Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Cerulean]

Haven't had a chance to talk to Tammy yet about pgs. 2-3, but I'm gonna...

VOTE: absta101

I think he's bullshitting his Equinox townread in #48. Equinox never explained her sudden vote switch onto him in #26 at the time he unvoted (which is the time he presumably would have picked up the read) so I really don't see how he's townreading her just off of that.

Piggy wagon is fine. Her reaction to getting voted in #16 is awkward and her answer to Thor's question about why she brought up the V/LA in the first place (#23) is contrived and the fact that she over-explains the answer to what seems to me a simple question reads a bit like panicked defensiveness to me. #39 is also a pretty awkward reaction.

The early back-and-forth between Voided and Thor struck me as off but apparently Voided making RVS banter is his thing so nevermind.

I think N is town mostly for his meta reference line of questioning of Piggy on page 1 and the way he breaks down Piggy's logic in #23.

More to come~

[Cerulean]

Are you familiar at all with Piggy's town game?

Our Piggy meta research is still ongoing. We've read two of her scum games (namely this one and this one) and they suggest she's playing to her scum meta here (re: the awkwardness in her posting/reactions), but she has a recently finished town game I want to dig into.

Voided, do you have any thoughts on the Piggy wagon thus far? It's kind of weird that you comment on absta but not that Piggy wagon you essentially kick started.

[Cerulean]

Remind me how by reading only scum games you become aware of someone's scum meta.
I slept through that part of class.

That's why I said that the games so far

suggest

she's playing to her scum meta, i.e, it's not fully conclusive and the research is still ongoing.

Did you sleep through the part of class where they taught you how to read?

P-Edit: lmao

[Cerulean]

I'm in agreement with my other head that N looks town based on his piggy questioning. I don't agree with Thor that it was a misrep, a misinterpretation maybe but his motivation looked like genuinely trying to determine piggy's thought process.

Also piggy's Post 23 did come off contrived and a bit over explained for such a simple question; however a game piggy and I were in together just finished this morning, so now I know that piggy has a tendency to start her town games a bit awkwardly. Empire and I had looked at piggy's scum games, as I had been loosely following along with reversed anyway, and had read the game she was nominated for. But what I cared most about was the game that ended this morning. Post 20 reads really genuine though.

I hate the "for now" in absta's Post 25 . Trying to determine if it's personality though. Don't like how he unvotes without revoting, but his "what" in Post 35 reads fairly genuine.

Thor - Did you not notice that other head said she had a recently completed town game that he wanted to read of piggy's? That game just ended this afternoon.

Voided - you say there have Ben no attempts to find the scum on her wagon, but piggy did say in Post 16 who was scum on her wagon and why. It might be a little flimsy but it's still an attempt.

Thor - if you don't learn how to play nicely, I will sit you two on opposite sides of the room and take your hammer away from you. You say that my other head was reactively offensive to you, but you fail to acknowledge that you claimed that you were fitting him with a dunce cap. Thor, I expect more from you, you have two scummies and should know better

Also Thor regarding your question to piggy in Post 75 would you say your playstyle is largely different as town than scum?

Sixty - who made the case in Post 79 ? Please and thank you.

Strongest town read remains N. Leaning town on Piggy and Thor

but he has two scummies so I can't be sure

.

I really want to vote sixty right now as that case they just made looks pretty contrived and pushing for an easy mislynch. I need to talk to the other head about that though.

~Tammy

[Cerulean]

Thor - if you don't learn how to play nicely, I will sit you two on opposite sides of the room and take your hammer away from you. You say that my other head was reactively offensive to you, but you fail to acknowledge that you claimed that you were fitting him with a dunce cap. Thor, I expect more from you, you have two scummies and should know better

There is a difference between offense 'giving insult' and offense 'attacking' last I checked.
Are you denying the immediate attack to an otherwise normal question?

I see someone who said they had read scum meta and had a town game they wanted to dig into, then you claim they weren't doing things properly because they were only reading scum games (even though they said they were going to read a town game) and that you were fitting them with a dunce cap. You were a bit insulting, and people don't like to be insulted. I see him reacting to that.

It wasn't a normal question, and I think if you read it objectively you'll see how you provoked him and how he responded to you in kind. You were being a bit condescending, you know you were, if you're honest with yourself.

Also Thor regarding your question to piggy in Post 75 would you say your playstyle is largely different as town than scum?

Since I actively try to emulate my town play as scum - none that I am aware of...also none that anyone has ever been able to show me, because then I would have adjusted. I've never had to adjust.

Then what's the point of the question?

Strongest town read remains N

Why?

And you prove once again that you're not reading entire posts. In the beginning I agreed with my other head about his line of questioning to piggy. It reads to us as genuinely trying to determine her thought process.

What do you think a out sixty's case on piggy?

[Cerulean]

I'm going to respond here cuz it's easier.

Don't care if you're condescending to me...your big ego can talk to my big ego and have a party. I do know what he was saying because he talked to me about it. He read her scum meta, we both did, and he said it was similar. I told him that it was possible a game we were just in together was about to end and that she behaved similarly there too. It did end today, which is the game he wants to read, in which she was town.

Did you read what he said? It is why he said "suggests" because even though it was similar, I had pointed out a possible town game that showed a similarity of her behavior.

So, would you like to go back and read the part of the post you missed? Namely that he's planning on completing the task your chiding him for not doing and tht he made that clear?


If you believe your town and sum game are indistinguishable I'd like to know what purpose it serves to ask someone if they think you're playing any differently than you did in your other game.

Did you miss the part where I'm leaning town on you?

Because it did. Read genuine to me. Lots of people jumped on the wagon, but he seemed to try to determine her thought process.

Oh no, I read, I was hoping you'd go into a bit more detail about what you actually liked about it.

[Cerulean]

Voided - what do you think about sixty's case on piggy?

[Cerulean]

Voided - you say there have Ben no attempts to find the scum on her wagon, but piggy did say in Post 16 who was scum on her wagon and why. It might be a little flimsy but it's still an attempt.

Fine, there was an attempt in the early stages, but as I said, that's pretty much all she tries prior to me saying she hasn't done anything. Now, I'm not trying to say that my attack in that regard spurred her to post (though it'd be slightly funny and more incriminating for her if that's true), but any good analysis (or attempted analysis) is still hard to find there.

You seem a little more uptight than I'm used to.

[Cerulean]

Cerulean why meta search piggy, but not absta who you're voting right now? Artemis Fowl micro would be a start. It'd also show similar play in just acting.i

Piggy was a topic of conversation because we'd both read a scum game of hers and had eh feelings about her early posts. I'd also played with piggy in the game that just ended, which is the only type of meta I really take seriously. But I'm sure other head will research absta's meta in time.

[Cerulean]

I didn't know her alignment in that game until this afternoon. We were not spoiled in the qt, so I couldn't be sure she was town. So, while we discussed this game and talked about piggy, I told him that there was a possibility it was matching her town game but wouldn't know for sure until this game ended.

~Tammy (it's been Tammy since my first signed post this evening.)

[Cerulean]

Thor - you're vote is bad.

He said he had a town game he wanted to dig into in Post 64. That is the recently completed town game he references that he wants to dig into.

Please read.

[Cerulean]

Did you read what he said? It is why he said "suggests" because even though it was similar, I had pointed out a possible town game that showed a similarity of her behavior.

I personally think you're trying to get me to put more meaning into that 'suggests' than there really is.
Counter question, if by 'suggests' he means 'We have yet to have done anything to make the read legit' why even mention it at all?

So, would you like to go back and read the part of the post you missed? Namely that he's planning on completing the task your chiding him for not doing and tht he made that clear?

Hey Thor! Hi! How ya doin? When you get done licking your little boy wounds, us grown ups are going to actually be looking for scum. Care to join us?

If you believe your town and sum game are indistinguishable I'd like to know what purpose it serves to ask someone if they think you're playing any differently than you did in your other game.

I already answered this - what part didn't you grok?

I thought it was a stupid question? If you think you're town and scum game are indistinguishable its leading and u productive. You're trying to jump on someone, howl and whine. That's obvious. I want you to stop doing it because it doesn't help town.

Did you miss the part where I'm leaning town on you?

And less than N, yes.

So, your ego is fractured? You may not remember but you've fooled me before. I read you town as hell when you replaced into experimental; I don't easily forget being duped. I'm reading you different enough that you're leaning town, but most town...he'll no.

Oh no, I read, I was hoping you'd go into a bit more detail about what you actually liked about it.

I actually accused him of sheeping me slightly, so...?

I realize that you like being sheeped...take off your Sheeping blinders and tell me what you think of their case.

[Cerulean]

^^^was tammy

[Cerulean]

Link the game pl0x.

The game that ended today? http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4471519

[Cerulean]

One other question to ceru being why argue so much with thor who's a town lean like that?

Thors a lean town read. I get my best reads from interaction, and thors fooled me before. I'm leaning town on him, but we can argue to make sure. Besides once he realizes we're town, if he's town as I think, it will make it that much easier for town to work together and win.

[Cerulean]

Empire didn't like at all voided's banter with thor in the beginning of the game, but I linked him to kingdom hearts which I had played with voided and he interacted in a similar way, so ithi he just likes rvs. But he's got a rather uptight play.

And we both are wary of equinox.

Right now my biggest suspects are equinox/voided/sixty

[Cerulean]

Meh your read on voided was fine. I didn't like how uptight he felt in Post 88.

I have little experience with equinox but empire left me a message that equinox was his backpocket scum read. She just feels off.

But sixty...read that case.

Actually I'm not waiting...

VOTE: sixty.

This is a righteousness wagon.

[Cerulean]

I cant wait for Tuesday when Oversoul starts posting so I can get a clearer read of that slot, btw.

[Cerulean]

And yet you make not one comment on sixty or their case on piggy even though you say she's coming off as more honest. Why is that?

[Cerulean]

And ceru os is v/la so what does that actually mean? I won't vote til he shows up since I want to hear from him first.

~Mehdi

It means that I'm leaning town on your slot, but I cant wait for Oversoul to start posting to be sure. I've played with Oversoul and we were team mafia teammates, so I feel like once he starts posting I can get a more solid read of your slot.

~tammy

[Cerulean]

Equinox - why are you townreading Thor?

[Cerulean]

P-edit: It's a secondary reason for absta. Do you think both scum bussing is likely in a white flag set up (well with the extra black rules).i

Probably not. Well, we only have to find two if them. If I have time tomorrow, I'll see if I can find what someone posted in the team mafia white flag game for strategy. I feel like there was something. Oversoul played I. That game though so he might remember.

[Cerulean]

Eh...equinox ran the team mafia white flag game. I'm just disappointed in no read of sixty. I know a little of equinox as temperance I think who is decent at reading people, so...idk. My other head has cruel experience playing with equinox though.

[Cerulean]

* cruel experience should read actual experience

[Cerulean]

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you saying that since people are pushing absta it makes him more likely town?

Idk...it's late and I should probably go to bed.

But everyone should read that sixty case on piggy and vote sixty afterward. We've got back rubs and vodka and cookies and cake and wine aboard the sixty train. All aboard!!!

[Cerulean]

I'm saying his way of responding to me on absta feels town and basically asking what you think there.

~Mehdi

Are you referring to equinox? If you are, other head left me a message that her responses remind him of their town game together that she referenced and doesn't suspect her anymore. I also agree that her responses seem to come from a town mindset.

[Cerulean]

Counter question, if by 'suggests' he means 'We have yet to have done anything to make the read legit' why even mention it at all?

Because it was on his mind? I don't know. Some people are more transparent and show their work more than others, and the piggy situation was the one thing that we had really discussed.

I thought it was a stupid question? If you think you're town and scum game are indistinguishable its leading and u productive. You're trying to jump on someone, howl and whine. That's obvious. I want you to stop doing it because it doesn't help town.

I don't know how else to explain to you that it's not an attack to howl and whine (because, let's be honest, I'd admit it if all I wanted to do was make the other player feel derp) but rather a question to seek motivation.
Why is this so hard for you?
Why can you understand other motivation questions but not this one?

Well I know. You'd be calling it derp derp derp until smurfette knocked on your door, but it didn't look to me like a motivation question.

It's not hard for me to understand at all, and I didn't mean to derail your conversation with piggy, but I was trying to understand your motivation for a question which didn't seem like it would have a useful conversation given that I don't think (and you don't either) that your scum and town games are all that different.

So, your ego is fractured? You may not remember but you've fooled me before. I read you town as hell when you replaced into experimental; I don't easily forget being duped. I'm reading you different enough that you're leaning town, but most town...he'll no.

So I'm a lesser town read than N because, even though I'm doing more townish things I concern you more?

OBVIOUSLY!!!

you have two scummies

. Why does it matter that you're not gold star town in my eyes? Especially when I've said more than once that I don't think your town and scum game is all that different and you've fooled me as scum before? (if I'm right here, there is a slight difference I've noted). But it doesn't matter if you've done more townish things when you say, essentially, you'd do these things as scum. I'm not ready to lynch you over it, but I'm going to be a little extra cautious considering I've been duped before and all.

I realize that you like being sheeped...take off your Sheeping blinders and tell me what you think of their case.

You've asked me this before.
I LIKE THE BULK OF THE CASE.
Does it sink through now?

I know you liked the case. I wanted to know what about it made you like it. I wanted a little more detail.

~tammy

[Cerulean]

Hurm. Looking over stuff Cerulean is actually obv. town unless Piggy is scum.
Cerulean can still answer my questions though because the slot strikes me as pedantic and it will amuse me.

Pedantic? PFFT. I'm not sure if i prefer being thought of as pedantic or an overbearing, crazy bitch.

[Cerulean]

I feel like I'm talking to a wall here.

Well I know. You'd be calling it derp derp derp until smurfette knocked on your door, but it didn't look to me like a motivation question.

It's not hard for me to understand at all, and I didn't mean to derail your conversation with piggy, but I was trying to understand your motivation for a question which didn't seem like it would have a useful conversation given that I don't think (and you don't either) that your scum and town games are all that different.

1. I've even flat out explained the motivation behind the question.
2. I've also flat out explained how whether or not I think there's a difference in my meta doesn't change the purpose of the question.
3. Get your other head to look at it, if they can't grok it either then I'll bother to explain it again.

So, you have...my bad

I know you liked the case. I wanted to know what about it made you like it. I wanted a little more detail.

I'll try again.
I said the case was a sheep of mine for the most part and that I liked it. I'm not sure how much clearer I can get then by saying I felt the case was sheepy to where I was going...I mean, that's a pretty intense call.
For anything else you better ask a more pointed and specific question.

I don't think I've ever called you overbearing.
You're assuredly pedantic.

Bleh...I don't like the case. I think it reads intensely shallow, but I'm going to comment on it specifically in a bit, and I wanted you to say something more than "seems cool Brainy smurf". As I was trying to round out my read on you as well.

No you havent called me overbearing, someone's whose posts you'll fall asleep while reading, but not overbearing. Though I have been called overbearing. I was just determining what matter of insult I preferred.

What is the newcomer going on about?

[Cerulean]

P-edit: It's a secondary reason for absta. Do you think both scum bussing is likely in a white flag set up (well with the extra black rules).

Not to me, I don't think, but I'd wager that its still likely that scum would bus. If there are people who have a history of hard bussing in the 5p Vengefuls, I think its entirely possible they'd do the same in this game since Lylo is basically like a vengeful where both scum are the GF.
."

Who do you think is bussing right now?

[Cerulean]

I'm not confident in my Voided read at all. I've been so wrong about him before.

How do you go from being not confident to being confident enough to vote him by his 5th post in ISo a few posts later?

[Cerulean]

Oh okay, I now understand Thor's line of questioning with soul.

[Cerulean]

Hey voided - I know you don't want your rep to be writes tons of walls or spam responses, but your responses to things are falling pretty flat. Like you're not really engaged but are trying to keep busy.

[Cerulean]

Let's lynch Absta or Voided.

Or Sixty!

[Cerulean]

I don't really care for the argument between Cerulean and Thor665, as it looks more to be out of ego than alignment.

Noting this for now.

You should! I'm sure it will be useful for the future.

Equinox - why are you townreading Thor?

Liked how Thor665 pressured PiggyGal15 earlier. There's also some notion about Thor665 maybe not getting into an ego war because why take offense at someone doing something silly when it doesn't concern him and those posts didn't come off contrived, but I think I need to verify that I'm not doing bogus psychoanalysis first.

Cerulean why didn't you respond to this answer to your question?

Oh gosh! I forgot my manners. Thank you equinox for answering my question.

Why are you asking me this question? Did you think it needed further probing? Did you not think the answer to the question was sufficient? Did you not understand the motivation for the question? Help me out here.

Why aren't you asking better questions? And why in this entire wall post did you not mention anything about sixty?

[Cerulean]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jesse
That post was just... horrid. Really really horrid. So there's 7 pages now, and all you're doing is reiterating what's already been said, just phrased slightly differently?
Love how you bring up me talking about RVS out of RVS almost double the posts later - while we've been out of RVS for quite some time. Very very interesting indeed.

That whole post looks like you're trying to be active while not really doing anything at all.

p-edit - the fact that you're still not saying what's worth noting in that quote just makes me all the more sure you just posted that to make yourself look busy and active.

This post owns.

[Cerulean]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jesse
That post was just... horrid. Really really horrid. So there's 7 pages now, and all you're doing is reiterating what's already been said, just phrased slightly differently?
Love how you bring up me talking about RVS out of RVS almost double the posts later - while we've been out of RVS for quite some time. Very very interesting indeed.

That whole post looks like you're trying to be active while not really doing anything at all.

p-edit - the fact that you're still not saying what's worth noting in that quote just makes me all the more sure you just posted that to make yourself look busy and active.

Actually they were pretty specific questions that I'd love to get the answer to. And I just had to point out how disingenuous you were being about wanting to get out of RVS so bad and trying to get out of it and never look back. As for me, I don't care either way. Active lurking blah blah blah... like three posts into this game. Chill.

She didn't accuse you of active lurking. She accused you of trying to appear active while actually contributing nothing of importance. There's a difference.

Equinox - why are you townreading Thor?

One other question to ceru being why argue so much with thor who's a town lean like that?

Thors a lean town read. I get my best reads from interaction, and thors fooled me before. I'm leaning town on him, but we can argue to make sure. Besides once he realizes we're town, if he's town as I think, it will make it that much easier for town to work together and win.

I think that answers her own question fine.

Okay that's pretty much what I thought, you didn't really follow that.

In post 120 Cerulean asked Equinox why he had a town read on Thor, when really he said:

I don't really care for the argument between Cerulean and Thor665, as it looks more to be out of ego than alignment. The Empire head sounds like town; I might dig deeper to see if he has any scum games, but his posts so far are reminiscent of Micro 53, which is good. Thor665 might be town, but take that with a grain of salt. Actually, now that I think about it, it might be worth a look to see if Thor665 gets into ego wars as scum. Agree that N's probably town.

which
1. Is a null read not a town read.
2. Is a really good way of throwing in his opinion that the Cerulean/Thor argument is town/town without explicitly saying so. And which is a really good way of covering a scum buddy's back when they're getting attacked without explicitly doing it. And which is a really good way of going back and saying oh hey we weren't buddies because I just said he sooounds like town, not that he is town... without explicitly stating that.

So then Equinox answered Cerulean's inquiry about why he had a town read on Thor, but Cerulean never acknowledged Equinox's explanation (even though he specifically probed for it). Which in my opinion is a great way of prodding a scum buddy to maybe explain something a little bit that they think they might be missing or looking bad on. And not answering that commentary is a good way of getting it out there and dropping it without buddying up. Considering its about Thor, who in my opinion is pretty much the "lead town" player, it would be great for both Cerulean and Equinox if they were scum to look and get that player on their side. Or at least not against them. And also considering Cerulean's been doing quite a bit of playing nice with Thor.

Wow...are you a runner? Cuz if you are, you can probably run twice your normal distance after that stretch.

Also, when I'm playing nice with someone they don't usually call me pedantic.

I feel like there's a buzzword for what you're doing here whatisitcalled? Whatisitcalled? Whatisitcalled?

Also, have you comments on sixty Yet? If not, why not?

[Cerulean]

Thor: That's more of a commentary on the style of play he's exhibiting, which ties into why I think he's clueless.

Vote: Cerulean

Wondering if Cerulean will actually respond now...

Probably not until the point in time of the game that I get to your question.

[Cerulean]

@Cerulean - of course the case is shallow, it's built off RVS, how magical and deep can it really get? What does it being shallow have to do with anything? The question is whether or not it makes sense and shows scumhunting motivation from Sixty and scummy motivation from Piggy.

Shallow means I don't think they were actually assessing piggy's motivations. Why would you build a case so son out of rvs without actually trying to determine alignment? Cases make sense all the time, but the case doesn't show Scumhunting motivation from my point of view, rather it shows determination to appear as if scumhunting.

[Cerulean]

What is the newcomer going on about?

I see you're going to be fun to play with. Although I can't possibly understand the superiority complex you seem to have taken upon yourself given your play so far in this game.

I'm

almost

always fun to play with. But you know what? You're cute. Tell you what...867-5309...shhh...don't tell anyone.

I don't have a superiority complex, but hmmm, let's *looks at the votes* you're not really one to talk when you're vote's sitting on town...for demonstrating a superiority complex? K.

What are your thoughts on sixty? Why did your catchup post avoid making any comments on most of the players?

[Cerulean]

Bleh...I don't like the case. I think it reads intensely shallow, but I'm going to comment on it specifically in a bit, and I wanted you to say something more than "seems cool Brainy smurf". As I was trying to round out my read on you as well.

This we

must

see. ...eventually, after you’re done stirring up enmity

ponies

.

I'm not spreading enmity. Why is it every time a girl shows some assertiveness it gets twisted to hostility?

I'm not sure if i prefer being thought of as pedantic or an overbearing, crazy bitch.

Hey, we

resemble

that remark.

[Cerulean]

Tammy: Stop bitching at others please and thank you. Between Thor and Jesse, you're already making this game a painful drag. It's one thing to try and rile people up to figure out alignments, but at this stage it feels like you're pointlessly hamming it up.

You're so awesome.

[Cerulean]

Did you see that v/la post

[from Soul2277]

? Holy crap guys! Scum has seriously been caught!

(jk UNVOTE: )
I understand N bandwagoning, he likes bandwagons, but Equinox didn't even put a silly sentance in there to make me feel better about being brought to L-2 on page 1
VOTE: Equinox
Clearly a lazy band-wagoning scum looking for an easy lynch.

Because going v/la is a null tell, so I was joking about it being a scummy-as-hell tell ^.^

(seriously though, votes on Equinox are good votes)

Here we see that the V/LA thing was a joke (she was voting Soul2277 as RVS), and she shifts to Equinox.

I brought up the v/la as a means to end my RVS while letting things stay in RVS because I know things are going to stay in RVS even when things actually get serious. It happens. It's why I don't like RVS, because even when it obviously come to an end, new players that haven't posted yet still look to RVS to join in the conversation - so it was a way to let the other 5ish people come in without feeling the need to awkwardly stay in RVS - call my logic flawed, but when you know something is inevitable, it's best just to give in and join their side - which I get a feeling will become my lynch very soon :/

This no longer sounds like a joke; she changed her story. If it was a joke, why a) so much explanation and b) is she trying to make others comfortable? There is no Town motivation in helping others find their feet during RVS.

Where is the scum motivation. I mean I hate to be a drag and make this game a pain in the ass, and bitch at you about it, but this is really weak.

D'aw <3 L-1 already? I feel da loves <3

My wagon is wonderful <3 I think there's at least one scum on it

No analysis; calling one scum on the wagon and not bothering to deconstruct it is a lazy attempt to show work. She is hoping the pressure will go away if she seems disinterested on the wagon, but she is not trying to scumhunt. This continues here:

Lawl, don't worry bout my meta, seriously, I can self meta for you right here - I'm a lazy-troll as town and a slightly-inclined-but-still-lazy-troll as scum, basically, there's no difference in my play (as of recent) and meta'ing me is just a waste of time.

[snip]

Voided's town, Thor's scaring me with his laid-backness, absta is just being scummy, and I still don't like dogs.

1) PiggyGal's description of her own meta is false. Meta was one of the main tools we used to read her as scum in xudeR aifaM esreveR. This might be obliviousness to her own meta, but we have trouble believing she really thinks her Town/scum meta is indistinguishable when she just came out of a game where she was pinned accurately as scum on meta.
2) absta101 is scummy, yet deserves no vote. She sees him gather suspicion, but is more concerned elsewhere. The question is where, which leads to:
3) Where is Equinox in this post?
4) Note that she is not analyzing her own wagon:

Vote Count

• PiggyGal15 (4)
  : Voidedmafia Thor665 N Equinox
  
• absta101 (2)
  : Cerulean Sixty
  
• Equinox (1)
  : PiggyGal15
  
• Not voting:
  JesseSheffield Soul2277 absta101

Deadline: Sun 25 Nov, 00:05 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2012-11-25 00:05:00)

)

With 10 alive it is 6 to lynch.

She starts with Voidedmafia and Thor, ignores N and Equinox, mentions absta and does nothing about it, and we are scummy in some undisclosed form. Why those four players in particular?

Okay, so here is where I really start to have a big problem with this case. You say that meta was a part of your case. I'm assuming you're referring to reversed mafia are you not? I followed that game and re-red your case when you brought it up. In that case you said that piggy was not competent at either alignment. So, you acknowledge that as town she's not competent, and then you chide her for not deconstructing her wagon immediately, which is something that I've only rarely seen in a game, even though she did single out one person for being scum on her wagon and give a reason why. As I said to voided, it was flimsy, but it was still a reason. You're acting like there is none, and that you're familiar with her meta, which according to you is incompetent but then expecting her to be competent.

It looks to me like you are going for an easy mislynch. Your entire case is weak and I'm wondering why you made a case so early in the game, especially before you tried to ascertain motivations. To me it looks like you are trying to assign an alignment to piggy rather than find out what her true alignment is.

Feel free to bitch at me all you want and make it perfectly clear how much you'd prefer it if I weren't in the game. It's not going to change my opinion of your alignment. Seeing you act like town, interested in finding mafia, is what I'm looking for. That I'm not seeing.

[Thor's]

laid backness scares me because since when are you so lax? o.O In fact, UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thor
call me paranoid, but you're posts are giving me scum chills.

No word on Equinox and no effective action regarding absta101 or us.

Unvote: absta101
Vote: PiggyGal15

(L-1)

I don't get the point. What is the scum motivation to give a scum read to Thor?

[Cerulean]

(Did we really say that fifth sentence?)

Yes, you did.

More from me later. Still doing stuff.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Tammy: Stop bitching at others please and thank you. Between Thor and Jesse, you're already making this game a painful drag. It's one thing to try and rile people up to figure out alignments, but at this stage it feels like you're pointlessly hamming it up.

So, did you really just stop in here to toss a little insult my way, and not actually do anything with the game itself. It really sucks you drew a scum pm this game. (I suppose the response to the case could be you, but you have a good memory and would remember writing something in a case so I'm guessing not.). There was no town purpose to this post at all, no matter what way you try to dress it up.

[Cerulean]

Tierce, I already talked to Tammy about trying not to get into fights. I'm with you 100% that all it does is bog the thread down in meaningless bullshit. That's a part of why I backed off from this thread for a bit -- Thor's comments really pissed me off because I hate being condescended to. I didn't want to get into a spar with him because it was going to cloud my abilities for this game and, even worse, cloud the thread.

I didn't come here for any bullshit drama. I came here to play mafia with what I believe to be a great roster. So let's just cut this out now.

(I still think you're scum, though.)

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

I wasn't posting at you specifically. It was a more generalized comment about the state of the game.

And my post was serious.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Tammy, let's see if I can get my point across.

You came into this game and started being hostile toward Thor and toward Jesse. You were not being assertive, you were being insulting, which becomes even more jarring when you explain your hydra partner's reaction to an insult as a natural reaction. As I said before, it's one thing to try and rile players up for reactions. But scum will also be offended over matters that have nothing to do with alignment. If you call someone stupid, if you act condescendingly toward someone--people will be irked no matter their alignment. As scumhunting tools go, it's quite flawed and damages the game in general because it tends to spill all over the thread.

I didn't say anything as you pushed first Thor and then Jesse, because I know that's what you do and that it can help you read people. However, I also know that you can put up an hostile front as scum, whether or not it's real anger. My issue is that I don't see you taking any definite conclusions from these back and forths. I see you arguing just to argue, and that is a scummy behavior and makes the game unfun for everyone.

I've been restraining myself. My hydra partner is one of my favorite players, and it's fun to play the puppy persona, so I'm trying to focus on the positive aspects of this game. There was no word on my feelings about playing with you, so why do you feel the need to bring that up?

I'm not trying to be hostile, I'm trying to get you to please tone it down. SpyreX asked this of you on Maf.Maiden, you kept doing it--I don't know how effective this request is, but I know you

can

and have done it before, so please try to be less argumentative for argument's sake.

Actually I'm not even being hostile. I'm fine; am I asking questions and pushing some buttons, yeah. You bring up mafia behind the maiden and that was a very different game in a very different time in my life. I probably shouldn't have played mafia this summer as much of the crap that had been going on bled into the game. It resolved itself near the end of the game.

Did I push back with Thor? Yes, it's pretty much the only way you can try to determine his alignment. If you let him he'll just run you over and tell you what he wants you to believe his alignment is and what you should think about everyone. I have a leaning town read on Thor from our interaction. I think our interaction was mostly continued as he was trying to get a read on me.

Jesse is, well, Jesse's special. I had a scum read on him for his first post, but then he wrote about feeling salty about Thor lynching him day one when Thor was scum. That read town to Empire, so I'm not sure. I also was a bit swayed by his start date, but then I looked at his number of posts and he only has 342, which means he's not as experienced as I originally thought, so the jury's out. He seems like he's trying, but I'll have to see what he brings next. He didn't answer my question though about why I didn't respond to a question that was answered sufficiently, which just reads weird considering he came up with a long drawn out theory for why I asked a question and didn't follow up.

Let's see if I can illustrate what I'm talking about:

Hey Thor! Hi! How ya doin? When you get done licking your little boy wounds, us grown ups are going to actually be looking for scum. Care to join us?

What is the newcomer going on about?

These two cross a line. Yes, they are not as aggressive as some other players, and they are not breaking any rules, but it's not helping. You're being demeaning.

Thor seemed insulted I wasn't considering him the towniest person here.

Jesse had just shown up today and voted me for not answering a question or something like that. I had no idea what he was talking about.

I don't really care for the argument between Cerulean and Thor665, as it looks more to be out of ego than alignment.

Noting this for now.

You should! I'm sure it will be useful for the future.

This seems out of line, as I've seen you note things and make quote walls for future reference. Why does Jesse deserve this level of sarcasm?

Okay maybe this is. Struck me as odd.

Equinox - why are you townreading Thor?

Liked how Thor665 pressured PiggyGal15 earlier. There's also some notion about Thor665 maybe not getting into an ego war because why take offense at someone doing something silly when it doesn't concern him and those posts didn't come off contrived, but I think I need to verify that I'm not doing bogus psychoanalysis first.

Cerulean why didn't you respond to this answer to your question?

Oh gosh! I forgot my manners. Thank you equinox for answering my question.

What is the newcomer going on about?

I see you're going to be fun to play with. Although I can't possibly understand the superiority complex you seem to have taken upon yourself given your play so far in this game.

I'm

almost

always fun to play with. But you know what? You're cute. Tell you what...867-5309...shhh...don't tell anyone.

I don't have a superiority complex, but hmmm, let's *looks at the votes* you're not really one to talk when you're vote's sitting on town...for demonstrating a superiority complex? K.

Why are you being like this? It seems you have some sort of vendetta against Jesse. You've been demeaning toward him from the moment he started posting.

He was demeaning to me and I responded with a joke. I don't know Jesse; I don't have a vendetta towards anyone.

Why are you buddying Jesse?

Oh my strong town read on N is gone. I saw him posting today elsewhere and he didn't show up here.

[Cerulean]

Voided

Where are you getting that I implied soul was buddying Jesse?

Did I ask why my number one scum read, sixty, was buddying Jesse? Yep! That's not an implication, that's my interpretation of their post and behavior concerning Jesse.

[Cerulean]

Jesse is, well, Jesse's special. I had a scum read on him for his first post, but then he wrote about feeling salty about Thor lynching him day one when Thor was scum. That read town to Empire, so I'm not sure. I also was a bit swayed by his start date, but then I looked at his number of posts and he only has 342, which means he's not as experienced as I originally thought, so the jury's out. He seems like he's trying, but I'll have to see what he brings next. He didn't answer my question though about why I didn't respond to a question that was answered sufficiently, which just reads weird considering he came up with a long drawn out theory for why I asked a question and didn't follow up.

Whoops, wrong. If you’d looked a little deeper you’d have realized I’ve never played with Thor on this account which means I played him on an alt. I’ve got three other alts and I’ve been here since 2008 sooo... that just got awkward. And if you’re going to act like an ass to me what do you really think the chances are I’m going to answer a non-serious question. Also, point out where I got demeaning towards you first... because that definitely never happened. You can't act like that and then expect anyone who's been here for a while be like "oh wtf I've never run across anyone act like this before this is outrageous and I'm going to throw a temper tantrum and play to his game". It doesn't work like that.

Getting a scum read off someone from their very first post... that sounds like a really solid strategy and if you have no idea what I’m talking about maybe you can go read a little harder because it didn’t seem like anyone else had any difficulty understanding.

Wow. Okay, so you are not new. Then what's with you expecting a sort of kumbaya game? And how come you're not actually reading people's alignments.

My question was 100% serious, so what was the point of your question to me then?

If you got offended because I asked the newcomer thing, I really have no clue. You voted for me for not answering a question. I had no idea what you were going on about. And now that I am through the thread, I'm even more flabbergasted. It was quite obvious I was responding to things as going along and you tried to make it look like I was ignoring you.

You're acting all butthurt because I wondered what the person whose posts I hadn't read yet was going on about by voting for me because I hadn't responded to something I hadn't read yet? You insulted my play, you might want to remember that.

Now you're behaving badly. I never insulted you. Was I a bit snarky, sure. A little rude, maybe. But I didn't insult you. Sure it's possible to get a scum read on someone from their first post, just like its possible to get a town read. I don't know where the problem is there.

[Cerulean]

Also, when I'm playing nice with someone they don't usually call me pedantic.

What does me being rude do to affect a claim that you're playing nice?

It seems an odd claim to make. If you're playing nice with someone, you tend not to do things that will warrant you getting called things like pedantic as it demonstrates you're doing things to get on the persons nerves or making them not think well of you, which is kind of the opposite thing you're going for when playing nice.

Shallow means I don't think they were actually assessing piggy's motivations. Why would you build a case so son out of rvs without actually trying to determine alignment? Cases make sense all the time, but the case doesn't show Scumhunting motivation from my point of view, rather it shows determination to appear as if scumhunting.

How does it show the appearance of scumhunting but not scumhunting?

[/quote]

It doesn't look to be assessing motivations or alignment. It's more here's what this post says and it's scummy, but not does this post demonstrate scum or scum motivation.

[Cerulean]

Thor, Tammy's out all day today, so unfortunately we haven't been able to get together and mull over your question but we will as soon as she comes back.

Anyway, regarding Voided, it's no secret we've had a scumread on him for a while now as I believe Tammy mentioned earlier. Rereading his ISO, this post stood out for me the most. He basically tries to cast his net wide, shedding suspicion on a number of people while taking no actual affirmative stance on anything. It's something I've seen scum do relatively often to give their reads an air of legitimacy while at the same time opportunistically opening themselves up to the possibility of jumping on any one of a number of wagons (hey Vi and Tierce, remember this post?). Might definitely want to consider moving our vote there.

#82 is kind of shitty too as it reads like he's really reaching for reasons to FoS Piggy.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

EBWOP: Should be #88 there, not 82, sorry.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Erm, Tammy calls a Voided/you/Equinox scumteam #108. Equinox posts her reads list in #112 that reminded us of Micro 53 and makes us realize she might be town here. Jesse comes in during post #155 and posts what we believe to be a really bad and scummy post. So now the scum team has become Voided/you/Jesse at that point in the game. I don't really see the problem in her pushing all three of those lynches.

PS: Vi, you're doing it again now.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Well, you're talking to someone who once read through and linked to 5 of someone's games to get mafia lynched. So yeah.

Be assured, this storm is coming for you too.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Who says I haven't been here?

Besides, looking through 2 players' worth of meta is taking a lot of time (this is at least 10 games total), especially when they are both prolific posters. Be patient.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Ok Jesse, here's why your #155 sucked ass. Your question regarding Voided was terrible and it seemed like you were cherry picking only a single statement and ignoring the rest of his comments. The Piggy point, at the time, just seemed like a parroting of what Sixty had said earlier. Mentioning that you were "noting" Equinox's one statement publicly was completely superfluous. Your question towards us was also bad -- there was nothing to be said regarding Equinox's answer. We got the answer and that was it. It read to us at the time like you were also looking to create a phantom link between our slot and Equinox, which you ended up actually doing in #167.

However, there are certain comments you've made throughout the game that seem pretty genuine. Your paranoia regarding Thor in #210 and the constant frustration you've had against my other head seem real, especially context with your stances regarding the more calm/logical players in posts like #206 and the aforementioned #210.

Is that satisfactory?

(By the bye, way to ignore the thrust of the post you're quoting.)

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Saying and doing are very different things. I'm extremely lazy as mafia (as the Black Mask game should show you if you've read it). The fact that I've earned "creepy stalker points" by reading and linking you to one of your posts from one of your recent scum games that suggest you are constructing your reads similarly is something that would never, ever, ever come from me as scum (PS: at the risk of tipping my hand early, Tierce's case against PiggyGal is also reminding me of her play in Abarat 2 and Doctor Who.

Also, I'm not from Westeros. I'm from EM (which is where I know Regfan and everyone from Mini 1373). MS is my first experience with forum mafia and I joined fairly recently, which is why I have so few completed games. Meta was extremely important to me over there, too, but unfortunately, more difficult to do since the games move faster on EM and people cannot access other past games during a game.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Jesse, I get where you're coming from and I hear that argument all the time when I discuss theory with others but two things:

1) You're assuming that I am a skilled player (I'm not).
2) It's not as easy as you think. In my experience, people either conform to the set of characteristics/playstyle that defines their meta or will awkwardly try to change it in a way that come across as forced or unnatural.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

I apologize for the incoming wall that's about to happen, but etc.

There are a few things I'd like to address and if you haven't realized yet that the puppy is scum, I want to show you more for why they are.

First - Thor - we wont be knocking our heads together yet as our schedules for this part of the week don't mesh all that well. But we are both in complete agreement that the puppies are mafia.

Second - saw the question about whether other head played at westeros and meta research. It actually wouldn't matter. And no the games are not easy to identify who is who. The alts are constantly changing and we wo have played in the games have a hard time finding things when we try to go back. It wouldn't matter anyway because meta research is something that isn't allowed to be used as part of a case against someone, which is probably why this head doesn't do it.

Third - the situation with Jesse. And I could just get into a wall off I suppose, but I'm not on my computer which makes quote striping near impossible. I know, sadness abounds right? I'm trying to make sense of the reaction to me. I realize at times I'm a difficult person to play with, but I don't know exactly where you got that I have a superiority complex. I can assure you that I actually dont. I'm a decent Scumhunter most games, but the thing I'm best at is looking town when I'm town. I am, however, a bit temperamental with a tendency to be a bit sarcastic/condescending to those I think are scum or exhibiting scummy behavior. So, when you voted me in Post 179 for not responding when I hadn't made it to that part of he thread yet, that part of my reaction kicked in. Maybe some of it was unwarranted, who knows. Nothing was intentionally insulting.

I'm not sure in Post 206 why you're bringing in my question about piggy's case as scummy. My other head thinks that some things you brought up read genuine and town, so I'm going to go with that, and try not to view it as a mischaracterization of my interaction with Thor. I made it clear that I was trying to get a rea on Thor. Said more than once that he has fooled me in the past so I was going to interact with him to try o get a read on him. I have a scum read on sixty. My question to Thor about sixty's case on piggy was both to help me round out my read on thor and to get perspective on piggy/sixty. As far as my Post 106 that has nothing to do with pandering. He had recently voted us, but I was sure in time he'd realize we were town, and we'd be able to work together instead of against each other. I realize you don't know me, but thors not the type of player that I'd argue with and potentially provoke as scum. Well maybe one day, but I'm very insecure about my scum game, and would have gone a very different route to try to get on thors good side. Yeah I know self meta is useless.

Regarding Post 232 I do get early reads on people from their first posts and sometimes I've been really right. I'm not stuck in my reads though and they fluctuate so sometimes I'll get a scum read and later posts will tell me I've been wrong, but you have to start somewhere.

I'm confused about Post 244 because you're not taking into account the whole picture. There was no we were soft attacking piggy. Both of us had read a couple games with piggy!scum and her first couple of posts did look similar. However when we talked about it, I had said that she also reminded me of a game we were currently playing in (I was dead in though) they had just lynched the day before but the mod hadn't posted the flip. I told him it was possible the game would be ending soon I'd they lynched correctly, in which case she would be town and playing similarly there as here. There is no we are waiting to attack piggy later as I have a town read on her based on the game we played together, which is the type of meta this head focuses mostly on. In Post 82 I said I was leaning town on piggy.

I believe other head voted absta's for unvoting without re-voting. I in post 82 said another post by absta's felt genuine and that I wanted to vote for sixty but needed to talk to empire. When we talked about being a hydra we agreed that we would be unified on our votes, and I was respecting that.

I'll focus on the sixty piggy case, maybe tonight probably tomorrow it's getting late, but you asked about how scum reacted to piggy so I went back and looked at the game we just finished. I'm horrible at paying attention to wagons and just said she was a mislynch I wouldn't lose any tears over in that game, but at one point three out of four scum had jumped aboard the piggy wagon as the early mislynch.

You are, I'd you are town, misinterpreting my questions concerning piggy. I think piggy is likely town; I think sixty is mafia. My questions to people about sixty and their case on piggy was to pin down opinions on sixty. I am in no way trying to push others to do my dirty work. I think the case on piggy is bad and I want others opinions on it/them. Cases exist to tell you as much if not more about the case maker than the person the case is on?

I don't like the way you say "finally" like I took weeks to say something instead of a day. It is these types of things that make me doubt my other heads reading of you as genuine. For instance when you voted us for not responding although it should have been clear I was making my way through the thread and responding to things as they came.

I don't feel stuck with the sixty wagon. I have a scum read there. I'm perfectly happy with my vote where it is and will eat a bag full of top hats if they come back town here.

The only person I have argued with is Thor. And I made it clear that I was trying to get a read on him as well. Did we talk around each other a bit? Sure. I feel like an idiot that I missed his answer about piggy and the Thor meta question. I don't think he caught what I was pointing out about my other head and the meta research until the end, and we're only starting to get somewhere on the debate over the sixty piggy case (not to mention what my read is on him), But beyond that I've posed questions to equinox, who I had a scum read, and to you, who I had a scum read on, and to voided, who I have a scum read on. (and to be fair the only people I showed real attitude/snarkiness/condescension to were you and Thor)

Foruth N - regarding your town read. It didn't have anything to do with your meta talk though the way you questioned her kniwledge of you band wagoning felt natural enough. Where we got out town read of you was your Post 24 where you were like "let me get this straight...". Felt really town.

And fifth - the reponse to sixty will come later. This wall is long enough and I have a couple other things I have to do tonight. I'll try to come back to this tonight but it might be tomorrow.

~tammy

[Cerulean]

2) It's not as easy as you think. In my experience, people either conform to the set of characteristics/playstyle that defines their meta or will awkwardly try to change it in a way that come across as forced or unnatural.

I think it's actually silly easy to change or break meta. The challenge comes in keeping enough sane meta to enable you to prove you're town, and enough meta you can bust at appropriate moments for lulzworthy wins.

...not that I...plot this...ever...

In other news - Ceru is town anyway, meta be damned, so...?

You have a read on Voided? I wouldn't mind getting another vote on Voided.

We have a scum read on voided too, but we're not giving up hope on the sixty wagon yet.

[Cerulean]

Oh, shush up Faraday and vote Sixty with us.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Regfan, I'm on my lunch break right now but since you're painfully obviously town let me give you an offer. I'll put up my meta-based case on Tierce/Vi tonight and see if you agree with it or not. Basically, the thrust of my argument is that the way Tierce constructed her case against Piggy in #79 is far more likely to come from her as scum than as town. Same with Vi's #259. If you're still not as confident in them flipping scum, I'll ask Tammy if she's willing to switch along with you and Thor to Voided considering we also have them as a strong scumread.

Tammy and I had the same reaction to Tierce's post that Faraday did which is why we feel really strongly about them flipping scum.

(Your av sucks, get a new one.)

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

FARADAY!

REGFAN!

HI!

DID YOU CALL ME MEAN?

That wasn't nice:(

I would call you scum for it and see if we could dance in a tunnel a bit, but regfan went and towned up your slot, so another time I guess.

[Cerulean]

Yeah, Regfan called you mean. Personally I thought those posts were fine!

Anyway. Your avatar is boring.

I knew you would!

I really wanted Taylor swift for an avatar but empire said no

[Cerulean]

Alright, now the moment you've all been waiting for...

SIXTY CASE PART I – TIERCE

To make things perfectly clear, most if not all of this post will be devoted to deconstructing #79, which Sixty admits to being Tierce in #134.

First, let’s establish a baseline. I managed to look at a sampling of Piggy’s town games (Precinct Madness, Ladies Night II) and scum games (Double Elimination, Reverse Mafia Redux) to get a sense of how she acts during RVS and to see whether there’s some credence to the notion that she acts the same as both alignments during this phase. Just a cursory glance shows that she does. In #42 of Precinct Madness, just after a lengthy setup spec post, she states her position that she dislikes RVS/finds it hard to give reads in there and lazily tosses out a bunch of gut scumreads on wide number of people. She makes a very similar comment in #81 about scum being on her quickwagon. In the recently finished Ladies Night II, her early RVS play has gotten even more awkward (see #32, #55, and even as late as #213). Her scumplay is pretty similar during RVS as a glance at Reverse Mafia Redux shows, awkwardly outing a bunch of half assed townreads on Xalxe and Thor. She does the same thing in Double Elimination posts #64, #94, and #109. If anything, she’s actually even lazier and less involved in the game during RVS as scum. Posts #72, #74, #76, and #81 of this game might actually suggest she is playing to her town meta simply because she’s more involved here but the differences are slight enough that her pattern here is null I think.

The whole point of that is to show that PiggyGal’s RVS voting patterns is, at worst, very null and difficult to gauge anything out of despite what appears to be scummy awkwardness. She’s awkward like that as both alignments and Tierce should know better given that she and Vi claim to have researched her meta extensively (more on this point later).

Onwards to Tierce…after thoroughly looking through her games, I think you can very clearly see a difference in how she approaches her arguments and her cases. As town, Tierce is extremely thorough, in depth, and probing constantly searching for true motivation behind everything. Her cases come across as more thoughtful and logically sound. As scum, Tierce tends to reach for things to nail people on and often uses BS mafia theory to prop up her logically hollow arguments. Here’s some examples of what I mean:

TOWN:
Micro 73 – My recently finished game with Tierce where she was town and I was scum (free recent me-scum meta for anyone who cares). Her early talking points on NS in #33 are reasonable and seem like the product of a natural, organic thought process given the posts preceding that one. Her posts in #161 and #163 where she moves into suspecting saulres for forgetting Xalxe’s flaking habits being null are also very reasonable and the move into them is very fluid as well.

MLP – Tierce votes Charlie in #17 and then asks him to explain why he’s over-explaining his reads in #82. She moves on to probing into UN’s meta on her in #156 and later pushes Feysal in #230. Again, what’s interesting to note is the structure of her posts. They’re far more involved, less mechanical, and never ever justified with BS mafia theory.

BONUS: Chrono Trigger – Skimmed through her play in this one for Farafan. Tierce in this game takes things very slowly, allows the thread to breathe and is very much involved in the game (#183). She never rushes to push cases on her targets and is just generally more thoughtful in her play.

Overall, you can see from the links here that she’s generally involved and is much more content to let things breathe and play out before creating full-fledged cases. While she does often put forth some talking points, they are usually a lot more comprehensive and less mechanically phrased – it comes across like she’s really interesting in the motivations behind people’s actions and not on trying to characterize people as scummy.

SCUM:
Abarat 2 – The big post I want to point you guys to in this one is #691. COMPARE THE CASES SHE MAKES ON AGAR AND SHINORI WITH HER CASE AGAINST PIGGY HERE – THEY ARE NEARLY IDENTICAL IN STRUCTURE, TONE, AND ARGUMENT. She chides people for playing lazily, sounding tonally awkward, and comments on people’s actions without actually probing into why – the questions in directed towards Shinori (ironically her partner, but that is not relevant here) in that post are artificial to make it appear as though she is interested in her motivations but she is not.

Doctor Who – Tierce quickly jumps at Jason in #70 with a few weak points and props her case up with BS mafia theory logic (“The protown behavior-reactions would be likely to be: 1) dismiss it as an obvious joke or 2) ask. You chose 3) sowing confusion.”). Her involvement in the later portions of the game is very shallow, as in #116 and #199 where she asks superficial questions and gives superficial reads.

Overall, Tierce reaches in her arguments and tries to paint people as scummy with weak arguments and BS mafia theory. Her involvement in the game is also generally a lot more detached as scum.
Now onto her #79 in this game. For this sake of trying to contain this unwieldy wall, I’ll keep the quotes here in italics instead of in blocks for easier reading.

“Here we see that the V/LA thing was a joke (she was voting Soul2277 as RVS), and she shifts to Equinox… This no longer sounds like a joke; she changed her story. If it was a joke, why a) so much explanation and b) is she trying to make others comfortable? There is no Town motivation in helping others find their feet during RVS.”

This is the same kind of hollow argument that Tierce-scum loves to bring up. Part B of this makes absolutely 0 sense. Tierce asks a question and then answers it herself with a BS mafia theory explanation instead of letting Piggy try to actually justify herself. Tierce comes off here as if she’s not interested at all in hearing Piggy’s answer and is instead just trying to paint Piggy’s RVS awkwardness as scummy.

“No analysis; calling one scum on the wagon and not bothering to deconstruct it is a lazy attempt to show work. She is hoping the pressure will go away if she seems disinterested on the wagon, but she is not trying to scumhunt.”

Again, same kind of argument that Tierce-scum likes to bring up. She chides PiggyGal for her laziness despite claiming to be very aware of her meta. She attaches motivations to PiggyGal’s actions without actually searching to find out what they may be herself.

“1) PiggyGal's description of her own meta is false. Meta was one of the main tools we used to read her as scum in xudeR aifaM esreveR. This might be obliviousness to her own meta, but we have trouble believing she really thinks her Town/scum meta is indistinguishable when she just came out of a game where she was pinned accurately as scum on meta.”

Not only is this a bad argument, it is a complete fucking lie. Take a look at Sixty’s ISO in Reverse Mafia Redux and do a CTRL + F search “Piggy”. You will eventually realize that their only mention of Piggy’s meta is in #383 where they acknowledge that PiggyGal isn’t competent as either alignment. Note that their first major case on Piggy comes in at #348, several pages into the game. SHE WAS NAILED AS SCUM ALMOST ENTIRELY FROM HER ACTIONS IN GAME – LITTLE TO NO META DISCUSSION. THEIR ONLY MENTION OF META HERE IS AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT SHE IS “INCOMPETENT” AS BOTH ALIGNMENTS. WHY DID THEY THEN EXPECT SO MUCH MORE FROM HER IN THE EARLY PORTION OF THIS GAME?

The rest of her post essentially re-hashes the same arguments, which boil down to “PiggyGal is lazy, therefore she is scum.”

If you’ve made it this far, I think you guys can plainly see that this is a scum-Tierce case and we need to lynch that slot ASAP. I’d post Part II later but I’m exhausted and I’m going to jam out to my dad’s Aerosmith records to lay back.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

To answer the question burning in your minds right now, yes I do have a life, which is why this took so long.

God, I need to lie down or something.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Okay so, other head is working on the case on sixty, which apparently we'll be using to lynch that slot tomorrow with, but there are a couple things I'd like to point out and demonstrate why they're scum here. (I'm not going to really talk about the piggy stuff cuz other heads doing that.)

Besides an overall level of detachment in the game and the lack of reads as regfan noted, there's a clear leaving themselves room to move if the wind blows. Town don't need to do this. Sometimes they leave themselves openings, but you can usually tell when it's an undecided thought process. But town doesn't need to use language that undermines their own reads and serves to instill suspicion. Town don't do this often and when they do, it's more often natural and comes from a sense of paranoia.

There is no paranoia in their tone or language, but there is premeditated tone that exists to create suspicion.

I first noticed this in tierce's "reaching across the aisle" post as equinox called it. So, in Post 134 sixty says they don't follow thors vote on our slot. I don't know why they didnt, I understood it or at least I could see why he voted even though it was a bad vote. But saying you don't follow someone else's vote on someone would imply you are reading them as town or else why bother, especially with the way its worded?

So, in Post 217 she claims to know that this is how I Scumhunt...pushing people for reactions. Notice how the second paragraph introduces the "but I know you can do this as scum...". She then claims I'm not taking definite conclusions, which is in fact baseless. I posed questions to equinox and came back with a leaning town read as explained in Post 169, posed questions/said things to voided who I have a scum read on, had a back and forth with Thor which helped me get my leaning town, then even more town read. So, none of those interactions were a waste. And asking how they did is a waste.

Later in the post she says she has a town read on me, yet asks how my interactions helped my reads even though I'd already stated them in thread...Jess probs was the only one not stated to be fair. Then continuing "I know you can play as town without being hostile". Neither of these sentences follow as worded if they have a town read on our slot.

To answe the other puppy's question in Post 217 . That's a silly claim, you're not a silly player. It read to me as engendering good will from jesse, rushing out to take his side and point out my flaws. Read to me as buddying. But if you take a buddying suggestion as a scum claim then why did your hydra accuse salamanca of buddying you guys in reversed mafia and use it as evidence that he was mafia? But it's a nice way to subtly allow yourself to remove the town read from our slot when it becomes convenient. To respond to the last bit: perhaps if you had gotten a town pm this game and acted accordingly, we would view you as towniest. Sadly, that didn't happen.

Post 259 continues with the subtle way of casting suspicion on our slot without actually coming out and saying anything which doesn't follow if they have the town read they claim to have. Yes, I thought that piggy's vote and post about Jesse owned. If I had my choice, she would have realized how scummy your posts are, but alas she didnt. We absolutely are willing to vote voided as another strong scum read, which have been made clear as my other head pointed out. In this post, you are trying to suggest its scummy to have three scum reads when there is a three person scum team, which is laughably bad.

Continuing on it gets worse. They say they have a town read on me because this is how I act as town, but they give a caveat "she can act this way as scum too" and the fact that it's directed at jesse who incidentally had a scum read on our slot makes it even more jarring. The thing that is most humorous is that its actually a misrepresentation of me as scum, especially as scum in a single scum game interacting with pleple not my partners. And considering that tierce and I were on the same scum team in abarat, she's actually more familiar with my scum meta as I know she kept up with that game after I replaced in. Again claiming that I've done nothing with the information I've gained is just false, especially in light of the fact that I've been clear about my reads the entire time.

The Jesse scum read from the first post is also trash. They're trying to compare me saying I had a scum read fom someone from their first post, when they asked if my interaction had helped the read, and it was followed by my thought process on why I might be wrong. Their attempt to claim it is anything like a case made on someone prematurely and crappy is anything like someone trying to get a read is so laughable I can't believe they wrote it with a straight face. It was designed to do nothing more than undermine my attack on their case.

Post 288 is just another subtle throw out that the town read they have on our slot isn't solid. As the request for meta from empire and whether or not he does meta research as scum was a means to pre-emptively undermine the case he had already said he was building on them after meta research.

Like seriously, if these guys are town, I have no idea how.

Also, a lynch on them should make you feel happy! Besides the obvious lynching mafia, all puppies go to heaven, so really we're just sending them to a better place.

PS: read empires case because it's much better than this, and sorry were both wallers

[Cerulean]

@Sicty - strategic lynch to avoid being top counter?

Shamelessly so.

Um, thanks for the scum claim, I guess.

~Empire.

PEDIT: What the fuck, I just noticed the sig

[Cerulean]

You literally mention Voided once

What the fuck was that hammer.

This sounds fake.

[Cerulean]

I have played with both of them before, OS. I'm as surprised as you are. At least we were right on them being scum.

(Also, #393 was Tammy, not me.)

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

That was Tammy.

Is this Oversoul? What are your thoughts on sixty?

[Cerulean]

Regfan, I'm not even questioning it right now because there's no point. Sixty essentially claimed scum and Voided's flip will be resolved whenever the mod gets back on.

Sixty gets lynched tomorrow. Period.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Thanks for the links. Will look into them and his town games a bit later. Busy as hell this weekend.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

I wonder if I can turn 'Sexyback' into a song about 'Sixty'?

Please try.

[Cerulean]

Hey Voided, since you're reading, I'll save you the trouble of writing one of your quote strip walls. You just got hammered. Are you scum?

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Well, Voided just uhhh left the thread? Maybe he's actually scum with Sixty?

Fingers crossed.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Voided, final reads summary, absta aside?

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

I thought about that possibility too given that Tierce bussed Shinori in a similar fashion in Abarat 2 but we'll see. At any rate, speedlynch the puppy tomorrow and we'll figure out what to do from there.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

lmfao

"Our plan revolves around preserving a set of townreads that includes us so we're going to do this really bad and scummy thing and quickhammer someone out of self preservation instead of addressing the case against us when it is clear the tide is turning."

Yeah no, get lynched.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

You would have been given an opportunity to defend yourself from the cases. You had no fucking reason to just quick hammer out of self preservation like that without addressing them. Neither of you are this fucking bad.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Like seriously, the only people voting you at the time were my slot and Soul. Regfan was insistent on Voided and wasn't going to move. I doubt Thor even read that wall. You had more than enough time.

What the actual fuck?

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

lol if you think Regfan would stay up until 4 AM his time to write a massive comprehensive wallpost as scum with minimal input from Faraday.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

PS: Tammy thinks you might be scum, too.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Don't bother. You're getting lynched. Just self vote when the next day starts.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

VOTE: Sixty

[Cerulean]

Oh my fucking god, Thor, are you kidding me?

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

"I acknowledge that Sixty did a really bad and really scummy thing and provided justifications for it that fall way below their intelligence level but I am instead going to vote for the random lurker who has some towntells."

Kill me now.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

(Tammy was obvtown anyway. She's much more bitchy as town)

Thanks man.

[Cerulean]

Thor - Their plan may be similar in essence to the reversed mafia game breaking strategy but that doesn't mean they're town here. That strategy is not only logical and alignment independent but could have easily been discussed before they got their role pm.

Thing is there is no way, no how they are town here. Town puppies would know that we have three mislynches and that's all. Town puppies would have been more careful than to hammer voidedmafia the way they did and then display their "plan" and then act like they're fine with being lynched because they don't want to be a "distraction." That would be two mislynches down, which would mean that there is only one more. I have an immense amount of trouble accepting town either Vi or Tierce being okay with this with the stakes being so high. That is not the Tierce who in the Chrono Trigger dead qt said that as town you never accept your lynch because you're the only confirmed town you know. This is nothing like the town Tierce who gained suspicion wrongly in mafia behind the maiden and argued against it. The distraction avenue is horseshit as well. I can to a certain extent understand the mindset as in Leprachaun mafia I practically insisted on being lynched before LyLo as I thought my being alive would make town lose (I took a similar position in experimental at the end), but I'm not seeing even a glimmer of the mindset I had in their case about being a "distraction" when the fact is if they were town, they'd be answering the case against them with more "oomph" maybe a little righteous indignation about their alignment, which they're not.

Their play makes way more sense for scum!puppies. They saw an easy mislynch and took it, knowing that we'd only have two more. They saw cases being built against them and rather than take a day one lynch helped along a mislynch. They had to know that there was no guarantee voided would be lynched on day two and acted accordingly, essentially trading one for one when they knew they were doomed anyway.

I find it really strange that they are calling us the competent players who will purge the scum after their death while we've been the one pushing for their lynch the most. That makes no sense whatsoever if they're town here, not to assert that we're wrong about them, and will somehow wake up and be right about the rest of the game and if we were wrong they'd want even more to stay alive and make sure town won. If they were town, but they're not. The only aspect of the case against them was Tierce addressing the meta case and that was just to say that the interpretation of her meta was wrong, which can be done as either alignment and nothing that pertains to this game was addressed, except for a really minor point in the way they treated piggy.

If by some strange miracle, they flip town, I'll look at their plan. But that's such a minor likelihood that it's almost zilch.

N - I doubt very seriously that either of those players are going to drop tells for who their partners are. Neither one of those players are incompetent, and knowing that they're going to be lynched are going to be trying to spread whatever misinformation they can, if they actually take the time out to do much of anything.

Soul - I don't really have a great description for you for why I suspect you. Do you always ask for people to explain their potential scum reads on you? Other head and regfan will do meta analysis on you guys I'm sure, but where I'm coming from is just a difference in feeling I get from Oversoul. The reaction to the hammer felt fake. The reaction to Faraday feels like an attempt to fake town irritation. I mean, I get it, I've gone round and round with Faraday before so I know what it feels like, but he wasn't really all that antagonistic to you so the reaction read off with regards to the amount of instigation I saw (although calling you an idiot wasn't cool). Oversoul, even in his few moments here and there, hasn't felt engaged at all. And, I would expect him to interact a bit. His throwback to the piggy meta felt odd. He said he hadn't finished re-reading, though he said that Sixty had literally mentioned voided once after the hammer which would tell me that he has been reading. There's been little direct interaction with anyone from Oversoul, which I would expect from him as town. I would also expect a bit more paranoia when it comes to dealing with Tierce, and I'm not getting any of that (to be fair this is a bad expectation, he was paranoid as fuck over Tierce in mafia behind the maiden so that's what I'm going with). I just don't even see a glimpse of his town play.

~Tammy

[Cerulean]

Thor reasoning behind the vote? In your words I don't grok it.

Am I allowed to just say 'beard' again?
You should sheep me though.

If I say beard, will you just sheep me? My blue blood burns for a scum lynch, and we're one away from making that happen. So say we all?

[Cerulean]

Nut the N wagon is gaining steam, look at how fascinating it is.

But it's less satisfying than a Sixty lynch.

Besides, for a limited time, I'm offering to the hammer of the Sixty wagon a holy avenger hammer (sure usually it's a sword but adjustments can be arranged.) I can also craft a vorpal hammer, upon request.

[Cerulean]

N - I doubt very seriously that either of those players are going to drop tells for who their partners are. Neither one of those players are incompetent, and knowing that they're going to be lynched are going to be trying to spread whatever misinformation they can, if they actually take the time out to do much of anything.

This is what worries me. If they're so competent, how did they get into such a position?

I don't think that was the plan. They made a bad case, and probably expected it to gain them some town cred. It didn't.

[Cerulean]

I listen to Justin Timberlake unironically.

(Hammer Sixty. N's town.)

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

No. Someone fucking hammer Sixty already. Despite being at L-1, Tierce has been around posting elsewhere instead of doing the "reaction analysis" she said she was going to do.

They're obvscum. Finish them.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

VOTE: Justin

Cool. You die tomorrow.

Lynch Sixty for the love of fucking god.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Oh ok. Would you please vote Sixty before you leave then?

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Lyncha lyncha lyncha
New ipana hemp rope
Lyncha lyncha lyncha
Knock out
Evil scums fast, fast faster
We're all right!

[Cerulean]

Yeah, don't mind me...I've lost my mind apparently.

[Cerulean]

Hey Arthur/F-16, let me save you some time. Start reading the thread here here to see why Sixty is obvious mafia and then vote them so Faraday can hammer.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Who cares? We can just figure out who Sixty's partner is tomorrow.

OS, Justin's Town. With a capital T. Regfan doesn't stay up until 4 AM his time to write a massive wall as scum with minimal input from Faraday. He simply does not give that much of a shit when he's mafia.

(Yes, I go to UM Law, I'm a 3L.)

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Hey Tierce, since you're really obvious scum (yes, I have seen you post prolifically elsewhere) and you're getting lynched, can you do us a solid and self hammer so we can end this insufferable day and find out who your partners are? Thanks in advance.

P-Edit: Sorry, my patience is at an all time low right now.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Thanks for the absta scum meta, Thor. Will look into it (and Mehdi's) when I have some free time.

Now please hammer Sixty.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Or vote N. That is also an option.

Don't make me talk to Odin and have your hammer replaced with a feather.

We're having lynch share time. You said beard yesterday and got your lynch, we said wall wall wall today and get our lynch. Tomorrow we can talk about beards again. Today we send the puppies to heaven.

[Cerulean]

Speaking of which, Thor, what are your thoughts on absta in this game given that you just finished a scum game with him as your partner?

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

As scum I acknowledge that you are right and will be less forceful in my anger towards you but when I am town yo ubetter hope you fucking lock your doors at night or you don't play a game with me immediately after you mislynch me because I WILL hold it agianst you. As scum I accept that I have acted scummy and that I have not played to the best of my ability and will not hold it against you and will not hate you for yoru actions because I know you are right and only doing what I would do if our spots were switched. As town however I will do whatever is possibly in my power via either belligerence, or anger, or contempt in order to convey my feelings toward you. Basically it is a pride thing and unfortunately I am a very proud person.

This is not necessarily true (#3110 and onwards).

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Actually, fuck, it's the exact reverse.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Hmmmm...has he ever replaced into a scum slot? I'm curious to see if he's ever put forth that much effort into a catch-up post. But at any rate, I'm out for the night so I'll let the other head handle it, she can read him better than I can anyway.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Hi.

Hey Arthur! You don't want to chat with us or anything?

[Cerulean]

Oh good you're around. Vote sixty and send the scum!puppies to heaven.

[Cerulean]

Seriously, please hammer. This game is going to stall while we wait on this lynch.

[Cerulean]

Oh yay! Okay now we wait.

[Cerulean]

It's a nail biter.

Oh, soul - ill read your wall later and respond.

[Cerulean]

Posting from my phone to say that I'm super stoked about that flip.

We're going to need to take this game very slowly. I want to make damn sure this is a D3 Town Win.

I first want to hear Regfan's thoughts especially regarding OS's catch-up wall.

We need to consider the possibility that Sixty were trying to Piggy.

More when I come back.

~Empire

[Cerulean]

EBWOP: possibility that Sixty were trying to bus Piggy.

~Empire

[Cerulean]

OOOOHHHH HHHEEEELLLLLLL YYYYYEEEEESSSSS!!!!!!!

BOOM BABY.

[Cerulean]

Okay I got through to page 10. More to come later tonight hopefully.

Piggy reads as somewhat nervous in the beginning.
What the actual fuck.
I can see why people are attacking absta early on.
Thor is town.
72 (Pig) reads as slightly scummy.
What the hell is 75
N reads fine. So does Tampire.
102 (Soul) is rather bad.
Tampire read town.
112 (Equ) reads town.
114 (Soul) reads bad.
Hmm 199 (Soul) doesn’t seem that bad. Prob negates 114 actually.
Wait 120 (Tampire) is bad.
Mehdi reads as somewhat good now.
Did Piggy (138) call the whole playerlist that posted town?
Oh wait actually she’s scum for that ending. She can die when I get to the end.
Don’t really like JS’ entry.
Wait why does Tampire have a scumread on Thor again
Dammit Tampire is towntelling pretty hard but I STILL don’t get the thor read.
Oh wait nvm Tampire can be town for surie.
Tampire Thor fight is town on town.
“Wow...are you a runner? Cuz if you are, you can probably run twice your normal distance after that stretch.” – I seriously fell from my chair.
Jesse reads as somewhat scum.

Thus far:

Piggy, JS
N
Thor, Equi
Tampire, Soul

~ He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named

Is this Arthur? Why did you ask about night less? When we played in heterosexual revolution there were not breaks.

Why did you just declare thor as town?

Why did you feel the need to show your work for developing a town read on me? Why did you say the post in which I asked equinox why she was townreading thor was bad? Why does it seem like your read on me is partially dependent on my read of Thor. And, where did you get that I have a scum read on Thor?

[Cerulean]

@Ceru - sorry I did that for yesterday, but I wanted to actually see who would be interested in a counterwagon. Jesse bit, but I wanted to then see how Sixty would respond - but, yeah, he went for power lurk to avoid tells.

.

Tis all good. I thought you were just doing it for the amusement factor mostly.

[Cerulean]

Cool. Where would you get my asking someone for their reasoning for a town read means I have a scum read on them?

Also, what would it matter if I did? And how can you declare the Thor v Tammy argument town on town if you didn't actually read it? Because the actual words I wrote to Thor in which I gave him my read on him didn't call him scum.

Also, answer my other questions please.

[Cerulean]

Thor - I need to step back from the game and go over some things with fresh eyes and talk things over with empire. I know that he feels better about Jesse than I do, but now that we've gotten the sixty lynch out of the way, there's some regrouping to do. And I'll start working on that tomorrow.

OS - I know I said I'd answer your questions later, I still will, but more likely tomorrow. I'm exhausted right now.

[Cerulean]

When you ask a player why they have a townread on a player it does make it look like you have a scumread on them

Also note that I later said "Oh wait nvm Tampire can be town for surie" which was put when I looked back and realized you might not have a scumread on Thor.

Btw Tammy, who is scum?

~Hero of Hire

No, it doesn't. Although Thor answered it correctly.

You're still not answering why your read of me is dependent on my read on Thor.

I'll get back to you on who scum is. I'm still on a high from pushing scum for a week and being right.

[Cerulean]

Tammy, off the top of your head, who is scum?

Without discussing it. Without looking back. Who do you have a bad feeling about?

Why are you asking me this in the way you're asking me this.

[Cerulean]

Why are you asking me that the way you are asking?

[Cerulean]

Also, I have asked you this twice now. Why is your read of me dependent on my read of Thor.

[Cerulean]

Because. I'm not going to cave to you Arthur.

It should be a simple thing for you to answer. Why are you asking me that the way you're asking.

[Cerulean]

When you ask a player why they have a townread on a player it does make it look like you have a scumread on them

also note that I later said "Oh wait nvm Tampire can be town for surie" which was put when I looked back and realized you might not have a scumread on Thor.

Btw Tammy, who is scum?

~Hero of Hire

I've bolded for you the important part Arthur. Now why is your read on me dependent on my read on Thor.

[Cerulean]

I'm interested in your motivation for asking me for my top scum reads, right now, without thinking, without discussion.

[Cerulean]

Why would it be dumb to have a scum read on Thor?

[Cerulean]

I don't like the tone and the way you're asking.

[Cerulean]

Arthur's tone is off. He feels like he's trying to play to his town meta, but is coming off forced.

He doesn't feel like a fellow townie, who is asking the question of someone who's answer he would respect. He's trying to assert some sort of dominance and it's coming off awkward.

I wanted to find out his motivation. It should be easy for him to answer. Like, your a strong town read and I'd like your opinion. Or I want to know without you looking back because I know you tend to talk yourself out of things but are sometimes accurate when you just answer off the top of your head. Or any number of things, but it's coming off weird.

[Cerulean]

Unless you think a boogie man will materialize from the underworld or something to kill you for pronouncing someone's name then I don't see why you're still refusing to answer.

Pedit: To Tammy obv.

Yes, this is obviously what I'm worried about, especially considering I was so quiet about who I've thought was scum this whole time and definitely wasn't the driving force behind the scum flip.

[Cerulean]

I suspect dead pool actually. Still suspect soul somewhat but his wall post read fairly genuine at times, so he's not as VIG a suspect as I had him yesterday. Still think the reaction to the hammer read really fake as does some of his aggression. Jesse is a blond spot for me, I suspect him somewhat but empire thinks he's town. Want to look at piggy more closely as I remember her saying that she tends to wall as scum, and it's entirely possible the bad case was being made as an early bus for town cred. N is in my blind spot.

[Cerulean]

You think empire and I are planning reads? What does that even mean?

[Cerulean]

Arthur - why is it dumb to think Thor is scum? Explain why you have such a strong town read on him.

What would it matter if empire and I were planning reads? If by planning you mean discussing, yes we are. What are you trying to suggest with that?

Have you finished reading the game yet?

Why hasn't f-16 been posting?

[Cerulean]

Soul - arhturs demenor is off. I'm not too concerned with absta's meta, I'm concerned with Arthur's. I'm familiar with Arthur's meta. Of course I'll need more interaction with Arthur to feel comfortable with my read on him, but he doesn't read town at all really.

[Cerulean]

Oh yeah,

VOTE: deadpool

This is happening.

[Cerulean]

HEY ARTHUR YOU WANNA DANCE WITH ME?

[Cerulean]

Hey Arthur - riddle me this. Why do you have me listed as a strong town read? Why were you talking about me town telling?

Town don't need a reason to plan reads and deliberately set things up.

So, you're telling me in your wtf world, I bussed tierce/vi? I, who hates being scum, bussed people who are far more competent at scum.

Seriously, ask yourself that.

You know my meta. You know for an absolute fact I'm town here, so this bs your spilling is crap. I have strong reads...do I need to go back and read and evaluate? Hell yes. I spent the past week pushing the hell out of scum. And am largely responsible for getting them lynched. You think without me and empire, that would have happened? Hell no. We have three lynches left; I pushed the one I was confident in and now is the time to go back and reassess to make sure our reads are accurate and we get this done on day 3. For you to suggest that's not pragmatic is ridiculous.

[Cerulean]

Arthur - why is it dumb to think Thor is scum? Explain why you have such a strong town read on him.

He read as genuine, and something prob caught my eye on my reading that made him town.

This is bs. To back and find it and tell me why it's so dumb for someone to have a scum read on Thor.

[Cerulean]

And Tammy's vote is rather derptastic.

No, he's a really good contender for scum. This is not his town game.

[Cerulean]

I think you and Empire are planning reads.

Aren't they kinda supposed to? Being a hydra and all that.

That thought came out stupid but I meant they were deliberately contriving reads.

Read the game. Then you come back and try to say that with a straight face. I dare you.

[Cerulean]

Hey Arthur - riddle me this. Why do you have me listed as a strong town read? Why were you talking about me town telling?

I was still reading the game then? (and I still loosely am).

Finish it and continue with this crap. Make me think you even believe it.

You know my meta. You know for an absolute fact I'm town here, so this bs your spilling is crap. I have strong reads...do I need to go back and read and evaluate? Hell yes. I spent the past week pushing the hell out of scum. And am largely responsible for getting them lynched. You think without me and empire, that would have happened? Hell no. We have three lynches left; I pushed the one I was confident in and now is the time to go back and reassess to make sure our reads are accurate and we get this done on day 3. For you to suggest that's not pragmatic is ridiculous.

Why did this turn into preaching about how you pushed Tierce/Vi [/quote]

you said that we deliberately decided to do that. And that we had shallow reads, which is bs. We're so town here that it's not even funny, you know that, and you're trying to suggest otherwise.

Oh Arthur it would have been better if you acted like town.

[Cerulean]

Deadpool - when you get back answer why it's dumb to suspect Thor. Then answer how you got such a town read on him from that. Do not ignore this question again.

Mehdi - I am kinda ignoring Absta. The thing is I know Arthur's meta, and he knows mine. We've played together for a year now, as we both play at another site. We've probably by now been in almost 20 games together. He knows 100% that I'm town here. So for him to try to assert that our reads have been contrived and that we're anything but town after the push we made against Sixty is laughable. He knows better. This is absolutely Arthur's scum meta. He would be able to answer why he has a town read on Thor; it wouldn't be that he "probably read something that read genuine". He would have explained it. He also wouldn't have people's reads dependent on how they read Thor. He knows there's absolutely nothing shallow about the way I've approached this game. And what I'm wondering about is the way he's treating Thor. Why does he have this strong town read that he can't explain, and had my read tied up in the way I read Thor. His catchup post read completely contrived and forced. Also, seems like a silly thing, but the "Hi" post and then nothing for hours doesn't make sense for an innocent Arthur who probably partially joined this game so he could play with Faraday. He probably needed to catch up in the scum qt first.

[Cerulean]

Hey, Arthur and Thor, why are you two so adamant about each other being so town?

(Thor, you are the last person who should be talking about "derptastic" votes. I don't think you've voted mafia all game.)

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Also note, that instead of answering my questions, deadpool tried to turn things around on me.

[Cerulean]

Have you finished reading the game yet?

More or less. I've been ISOing players more tbh.

Why are you reading iso's instead of reading the game in total to get context?

[Cerulean]

So, Thor, you think it's plausible, someone non-retarded and familiar with my meta, read this game and decided my reads are contrived and shallow? (Also, note that I don't have strong reads all the time, and this is well documented and known from people who play with me.)

What do you find town about deadpool?

[Cerulean]

He does stupid shit when he's scum, and because normally that would look town.

Why can't he explain why he has a town read on you, and why does he tie that read to other people's alignments?

[Cerulean]

Also, while we're at it - I actually think his case on you makes sense.
I don't agree with it - but t looks quite logical and functional as a path to suspicion.

Oh does it now? Interesting.

[Cerulean]

Thor - you should sheep me.

[Cerulean]

Oh I didn't care about giving my reads. I wanted the motivation. Arthur read off. He's never once behaved that way with me in a game. I wanted him to tell me why he was asking me the question the way he did.

And the thing is, no I wouldn't. I don't call myself queen waffles from time to time for nothing. My strongest reads were Voided and Sixty as scum. I was wrong on voided and right on sixty. The third one was always in flux.

[Cerulean]

OS - responses:

Regarding Piggy's entrance: We decided it was ultimately a null tell. Originally we thought it was evidence that she was scum, but as I said that game we were just in she also began awkwardly as town. Therefore, she does it as both alignments, making it null, but overall she felt to me the way she felt in the game we just played together in which she was town.

Looking forward to hearing the name of our hydra!

We played in GvE and in mafia behind the maiden as well as being team mafia teammates. I feel like all three of those give me some type of base ability to read you. I mean in GvE you replaced into a slot I was reading as scum and changed my mind based upon your play. I don't think I have an accurate take on your meta, but I feel like since I've read you accurately in the past, and since we shared a qt in team mafia, I have a better feel for your play than someone I don't have any finished games with.

I liked Piggy's 161. I said I thought the post owned.

I think that hits all the points I was supposed to address, but if I missed something let me know, that was a long wall.

[Cerulean]

Oh does it now? Interesting.

It does - I agree with him that normally you would have stronger personal reads.
Also, you did act fishy about handing them over to him when, literally, from a town perspective there was no downside.

Oh, but do you see that I was right? He had a motive that he was pushing to ask. I knew Arthur was trying to do something...because I know Arthur.

[Cerulean]

How's emp been doing when it comes to reading my meta?

~Mehdi

I have no idea.

[Cerulean]

I do know that he's more interested in Arthur's meta now though. I know that the wall by OS read a bit genuine to him and he doesn't know why scum him would put in all that effort.

[Cerulean]

[quote="In post 773

Same with Cerulean/Deadpool, actually, although I'm not as convinced these two are both town. I had a scumread on absta before, and SAD saying he understands how several people read absta as scum doesn't help that. Tammy's reluctance to out her reads doesn't seem overtly scummy to me; yeah, it's weird, but I don't see why she would be less likely to conform as scum than town.[/quote]

It had nothing to do with being reluctant to out reads, and everything to do with determining Arthur's motivation.

[Cerulean]

It wasn't dangerous for me to state my reads. I just knew something was up with him. Wanted him to out his motivation first.

[Cerulean]

I didn't like his tone. I wants him to establish why he was asking/his purpose.

[Cerulean]

Town Arthur has never behaved that way with me when he's known it was me and it's clear I'm town. There is literally no way Arthur can suspect me here. So for him to turn it around on me when I was asking him questions totally means either he drank retarded juice today or he's legit scum. There's no way around it.

I knew from the way he asked, because his tone was off, that there was more to it than wanting my reads. Which is why I asked, and which is why I got stubborn about it.

He's scum here.

[Cerulean]

Same with Cerulean/Deadpool, actually, although I'm not as convinced these two are both town. I had a scumread on absta before, and SAD saying he understands how several people read absta as scum doesn't help that. Tammy's reluctance to out her reads doesn't seem overtly scummy to me; yeah, it's weird, but I don't see why she would be less likely to conform as scum than town.

It had nothing to do with being reluctant to out reads, and everything to do with determining Arthur's motivation.

Did you really expect him to tell you why he wanted your reads before you'd actually given them?

If he was town, absolutely. If he was town he'd want to work with me, but he didn't.

[Cerulean]

Nope!

[Cerulean]

Except why did he keep talking about my strong town tells I was dropping? He's scum here.

[Cerulean]

It is not a sliding scale.

Still disagree with ceru on arthur. People who know you can still misread you (and he wouldn't want to work with someone he thinks is scum).

~Mehdi

HE HASN'T EVEN HAD THE BALLS TO COME OUT AND CALL ME SCUM!

[Cerulean]

He's not even voting...though he gave tiers and thinks my push on scum was contrived. Yep, totally believes it. Lynch it.

[Cerulean]

I'll explain it more tomorrow. I'm crashing now, but Arthur does not talk to me like that when he's town. He's trying to force his aggressive town meta.

[Cerulean]

No. No. No.

Note that he ignored questions I had to get a read on him. He based part of his read on me being dependent on my read on Thor. He cant or won't explain his strong town read on Thor but yet has the audacity to claim that my reads are scattered and shallow and ungeuine. I guess because he thinks he has tiers, his reads are genuine when they aren't. There's no depth to his play whatsoever so for him to claim I've been shallow makes literally no sense whatsoever, especially after he claimed to have a strong town read on me. This is not how town Arthur talks to me, not even a little bit. Then he actually claims that we contrived the read on tierce? We gave everything we had to getting that scum lynch this week and he's trying to take that away from us.

Why are you just addressing me? Why aren't you telling him how wrong he is in his conclusions that everything Ive done this week has been contrived, fake, and shallow.

[Cerulean]

Also, I don't think absta's replace out was all that big a town tell.

And I've been giving reads this whole game, as I've been the most active one therefore the reads are mine. It wasn't that he asked for the reads, it was that I could tell by the way he asked that he was going to throw some crap at me and I wanted to know his motivation.

[Cerulean]

Regfan, when I read over absta's posts the first time I didn't see what you were talking about but after rereading them I 100% get it and I'll talk it over with Tammy the next time I see her. Want to remind you to look at Piggy's #646, I thought it was kind of genuine when I read it but I'm on the fence. Still haven't made time to look at Mehdi/OS's meta but I'll try to make some this week.

Deadpool, I'm really interested in hearing F-16's thoughts on the game so please try to get him in here ASAP.

So far, the only slot I have in my "unlynchable" pool is Justin Timberlake. I have a bunch of weaker townreads but I'm not confident in them at all, want to give the thread another reread and talk them over some with Tammy to decide where we want to go.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

I've played with F-16 before here and though I was scum there I felt like he was very transparently town in that game. I only played with Arthur briefly here, where even though I read him as town correctly, he replaced out shortly after I replaced in so I feel a bit less confident with him. Tammy claims to know his meta very well though and I want to talk with her over Arthur's recent posts.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Right now, I want to say N's town, feel like he comes across as genuinely frustrated at being misrepped in his whole back and forth with Jesse (#660). Tammy and I are still debating about Deadpool/Thor. Rereading Sixty's case against Piggy does remind me a bit of Tierce's bus case against Shinori in Abarat 2 (for reference: here). Right now, I'm currently re-examining Jesse. I'm inclined to agree with your points re: OS being town.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

@Deadpool - what do you, coming from 20+ games of experience, think of Tammy calling herself a waffle queen and how does that feed into your current read there?

She's town bro.

Like, super town.

Sorry Tammy :/ I mean, I was super exhausted yesterday, the game was so fucking dense, and somehow I did not expect so many walls <_< I really needed to get a read on you, and you know that's easiest to do :p I literarly was bullshitting reads, and that catchup I did was pathetic at best seeing I was skimming everything fast. And there are different levels of mad that you get that indicate whether you're town or not.

The actual intention started harmless because I really was lost and wanted your thoughts. But then decided push it instead when you refused to answer. And you towntold like super hard *shrug* (tbh it was like déjà vu from that game you were Tuon).

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but there are things that don't add up. Yes, you were bullshitting reads I guess, but you posted post numbers of mine and what you thought. You quoted one of my responses to Jesse in your post; therefore, you had read me. When I asked about what gave you the idea I had a scum read on Thor, you immediately quoted the post that gave you that idea. So, you may have been reading and going through quickly, but you were very well aware of my posts and that I was town telling. Since you quoted my response to Jesse, you already knew that I had displayed my town mad that I get, you didn't need to test it. And, I'm lost on this aspect too, but you've never needed to test it once you've known that it's me playing. So, none of this makes any sense to me coming from town you.

What bothers me isn't that you asked for my reads, I couldn't care less about that as I've been very up front with my reads the entire game and had earlier said I needed to reasess. We have exactly three lynches to get this done and my two strongest scum reads had been lynched. What bothered me is that you refused to answer the questions I asked and instead deflected onto me. I could tell you had an agenda and were going to throw crap at me, so yes I got stubborn about it. What reads weird to me is that you didn't need to push anyone else to get a stronger read on them in the way you did me and the way you went about it discrediting me and our getting scum lynched sets off alarms for me. Because that makes literally no sense coming from town you.

[Cerulean]

Regfan, I'll let you know what I find out re: Jesse/Sixty interactions after I come back from dinner.

This might be worth looking at.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Here's my basic reservation on Piggy!scum. It's her push on Thor. In the games that I've read of her as scum, and I'll look again to make sure, but she was more a sheep and didn't go after the stronger players. I would imagine someone who has an awkward play style and a seemingly lack of confidence in her game to NOT go after a player like Thor.

[Cerulean]

My issue with Jesse is that he never really mentioned Sixty. In his first post, he addresses Thor, Piggy, Equinox and me, but made no mention of Sixty. He interacts some with Soul, but again doesn't mention Sixty. And that's after I had talked about how much I didn't like the case and had been asking people why they weren't talking about Sixty.

He eventually in Post 206 says he's getting a good solid town read based mostly on a way they addressed absta. But, there was no mention about their piggy case even though I'd been bringing it up and asking everyone for their opinions on it. He then starts to push a scum read on me, based on my interaction with Thor - which is odd considering it should be obvious I was trying to round out my read on him. After I had explained why Sixty's case was crappy, he decided to discredit it/me by saying that our piggy comment was a soft attack we were too scared to go with, that our case against Sixty was contrived, tried to act as if me getting people's opinions on my scum read was scummy, and then acted as if we somehow didn't want to stay with the wagon we'd been pushing since the day I entered the game. None of his Post 244 looks like trying to gain a read on me, but trying to undermine my attack on Sixty.

I just wonder if he would tie himself to his partner this strongly. I suppose they could have hoped that my case would go away if they undermined us enough? That would jive with Sixty's language which undermined their town read on me.

[Cerulean]

Piggy does a derp vote.
Thor becomes a scumtell.
#mylife

I saw here play a much more confident game as town in micro 36 though. Here she just seems so nervous, and I can see here being coached by you.

What happened to your it's dumb to suspect Thor thing you had going on?

[Cerulean]

Deadpool - How's working on your stronger reads coming about?

[Cerulean]

The only real time that Jesse starts to show slight suspicion of Sixty is in Post 519 after their hammer and wonderful plan. He states that he's leaning scummy on them even though there'd been a major case built on them that they ignored. He didn't mention any of that. And even though it was clear by that point that Sixty was scum, he kept throwing suspicion out to other people, ie N and Soul, and even me in the "if Cerulean were a town player" as if it weren't anything but evident I was.

He then says he doesn't mind hammering them, but votes N instead.

[Cerulean]

Did I stop existing? Why are you only talking to Empire?

[Cerulean]

Did I stop existing? Why are you only talking to Empire?

Because he's the breadwinner and thus the only important one in your hydra.

Kay, I'll let him take over from here then.

[Cerulean]

Faraday - Yesterday you called Jesse ++ town. What changed?

Regfan - As you were looking at the Piggy/Jesse interaction, did you look to see if interaction was similar between them and sixty?

[Cerulean]

That more supports a piggy/thor team a bit if you consider piggy as scum. Curious what game you're referring to (although she did sheep thor a ton in DD mafia as scum).

~Mehdi

In both of the games Empire linked earlier she baa'd and followed a strong town read.

[Cerulean]

VOTE: Piggy

[Cerulean]

We were reading through her iso and came to Post 81 .

[Cerulean]

I looked at this post again and nearly spit water at my monitor.

You're scummy because I hate dogs o.O no other reason really, I'm certainly not going to vote you or push your lynch for such a crap reason, so be thankful you get a town read now.

Literally the worst interaction I've seen with Sixty all game.

P-Edit: ninja'd by Tammy.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Yeah, Empire noticed the same thing.

[Cerulean]

*crosses fingers*

Agree on Jesse.

I'll be super happy if we finished this with just one mislynch.

[Cerulean]

Faraday, you're the one that posted that shit. I don't even have the last button thing working on my computer, used that key to replace the missing i.

Lol

[Cerulean]

JT - he can't link us to the scum qt until the game officially ends...silly boy.

[Cerulean]

Oh gods I'm going to have a stroke or something. If this game doesn't end today, we are no joke taking it slower tomorrow.

[Cerulean]

N, since I see you're around, do us a solid and tell us if you're Piggy's partner please. Thanks in advance.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

OH MY GODS I HOPE YOU'RE TELLING THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!

[Cerulean]

Faraday really is offline, if that's what you mean.

[Cerulean]

I want my goddamn town win already.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Oh, fucking wonderful, the game is going on an extra day, isn't it?

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Okay guys...seriously, if they game is still going on tomorrow we are not rushing the day again.

[Cerulean]

Wasn't intentional. Good cases were made and I didn't foresee the day going any other way. If it ends the day, then awesome. If it doesn't, we need to take a step back and not rush it again. There are only two lynches after this one. I want to make sure we get it right.

But hopefully it will be good game.

[Cerulean]

^^^to thor

[Cerulean]

Ok, now it's time for me to get off my ass again and do more meta research.

F-16, please get in here and post. Now.

~Empire.

[Cerulean]

Fuck.

Regfan - please don't put deadpool in your blind spot.

Deadpool - ill have some questions for you in a bit that you get to stop ignoring, and want to see f-16's thoughts as well as your updated thought very soon.

[Cerulean]

Oh and I am serious about this not being a rushed day. Yesterday, empire said for us to slow it down and that's what we need to do today.