IC?

If anyone is wondering i fucking had a huge feeling done was IC back here

10 points to griffindor

Why did you think that? It doesn't seem like an obvious soft to me (and also it makes no sense to soft IC).

don't know if ur playing dumb or not but when i suggested "hey ic should reveal" and there people discussing it, donempire the IC in hiding had the most negative reaction to it which was telling because it was a suggestion and he could disagree with the suggestion sure, but he did it in an obvious way that i think an IC in hiding would do.

Like he basically was reacting in a way of "NO IM NOT OUTING MYSELF AND YOUR SCUMMY FOR SUGGESTING SO"
that was my gut feeling for his response.

i want to point out too. I wasn't trying to do secret IC hunting, i just immediately thought that if IC revealed it could increase chances scum both go for him and they waste a night and it elimmed someone from elim pool. But whatever discussion is over and he revealed.

I can confirm that the post looked IC indicative, although I wasn't sure. The soft I was referring to was earlier today when Don asked everyone to make readslists saying he had a surprise for us. It was the least surprising surprise so far this game.

[Bingle]

Don, what do you make of fire pushing me specifically? Like, fire knows I can win scum games on my own if I’m on my game and he tunneled me over weak reasons when I was both likely to die from it and he had no real assurance I wasn’t scum. If he’s scum why would he take that risk?

Not at all leading? It’s asking for your take on why I tr fire given that you disagree.
You realize how leading this question is right?

[Bingle]

Uh… pretend that didn’t fuck up formatting wise

[Bingle]

Only if the premise is no one would lie.

[Bingle]

To make that clear: we don’t have a way to ‘prove someone would eliminate a player’ that doesn’t also eliminate the player.

[Bingle]

EV

73% town win, discounting IC influence, which makes it not just dividing 3 by 11.

[Bingle]

idk about you guys but I think we shouldn't lim Don

What if we lim don as a power move though? Just to prove how good we are?

[Bingle]

I mean, don and I literally just lost a game with a 100% town ev.

[Bingle]

Oh, yeah, looking at progressions is definitely a valuable tool here, but there's no mechanical way to leverage that into autowin, which is what FB wanted me to do.

[Bingle]

• Invisibility - I think Vizzy here is still very town. She's chaotic and sheepy, but ime Vizzy just be like that. There's not really a concern coming from her that she's going to be in danger, and I haven't noticed anyone trying to make Vizzy's position stronger, which I would expect of someone loverpaired to her. I don't see an agenda, and I don't see any worry about being scumread for her actions. I geuss most of it boils down to gut and tone, but I just don't believe Vizzy is scum here.
  
• Firebringer - Firebringer is pretty clearly town here, imo. He started with a NAI gimmick, but he dropped it as soon as he saw something he thought was worth pushing. His case on me was a bad one, but I maintain that it's not something that scumbringer brings to bear on specifically me. Like, he brought up Elections as part of it, where he watched scum me shut down literally every scumread on my partner LLD from D1 to great effect. I'm not a player who it's easy to get a strong town read on D1, and if FB scum here was pushing me I think he'd get cold feet on getting rid of someone who he knows would be an asset throughout the game if I was scum. I would have expected Firebringer to want to investigate me N1 and then push me D2 when he got confirmation I was town, or (if he realized that the best use of the cop was to vet nightkills) to quietly shoot me N2.
  
• Radical Rat - Rat was very willing to put a E-1 down on basically nothing, and I maintain that's very +town for them specifically. They absolutely would have gotten the nuance of being afraid of sacrificing resources and they were not at all worried about that. Add to that the bits and pieces of strong analysis they bring in from time to time like the osuka ego thing, even when I don't agree with them, and I'm pretty sure that Rat is actually trying to solve this game.
  
• Ausuka- A lot of my concern about Ausuka died with Meuh. It's possible that Ausuka was humoring the Meuh townread, but posts like 869 actually make me think she's genuine in her thought processes. If I'm wrong on a strong townread, it's this one, but I don't think I am.
  
  
• Donempire - meh.
  
• Merlyn - Merlyn feels reasonable overall, and when I interact with her I get all the town feels, but when I actually try to pin down the read I just... What has she really done? For as here as she seems to be, there's a general lack of specific things I can remember liking about her.
  
  
• sheepsaysmeep
  
• Doctor Drew - The only thing I can really say here is that Drew does feel weird with his treatment of me. It's very much a buddying feel, and while it's not impossible it comes from town I think this is a pretty good bet on scum.
  
  
• Umlaut - Umlaut was definitely where I expected scum to be regarding my wagon yesterday, and the transition from "Maybe Bingle is an okay info lim but I don't really want it" to "We absolutely need to lim Bingle for information" doesn't seem natural at all. Honestly, my biggest hesitance in calling Umlaut scum is that he doesn't feel anywhere near as town as he did in Coalition, but that might be due to coalition being full of lurksacks and shittunnels.
  
• osuka

This is still roughly where I'm at, don aside.

I'm trying to figure out why don and I disagree on FB, but I have 5 names that I think contain 1-2 scum for sure.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Ausuka

If Ausuka ends up being scum imma need you to wear a jingle bell rocks shirt. Jussayin.

[Bingle]

It's a meta read but i wouldn't call it stupid.

I mean... I've also explained why I think it's stupid, but that's not the point of the question. FB has to the best of my knowledge never caught me as scum and there are roughly 0 players who have ever been able to read me off of meta. (Mathblade claimed to have a a meta based scumtell on me, but that was years ago and he hasn't been in one of my scumgames since, so :shrug:) I take your point in that FB might have expected scum me to be able to defuse the wagon, though, that's definitely a reasonable assumption.

[Bingle]

Scum would gain to rush a wagon that they knew at least didn't have their team

Scum would have been rushing with <10 hours on the clock. Another flashwagon wasn't really super likely and if I had been scum who wasn't me or Drew I don't think I'd have been concerned about it at all. Basically everything after my vote was just confirming that ANY lim would go through. If Fire was scum with specifically me or Drew I could maybe see the momentum shift as scum motivated, but I think failing to eliminate anyone was more likely than any name other than three of us (me black Drew) going through. I'd put the odds of scum on wagon as about the same as the odds of scum in any other list of 6 people, discounting specific reads. And I tend to think the people off wagon are individually scummier than the people on wagon. If I got to pick 4 names to shoot here, it'd be osuka, Drew, sheep, Umlaut aorn.

[Bingle]

Could maybe shoot merlyn over Umlaut.

[Bingle]

My man isn't even a real worm.

[Bingle]

My man isn't even a real worm.

Wait what?

[Bingle]

I actually feel better about this the more “I’m willing but would prefer something else” posts we see. Like, that’s kind of the only stance scum can take about a partner that they can’t reasonably townread here.

[Bingle]

i feel like i can also rule out bingle as scum because i don't think he would go for meuh and more likely to shot at Donempire because i think he picked up on the same thing i did on Donempire giving himself away as IC day 1.

I mean i guess he could have copped him instead to confirm and shot at Meuh for being too townread or something. But seems a bit less likely and more likely wanted to push her? Ugh. Gonna stick to bingle town.

Fwiw, I saw the post, saw it as evidence of ic but not conclusive evidence and would definitely not have copped there. I would’ve copped you, rat or umlaut, because if town you’re great nks but I wouldn’t want to risk being wrong and killing a strong scum buddy. The cop is definitely a use on the next nk kind of thing.

[Bingle]

Oh derp, yeah why would scum!Firebringer IC hunt and then shoot anyone but Don last night. I guess FB pretty much clear then.

Devils advocate here because I don’t believe it’s the case, but it could have been because fire was trying to bait other scum to shoot the ic as a survival tactic and didn’t realize leaving the ic alive by both scum shooting there is actually a great for scum move N1.

I think given the brand of theory talk he had yesterday assuming fire would kill don as scum is pretty reasonable and if he is scum we can win regardless by hitting his partner even if he’s big braining here.

[Bingle]

do you actually think firebringer is scum or are you just having an osuka moment? osuka moments are when you get convinced of someone's alignment way too early in the game only to realize later it was probably wrong

Do you know what Devil's advocate means? I'm arguing a case for Fire scum that I don't really believe because it is at least plausible. I personally think Fire is town.

[Bingle]

I do not care about this game as much I do about being on a boat with beers rn

I read this as being on a boat with bears. Do not trust bears. They are wild animals and will fuck your day up.

In other news, I'm happy to give Merlyn a day or two to escape the large omnivores threatening her.

[Bingle]

I hope our next GeorgeBailey meme is the classic "bear with me" post

https://punpedia.org/bear-puns/

[Bingle]

1280, 1285, and 1382.

Society today.

[Bingle]

It would also be funny if meuh tried to get merlyn killed and merlyn killed her in retaliation lmao

wait I meant to say this too, I'm still pretty new but I think I know better than to off the main person casing me.

It’s actually a pretty solid play unless they’re complete ass at casing you. No one listens to dead townies.

[Bingle]

just like how the meuh/sky team did with black the other scum team also coordinated for one to vote on the wagon and one to vote outside it.

I don't think this is a thing, btw.

First of all, I don't think meuh and sky coordinated anything at EoD, I think sky was just legitimately not around. Second, I really don't think we know enough about what scum was thinking one way or the other to say there's scum on or off wagon. I think the end of the wagon is {people who were around when EoD happened} and I don't see any particular motivation in starting the black wagon unless that motivation was specifically (Save Drew) which... Maybe?

[Bingle]

It was obvious in hindsight the way they vote hopped until a lim happened.

This, actually, strikes me as really fake, now that I'm thinking about it. Like, meuh doesn't really stand out to me amongst the other people around EoD for votehopping. And I can definitely see "Well obviously Meuh was scum at EoD 1 for *shitreason*" as a thing scum would post to make it look less likely they're the one who shot Meuh.

VOTE: Drew

[Bingle]

I'm explicitly still okay with a merlyn lim, btw, and will totally jump ship to vote there if she isn't impressive now that arbitrary don't have to work day is over.

[Bingle]

Can someone tell me why this site keeps going down, 3rd time i was isoing someone and had to start again because the site went down for an hour

Mith made an announcement in the discord about the site's host having power outages, but they were supposedly solved. Dunno why it keeps happening.

[Bingle]

Bottom 3 i townread all of them to some extent. If there are no scum in the top 3, i'd be down to lim outside of that list, probably only sheep though. I think this 4 is a guaranteed solve, but don't underestimate my ability to throw certain victory, right bingle?

Somehow I doubt you've convinced Dats to confirm you as town as a scum player.

[Bingle]

I think i should expand on my drew townread since its not a popular one. He was one of the few slots pressuring meuh during the end of the day, and i couldn't see a post wherein he townread sky, going off that i doubt he's the one to make a meuh kill.

He was also really essily pushed throughout the day, with pretty much everyone voicing their suspicions on him at some point. Some might say that him not being wagoned despite this is proof that there was resistance, to which i would say that his wagon was just as possible as a black wagon, and in fact without fb i would wager drew would have been the lim yesterday. That tells me that he's solo in his endeavour.

I also liked his black vote compared to other votes since he did so simply so there would be a lim like i did. Also not to claim i'm a meta expert on him but this doesn't feel like scum drew to me.

I think I'm missing something. Could you explain why you think those points make him town?

[Bingle]

I assume you're asking about my third point since the first two should be self evident, theres not much more i can say besides what i said in my post you quoted

I agree that it's not as strong a point as the other two since scum!drew could be refraining from voting as to not kill scum, but i don't think that's whats happening here. But it's kind of a weak reasoning and i understand that. My first two points are why i'm confident in this read.

Not exclusively. The first point is a point that applies much better to me. I spent all of yesterday actively campaigning for a meuh lim and meuh was not particularly interested in my own lim. I have already mentioned why I think this makes me obvious town, but you don't seem to agree. Drew, by contrast, had a little bit of interest at the end of the day and meuh wanted him dead more than she did me iirc. (Note, meuh provably wouldn't know either of Drew or my alignments.) I'm interested in any specific posts you might have seen that you think would make Drew less likely to shoot meuh than I would be.

I also think you're reading way too much into wagon reluctance given that this is a 2 person scumteam in 15 people, and wanted to know if you had more weight behind that than just the obvious, but my guess is just that we don't see eye to eye on how much influence scum would have/how much effort scum would put into wagon manipulation here.

[Bingle]

Similarly, Ausuka doesn't stand to benefit from killing townMeuh, because Meuh was defending Ausuka hard. Scum doesn't generally fancy shooting their own major supporters. Scumsuka wouldn't want to kill scumMeuh or townMeuh, so Scumsuka likely doesn't exist.

What do you think of this argument, Dong?

[Bingle]

VOTE: Osuka

I support you in spirit, but doubt your ability to actually get this wagon off the ground.

[Bingle]

i gotta ask though - why the votes on me? i don't understand that

Did you read the last page?

[Bingle]

I did the osuka iso and it's like... Idk osuka is hard to read, but i think that while i stand by the idea his general style here is the same as in previous games, there is a bit of a hollowness to his reads I guess? It's not a super strong thing, but I feel like he makes sure to have One Big Tunnel - towel slot and then bingle for most of the game - and then the rest of his reads are like ???. Even with the bingle read, it's like... Even as scum I get the sense osuka believes *some* of what he's saying, but I think he's too happy to escalate the shitfight over weird things. Like, when bingle says he thinks his wagon is mostly town, osuka says something like "this is basically just a scumclaim, to say everyone on your wagon is town and has good reasons and we're all skipping in a field of daisies" and bingle is like "I think they have bad reasons" and osuka is then just like "well if they're town it's not bad reasons to them, can you even fucking read bingle jesus fucking christ" and it's just ??? and it kind of makes me feel like he's cranking up the aggro to 100 on purpose to make himself seem aggressive and possibly to satisfy the watchful eyes of doctor drew

I do also feel like, with town osuka, you probably have the same sense of aggressiveness and I don't expect to agree with everything he says but like... I kind expect townsuka to be more messy and like fight more with different people and whatever. This can partially be explained by osuka just not being that engaged compared to previous games but shrug I'm not totally confident in any read here. All the fire is aimed at bingle and then he just sheeps donempire for ??? reasons which obviously like, call it omgus and it kind of is omgus but whatever I don't care I don't like it. I think as scum here you are going to be in a very tough spot getting like, 5 consecutive miselims or whatever, and it would probably be a lot easier if you can get people to sheep donempire and lim 3 townies for wagonomics or something.

VOTE: osuka ok

Fwiw something that is like influencing my read on osuka is, like, usually part of what makes mafia such a difficult game is that scum can just act like their town selves by voting anything they would normally consider scum indicative. I do not think mafia can do that so easily in this game because they risk actually hitting scum which is kind of a catastrophic event. Stuff that seems forced and unnatural in a way I don't like is... honestly not something I consider a reliable scumtell most of the time, because sometimes townies do things I don't get, but I feel like in this specific game scum have incentives to make pushes they wouldn't believe as town and that changes the game a lot. Like if osuka just thought the wagon on bingle was really stupid and bingle was town, he could decide then to just tunnel bingle

[Bingle]

Also, as promised.

VOTE: osuka

[Bingle]

Oh hey. That’s e-1.

[Bingle]

You’d think putting him at E-1 with less than 24 hours to deadline would be a better indicator.

Sorry don, but I think both ausuka and fb are town. I understand why you disagree with me on both, to an extent, but I don’t find your argument convincing. I don’t think anything osuka has done today invalidates my reasons for voting him yesterday. Given the dwindling number of people I think might be scum, I’m not inclined to back off of this with the time we have left today. If I’m wrong I’m wrong, but I have to vote where I think the red flips live.

[Bingle]

The first paragraph was a response to fire and don talking about me osuka not being S/S btw. Not sure where the quotes went.

[Bingle]

anyways i will probably hammer in the next 5 hours

I don’t think dons gonna get 4 more votes in 5 hours, sheep.

[Bingle]

So, I’m pretty sure Rat and osuka aren’t S/S. I don’t think they mutually townread each other if they are.

[Bingle]

Oh damn. Let me try again.

I don’t think dons gonna get 4 more votes in 5 hours.
VOTE: donempire

[Bingle]

Where’s joke explain not when you need vonflare?

[Bingle]

I’m not opposed to a free elim, he’s firmly PoE for me. I would like to get more solid engagements from the less active members of my PoE before we end day though (sheep and Merlyn) as well to sanity check that I’m not just wrong on my towncore.

[Bingle]

Drew, not free. My phone tryna frame me up in here.

[Bingle]

I am gonna miss donempire

No, you definitely hit. The night kill went through.

[Bingle]

this day phase is kinda rough for me lmao im basically semi vla

im sorry I know it's bad timing

Do you think scum is in or out of the PoE at least? Like, are you confident we’re on the right track overall?

[Bingle]

There are currently 28 potential pairs from any individual town perspective. (9 living, 8 potential first scum so it’s 8C2 as the function; which is the trivial 7+6+5+4+3+2+1). Division of labor I’d want at least three points of inspection, which assuming all players help is ~8 pair evaluations per person.

[Bingle]

Oh, more than 8. I made the mistake of assuming the pairings would be static across players, so it’s actually 40 pairs, 120 data points and 13 pairs per person.

[Bingle]

I goofed again. 28+8 doesn’t equal 40, it’s 36. 12 pairs per person.

[Bingle]

Assuming I’m alive and not swamped tomorrow I’ll do the full 25.

[Bingle]

Full 21. Dammit, I should probably give up on math for the day.

[Bingle]

I actually kind of hate the teams I was assigned but who am I to argue with the Algorithm

Speaking as the Bingle who does this semi regularly it is actually less work to do the full team list for the player above and below you and that gives us a wider spread of data. You’re examining more teams, but you get very familiar with two isos which makes the process faster as a whole.

[Bingle]

Page get

[Bingle]

A bit more seriously: it is a good idea,some sleuthing actually based in fact, and if the only pushback is laziness, I'd still rather do it. I don't really get how it's a ton of work- it's reading 12 convos.

Done properly it’s a bit more. You want to look at voting records, the pressure level on the players while they were having conversations, etc. my usual modus operandi when doing this is read thread, read the scummiest iso, read joint iso of scummiest and first, etc. it also helps against bias to do it that way since your weakest scumreads will have the strongest recency bias.

[Bingle]

I theoretically could do the thing and do this tonight, but I found out my schedule for the near future is 5 tens a week and then stayed two hours after I was supposed to clock out. Also the weather is in the triple digits. I'm gonna play some Viva Pinata and chill, deal with it nerds.

[Bingle]

I can't decide whether you should live or die

Game advancing content.

[Bingle]

Invisibility
Firebringer
Ausuka
Radical Rat
sheepsaysmeep
Doctor Drew
Merlyn
Umlaut

Alright, I'm doing the thing. RR guilted me out over having access to AC.

Umlaut Pairs:

Vïzzy

Highly Implausible: I don't think 137 is a Umlaut/Vizzy team. If Merlyn read is fabricated, it's an awkward thing to be chainsawing this early. It's notable that Vizzy and Umlaut never really interact, even when discussing tangential things. They were expressing opposite opinions on the me/osuka dynamic concurrently, but didn't even talk to each other about why they had pretty much opposite reads of the situation. Could be intentional as a distancing tool, especially if Umlaut expected :this: from me, but probably not. This is just a strange way to treat your scumbuddy, and I don't think the 5D chess move of just hard ignoring your partner because only awkward newbscum would do that comes from Vizzy. 1047 is also pretty hard evidence that Umlaut isn't scum with Vizzy. Umlaut is setting up a lim pool of four people including Vizzy if I flip town, and I get the feeling Umlaut's townread on me here is genuine. It's an awkward thing to put your partner in a very shallow lim pool for functionally no reason. 1293 in the wake of a spur of activity from Umlaut that is definitely designed to generate towncred if scum is also just a super awkward way to get in the way of your partner. Additionally, there is a marked difference in the way these two interact between D1 and D2 which suggests to me that one party learned something about the other. The only thing that could have been learned was that the other was town.

GeorgeBaïley:

Unlikely- Umlaut ignoring FB and FB ignoring Umlaut is definitely something I would expect of them. Both would be reasonably sure the other would be able to cope with a light pressure and as such they wouldn't have to song and dance very hard. Taking up contradictory stances about me isn't outside of their wheelhouse either. I still don't think it particularly likely that Um tries to limit the lim pool to a group that contains his buddy, so that's a point in favor of dismissing this pair. 618 and 643 are like the same post (obviously not, but if you look at them you should pick up what I'm putting down) and scum doesn't usually borrow content from their buddy like that. They're usually pretty careful to make points that are legally distinct from their buddy. It's also a weird tack for a team to take for one of them to push me D1 and just kinda drop it D2 and the other to weak defend me D1 and turn it into a policy lim push D2. Like... It's just awkward. If Umlaut is scum, FB is probably a vote that was relied on for pushing through my lim on D2 easily and FB didn't have to not provide it.

Aüsuka

:nuh-uh.gif: 230 is kinda partnery here, actually. Umlaut is undermining Ausuka's push while still making AusukaIsTown noises. 407 could be a distancing shitpush, but I'm more inclined to believe it was an attempt to pocket me if it came from scum, particularly since there was actual follow through. Obligatory "Does Umlaut really put a group of 4 on the chopping block if one of those heads is his own?" callout. The page 38 back and forth doesn't feel partnery at all. Like... It's unnecessary and boring and pointless and I think usually theater has some kind of point behind it. Ausuka not being on me D2 when she could've been is another antipartner bit here, just like it was for Furbrunger earlier. 1280 takes it a step farther by undermining Umlaut's narrative. 1345 is very antipartner. I feel very confident that this is not an S/S.

Rät

The approaches to the me wagon here are complimentary af, but they never actually agree with the reasons the other gives to townread me. I could easily see this as a team that didn't want me gone in the case that I was scum, and I don't think either Rat or Umlaut is confident in their ability to pick out my scumgame in a lineup. 471 is like a textbook buddy read. "Hey, person is v town, but look at how I'm not townreading them b/c I'm PaRAnoID" is a very safe tack to take if you know the person you're potentially alienating by withholding the townread is gonna have your back. It also helps to build a "Player is town" feeling that doesn't necessarily trace back to you easily. And then they're back to talking around wagons. The E-2 on Umlaut in 1350 is hesitance and I should probably look deeper into whether that was a legitimate risk or a reasonable bus, but I'm already starting to burn out. I do see that it stopped fairly quickly.

Shïp
Dr:
Merlïn

I'll pick this up at Ratlout part 2 when I get less tired of doing this.

[Bingle]

No one wished me to get better

I hope you get worse, filthy dogbeast.

[Bingle]

Wow datisi is lax on everyone else but for me he has the prod timer ready on hours, minutes and seconds

The key is to make your prod dodges like four lines long so they don't bother reading it and thus don't realize there's no game content there.

I absolutely have never done this. I would not, could not, with a bear.

[Bingle]

I may just be drunk enough tonight to do this damn thing.

Party Hands?

[Bingle]

Invisibility
Firebringer
Ausuka
Radical Rat
sheepsaysmeep
Doctor Drew
Merlyn
Umlaut


Umlaut Pairs:

Rät

Likely. The approaches to the me wagon here are complimentary af, but they never actually agree with the reasons the other gives to townread me. I could easily see this as a team that didn't want me gone in the case that I was scum, and I don't think either Rat or Umlaut is confident in their ability to pick out my scumgame in a lineup. 471 is like a textbook buddy read. "Hey, person is v town, but look at how I'm not townreading them b/c I'm PaRAnoID" is a very safe tack to take if you know the person you're potentially alienating by withholding the townread is gonna have your back. It also helps to build a "Player is town" feeling that doesn't necessarily trace back to you easily. And then they're back to talking around wagons. The E-2 on Umlaut in 1350 is hesitance and I should probably look deeper into whether that was a legitimate risk or a reasonable bus, but I'm already starting to burn out. I do see that it stopped fairly quickly.
Addendum: It's bizarre how well these two seem to be coordinating when paired with the sheer number of times they've complained about how they usually work better together. It kinda feels fake.

Shïp

Hot take, I kinda like this as a scumship. Umlaut and Cook were a little awkward. Umlaut outright admitting he wanted to vote Cook and townreading Rat has all the same weird vibes for this pair. Could easily see that as not wanting to interact with an objectively scummy partner as much as I can see it as an attempt to incept the townread. Cook not weighing in on the almost defense isn't damning, but it's definitely not a good look. 407 is massive scumpoints for the team as well, given that not only does the "They ain't done shit" argument apply more to Cook than Ausuka, but it was literally a couple posts after an empty "I ain't done shit" post by Cook. Umlaut making a bunch of noise right after Cook doesn't do anything is also NAGL (TM). Voting Cook right before the replace out (Literally after the prod but before the replace.) is not really a danger when there are other distractions. Umlaut did push the sheep, but not very hard. I don't really get the vibe that he honestly wants to engage in the sheep tipping, and even though sheep was the second biggest wagon I don't think he was in a lot of danger. Also, sheep just kinda... Ignored it? Despite it being the definition of a shitpush? While defending himself from Rat? Eh. That interaction is just weird. 1123 is definite "I'M NOT A SHEP PARDNER" vibes, and paired with Umlaut trying to trigger partner analysis I think he as scum would think that he looks unpartnered with his partner, which in turn makes me think this is a fine option for an Umlaut partner. Their interactions today also seem p theatery.

Dr:
Merlïn

And... I'm gonna preemptively

VOTE: Umlaut

cause I'm legitimately not getting through this at this rate, and I at least want to be voting my individually strongest scum read.

[Bingle]

Do the thing. Do the thing.

[Bingle]

The whole point is to ignore whether you think the individuals are scum. Ideally this tactic finds someone who can only be scum with one other person and removes them from the lim pool, regardless of the fact that they’re NotMafia.

[Bingle]

Dr:

Not Likely. Too much scotch. Umlaut jumping on the towwl early wagon didn't feel like S/S. Generally, scum wants to have a more developed hop on for their buddy's wagons than what Umlaut had to offer. Kind of a weird thing, but the scotch pocket thing is actually massively anti partner signals. Generally, this kind of inane banter takes place in the scumthread if there is a scumthread they can play around in. The fact that it's public means they probably don't have another means of communication. It's potentially viable that this was done purposefully, but I very much doubt that's the case. Especially because neither Drew or Umlaut are doing the scotch pocket bit in lieu of real content or in a particularly performative way. It's a thing that I'm personally hyper aware of (I think I told Ali to have eir nonsense convos in the main thread instead of the scum thread in Election to take advantage of it) but it tends to just not be a thing people consider doing. Their interactions with my wagon are also at loggerheads. They're both 'defending' me, but with vastly different intentions. Umlaut if scum is looking to make the people voting me look bad. Drewscum is intending to make the me like him/get towncred for himself. I don't think both halves of a team do such parallel but markedly different defenses of the same slot.

I feel fairly strongly that 668 and 669 are not partners for example. Umlaut comes in with a weak ass defense on me and Drew cuts it off at the knees to make himself look good. Also, Drew: Bingle is always the center of everything. This is a Bingle-centric universe, and you're going to have to learn to deal with that.

Merlïn

This looks partnery in a way that makes it not partners.
418 looks vaguely partnery, but I'm not sure that I buy that Umlaut is that... bad at optics. Like, it's a softball question set up to let Merlyn look better when she was struggling, but it's also like... So obvious that it's going to make Merlyn look better that I just don't know if Umlaut wants that association. Maybe if Merlyn was really struggling, but she wasn't really under a lot of pressure (I think I was her major detractor and even then I wasn't really putting a lot of pressure there compared to Meuh?) 1255 is another looks like potential partner post that maybe just isn't because of it. "Partner is scummy, but I want this other option first" is generally a pretty safe place to be, but less so when you're literally tied together by the lover mechanic. Umlaut's posting at Don being reluctant about Merlyn being at E-1 doesn't strike me as S/S either. Like, I think S/S Merlaut just takes the W of not having to be at E-1 there and unvotes while setting up a pivot, even if that was a distancing attempt gone wrong. The interaction around gamestate analysis suggestion from Umlaut and Merlyn agreeing but not advancing it also seem not S/S.

[Bingle]

Do you perceive there as being a difference between your version of this and the one you accuse Umlaut of? If so, what is that difference?

No, not at all. It's not that having nuanced reads like that is inherently scummy, it's that as scum having a nuanced read like that is something you specifically want to do with a partner. The analysis here isn't whether Umlaut is scum or you are scum, but specifically whether it makes sense for you to be scum together. I don't think Umlaut or you are scum for having a read of "Rat is towny but maybe I'm wrong" but if Umlaut flipped and we had to continue the game it WOULD make me reconsider how town I thought you were.

This method of analysis is for shit for actually finding scum. It's all about removing people from the lim pool.

[Bingle]

reminding everyone of the following rule in my ruleset. the number of prods each player has received is visible in the thread OP.

~ if i have to prod you for the fourth time, i will automatically start searching for a replacement.

I'd like to request Black and Meuh be prodded. Neither has posted in more than 36 hours, and that way I'll be the only unprodded slot.