Open 620: Duck Duck Goose Game Over, Mafia Victory
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 20, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:Oh yeah I'm not gonna bother signing posts because I'll just forget at the scummiest moment
Can you explain what you meant by this? Please define what you mean by "scummiest moment". I just glossed over it because I did not understand it. And can everyone else who thinks that it is scummy explain why?-
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Mathilda Goon
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I'm getting the sense that Newbie might not actually in fact be ... a newbie.
Which then suggests someone actually quite experienced at this game because they appreciate the value of being under estimated.
Why is this important? Because I like how she is scum hunting. But if she is experienced then could be this be a scum tactic to play as close to town as possible? Well there's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case for the moment so I am going to put her on my town pile for now.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 80, Something Pip wrote:
In post 75, Mathilda wrote:I'm getting the sense that Newbie might not actually in fact be ... a newbie.
Which then suggests someone actually quite experienced at this game because they appreciate the value of being under estimated.
Why is this important? Because I like how she is scum hunting. But if she is experienced then could be this be a scum tactic to play as close to town as possible? Well there's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case for the moment so I am going to put her on my town pile for now.
Wait did you think newbie was a newbie because their name was newbie?
Generally you look at experience based on how many posts they have etc. not their username. I'm trying to understand why this post was made- your point seems to be
that you are townreading Newbie only if she is a new player, if not it is a scumread? Well guess what I don't think Newbie is actually new to this game. This feels like you think Newbie might get wagoned here, so it lets you say "Oh Newbie isn't a new player, I think her early game was scummy" and sneak on the wagon without having to actually worry about going after Newbie.
Also I'm not sure that reason is a good reason to scumread someone. Basically you are scumreading a player for seeming town. I would say that opens a can of WIFOM, but honestly that strategy just doesn't work. A good player might be able to look towny as scum, but they would also probably be able to look towny as town.
@JF3, that was just me trying to sort you and Newbie and failing, if you don't see any real point in answering the questions you don't have to.
Now this is a very interesting response. It's deliberately misrepresenting what I said. I'll accept that you might not quite get dry humour, especially over the medium of electronic text, but I did conclude by saying
"Well there's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case for the moment so I am going to put her on my town pile for now."
That was my very last sentence so you don't have a plausible excuse for thinking that I was reading newbie as scum. Of course I know that "newbie" is a name and not a status bestowed upon a player by the almighty mods of Mafia. But my point remains that the playerchoseto call themselves "newbie". She chose it for a reason.
What your posts suggests to me is that you are deliberately looking for means to cast suspicion on a player rather than looking for slips. The former is a sign of someone wanting to cause a mislynch, the latter is a sign of someone trying to discover who is scum.
VOTE: Something Pip-
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Mathilda Goon
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Sorry for needing to be prodded. I am watching this game. Wasn't sure what to post because there's so little content, but I suppose that's probably part of the reason why there is so little content. I'm going to re-read the entire thread again and be more active.
I've never played a game with a hydra before. The concept is new to me. I'm thinking through the mechanics of it. It's like an entire faction in one. If one member of the scum team of three slots was a hydra then there would be 6 scum players. That sounds somewhat mental.
So far the only person who I know for sure is town is Frozen Angel for #107. I hadn't read the possible set-ups.-
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 44, Something Pip wrote:All heads have the same wincon, so if one head is acting scummy, then the others explaining will not take away that scumminess
In theory, but what about replacements? Quite often someone with a large lynch wagon will ask to be replaced, and the replacement comes in looking all towny and doing all the necessary scum hunting required of them until the lynch wagon moves onto someone else.
Sometimes the slot is scum, sometimes it's town, but it's always the same alignment and people often forget how they originally perceived a slot. Even without a replacement, the same player can quickly get to L-1 at the beginning of the day and end up completely trusted by the end of the game without any mod confirmation.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 50, Sharky5x wrote:This is weak.
I disagree, conc looks bad to me as well.
I can totally see scum making a post like that at any time in the game.In post 49, Newbie wrote:In post 14, concvex wrote:People should sheep my vote, it's quite a good vote.
I can't see scum making a post like this. Even if it was just a joke, I'd expect a bit more self consciousness. I also understand how concvex could've found what BE pointed out about RF3 as scummy.
VOTE: concvex
These kind of posts really catch my eye. Very short sentences passing judgement on someone with no explanation as to how they arrived at that conclusion. There's very little self doubt or wondering whether they are correct or not. Remember scum know the alignment of everyone, town are in the dark. Scum don't care who they mislynch lynch, town are looking for very specific tells.
Why is concvex's vote on RF3 weak? Why do you disagree with Newbie's vote on RF3 being OMGUSsy? Is it that OMGUSing is not a scum tell or that you don't think it was OMGUS? Why not try to sway our opinions? And if scum can make a post like conc's at any time then can town make posts like that as well? Or do you find it a specifically scummy post? If so why?
Now compare it to the following response:
In post 51, Newbie wrote:I can't see it happening on the first page of the first day phase, a time when scum tend to be extra cautious.
This looks more townie. It looks like someone is trying to explain their reasoning. It gives a chance for other town to correct their assumptions. For example, I can come along and argue that if scum can let their guard down at any point then it would be the first day. Because if they do make a post that looks in any way scummy then it can eventually be forgotten as more information becomes available. This becomes harder to do the longer the game plays on. Yes scum try to avoid attention, but eventually they will receive attention anyway if they don't participate.
This exchange makes me lean scum on Sharkey.-
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 69, Burning_Earth wrote:
Also I am now thinking RF3 is town (genuine frustration). Newbie and concvex look like possible scumbuddies to me. Newbie jumping into the defence of concvex really weakly is scummy af. And so is concvex' jump on to the RF wagon.
Do scum actually come to the defence of each other? In my experience they tend to keep their distance. A bigger tell I find is whether they never interact with each other at all over the course of the entire game and just read each other as null. Or they accuse each other with things that do not stand up to scrutiny to give the appearance of scum hunting.-
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Mathilda Goon
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I've been reading the thread again, this time with far more attention. I was only glossing over it the first time because I was busy over the Christmas period. The second time I've been reading Pip as town so I'm going to unvote him.
UNVOTE: Something Pip-
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Mathilda Goon
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VOTE: TheDominator
Fluff poster doing the minimum necessary to register a presence but does not explain any of his thoughts or votes. Anti-town at best.
Why is he voting for Something Pip in #url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7526317]#132[/url]?
It could be that he's not paying much attention to the game, but some pressure might give us extra information that we need to determine whether this is the case or not.-
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 218, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:In post 213, Mathilda wrote:VOTE: TheDominator
Fluff poster doing the minimum necessary to register a presence but does not explain any of his thoughts or votes. Anti-town at best.
Why is he voting for Something Pip in #132?
It could be that he's not paying much attention to the game, but some pressure might give us extra information that we need to determine whether this is the case or not.
In my experience pressure works best when you state it's pressure outright. Really lends gravity to the vote. Makes it seem serious.
I may be somewhat mistaken, but I'm picking up ... no, wondering if I am perhaps sensing a possible hint of sarcasm from you? Maybe?
Being serious though, it still adds pressure because if he doesn't answer to my satisfaction then I'll just keep the vote on him. And I'll keep pushing for more information. Stating what we all know to be true rather than pretending that we all aren't fully aware of how this game works doesn't change the reality of the situation.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 226, droog wrote:In post 16, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:Two wagons and you're RVSing with nothing else to say?
scummy
In post 19, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:I'm no expert but I believe that Johnny made those last 3 posts.
scummy
In post 20, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:Oh yeah I'm not gonna bother signing posts because I'll just forget at the scummiest moment
yuck
In post 21, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:Hoo boy. This game moves, huh?
yuck
scummy
yuck-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 231, droog wrote:In post 40, Mathilda wrote:In post 20, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:Oh yeah I'm not gonna bother signing posts because I'll just forget at the scummiest moment
Can you explain what you meant by this? Please define what you mean by "scummiest moment". I just glossed over it because I did not understand it. And can everyone else who thinks that it is scummy explain why?
this post is werid
mathilda puts pressure on rf3 when everyone else is
but doesnt vote
kind of jumping on the wagon without committing
I wasn't putting pressure on RF3, merely asking for an explanation. I am trying to generate information.
And why should I vote for RF3? I don't see any reason to yet.
In post 231, droog wrote:
also
mathilda never responds
rf3 gives a good reply in [url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p7518706]#40[/url
did mathilda really care about the ansewr?
Why should I respond if I am satisfied with the response?
This all looks contrived by you to find distract people from the lynch wagon on your slot. This in itself makes me read you as scum. More so than anyone else I have voted for so far.
VOTE: Droog / Concvex-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 233, droog wrote:In post 85, Lowell wrote:UNVOTE: newbie
VOTE: something pip
80 is the longest post to say nothing. Also ironically, it does what it purports to *facepalm*. Yes, 75 is pretty dumb, but Mathilda is the easy target here, and your obsession is overwrought. I get the vibe of scum happy to be able to jump in on a dumb comment and make hay with it. Way too much hay.
i agree with loweell
when mathilda said "newbie isnt a newbie something's up! " my first thought was
'mathilda is fake newbslipping and spip is letting him get away with it"
Admittedly after reading through the thread again my post did look completely out of place. Like many people though I wasn't paying much attention to the thread because of the Christmas holidays. I skimmed through the thread and posted, not realising that the game had actually progressed on a lot more than I had realised. But I knew that I had to be more active so I posted something in which the dry humour was missed by most people.
People often mistake me for a noob when the reality is that I just don't care to conform. I can conform if I want to, like when I am scum. Not that I mind being considered a noob. I recognise that every forum has it's own style of Mafia and yes sometimes it takes a while to figure out what that style is. I am still learning about this particular site. I am finding it quite useful though to see how people react to the way I play. It can be quite revealing. Are people being opportunistic and looking for an easy lynch? Are they just steeped in the culture of this particular site? Are they genuinely questioning and thinking through what I have said?
For example the fact that Lowell hasn't warned about going for an easy target suggests that he is more concerned about finding the right person to lynch rather than achieving a lynch regardless. This makes him more town in my eyes.-
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 236, droog wrote:In post 179, Lowell wrote:UNVOTE: whoever
VOTE: conc
To add pressure. This looks like the kind of game where we just wagon everyone to get them to wake up. Wake me when it's my turn.
*yawns*
scum scum scum scum
Why?-
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 269, droog wrote:i also thought mathildas post on you
about how 'hes not a newb omg :O"
was her trying to newbslip
she's playted just too many games
for me to believe she really thought that
This is a definite misrepresentation of what I said and makes me lean more scum on you. I have already explained what I made that post #91 #249
The opening sentence of that post was meant to be whimsical and wry and not to be taken seriously. Point out where I expressed outright surprise as suggested with your "omg :O"-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 273, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:
Mathilda wrote:Why should I respond if I am satisfied with the response?
This all looks contrived by you to find distract people from the lynch wagon on your slot. This in itself makes me read you as scum. More so than anyone else I have voted for so far.
These first 2 sentences give me some bad vibes. Most of the votes on droog are about conc's entrance.
And so now when there's content from that slot - droog replacing in with pressure, you now say he's scum for giving reads and pushing other people?
What about droogs' posts exactly seem like a distraction?
Another thing - what about my 'response' satisfied you?(I'm assuming it's a post that I made?)
~Taly
I'll let you answer that one by asking you this question. What is there in your response #41 that is not satisfactory?
Here is the quote in full
In post 41, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:In post 40, Mathilda wrote:In post 20, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:Oh yeah I'm not gonna bother signing posts because I'll just forget at the scummiest moment
Can you explain what you meant by this? Please define what you mean by "scummiest moment". I just glossed over it because I did not understand it. And can everyone else who thinks that it is scummy explain why?
I meant I'm just gonna not sign from the start, because I will inevitably forget, and when I do someone will try to turn it against us. It's a bullshit thing that happens always with hydras so I figure I'll deal with it now instead of later in when it might be important.
There will be dissonance in this hydra. All of us are talkative, all of us will be around to answer for ourselves. Learn that now.
Can't think of anything that is not satisfactory? No? Me neither. Or do you just want me to make up something in order to answer people's questions?-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 290, droog wrote:idk how to respond to taly on wallposting
i dont feel strongly about it
maybe save for endgame
I have to ask you.
Are you posting in Haiku?
From your mobile phone?-
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 385, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:Nvm read Lowell instead of droog, thought everyone was insane. Why you not mention Lowell Hildy?
I need to ISO him carefully to see whether he is just inactive or making sure to keep his head under the radar. I plan to do that next.-
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Mathilda Goon
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Well it didn't take long to ISO Lowell. It actually took longer to find one of his posts in order to click 'ISO'.
I'm not sure that there's enough information to say with any confidence whether or he is scum keeping his head down or whether he is just not taking part in the game. That's understandable to begin with because it took a while for this game to become busy, but things are happening now but he hasn't come back. He's been prodded in the past and he's said that the weekend is not good for him so I think we should start applying far more pressure after today if he does not change his ways.
As far as I can see there is only one post where he attempts any scum hunting #85. At most he's just saying a short sentence such as X and Y are town, or vote Z but without giving any reasons.
Lowell should definitely stay on the watch list, but I would feel happier lynching someone who gives off scummy vibes by the way that they are posting rather than just because they are inactive. That gives us more confidence that we're lynching because they are rather scum rather than anti-town.-
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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If there is no chance of the lynch wagon moving onto either Droog or Dom then I am willing to hammer Lowell. I am not as confident that he is scum as the other two but there is still a good chance that he is scum. At the very least we're removing a player who is not pro-town. Other than Droog and Dom, I'm certainly more confident voting for Lowell than for anyone else at this point in the game.
Stating intention to hammer.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 389, Something Pip wrote:Mathilda can you make a case for why Newbie is town? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.
Because she is scum-hunting and trying to think critically about what people are saying. I know that experienced scum will hide by scum hunting but I haven't really found any reason to suggest that this is the case with Newbie over any other players who are also scum hunting.
Newbie can also be suspicious of anyone that is town reading her (e.g. me with my weird post about her being a newbie). Scum on the other hand need to be more careful about avoiding people's attentions and the temptation for them is to not contend town reads on themselves from townies.-
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Mathilda Goon
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It is not a vanity wagon because RF3 moved his vote from Lowell thereby stopping an imminent hammer. Calling it a vanity wagon suggests that the wagon has had no effect whatsoever when clearly it has.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 415, Lowell wrote:Are people finally starting to realize I'm town? It's about damn time.
dom is another player I just noticed. It seems most games he starts and then quits. He hasn't quit here, maybe he likes his role more because it is scum?
I worry about how many scum might be on your lynch wagon if you are town. Ironically you might be the easy lynch target now for being so inactive.
I am far less suspicious of people calling for another lynch wagon near the end of a day phase than those who joined the first genuine lynch wagon that came along. And I am now more suspicious of sPip for criticising RF3 for pulling out when you were at at L-1 and I stated an intent to hammer #411.
If you are town then of course you are going to be worried about whether the lynch is correct. One could argue that RF3 stopping the imminent hammer was distancing but that only works if you obviously need to be lynched and it will happen anyway. This is not the case here.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 416, droog wrote:Mathilda
Seems kind of weird
That you are willing to hammer loweell
But say that radvantage is clearly having an effect
If you really are OK with lyrics chiggers loweell
Aren't we still I'm the same spot
Sorry I didn't understand this. I think your predictive text went haywire.-
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 428, droog wrote:Ok so here's my problem
Basedan on mathilda 420
Loweell
And radiant
There are a few people who find the loweell wagon
Has scum on it
Are you seriously suggesting that the Lowell lynch wagon does not have any scum on it?
That rarely happens and if it does, scum normally win.
That happened on my only scum game on this forum and only because town had a tendency to collectively death-tunnel at the drop of a hat. I remember someone mentioning during the game how an all-town lynch wagon on day 1 would more often than not break town.
You are making me think that Lowell might be town. Or have I misunderstood you?-
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Mathilda Goon
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Well, you for a start.
Probability is though that scum will be on the wagon. It is unlikely for scum not to be, especially in a slow game where people are reluctant to lynch and are not collectively suffering from cognitive bias.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 443, Something Pip wrote:I don't understand why this day hasn't ended yet. Not one person has produced any convincing reason to believe that Lowell is town.
Obviously the people pushing for a Lowell lynch have not made a convincing enough argument that he is scum. People are all guilty until proved innocent in a Mafia game but we only have one lynch which means that we go for the best case on one person to be lynched. We can't rely on PoE on Day 1.
In post 443, Something Pip wrote:
And for those who wonder who is scum on Lowell's wagon, my belief is that there aren't any (scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda) but if there are then it's Scorpious or shaddow.
And this makes me suspicious of you as well. Maybe I was right with my initial impression of you.
In post 443, Something Pip wrote:
We can either sit here arguing our way to a no lynch, or we can lynch Lowell and, at the very worst, gain information from the flip.
We're gaining information now by seeing who is pushing for a Lowell lynch with very little information to go on and who don't bother making a good case for doing so, but telling people that it should be a default action to lynch him.
In post 443, Something Pip wrote:
(At best of course we will lynch one scum, with another [Newbie] soon to follow.) If Lowell flips town then several people have some explaining to do, and likewise if he flips scum.
The same could be said for lynching anyone in this game. You and me included. Tell us why Lowell is thebestcandidate for lynching today.
In post 443, Something Pip wrote:
The fact that the discussion has switched to "who on the wagon is scum?" means that our focus has shifted away from Lowell himself and toward how people have interacted with him. This discussion will only yield anything once he flips.
This is scum motivation here, not town. Town are worried about mislynching but want to generate information. Scum just want a mislynch.
I'm reading you as scum now.
So to answer Droog's question, that's both Droog and sPip as scum on the Lowell lynch wagon, which then means that it's more likely that Lowell is town and just an inactive player. I shall now be voting for him. Find someone else to finish your lynch wagon.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 447, Lowell wrote:The fact that a lot of people are talking about who is or isn't town on my wagon makes me think a lot of people think I'm not actually scum.
Keep up. It's me talking about scum on your wagon with Droog and sPip saying scum are the ones not voting. It's comments like these from you which are suspicious, but for me it's Droog and sPip defence of their push to lynch you that's even more suspicious.
This is why I am reading you as anti town and not scum.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 443, Something Pip wrote:(scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda)
Another thing. Isn't it more likely that scum would be throwing their scum buddies under a bus the moment a definite lynch wagon developed on one of them? If I was a scum buddy with Lowell I would most certainly be voting for him right now. I wouldn't be sticking my neck out arguing with those wanting to lynch him. That's because I would know that he was scum and likely to be lynched and that I would be next in line.
Yes there is WIFOM and all that, but it's still best to stay away from suspicion if you can as scum. This is why your scum read is flawed at best.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 461, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:
In post 458, Mathilda wrote:Obviously the people pushing for a Lowell lynch have not made a convincing enough argument that he is scum.
I need you to look at post 215 and tell me how it isn't the scummiest post in the game.
Actually hold up I have more problems with Hildy's posts so I'm gonna dedicate a post to it
I would argue that it's not so much scummy as someone who isn't engaged in the game or cares what happens in it. The key sentence here is "This game is going nowhere." Even noob scum, assuming that they are interested in winning, would be stating that Concv is scum and that we should vote for him rather than come out with such an apathetic response.
For reference the post in question:
In post 215, Lowell wrote:In post 211, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:I mean I guess Concev could be scum, but there's no where near enough content from the slot.
Very true. Vote him anyway. This game is going nowhere.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 462, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:In post 458, Mathilda wrote:
In post 443, Something Pip wrote:
And for those who wonder who is scum on Lowell's wagon, my belief is that there aren't any (scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda) but if there are then it's Scorpious or shaddow.
And this makes me suspicious of you as well. Maybe I was right with my initial impression of you.
Why? Do you suspect everyone who disagrees with/suspects you?
Not at all.
As I stated, I am suspicious of people unwilling to entertain the idea that there are scum on the Lowell lynch wagon.
In post 462, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:
In post 458, Mathilda wrote:
In post 443, Something Pip wrote:
We can either sit here arguing our way to a no lynch, or we can lynch Lowell and, at the very worst, gain information from the flip.
We're gaining information now by seeing who is pushing for a Lowell lynch with very little information to go on and who don't bother making a good case for doing so, but telling people that it should be a default action to lynch him.
Are you confident enough in Lowell-town to act on that information? If so, why? If not, what the fuck are you talking about?
I am not confident that Lowell is town, but I am getting scummier vibes from sPip and Droog. They could be bussing their scum buddy as far as I know.
- Anti-town is not the same as scum play
- Lowell is anti-town because of his apathy. Droog and sPip are actively pushing for anti-town action.
- How do you tell the difference between an apathetic town player and scum?
- Lynching an apathetic anti-town player does not help town because it generates very little information.
- Town are generally more worried about mislynching because they lack information, especially on day 1. Droog and sPip don't seem worried about not having the necessary information to avoid a mislynch yet they don't ever state a clear cut case against Lowell.
- Lowell may well be scum, or he may be an easy lynch because of his apathy and anti-town play, but regardless I don't want to do what scum wants me to do.
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 465, Something Pip wrote:hahahahahahaha
Mathilda that is LITERALLY the scummiest thing I have ever read.
LITERALLY? As in being literal? You mean my post was the scummiest post that you have ever read in your entire history of playing Mafia?
And the overly exaggerated laugh 'hahahahahaha'?
It's obvious that you are trying to cajole me. Have you considered using a or ? Because that always works in convincing people.
In post 465, Something Pip wrote:
That's defending your partner, chainsawing his attackers, AND pushing no-lynch. Hey I've done that before...as scum.A5)3
Maybe you just suck as scum.
In post 465, Something Pip wrote:
Okay. Lowell is scummy duein partto the fact that he is antitown. He is also using random and unjustified attacks and read swings, promoting apathy, using AtE, being willing to lynch anybody who isn't him, and putting words in people's mouths.
If that is all you were pushing then I would have been far less suspicious. Why all the cajoling and being absolutely sure about who scum is and that none of them are on the Lowell lynch wagon?
In post 465, Something Pip wrote:
With that out of the way, let me just take a moment to laugh at the person pushing no-lynch (no other lynch can realistically happen today) and callingusantitown.
Yes let's all laugh at someone pushing for a no-lynch. Who is that again? I don't know. No one ever has. Where did I ever push for a no-lynch? Like Droog you're misrepresenting what I have said. This is scummy behaviour.
In post 465, Something Pip wrote:
Let's see... "Generates little information" is a lie. If Lowell flips scum we have basically caught the scumteam.
And as pointed out to you before, you can say the same thing about everyone.
Let's lynch you instead. If you flip scum then we have basically caught the scum team.
Because you are sure that Lowell is scum and are laughing at anyone who questions your push.
In post 465, Something Pip wrote:
But going around saying "oh but what if he's town" up until the end is whiteknighting.
Only if the other person is scum and an extremely poor player. I am neither.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that town don't also have doubts about whether the person about to be lynched is also town? Because if so I can point you to times when this has happened.
But again, in your fantasy world, scum play simplistically it seems. They never lynch a scum buddy and always come to each other's defence. You seem a much better player than to believe that tripe which is why I have you down as scum.
Scum certainly don't.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 478, Something Pip wrote: Saying that right now Mathilda is aiming for a droog lynch is inaccurate, Mathilda right now is aiming for a no-lynch by pushing a droog wagon. Droog absolutely will not be lynched today.
Now unless you think town gains more information by not lynching today, I don't see how what you two are doing is not anti town.
Again this is incorrect and another example of you casts undue suspicion on people. It is a major reason why I find you scummy. I never said that I was pushing for a no lynch and I never said that what I would do if it looked like a no lynch was likely. There's still more than a day left. That's enough time for a counter-wagon. If Lowell does get lynched then I want to see who does the final hammer. If it came to it and it was a choice of a Lowell lynch or nothing then I would hammer Lowell myself. I even stated an intention to hammer Lowell myself earlier on before RF3 removed his vote.
To me the value of hammering Lowell lays not in seeing whether he is scum, but in seeing who steps forward to make sure it happens. The flip will give me a better idea as to the alignment of you and Droog.-
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Mathilda Goon
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I haven't really had time today to put forward the kind of detailed case with post references that I want against Droog and Pip, but essentially the thing that makes me suspicious is that they both misrepresent what people say in their reply. I'm trying to think of a better word, a strawman argument I suppose. But they will reply as if you said something completely different to what you actually did, but in a way that casts more suspicion on you.
With the old rule of thumb about looking at a player's motivation, this comes across as scummy. It is in town's interests to look at alternative points of view and to be able to determine whether they are correct or not. It is in scum's interests to make another poster look scummy.
They also were both denying the possibility that scum are not on the Lowell lynch wagon. While possible the chances of that happening are slim even when town suffer from a mob mentality, and judging by the slow pace of this game, I would say extremely slim. Yet they were both so adamant about it being the case. I know that town players can suffer from cognitive bias and tunnelling, but the fact that they were both doing this made me suspicious.
The thing is that we're Day 1 and we don't have any information to go on, so why the tunnelling? What I am suspicious of is that because is that a counter wagon was on scum which meant that Mafia needed to really push hard for an alternative wagon. This and the fact that the game has been slow to start meant that scum probably hasn't had the chance to just hang back and wait for town to form their own lynch wagon. So when someone has questioned whether there are better lynches, they have been cajoled into conforming. This more than anything has made my hackles raise. It is perfectly reasonable for a town player to wonder whether we're all somehow mistaken or are suffering from a collective cognitive bias. The more I've been cajoled the more suspicious I've become.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 527, Karnage wrote:In post 525, RadiantalyFarrar3 wrote:
In post 519, Karnage wrote:VOTE: newbie
Spent the latter part of Day 1 talking about scum being on lowell's wagon and talking then votes lowell to put him at L-1 two days before the deadline before disappearing for the remainder of the day. I get be willing to lynch somebody thats not a scum read to avoid a no-lynch but not at that point in the day.
I don't understand this post?
In your posts; I don't exactly see you saying that scum was on Lowell's wagon? And you put him to L-3 not L-1?
And you'd be willing to vote anyone that's NOT a scumread to avoid no-lynch? Eugh...
What are your reasons for thinking Newbie is scum?
My post should have said "Newbie spent the latter part of Day 1..."
Except that Newbie did not spend the latter part of Day 1 talking about scum on the Lowell lynch wagon. That was me. If you ISO Newbie then she was focusing more on Dom. The only time she mentioned it was in response to a direct question from Droog #403.-
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Mathilda Goon
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 533, MrTrow wrote:VOTE: mathilda
Your counter-wagon cases yesterday seemed to be divided between:
- independent of Lowells allignment
- based on the assumption he was town.
Where did I assume that he was town? I think Lowell appeared somewhat scummy, but I also wasn't sure that he wasn't just an apathetic player. As it turned out I wasright. What made memoresuspicious though was the push by Something Pip and Droog the closer we got to the deadline and how they were absolutely sure that there were no scum on the Lowell wagon. My reckoning was that even if Lowell was scum then there was likely to be at least one scum on there distancing themselves from him. Remember at one point I even said that I was prepared to hammer Lowell. RF3 objected, but it was the objections to any dissent that caught my eye.
Given a choice between apathetic anti-town play and pro-active scummy play, I'll vote for the latter.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 540, Something Pip wrote:I'm ok with Newbie or Mathilda, basically have a death tunnel on both.
In post 537, droog wrote:pbpa?
Point By Point Analysis. Basically quoting a whole bunch of posts and explaining why they're scummy.
-the smart head
So hold on. You and Droog were really pushing hard for a mislynch yesterday and thinking that everyone who was unsure was scummy. Now you're pushing hard to lynch those very people who were proven right??
I suppose it's true, offence really is the best defence.
VOTE: Something Pip-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 540, Something Pip wrote:I'm ok with Newbie or Mathilda,basically have a death tunnel on both.
Let's think about this for a moment. Despite death tunneling Lowell yesterday, Pip here does exactly the same thing today.
From a single player you could argue that maybe it's just their style of play (if you're being diplomatic about it that is).
But Pip is a hydra. That means that there are two (?) players co-ordinating their actions. It is far less likely that both players just happen to suffer from the same fixation and susceptibility to confirmation bias. It is more likely that the two players have decided in advance who they will be pushing for today.
Now compare this to RF3. Here we have a hydra with three heads. In terms of balance, is it likely that we would have two hydras in the same faction? That would mean 5 brains working on one problem. It's more likely TvS.
So which one is which?
RF3 has been inconsistent. In a single player this would be scummy but in a hydra it suggests a lack of information and different people trying to figure things out. This suggests that RF3 is town.
Something Pip on the other hand has been very strong in his reads and openly admits to death tunneling despite pushing hard for a mislynch. There's no doubt here. No lack of confidence that you see with other players who have death tunnelled and been proven wrong. This suggests to me that a co-ordinated plan to lynch someone specific rather than to try to find scum. This tells me that Something Pip is scum.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 543, Something Pip wrote:In post 526, Something Pip wrote:So if I had any really strong reads right now I would be trying to slow my other head down, but I don't I'm fine with him (hey something keep pushing peeps) to keep doing the newbie stuff until I get a hard scumread on someone for something. The whole hydra PT Yesterday was "Newbie, Mathilda and Lowell are confScum, the game is solved" and of all those Lowell was my hardest scumread so I have to reevaluate.
-pip
mathilda please actually read our posts. I just said that my head doesn't have any strong reads
Apologies, I forgot about that post.
UNVOTE: Something Pip-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 547, shaddowez wrote:In post 544, Mathilda wrote:In post 543, Something Pip wrote:In post 526, Something Pip wrote:So if I had any really strong reads right now I would be trying to slow my other head down, but I don't I'm fine with him (hey something keep pushing peeps) to keep doing the newbie stuff until I get a hard scumread on someone for something. The whole hydra PT Yesterday was "Newbie, Mathilda and Lowell are confScum, the game is solved" and of all those Lowell was my hardest scumread so I have to reevaluate.
-pip
mathilda please actually read our posts. I just said that my head doesn't have any strong reads
Apologies, I forgot about that post.
UNVOTE: Something Pip
So between everything you wrote in 541 and 542, the deciding factor on whether they're worthy of a vote is whether or not they have strong reads? Something smells off about that.
Yeah I knew someone would pounce on this before I posted. But yes, I was voting for him because he was displaying a strong read despite clearly being wrong. And now it has been pointed out that my vote was based on incomplete data I retracted it.
I'm still really suspicious of Something Pip but if I had remembered that post that was pointed out to me then I would have held back and waited to see what happened next. The thing is that how the person reacts to a mislynch is extremely telling and gives us a lot of information. Unfortunately something pip is a bloody hydra and one is playing really scummy (the so-called smart head) and the other has at least made a few towny sounds which means I need to think about it further. God I hate playing with Hydras. I never even realised they existed before this game.
Droog is my other main suspect. But I'm wondering if he's either scum or actually just a crap player. Look at his signature, I'm wondering if he's one of these players who play like scum all the time.
"...probably the worst player I have had the pleasure of playing with in the last ten years..."
"i dislike this guy immensely"
To be honest I don't really read his posts any more except on the odd occasion when he starts posting a bit more lucidly.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 546, droog wrote:In post 541, Mathilda wrote:You and Droog were really pushing hard for a mislynch yesterday
we iddnt know at the time it was a mislnchy
or at least i didnt
youre ust spinning a narrative
Yes but you and Something Pip didn't even contemplate the idea that it might have been. You did not display any doubt. This was in Day 1. Town starts with no information whatsoever so doubt is natural because we're essentially just guessing. Scum start knowing that everyone else is town so they have far less doubt about who needs to be lynched. This needs to be faked and faking is difficult.
I didn't know that it was a mislynch either, and after twilight I was thinking that maybe Lowell was scum after all by the things that he was saying. But I was at leasttrying to lynch scum. There is nothing to suggest that you were worried about which person to lynch. You did not do any scum hunting.
If you pick someone at random then chances are that it's going to be a mislynch. So if you push for that without caring whether you are correct or not, then you are effectively pushing for a mislynch.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 551, shaddowez wrote:In post 550, Mathilda wrote:To be honest I don't really read his posts any more except on the odd occasion when he starts posting a bit more lucidly.
Sadly that's been rare in any of the games I've played with him. I almost always scum read him based on his posting.
That's useful to know. Thank you.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 563, MrTrow wrote:
In post 542, Mathilda wrote:In terms of balance, is it likely that we would have two hydras in the same faction? That would mean 5 brains working on one problem. It's more likely TvS.
So which one is which?
(Why) did you drop this particular argument?
Good question and one which I thought about when unvoting Something Pip. My argument about having 5 people on one faction still applies, but I am not confident enough that by itself it warrants anything more than a FoS towards Something Pip. When I thought that both heads were continuing on as before without re-evaluating their previous reads then I felt that there was enough evidence to warrant the vote.
I'm not going to vote for someone based solely on my own speculation regarding balance. It is only one piece of evidence to take into consideration. By itself it is not enough.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 563, MrTrow wrote:
In post 541, Mathilda wrote: Now you're pushing hard to lynch those very people who were proven right??
So those who made sure they weren't on a mislynch can't be those that knew it would be a mislynch?
As explained before (posted below) the pace of the game hasn't allowed scum to just hang back and avoid jumping on a lynch wagon. Town have been too reticent about lynching to allow that to happen. The chance of scum not being on that lynch wagon were extremely slow yet Something Pip and Droog were adamant that this was not the case which was the main reason why I am suspicious of them both.
In post 507, Mathilda wrote:
The thing is that we're Day 1 and we don't have any information to go on, so why the tunnelling? What I am suspicious of is that because is that a counter wagon was on scum which meant that Mafia needed to really push hard for an alternative wagon. This and the fact that the game has been slow to start meant that scum probably hasn't had the chance to just hang back and wait for town to form their own lynch wagon. So when someone has questioned whether there are better lynches, they have been cajoled into conforming. This more than anything has made my hackles raise. It is perfectly reasonable for a town player to wonder whether we're all somehow mistaken or are suffering from a collective cognitive bias. The more I've been cajoled the more suspicious I've become.
But let's look more closely at what you're saying.
In post 563, MrTrow wrote:
In post 541, Mathilda wrote: Now you're pushing hard to lynch those very people who were proven right??
So those who made sure they weren't on a mislynch can't be those that knew it would be a mislynch?
You are creating a false dichotomy here. It's not a case of deliberately mislynching or deliberately avoiding a mislynch. What you say does not in anyway follow on from what I said. Analysing this in terms of motivation, it looks like you are deliberately trying to make me look scummy. This makes me think that you yourself might be scum.-
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Mathilda Goon
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OK I've probably gone as far as I can for the moment trying to find scum. There are a few things that I need to bear in mind with my scum reads.
Droog seems to always be a scummy player by default and I need to compare his current scummy play with his scummy play when he was actually scum. That means looking at a previous game he played and comparing, which takes time. I've played with people like him before and it's essentially a completely random slot.
Something Pip is a hydra. One head is scummy as usual (the self proclaimed smart head), whereas the other gave some indication of re-evaluating their previous position.
I'm finding it difficult to follow Trow's posts a lot of the time. He doesn't express himself clearly and I'm not entirely sure that he's not reading posts properly. Although he has replaced in so there is a lot of information to process.
So I'm going to do a bit of a PoE to reduce the pool of candidates.
RF3 is town. All three heads have clearly been trying to figure things out.
Shaddowez is town. Probing questions and an active scum hunter.
Karnage: Same.
I'll put Newbie as a slight town lean for the moment. I did note how Newbie joined the lynch wagon but I thought that with 2 days to go and it looking like a counter wagon was not going to succeed it was a reasonable thing to do. Lowell certainly did not play pro-town so lynching him was a valid choice.
This leaves:
Egg who hasn't yet made a proper entrance so I need to reserve judgement.
Who else is there? I'm having trouble keeping track of who has replaced out and who is lurking.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 605, RadiantCowbells wrote:If you don't want to do egg for whatever reason there's other people we can hit up.
Newbie, Mathilda, everyone else who is town. Please. Work with me.
Agreed. People are just repeating the same arguments and ignoring any responses as if they were never made. Trow and Droog are guilty of this. I am sick of repeating myself. I like the idea of town coordinating their actions. Will post properly when I get to work.-
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Mathilda Goon
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In post 571, shaddowez wrote:Mathilda- What did you think of Newbie's jump to defend conc? Also, interested to see what you think if you look at Newbie and droog's ISOs, since you have droog as a scum read.
I'll look into this after responding to the other posts.