Open 556: Fire and Ice (Over)

[The_Ascended]

Sorry about inactivity. There's some kinks in getting the hydra set up. Mastin is V/LA until Monday, so I'll start and we'll collect everything in a quoted post by the hydra once we get it sorted out. These are Pasch thoughts alone, not discussed with Mastin.

YurikoJasmine's vote looks like the first legit one. There really doesn't seem to be any justification for voting N_M, and the people doing so know it.

Trickster, why are you afraid of derphammering if you're so sure that N_M is scum to run him close to a lynch on page two?

Why would you discount it like that?

Because he doesn't agree with it and doesn't think it warrants a lynch, duh.

Why would you keep your vote on a wagon you don't agree with?

That's a good question. Why IS your vote still on it, Tman?

You've yet to actually explain why my question was alignment indicative

Fire mafia doesn't care about finding fire mafia, it only wants to find ice mafia and vise versa.

It doesn't matter to town which mafia a player is a part of.. at least not right now. Scum is scum is scum is food for the noose.

I feel like this is a stretch. A big stretch. The question was essentially a comment on the theme. And unless you expected someone to actually answer the question directly, it couldn't possibly gain scum any knowledge. There is no scum-benefiting way for that question to resolve. It's just banter and I don't see it as alignment indicative at all.

Trickster and Moonlight definitely look town, but I think they're barking up the wrong tree. I think Tman's reaction is much more suspect than N_M's question, and the Moonlight vote is just dumb.

I wouldn't give Midget at townread. Of four posts, only one is content, and it's a weak meta comment.

Finglove also needs to give reasons for his votes and comment on how things are unfolding. Pasch does not like naked votes.

VOTE: Tman

Hydra'd!

[The_Ascended]

Trickster, why are you afraid of derphammering if you're so sure that N_M is scum to run him close to a lynch on page two?

Because I'd still like to get as much out of today as possible. I don't like early lynches.

That was a comment on how sure you seem to be on so little information.

How good would you say you are at playing town D1?

I'm good at calling out bad wagons.

I feel like this is a stretch. A big stretch. The question was essentially a comment on the theme. And unless you expected someone to actually answer the question directly, it couldn't possibly gain scum any knowledge. There is no scum-benefiting way for that question to resolve. It's just banter and I don't see it as alignment indicative at all.

Have you played this setup before?

I have, as scum. While you seem to think that the question demonstrated the mindset that N_M was coming from, I don't think it was anything more than a page one comment without meaning. But in what weird universe would anyone answer such a question? The only way that it helps scum to ask that is if someone answers. And if it doesn't really help scum to ask it, then I don't see the scum-motivation, and I don't see the scum-mindset that you do. I don't think one would have to be scum to essentially ask the common opening question "are you scum", but tailor it to the specific theme of the game.

Don't be so high and mighty. It's disrespectful and all it's going to do is piss off your allies and make them not want to work with you.

[The_Ascended]

I'm with Bez here, Tricky is trying far too hard. The 'town shouldn't worry about whether they are going after fire/ice' is such an easy reason to go after someone, especially when it probably didn't mean anything. It's going after daft things, and making them bigger than they are so you look like you are contributing. What Moony did in the last game.

I think it's worked pretty well so far. There's been plenty of discussion, and I think Moon and Trickster are looking pretty town. If you think we should be discussing something else, please provide a topic.

because he's trying to buddy you. started at 14 and has continued.

Active town players tend to agree with each other. Until day 3 or so when they start ripping each other's heads off.

also, early read list. always a bad sign.

Please justify this assertion.

Hello there, Pasche.

;3

Oh this'll be fun. ^_^ Also, my first hydra!

NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.

You'd think that trying to get things going would be a good thing.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

What do you think of him without the influence of past games?

Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.

tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.

Agreed on both counts.

Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.

I really don't like over-reliance on meta. It assumes that people have far more concrete tells than they really do. Plus it's difficult to check, and leads to "trust me" moments. I do not trust so easily.

Scum is either dumb and on Tr1ckster wagon or smart and off of it. All smart players on Tr1ckster wagon we consider town for the moment, all dumb players on Tr1ckster wagon give us a scumread.

There are two votes on Trickster and they're both pretty dumb. Why is Baezu a better vote than Boro?

Actually, I don't like the amount of dependence on past play present in the game at the moment. From pretty much all directions. It's a new game. People can change drastically from game to game. A lot of these comments about meta have been made off of a single game. Do you know how inaccurate your results are likely to be if you base your conclusions off of a sample size of one? It's as if the moderators picked a game at random from a type of setup and based their analysis of that setup off of that single game. If they picked the one game with a perfect town win they might decide that setup was horribly imbalanced and decide to never run it again. That setup could be perfectly balanced, there were just horrible scum or excellent town in that one specific game.

In statistics an analysis is not admittable unless you have at least 10. 10. 1 is far from enough. Please stop basing your reads off of a single game.

QFT

I'll discuss signatures for our posts when Mastin gets back. Until Monday, all posts are by Pasch.

[The_Ascended]

Actually, that's not what he was trying to do:

I was referring to you and Moonlight. I don't think there's such a thing as "trying too hard" to get things going. Getting things going is good. Ergo, N_M and Boro's votes are suspect.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

What do you think of him without the influence of past games?

Same thing I did the first time I played with him; I want to townread him, and at the same time I'm a bit cautious because it's strange to develop a proper read that early on someone.

I spent that first game in a cycle of "Tricks can't be scum" and "Wait, this is so unlike him, something's up". I trusted him enough to work with him, but not enough to ever stop re-examining my read (which always ended with me finding many more things I liked than things I disliked).

And from his posts it seems the feeling is mutual.

I agree with his opinion on every game being different and his question for NM.

I like it. Carry on.

I think we should be discussing "Is Tricky scum"

Okay. Discuss it.

UNVOTE: Tman

I like his catch up post.

[The_Ascended]

Pedit: Whose catchup post?

Yours. Your post 113.

I have mixed feelings about going after lurkers. The nature of the setup and the plurality lynch rule give scum even more reason to not want to stand out, but at the same time it's something scum might use and call it "scumhunting". >_>

Anyone delaying too obviously in an attempt to push towards a plurality lynch will stand out pretty hard, though.

I don't know whether I love this or hate this

Right!? Maybe Mastin and I will do this when she gets back.

There's a difference between jokey/rubbish reasons in RVS and latching on to something rubbish to go 'omg I got us out of RVS towncred please' with.

Agreed. Not necessarily agreed that Trickster is doing the latter, but agreed that there is a difference and that difference is important.

Am I scum then? Make your case on me.

VOTE: BoroPhil

If you're legitimately trying to lynch him over his avatar, yeah that would be pretty scummy. But that's not what you're doing.

To everyone else: Why is building a case based on bad reasoning a scumtell? Are you scumhunting or are you just after players whose play you disagree with? Are you just hoping that those players just happen to be scum?

You don't always catch scum for the right reasons.

Town should, ideally, be making reasonable cases that fit the facts. If one must distort the facts or rely on fallacies to make a case, then one is likely not correct or genuinely trying to be. Town should actively be avoiding making bad cases, and since scum's cases are necessarily false, their cases should be distinguishable. This is, of course, ideally, rather than practically. I don't have a good rule of thumb for the practical reality, only for how I think the game ought to be played.

You don't always catch scum for the right reasons, but when you employ the wrong reasons, you catch (mislynch) town a lot.

THIS IS

NOT

TOWN TR1CKSTER

I don't care what anyone says

VOTE: Tr1ckster

I'm parking my vote here for the rest of the day

And we should just trust you on this... why?

When Mastin catches up on this we're going to get the wallingest wall ever to wall

I'm looking forward to it.

Scumread on NM

How come? Also, can Who use a darker green? That light green makes my eyes bleed.

I don't like the way you're telling us what to do as if you've been playing longer, Tr1ck. I'm not upset for his illegitimate vote, and I don't think No one is either. He's just voting people he doesn't like instead of scum, and hiding in the background and lurking like a scummy bastard. Step off.

Vi, voting him because he's doing something you like is ironic. Let's VOTE: Zeph instead.

Fine...

This kind of dissonance should be sorted out before you post. It could definitely be a way to disguise ulterior motives.

you'll find I'm pretty straight up. If I vote for someone, it's because they are scummy. I don't mess around and play games.

you are confusing (deliberately or otherwise) 'not liking' with 'finding scummy'

I'm voting for Tricky because he is scummy, not because I don't like him.

If I was voting for the person I least liked, it would be that obnoxious multi-headed thing.

Even if he seemed initially scummy, has Trickster's play continued along that line? I would say that the early push was not indicative of his whole play.

Pasch's townreads: Trickster, Moonlight, Not_Mafia

Pasch's weaker townreads: 4 heads, IDK, Baezu

People Pasch thinks need to do more: Midget, Yuriko, Finglove, Tman

Pasch's fairly weak scumreads: Boro, Zeph

I'm honestly inclined to just sheep Moonlight. He seems to be the most level-headed and clearly pro-town. But I'll wait until Mastin gets back tomorrow and can share her thoughts.

[The_Ascended]

Yo.

I'll be hydraing with Pasch this game. It's his first time, so bear with him.
I'm recovering from a couple things and am essentially a guest in this game, so also bear with me for a bit; it'll probably take a little bit of time for us to figure out dynamics and all that.

[The_Ascended]

P-EDIT: Oh look, Pasche's buddy showed up. That's nice.

Showed up, but won't be playing until tomorrow. I need to rest.

[The_Ascended]

...You know you've signed up to do some serious work when the main topic of discussion is of the moral and ethical implications of hydras rather than the specific alignment of a player.

[The_Ascended]

I'm just going to do some kneejerk reaction catchup notes in here.

Spoiler: So probably massively out of synch with Pasch

This is going to be interesting, Trickster and Moonlight :L

First instinct is that this is scum.

Blushing... red... fire mafia... lynch it

And that this is town.

Blushing... red... fire mafia... lynch it

Fire's orange. The really hot stuff is blue.
Fallacious argument.
Lynch it.

My thoughts are also that this was scum,

Mmm, lots of familiar faces.

I want to vote Not_Mafia already and we haven't even started. D:

And so was this, but I'm not exactly sure, especially given the method of confirming.

God I hope Moonlight is scum again.

This struck me as insanely town, though.

My feelings about both slots continue in their next posting. The basic summary of it is that I feel like BoroPhil is nice and relaxed town, whereas Moonlight feels a bit uptight, as if scum.

Hello, Trickster, Burke, Moonlight, Zeph, and Boro. I recently read part of the game you four played recently.

And, for something completely different, Not_Mafia seems to be trying to subliminally influence us into thinking that they are not mafia.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

I got a similar vibe from this, too.

So my page one impression, summarized:
A scum feeling from tman2nd and Moonlight, with a potential scum feeling from Trickster; a town feeling from BoroPhil and Not_Mafia. Though my first instinct on Zeph was scum, unlike the others (which I feel somewhat permanently, as in, the feelings aren't just a split-second instinct), the instinct faded and hasn't moved one way or another.
Just my page one impression, and this is of course before talking to Pasch.

[The_Ascended]

Spoiler: Second impressions

Still kneejerk, but on later pages.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

First instinct on this is town.

OH HEY ITS THESE GUYS I KNOW THESE GUYS.
Good to see you again Tricks, Moonlight and Zephrus. Wait a minute!
Zephyrus
phyr
fyr
fire

Vote Zephryus

With this one, it's difficult to tell, but I do get a very slight initial impression of it being town, albeit much weaker than most initial impressions.

Following a wagon so soon?

vote: finglove

So I know that using interactive tells so soon off of so little is a bad idea, but I did it anyway. This post was nulltown, but it was these two pushing her that made me think she's town.

Initial reads:
Scum:
tman2 - why question a wagon and mark it as worthless and keep your vote on it?
Not_Mafia - why worry about who's which mafia?

Null:
finglove - please explain rvs vote.
YurikoJasmine - questions wagon. why?

Town:
Moonlight - seems townie, asks good questions. typical moonlight game start confidence.
randomidget - notes good things

My initial read was...scum. My second read is...still scum, but legitimately scumhunting, and not scum with tman2. Maybe scum with Moonlight, maybe scum thinking Moonlight's town, difficult to say.

Of course, that assumes accuracy about the tman2/Moonlight reads. The tman2 read definitely does hold, though.

@Tricks: I agree with your scumreads and I can't believe that people are calling this a random voting stage when there's a 4-vote wagon.

Actually, this makes me strongly think Moonlight's scum with tman2, because "people" is essentially only tman2.

And by the way--this feels like

exactly

the same Not_Mafia as my previous game with him. (Rather, the same NotMafia, just better slightly, having taken my advice I think.) I don't really know what his scumgame is, but if this is it, I would be thoroughly impressed; it is really, really town-looking.

And by the way, my overall tone this game is going to be as relaxed and soothing as I can make it be, since that's the kind of environment that I need right now. Low-stress, low push, not playing at full capacity and more casually scumhunting.

So my page 3 summary is similar to Pasch's, though with a slightly different take.
I agree about tman2 being scummy, and liked Pasch's questioning of Trickster and calling out of Moonlight, though I'm of course a bit disappointed he thought them town in spite of that. Ah, well. We'll work out the chinks after I get caught up. I do like his direction, though.

[The_Ascended]

Spoiler: And impressions continue

Tricks is a playing a very similar game to the game he played when he was town. So yeah.

I disagree. He seems way more confident and town-leader in this game than he was in the game I modded. I don't think learning can be applied that quickly so I'm tending to lean scum on him. Which game are you referring to, RM?

This actually helps prove my point. What happened to your RQS? If you're town you wouldn't mind garnering that attention but as scum, you prob want to maintain a lower profile

So I've gained a fair amount of respect for Baezu's scumgame, especially since this is a multiscum game and Baezu could be legitimately scumhunting even as scum. However, between these and the previous post to this, my initial impression of Baezu

is

a townread.

VOTE: tman

VOTE: finglove

Mighta gotten it backwards, or half/half. Still think those three are scum, since that's just the general vibe I've gotten from their posting. They seem like they're legitimately scumhunting, sure, but their whole approach seems to be focused on playing town, but not too town, and not actually being town. That's just the feeling I got, though.

vote 4 heads

If they had been reading through the thread, they would know that we were out of RVS. Mafia lazy? Also, not really sure how I am buddying.

Though I think the vote is misguided, I do feel like this comes from town.

Town-read on Tr1ckster.

VOTE: Baezu

I disagree with my other heads, scumread on Tr1ckster.

The gimmick will probably grow old, I'm sure, but I actually liked this dissonance entrance into the game. I can understand seeing things other ways, but it felt really sincere to me.

To sum up: townread on Tricks and Pasch, scumread on tman, null on everyone else but I'm paying NM, midget and Jasmine extra attention.

And I really didn't like this readslist. Basically most of it felt like, well...scum scumhunting, rather than town scumhunting.

Actually, I don't like the amount of dependence on past play present in the game at the moment. From pretty much all directions.

You do realize this includes you, right? And how you've interacted with others, especially about Moonlight?

Moonlight seems town to me. So, does Trick even though I get a weird feeling from some of his posts.

Secret conspiracy theory: The mod lied. This game's not Fire & Ice. There's only three scum, all on a single team, comprised of these three, interacting this way.

Anyway, initial thoughts:
-Not_Mafia seems pretty town. Their first post about the "Are you Fire or Ice?" just seems like some RVS fun, nothing scum-motivated.
-Tr1ckster and Moonlight really seemed to jump on that RVS "reasoning" as a scumtell, and that seems pretty (the word is escaping my mind atm so I'll just say: ) suspicious, but I agree with Ascended: their other posts seem pretty town, they're just barking up the wrong tree

So I was thinking idk was town at this point.

-Finglove obviously is suspect for just dropping in with a bandwagon vote and no other comment

...And then I went, "Hmmm......",

-Tman's not liking the Not_Mafia wagon but keeping his vote there is really annoying, and I do not like his most recent post, specifically his reasoning for keeping his vote on N_M.

...And thought, "I really shouldn't be not-liking this...but I'm really not liking this."

My BoroPhil townread has strengthened, as have my feelings that Finglove is town (midget also slightly more town to me). tman is still a suspect of mine, but admittedly not as much of one. And I have my eye on idk.

@Tricks:

5) No quoting any private communication or PMs, including your role PM. No using invisible text,

spoiler tags

, or encryption codes. Violation of this rule will result in a modkill.

Bolded the important part.

I realize the moderator has made a rule, but seeing as how it's a stupid-ass rule, I've elected to ignore it.
/how to actually use Nick Fury quotes.
*cough*
The mod hasn't clarified that rule, yet, so I'll stop using spoiler tags until it is, butyeah. Stupid rule is stupid, so here's to hoping the mod rules it as just that.

[The_Ascended]

I don't like the way you keep defending tricks. You guys seem to have some unwritten communication going on that's setting off alarm bells. Either you're mafia together or one of you is "tricking" the other and you know my opinion on which of you it is

This slot basically picked up on the same things I did, soyeah. Insanely town, there.

Zeph could be scum, though.

Or they're undermining us and they're actually in the same scum team. Just a theory though

This feels like it was thrown in as an afterthought of, "Oh, hey, should probably post something that sounds like it wasn't made from the opinion of a scum player," if that makes sense.

I honestly don't see N_M as mafia because of the early interaction atm. Fin has not done anything I think is scummy. Tman would be the scummiest of the three that have been talked most about but I think scum is still hiding atm. Ima try to look for scum in the people who have not been at the forefront bc that's where I think they are atm

Also very town, since my thinking is right along these same veins. Not_Mafia is a fairly strong townread, and Finglove a decent one, too. And tman isn't exactly a strong read either way; while gun to my head, it's still a scumread, it's far more ambivalent-null.

I'd also like to point out without quote spamming that I basically see Not_Mafia and BoroPhil (with a Baezu assist) pwning Moonlight/Trickster (with a 4heads assist) in the debate they were having. A debate that over the course of the pages, I'm finding myself going, "Yep. Not_Mafia/BoroPhil/Baezu town, and also raising fair point; Moonlight/Trickster not so town, making not so great. (Oh, and 4heads probably town, but still not posting great.)"

[The_Ascended]

Yup. Everyone jump on my wagon. I'm the easy lynch. You won't look scummy at all for pushing the easy lynch.

Again. Insanely town mindset, here. I'll probably be asked to explain after I get caught up, though that'll have to wait. (Running a bit short on time at the moment.)

When Mastin catches up on this we're going to get the wallingest wall ever to wall

Thus, the usage of spoiler tags I wanted, and why I'm not quoting everything I agree with and everything I disagree with and why.

Still not liking idk's posting, which ironically is making me like tman's posting. And then I get things like this that make me re-evaluate that stance.

Gun to my head, I'd say idk-scum and tman-newbtown, though both being scum (opposite) isn't impossible and both being town also isn't impossible.

Sure, let's fucking lynch anyone we don't like instead of lynching who we believe is more likely to flip scum.

Does make me wonder about the possibility of a Moonlight-Zeph team, though.

I actually liked Zeph's reaction here, though.

I deeply understand 4heads's reaction here, and it increases my townread there quite strongly, even though I'm not sure I really agree with the conclusion that Zeph not doing anything = Zephscum. Could be, sure. Actually is, not so sure.

I'm still townreading Tricks, though his defense of Zeph got me curious and thinking that

if

he is scum, Zeph is a probable buddy.

Well, this is ironic.
I will say this, though, that of my initial scumreads between the two of Moonlight/Trickster, if one of them is wrong, it's almost certainly the Moonlight one. Not sure he's town, though, but aside from the irony bit, I actually really like that post.

Will tackle and continue my readthrough from Baezu's readslist.

[The_Ascended]

I think you're hyper focusing too much and seem too agreeable with a lot of things.

I strongly disagree with this assessment of BoroPhil; his posting has seemed to have struck the perfect balance of focus and is anything but agreeable. Agreeable posting = basically everything Moonlight/Trickster have been doing, with a dash of 4heads. While BoroPhil's got allies supporting him, he's not agreeing with them, so much as they're augmenting each other.

Moon- I didn't really like your reads list bc it didn't give too much new info but your posting feels town.

I also picked up the opposite impression; Moonlight's posting feels like scum, but the reads list seemed to be coming from town.

Does anyone know if this is his playstyle?

I do, and yes it's town.

Hasn't posted much content.

One reason that he could be scum, but overall, the content I DO see looks town.

Tman- posts are scummy but he just seems like classic mislynch material. Such easy picking for scum. I've been in his position before so I am very familiar with what's going on. Town

Basically what I'm feeling right now.

Interesting reads, Baezu. That's good. I think I agree with a good bit of that.

Wanna vote for one of them?

Case n point.

I don't feel like any of the four (aside from possibly Zeph) are realistically going to flip scum.

That 180 turn from Baezu and Trick is supporting her now. Scum team?

No, scum buddying town. You might be on a scumteam, though, for this.

Kinda want to vote Trickster, but again, catching up, will need to talk to Pasch, and whatnot.

[The_Ascended]

Now go back and reexamine your reads. Then find out who you disagree with. Don't yell at the person you disagree with, ask them questions about the places you disagree. Calmly, civilly, talk through the differences.
THen, when things have been more resolved, you can vote again.

So from what I can gather, a fair number of the townreads are from Trickster posting things like this, correct? Things that sound pro-town, well-informed, reasonable, good ideas, and which further a town wincon, right?

...The problem with them is that these things are essentially things that you can recite from a Book of Mafia. (Especially if you read up on Mastin MD. ) As in, he's basically saying things that he can say as either alignment, that while looking good...don't actually do any good. His delivery of them doesn't have any passion behind them; it sounds like exactly what I said: a cold, dispassionate pre-prepared (well, probably not, but close enough) speech, given to address the crowd in order to gain their favor, that costs him nothing and gives him a gain.

Like, it seriously feels as if he's just quoting from random MD threads of mine, thinking that saying my advice inside the game thread will look pro-town. (And it does...look pro-town. Doesn't actually mean it IS pro-town; pro-town usage is to

incorporate

the advice, give specific directions, to basically have passion behind the words. And he has none.)

That's basically been my main problem with him, I suppose.

idk looks worse for 312, by the way.

and by calling me a loose cannon I think you betray the fact you know I am town.

^Exact thought I had.

Moonlight, take your head out of Tricky's arse, step back, and actually try and look objectively at what he is posting?

Leaving all of the other stuff aside from the start, he has now misrepped me and now is voting for me with reasons he can't substantiate and his only responses are 'rest my case' and 'oh it would be a waste of time'. how covenient!

A fairly accurate summary of basically one of the main things that I've thought about Trickster all day. His posting does a good job of looking town to make you like him. It really, really doesn't look like town.

Semi off topic; I'd love nothing more for postgame lulz than for Trickster and Moonlight to be on opposite scumteams who are both trying to captalise on their dynamic to get townread

Indeed. (Though if I'm honest with myself, Moonlight is probably town.)

Ah good. I figured Mastin'd try to set you straight anyways...

Set Moonlight straight on what?
The townread of you?

...

VOTE: Tr1ckster.
Like, I need to leave (and will continue reading from that post when I return), but...I'm not sure I can read that statement in any other way.
/almost made it, but alas. Not quite caught up.

[The_Ascended]

I'm still waiting for someone to debunk my theory that you can't be scum due to what I said in 369. Any takers?

Yeah, it's a hell of a reach and doesn't look like a slip at all. Nor does it look like a doc claim.

No one would believe a doc claim from him when he has called himself a VT without realizing it.

What I forgot about though is that you (and now Mastin too) townslipped by thinking that Tricks "knows" you're Town. (Because the scum don't know who the Townies are in this setup.)

Again, not a slip, just something people say when they think scum are attacking them. It doesn't mean it's genuine. It doesn't mean that it's some kind of break from the setup. Honestly, I don't get when people think that making a mistake about the setup is a town thing to do. I've made mistakes about setups as both alignments, even once on purpose, and always seem to get towncred for it. Mistakes are just mistakes, not the subconscious struggling to get out.

I'm torn on Moonlight readflipping on Trickster here, the posting itself feels very organic, however the timing of it bothers me, plus he strikes me as a player with the ability to look organically town with his posting

Maybe a little too organic.

[The_Ascended]

Also, what's the deal with Yuriko and Finglove? Prods? Replacements? Something?

[The_Ascended]

Hm. Nice catch there, Moon. I was beginning to get suspicious because, you know.. you only read a couple people as scum... but you only read two people as a scum team... and you only pressed for lynches on those two people.

And your point is? There's nothing deceptive or malicious about not having exactly as many scumreads as there are scum. Forcing a player into the label just to fit the numbers is more dishonest.

------------

Pasch here!

I could be on board with the Trickster lynch, but I'd really prefer to wait until Mastin can weigh in.

UNVOTE: Trickster

To be replaced or moved once we've discussed it.

[The_Ascended]

Mastin is MIA, so Pasch will continue all by his lonesome.

I don't like his answer. My problem isn't having only two scum reads...

It's having only two scum reads and reading them as a team.

And then not really looking for scum anywhere else.

I try to make my scumreads independent of each other, especially in early game. Scum don't always (or often) work together in a noticeable way.

You've never seen me lie about my reads before?

This is a clearly pro-town action and makes me not want to lynch you. Know when I lie about my reads? When I'm scum.

I have to say that, although he wasn't as much earlier, this is very much town Tr1cks. Valid points on Moon's meta as well. I'm really struggling to read those two.

So then who should we lynch?

Vote Finglove

They have posted in other Open games, but not this one. Lurking scum alert.

Yeah... lurker vote. Compelling!

There was a big argument involving you. The majority of players reacted to this. I basically have two sets of scumreads, and your flip will help decide which one I think is right.

In case you die tonight, why not share these ideas with us now? Also, how exactly does Finglove lurking tie into this?

-----------------

I'm interested in the new developments since my unvote, but Trickster is still very much under suspicion.

[The_Ascended]

can someone who isn't me or not comment on this?

What is "this"?

[The_Ascended]

So I told Pasch this last night; I think I found out why I've been having trouble getting back into the game since I started, and it basically boils down to a guess that the reason I've been having issues is that I've been feeling pressured and treating this as an obligation, rather than as for casual fun as it was when I started. I THINK I've gotten more into that casual mindset, now, which'll make it easier for me to get back into the game.

I was on page fifteen, and I don't particularly remember my thoughts, and whatever they are, they're going to be out of step with Pasch, but hey, this is better than nothing, soyeah, will be catching up.

[The_Ascended]

Not really liking this post by Zeph.

4heads's posting might not be inherently town by argument, but by tone is bleeding town.

Liking Borophil's posting here, too.

Cool. So you have a bunch of... feelings? Err.. can you explain them please? Is there a reason for these feelings?

That's the thing about feelings, they kinda are called feelings because they really don't have much reason.

Yeah, I probably did have some inking of reasoning behind the feelings, but it's just instinctive reactions to things, without going in-depth to analyze them more strongly, basically. The plan (which fell utterly into shambles) was to get caught up and just have my initial reactions, and then to reanalyze the content after talking to Pasch and get more in-depth content. In-depth content probably isn't going to come from me given that it's ~stress~ that I really don't need right now, but we'll see. I'm basically winging it at the moment and will figure it out as I go.

And the reason you're using feelings is because you can't debate them or work with people's feelings.

Actually, as scum one of my strengths as a player is on explaining feelings clearly. Assuming scum use feelings because they can't be debated is an incredibly one-dimensional take on the game. It might have been a valid argument at some ancient point in site history, but even by 2008 was an ambiguous-at-best argument.

Trickster they're just page 1 reads, you seem... jumpy

This.

Your unnecessarily defensive interaction with Mastin's early game reads just reels of bad omgus to me

This, too.

How strong would you say your reads are at this point, mastin?

Scale of 1 to 10, 1 being absolute zero and 10 being confscum, probably a two or three.

There's no such thing as a relaxed, soothing scumhunt. I think mastin of all people would know that.

Ah, but there is. It's one of the things that became a defining trait of my first alt, even. Mastin played seriously, but I enjoyed my games on my alt more because they were more casual. (When said alt became more serious, I discontinued playing on it for that reason.) Playing without the stress or feeling of obligation is incredibly soothing. I play offsite on a site that does take mafia seriously, but at the same time, is friendly and more casual. The game at its most serious over there is a game at an average level on here, meaning that I feel quite relaxed.

Not only is it a stress reliever, but it also helps my accuracy, I've found. Pressure to be right ironically increases the chances of being wrong. /rambling.

Please explain why you think N_M's game is town.

Well, while I've not seen NotMafia's scumgame...I have seen NotMafia's towngame, and his play this game has seemed exactly like it. I can follow his thoughts clearly, and they look solid, coming from a town mindset and motivated by finding scum, not surviving.

Kinda the opposite of how I feel about you, really. Your thoughts, not so easy to see clearly, and they feel survivalistic.

But even if you think that, there is stuff that's so outdated it's not helpful to discuss it anymore.

It's true that catching up can bring up a fair amount of irrelevant topics, but it is useful to do all the same--it's not just for bringing up things that can be discussed about earlier aspects of the game. (For the record, early-game is one of the strongest indicators of alignment in my experience in general.) It's also helpful for showing where a player has come from, as mentioned already.

Had mastin been any other player, I would townread them as misguided/confused town or VI. But mastin is a highly respected as an excellent mafia player, so I read her as scum right now.

Oh, Trickster. I have no doubts that, your alignment regardless, you do believe the things you're spewing. But take it from the person who wrote most of the articles you're plagiarizing from. You really don't know what you're talking about. Regardless of whether I would be town or scum, I do.

Define the difference between scum scumhunting and town scumhunting?

Easy. Scum are scumhunting the other scum faction, to get them lynched and be in the favorable position. However, they don't want to risk getting nightkilled, nor do they themselves wish to be lynched. Their relationships are therefore more delicate and precise, because one slip-up in any direction will go badly for them. Additionally, they have inside information, and thus, have a bit of an edge over town players, and are going to be using that edge.

Town scumhunting are scumhunting without any idea of who is scum and which faction is which and who is on which faction and whatnot. Nor do they particularly care--they're looking to get scum lynched, and it doesn't matter which. At least not on day one, anyway. They aren't really concerned about getting nightkilled (aside from the doctor, it's an honor!), nor do they actively think about the possibility they might get lynched. Their relationships are therefore more chaotic, random, and indecisive, lacking precision and clear direction.

I think there's a lot to be said for hearsay. It can say a lot about the source.. and the source can say a lot about it.

Thus my fondness for alts (and to some extent, hydras) in which none exists about me. You'd be surprised at how many alternative accounts I've made, simply to dodge the expectations of me. 2012 or so onward seem to see me as a goddess overall, 2009 and earlier overall still think me a VI, and the gap between them are coincidentally where most of my friends are player-wise since they seem me as...just another player.

That said, I've read her "Mastin Academy" or most of it, anyways...And her play right now makes me think scum.

This'll be interesting. Tell me what in my lectures made you conclude my play this game was scum?

You enjoy her having a scum read on you? *raises eyebrow* We think very differently, my friend. Very differently indeed.

It could be scum glad to see first-hand how they're getting caught, or town glad to see first-hand how I come to conclusions even if they're wrong (perhaps even a thrill at seeing me be wrong), but overall, it's probably just hero worship in effect and not alignment indicative. (Though my gut-reaction to it would be scum glad to see how they've been caught.)

I'm flattered you think I'm pro-town.

Not what I said. Appearing pro-town is different from BEING pro-town. Appearing pro-town = putting on a show, an act. Being pro-town = the real thing.

Play on MS.net is not so shallow and two-dimensional that the player posting the objectively-most-scummy things is scum and the player posting the objectively-most-town things is town. It is a necessity to read the driving force behind why they are posting that way. And I concluded (and am still kinda concluding) that yours comes from scum.

You make me think of another player on a site I came from. He knew how to make you look scummy for voting for the scummiest player, and you seem to be trying to make me look like scum for being the towniest player (which I'm not.) He was scum that game, by the way.

(Personal pet peeve of mine, by the way. Basically, referencing past games to bolster your presence in the current game. It's something I've references time and time again as being slightly scummy but not necessarily from scum. And I just now realized, thinking about it at this very moment, that it's been a known flawed point for years. The current variation is different from the original, but this is essentially invoking 7-for-7 with a touch of "No True Scotsman" as a valid argument: "I saw this trait in a previous game. It came from scum.", which ignores the reasoning behind having done the move as that alignment.)

... If Tricks is scum, he was looking to get off his buddy's wagon.

I'll be damned. D:

Just want to say that while this progression of thought could come from scum (the tone is not exactly full of ~passion~), it felt really, really genuine and legitimate, and very likely to come from town as a result. It sorta feels like an, "I TRUSTED YOU!!!" moment, feeling as if you've been backstabbed; the paranoia ranting resulting from it looked crazily-sincere.

It also showed a fair amount of effort--and it didn't look like effort to get a mislynch or justify a change in read. It looked like effort put in, in an, "Oh, god, please let me be wrong," type of way. Which makes me heavily think town for Moonlight.

I'm torn on Moonlight readflipping on Trickster here, the posting itself feels very organic, however the timing of it bothers me, plus he strikes me as a player with the ability to look organically town with his posting

Basically this, though I think town overall.

You're letting your paranoia take control of you. Get a hold of yourself.

Eh. I don't really want to play anymore. *sigh* Ah well. I'll keep playing. I just lost all my enthusiasm.

If you do end up lynching me, Moon, and live to D2, keep an eye on mastin for me, alright?

This also feels really, really flat to me.

Especially given the pressure.

I tend to be far more confident and aggressive.

The problem with these is that your play is anything but aggressive about it. You basically feel as if you've resigned yourself to it, flatly, rather than fighting against it strongly. There's an FoS of Moonlight, but no feeling of being backstabbed, of having been betrayed. Basically, you're saying your town self would have ~passion~, and...you're showing none.

Would you describe this as ATF Tricky? I think I would.

More AtE than AtF, but yes, an appeal flatly delivered to manipulate emotions is how I read it. It simply doesn't feel nearly as sincere.

Mastin: What would your read on Moon be if I flip town?

Well, given that my reads are basically made entirely separate from one another, especially right now? Whatever my read on Moonlight would be if you flip scum. The thing about that is that I can't tell you what my read on Moonlight would be because I don't know what it'd be.

[The_Ascended]

Oops.
That was long and messy.
At least it was at the bottom of a page?

I'll try to clean my next catchup post.

[The_Ascended]

Please familiarize yourself with my rules here

Um. The post linked to shows it last being edited by Bwburke.

Not mafia has posted a lot of very short posts, which I find pretty scummy. Seeming content, but very little actual interaction with people. You can keep my vote for the moment.

I like early claim for trickster. Don't want to see this lynch if there's a viable alternative.

Don't see Zeph as particularly scummy either.

Moonlight as a townread for now.

Ok, brains about to fry so more later/tomorrow!

Might be scum, here.
However, this (and to some extent, part one before it) looked town to me.

Really liked midget's post, and this is an incredibly original stance to take, which is a very good sign for being town.
This post, though, is very very bad.
Overall, still liking midget for town. This was another good insight, too.

The_Ascended are my strongest townread. I also like Baezu, NM and Boro.

Not sure what to make of the buddying from Moonlight here. (Should read the full wall, but not now.) Kinda still think town.

@Ascended
If I'm not scum, who do you think is? And why do you only have two people down as scum?

I don't really have even two; I barely have one. Still sorting everyone, even though I've got a fair number of townreads. I think that's how the game will be won, really. Townreads and POE to narrow in on scum.

I have to say that, although he wasn't as much earlier, this is very much town Tr1cks. Valid points on Moon's meta as well. I'm really struggling to read those two.

About the time of this post? Moonlight's alright, but not stellarly good, feeling much weaker than before. Trickster is much better than he has been (I see some passion, though not sure if it's ~passion~ and also not sure it's alignment-indicative passion), but also not great.

Having mixed feelings still about idk.

Technically caught up, but MASSIVELY skimmed. Anything I didn't address specifically I'll do on request. Trying to compile a most town to least town list right now. (I'm not going to even bother separating them into town/null/scum.)

[The_Ascended]

Baezu
Not_Mafia
BoroPhil
randomidget/Moonlight
Moonlight/randomidget (about equally on the town half)
4 Heads of Insanity (honestly, about equal to them, too)
YurikoJasmine
Finglove
Zephyrus
tman2nd
idk
Tr1ckster

Something like this. But it doesn't feel right. Best I have right now, off of my casual catch-up. I'll need to do more later.

[The_Ascended]

AtF = appeal to fear.
Though you'd think fear would count as a generic emotion, an AtF is different from an AtE, because AtE is often appealing to some emotions, generally sympathetic ones, whereas an AtF is trying to garner fear of a specific outcome in order to manipulate.

...Uh. This is not a very solid description. I might be good at theory, but I'm not a god of theory, so don't quote me on this quick definition. I could be wrong about this, but it's more or less my personal understanding.

[The_Ascended]

Spoiler: Rambling stuff

This is kind of a derail, but I want to ask: why do most people give a fuck about "what is expected"?

On MS.net, it's known as meta. More or less because of that. Mafia's essentially a game of humanity--specifically, figuring out the drives of other humans and if they're a piece of a mask (from either alignment) or not, essentially. Meta's the easiest and simplest way of explaining it.

You can look at this thread and players in it to see what's expected of me. I'm actually only a mediocre town player. (Though my accuracy is higher in multiball than in normal games, weirdly enough.) My academic works make most players (yourself and Trickster from just this game alone--you're not alone) BoP me into thinking I'm better than I am. Sure, I don't suck, but I'm not a god-tiered scumhunter.

You'd think that wouldn't get into your mind, but it does. I know myself to be that mediocre player, but in spite of knowing the reputation to not be true, I feel pressured to live up to the reputation all the same. Know that trope? I can't recall its name off the top of my head. But it's where there's someone, thought to be a hero, who knows they aren't. But when someone who thinks them to be a hero talks to them, it makes them feel guilty. And after that, they turn from being not-a-real-hero into being a real-hero. Fairly common trope in stories. It's basically that. (Except that the attempt to become a hero doesn't actually succeed. )

Basic human psychology: you want to be as good as you're perceived to be, even if you feel you aren't actually that skilled. Thus, why I got into the wrong mindset. Easy trap to fall into. Now I talk about this in terms of skill and mindset, essentially. When it comes to actual PLAYING, then when you're a town player, you should not fear what is expected of your town self--that's your job as scum. When it comes to seeing what you expect of another player, that's using meta, which I touch upon above, but to which there is a long ramble attached.

I've taken an interest in you after finding your academy thread and I'm enjoying the chance of finally getting to play with you.

Sounds an awful lot like hero worship to me.

fuck me, I didn't know I was playing with the mafiascum elite.

You're not, not really anyway. I'm a very good theorist. I can't follow my own dang advice half the time, making me only a decent player. (Well, as town. As scum, I am among the elite.) I might appear to be elite on a glance, and it's gotten me some decent experiences as a result (I enjoy requests to play and/or requests for advice to be given, both of which I receive plenty of), but it requires listening, and not already knowing what I'm speaking of; between the two, you get most of mafiascum's experienced population, in that they either know it already or won't bother listening to it from me.

Baezu
Not_Mafia
4 Heads of Insanity
BoroPhil
randomidget
Moonlight
YurikoJasmine
Finglove
Zephyrus
tman2nd
idk
Tr1ckster

Something like this.

For clarity's sake: this was in fact town to scum. There's some editing to it, but that's largely because things are in a very sad state:
Baezu and Not_Mafia are the only two players I have a rock-solid townread on. 4 heads I strongly believe to be town, but am not 100% on it. BoroPhil I've always had as strongly town, but he's gotten knocked down by a wave of paranoia of him being good scum. randomidget is mostly town, but some posting gives me doubts. Moonlight is similar. Yuriko is basically null, and below that I guess begins the scum-line, and all of this is basically fluctuating by the second. If I retyped this list up ten minutes from now, I imagine my answer would be different.

[The_Ascended]

My interest in her comes purely from how she treats the game, I am not familiar with how she plays and I'm curious to experience that.

As an aside, I did warn you that my play here is more casual than normal, meaning this isn't really a true representation of how I play. It gives a decent glimpse at the process I more or less go through, but it takes a few games (I'd say ~5) before you actually can tell things about me.

Regarding Tricks: If I squint my eyes hard enough, I can almost make out a stubborn Townie that refuses to deal with the situation that his play is being widely scumread.

Not

exactly

this, but I do vaguely see this, too, in that it's possible.

That said, though, I kinda think he should be lynched anyway. One thing you should know about me is that I get much stronger as games progress, and part of that is because I have information from flips--lynches, nightkills, whatever. I'm fairly competent at tracking the mindset behind actions once I have an idea of what is going on. And Trickster is basically a very strong starting point on that analysis. Who the scum kill or don't kill, off of what Trickster flipped and where they themselves were.

I can vaguely map it out if you'd like, but basically, I feel like if he's scum, there's no player getting lynched that would give more info than him, if he's town, then there's no mislynch that would give more info than him, and that while it's possible he's town, that he's our best shot of landing on scum right now.

[The_Ascended]

I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but why are so many townreading Boro so strongly? He's not strongly scummy, but I see him as pretty null. He's engaging with the group and talking, but I don't see much insight from that corner. He makes comments on stuff a lot, and attacks bad arguments (I like this quite a bit), but isn't really fighting

for

very much. This could just be a playstyle issue and that's fine. I'm not saying he's scum or suggesting that anyone vote for him, I just want to know why he's being so strongly townread.

[The_Ascended]

I find Zeph's deviations from the more agreed-upon town and scum reads very interesting. Most of us put NM, Boro, and Baezu near the top. Also us and Moonlight. Zeph puts us, Baezu, and Moonlight at the bottom. No idea why he thinks we and Moonlight are scummy. Meanwhile, almost everyone puts Midget, IDK, and Trickster near the bottom. Zeph has them much closer to the top. The others seem to be a generally null bloc. Zeph's read list is (with the exception of Boro and NM), a complete reversal of the prevailing wisdom.

Zeph, you have a lot of explanations to put forth here. What is it that you think the rest of us are missing on so many players?

[The_Ascended]

I didn't say it made him scum. I said he needs to explain those reads.

[The_Ascended]

Pasch declares intent to hammer.

[The_Ascended]

But would like Zeph to explain his reads a lot more before this day ends.

[The_Ascended]

VOTE: Trickster

I want a lot of explanation tomorrow, Zeph.