Open 901 - Normal Idea Mafia Redux - Postgame

[Jake The Wolfie]

What is up, my zebedee toilets?

[I'll read up on this game later, pls be gentle.]

[Jake The Wolfie]

What is up, my zebedee toilets?

[I'll read up on this game later, pls be gentle.]

Caught up on the first 3 pages and my

god

. All I'll say, relevant to this game, is that Dragon's slot looks bad.

I dislike #41 from Argonaughts. It feels strange to me.
Not_Mafia has not changed a damn bit since I was banned from the site. I do like the playful antagonism against Skygazer, along with their response to it.

Current standings:

Not_Mafia +
Skygazer +
Argonaughts -
Dragons -

[Jake The Wolfie]

why so many questions so early Jackson

To throw my, rather boring and bland, baseball cap into Mucho's ring;

This question, on it's own, is NAI. It could be a wolf trying their hand at shading Jackson, or it could be a good-faithed question to account for an abundance of activity.

I think the followup is where the real money is at, and the followup reads like a bit of backpedalling and flustering.

Lucca -

[Jake The Wolfie]

I've just gotten to the end of page 7 and I'm tempted to start a running tally of how many of Jackson's posts are just quoting someone and asking a question.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Finished the backread.

I agree with Argonaughts that Jackson has written over half of the words in this thread, and would further propose that they have

caused

over 2/3rds of the words in this thread, including the words you are reading in this post.

41 was a response to sky's confusion to what nm said.
i'm not sure why u find it strange.
~o

I found it a bit socially unaware, that you didn't understand what was actually happening in the thread but you still wanted to add

something.

I'll take your word for now that it was a good-faithed response, but you're on my radar now.

Black

's posts kinda just washed right through me. Even on a re-read, nothing really stuck to me. I'll throw a wolftag on them for now.

In total:

Not_Mafia +
Skygazer +
Argonaughts ~
Black -
Dragons -

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]
In total:

Not_Mafia +
Skygazer +
Argonaughts ~
Black -
Lucca -
Dragons -

My editor has informed me that Lucca does, in fact, exist.

[Jake The Wolfie]

1.05

Votecount 1.05

[...]
Mucho Man Randy Passion (1): Black, JacksonVirgo
[...]

(Just wanted to point this out to the mod.)

VOTE: Black
cmon.. do something..

Thanks, fixed.

- Alianna

[Jake The Wolfie]

I just noticed a mistake that seems to have affected a few VCs, recounting now.

sircakez is listed twice in the last one.

the recount is not faring well it seems

[Jake The Wolfie]

UNVOTE:

But what if.. [Camera pans over to window]
You were to vote Black and disguise it as your own bidding?

[Jake The Wolfie]

@Mucho Lassy

What are your thoughts on Black? What about the fellows who go by the name of Argonaughts?

[Jake The Wolfie]

@Mucho Lassy

What are your thoughts on Black? What about the fellows who go by the name of Argonaughts?

Oh a Wolf? Hopefully in name only

But oh dear, only two fellows and one sassy lady though are aboard this ship.......I will also send the the nearest Sophist to assist you with spelling, it will be my pleasure to make sure your intellect is in tip top shape :)

Also, is there an issue with Black? Despite her name I feel like her soul shines like the purest light

I don't mean to make light as well, but I fear Dionysus has given our dear mod a nectar of the vine or two

-Asclepius

Indeed, it has been a long time since I have been humorously accused of being a wolf in wolf's clothing.

Ah, my mistake. If you prefer, I will instead refer to you lot as Argon, the noble gas Argon.

I've posted it before (and this is for Black as well) but for my first backread through, Black just sorta faded into obscurity. Even after I ran an ISO on them, there was quite a lack of substance despite the moderate post count; Hence my comment "cmon.. do something.."

[Jake The Wolfie]

1.05

Votecount 1.05

[...]
Mucho Man Randy Passion (1): Black, JacksonVirgo
[...]

(Just wanted to point this out to the mod.)

VOTE: Black
cmon.. do something..

Thanks, fixed.

- Alianna

What would you like me to do? I have a couple of minor reads already but I'm mostly vibing for now. I tend to be busy on the weekends

I know that it's a very frustrating answer to recieve, but I would like you to do more substansive things.

Hm, to give you a direction to head in, I have yet to sink my teeth into Mucho Madam's posts. Could you try your hand at that?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Anyone have a really strong read so far?

I could go for a Lucca axe if they never come back to the thread.

[Jake The Wolfie]

@Mucho Lassy

What are your thoughts on Black? What about the fellows who go by the name of Argonaughts?

Black has tiny mafia energy, but has great POTENTIAL when she is DOMINANT town. The BOAT RIDERS are masked wrestlers :thinking:

I'm unsure of them. The MUCHO MAN may need to read again. I recall liking how the Argonaters VOTE, but there are many wrestlers on board, so they make many VOTES. Some are more likeable that OTHERS, as I recall.

This is enlightening, thank you.

I would have to wait on Black to provide more stuff to look through, I don't think there's enough there.

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]
Jupiter JacksonVirgo the Victory Machine and The Clappening's BROTHER The SAVIOR of DRAGONKIND are DOMINANT town.
[...]

You seem to have wrapped your head around Clapper's posts...

UUUGGGHHHHH

, fine I'll go read his posts. [A bit of suffering later..]

I guess I can retract my scumread on Dragon. I'm doing this for you, Mucho Madam.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Roden!

You seem to be the one most against Argon. Would you like to expand on why you scumread them?

Pre-Edit: Ah, that's understandable. I'm tempted to say that this is adjacent to a policy axe, but I do agree that Argon should help push the game forward.

[Jake The Wolfie]

hey did you know that if you multiply this page's number by 23 you get this posts' number haha anyway where is Invisibility, Shaddowez, Lucca, and Dragons at?

[Jake The Wolfie]

:O my number facts worked

Hello Hello Lucca! I'll let you catch up to the thread, then we can discuss with one another.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Some catch-up thoughts

Spoiler:

Feel good about HT and Black so far.

Null on JV. @204 is kinda concerning for me. It's a non-commitable accusation and the 'Am I looking too deeply?" is a sudden change in tone from a player that seems incredibly confident. I like the Macho Man vote though.

First thing that pinged me on my read-through is Shaddow coming back to rephrase a previous post after 20 minutes. @137 then @138. Kinda gives me the feel he's concerned about other people's reactions to his posts.

Reading the thread I had the same opinion as post @179 so that's enough to put HT at my townpile so far
Also liked Black for @194 because of the longest post bit

Disliked STD entrance. More of a vibe read than anything substancial, but it seems he's trying to look 'detached cool townie' if that makes sense.

And that's it. Something about the tone on @243 by Argonauts is also strange.

hello jake, let's talk

VOTE: Shaddowez
tell me: would scum do that?

If by that, you mean your vote on Shaddowez, I would have to say it's likely for either alignment to vote thusly, each for their own reasons. Personally, if I wasn't voting Black, I would join the Shadez wagon.

If by that you instead mean the body of your post within the spoiler...

Spoiler:

I agree that HT is a townlean [They seem nice and agreeable.]

As stated before, I would disagree that Black is towny here. She hasn't really done much from what I've seen, though her recent musings do bring forth hope.

Jackson.. I generally am giving them the greenlight here, but I should admit that's mainly motivated by giving you the redlight. [Add that to the list of things I haven't read yet..]

You liked the vote on Mucho? Why?

I guess that's one way to read Shades there? It reads to me more like he's trying to mold and bend a decent question out of an otherwise throwaway line.

That's a strange take from that post from Black. I can't wrap my head around it.

Dragons is.. present.. ish. They would be on my "to pressure" list for sure.

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]
I guess that's one way to read Shadez there?
[...]

Shadez deservez hiz Brand-Icon tailing Z after hiz name.

[Jake The Wolfie]

the hello jake was a p-edit mostly

Fair enough.

Really though, burning question: Why did you like Jackson's vote on Mucho given the full context of that post?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Not burning enough, I'm getting sleepy.

If the game somehow fucken collapses overnight, I'd say that a ~reasonable group of town would be Tao, Stargazer, and Mucho.

Goodnightvale

[pre-edit: i acknowledge your post lucca and will read it in full when i wake up]

[Jake The Wolfie]

About Black, I think her getting to that conclusion is a towny-progression. Something like:

1) hmm, Hu Tao posts feels bigger than normal
2) let me check her ISO on previous games
3) oh, it is the biggest post since "x game"
4) I wonder what does that mean?

if Black was scum, I think she would've used that information in a more definite way. It's a good argument, scum would use that to get somewhere, at least in my view.
[...]

I guess I follow. It reads more like a neat observation to me, but I can see your perspective.

[...]

liked the vote on Macho Man because he looks like a very analytical player and I can see how town!JV would get a little annoyed and paranoid by the fast confident read + the fluff as it seems like easy content.

I can see someone who is assumedly bored and is probably re-reading the game to get more conclusions going back, looking at Macho's read and going: "wow, this is bullshit for how early it is". So I think the vote makes sense. At least I can see how he would come to this conclusion if he was town. If he was scum, I don't see the benefit

Huh. This is a little strange interpretation. I thought that post was rather straightforwardly an attack on Mucho for her thoughts on Jackson and how they didn't line up with what they were seeing.

In this framing, Jackson's post could come from other alignment, but from what you're telling me about their play they would be more likely to be town. Frustrated town at that.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Hm. I think Black is ~fine for now.

VOTE: Shaddowez

Shadez! You haven't been around here a lot. Care to try your hand at this beautiful, elegant game?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Invisibility is being prodded.

no u see... hees postt...

is invisible

[Jesus Christ, Jake.]

[Jake The Wolfie]

Not_Mafia, did you post something? I couldn't see it.

[Jake The Wolfie]

i'm reading up rn.
~o

Don't make an Odyssey out of it

[Jake The Wolfie]

<pain>

I'm clueless as to why there's a wagon on me right now.

I realized I forgot to post my weekend V/LA

and

there is no school or work tomorrow, so I'll be back Tuesday

</pain>

Just so you're aware, you may not be alive by tuesday.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Mucho Man Randy Passion has requested replacement.

Put another way...

Our World-Class Champion, Randy Passion, is stepping out of the ring.

Godspeed.

[Consider this my "reading up now" post]

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jackson.. I generally am giving them the greenlight here, but I should admit that's mainly motivated by giving you the redlight. [Add that to the list of things I haven't read yet..]

What do I have to do with lucca?

So, I have this pet theory, and it revolves around something that Lucca said earlier in the day:

why so many questions so early Jackson

Boiling it down, if Lucca was a wolf here then this post would very easily serve as an attempt at shading you.
While it isn't definitive [I'd still be down to axe Lucca the most out of everyone] it feels like something to keep in mind when reading Lucca's posts.

[Jake The Wolfie]

i'm busy today.
will post later, sorry.
~o

You made an Odyssey out of it, didn't you?

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]
Jake, I love your sense of humor......I want to say you are posting just to post, but I also am not too familiar with your style(and I enjoy a good shit poster so who am I to judge).
[...]
-Asclepius

If you were trying to read me based off of previous performance, you would have had my head. This game is more atypical as I try playing Mafia again.

I am (mostly) posting just to post, as the group of people I want to talk with happen to be the same group of people who aren't here to talk. To ramble a bit; I'm waiting on some of the low-posters to pick up the slack and have some more thread presence. While I ~could~ try conversing with the high presence peeps, they already have a pretty firm grip on the game and have probably already answered any questions I would have in their posts.

I forgot just how

slooooooooow

this site's games can be.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I think I still want not_mafia today. He is different from when he was town last time I played with him,. Definitely more reads. and then when I said it, he said 316

Not_Mafia is ~fine? I think we should wait until Day 3 or so until we decide to let the jester win. Aside from that, we have some better alternatives to the cow [Lucca, Shadez, maybe even Dragon if I'm feeling spicy]

[Jake The Wolfie]

Skygazer is being prodded.

Aauuh-
A prod of Skygazer?

At this time of Year,
At this time of

Day,

In this part of the Country,

Localized

entirely within this thread?

[Jake The Wolfie]

I forgot just how slooooooooow this site's games can be.

You and me both, I tend to re-read the entire day if nothing is happening cuz I like wanna do

something

,

anything

But I don't really wanna filler-post either. Aagh

[Jake The Wolfie]

Ah fuck just realised macho won't respond to me. They've been neutral hunting, which is a scum tell

Was she neut hunting? She mentioned it a few times, but it wasn't like, her passion project.

[Jake The Wolfie]

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Reasonable readlist. Not_Mafia is clearly the one and only Serial Killer

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]

Why did I go from the bottom of your list to the top?

He's just trolling now

How so?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Erm.

I hate th be the one to break this to you, but Not_Mafia is currently engaging with this new and revolutionary form of communication known in part as comedy.

Less disresepctfully, This is just how Not_Mafia is

[Jake The Wolfie]

Erm.

I hate th be the one to break this to you, but Not_Mafia is currently engaging with this new and revolutionary form of communication known in part as comedy.

Less disresepctfully, This is just how Not_Mafia is

This was rude and unprecedented. I'm sorry Tao. Let me rephrase this,

Not_Mafia is to Mafia what the Fosbury Flop is to high-jumping. Strange and Unexpected, but surprisingly useful.

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]

<pain>

I'm clueless as to why there's a wagon on me right now.

I realized I forgot to post my weekend V/LA

and

there is no school or work tomorrow, so I'll be back Tuesday

</pain>

Just so you're aware, you may not be alive by tuesday.

This didn't happen, but what would you have made of it if it did?

If you flipped

T

own

: I would be reading deeper into the low-posters and scumreads I have that are on your wagon. It would be the catalyst in my mind to find Lucca/Black/Dragons as wolves and would push them harder than last time [Exception of Dragon, haven't pushed them.] I'd also look a tad more critically at Not_Mafia.

If you flipped

W

olf

: Your wagon wouldn't have been pure. With the amount of ease that an early axe would've had, scum would've definitely been on your wagon to try and gain towncred.

Who

they would have been, I'd have to say the earlier joiners of the wagon (Argon in particular.) [Yes, I am aware that this is yet another way to say "Lucca & Black lol" but I wouldn't be scumreading them as hard.]

If you flipped

N

eutral

: I might have broken at this point. I already have a pet theory on who the SK is, but if you had flipped SK I would probably clear the early joiners and suspected the late arrivals.

[Jake The Wolfie]

more later maybe

For your awareness:

You are going to be my main push tommorrow should more not happen between now and then.

[Jake The Wolfie]

more later maybe

For your awareness:

You are going to be my main push tommorrow should more not happen between now and then.

Why std?

-Asclepius

Generally, I'm pushing people who have low game activity and already have some momentum their way. Specifically, Dragon's posts have both lacked relevancy and lacked luster.

[...]

Why not push him now? What did you think of shaddow's catch-up?

While I would love to push him now, I don't think there's enough momentum that way. Though, I suppose I'll need to be the change I wish tosee in the thread.

Shadez catch-up was alright(?) but it didn't really inspire confidence in me that they were town. I can do a deeper breakdown if prompted.


Speaking of being prompted...
VOTE: Save The Dragons

[Jake The Wolfie]

Was she neut hunting? She mentioned it a few times, but it wasn't like, her passion project.

Who would make it super obvious? It's a common scum tell, her focus was finding the SK.

we really should be DOMINATING the third party REFEREE today

Eh, I'm still a little unconvinced that she was Neut Hunting, although I will admit this does make me question her towncred now.

[Jake The Wolfie]

[A block of quotes leading up to this point]

Is there a reason you're being rude? Did I hit a nerve? Are you the SK?

-Atalanta

Yeah I'm the SK, super kool

Lmao, Lmao, rollin' n lollin'

If Jackson wasn't in my townpool before, they certainly are now.
Argon can also have some towncred, as a treat.

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]

While I would love to push him now, I don't think there's enough momentum that way. Though, I suppose I'll need to be the change I wish tosee in the thread.

Shadez catch-up was alright(?) but it didn't really inspire confidence in me that they were town. I can do a deeper breakdown if prompted.


Speaking of being prompted...
VOTE: Save The Dragons

With all that you said on your page 16, shouldn't you be voting me or Black?

I don't think you can get STD off today and I don't like that you voted for him after being prompted by someone

where's the super confident town player Jake

Yeah, I probably should be pushing either of you, especially because there's more votes on either wagon. Regardless, I am going to follow my own lead and throw my vote onto Dragons to induce further support [Until the day draws near to a close.]

Your lack of confidence in both my endeavor and my ability shalln't deter me.

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]

The rest of this is on a traditional

Spoiler catch-up time

!

....snipped because n/a.......

@319. ehhhhhhhhhhh this is not a good reaction to the wagon

....snipped because n/a.......

It was literally a 3 second post to prodge and let everyone know I was V/LA. The pagetop was a VC, which was the only reason I even referenced a wagon

[...]

This response feels bad, like Shadez is trying to save face for a wolfy thing they did.

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]
because apparently my entire worldview revolves around N_M right now I also gotta say that [sic]
[...]

What is your worldview, Invisibility?

[Jake The Wolfie]

I like to think my vote on Dragon put a little pressure on them. I still want to see more from them, though.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Shadez catch-up was alright(?) but it didn't really inspire confidence in me that they were town. I can do a deeper breakdown if prompted.

Please do - if you don't feel convinced I'm town, do you think I'm scum?

Oh yeah, this.

I don't have time right now to do this, but I'll get to it later.

I don't know whether I think you're town or scum. I'd say that you are still fishy, Shadez.

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]
because apparently my entire worldview revolves around N_M right now I also gotta say that [sic]
[...]

What is your worldview, Invisibility?

I was just joking that my post mentioned N_M a lot lol. Unless this is a more general question them I'm unsure what exactly you're asking

Oh I thought you were serious about that lol.

Well, since I've got your attention I would like your worldview.

[Jake The Wolfie]

i think cakez/jv/hu tao are all townie

Why am I town?

Presumably, there is neither a comprehensive list of players that your are aligned with, nor is there an unlimited ability to kill players at your disposal listed in your role PM.

[This is a fluff post while I decide what to do next.]

[Jake The Wolfie]

It seems that lots of people are voting without reason. If someone can quote a post telling me why they are voting a certain way I may hop on board.

You may find it easier to accept that people have their reasons for why they're voting when they aren't expressed.

As for me, I'm voting Dragons to pressure them as they are low-activity. I would appreciate some extra support. [I may end up switching to Black/Shadez in a day if no one joins the dWagon.]

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]
As for me, I'm voting Dragons to pressure them as they are low-activity. I would appreciate some extra support. [I may end up switching to Black/Shadez in a day if no one joins the dWagon.]

Strange that you would want to swap to me after saying earlier that I feel fine. What changed?

Are you referring to this post?

Hm. I think Black is ~fine for now.

VOTE: Shaddowez

Shadez! You haven't been around here a lot. Care to try your hand at this beautiful, elegant game?

Because this was both over 200 posts ago and didn't really purport a townread on you. I'll admit that it would imply

some

towncred on you, but a more nuanced read is that I was moving on to another player in a campaign to encourage gameplay.

I wouldn't say much has changed [I haven't ~really~ paid you much mind] in that regard.

If there was another post that you were thinking of, please do bring it to my attention. I may have missed it

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]

I don't don't need you Black, in fact look away from me so I don't turn into stone

-Asclepius

Blacksilisk

[I acknowledge your vote on me, but I'm the last person you need to convince that my posts are fluffier than Milktank Pancakes.]

[Jake The Wolfie]

I wouldn't say much has changed [I haven't ~really~ paid you much mind] in that regard.

Why would you not pay attention to someone you scumread?

[I don't scumread you. More like scumlean.]

Because it's not day 5 with several bodies stone dead on the floor, but rather day 1 with only what other people have said to guide me.

I'm more interested in churning up the game thread than killin folk that look scummy, at least as far as this day is concerned.

[Jake The Wolfie]

This just makes me think your scumread on me was fabricated. The read was based on you thinking I wasn't doing enough. The natural townie thought process would be to keep an eye on me to see if that behavior continues. I don't think it makes much sense for town!you to stop paying attention to me

Hm.

I

could

do that, or I could let your posts rest where they are and re-eval at a later time. It mostly depends on how relevant you are to my worldview at that time. And throughout those 200 posts, you weren't really relevant to my worldview.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I would suggest that no one else joins the Argon wagon in an official capacity, lest The Hammer lurks amongst us.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Ah, nevermind. Carry on

[Jake The Wolfie]

[In preperation for reading Argon, I decided to ISO them. This post caught my eye and gave me an idea.]

catching up again.
~o

Could the other two, Atlanta and Asclepius, please talk to the poet in private such that their thoughts may be brought into the light with each of you as conduits? It's a little annoying how it seems that only 2/3rds of your slot is engaging with the game.

[Jake The Wolfie]

He's been busy. And, uh, not a terribly active and talkative poster in general I think? I can ask him to not bother making "catching up" posts if you'd prefer? Did you have a specific question for him?

-Atalanta

Nothing specific, just their thoughts on the game.

[Jake The Wolfie]

[While I was preparing the ISO on Argon, I came across this conversation with Tao. I would like to discuss these two posts in particular.

I think I still want not_mafia today. He is different from when he was town last time I played with him,. Definitely more reads. and then when I said it, he said 316

Reads? Where? What posts do you see as Not_Mafia making reads?

-Atalanta

He's doing way more here than what he did as town when I was with him before. So that's why I assumed these were reads

[...]

Why did I go from the bottom of your list to the top?

He's just trolling now

How so?

Look at the last name

These two posts are rather contradictory in terms of belief, and they occur only ~18 hours apart. This rather inexplicable and unexplained change of read on Not_Mafia is strange. I might just have to make an ISO on Tao in the future.

[Jake The Wolfie]

We haven't really been doing much of any discussion in private, just so you know, if you're expecting us to be able to give you anything of what he would be thinking. Are two people not enough for you?

-Atalanta

You two have been excellent in your journey thus far, and your ISO is evident of this fact.

[Jake The Wolfie]

[While I was preparing the ISO on Argon, I came across this conversation with Tao. I would like to discuss these two posts in particular.

[[...]]

[[...]]

These two posts are rather contradictory in terms of belief, and they occur only ~18 hours apart. This rather inexplicable and unexplained change of read on Not_Mafia is strange. I might just have to make an ISO on Tao in the future.

I don't think those posts are contradictory at all.

What are your thoughts on them?

[Jake The Wolfie]

[While I was preparing the ISO on Argon, I came across this conversation with Tao. I would like to discuss these two posts in particular.

[[...]]

[[...]]

These two posts are rather contradictory in terms of belief, and they occur only ~18 hours apart. This rather inexplicable and unexplained change of read on Not_Mafia is strange. I might just have to make an ISO on Tao in the future.

I don't think those posts are contradictory at all.

What are your thoughts on them?

If I'm wrong then Hu Tao can correct me, but I interpret it as Hu Tao saying that NM usually trolls almost the entire time instead of just half of the time.

That is both an excellent point and also unsubstantiated by the text. I am left bewildered by this interpretation.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I would suggest that no one else joins the Argon wagon in an official capacity, lest The Hammer lurks amongst us.

but for real this time

[Jake The Wolfie]

I PM'd to sub in to this game, still waiting on confirmation. First time here but I'm somewhat experienced in mafia

How much experiemce do you have?

[Jake The Wolfie]

consolidating for pressure reasons/stronger wagons, not for deadline purposes

vibes, not impressed with the substance of their posts (i know, i know), i think their backup miller claim is more likely to be a scum claim than the Cakez claim tbh

not sure if this is where i wanna land at EoD but my last vote wasn't really doing much

Have you read through their ISO?

[Jake The Wolfie]

If you don't mind then, I'd like to bring out some of their posts for your consideration.

[Jake The Wolfie]

What do you think of these posts, Skygazer?

Spoiler: quotewall of Argon posts

[This is at the tail end of an argument between Argon and Jackson]

Is there a reason you're being rude? Did I hit a nerve? Are you the SK?

-Atalanta

I don't really like how he's positioning to push Lucca and I regardless of what shaddow flips but otherwise I'm getting town vibes there

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh

That's how I would describe the vibes of Jake.

But, I feel like he is kinda my spirit animal, and he is acting in a way I definitely would act as scum.......like he said he hasn't played in a bit, and if I came back to a scum slot I would want the game to be firing on all cylinders.

Yet I do realize I am putting how I would act, not everyone.......just can't shake that feeling for now though

-Asclepius

I think I still want not_mafia today. He is different from when he was town last time I played with him,. Definitely more reads. and then when I said it, he said 316

Reads? Where? What posts do you see as Not_Mafia making reads?

-Atalanta

He's doing way more here than what he did as town when I was with him before. So that's why I assumed these were reads

That doesn't really answer the question - which posts? Yeah, he's posted more than he does some games, but it looks like all joking around to me.

-Atalanta

[Jake The Wolfie]

Alianna, if you wanted to summon Not_Mafia, you'd have to put the E-1 vote on someone.

Also, why did this thread just die? Where did y'all go? Come back!

[Jake The Wolfie]

Hey Argon (and Tao too if you're stilll here) you should totes join my Dragons wagon

[Jake The Wolfie]

Naw, he's probably town.

-Atalanta

Just because his username turned green over the course of this day does not mean that his rolecard is green.


More seriously, I don't really see it. Why do you townread them?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Oh I thought you were serious about that lol.

Well, since I've got your attention I would like your worldview.

one foot off the ground. Idk you're not giving me much to go off here like do you want a readlist or something??

Your musings of this game have been scattered and disorganized. If you would, could you compile your thoughts into a readlist? Nothing too big, I'm mainly looking for a jumping off point for further conversation.

[Jake The Wolfie]

VOTE: Invisibility

Dragon is safe.. for now.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I would suggest that no one else joins the

Argon

wagon in an official capacity, lest The Hammer lurks amongst us.

but

for real

Invisibility this time

Just a reminder

[Jake The Wolfie]

UNVOTE:

Everyone seems to believe in lucca so I’ll pull back.

VOTE: Cakez for the Miller claim

Do you think that Cakez is more likely to be a wolf than the current wagons?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Don't delay, act now
supplies are running out

allow if you're still alive
15 hours to arrive

[Jake The Wolfie]

Some basic NKA:

Hu Tao was probably a Mafia kill. Given that there were generally good vibes all around, Hu Tao wasn't a loyal townread to everyone, but they were generally townread.
Not_Mafia was probably an SK kill. Not only because of the above, but also Mafia are unlikely to kill their prized cow, aiming to axe them instead.

I'll have to go back and check D1 to update this analysis.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I have a loyal modifier and my action failed on you

Jackson, would you like to share your full role to the class?

[Jake The Wolfie]

It is sad that world-class mucho man Randy Passion passed away, leaving evil spirits to take her place.

(This is canon now, and you can't say that it isn't)

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jacob, some advice for you if you are town:

It would be better for you to die giving your insight into your thoughts on the players of this game than to die protesting your innocence and speculating on how a result is wrong.

If you're town, make yourself useful. This is the only way that you will survive today with a redcheck from a town-read player.

[Jake The Wolfie]

If he's actually town and Jackson was roleblocked/lying, that's a totally natural reaction though. He comes in and is on the verge of getting pushed out the door immediately for reasons he knows are false, obviously he's going to be confused and try to figure out what's going on. What kind of insight do you even expect to get from him here when basically everyone is just going "yeah okay let's vote him because guilty"?

I'd like to hear more from Jackson on why he decided to target Jacob's slot.

-Atalanta

Oh, no, don't mistake me giving the transfer student advice on what is considered useful and towny on this site as me expecting insight from the slot before they go out the door.

I'm saying it to inform them for both this game and their games to come.

[Jake The Wolfie]

UNVOTE:

just in case

Superintendant, you need no fear, for the hammer was slain

[Jake The Wolfie]

Well, even with Jacob's head on the chopping block, we still have the discussion of who we *would* have axed today had JV not annoynced a redcheck.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I would've gone with (as though this is surprising) Shadez, Black, and Dragons.

Mainly Dragons. I'll reeval Shadez and Black over the night

[Jake The Wolfie]

This Alianna person should post more than just VCs, like their thoughts on Cook. She hasn't even been prodded this entire game!

[Jake The Wolfie]

I would've gone with (as though this is surprising) Shadez, Black, and Dragons.

Mainly Dragons. I'll reeval Shadez and Black over the night

i liked ur slot better when it was zebedee

Is it because they provided you with zebedee oil?

[Jake The Wolfie]

can i drink that

After heated up to ~420°c

[Jake The Wolfie]

I would've gone with (as though this is surprising) Shadez, Black, and Dragons.

Mainly Dragons. I'll reeval Shadez and Black over the night

So I checked out Black on the overnight and I.. didn't like what I was seeing


Also, Jackson. Would you care to explain why our good friend Jacob was found to be suspicious underneath your watching eye? I think you need to claim good sir.

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jackson, you were the cause of Mass Hysteria yesterday. You need to answer for your crimes. What is your role?

[Jake The Wolfie]

or did you check her ISO

I looked over her case file, and I found that her actions were not for the town.

[Jake The Wolfie]

or did you check her ISO

I looked over her case file, and I found that her actions were not for the town.

Make your case. Why am I scum?

In general:

I know that it's a very frustrating answer to recieve, but I would like you to do more substansive things.

Hm, to give you a direction to head in, I have yet to sink my teeth into Mucho Madam's posts. Could you try your hand at that?

I disagree with the assessment that I haven't done anything substantive, but I'll keep your wishes in mind. In the meantime I'm gonna keep doing my thang

At that point, you did indeed give out some substance, but I was asking for more from you. Yes, you did give out some reads here and there, did a little socializing, but it would've been hardly enough to judge your towncred.

---

Paradoxically, you've implied that you've both posted enough relevant things to be active And that the game has been slow as a reason for inactivity:

Black, my dear, this doesn't seem like you, usually you sink your teeth in a bit more than this. More an observation rather than a read, but is making me say hmmmm

shrug

I would love to sink my teeth in but there hasn't been a lot happening this game

Like I get wanting to vote Black, but I do feel a town vibe from her posts even though she is being lazy lol.

How am I being lazy?

---

This exchange:

[...]
As for me, I'm voting Dragons to pressure them as they are low-activity. I would appreciate some extra support. [I may end up switching to Black/Shadez in a day if no one joins the dWagon.]

Strange that you would want to swap to me after saying earlier that I feel fine. What changed?

Are you referring to this post?

Hm. I think Black is ~fine for now.

VOTE: Shaddowez

Shadez! You haven't been around here a lot. Care to try your hand at this beautiful, elegant game?

Because this was both over 200 posts ago and didn't really purport a townread on you. I'll admit that it would imply

some

towncred on you, but a more nuanced read is that I was moving on to another player in a campaign to encourage gameplay.

I wouldn't say much has changed [I haven't ~really~ paid you much mind] in that regard.

If there was another post that you were thinking of, please do bring it to my attention. I may have missed it

---

For day 1, most of your posts are 1 to 2 lines of questions or simple reads that you had. For most of your posts, you never felt like you needed to elaborate on your points.

So what about the times that you did post more than one or twice? Well...

Spoiler: QuoteWall!

@Black

, since you said I put in words what you were thinking. Thoughts on what I concluded from that? I personally feel reluctant but I do think that realistically that comes from town more than not

I've heard people say that a sense of entitlement comes from town but I haven't really put much thought into determining if that's true or not. It makes sense in theory. I feel like scum want to be less combative early on

I just feel Town has a substantially higher chance of acting entitled because there's no inherent noose dangling over their heads like there is for wolves + they don't feel the need to have a good image

That makes sense, but the last part I don't really agree with. I think certain players feel the need to seem townie when they are town. If people find me as town then I feel like I'm doing something right and the PoE is reduced for the people that townread me, which helps them narrow in on the baddies

1.05

Votecount 1.05

[...]
Mucho Man Randy Passion (1): Black, JacksonVirgo
[...]

(Just wanted to point this out to the mod.)

VOTE: Black
cmon.. do something..

Thanks, fixed.

- Alianna

What would you like me to do? I have a couple of minor reads already but I'm mostly vibing for now. I tend to be busy on the weekends

I kinda feel like there's some solving going on underneath Mucho Man's gimmick. This slot feels hard to read but they might be town

I don't really have any scumreads yet so I'll just help out on another wagon

VOTE: shaddow

I agree that NM seems a little different than normal. Maybe more engaged and active early which I haven't seen from him much. I'm not really sure this is scum indicative though

With all that you said on your page 16, shouldn't you be voting me or Black?

I like this observation. I think it's probably +town for lucca to point this out. Scum are probably more likely to just let Jake push StD here instead of drawing attention to themselves

This just makes me think your scumread on me was fabricated. The read was based on you thinking I wasn't doing enough. The natural townie thought process would be to keep an eye on me to see if that behavior continues. I don't think it makes much sense for town!you to stop paying attention to me

This just makes me think your scumread on me was fabricated. The read was based on you thinking I wasn't doing enough. The natural townie thought process would be to keep an eye on me to see if that behavior continues. I don't think it makes much sense for town!you to stop paying attention to me

Hm.

I

could

do that, or I could let your posts rest where they are and re-eval at a later time. It mostly depends on how relevant you are to my worldview at that time. And throughout those 200 posts, you weren't really relevant to my worldview.

Ok. Maybe this is just a difference in playstyles but I always consider my scumleans relevant to my worldview. Even if I'm pushing inactive slots, I'm always thinking about those scumleans and paying attention to what they are doing

I think we're shaping up to just flashwagon crazily at deadline like the first iteration of this. :lol:

I'm particularly interested in hearing from Black about her vote. I noticed she seemed to be following my vote for a while and now she's doing the opposite.

-Atalanta

I wasn't following your vote, at least not intentionally. I had to look at your ISO to see and all I noticed was we were on the shaddow wagon together

As far as my vote on your slot goes, it was mainly to pressure RH9 and also glean some reactions from the wagon. I had gotten success getting Sky and Invis to talk with pressure votes so I figured I'd do the same with you

VOTE: Invisibility

I haven't really liked anything Invis has done this game

I also feel like RH9 posting several times that he's catching up and then disappearing is probably +town for them. I don't understand why scum!him would do that when he could just...not do that and let Aureal/Drew carry him. It's the type of unnecessary bad optics I don't really expect from scum

Maybe it was just twice. You defended Macho Man when Jackson was saying they were scummy for neutral hunting and now you seem to be defending Jacob

I don't really think it's scummy of you but it's just something I noticed. I'm curious what your read on the slot is

lucca feels super townie to me

Why so? Honest question, I'm not calling out or doubting

I just think a lot of his observations have come from a town perspective. I liked 422. 607 and 615 ping me as the type of paranoia a townie would have. I like the way he admits he's wrong in 610, not really a town-tell but it makes me feel like he's being reasonable. I like 613 as well, makes me think he's trying to legitimately solve

I'm not sure if a Hu Tao vanity wagon is the best idea. We risk a no elimination with all these split wagons

It's time for all the people on the one-vote wagons to start consolidating

Most of these posts are either responding to light to moderate accusations your way or being a bit too over defensive on what you're saying.

---

Here are all of your posts related to Jacob on Day 2:

Spoiler: QuoteWall 2!

That’s awkward. Any town want to claim bad hit on NM? On my phone now so I can’t examine fully but want to get on the board early. Give me a few minutes

Why are you assuming town killed N_M when we have a Mafia kill and an SK in the game?

That’s awkward. Any town want to claim bad hit on NM? On my phone now so I can’t examine fully but want to get on the board early. Give me a few minutes

Why are you assuming town killed N_M when we have a Mafia kill and an SK in the game?

Missed the SK, that's my bad. Most likely no town kill last night which makes more sense.

Ok, that's somewhat believable. But what made you think Hu Tao was the scum kill?

I'm down to fade Jacob

I feel like he TMI'd that Hu Tao was the scum kill

Black Voted me before JV called out the investigation result on me (729) - which was somewhat explained in 721 but still of note I think.

Once JV said he got a guilty it was pretty obvious it was on you considering he opened the day voting for you

In post 770 she quoted Not_Mafia's post 382, where he put out his readlist thing from green to red, saying that the SK was someone low on Not_Mafia's list. This list was a troll list though right? With his own name at the bottom?

It's not necessarily a troll list just because he put himself at the bottom. The rest of the reads could have been real, and probably were

Anyway, if this flips red then the hydra is incredibly townie

Agreed to that

:thinking:

I'm the one that caught him, let me be the one to end him >:)

Be careful what you wish for.

To my townies: I'm still not sure on JV. If he's mafia then he's pretty brave for going so hard at the beginning. At the same time, the numbers point to his guilt.

I'm not sure why scum!JV would pull this gambit just to fade you

You pushed Jacob.

Hard.

Like, really hard. For someone who had a red check on them, that might be understandable. But this is what you did for most of Day 2.
Why am I bringing this up? Well, because this is blatantly not worth it. It would've been a foregone conclusion that Jacob was a wolf. In that time, you could've discussed other things, such as the night kills and how that might've impacted your reads. Additionally, Jackson's results may not have been reliable, something that was discussed during day 2, and that you didn't acknowledge.

This is bloodlust.

---

These two posts are interesting when read together:

That’s awkward. Any town want to claim bad hit on NM? On my phone now so I can’t examine fully but want to get on the board early. Give me a few minutes

Why are you assuming town killed N_M when we have a Mafia kill and an SK in the game?

Missed the SK, that's my bad. Most likely no town kill last night which makes more sense.

Ok, that's somewhat believable. But what made you think Hu Tao was the scum kill?

Some basic NKA:

Hu Tao was probably a Mafia kill. Given that there were generally good vibes all around, Hu Tao wasn't a loyal townread to everyone, but they were generally townread.
Not_Mafia was probably an SK kill. Not only because of the above, but also Mafia are unlikely to kill their prized cow, aiming to axe them instead.

I'll have to go back and check D1 to update this analysis.

Yeah I agree with this. Scum don't ever kill N_M here. He's too valuable to them

I don't really understand why the SK kills him either but here we are

For one of us (Jacob), you scrutinized them for what they said about the night kill, suspecting them for what they said while agreeing with what I said.

Importantly, the two actions that we took were very similar, and yet one of them was further evidence of their guilt while the other was something you could get behind.

---

Meh whatever

VOTE: Jacob24

-Atalanta

This vote seems out of character for you. I'm not used to you being ok with ending the day so early

This isn't literally shading Argon, but it's spiritually shading Argon.

---

I could go into more detail, but in general I scumread you because you've done some seriously sketchy things.

[Jake The Wolfie]

We can't let Alianna get #1000

50 posts away

We all need to come together and prevent this

Agreed. We must put to rest the arbitrary boundaries that divide us and prevent the true enemy from winning: The Moderator.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jake, did you read the ISOs of both Shaddow/STD during the night as well?

Unfortunately, my loyalties for that time were spend elsewhere. At least I read up on Black and got a neat little justification for scumreading them.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jake, did you read the ISOs of both Shaddow/STD during the night as well?

Unfortunately, my loyalties for that time were spend elsewhere. At least I read up on Black and got a neat little justification for scumreading them.

You are scumreading me for things that aren't inherently scummy. You might want to check your confbias. It feels like you have been reading my posts with rose colored glasses all game

And yet for some reason you haven't really pushed me? You open the day saying you think I'm scum but you vote for JV instead

I feel like a case of that size should be accompanied with a vote

Ah well.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Paradoxically, you've implied that you've both posted enough relevant things to be active And that the game has been slow as a reason for inactivity:

Aureal was implying that I didn't feel like my usual self because I typically pounce on people early. I

was

posting relevant things, but I

wasn't

pouncing on anyone. This is not a paradox and I was not inactive

For day 1, most of your posts are 1 to 2 lines of questions or simple reads that you had.

This isn't scummy

Most of these posts are either responding to light to moderate accusations your way or being a bit too over defensive on what you're saying.

This isn't scummy either, and is actually something I do often as town. You can check my previous games if you'd like

You pushed Jacob. Hard. Like, really hard. For someone who had a red check on them, that might be understandable. But this is what you did for most of Day 2.

This is bloodlust.

Again, not scummy. That was me sinking my teeth in as referenced earlier. I tend to do that when I think someone is scum

For one of us (Jacob), you scrutinized them for what they said about the night kill, suspecting them for what they said while agreeing with what I said.

Importantly, the two actions that we took were very similar, and yet one of them was further evidence of their guilt while the other was something you could get behind.

You two said similar things in completely different ways. These are not comparable

This isn't literally shading Argon, but it's spiritually shading Argon.

I thought it was strange how she displayed behavior that she doesn't normally display as town. Of course I'm going to press her on it

Your case is poop

Is it? I'm unconvinced.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I do

Ok. Why?

Mostly from their predecessor, who leaked entitlement like it was sweat and that was incredibly townie to me. Going back to the very early game and their interaction with me it didn't feel like scum at all and considering it was us "swinging" at each other that's pretty telling to me as usually in that circumstance just through inherent bias you get the feeling of scum when someone pushes against you or at least it does for me and I didn't get much of an ounce of scumminess from Clap while disagreeing entirely with what they were doing. It feels pretty cut and dry to me

Now that I'm writing this out, I'm now remembering Jake has asked me to claim like so much. Not just today,

@Jake

, what is in your head that makes you think a claim from me even remotely makes a difference in how you read me?

You're claiming to be an investigative role. I would wish to know which one you are.

I'm claiming that your mechanical competency is under question, and that the sooner you claim, the sooner your role could be verified by other people.

[Jake The Wolfie]

You're claiming to be an investigative role. I would wish to know which one you are.

I'm not, I'm claiming I have a loyal modifier

And thus by extension I can get information

I've asked the moderator whether someone with the Loyal modifier would inherently get information by visiting, and the response I received denied that they would.

You, or anyone else, can ask this or similar and get this or similar responses.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I've asked the moderator whether someone with the Loyal modifier would inherently get information by visiting, and the response I received denied that they would.

If they get feedback, which I would, I would know if it landed.

Does the Loyal modifier inherently give feedback or not?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Do you have screws loose? I never said it did

This is correct, you never said that it did.

With this understanding, your role is one that inherently receives feedback, and the Loyal modifier can have an effect on that feedback.

So, what is your role?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jake. How would you act if I claimed loyal checker? Or loyal vigilante? Or loyal neighbourizer? They are all the exact same in this situation, my claim is not needed. I am not bending over and willingly removing my possible utility just because you just want to know. Which is what it is, and that's me speaking conservatively because I think you're Town.

I am done taking to you about this.

Those last two; Are their base PRs the ones that would recieve feedback as a result of their action, or is their feedback implied and a wider range of roles could affect the percieved feedback?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Say you were the Loyal Vig and the person you shot failed to die. Are you trying to imply that the only relevant factors in this are if they are a wolf and if you were prevented from visiting them? Wouldn't them being protected be a valid option as well?

[Jake The Wolfie]

I'm not claiming, I don't care what "reasonings" you invent to believe that it's ideal. It isn't.
If you think I'm wolf,

push me

, not my role

Jackson, I'm calling your mechanical competence into question, and the main reason I could imagine a more experienced player being less competent than I is that they are lying and are scum.

[Jake The Wolfie]

And I'm saying, I looked up all the roles that could affect my role and said it was roughly an 8% chance. Stop role fishing

pedit: I don't really care what you're calling out, it's meaningless

And how could we trust that it is a comprehensive list?

[Jake The Wolfie]

And I'm saying, I looked up all the roles that could affect my role and said it was roughly an 8% chance. Stop role fishing

pedit: I don't really care what you're calling out, it's meaningless

And how could we trust that it is a comprehensive list?

Does it matter? As I said to Jacob himself, the chance was >rand to a substantial degree and I scum-read him anyway as did many others. You're barking up the wrong tree

It might not. The only thing that might matter is that it's more likely that you are >rand scum than you would be >rand town with a framed result.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Ooh, pagetop

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jackson, you don't need to claim. You need to answer for why you are more likely to be town than scum despite you killing a townie.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Who was scum reading him?

Majority of people that had voted them because of the guilty had claimed that they were in their scum pile.

It might not. The only thing that might matter is that it's more likely that you are >rand scum than you would be >rand town with a framed result.

Great, this is a start of you starting to actually push me for me rather than asking for my claim. Why am I >rand scum? The soft-guilty and how people treated it were a direct view at the views that people had on them. If I had instead failed my action on someone people had thought was town, it would have been met with higher levels of scrutiny. What benefit would scum!JV have to fake a red-check on a Town on day 2 of all days

I don't have time to do a deep dive statistical argument for why you're likely to be scum, but suffice for now to say that it is more likely that you lied about having a redcheck of the loyal variety on Jacob than it is that it was a framed result.

In an ideal scum!Jackson world, Jacob would have been the SK. In a less ideal one, on the overnight after Jacob dies two town players die, leading to a 3 Town, 3 Mafia, 1 SK Elo, a very enviable position for scum.
You would have at least some motivation to have this happen, even if you got caught in the backlash.

[I'm doing my grocery shopping right now, responses will be delayed until I finish.]

[Jake The Wolfie]

Ima make a drink and come back, love you <3

:oops:

[Jake The Wolfie]

If you want a proper response, ask more focused questions. I'm not arguing "You're scummy, you gotta answer me as to why you're not scummy"

Alright. Got done shopping.

Last night, you investigated Cakez. What led you to investigate him?

[Jake The Wolfie]

I didn't actually know we were that close to Elo if we are, that's actually pretty scary

Yeah, currently there are 5 (+1) town alive and 3 wolves alive.

Not exactly Elo, but it's very weird.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I think I know what you'd claim to be, and it's a little confusing.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I mean just keep what you think it is to yourself thanks, if it's confusing it really shouldn't be if you think about me utilising the loyal modifier over the other part

What motivation did you have to target Jacob as opposed to other, more experienced players?

[Jake The Wolfie]

[...]

I don't really care about the >rand scum stuff. I want reasonings, not placements. Just fyi. Why would scum!JV risk putting his ass out in the line of fire for an elim that was realistic to get anyway? If I was willing to take myself out, would I not use that play as an opportunity to take out someone of a higher caliber than a new player that many people already had in their scum pool?

Was it realistic? I know you stated earlier that a lot of people had Jacob in their scumpile; Who are these people, and where did they say as such before you broke the news?

Anyone else you could've claimed a guilty on would've been an experienced player who could conceivably wriggle their way out of an axe, or at the very least provide a good last testament before their death, either of which would make the venture more risky. I don't know your scum game, so I wouldn't know how big of a risk taker you are.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I mean just keep what you think it is to yourself thanks, if it's confusing it really shouldn't be if you think about me utilising the loyal modifier over the other part

What motivation did you have to target Jacob as opposed to other, more experienced players?

It was more complex than a simple motivation as I will have to explain my entire gameplan that I went in with to really explain it but simply put I scum-read them, they were LHF and were not getting pushed to any real degree. If I could confirm they're a wolf, yay me I get some cookies my pride can munch on. If they're Town, they're out of the scum pool entirely and we're ballin'. They were unlikely to get shot given their position and I could actively push against their wagon without being obvious about it to keep what we had alive and kicking for as long as I can, hopefully to a point where we win by default through numbers. Given you asked this question I'm pretty sure you know my role so I should just claim but I'm not going to because I'm stubborn

Do you think they would've been a more useful player to target than a nullread?
[In order to ask what I'd want to ask, I would need a more complete list of your reads.]

[Jake The Wolfie]

Anyone else you could've claimed a guilty on would've been an experienced player who could conceivably wriggle their way out of an axe, or at the very least provide a good last testament before their death, either of which would make the venture more risky. I don't know your scum game, so I wouldn't know how big of a risk taker you are.

If I really wanted someone out I would have claimed a hard guilty, or that N1 informed that has like two options one of which is confirmed evil to get the elims I needed without the backlash. For my scum game, it's incredibly wide and I don't think anybody can realistically catch me based on how I'm acting in comparison with other games but what I can say is that I am always the scum that plays for the endgame and as such, I often (and I don't recall a game where I was invested and didn't) make endgame when I'm actively motivated and trying.

Sure, you could have done that. However, it would have been more risky on your end. Something which I stated in that post.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I mean just keep what you think it is to yourself thanks, if it's confusing it really shouldn't be if you think about me utilising the loyal modifier over the other part

What motivation did you have to target Jacob as opposed to other, more experienced players?

It was more complex than a simple motivation as I will have to explain my entire gameplan that I went in with to really explain it but simply put I scum-read them, they were LHF and were not getting pushed to any real degree. If I could confirm they're a wolf, yay me I get some cookies my pride can munch on. If they're Town, they're out of the scum pool entirely and we're ballin'. They were unlikely to get shot given their position and I could actively push against their wagon without being obvious about it to keep what we had alive and kicking for as long as I can, hopefully to a point where we win by default through numbers. Given you asked this question I'm pretty sure you know my role so I should just claim but I'm not going to because I'm stubborn

Do you think they would've been a more useful player to target than a nullread?
[In order to ask what I'd want to ask, I would need a more complete list of your reads.]

For sure, I wanted to get on the right path as fast as I possibly can. If I'm on the wrong path, I want to know I have to shift off as fast as I can possibly get it. If I can clear a wrong path and form a [redacted] at the same time OR verify that I am on the right path and keep going I am FOR SURE taking that path. I trust in my reads a lot, and I use mech to supplement it for where I'm off and that's no different here.

Jackson, is it within your play style to check players you think are highly likely to be scum rather than pushing them during the day?

[Jake The Wolfie]

How is it risky?

The person you would be pushing against with evidence, they would be more experienced with the game and more able to defend themselves. Even when you axe them, they would have given out more town-driven content that would be usable, as they are more experienced with what the town needs.

You may have been able to claim a redcheck on anyone to get them axed, but you risk being caught in the backlash.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jackson, is it within your play style to check players you think are highly likely to be scum rather than pushing them during the day?

No it isn't

Would it be within your play style to check players you thought had some scum equity?

[Jake The Wolfie]

How is it risky?

The person you would be pushing against with evidence, they would be more experienced with the game and more able to defend themselves. Even when you axe them, they would have given out more town-driven content that would be usable, as they are more experienced with what the town needs.

You may have been able to claim a redcheck on anyone to get them axed, but you risk being caught in the backlash.

If I wanted to gambit I would gambit, I wouldn't do a half assed one to get a LHF killed but this is beyond the point

You would have needed to gambit if this LHF wasn't as scumread as you've said.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jackson, is it within your play style to check players you think are highly likely to be scum rather than pushing them during the day?

No it isn't

Would it be within your play style to check players you thought had some scum equity?

I'm not sure if you're talking in a specific way or not, if you're asking a super specific question that I am not understanding please clarify but I check players who I scum-read. I'm confident in my reads as I said, and if I start walking off the proper path, I want to get back on it so I do that. I definitely see the use in checking those (on a surface level anyway) I am less sure on but the options are that if I clear them then great I'm still on the path I am on. If I'm wrong that's a mislim. If it's a red-check great, but I feel deep down that I feel more confident that my scum-read flips red than someone I'm not sure on. Which is obvious lol. So why would I do a suboptimal check from my pov?

Aka I check who I think are wolves

Spoiler:

I'm already confident you are meaning this as the logic you had town-read me for before when I was talking with Clap, I wanted to ask you to make sure so I don't unnecessarily tunnel on you but like I'm impatient and the feelings behind this is dying to get loose, so I'm not waiting any further to write this up. I will sit on my hands for a little bit after writing this and because of the amount of effort I'll be putting in with this I will probably post it anyway even if you do say it wasn't to do with back then.

Alright, so walking through it. In post 58 you said that you were ready to say that we're both Town as of post 53. I ask you what reasoning you had to label both of us as Town this early, you say that for me I was townie because I spoke honestly and with detached curiosity. Because of that read, you wanted us to both look elsewhere insinuating that this read was not a throwaway vibe read, it was a confident one that you wanted us to focus elsewhere for. So this read was to do with my content as of and prior to post 53.

Okie dokes, so taking your reasoning to heart, I looked back at every single one of my posts as of 53 and prior there is not a

single

post that had even an

ounce

of curiosity in it, at all. I was calling out Claps' logic for what I saw it as. If I take detached curiosity as I am seeing the thread with an open mind (aka not attached to any particular idea) then that isn't true either, I was straight up shading Clap for most of that and laughing at him for taking this further than it needed to be taken. On top of that, what could I even have remotely said in those four posts that would give you any sense of my honesty? The only part that I spoke about myself that could be attributed to that type of read is me talking about my voting patterns which has absolutely no alignment-tell within it at all, even if you thought it was it would be shallow at

best

.

All this logic would definitely apply to my current play completely and I believe that the initial read on both of us was faked for whatever reason you have needed to fake it. When I waited for you to answer why your read was the way it was, the game advanced further so my true play revealed itself which you could pin as speaking honestly and with detached curiosity. But since your initial read was fake, you don't have the recall about the read that you would have if it was genuine and thus you claim that you read on me as of post 58 was from my actions in the future.

And that don't make much no gosh darn sense, does it?

VOTE: Mucho Man Randy Passion

Look at my posts for yourself

Spoiler: My posts

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VOTE: Not_Mafia

Just curious - I've seen this from you before, is it a standard opening you use to avoid giving information?

Straight into shading someone, gotta love it

Just curious - I've seen this from you before, is it a standard opening you use to avoid giving information?

Straight into shading someone, gotta love it

Says the man throwing shade without a vote.

Since when did I need to place a vote to make a point

Since when did I need to place a vote to make a point

What's the motivation for a townie who sees supposedly scummy activity, and isn't currently voting anyone, to NOT vote the scummy activity? OTOH, scum could want to point out the activity in hope that another townie picks up on it and starts a push.

Also, your point on my question is wrong. Even if she answers yes, that just means she's playing to her overall scum meta (town would want towniness to come through in RVS). It says nothing about this particular game. It's literally designed to say nothing about this game. So, how would I push her on it, even with an affirmative answer?

All the question does is help me understand her for future games. That's why I prefaced it with "Just curious."

Oh you're serious, lmfao alright.
Even if I was serious enough to think you were >rand wolf from this, I don't care about a vote, I consider it a useless thing to flop around unless I really wanna do something with it or I'm making a joke. If a vote is what's needed to make a point, there's no point in doing anything but just voting people. We can use words, so I'll use words.

My point on your question isn't wrong, it's framed in a way that appears to be trying to make them look bad OR to make you look like you're doing something both of which are bad but I didn't even remotely care outside of poking fun until you're taking this way further than I expected it to.

Ah fuck just realised macho won't respond to me. They've been neutral hunting, which is a scum tell

Was she neut hunting? She mentioned it a few times, but it wasn't like, her passion project.

Who would make it super obvious? It's a common scum tell, her focus was finding the SK.

we really should be DOMINATING the third party REFEREE today

Nor do I agree that thinking it could be best to take out the SK first is a scumtell. Especially when you're just coming out and saying it like that.

How is it not? Is this a cultural difference? The only people who should care about taking out/focusing the SK are the mafia. Town should just be focusing on who is wolfy

1.FINAL

Votecount 1.FINAL

Invisibility (EXECUTED): shaddowez, Black, SirCakez, Jake The Wolfie, Save The Dragons, Hu Tao, Skygazer, Roden
shaddowez (2): Not_Mafia, Argonauts
Argonauts (1): Invisibility
Jacob24 (1): JacksonVirgo
Skygazer (1): lucca261
SirCakez (1): Jacob24

With 14 players alive, it took 8 votes to secure an execution.

And I thought they were a wolf

And if I get nudged off the wrong path by a green check. I also have the benefits of my role that I can utilise, which to be was a secondary use. At least that was my focus this game.

If I'm understanding this right, you've (generally) chosen players for whom you expected your ability to fail?

[Jake The Wolfie]

^{haha i won}

Not as mechanically incompetent after all. While I would be rather frustrated with you and I still don't trust you, I can at least see how your actions would be Jackson!motivated.

VOTE: Black

[Jake The Wolfie]

My gameplan was to lean into the loyal part of the neighbourhood. There's little point (in my eyes) picking who I think is Town if I want to utilise both sides of the role so I felt to squeeze the most utility out of the role, I have to first focus on the loyal modifier which can double as a way to nudge me in the right direction in terms of my reads AND if my scum-reads are wrong I form a masonry that is unlikely to get shot and I can direct people away from to keep them in the balance of not at risk of getting shot AND elimmed so then the masonry lives on much further. If I'm mostly wrong in the game, I form a strong and large masonry. If I'm right, we kill wolves. Optimal even if my reads are wrong rather than just verifying my town-reads which I feel is next to useless or doing what I said earlier and picking nulls which keeps me on the path I am on which does me no good

I hope you can see where I'm coming from when I say

What The Fuck Why Would You Think This

given that I have not done a meta dive on you and would have no frame of reference on whether this is normal behaviour or you just being buck wild.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I'll wait for Black to respond to you Jake before I add my 2c

Black hath responded. Let the words spill from your mind.

[Jake The Wolfie]

When I'm Town, I have the freedom to play how I see fit. What's the problem with that mindset? Lmfao

To answer this question, I would need to go so far out of the scope of this game that it would necessarily have to be in a Mafia Discussion post just so that the presumption of good faith would be guaranteed by all parties.

[Jake The Wolfie]

When I'm Town, I have the freedom to play how I see fit. What's the problem with that mindset? Lmfao

To answer this question, I would need to go so far out of the scope of this game that it would necessarily have to be in a Mafia Discussion post just so that the presumption of good faith would be guaranteed by all parties.

Aww, alright :C

Generally, you do things as town to try and win the game. You wouldn't, say, act like a total buffoon, refuse to cooperate, or make totally batshit off-the-wall gambits that would be nigh-guarenteed to fail.

As mentioned, would need to be in a MD post to get anything useful done and to get rid of any self-interest.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I don't really want your push, nor Black's push. I think you're both voting town

Since no-one else is here, would you like to

engage in an hour-long debate

discuss why you think Black is town?

You seem rather certain that they're town, and I'd want to see another person's perspective.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I can see scum motivation, I just don't see it

as

being motivated by being scum. I don't know if that makes sense but just to clarify

What would the latter look like to you?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Have a good night, Jackson.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Good morning, Jackson.

[Jake The Wolfie]

@mod - not V/LA, just saying hi

Hi!

- Alianna

[Jake The Wolfie]

Good morning, Jackson.

Mornin'. Woke up to a storm, which was actually really cozy

Ooh, I do like that.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Could someone sanity check me on this?

It seems like Black and Jackson are vibing incredibly hard with eachother.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Yeah, which is why I'm asking to be sanity checked.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Where do you think that feeling is coming from?

It's coming from the knowledge that I have been known to scumread the two of you, and so I would have bias in this exchange, which is why I asked to be sanity checked.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I know why you asked to be sanity checked and I respect that a lot, I'm specifically asking if you know where the feeling is coming from in regards to the actual read you had. Is it just because we seem to be vibing AND you're scum-reading both of us or is there something more?

When I was looking over her ISO, I couldn't help but notice that Black has mostly strayed close to you, with only a few conflicts if I recall.

Like, take the start of today. Black followed your vote, with no hesitation or second thought. It was only after it was revealed that any check that you made on Cakez would've inevitibly turn up red that she moved her vote onto someone else.

This is just one example, and I haven't read your ISO through to see if it holds up on your end, but it just feels fishy.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I do understand how in isolation it has an innocent explanation, however what I'm proposing is that this is one part of a pattern of a behaviour that she has shown.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Spoiler: Sometimes I put quote walls in my quote walls. Not this time.

wya Black we need to talk peaceably

I'm at work brother

All the question does is help me understand her for future games. That's why I prefaced it with "Just curious."

What purpose would town!you genuinely have to ask that question. "Do you purposefully say specific things to avoid giving information". Even if you get a yes or a no, it's a useless answer. It feels like you weren't genuinely asking it, more so making a point about what they were saying (aka shading them) or you were asking a question for the sake of appearing to do something pro-town (busywork). You say you explained it but you barely did such a thing, you gave shallow and unprovable reasoning and pretending like it's foolproof? I don't actually care too much about the message itself, one argument is one argument it's not damning by any stretch of the imagination but the way you're acting is almost entitled

You put into words what I was pretty much thinking about Clap's question

---

That makes sense, but the last part I don't really agree with. I think certain players feel the need to seem townie when they are town. If people find me as town then I feel like I'm doing something right and the PoE is reduced for the people that townread me, which helps them narrow in on the baddies

Sure I know some townies focus on their image but that isn't really taking from what I'm saying as I'm saying most wolves

do

focus on their image and therefore doing the opposite is townie. It shouldn't really matter if other townies can focus on their image, it doesn't detract from the logic it just matters about the wolves wanting to focus on their image.

Ok yeah I see what you're saying

---

I'm the one that caught him, let me be the one to end him >:)

Be careful what you wish for.

To my townies: I'm still not sure on JV. If he's mafia then he's pretty brave for going so hard at the beginning. At the same time, the numbers point to his guilt.

I'm not sure why scum!JV would pull this gambit just to fade you

These were some of the ones I was looking at.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Where do you think that feeling is coming from?

It's coming from the knowledge that I have been known to scumread the two of you, and so I would have bias in this exchange, which is why I asked to be sanity checked.

You've been known to scumread Jackson and Black? You guys are being really confusing and probably partly because Jackson just uses whatever pronouns he feels like describing people with.

-Atalanta

Maybe not Jackson before today, but yes.

[Jake The Wolfie]

That answer only confuses me more. Are you talking about what's happened in THIS game? That isn't the expected use of the phrase. You sounded like you were talking about previous games.

-Atalanta

In this game.

If you read my ISO, you would see that I generally scumread Black. At the start of today, Day 3, I also started scumreading Jackson.

This is what I meant when I said that it is known that I scumread both Black and Jackson.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Ima be straight, I got no idea what you're seeing in those posts

What I'm seeing is that whenever Black has interacted with or adjacent to you, she has generally fallen in line with what you've said.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jake can you link a town-game from you

Meta Good?

[Jake The Wolfie]

If you want access to all of my games, you'll need to traverse the forbidden path of my wiki page.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Spoiler: In which Black and Jackson Argue

@Black

, since you said I put in words what you were thinking. Thoughts on what I concluded from that? I personally feel reluctant but I do think that realistically that comes from town more than not

@Black

, since you said I put in words what you were thinking. Thoughts on what I concluded from that? I personally feel reluctant but I do think that realistically that comes from town more than not

I've heard people say that a sense of entitlement comes from town but I haven't really put much thought into determining if that's true or not. It makes sense in theory. I feel like scum want to be less combative early on

@Black

, since you said I put in words what you were thinking. Thoughts on what I concluded from that? I personally feel reluctant but I do think that realistically that comes from town more than not

I've heard people say that a sense of entitlement comes from town but I haven't really put much thought into determining if that's true or not. It makes sense in theory. I feel like scum want to be less combative early on

Combative is not the word I'd use to describe this type of read, but yeah in general they would. I just feel Town has a substantially higher chance of acting entitled because there's no inherent noose dangling over their heads like there is for wolves + they don't feel the need to have a good image.

I just feel Town has a substantially higher chance of acting entitled because there's no inherent noose dangling over their heads like there is for wolves + they don't feel the need to have a good image

That makes sense, but the last part I don't really agree with. I think certain players feel the need to seem townie when they are town. If people find me as town then I feel like I'm doing something right and the PoE is reduced for the people that townread me, which helps them narrow in on the baddies

That makes sense, but the last part I don't really agree with. I think certain players feel the need to seem townie when they are town. If people find me as town then I feel like I'm doing something right and the PoE is reduced for the people that townread me, which helps them narrow in on the baddies

Sure I know some townies focus on their image but that isn't really taking from what I'm saying as I'm saying most wolves

do

focus on their image and therefore doing the opposite is townie. It shouldn't really matter if other townies can focus on their image, it doesn't detract from the logic it just matters about the wolves wanting to focus on their image.

Ok yeah I see what you're saying

Here is the argument, in full.

Yes, Black did disagree with you; And at the end of that argument she agreed with you.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Yes, Black did disagree with you; And at the end of that argument she agreed with you.

Great, she agreed with me. Can town not agree with somebody?

^{No, never. Town must always be unique.}

That's not the point I was making. It's one part of a larger case.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Could someone sanity check me on this?

It seems like Black and Jackson are vibing incredibly hard with eachother.

This one.

Case might not be the right word. Observation? Argument? Hypothesis? Jackson, you're encyclopedic, help me out here!

[Jake The Wolfie]

I'm going to cook dinner now.

I hope to see a defensible explanation for your Black townread, Jackson.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I can see scum motivation, I just don't see it

as

being motivated by being scum. I don't know if that makes sense but just to clarify

What would the latter look like to you?

Just simple stuff like scum motivation being talking for the sake of a push rather than pushing because that's the outcome of the talking. Awful wording but I think I'm making sense? Copium

I'm really tired

This was the context that I was expecting your response to take. Granted, you were sleepy at the time.

Could you explain what you meant when you posted this?

[Jake The Wolfie]

sorry i got sick

i'm getting town/town from the jackson-jake back and forth but if i'm wrong i think i'm wrong on jackson

why did everyone forget about argonauts

Is there something terribly wrong with Argon that I missed?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jackson, be not afraid, for I am writing up a response to your post.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I believe it. Who can vouch for you?

[Jake The Wolfie]

i am a neighbour by myself lol

What a cruel Moderator we have.

[Jake The Wolfie]

To not even employ normal GIM tactics and give this neighbor a pair is a cruel and unusual punishment.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I'm twiddlin' my toes waiting for you Jake

Twiddle faster.

[Jake The Wolfie]

How can I be partnered with everyone

polyamary

[Jake The Wolfie]

How was the Odyssey, poet?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Spoiler: nimi sinpin, Wall of Text

(68) "You put into words what I was pretty much thinking about Clap's question"

I liked this at the time because it felt like we were on the same wavelength, I felt the way Clap was speaking was incredibly obvious to be the way I was explaining it and when Black said that she agreed with me it made me feel two things. One of which "showed" me that I am on the right path which idk if you got this impression yet, is very important to me and also if she did truly think this way that it's a good sign that we're thinking on the same wavelength, which is townie. Of course just from this one post you can't really know if it's true or not, not saying that it's obvious that we were (and she's not pocketing me) but it's what made me start vibing with her.

I wanted to check if she had her own thoughts on that or if she was copying my reads, so I asked her what her conclusions were to it and it was different than mine. Which is a really good sign to me, cuz she could have just agreed and said that we both had the same line of thinking (for if it were a pocket attempt) but she didn't. She responded to me with her own beliefs on her wrist, misunderstanding what I was saying. So it truly was a "mindmeld" of sorts but she was misunderstanding me.

I doubt scum would take the effort to purposefully fake a misunderstanding only to just agree with me at the end. That takes a lot of weird backwards ass logic to assume so Occam's razor just tells me that it's her true thoughts and that we were mindmelding. Which is a huge deal for me.

And in 149 they posted something that I myself was thinking (aka they were posting in a way to make me look bad), but didn't say which is the inverse of what happened earlier in the game which again is a huge sign. They follow up in their next post with posts that was not along the same line of thinking and calling out lucca, but trying to understand their pov.

Their town-read on me (and lack of reads on anybody else as of 194) makes a lot of sense from a town!black pov as I am a person who said what she was thinking but that may be injecting what I town-read people from into her so take with a grain of salt.

297 feels like they're genuinely giving Mucho the light of day to open themselves up and show us what they're made of rather than pushing because it's easy. They weren't afraid to say that they don't have scum-reads and they're just voting for the sake of wagoning somebody. It feels raw and pure to me.

432 Black addressing Skygazer this way (after voting them) in a way that gives them an out. It seems like a question that if coming from scum was made to make Skygazer look bad/worse, giving a reason for the ADHD seems unnecessary and not like something Black would be thinking of instead just remove that sentence to lessen Skygazers social positioning in a sense. This one is a little iffy cuz I don't really know but it's what I had thought in the moment, I don't myself hold much weight to this one.

I like both 616 and 618 as it shows they're giving the game critical thought rather than pushing and casing those they think they can/should be pushing.

855 was another example of saying something that I was thinking, although this was an obvious one that I feel scum could and would catch. When this happened in the moment I figured Jacob was just talking about TRing the hydra and has nothing to do with the "if this flips red" cuz that's silly.

Black could have very easily just followed me in my Cakez vote, but they didn't they voted off in their own reads which I like. When I explain to them that I town-read STD they genuinely started trying to get in my brain to understand me it feels like instead of just disregarded my TR (which they could have done considering I started taking pretty vaguely and then elaborated only after they asked me more questions) and just pushing anyway. Them readdressing the reads of "lack of towniness" of all their PoE is the only thing I don't really like but that's NAI I think, or I wanna think it's NAI anyway.

When you made your case against Black, Black's rose-tinted glasses analogy fits perfectly with how I see you making your arguments so it feels like a pure and genuine response to your wall-case.

Before I dive into my thoughts on this, I would like to state my general appreciation with the text. While I don't agree with its' conclusion, this was well written and a useful resource.

Point 1

, in this conversation, Black takes the position that some town players are likely to care about their self image, while Jackson takes the position that most wolves are likely to care about their self image. Both of these positions are reasonable, and Black ends their end of the conversation by agreeing that Jackson's position is reasonable.
For my analysis, this is more or less NAI. It would be expected for any alignment to agree with Jackson's position here.

Point 2

, Black makes the observation that Lucca either scumread Jackson or (what I believe Black had more faith in) Lucca was attempting to shade Jackson. She follows this up with a question to Lucca:

[...]
Do you think there are differences between his play in that game and in this game?

After a while and a reminder from Black, Lucca answers that the two games didn't have many similarities that he could see.

Now, regardless of whether Lucca was scumreading Jackson or shading him, this is a normal response to Lucca's actions. While I might take issue with Black's uncertainty and lack of a clear interpretation of Lucca's actions [Was this a scumread by Lucca, or was this shading from Lucca?], I think that these two posts are more or less unremarkable.
With the question pointed at Lucca, I get the feeling that it feels a little iffy. This is by no means an attack on Black, but it feels like a weird question to be asking Lucca.

Point 3

, Black (among other things) shares that they like Jackson, but feel mixed about everything else.

You've provided one minor criticism of this point yourself, but I would like to bring something else up. Remember 149? Black provided what I called a lack of a clear interpretation. This is a bit of a reach, but the combination of these two posts [149 and 194] suggests that Black hadn't formed an interpretation of Lucca's action, instead listing out the two most likely options. I find this to be suspicious, but not outright wolfy.

Point 4

, Black backs off Mucho stating that while she was hard to read, Black could see some solving from behind the mask. She then moves her vote onto Shadez, stating that she had no scumreads at this time and was joining on a wagon.

For the first part of this, I think that this is NAI. Given the context of Black up to this point, she has been more laid back and chill. If she were a wolf, she might not want to engage with Mucho because of this context, a deviation of what a wolf might be expected to do. [Going after a player for hiding behind a posting gimmick.] A town Black would, naturally, be telling the truth here and be wanting to move on.

For the second part of this, I would like to conjecture that this is posturing by Black. Consider posts 329 and 330. These two posts are continuations of Black lacking wolfreads, without much effort in trying to obtain wolfreads. Why do I say this is posturing instead of frustrated town?
Black had a few opportunities, between post 297 and 329, to engage with current events, however she opted not to do this.

Could this be town-motivated? Certainly. Her next posts engage with the game as it happens. Do I believe that town would make these posts? I don't know, I would suspect not.

Point 5

, Black questions Skygazer regarding their lack of interaction with the game. This is a continuation of questioning that Black started after Skygazer replied to her original vote on them. The exchange ends when Skygazer admits to have only read a few pages, with Black giving them a townlean from it.

Like with point 3, you've erred on the side of caution with making this point. I don't have many notes here; Black could've pointed Skygazer in a useful direction here, but it's not wolfy of her to not have. The main issue that I might have will be elaborated in the next point.

Point 6

, Black responds to a post by Argon which defends Jacob's slot, questioning Argon on what their read on Jacob was and pointing out that they've defended Jacob a few times. Argon responds with no knowledge of these defenses. Black in turn points out two instances of Argon defending Jacob's slot, followed with both another ask of their read on Jacob and stating that she doesn't scumread Argon for this behaviour.

The initial question by Black feels off to me. Why should Argon's read on Jacob dictate whether they can defend another player? This may be a difference of opinion, but from my perspective it shouldn't matter what your read on a player is. I'm sure you'd agree, Jackson, that even if a player you lock!Wolf was attacked with an awful argument, that you should still be able to defend them from that argument.
Regardless, I think that Black's tone between post 616 and 618, being more aggressive in the former and diplomatic in the latter, is a little suspicious to me. If I were to try to put it into words, it's as if Argon's response was unexpectedly lax to Black and they had to tune it back to not look outright hostile.
This is complete speculation on my part, and if someone could vouch that Black is just like this I'd be willing to drop it.

Point 7

:

Anyway, if this flips red then the hydra is incredibly townie

Agreed to that

Well, you're right that it was obvious enough to catch, given that Lucca did before Black in post 853. Not by an insignificant time margin, either. It was more or less 30 minutes, certainly enough time for Black to have seen that Lucca replied. Regardless, this is NAI 7 ways to Sundaye.

Point 8, Finale.

There was something interesting that I caught in that interaction between you and Black. You had responded to it, even. It was this tidbit:

I do

Ok. Why?

Mostly from their predecessor, who leaked entitlement like it was sweat and that was incredibly townie to me. Going back to the very early game and their interaction with me it didn't feel like scum at all and considering it was us "swinging" at each other that's pretty telling to me as usually in that circumstance just through inherent bias you get the feeling of scum when someone pushes against you or at least it does for me and I didn't get much of an ounce of scumminess from Clap while disagreeing entirely with what they were doing. It feels pretty cut and dry to me
[...]

Can you point out what entitlement you saw?
[...]

Now this is more strange than suspicious to me, but this post puts into focus the fact that Point 1 (the agreement that you two achieved,) was not about what had happened over the course of this game, but rather was about Mafia Theory.


I shall take a bow, to avoid the death glare that Jackson will give me for not spoilering this wall post.

[Jake The Wolfie]

For Brevity:

(In point 3)

I don't see a lack of clear interpretation in those posts, I see she's confident that it was made to make me look worse which was what I had concluded as well. Can you elaborate further as to why you see it the way you do?

I think i misread that post by Black. I thought it was saying that Black was both saying that Lucca was scumreading you (presumably, as town) while also saying that Lucca was shading you (presumably, as a wolf)

(In point 8)

What are you making of that? If it was mostly about mafia theory, why does that reflect on her alignment. I'll wait to say my full thoughts for when you answer that

I made of it as more evidence to confirm that the earlier convo was about mechanics.

Speaking of that...

(In point 1)

It's not about the outcome that I'm reading into, just because somebody agrees with someone else doesn't make it AI (on its own anyway). I think that the way they were doing it and the way they followed up that showed natural progression on a read rather than one forced to change because of foolproof logic from the god amongst men, JV

I can see how it's a natural progression for someone to take, but the important part is that this would be true regardless of alignment.
The conversation wasn't about anything game-related, but instead about mafia philosophy and theory.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Nah, I think this is scum!sky

I feel like there is usually a point in Sky's town games where she buckles down and really starts to think critically about the game. I haven't seen that at all here. She's just coasting

Like I think sky posts reactively a lot but when she's town there's usually a moment where she feels guilty about not doing anything and then starts to be proactive for a bit before she slides off into obscurity again. I've seen it after her being pushed before but she got to e-1 and she's still just lurking around

I would like you to prove your case here.
Is her current gameplay consistent with her scumplay, and atypical of her townplay? Provide a few of her games as evidence.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jackson, what do you think the relevance of your argument with Black is? Does it really even matter who is right?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Nah, I think this is scum!sky

I feel like there is usually a point in Sky's town games where she buckles down and really starts to think critically about the game. I haven't seen that at all here. She's just coasting

Like I think sky posts reactively a lot but when she's town there's usually a moment where she feels guilty about not doing anything and then starts to be proactive for a bit before she slides off into obscurity again. I've seen it after her being pushed before but she got to e-1 and she's still just lurking around

I would like you to prove your case here.
Is her current gameplay consistent with her scumplay, and atypical of her townplay? Provide a few of her games as evidence.

Will you read and compare those games?

Yes. I may not like constructing a meta case against someone, but I'd be willing to follow up on a meta case that I'm requesting.

[Jake The Wolfie]

[tab][/tab]

Does it really even matter who is right?

...yes? If I'm right, we don't mislim a town?

Supoose that you're right, that Skygazer is unlikely to fakeclaim neighbor.
How does this relate to her being town? She may be more likely to be town, yes, but as you yourself have shown with Jacob, unlikely things can and do happen.

[Jake The Wolfie]

This convo has felt like WIFOM, but both glasses are filled with ethanol diluted with sulfiric acid

[Jake The Wolfie]

Nah, I think this is scum!sky

I feel like there is usually a point in Sky's town games where she buckles down and really starts to think critically about the game. I haven't seen that at all here. She's just coasting

Like I think sky posts reactively a lot but when she's town there's usually a moment where she feels guilty about not doing anything and then starts to be proactive for a bit before she slides off into obscurity again. I've seen it after her being pushed before but she got to e-1 and she's still just lurking around

I would like you to prove your case here.
Is her current gameplay consistent with her scumplay, and atypical of her townplay? Provide a few of her games as evidence.

@Black

Do get to this when you have the chance.

[Jake The Wolfie]

This could be YOUR post! Just send a PM to Jake The Wolfie. That's J A K E, space, T H E, space, W O L F I E. Call now!

[Jake The Wolfie]

Get your rear into gear for I fear the hammer draws near, ya hear?

At this time of year??

[Jake The Wolfie]

I'd be willing to wagon Shadez.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I'd be willing to wagon Shadez.

I'm not sure I believe this

You've had like 2 days get off your vanity push of black that no one else seems interested in to add legitimacy to the shadow wagon by bringing it to 3 votes

What's your opinion of sky anyway

VOTE: Shaddowez

I haven't formed an opinion on Sky. My main focus for this day was getting Black out the door.

[Jake The Wolfie]

sky's claim is still sus imo.
i feel like a neighbor by self seems a bit too weird.
or maybe the mods are just trolling us. :shifty:
~o
p.s. this is me re-isoing sky.

I asked, and the mod confirmed that they would just have one neighbor in a PT

[Jake The Wolfie]

I feel like I'm in a bad position no matter what. I'm already run up, so if I hammer and Sky is town, chances are I either get vig shot (which would be

terrible

) or close to an auto-lim tomorrow.

If she's scum, since this many people are already pushing me, there's a bus argument.

I'm still reading, will try to post more later but may not be until tomorrow.

I will be your advocate for tommorrow if you show town progression in your thinking, but you'll need to show said progression.

[Jake The Wolfie]

9. With the exception of the changes that have already been announced, I will not make changes that meaningfully alter the function of a role. This applies even if the role has no effect. For example, encryptor can be rolled even though this game has global daytalk, and a mason or neighbour will get a PT by themself if only one is rolled.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Either way, the situation sucks and now you have paws instead of hands.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Aw cmon Dragon, Black wouldn't use an ax. She'd use a compact longbow.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Sigh

Black: I am putting in effort, it's silly to think scum me would get off sky it wouldn't do anything
Also Black: convinces people to vote Std by saying "more votes on std"

Wanna vote Black with me?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Sigh

Black: I am putting in effort, it's silly to think scum me would get off sky it wouldn't do anything
Also Black: convinces people to vote Std by saying "more votes on std"

Wanna vote Black with me?

Lol that is never happening

[Jake The Wolfie]

Hammer?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Hammer?

Why are you rushing a hammer?

I was asking if that was a hammer. Last I knew Shadez was at E-1

[Jake The Wolfie]

What an interesting wagon

[Jake The Wolfie]

Let me break it down

I'm either

A. Scum who cracked and panicked at the slightest bit of pressure because I've never played a single game of mafia in my life

Or

B. Tired from lack of sleep, wired from coffee to mitigate lack of sleep, stressed out and pissed off from work, hungry from skipping lunch, and annoyed at being scumread for ??? reasons when I am town.

Less votes on std please

I'll see yall tomorrow I'm gonna take a break

Welcome to the site, Dragons! I hope this game is going well for you so far.

[Jake The Wolfie]

What happened to the skygazer wagon

Gone, reduced to atoms.

[Jake The Wolfie]

What happened to the skygazer wagon

Gone, reduced to atoms.

I want to know your thoughts on players not named Black

Lately it seems like you are just popping in with these one-liners but not really helping move the game forward

The game is chugging along just fine, no?

[Jake The Wolfie]

What happened to the skygazer wagon

Gone, reduced to atoms.

I want to know your thoughts on players not named Black

Lately it seems like you are just popping in with these one-liners but not really helping move the game forward

The game is chugging along just fine, no?

Considering we can't reach a consensus, no, I don't think the game is chugging along just fine

Who would you compromise on if you can't get shaddow faded?

I think one part of the "chugging along" is the lack of consensus.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I think one part of the "chugging along" is the lack of consensus.

Why are you ignoring my questions

Are you accusing me of being a wolf here?

[Jake The Wolfie]

I think one part of the "chugging along" is the lack of consensus.

Why are you ignoring my questions

Are you accusing me of being a wolf here?

No

Will you answer my questions now?

Yes, and I was ignoring it because I wanted to spare your feelings, that of me compromising on you as a wagon.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Spoiler: VoteWall

3.06

Votecount 3.06

Skygazer (E-1): SirCakez, Argonauts, lucca261, Black
SirCakez (2): JacksonVirgo, Skygazer
Black (1): Jake The Wolfie
shaddowez (1): Save The Dragons

Not Voting (1): shaddowez

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-02-05 20:12:42).

3.07

Votecount 3.07

Skygazer (E-1): SirCakez, Argonauts, lucca261, Black
shaddowez (2): Save The Dragons, JacksonVirgo
SirCakez (1): Skygazer
Black (1): Jake The Wolfie

Not Voting (1): shaddowez

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-02-05 20:12:42).

3.08

Votecount 3.08

Skygazer (E-1): SirCakez, Argonauts, lucca261, Black
shaddowez (E-2): Save The Dragons, JacksonVirgo, Jake The Wolfie
SirCakez (1): Skygazer

Not Voting (1): shaddowez

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-02-05 20:12:42).

3.09

Votecount 3.09

shaddowez (E-1): Save The Dragons, JacksonVirgo, Jake The Wolfie, lucca261
Skygazer (2): SirCakez, Argonauts
SirCakez (1): Skygazer
Save The Dragons (1): Black

Not Voting (1): shaddowez

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-02-05 20:12:42).

3.10

Votecount 3.10

shaddowez (E-1): JacksonVirgo, Jake The Wolfie, lucca261, Save The Dragons
Save The Dragons (E-2): Black, Skygazer, Argonauts
Skygazer (1): SirCakez

Not Voting (1): shaddowez

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-02-05 20:12:42).

3.11

Votecount 3.11

shaddowez (E-2): JacksonVirgo, Jake The Wolfie, lucca261
Save The Dragons (E-2): Black, Skygazer, Argonauts
Skygazer (1): SirCakez

Not Voting (2): shaddowez, Save The Dragons

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-02-05 20:12:42).

3.12

Votecount 3.12

shaddowez (E-2): JacksonVirgo, Jake The Wolfie, lucca261
Skygazer (E-2): SirCakez, Argonauts, shaddowez
Save The Dragons (2): Black, Skygazer

Not Voting (1): Save The Dragons

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-02-05 20:12:42).

These VCs are quite interesting.

The Current Skygazer wagon is (or perhaps will be) composed of people who were on the Skygazer wagon the last time, while the current Shadez wagon is composed of people from other soruces. Also, it looks like the Skygazer wagon pretty much jumped ship onto Dragons (with the loss of Lucca), which is now sloshing between Dragons and Skygazer.

What do I make of it? Well, looking between VCs 3.08 and 3.09, we can see a shift in votes, where the new top wagon is Shadez and the previous wagon is starting to fall apart. This is also the first vote on the Dragons wagon. This indicates the first shift in votes away from Skygazer and onto Dragons. To me, it looks as though the wolves are fishing for an alternate wagon to Shadez here, though that wouldn't explain why they are sloshing between Skygazer and Dragons.
If I had to guess, it's to lend support for either wagon so that they can consolidate on a wagon later.

I'm currently thinking of a scum!Black and scum!Argon paring, I'll check the previous days to see if these trends hold any water.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jackson, you must be seeing this, right?

First Argon votes you, then Black.

They are following eachother's votes.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I am always on Team Skygazer

Unfortunately for you, the team what wants to vote you out

The hell does this mean if it wasn't

I believe that this means that Drew was on team "Let's vote Skygazer out", which they humorously labled as "Team Skygazer".

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jack needs to pick up his son, he's drunk.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Alright so what am I thinking now?

I don't know, Bilbo. What is in your pocket?

[Jake The Wolfie]

I think town!you is more open with your progression. I think you would post your doubts about me. I think scum!you holds back doing that because you're trying to pocket me all game

You saw in the last game that sometimes I townread people that townread me. I feel like you're using that against me this game

How would you go about demonstrating that Jackson might be pocketing you?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Nah, I think this is scum!sky

I feel like there is usually a point in Sky's town games where she buckles down and really starts to think critically about the game. I haven't seen that at all here. She's just coasting

Like I think sky posts reactively a lot but when she's town there's usually a moment where she feels guilty about not doing anything and then starts to be proactive for a bit before she slides off into obscurity again. I've seen it after her being pushed before but she got to e-1 and she's still just lurking around

I would like you to prove your case here.
Is her current gameplay consistent with her scumplay, and atypical of her townplay? Provide a few of her games as evidence.

@Black

Do get to this when you have the chance.

Sure. It probably won't be tonight. Feel free to look over her games yourself though

Also, you still haven't done this (to my knowledge)

[Jake The Wolfie]

Damnit Jackson, go to deep sleep already!

[Jake The Wolfie]

I think town!you is more open with your progression. I think you would post your doubts about me. I think scum!you holds back doing that because you're trying to pocket me all game

You saw in the last game that sometimes I townread people that townread me. I feel like you're using that against me this game

How would you go about demonstrating that Jackson might be pocketing you?

Nah, I think this is scum!sky

I feel like there is usually a point in Sky's town games where she buckles down and really starts to think critically about the game. I haven't seen that at all here. She's just coasting

Like I think sky posts reactively a lot but when she's town there's usually a moment where she feels guilty about not doing anything and then starts to be proactive for a bit before she slides off into obscurity again. I've seen it after her being pushed before but she got to e-1 and she's still just lurking around

I would like you to prove your case here.
Is her current gameplay consistent with her scumplay, and atypical of her townplay? Provide a few of her games as evidence.

@Black

Do get to this when you have the chance.

Sure. It probably won't be tonight. Feel free to look over her games yourself though

Also, you still haven't done this (to my knowledge)

@Black

, please answer these.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I am sorely dissapointed in you Cakez. You had every opportunity to ask this question at the beginning of the day, immediately after I came out and started pushing Jackson on a similar point.

[Jake The Wolfie]

You inspired me! What can I say

[Jake The Wolfie]

I feel good about my vote on Shadez. Unlike some other people, the people on the Shadez wagon have remained mostly resolute.

Unless the non-Shaditez can explain why they keep shifting their votes onto someone,

anyone

other than Shadez, I will leave my vote as is.

[Jake The Wolfie]

You should. It would do wonders to disassociate yourself from Shadez should they turn up rosy.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Why would hammering town do anything in regards to 'disassociating' with them? They'd be town, obviously there's no associations. And the game might be over tonight and it wouldn't even matter.

-Atalanta

Who said anything about hammering town? What brings them being town into this business?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Frankly I find Jake's shade here to be pretty bad. "Why won't you vote shaddowez omg guys, you're sus!" when shaddowez has been sitting on e-1 for quite a while is pretty lol. Has Jake even asked what we think about shaddowez, or looked into what we've done or said with the slot earlier? Guess not. I'd probably have been voting shaddowez too at some point today if not for the fact that he's been at e-1 when I've felt like moving my vote.

-Atalanta

If you looked at my recent posts and took away that I was complaining that Shadez has failed to die yet, you would have missed that I was implying that the scum were trying to find a resonant counter-wagon to their supposed scumbud Shadez.

To clarify like Drew hath clarified to Jackson:

I find it suspicious and scummy that there's way more movement on non-Shadez wagons than on Shadez, as it's generally a scum tactic to try and save their partners whenever possible.