Open 621 (C9++): The ZAR SHOW S1 Holiday Special - OVER!

[Yosarian2]

/confirm

[Yosarian2]

unvote

VOTE: ABR

I don't know how to do this, but you know what I mean.

Third on the wagon = scum

vote:Lowell

[Yosarian2]

I don't know if i agree with lowell, but his thinking smells townish.

unvote:lowell

[Yosarian2]

People i don't currently want to lynch becsuse they've done something i like at some point
Lowell
roflcopter
Albert B. Rampage
AlwaysInnocent
kmd4390


Everyone else
shaddowez
2. Lucky2u
3. acryon
4. Kop
6. texcat
8. BlueBloodedToffee
11. Aneninen

List subject to change whenever i feel like it

[Yosarian2]

VOTE: lucky4you

[Yosarian2]

In general, at this point in the game, i tend to townread people who are active and doing intresting things. None of those are especally strong reads, but they all look like they're actually scumhunting in their own way.

[Yosarian2]

Eh. Null read on shadowez at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

People i don't currently want to lynch becsuse they've done something i like at some point
Lowell
roflcopter
Albert B. Rampage
AlwaysInnocent
kmd4390

List subject to change whenever i feel like it

In general, at this point in the game, i tend to townread people who are active and doing intresting things. None of those are especally strong reads, but they all look like they're actually scumhunting in their own way.

I can understand how you could see most of that list as doing some sort of scumhunting, but what is it that ABR has done that interests you?

ABR is basically playing in his normal meta. Loud, obnoxious, picking fights. It's basically how I expect town-ABR to act. It's not really an alignment tell, he could do that as either alignment, but I haven't seen any red flags from him yet.

[Yosarian2]

VOTE: lucky4you

Its a pet peeve when people mess with my name, Yosemite.

Ok.

Meanwhile, you just earned another 10 scum points for posting about how I spelled your name wrong while still not actually interacting with the game at all.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, for similar reasons, because listing all the most active players and giving them "town reads" is a too good way to win friends.

Actually, I did not list all the most active players, just the ones who did something that looked townish to me. There are active players that weren't on that list.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, I find it interesting that Shadow didn't make your "I like something" list after your explanation for it. Your answer that shadow is null seems to imply you aren't aware that shadow has done a lot, yet people are accusing him of try-hard. I'm curious if I'm misreading you cpmpletely or if there is something causing this.

Really, there was a lot more to the list then that. I can go into more detail if people really want, although I wasn't really planning to make a whole production of it this early, especally since this early my reads are likely to change before I finish making this post.

Reasons people made the list:

Lowell: I had just explained why I liked lowell's play.

Rofl: Seemed to have the exact same reaction to lowell's post I did, which is a good sign. (His post 68) Also, I think I know why he made the KMD vote, although KMD is also on my town list.

ABR: Like I said, he's totally in his town meta, and is acting like how I would expect town-ABR to act at this point in the game.

AlwaysInnocent: There are several of his posts I liked. His post 31 gave me good vibes for some reason. Also it feels like he's really scumhunting.

KMD: I really liked the super-earnest way he went after ABR.

And, yeah, in general, we should all be town-reading active players and voting lurkers right now, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just blindly town read everyone who's active without a reason to do so.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, the old completely unnecessary, randomly inserted reads-list. A favourite for scum to look like they have 'reads' and are 'doing things'.

You're just mad that you're not on my good list.

Seriously, figuring out who looks townie and then lynching someone who doesn't is the single most effective way to find scum, especially early. People make the mistake of "looking for people doing something scummy", but that's backwards; scum usually look null-ish if they're at all competent. So instead you need to look for people who are doing something townie and then lynch someone who's not.

Really? I fail to see how this relates to ABR, rofl and AI in any way. Can you elaborate?

I just did. Rofl is super-town right now, AI also looks pretty good.

Let's talk about this vote and why you're ignoring Yos' incorrect statements about your play.

Excuse me? What is "incorrect" about my statements? I've been playing with ABR for many years now, I think I have some idea of what his meta is.

There are several of AI's posts that you liked and you pick one that you can't even explain why you like it? Wanna pick a few others?

At this point in the game, obviously you're not going to have much to go on, and even a mild "I liked that post for some gut reason" is more then enough to move someone up (or down) a catagory. Of course it's likely to change quickly.

But, sure.

His vote for you was a very town-ish move; you were looking scummy at the point he voted for you, and I like that he's thinking the same way I am.

This was also great:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Texcat

For drawing conclusions so quickly.

AlwaysInnocent, you drew a conclusion just as quickly as TexCat.

No, no. I never conclude anything. I only assume things.

Townish, aggressive, trying to scumhunt without fear or excessive caution.

He also changed his vote 4 times by page 4, which, in context, is town-ish and implies scumhunting. He's lurker hunting, which is also pro-town at this stage of the game, and in general his play makes a lot of sense.

Caught up.

VOTE: Yos

This needs to happen now.

This feels like a scummy vote from BBT, but obviously I may be biased here. Not getting a good vibe from his posting in general though.

[Yosarian2]

I don't think roflcopter is "super-town" by the way. His strong positions are based on very little. I wouldn't vote for him, but I'm not yet convinced he is town. He threatened to shoot me this early if he were a vigilante, which is just reckless and bad play (if it was a serious and not just to threaten me).

A little context here: rofl is an alt of a long-time poster. He uses the rofl alt when he wants to play with a certain playstyle; hyperagressive, short posts, bloodthirsty without explaining anything, lynches without warning. Basically the "baby jesus" or "internet stranger" playstyle, although probably half of you don't remember those players. And as a playstyle, it works well for him.

In that context, his posts so far look good to me.

I will say, though, that he can play like this as scum just as well, and he's very skilled at it, so while I have a town read on him at the moment, I very easily could be wrong, he is very tricksy.

[Yosarian2]

So he is manipulating his meta so that people excuse him for his behavior even when he is scum. Just great.

I wouldn't say that. The IS playstyle is an effective one as town as well, if you're good at it. And I don't think it's that hard to get a read on someone using it.


More like, he wanted to try something different without people using his previous meta to attack him, so he made an alt and kept it secret for a while. Nothing wrong with that

[Yosarian2]

I

I note Yos' vociferous defense of AI in 151. My suspicion is that it makes Yos more likely scum and AI more likely town.

Ok, this is getting annoying.

I had absolutly no desire to defend anyone, at least not unless they were is actual danger of being lynched. I was just going to post my reads, and leave it at that. But I had four different people (including you) either attack me for posting reads without explinaton ( you accused me of "town reading everyone active" which was just obviously false, and you ignored me when i pointed that out) or demand i explain my reads in more and more detail. First I just posted a one liner, then I posted a one liner about every player i townread, and then finally i went into more detail on some of my town reads after a fourth person demanded it.

And now I'm being attacked for explaining? What the hell is that?

[Yosarian2]

Seriously, figuring out who looks townie and then lynching someone who doesn't is the single most effective way to find scum, especially early. People make the mistake of "looking for people doing something scummy", but that's backwards; scum usually look null-ish if they're at all competent. So instead you need to look for people who are doing something townie and then lynch someone who's not.

Agreed. This in no way assuages my concerns that you're scum or even responds to my comment about your post though. You side-stepped my issue, well played, but try again.

You claimed it was "scummy to make a list" with absolutely no justification for that fairly bizarre statement (especially since making a list is pretty much a universal behavior from many people irrespective of alignment). Anyway, the only real way to town-hunt is to make a list of people who look town, and then go after people not on the list.

Excuse me? What is "incorrect" about my statements? I've been playing with ABR for many years now, I think I have some idea of what his meta is.

You said ABR was picking fights - I showed you that this was wrong.

How dare you

WE WERE A TEAM

So you want me to town it up for yall or am I playing my normal scummy game?

This is not "playing mildly". He's being deliberately provocative to try to get a reaction from people, which is pretty much what I'd expect.

This was also great:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Texcat

For drawing conclusions so quickly.

AlwaysInnocent, you drew a conclusion just as quickly as TexCat.

No, no. I never conclude anything. I only assume things.

Townish, aggressive, trying to scumhunt without fear or excessive caution.

He also changed his vote 4 times by page 4, which, in context, is town-ish and implies scumhunting. He's lurker hunting, which is also pro-town at this stage of the game, and in general his play makes a lot of sense.

Just because you describe something as 'townish' it doesn't make it so, you just repeat this is townish, this is townish, this is townish. Why were those actions townish?

I think I just explained that?

He's trying to scumhunt, he doesn't care how his scumhunting makes him look, he's aggressive, he's not being cautious. Those are all town traits.

The main difference between town and scum is that town's #1 priority is to find scum, while scum's #1 priority is not being lynched. When a person starts taking risks, being aggressive, and sticking their necks out to try to find scum, apparently without caring how it makes them look, that's a town tell.

Why are you trying so hard to get me to defend AI, anyway? Why do you care so much where my town read comes from? I could understand your play if you thought AI was scum, but as it is, your whole thrust here just looks wierd.

Aggressive is a trait reserved for town now is it? That's a first.

Being aggressive is a townish trait, yes. It's not "reserved for town". Being passive is a scumish trait, although it's not reserved for scum.

If you expect me to come up with 100% reliable town or scum tells in the first 4 pages of the game, then I hate to break it to you, but that's just not how this game works.

Lurker hunting is the easiest form of scum hunting for scum to do, there is nobody to respond to their accusations.

I didn't say lurker hunting was a town tell, i said it was pro-town behavior, which it is.

This feels like a scummy vote from BBT, but obviously I may be biased here. Not getting a good vibe from his posting in general though.

You wanna elaborate on this bad vibe you're getting from my posting and why my vote is scummy? You need to stop stating things like they're fact and start explaining.

I'm going to say things however I want to, in whatever way I want to, and you are going to deal with it.

If you want to know, I think that I posted a list that had you in the "scummy" catagory, and you massivly over-reacted in a pretty irrational way, that didn't really make any sense at all. That makes you look bad.

Not only that, it makes me think that if you do flip scum, that probably most or all of your scum team is also on that scum list I posted, or you wouldn't be trying so hard to discredit me.

Also, you missed the part where I asked you to show me where Kmd was pushing ABR.

Town it up if you are town. Be scummy if you are scum. Like if you are scum, keep buddying people like you have with Yos and BBT already

[Yosarian2]

People make the mistake of "looking for people doing something scummy", but that's backwards; scum usually look null-ish if they're at all competent. So instead you need to look for people who are doing something townie and then lynch someone who's not.

Your logic is bad and you should feel bad. ^_^

No, it's not.

In my experence, town usually lose to semi-active scum who fly under the radar. That happens because people focus on attacking people who are loud, aggressive, and obnoxious, while ignoring people who are quiet and only just kind of contributing.

The best way to avoid that is, instead of only looking for scum tells, look for town tells, look for people who are acting like town. Make a list of them. Compare them to the list of the people playing the game. There will usually be a few people who aren't on your list of town people, and who you hadn't really even noticed were in the game and hadn't thought about until you made a list.

Those people are usually the scum.

[Yosarian2]

also lol at yos trying to explain my playstyle to always innocent to no avail as he continues to run headfirst into the wall of being obvscum

sorry your coaching didn't work out yos, love ya buddy

Lol.

I was actually trying to explain to him that you act like this as town, rofl. I was defending you, and trying to difuse what is pretty obviously a town v town fight.

[Yosarian2]

Updated list:

Town:
AlwaysInnocent
KMD

Leaning town:
roflcopter
Aneninen

Null-town-ish
kop
acryon
Lowell
Albert

Null-scum-ish:
shaddowez
texcat

Scummy-
BlueBloodedToffee

Lurking + Scummy
Lucky2u

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, why is KMD town? She hasn't done anything.

Eh. There are things I like from his post #100, things I don't think would be to his advantage if he was scum.

Obviously these reads are all like 75% gut right now.

[Yosarian2]

Surely there are players that are more town-leaning than KMD? It just seems off.

Objectivly speaking, probably. In practice, though, i highly doubt KMD is scum thus game. Of course that's based on pretty much one post and may change

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I'd still like my question answered.

If it's your question about my list, I'm pretty sure I've answered it about 10 times by now?

I made a list of people who had done something at that point in the game that made me think they were town. shaddowez did not make the list.

Do you disagree with my read? Was there some specific post of shaddowez that strikes you as especially townie?

[Yosarian2]

But shouldn't scum look like town if they are competent? I think D1 especially, town are just as likely to look null as scum.

Looking town is a lot harder then looking null. Looking null, not doing things, is easy.

So what is the point of even saying this if it means he could be either scum or town?

Because it's information that I think will make it easier for people to read rofl, and will stop them from scum-reading him for things that are null or townish for him.

[Yosarian2]

Not getting a good vibe from his posting in general though.

You say this, but you only really commented on his statements about you, which makes it feel OMGUSy.

If I had a logical case against BBT, clearly I would have made it. My read on him was mostly gut, up until the point where he massivly over-reacted to my list in a way that looks pretty scummy.

Before that, eh. His attacking people for confirming in the same way felt kind of dodgy. His vote and then later unvote for ABR on wasn't great; I get the vote was probably random, but then removing for reason was eeehh. His post 16 gives me a bad vibe:

That is some top level psychological analysis.

You got me. Lynch me for I have sinned.

I got a worse vibe from him after he started posting content, which is unussal. His catch up post 142 was very, very wordy without really saying anything interesting, which is a bad sign.

Alright, I'm here and catching up. This is going to be a good game, I can feel it.

Lowell, BBT would do all of that as scum too.

Can you tell me what the purpose of this post was Kmd? I feel like this post is made on the assumption that Lowell is town? If so, where has that read come from?

hi, this is dumb. random chance says there is likely to be one scum in a group of four out of the thirteen players in this game, but your reason is bad.

vote: toffee

How dare you say my reasoning for finding scum on page 1 is both 'dumb' and 'bad'. That's the best damn page 1 reasoning you're ever likely to see.

Now, take that back.

So Toffee is scum?

Point of this post, AI?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kmd
super secret maybe scum read???

This looks like a serious vote Tex, can you walk me through it? What was scummy about Kmd keeping a read to himself?

Yeah, actually ABR replaced into a game for me where I was scum and killing it, and he came in guns blazing and totally blew it.

VOTE: Albert B Rampage

This looks like another RVS vote. If it is, why are you ignoring the fact that Kmd has stated he has placed a serious vote on you?

VOTE: Acryon

Serious vote. Jumped on the BBT wagon when it was gaining steam, then when people stopped talking about him and started voting ABR he joins in to do the same.

I like this vote but for different reasons. As stated above.

ANd then he flipped out about my "list" in a really irrational way, spending 3 posts talking about it and demanding that I be lynched. The fact that he reacted so badly to it just makes me think that I have his entire scum team on my naughty list, and he's upset that his whole scum team is getting coal this year.

[Yosarian2]

Why the hell do people keep voting for me? This is really getting stupid. I'm not sure if people are voting me because I'm actually scumhunting, or if people are voting me because God forboid a lot of my early-day 1 reads are gut (what the hell else couldthey be based on?) but nobody on this wagon has given any kind of reason for voting me. I mean, the only person who even tried to make a case was BBT, but he's probably scum.

Lowell, why is it that you said one thing about me that was 100% false, I proved it was 100% false, you didnt' respond, then you said another thing about me that was 100% wrong, I proved it was 100% wrong, and you then ingored both points and voted for me with no explanation?

I mean, if nobody else is going to try to actually play mafia this game, then I'll stop putting so much effort in, that's fine.

[Yosarian2]

Roflcopter is being reckless (to the point of being annoying and foolish). Yosarian seems to play a very safe game however.

Uh. What? I'm playing in an incredibly risky fashion to the point of recklessness here to try and lynch scum.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p7500739]post 223[/url], Lowell"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p7500735]post 222[/url], AlwaysInnocent"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p7500713]post 220[/url], roflcopter"]lowell please just vote for alwaysinnocent with me. seriously, we can lynch yos tomorrow. anen is right that he's investigation bait. i'm also nostalgic and want more than one game day of yosarian2 even if he's going to play the take-my-ball-and-go-home card.[/quote]Stop being so foolish. It's going to lose us the game. Especially if you keep this up.[/quote]

Just so I'm clear, here. yos thinks you're town and it's suspicious, and rofl thinks you're scum you seem pretty sure he's town?[/quote]

Like i said, ai is obvtown here.

[Yosarian2]

[

Yos

- I can't say I'm a fan of lists since they provide no information, so since you gave one I'll ask about it. What makes Kop null-town but tex null-scum? They've had about the same amount of posts, and neither of them have really said anything groundbreakings.
Are you still voting Lucky because of their lurking, or because you actually think they're more scummy than your only other full scum read, BBT?
What made you change rofl from being "super town" in 151 to "leaning town" in 192?

I don't want to unvote lucky until he posts some real content. It's a mater of principle; i voted him for lurking, he came in and posted a few times but flatly refused to post content. That does not fly, towns should never let people get away with that.

Kop and tex are both basically null. I liked Kop's posts slightly more then tex, at least he seemed to be thinking about the game, but nothing major.


ROFL hasnt really changed. He's still probably town. Not quite as sure about him as some others, he can be tricksy, but he looks townish.

I don't know why people are so anti-list. Everyone should make a list, even if you don't share it. It forces you to read every single player in the game, and to try and form an opinion on them, even if it's not based on much.

[Yosarian2]

I'm finding it hard to believe Yos thinks not doing anything is optimal scum play,

Not quite what I said.


Optimal scum play is usually doing something, just.not a lot. Scum tend to do just enough to not be noticed, they aren't usually the loudest, most aggressive, ot most obnoxious person in the thread.

Of course, that's just a general rule of thumb, not all scum play like that. But there are other advantages as well; the more the town pressures people who are less active, the mote active everyone becomes, and that makes towns win a lot more

but I don't see the benefit of him lying about that either so... iunno... 215 is pretty bad though.

I really, really hate being voted for bad reasons when I'm town and am playing really well. I always seem to get mislynched as town for no fucking reason these days and it pisses me off.

I mean, obviously i knew that calling half the people in the game town was going to get me attacked, and defending contraversial people like AI, you, Albert, and rolf was likely to get me voted. But I'm clearly right; it really looks like all 4 of you are town. If I was scum I'd have sat back and let you 4 tear each other up.

AlwaysInnocent, why would Yos choose to buddy you specifically with a handful of older and more influential players in the game?[/quote]

[Yosarian2]

That last paragraph was part of KMDs quote, meant to delete that.

[Yosarian2]

[

Yos, even then I'm having trouble seeing how scum can take control of the game by not being the more aggressive players.

Scum don't have to "take control of the game". If the loudest and most agressive players are town and they all fight each other, the scum can just stay out of the way and let them fight.

[/quote]

Can you elaborate why on Page 10 with no flips yet and a wagon on you, you feel you are "playing well"?[/quote]

I'm pretty happy with my reads, even as early as page 4 I think I correctly picked out several town players. And I think my style has been very effective at getting people to move past the RVS and start playing.

I find it incredibly frustrating that there's a wagon on me for no real reason when i feel like my play has been so on point, and so effective, and so obviously pro-town.

And why you think rofl and myself are "controversial"?

I guess it's less true of you. But rofl was being attacked by AI, AI was being attacked by rofl, and Albert was being attacked by everyone including AI.

[Yosarian2]

I mean, the only person who even tried to make a case was BBT, but he's probably scum.

Yet you haven't built a case against BBT.[\quote]

I explained my scum read on bbt in some detail a few posts ago.


What do you think about BBT so far? Has he done anything that looks townish to you?

[Yosarian2]

Yup, Albert is town. Good to know.

[Yosarian2]

What do you think about BBT so far? Has he done anything that looks townish to you?

I've played with him a lot of times. He's amongst those players I think I can read with quite a high accuracy rate. This gameplay I can see now is his town gameplay.

Interesting. Can you be a little more specific? What has he done that looks like his town play?

Are there any specific games he's been town and played like this i should be looking at?

[Yosarian2]

Because this is townposting.

My scum pool is Lowell and Lucky.

quote="In post 250 , Albert B. Rampage"]The ghosts of christmas past told me[/quote]

Logical scum reads, combined with a flagrent refusal to explain themselves. Scumhunting + not giving a shit what anyone thinks = likely town.

I mean, to be fair, ABR is aware enough of his own meta to fake this as scum, but i don't think that is what is happening here.

[Yosarian2]

I skimmed the games you linked about BTT in your post, anen. Offhand I don't really see the difference between his scum play and town play you're talking about, but I'll look again in more detail when I have more time (this is just a quick phone post).

Lucky: the whole "i posted content so now unvote me" thing is a little weak; most of the content you posted was just discussing mafia theory even though apparently you don't want to discuss mafia theory. Can you give us a few more reads? Who do you think looks townish, who looks scummy?

[Yosarian2]

oh I'm only asking you to unvote me because you said you would.

Not quite what I said.

I said I would not unvote you until you posted content. Not that you posting content would guarentee an immediate unvote. Obviously that would depend on what that content was and how it affected my read on you.

Now that I am back, explain why I am scum or unvote me.

(shrug) You have not yet convinced me you are town, and Anen's impassioned defense of BBT has made me doubt my read there at least until i have time to do some serious meta homework, so I don't see any reason to move my vote at the moment. Right now, that's all the case I need.

You want me to move my vote, convince me someone else is a better suspect.

I already told you who my scum reads are, read again if you didn't catch it. So who looks most town? For me that question is really, who appears the least scum? That would be BBT right now.

Interesting. Why BBT?

[Yosarian2]

I don't want you to move your vote, I don't really care about that. My concern is that you parked your vote on a player who was a then lurker so you wouldn't have to take a stance on anyone else.

I originally voted you for lurking. Then when you posted without posting content, even though you were clearly here and reading the game, the vote got a little stronger ("+ 10 scumpoints" was how I put it.) And then you did it a few more times, which I liked even less.

And as ABR has pointed out, I've taken a lot of stances on people, so the next line if fairly silly.

[Yosarian2]

I'm pretty sure I said why I didn't like your reads-list when I posted. You should go read my post again.

Ok, let me go back and see.

Ah, the old completely unnecessary, randomly inserted reads-list. A favourite for scum to look like they have 'reads' and are 'doing things'.

So no, you did not raise any specific problems with my list when I posted it. You claimed it was "unnecessary" which it clearly was not since i didn't know who to vote for until i went back and read everyone's comments in ISO and made a list of who i liked. I suppose i didn't have to share the list, but i think it's helpful to be transparent about your reads. And you claimed i was "trying to look like I was doing things" which is silly, i was certanly doing more "things" then many other people in the game at the time.

So no, you really didn't give any real reasons, other then an n apparent dislike of lists.

You're right though, lots of people make reads-lists. Sometimes though, a reads-list just isn't required, or it doesn't say a lot or there is something else wrong with it. I have caught scum by them posting awful reads-lists before. You wouldn't be the first.

Except that was an awesome list, especally for page 4. And I notice you still can't say anything specific against it.

It's not actually the 'making of the list' that's scummy. I mean, it still kind of is because nobody needs a reads-list on page 5 or whatever it was, but it's the fact that you felt the need to post it. You didn't need to post it, the only purpose of posting it is to look 'pro-town', especially as you later admit your reads are based mainly on gut.

I posted it because it's good to share your reads with the rest if the town. Reasons are less important then what the reads are.

And if you think I was trying to look pro-town by posting a bunch of town reads with no reasons, you're crazy. I expect random newbs who don't really understand the game to vote me when i do stuff like that. But your reaction was really weird.

I've cut the quotes out from ABR - go and look at what happened right before ABR started posting like that. I picked the fight with ABR, not the other way around. [\quote]

That's reasonable. Frankly, there's a reason i labled the top half of the list "people i don't want to lynch right now" and not "town reads". I would not say i had a strong read on ABR that early.


Now I do, though, and I think my early gut-read on him was right.

I think I just explained that?

He's trying to scumhunt, he doesn't care how his scumhunting makes him look, he's aggressive, he's not being cautious. Those are all town traits.

The main difference between town and scum is that town's #1 priority is to find scum, while scum's #1 priority is not being lynched. When a person starts taking risks, being aggressive, and sticking their necks out to try to find scum, apparently without caring how it makes them look, that's a town tell.

Fantastic. Now, tell me why these tells apply to AI and not me? Because I'm not seeing consistency in your reads.

Consistency is a scum tell.

Anyway, I don't suspect you for lack of scumhunting, i suspect you because you have done some weird things. It's not that you weren't scumhunting, it's that I don't really buy your scumhunting. A lot of the stuff you did early in the game feels weird, and your reaction to my lst really feels off.

And I certanly haven't been getting the vibe that "you don't care what people think" that I got from ABR.

Secondly, I am clearly doubting your AI town read, I think it is clear to see from my posting that I do not think AI is town so I'm not sure why you're feigning confusion.

Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. You think AI is scum? Can you explain why?

[Yosarian2]

Bah, i keep screwing up the quote tags. Last post should have looked like this

I'm pretty sure I said why I didn't like your reads-list when I posted. You should go read my post again.

Ok, let me go back and see.

Ah, the old completely unnecessary, randomly inserted reads-list. A favourite for scum to look like they have 'reads' and are 'doing things'.

So no, you did not raise any specific problems with my list when I posted it. You claimed it was "unnecessary" which it clearly was not since i didn't know who to vote for until i went back and read everyone's comments in ISO and made a list of who i liked. I suppose i didn't have to share the list, but i think it's helpful to be transparent about your reads. And you claimed i was "trying to look like I was doing things" which is silly, i was certanly doing more "things" then many other people in the game at the time.

So no, you really didn't give any real reasons, other then an n apparent dislike of lists.

You're right though, lots of people make reads-lists. Sometimes though, a reads-list just isn't required, or it doesn't say a lot or there is something else wrong with it. I have caught scum by them posting awful reads-lists before. You wouldn't be the first.

Except that was an awesome list, especally for page 4. And I notice you still can't say anything specific against it.

It's not actually the 'making of the list' that's scummy. I mean, it still kind of is because nobody needs a reads-list on page 5 or whatever it was, but it's the fact that you felt the need to post it. You didn't need to post it, the only purpose of posting it is to look 'pro-town', especially as you later admit your reads are based mainly on gut.

I posted it because it's good to share your reads with the rest if the town. Reasons are less important then what the reads are.

And if you think I was trying to look pro-town by posting a bunch of town reads with no reasons, you're crazy. I expect random newbs who don't really understand the game to vote me when i do stuff like that. But your reaction was really weird.

I've cut the quotes out from ABR - go and look at what happened right before ABR started posting like that. I picked the fight with ABR, not the other way around.

That's reasonable. Frankly, there's a reason i labled the top half of the list "people i don't want to lynch right now" and not "town reads". I would not say i had a strong read on ABR that early.


Now I do, though, and I think my early gut-read on him was right.

I think I just explained that?

He's trying to scumhunt, he doesn't care how his scumhunting makes him look, he's aggressive, he's not being cautious. Those are all town traits.

The main difference between town and scum is that town's #1 priority is to find scum, while scum's #1 priority is not being lynched. When a person starts taking risks, being aggressive, and sticking their necks out to try to find scum, apparently without caring how it makes them look, that's a town tell.

Fantastic. Now, tell me why these tells apply to AI and not me? Because I'm not seeing consistency in your reads.

Consistency is a scum tell.

Anyway, I don't suspect you for lack of scumhunting, i suspect you because you have done some weird things. It's not that you weren't scumhunting, it's that I don't really buy your scumhunting. A lot of the stuff you did early in the game feels weird, and your reaction to my lst really feels off.

And I certanly haven't been getting the vibe that "you don't care what people think" that I got from ABR.

Secondly, I am clearly doubting your AI town read, I think it is clear to see from my posting that I do not think AI is town so I'm not sure why you're feigning confusion.

Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. You think AI is scum? Can you explain why?

[Yosarian2]

[

Uh. What? I'm playing in an incredibly risky fashion to the point of recklessness here to try and lynch scum.

What? How is your play in any way reckless and how are you trying to lynch scum? You're voting a lurker, a lurker who you have no case on I should add.

Did you miss the part where I townread half the people in the game on page 4? I mean, obviously not since that's the excuse you gave for voting me.

OK, so this makes no sense at all. You

expected

to be attacked for your reads-list (cough *you're lying* cough), I attacked you, and you called me scum for it? Can you explain how that works when you was expecting to be attacked?

Of course i expected it. Some people always react badly to stuff they're not used to, especally newbies.

But that doesn't at all explain your reaction, which was much stronger then that and really made no sense at all, especally since you are not a newbie.

If you want to try to explain yoursrlf better, feel free, but your extreme reaction just feels fake and scummy.

Scum don't have to "take control of the game". If the loudest and most agressive players are town and they all fight each other, the scum can just stay out of the way and let them fight.

This is another comment in a growing list of comments that seem to directly contradict your read on me. Let's talk about that.

Not all scum play that way, of course. Did you really think that I was saying no scum are ever active, or that all scum have the exact same playstyle?

Scum are at least somewhat more likely then town to lurk and/or try to stay out of the spotlight. That is simply true. Of course some town lurk, and of course some scum are active and aggressive.

You attempt to find "contradictions" where there clearly aren't any is not really making you look better.

[Yosarian2]

i'm also waiting for yos to stop burying himself in a stupid argument about reads lists and tell me in words why ai is a townread

He's not as hard a town read as he was a few pages ago. Still leaning town on him, though.

For one thing, if he was scum, I don't really think he would turn on me like that and vote me when i was the one defending him. That does not seem like something a scum worried about self preservation would do.

[Yosarian2]

For one thing, if he was scum, I don't really think he would turn on me like that and vote me when i was the one defending him. That does not seem like something a scum worried about self preservation would do.

so much wifom

is there a second thing? or a third thing?

Not really WIFOM. Person A calls person B town, person B votes person A. Person B is clearly does not care about trying to stay on person As good list. Which makes me thin AI cares more about scumhunting then survival.

He's also moving his vote around a lot in a way that feels townish, like he's really scumhunting.

There are a few other iffy things he's done since then though. I agree the KMD thing felt oppertunistic, and he's not reacting well to pressure. So he is down from a strong town read to a weaker town read.

I did explain my earlier game town read on him back in post 151.

[Yosarian2]

What I was trying to get at is that I think Yos' reasons for town reading ABR are BS. I think it's an early read to try and pocket ABR (and I think it's working). I don't think scum!Yos reads scum!ABR like that, I think he would try and flesh out the read a little more. I think this is scum!Yos trying to pocket town!ABR and nullify a potential threat to him.

Oh please. Have you ever played with Albert? He's not the type to trust you just because you call him town.

I get that most people can't read ABR. But he looks like town ABR this game.

Obviously my page 4 read was based on very little, my goal was just to skim everyone in the game and try to make a snap judgement on every single person. It's a good scumhunting technique.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, the old completely unnecessary, randomly inserted reads-list. A favourite for scum to look like they have 'reads' and are 'doing things'.

So no, you did not raise any specific problems with my list when I posted it. You claimed it was "unnecessary" which it clearly was not since i didn't know who to vote for until i went back and read everyone's comments in ISO and made a list of who i liked. I suppose i didn't have to share the list, but i think it's helpful to be transparent about your reads. And you claimed i was "trying to look like I was doing things" which is silly, i was certanly doing more "things" then many other people in the game at the time.

I see, so what you're saying is I said your reads-list was unnecessary, random, an attempt to look like you had reads (look pro-town) and an attempt to look busy (pro-town) but none of those constitute as problems to you? OK then

None of those statements have anything to do with my list in specific or my play in general.

So either you have a problem with early game lists in general or you're full of bullshit. And you keep denying you have a problem with lists in general.

That's the whole point, there was no need for you to share that reads-list at that point in the game.

That's a totally nonesensical statement. There is never a time in a mafia game you should not be sharing your reads. I can't even imagine how you could claim otherwise.

Page 4 reads-lists aren't worth shit.

If you think that is true, then why are you so obsessed with mine? You're not making sense here at all.

No, it isn't. It's quite easy to infer people's reads from the way they talk about/to people. Reads-lists simply are not needed.

Sure, there are other ways to share your reads. How you do it is a styalistic choice. But a few sentances ago you were trying to say that somehow sharing reads at all on page 4 is scummy.

Consistency is a scum tell.

No, it really isn't. Reading different people differently for the same actions is scummy and shows a flaw in your thought process.

[/quote]

In a real mafia game, context matters. Timing matters. Personalities matter. Meta matters. Experence matters. Even just the mood the person seems to be in matters. Two posts can look similar but mean very different things. Plus, a townie will sometimes re-read the same part of the same game twice and read it differently.

The only time someone is really consistant is if they're a scum and care more about looking consistent then real scumhunting. Town people don't care if they look consistant.

Of course, in this case, you are lying anyway and inventing inconsistencies that you have to know are not really there.

Ok. Now we're getting somewhere. You think AI is scum? Can you explain why?

I could do, but I'm much more interested in getting you lynched right now.

Yeah, that's what i thought. Just more fake scumhunting coming from BBT, nothing he can really back up.

And here, he totally gives up any attempt to even pretend to scumhunt and just tries to bully people into joining my wagon. Including, oddly, the person he was pretending t scum read a minute ago but couldn't explain why.

ok at this point i could lynch either ai or yos today, nostalgia be damned. they're both scum.

You should absolutely join the Yos wagon.

How about Yosarian + KMD?

You seem to think Yos has a decent chance of being scum and if I remember correctly you spoke earlier about bigger wagon being more effective than one vote wagons? How about you join the Yos wagon

But that doesn't at all explain your reaction, which was much stronger then that and really made no sense at all, especally since you are not a newbie.

Why doesn't it explain the action? You expected to be attacked for your reads-list, and I attacked you. That seems quite a natural flow of events.

Because in your case, it was clearly fake scumhunting. You don't really believe lists are scummy, and you can't explain why mine was without vague generalities that don't make sense in this context.

Not all scum play that way, of course. Did you really think that I was saying no scum are ever active, or that all scum have the exact same playstyle?

Scum are at least somewhat more likely then town to lurk and/or try to stay out of the spotlight. That is simply true. Of course some town lurk, and of course some scum are active and aggressive.

You attempt to find "contradictions" where there clearly aren't any is not really making you look better.

Of course you have to state that, otherwise you would have no reasons for thinking I am scum (even though you're still yet to put your vote where your mouth is).

There are clearly contradictions in your posts and how they correlate to your reads. I just showed you one.

And now, you , he ignore everything i just said and just rely on empty rhetoric instead.

[Yosarian2]

BBT is pretty clealy scum here. He's not really scumhunting. He's not really saying anything relevent, just posts wall after wall of text to try to srive a mislynch he doesn't really believe in.

[vote:bbt[/vote]
Lucky is stll probably scum as well but he'll have to wait.

[Yosarian2]

vote:BlueBloodedToffee

[Yosarian2]

ai, come back to your bus vote on yos and i'll give you a townie brownie!

If I get lots of townie points, then I will bus everyone you want.

VOTE: Yosarian

Ok, now that was scummy.

[Yosarian2]

shhhhh yos just go quietly to the gallows like a good scum

You have voted me and been convinced i an scum in literally every game we have ever played.

[Yosarian2]

There is no "rofl-yos bickerparty". Rofl keeps calling me scum for no real reason. I still think he's town, and have mostly ignored him other then to answer a few questions.

Are you even reading the game, lowell?

[Yosarian2]

Let's get a bandwagon on Lucky going.

I'm not as sure about him anymore.

Right now, leaning towards BBT or Lowell.

[Yosarian2]

So you're just not going to respond to any of my points at all, BBT? Nothing?

Can we just lynch BBT already? Sorry, Anen, but scum can do that "machine gun of questions" thing just as easily. The difference is, scum don't really care about the answers, because they're not really scumhunting. And BBT obviously doesn't care about anything I say, he's just trying to push a mislynch based on sheer volume of words, no actual logic.

[Yosarian2]

No, I'm bored of going around in circles with you and having to deal with your flat out false statements/accusations.

Absolutly nothing I have said is "false". And I think you know that.

confirm vote:BBT

Die scum die.

[Yosarian2]

I mean, even when you were responding to me, you were constantly evasive, avoiding discussing the actual subjects you supposedly cared about, and you kept avoidning talking about the actual game and falling back on vague generalizations and empty rhetoric. If you honestly thought I was scum, then fine, but it's becoming more and more clear that you don't actually believe anything you're saying.

[Yosarian2]

Shadow you should join the Yos wagon.

Kop, you should bus your buddy.

And here we go again. BBT is just trying to bully people into joining a mislynch, he's not even pretending to scumhunt anymore.

It's frustating people keep calling him town just because he's posting a lot. Nothing BBT is doing seems to have a town motive at all.

[Yosarian2]

BBT's entire argument against me was that I posted a list on page 4. He claims he doesn't think lists are scummy, but claims that somehow my list was me "pretending to provide content" or something, as if I haven't been giving more content and reads then anyone else in the game.

And that's it. He's got nothing else. He just keeps repeating that, while refuisng to explain it, and is now trying to get me lynched by just spamming the hell out of the thread with no content poists.

He just needs to die. And then when he flips scum and his buddies nightkill me tonight, just remember that at least one of his scum buddies is on my page 4 list, probably both of them.

[Yosarian2]

Lol.

Like I said, he's got nothing.

[Yosarian2]

Is it hard to leave the thread when you're scum and under pressure?

Always have that feeling that you need to defend yourself in case you get lynched while you're away?

Fortunately, I can help you. Let me relieve that pressure by tying this rope gently around your neck...

I don't care that I have 5 votes on me and you only have 1. You are going to die today. Because logic always triumphs over bullshit.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, do you really think that BBT would be so concerned that you listed his whole team as scum on Page 4 that he'd push your lynch over it? You said yourself that town's reads change all the time. Why wouldn't he just ride it out until you change your mind on some things?

Logically that might be better, but I've seen scum flip out over that kind of thing before. Some scum do not react well to that kind of thing. It especally pisses then off if they get called out for what they think is a bad reason.


Look at his word choices. He keeps saying stuff like "page 4 reads are shit" and going way out of his way to try to discredit that list. He's not just trying to lynch me, he's trying to lynch me and to discredit that list.

He probably really believes hes going to get me lynched today. He's wrong, I'm not that easy to mislynch, but he doesn't know me that well. So if he really thought i was going to flip scum, then he wouldn't need to discredit my reads like that. But I think he knows I'm going to flip town, so he wants to discredit my reads as well.

In any case, he just does not seem to be someone who's honestly trying to find scum. He doesn't seen to care what I say or what I do and he doesn't care if the things he says are correct or not. He's not looking for scum, he's just pushing a wagon.

Yos, can you point me to why you thought ABR was being aggressive towards BBT?

If you're talking about my page 4 read, on ABR obviously it wasn't based on much, but i can explain it again if you want. Out of time right now though so I'll come back and do that in a seperate post later.

[Yosarian2]

bus?
BUS?

This is the second joke that you missed. Please don't insult my intelligence.

The problem is, I don't know if you would make that joke if you actually thought i was scum. You clearly care a lot about how you look, so if you actually thought I was going to flip scum, you would be worried that people think you and I are connected.

Insead, you're joking about it, which really only makes sense if you already know I'm going to flip town. Even when you're trying to lynch me. Putting the 5th vote on a bad wagon on me for no reason in fact.


Yeah. Between this and the KMD post, town read on AI is officially dead.

[Yosarian2]

KMD: looking back, i think this was the post that gave me a good vibe on ABR in the first few pages.

So you want me to town it up for yall or am I playing my normal scummy game?

Maybe agressive wasn't quite the right word. Provocative? Deliberately challanging? Whatever. Just the kind of post I'd expect town ABR to make to try to get a reaction. Not the kind of joke you'd expect scum to make.

Obv this wasn't a hard read yet. That came later.

[Yosarian2]

My joke was actually directed at roflcopter's ridiculous claim that we are scum buddies and that I must be bussing you if I am voting for you.

I just don't know if you would really be that blase about that if you really believed i was going to flip scum. Makes me wonder if you are scum.


If you are scum, then your play makes more sense. In that case, you would want to play up the idea that we are linked, and you would want to lynch me. That way when I flip town the case against you kind of collapses.

[Yosarian2]

KMD: This was what I said.

ABR is basically playing in his normal meta. Loud, obnoxious, picking fights. It's basically how I expect town-ABR to act. It's not really an alignment tell, he could do that as either alignment, but I haven't seen any red flags from him yet.

I don't think I ever actually called ABR "aggressive".

[Yosarian2]

The most notable thing Aneninen's done so far is go way out of his way to defend BTT. He even took the time to find links to another game and stuff.

If BTT is town, I can't really see scum-Anen acting like that.

If BTT is scum, maybe I'll take another look at Anen. But I think that the correct play is to lynch BTT first and then recalibrate.

Honestly, even assuming BTT does flip scum, I'm still not really seeing hypo-Anen-scum go as far as he did in defending him when he wasn't in that much real danger, but I hate to ever call "defending a scum" as a town tell.

[Yosarian2]

I guess? I donno, if me and BTT are both town wouldn't hypo-Anen-scum just let us fight?

[Yosarian2]

yosarian what % chance to do you think there is of you convincing the town to lynch bbt today?

Meh. It's not going to be easy, certanly, especially not since some of my town reads seem to be townreading him.

I'll be willing to do a compromise lynch if necessary, but no reason for me to give up this early, we've got plenty of time. Anyway, even if I can't get him lynched today, I really want to at least get some votes and some pressure on him and maybe force him to start making sense and posting something real so we can get a better read on him.

[Yosarian2]

i just find it curious that you're doggedly sticking to a vote you seem to know isn't going anywhere and still haven't voted for ai despite now apparently completing the evolutionary process of your read on him from town to scum

"Doggedly sticking to a vote"? You make it sound like I've been voting for him forever. I only voted BTT yesterday, and a number of people haven't even posted since I made my case against him.

Anyway, not sure what to think of AI at the moment, honestly. Very mixed feelings there.

If the BBT wagon really isn't going anywhere (and, again, it's way too early to say that) my second choice at the moment would be Lowell.

[Yosarian2]

you at least understand why consistently placing other priorities ahead of ai makes you look like ai's scumbuddy to those of us scumreading ai, right?

Eh. I was defending him earlier, and while he's moved down several notches he's still not in my top scum reads, so sure, if he flips scum I'm sure you'll use that as an argument against me.

It really did not make sense for you to try to lynch me today based on your suspicion of AI instead of just trying to lynch AI, though, but whatever.

[Yosarian2]

If the BBT wagon really isn't going anywhere (and, again, it's way too early to say that) my second choice at the moment would be Lowell.

Hmm-hmm-e-hmm...
And there have already been two players voting for him since this post...
(By the way, I don't see anything particularly scummy about Lowell.)

Yeah, and I like that wagon. For now though I am keeping my vote on BBT. I notice he's gone strangely quiet since his wagon on me collapsed, and I really want to see what he does next.

[Yosarian2]

I simply can't imagine a scum asking that. (Although I haven't got the slightest idea what "proxy a vote" means.)

In some mafia rulesets, you can proxy your vote, which means you give another person the right to make your vote for you. Used to be a commonly allowed practice, although only used rarely, especially when someone was on v/la and a deadline was approaching.

No special reason a scum wouldn't do that, if it's allowed. Can be a way to buddy someone, for example.

[Yosarian2]

Yos

- Basically the same question. There does seem to be some dancing around by BBT, but is it enough to have your vote parked there?

Why is everyone trying so hard to get me to unvote BBT? First rofl, then AI, now you.


I think BBT is probably scum. I think, based on his play so far this game, that we should lynch him today. So I am voting him


If someone wants to give me a real readon they're townreading BBT I'll listen, but right now i don't see him as town.

[Yosarian2]

I mean, seriously, shaddows, this is the time line here.

I vote BBT in 354, after explaining in quite a bit of detail why I think he's the scummiest player in the game.

He spent the next few pages just spamming the thread with shitposts, flatly refusing to actually answer any of my points or respond to anything I said, while trying to bully people into joining my wagon using absolutly no logic or arguments. He wasn't even pretending to scumhunt anymore, just purely trying to push a mislynch. Every single post he made on those pages was 100% anti-town, there wasn't even a glimmer of any pro-town activity or thought there at any point.

Then, he lurked for a few days, with nothing more then a naked prod dodge.

And you ask why I'm still voting for him? What, exactally, in that period, do you think was going to change my mind about him?

"Why are you still voting for him Yos" isn't even a question. The question is, why aren't you voting for him, shaddowez? Is there ANYTHING he's done that looks town to you?

[Yosarian2]

ABR's reaction to Yos vs BBT is actually town as fuck.

Yeah, abr is pretty obvtown at this point.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, now I understand what you were trying to get me to do. I wondered why you kept asking me to attack your list, it didn't seem right. But I see now that you were trying to get me to do it so you could use this attack on me and say I was trying to discredit your reads.

...


The list was literally the only real thing you attacked me for. That was your entire case. That is all you had. And now you're claiming I was "trying to get you to attack your list?"

Am I crazy here, or is BBT just spouting pure bullshit? Why do people keep calling this guy town?

[Yosarian2]

KMD: looking back, i think this was the post that gave me a good vibe on ABR in the first few pages.

So you want me to town it up for yall or am I playing my normal scummy game?

Maybe agressive wasn't quite the right word. Provocative? Deliberately challanging? Whatever. Just the kind of post I'd expect town ABR to make to try to get a reaction. Not the kind of joke you'd expect scum to make.

So the reason for your ABR town read has changed now? Because previously it was based on him picking fights, and now that I have shown that to be false, you have produced a brand new reason? Just gotta keep ABR on your good side, right?

And this is just scummy as fuck.

I keep trying to see why people are townreading BBT, but he just keeps making posts like this.

[Yosarian2]

There is a very clear difference in what I was saying, of course, I don't expect you to understand it. (Or at least admit to understanding it)

Your attack on my list has been going on for pretty much the entire game. Your claim that somehow i was trying to manipulate you into attacking my list but you refused to do so or whatever is complete and total fiction.

[Yosarian2]

PEdit - Is it scummy as fuck because you said so or is there any reason for it?

You comment on albert was scummy as fuck because I've explained my page 4 read there about 10 times and you're stil pretending you don't understand it, and acting like I'm buddyng albert when the only reason i keep explaining it us because people keep asking me to. You have to knw that's bs.


Also you're STILL talking about my page 4 list even while denying that you are.

[Yosarian2]

No, it didn't. I spent about 4 posts explaining this to KMD.

My read on him now is based on different reasons, but of course you only care about my page 4 read on ABR since you're still trying to discredit that list.

[Yosarian2]

Tell you what, BBT. I'll make this easy for you. Make a tl;dr summery of your case against me, a few sentances long, without bringing up my page 4 list or things about my page 4 list (like, for example, ABR's position on it).

[Yosarian2]

That's what i thought. You've got nothing.

Can we lynch bbt now?

[Yosarian2]

Basically, it looks like you're faking a super-obsessed-tunnel on me because you think that tunneling will make you look pro-town, even though you don't really seem to have any real reasons for voting me. If you were town you'd either be making a real argument against me or else you'd have changed targets by now.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I'm a little uncomfortable about Lowell's turn here, especially since not too long ago Lowell had joined BBT's wagon on me; apparently Lowell liked BBT's case against me just fine then.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, abr is pretty obvtown at this point.

ABR pocketed? Check.
ABR joined the wagon I'm pushing? Check.
Keep on ABR's goodside by repeatedly stating how town he is. Check.

Yeah, this is terrible. Especially since it's factually wrong; when I called ABR obvtown, he was not on the wagon I was pushing, and in fact had just basically called me an idiot who was hurting the game by continuing to push your wagon. You're quoting post 509 here, and ABR didn't vote for you until 520, after you had finally stopped lurking and made some fresh posts.

I mean, do you disagree with my town read on ABR? Because it would be incredibly scummy for you to attack me for town reading ABR if you are also town reading ABR here. If you don't agree with me about ABR, then explain why you don't agree and I'd be glad to discuss it.

If I don't manage to lynch Yos today and either I, or ABR, get killed N1. Please fucking lynch this.

And you're still doing this no-content "lynch Yos just because" thing. It just looks like a fake tunnel.

Just wanna go over this one more time because I'm either not explaining myself well or people just are not reading closely enough (I know this happens a lot when there is a 1v1 going on.)

Correct, I attacked your reads-list. I attacked your reads-list for the timing of it and the purpose I believed was the reason for you posting it. You tried to change the reasoning behind my attack, you tried to say I was trying to discredit you and your reads. That's not what I was doing.

I speculated about the motives behind your attack on my reads-list, which is a little different then "changing the reasoning". If you are scum, then you probably have other motives for the things you do beyond the surface ones, and I was speculating about that.

In any case, that speculation wasn't terribly important at this point in the game; it'll be useful after you get lynched, assuming you flip scum, to help us find your buddies, but it wasn't the basis of my suspicion on you.

But your attack didn't make a lot of sense anyway. There's nothing wrong with having a bunch of weak town reads on page 4, and there's nothing wrong with sharing your reads with the rest of the town, and there's nothing wrong with doing it as a list instead of in some other way. Frankly, I don't even see how any of those things could be considered anti-town. I keep pointing this out, and you keep basically avoiding discussing it in any meaningful way, even though it is supposedly the whole basis for your read on me.

You continued to try, by asking leading questions, to get me to attack your reads or the list itself. When I didn't do either, you just started stating that's what I was attacking anyway.

Your posts were very calculated. You tried to steer me in a direction and manipulate my posts in a way in which you could attack me for it. That's not how town work, that's scum.

I'm trying to get you to either explain yourself "page 4" argument in a way that makes sense, or else to get you to interact with the rest of the game that's happened since then in some meaningful way, because then I might be able to get a better read on your alignment. I keep giving you chances to show us your thoughts and to make sense, and you just keep flatly refusing to do so.

If you really are just going to keep refusing to interact with the game, then we're just going to have to assume you're scum. If you want to start playing, and either explain yourself in a way that makes more sense or maybe try to create a read on something that happened after page 4, then maybe you can convince people that you're actually not scum.

[Yosarian2]

I didn't say he was, that was mostly tongue in cheek. The main point is, and I'm sure you understood this, you have pocketed ABR. He is no threat to you today and I think that would be an aim for you if you were scum.
I couldn't understand your initial town read on him, when you explained it, I showed you that you were incorrect for town reading him for them reasons. Did you reevaluate? No. You kept him as town and started producing different reasons for your read. It all felt off, it's not what I would expect town to do.

Every time you start doing this, it feels like you're trying to be manipulative scum and trying to put two town people at odds with each other. If my town read of ABR in post 509 makes sense to you, then you trying to invent a scum motive for it really just looks like you're trying to be manipulative, especally when you use emotionally manipulative language like "in your pocket".

Now, if you want me to explain yet again why i had a weak town read on abr on my page 4 list, I can do that, but it just seems bizzare when you are simultaniously claiming that you "are not attacking my reads on my page 4 list". I mean, it was an early game weak town read, based on a good vibe I got from one of his posts. When I have to explain it it's obviously going to sound vague and fuzzy, because that's how early game gut reads work.

I also feel like you're trying to manipulate me into explaining my early game town read on ABR over and over again, just so you can claim I'm buddying him.

You didn't need to speculate, I outright told you what my reasons were.

Trying to figure ot the difference between what someone *says* his motives are, and what his actions indicate about his motives, is pretty much the definition of scumhunting.

If I'm suspecting you of being scum, I'm not going to just take you at your word, obviously. It's kind of weird that you are acting like you don't get this.

Especially since even while you're claiming you're "not attacking me for the reads on my list, just the timing of my list", you are literally doing the exact opposite in terms of ABR at the exact same time.

Correct, there is nothing wrong with having a bunch of weak town reads on page 4. There is EVERYTHING wrong with sharing them, there is no need to. Your reads will change within 2 pages at that point of the game and then your old reads become redundant very quickly.

They are likely to change, and I said do at the time. But that doesn't at all mean that there is anything wrong with sharing them. If it helps me figure out who I should he suspecting, and it helps other townies start to get a better read on the game, then it's useful.

The only reasoning to share reads at that stage is to look 'pro-town'.

The exact opposite is true. There are many reasons to do it, and the only reason to NOT do it is that it's unconventional and it might get you attacked, even though it's not actually anti-town in any way. But that's ok too; how people choose to attack me makes it easier to read them.

[Yosarian2]

I'm going to lose my fucking shit with you in a minute.

Sure, when you have nothing else to do, getting irrationally angry is a solid scum strategy, it can trick people into town reading you, and it's easy to fake.

I did not say your read made sense to me.[/size] Read;

I'm pretty sure you will have read a previous post of mine in which I state my read on ABR. I can attack someone's reasoning for town reading someone if I don't think they are legit; even if I'm town reading that same person. What you just said is a load of nonsense.

You keep twisting everything I say. How the fuck is nobody seeing what you're doing?

Forget the page 4 list for a minute. Do you think my town read of ABR as of post 509 make sense, or not? It seems like you keep trying to have it both ways.

I mean, I didn't give any reasoning at all in post 509 (frankly, I thought ABR was being obv-town enough that I didn't have to explain it) so you were not "attacking my reasoning". Either you agree with me that at that point in time ABR looked town, or you don't. "I think ABR looks town in post 509 but Yos is scummy for thinking that" makes no sense at all.

Now, if you want me to explain yet again why i had a weak town read on abr on my page 4 list, I can do that, but it just seems bizzare when you are simultaniously claiming that you "are not attacking my reads on my page 4 list". I mean, it was an early game weak town read, based on a good vibe I got from one of his posts. When I have to explain it it's obviously going to sound vague and fuzzy, because that's how early game gut reads work.

I also feel like you're trying to manipulate me into explaining my early game town read on ABR over and over again, just so you can claim I'm buddying him.

What a load of shit, if your reasoning for your read didn't keep changing I would have to keep questioning it. I very clearly stated I questioned how you arrived at some of your reads; this is not discrediting. Was I discrediting your reads list? No. Am I discrediting your read on ABR? Yeah I am, because I don't believe it is legit but this was not my original problem and this is exactly the route you have been trying to take me down and I feel dumb for letting you take me down it.

My reasoning never changed, although I tried to explain it in several different ways. I'm pretty sure I just went through all this in painfully great detail while discussing it with KMD, so I don't really feel like going through it again, but if there is something you honestly don't understand I am willing to.

But this whole line of reasoning is just so painful. I included ABR in my list of weak town tells, because I had a town-ish gut read on one of his posts. I really don't think my page 4 gut read on ABR at this point is terribly germane to anything now, honestly, and I don't get why so many people have been making me explain this over and over and over again.

It's not like I was singling out ABR either; I read the whole game, and made a list of people I had a weak town read on, which was about half the people in the game at the time. So what? Why do you care so much that ABR happened to be on the list? If ABR flipped scum, maybe you could legitimately use my early town-gut read on him to attack me, but he's done a lot of town-ish things since then that make me think my early town gut read was very likely correct.

Especially since even while you're claiming you're "not attacking me for the reads on my list, just the timing of my list", you are literally doing the exact opposite in terms of ABR at the exact same time.

Yeah, I fell for your trap. Well fucking done, you've frustrated me and I've allowed you to steer the conversation where you have been wanting it to go since we started. This is explained above and I've had enough now.

What.

Seriously.

What.

Ok, I give up. You're just scum. I'm done giving you second and third and fourth chances.

[Yosarian2]

You guys are officially in an isolated vacuum.

Actually, if you've read the last few pages, it sounds like most people in the game now agree with me that BBT is delibratly faking a tunnel on me, because his reasons really don't make any sense and aren't at all consistent with either each other or with his play in general.

[Yosarian2]

I distrust and dislike the way shaddowez is defending BBT here. It feels like he's trying to convince everyone to unvote him without being willing to really make a case for BBT being town.

If BBT flips scum, I'm going to be taking a closer look at shadowez tommorow.

[Yosarian2]

I also agree with AI that BBT's read on Anen seems strange. AI is still the biggest wagon; if AI flips town, Anen keeping his vote on AI instead of moving it isnt a town tell. "If anen was scum he'd vote me" doesn't really make sense in this situation.

[Yosarian2]

Scum team: BTT+shaddowez+Lucky? Or is that too easy?

[Yosarian2]

If BTT is scum, Anen is likely town. Because if BTT is scum, then that thing where BTT townread Anen out of nowhere for a terrible reason while there was no pressure on Anen a few pages ago was probably an attempt to buddy. I doubt a scum would point a giant arrow at their partner like that right after they get into serious trouble.

[Yosarian2]

Also, I'd be pretty surprised if AI actually flipped scum at this point. It's not impossible, but I'm not expecting it.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, the "AI towntell" thing doesn't make any real sense to me, but the way he reacted to it looks townish.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, the "AI towntell" thing doesn't make any real sense to me, but the way he reacted to it looks townish.

Lets pretend none of that shit happened. Yos who you wanna lynch besides bbt?

Shaddowz also looks kind of dodgy, although the problem is that if BBT flips town he comes off looking better.

Honestly, the thing is that at this point most of my reads are kind of dependent on BBT's alignment. Texcat seems a little off but looks better if BBT flips scum. Lucky has gone quiet again, but he looks better if BBT flips town though. Kop is also kind of weird; he now seems to be townreading AI and BBT and me but I don't know who he suspects. Not sure what to think of him.

If we really fail to lynch BBT for some reason I'd accept a lynch on someone in the pool of (shaddowz, lucky, lowell, texcat, kop). Again, weaker town reads then everyone else. Anen is also acting a little weird but i don't know if i see him acting like this as scum.

[Yosarian2]

And BBT has gone back to low-profile mode, maybe hoping this wagon on him blows over.

BBT:Looks lime you're not going to get me lynched today. What's your second choice? Who do you think we should lynch right now?

[Yosarian2]

Looks like everyone has Lowell on their compromise lynch list.

Yeah, he's on my meh list. Gutwise, he doesn't really feel like scum in recent pages, but logically speaking, his voting history looks terrible. So, overall meh.

[Yosarian2]

Eh. There's no shortage of people who could potentially be scum with BBT though.

[Yosarian2]

24 hours left to lynch. choose texcat or lowell imo

The BBT wagon is still as big as either, and I stil think he's more like to flip scum.

[Yosarian2]

Not my first choice, but texcat is on my list of people I'd be willing to compromise lynch in a pinch, so I'll hammer before deadline if I absolutely have to.

Although the way so many people are so opposed to the BBT wagon for such weak reasons just makes him even more likely to be scum. If BBT was town I tend to think he'd be lynched right now.

[Yosarian2]

Although the way so many people are so opposed to the BBT wagon for such weak reasons just makes him even more likely to be scum. If BBT was town I tend to think he'd be lynched right now.

I said this exact thing a little while ago. What are your feelings on Kop and Kmd?

Kmd is town.

Kop is suspicious. And unlike certain others, he's actually suspicious no matter if BBT is town or scum.

[Yosarian2]

Is anyone else on right now?

[Yosarian2]

I'm going out, but I'm going to try to check in one more time before deadline, in about an hour. If nothing's changed by then I guess I'll have to hammer texcat.

[Yosarian2]

I prefer a BBT lynch.

I would as well. Are there 2 people online right now willing and able to hammer BBT? I don't want to risk a no lynch, and while I don't have a great feeling about this wagon a texcat lynch isn't obviously terrible.

[Yosarian2]

I mean my meeting starts at 9 so i dont have much time here

[Yosarian2]

Unless at least 1 more person votes BBT in the next 10-15 minutes I'm hammering Texcat. Last chance.

[Yosarian2]

unvote

vote:texcat

[Yosarian2]

Nice shot, Albert.

Let me go back and review Kop's posting.

[Yosarian2]

Two things jump out at me:

Kop kept his vote on Lowell for a long time. Lowell now looks more town.

Kop tried really, really hard to convince everyone that Yos vs BBT was "town vs town", and to argue against anyone who wanted to lynch BBT. He had a big debate with Anen about that in one of his last posts.

I still think that BBT is the best lynch. His tunnel of Yos is scummy. The resistance to his wagon increases my scum read on him. If he were town, scum would have jumped on his wagon and he'd be dead by now. Lynching BBT would resolve the situation and give us a ton of info.

My other scum reads are Kop, and now an OMGUS read of KMD.

Lynch for info? I know information is good, but I wouldn't lynch someone just to resolve an issue that shouldn't really be an issue.

If we lynch BBT, and if he flips town, then what do we do? Where does that put Yos? Do we lynch Yos to see if BBT was telling the truth?

I'm sure a cop or some sort of investigative role, will rectify the whole issue better than a lynch that could flip either way, and leave us doubting again tomorrow.

I think it's very likely that Kop was scum with BBT, based on his posts.

vote:BlueBloodedToffee

[Yosarian2]

vote: lucky

What? Like it was any secret I was going to shoot AI? Scum killed ABR and he clearly killed kop. I'm confirmed town at this point unless someone counter claims me. Which would be hilarious to me. This setup is two vigilantes max, and I'm claiming the second.

You're not confirmed town. It's actually fairly likely that you're a SK.

[Yosarian2]

lol, lynch me. My death gets town alot info.

Let me put it this way, Lucky. Town is on odds now, with 9 players alive. If you really are town, then shooting someone else tonight would be playing against your win condition, since it would put the town on evens and just cost us a lynch. Basically, if you are town, your job from now on is to hold your fire and not shoot unless something weird happens like a missed kill and puts us back on evens again.

Can you do that?

[Yosarian2]

I understand what you are saying yos but I'm not understanding why you are saying it. Help me here. As town, if you are suspicious of me being SK, what motivation do you have to trust me to do this? If I am an SK or if I'm the town vig I claim to be I'm going to agree, and unless I'm the worst SK ever, I'm going to hold my kill. However that just sets me up for a mislynch tomorrow rather than today.

If you hold your kill, then that helps the town, no matter what your alignment is.

So long as you keep holding your kill, I think it's in the town's advantage to hunt mafia first and then figure you out later. For example, if we lynch 3 mafia members and the game still isn't over, at that point we know you have to be a SK and can lynch you. If there are ever two deaths in a night, then of course we lynch you right away.

There are a lot of ways this could play out, it depends what roles the town has, what kind of scum flips we have (there are only a limited number of possible setups here) and on what else happens, but so long as you can keep it in your pants, I'm willing to wait.

If you're not willing to agree, then frankly I don't care what your alignment is, I'll lynch you anyway, because a rogue vig shooting wildly when it's not the right move will really screw over the town anyway.

[Yosarian2]

Kop did everything he could do discourage people from lynching BBT specifically.

[Yosarian2]

He really only mentioned it 3 times. The first two times, he calls me vs bbt "town vs town", and the third time is the thing you're talking about where he argues against lynching BBT for info.

Considering he only posted 22 times and half of that was prod dodges, though, that still seems like a lot.

[Yosarian2]

So calling you vs BBT town vs town twice and saying BBT being an info lynch sucks = doing everything he can to discourage people from lynching BBT, specifically? Even with 22 posts, that's not much. Could the arguement be made that he didn't want you lynched either? BBT only got one mention without you and it was when a BBT lynch was being discussed. I mean, yeah I'm playing devil's advocate here, but it's because your word choice feels like hyperbole and it's not the first time I've felt that way about you this game.

(shrug) Like I said, in a read-through of his ISP, the only two things that really stood out to me were Kop's attacks on Lowell (who he mentioned in a negitive way 4 times) and Kop's defense of BBT, which he did 3 times.

Other then that, he random voted texcat and never mentioned her again, he called put AI in his scum list early scum once and called him town once later, and he put Lucky on his scum list. And that's literally all he did.

So compared to everything else Kop did, yeah, his attack on Lowell and his defense BBT really stands out to me. When I say "he was doing everything he could", I'm putting in the context of all of Kop's posting; he didn't do much of anything yesterday, but the effort he put into defending BBT is higher then the effort he put into doing anything else, except maybe attacking Lowell. Do you disagree?

[Yosarian2]

And sure, if you didn't know better, you could claim that the first two "town vs town" posts were designed to be a defense of me instead of a defense of BBT. Is that really what you think, KMD?

[Yosarian2]

Sorry, there was another post earlier where he mentions he finds lucky and AI "unsettling", so I guess he mentioned them in a negitive way twice each. Still, I think my point stands.