Open 620: Duck Duck Goose Game Over, Mafia Victory

[Something Pip]

VOTE: Scorpious
Hi

-the smart head

[Something Pip]

I don't like Burning's logic. All heads have the same wincon, so if one head is acting scummy, then the others explaining will not take away that scumminess, just as a single player can say, "Oh, people always scumread me when I do X", although you could end up scumreading one head and townreading the other (lol). Then you just have to figure out which one is genuine. I think RF3's comment was null, as all alignments wish to avoid being scumread.
On a side note, I intend to sign my posts, but if I forget it shouldn't be hard to tell us apart.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

I didn't understand the townvibes on concvex either. The post he referred to was not pretty scummy, and pretty scummy for page 1 is not even pretty scummy. So why would he call it that?
VOTE: concvex
And I'm getting mild townvibes from RF3, for stating what I had been thinking.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Whoops almost hydraslipped there. Guarantee that I'm gonna do it sooner or later.
I'm feeling honest townie frustration from RF3. To the people with townvibes on concvex, why?

I can't see it happening on the first page of the first day phase, a time when scum tend to be extra cautious.

wifom wifom wifom wifom wifom

Guys I hate the word OMGUS so much. It's one of those buzzwords that new players latch onto for just a bit too long (see also: "misrep" and "buddying")

Agree with this. I think OMGUS has a scummy connotation that shouldn't necessarily be there. It is possible to vote someone right after they vote you and have a real reason.
Concvex, what do you think of Newbie?
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Guys I hate the word OMGUS so much. It's one of those buzzwords that new players latch onto for just a bit too long (see also: "misrep" and "buddying")

If this isn't a misrep, this is looks like an attempt to discredit me.

...

[Something Pip]

What we have here, kids, is a player attempting to invalidate my other head's thoughts. I'm in the process of deciding if that means this player is malicious or if it just means she's stubborn.

I don't like this post at all, I thought that many of the points in that post were valid. All this is is just handwaving away that post and stepping in before your partner reacts to that post.

That vote looks very OMGUS.

VOTE: RF3

Pot calling the kettle black.

How?

Didn't I explain that a sentence later? Let me break it down for you.

>

You state my vote is OMGUS without reasoning. You vote me based off that???

>

My vote on conc was because I didn't understand the townvibes there and I wanted to push, I also didn't understand why he sheeped that vote without saying much beyond it. You seem to have some sort of issue with my push.

Not sure why you are trying to claim the higher ground when that is your reasoning for voting conc.

I make my own idea on not seeing how Conc is getting townvibes and vote there and here you vote and jump on the idea that my vote was bad when I gave my thought process on it.

You don't even state how this is OMGUS.

I think it's OMGUS because you did too much with his reasoning for voting you and then voted him. It's obvious to me he saw BH's reasoning on you as scummy and decided to throw on a vote. Sorry if you don't like.

What are you talking about? My vote and reasoning on conc has nothing to do with the fact that he voted me.

It's that he sheeped over BE's thinking and I decided to push him for a better read.

And when is something too much? I'm going based off of what I see and think. You, however - seem to think that I'm basing this all around the fact that I "don't like" it? This doesn't make any sense...

How is my vote less valid than his?

You're also focusing to much on the idea that my vote is based only on concs thinking with BE - which is wrong. For reasons I've stated.

I'll agree that this early in a game getting hung up about a vote is just kinda dumb,

conc and Mathilda are giving me townvibes so far. I need more people to post before I really get into it. I know that's hypocritical coming from the person with only 2 posts, but I don't have much to work with.

You even could have explained why you had townvibes then, but you sheep-voted out of what BE said - and saw that as a reason to see conc-townvibe?:

Mathilda - Because of post #40. It looks like a person engaging genuinely, trying to figure things out.
conc - Already explained this.

These two reads aren't set in stone, and truthfully, I would like to see more from both.

Well this doesn't tell me anything I didn't know....

Why are you complaining about someone answering your question? This post was exactly what you were asking

People should sheep my vote, it's quite a good vote.

I can't see scum making a post like this. Even if it was just a joke, I'd expect a bit more self consciousness. I also understand how concvex could've found what BE pointed out about RF3 as scummy.

And scum can easily make posts like town. The principle about this is, to you - it isn't self-conscious to ask for sheeping, yet based on what BE said - 1 of my heads saying they wouldn't sign at the scummiest moment - you say this is reason enough to vote.

So - even jokingly - saying you're doing a scummy thing is self-conscious compared to just stating that someone should sheep?

I'm not going to talk about frivolous literal crap if that's the basis of the votes on me. But your logic seems a bit skewed.

I'm not even sure how to respond.

.....

BE's reasoning on his vote against me - in part - is about how the posts in page 1 were self-conscious. Basically one of my heads saying openly that they'd forget to sign at the scummiest moment - Did people really take this seriously, btw? Or self-conscious?

Conc's vote is based around someone elses reasoning - and in part of me not understanding the townvibes on him - made me wonder around peoples thoughts on him.

Again, your response doesn't provide anything to go off of. I don't even know why you're voting me other than that you're creating some sort of dichotomy and then discrediting my thoughts revolved around a push.

Everyone is discrediting everyone else's thoughts, that generally is how d1/RVS is played. I

I'm getting scumvibes from Newbie. Want to get to Conc though.

Geez, I wonder why? Does it have anything to do with me voting you and not seeing conc, your top suspect, as scum?

If this isn't a misrep, this is looks like an attempt to discredit me.

I never mentioned that I got scumvibes from you because of you voting me. It's the fact that these posts so far are of you not entirely explaining yourself, while you say you understand someone else, but finding fault whenever I push against them.

You go as far as to say things like "Sorry if you don't like" or "Is it because I'm not doing what you want" to make it a point to go against what I'm doing. This is seriously unhelpful, and not town-motivated.

Please I'm not asking people to vote or think remotely the same as I do, but your posts do not make any sense in the perspective that as town - we should figure out the game and actively working to take in info. in achieving that.

This part of the post is fairly bad however, the newbie post was general goading, combined with the only reason you have given for your scum suspicions ie not understanding the cerb town vibe

~Taly

Guys I hate the word OMGUS so much. It's one of those buzzwords that new players latch onto for just a bit too long (see also: "misrep" and "buddying")

If this isn't a misrep, this is looks like an attempt to discredit me.

...

^this was smart ICYWW

-pip

[Something Pip]

People should sheep my vote, it's quite a good vote.

I can't see scum making a post like this. Even if it was just a joke, I'd expect a bit more self consciousness. I also understand how concvex could've found what BE pointed out about RF3 as scummy.

What the hell are you talking about? Everyone makes posts like this, all the time.

This is just one of those things that I'll have to agree to disagree.

Scum joking about a

vote wagon

on the

first

page? Nah. Can't see it.

Really? People say that thing all the time, as any alignment in my experience. I really hope you aren't thinking that convex is confTown for this

-pip

[Something Pip]

People should sheep my vote, it's quite a good vote.

I can't see scum making a post like this. Even if it was just a joke, I'd expect a bit more self consciousness. I also understand how concvex could've found what BE pointed out about RF3 as scummy.

What the hell are you talking about? Everyone makes posts like this, all the time.

This is just one of those things that I'll have to agree to disagree.

Scum joking about a

vote wagon

on the

first

page? Nah. Can't see it.

STOP THE WIFOMMMMMMMMM

Newbie and concvex look like possible scumbuddies to me.

Burning, I disagree. If Newbie was scum with concvex then associating with him would be a bad move. But I could see either one of them being scum.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

JF3, I know this might be a little contradictory, but slow down the posts a little, I feel like I understand both newbies and JF3 perspective here and more noise in the thread is just going to let a bunch of other people pressureless which makes me sad. Speaking of which...

I'm getting the sense that Newbie might not actually in fact be ... a newbie.

Which then suggests someone actually quite experienced at this game because they appreciate the value of being under estimated.

Why is this important? Because I like how she is scum hunting. But if she is experienced then could be this be a scum tactic to play as close to town as possible? Well there's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case for the moment so I am going to put her on my town pile for now.

Wait did you think newbie was a newbie because their name was newbie?

Generally you look at experience based on how many posts they have etc. not their username. I'm trying to understand why this post was made- your point seems to be
that you are townreading Newbie only if she is a new player, if not it is a scumread? Well guess what I don't think Newbie is actually new to this game. This feels like you think Newbie might get wagoned here, so it lets you say "Oh Newbie isn't a new player, I think her early game was scummy" and sneak on the wagon without having to actually worry about going after Newbie.

Also I'm not sure that reason is a good reason to scumread someone. Basically you are scumreading a player for seeming town. I would say that opens a can of WIFOM, but honestly that strategy just doesn't work. A good player might be able to look towny as scum, but they would also probably be able to look towny as town.

@JF3, that was just me trying to sort you and Newbie and failing, if you don't see any real point in answering the questions you don't have to.

[Something Pip]

^ This was pip btw.

[Something Pip]

I'm getting the sense that Newbie might not actually in fact be ... a newbie.

Which then suggests someone actually quite experienced at this game because they appreciate the value of being under estimated.

Why is this important? Because I like how she is scum hunting. But if she is experienced then could be this be a scum tactic to play as close to town as possible? Well there's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case for the moment so I am going to put her on my town pile for now.

Wait did you think newbie was a newbie because their name was newbie?

Generally you look at experience based on how many posts they have etc. not their username. I'm trying to understand why this post was made- your point seems to be
that you are townreading Newbie only if she is a new player, if not it is a scumread? Well guess what I don't think Newbie is actually new to this game. This feels like you think Newbie might get wagoned here, so it lets you say "Oh Newbie isn't a new player, I think her early game was scummy" and sneak on the wagon without having to actually worry about going after Newbie.

Also I'm not sure that reason is a good reason to scumread someone. Basically you are scumreading a player for seeming town. I would say that opens a can of WIFOM, but honestly that strategy just doesn't work. A good player might be able to look towny as scum, but they would also probably be able to look towny as town.

@JF3, that was just me trying to sort you and Newbie and failing, if you don't see any real point in answering the questions you don't have to.

Now this is a very interesting response. It's deliberately misrepresenting what I said. I'll accept that you might not quite get dry humour, especially over the medium of electronic text, but I did conclude by saying

"Well there's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case for the moment so I am going to put her on my town pile for now."

That was my very last sentence so you don't have a plausible excuse for thinking that I was reading newbie as scum. Of course I know that "newbie" is a name and not a status bestowed upon a player by the almighty mods of Mafia. But my point remains that the player

chose

to call themselves "newbie". She chose it for a reason.

What your posts suggests to me is that you are deliberately looking for means to cast suspicion on a player rather than looking for slips. The former is a sign of someone wanting to cause a mislynch, the latter is a sign of someone trying to discover who is scum.

VOTE: Something Pip

You do know that people's name don't affect their alignment, using someone's name as a point at any spot outside of RVS is scummy. I'm not sure where you are getting that I want to cause a mislynch. First off I'm not voting you, and right now I'm happy with my other head's vote on conc. The way I play the game d1 is to get connections for later days - like now I have you and Lowell's chainsaw of you. Also for that last sentence I had thought it had meant "since there is no evidence of newbie being an experienced player, she is on my town pile now", which I took as a scumread on newbie given that she is clearly experienced.

In general though, usernames are basically off-limits for alignment discernment, and I would like to see your opinion on everything else that has happened this game.
-pip

[Something Pip]

I'm getting the sense that Newbie might not actually in fact be ... a newbie.

Which then suggests someone actually quite experienced at this game because they appreciate the value of being under estimated.

This is pigeon poop.

Why is this important? Because I like how she is scum hunting. But if she is experienced then could be this be a scum tactic to play as close to town as possible? Well there's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case for the moment so I am going to put her on my town pile for now.

What about the way she is scumhunting do you like?

UNVOTE: newbie
VOTE: something pip

80 is the longest post to say nothing. Also ironically, it does what it purports to *facepalm*. Yes, 75 is pretty dumb, but Mathilda is the easy target here, and your obsession is overwrought. I get the vibe of scum happy to be able to jump in on a dumb comment and make hay with it. Way too much hay.

Oh I'm sorry if we haven't posted as much content as you. I'll agree with pip and call this a chainsaw.

I'm getting the sense that Newbie might not actually in fact be ... a newbie.

Which then suggests someone actually quite experienced at this game because they appreciate the value of being under estimated.

Why is this important? Because I like how she is scum hunting. But if she is experienced then could be this be a scum tactic to play as close to town as possible? Well there's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case for the moment so I am going to put her on my town pile for now.

This is town.

Why?
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Vote Count 1.1
Concvex: RadiantalyFarrar3, Something Pip, Sharky5x, Burning_Earth
Scorpious: Mathilda, Something Pip
RadiantalyFarrar3: Concvex, Newbie
Lowell: Scorpious
Something Pip: Lowell
Not voting: Frozen Angel, TheDominator37, TheyCallMeDirk

@Mod: yay I get to be a doublevoter now?

[Something Pip]

UNVOTE: newbie
VOTE: something pip

80 is the longest post to say nothing. Also ironically, it does what it purports to *facepalm*. Yes, 75 is pretty dumb, but Mathilda is the easy target here, and your obsession is overwrought. I get the vibe of scum happy to be able to jump in on a dumb comment and make hay with it. Way too much hay.

I don't think Sharky is scum because Lowell already claimed it. His only contribution to the thread is a chainsaw on basically what amounted to a FoS. I don't understand the vote on me being based on Mathilda being a easy mislynch bait when I'm not voting Mathilda.

[Something Pip]

I have an independent town lean on Sharky before his "Why aren't you guys scumreading me" post. It went down to null for this head, but I'm not happy that Lowell got away with that awful post much more than I care about whatever RC thinks a scumslip is.

[Something Pip]

[Something Pip]

Wee that was shit. Do you have an actual reason for voting me or are you just lazy scum?
-pip

[Something Pip]

What are you trying to accomplish with this post, exactly? I got townvibes from the post as well, not like I was gonna explain it beyond "naive"

Let the BE/Sharky scumteam begin.

I disagree with the first statement. To me it seems more "contrived" or at the very least "irrelevant".
But the second statement... that would be either a monster slip or a daring gambit for scum to make. To me it comes across as not caring how you're perceived, which is a towntell.

Wee that was shit. Do you have an actual reason for voting me or are you just lazy scum?
-pip

Why? Because I cought you?

Nah, I'm thinking more the other way around; I think we caught you. So unless that was a (terrible) reaction test, why don't you provide some reasoning.

So in other words, I should play better? Got you.

Not only you I'm generally speaking.

whats your read on mathilda and Burning Earth?

Mathilda's post #75 was weird. I don't see what the point of it was, tbh. The fact that she literally didn't comment on anything else and then jumped on the pip wagon is also disturbing.

BE looks like scum trying to keep a low profile. I especially didn't like the pre-flip association he tried with me and conc.

As a matter of fact,

VOTE: BE

Youve been active, but you haven't commented about this until asked. Even after I made that post. Scum.

I like this.

-the smart head
p.s. all the unsigned ones are pip

[Something Pip]

I think Sharky is town because the last sentence of 116 ("Let the BE/Sharky scumteam begin") is not self-conscious enough to be scum. Nothing to do with Lowell.
Lowell's chainsaw that pip referred to is indeed 85, and I'm not voting him because I have stronger reads, I want concvex to say something, and the chainsaw could be unconscious (Lowell sees Mathilda as town and an easy target and automatically scumreads us for attacking her). I'm leaning toward voting Newbie, however.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

In post 151, Not_Mafia wrote:
VOTE: Burning Earth


Go on

I don't like the whole "Taly stop posting so much" thing when activity is this low. We need folk to get in here.

If I cared to hijack Bells' vote I'd throw it on Newbie, but Bells is smarter than me so I'll leave it for no

Knowing Not that is going to be his only post until prod time.

[Something Pip]

^if concvex ever gets bussed this is 100% where it happens.
BE vs. RF3 seems TvT.
Dominator is obvscum.
Not_Mafia will probably need to be PL'd at some point.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

We are lynching here, not quick lynching.

Also ftr our heads disagree about the newbie read, not the Dom read, he is super scum.

[Something Pip]

This is why I'm not confident in my read in you.

You throw on a townread on something.
After you say something else is scum. (Lowell?)
Then you call out that Dom is 'obvscum', but do shit about it.
You then say that NM should just be policy lynched -wtf? But your votes still on conc, yet you just say that someone is bussing conc?

Seriously. Wtf are your reads. This is either hydra dissonance in picking up a lot of adversity with people, or I really don't like how it seems like you're lining up shit with your scumreads.

The only read we disagree on is Newbie. Our top two scumreads right now are conc for starting a point, then letting Newbie take all of the heat for him and dom for every post he has made this game. My experience with NM is that he will never do anything the entire game. I don't think there is any way of dealing with that besides a policy lynch at some point.

[Something Pip]

I mean I guess Concev could be scum

Yuck.

To everyone angry about dissonance and illogical play, our scumreads are concvex, Dom and Lowell. We're conflicted on Newbie. We are currently leading a wagon on one of our scumreads so I don't know what you expect us to be doing.

Not_Mafia is a disgrace to scummers everywhere. Just look at any of his games.

I want to hear from concvex (well, everyone who's lurking but mostly him) what his reads are on everyone. This game needs to get going.

Oh yeah and pip is the one who always forgets to sign his posts. I never forget.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

What's remotely yuck about saying a slot with 6 posts could be scum based on what they've posted but doesn't have nearly enough content for me to want to lynch them?

Don't get me wrong, I still think you're town. But I just didn't like how you double-qualified a read on a slot that, as you pointed out, you have no reason to believe is town.
Your vote on Dom is good. But I think a vote on concvex would be better because this wagon is actually going somewhere.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

I love it when the people everyone is scumreading just lurk out of the game, really keeps the game moving

-pip

[Something Pip]

yes

[Something Pip]

Taly why must you always wallpost.
I am the one scumreading Newbie, and it's because I see scum trying to fit in in every post she makes. She has a lot of equivocation, using many words to say little, defensiveness, and a general lack of scumhunting, in favor of trying to keep everybody happy.
Not sure why pip has her as town.

I only take issue with the conc quickvotes if he turns out to be scum. Because the conc wagon was gearing up and it's a good time to bus.
Like shadow's entrance. Not so much droog's.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Taly why must you always wallpost.
I am the one scumreading Newbie, and it's because I see scum trying to fit in in every post she makes. She has a lot of equivocation, using many words to say little, defensiveness, and a general lack of scumhunting, in favor of trying to keep everybody happy.
Not sure why pip has her as town.

I only take issue with the conc quickvotes if he turns out to be scum. Because the conc wagon was gearing up and it's a good time to bus.
Like shadow's entrance. Not so much droog's.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

oops

[Something Pip]

I can't see it happening on the first page of the first day phase, a time when scum tend to be extra cautious.

-wifon masquerading as real discussion
-equivocating on conc

STOP THE WIFOMMMMMMMMM

I mean, we all have to wifom at some point, since we all have some type of scum/town tells, but whatever. I will say that I don't see anything scummy about conc at the moment, but I'd definitely like to hear more from him. Is that better?

-saying something to say nothing
-trying to make me happy

I agree. I want to get things moving.

-see above

I agree that Mathilda's "Newbie's not a Newbie!" thing was weird. But in the same post, she said she's reading me as town because of it, so that would be odd if she wanted to take advantage.

-agreeing with both sides
-appearing to actually be saying something but just not

K.

-nice content

I'm getting the sense that Newbie might not actually in fact be ... a newbie.

Which then suggests someone actually quite experienced at this game because they appreciate the value of being under estimated.

Why is this important? Because I like how she is scum hunting. But if she is experienced then could be this be a scum tactic to play as close to town as possible? Well there's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case for the moment so I am going to put her on my town pile for now.

Lol what? I've been a member here since August '13. Am I the only one you have an opinion on? What about Conc - the person with the leading wagon, RF3 - another with a wagon, Pip, BE, etc?

-saying something to say nothing
-an actual scumhunter would try to figure out why Mathilda said this instead of going "lol what"

So in other words, I should play better? Got you.

I already said I'm not throwing conc down as 100% town. Actually, I probably sound like a broken record by now, but I want to hear more from him. All he's done so far is defend himself from RF3 and keep his vote.

This game has generally been pretty underwhelming in terms activity so far. A lot of people have taken a back seat. I especially don't like how BE throws out a vague observation every now and then before going back into the shadows.

-saying a lot to say a little
-I disagree with you on BE, reasons are questionable

The funny thing is, I didn't even realize that was his first post. I thought this was.

^^^ this guy is going to be fun.

The AtE is strong in you.

That's what I figured you were referring to. Still, how is he a strong town read based on any of it?

-saying something to say nothing

Let me quote every single bad thing anyone has said about me and explain why it's wrong.

Your walls are all way too defensive. Overall you seem so preoccupied with your townie image that you've forgotten to actually act like a townie would.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

-nice content

This is a dumb point, smart head

Yeah I know I just saw that in her ISO and was like, lol

Taly I'm sorry it's nothing against you as a player it's just I usually phonepost and your posts are a pain to quote.

How is town supposed to act? Scumhunting, maybe? The accusation is very sound. Townies do towny things like scumhunting. They don't spend time keeping up their image. Newbie has focused on keeping up her image and has forgotten to do towny things like scumhunting.

I agree with the smart head's case on Newbie (most of it some of the points are reaching too far)

Reasonable assessment. I tend to unintentionally twist facts to support my arguments sometimes.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

VOTE: Lowell This really should happen, I was holding my vote on convex cause I hate when people lurk out of pressure, but I'm really liking Droog's entrance so far. Taly should keep wallposting as long as the game necessitates it, but other people's lazyiness shouldn't be a reason not to wallpost, this game is going really slow anyways.

[Something Pip]

Um, so Dom doesn't seem to attempt to do anything to help town, which is by definition any town. I honestly don't understand how Droog likes Dom's entrance given that it was just meaningless words under random quotes. That is why Dom is a scumread. That being said, what Lowell did was try to above the radar and explain his ideas, the problem was that they involved misrepping things and other attempts to manipulate town. So I think there is a much greater chance of Lowell being scum than Dom even though Dom has been more antitown than Lowell.

[Something Pip]

Happy birthday, Marcrell!
I support my other head's vote. Droog's entry was towny enough that he's no longer my top scumread. Everything pip said about Dom and Lowell I agree with, although droog does have a point in that Dom isn't afraid to make enemies.
The only head who actually remembers to sign his posts,
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Why dominator at all?

Why not? Has he done anything that might make you think he's town?

Um, so Dom doesn't seem to attempt to do anything to help town, which is by definition any town. I honestly don't understand how Droog likes Dom's entrance given that it was just meaningless words under random quotes. That is why Dom is a scumread. That being said, what Lowell did was try to above the radar and explain his ideas, the problem was that they involved misrepping things and other attempts to manipulate town. So I think there is a much greater chance of Lowell being scum than Dom even though Dom has been more antitown than Lowell.

I appreciate that answer. However, it leads me to two follow up questions.
1) You never answered what you liked about droog's entrance.
2) As your point out here, droog liked Dom's entrance with no discernible reason why. Does that change your read on droog at all?

1. He had good points generally, and I agreed with all of his reads and why he was doing them. The only thing I disagree on is the townread on Dom, but I'll agree with JF3 that we haven't seen enough from Dom to make a hard read either way.
2. Not in and of itself, but Droog does need to explain that read a lot more.

[Something Pip]

oh yeah this is the game where I've been pushing some guy for lurking and basically doing nothing. that explains the votes.

I'm sure there's some obvious scum here. Let me get back to you on Monday, as I said.

dude unless you are planning to produce the best case ever that is 1 day from deadline. If you don't want to eat a lynch today you better do stuff right now.

[Something Pip]

Also @Karnage, Mathilda and Lowell 90% are super duper not mafia together, so I might go over the game again to check those reads. That was a strong entrance by Karnage though.

[Something Pip]

Also @Karnage, Mathilda and Lowell 90% are super duper not mafia together, so I might go over the game again to check those reads. That was a strong entrance by Karnage though.

I disagree. I don't see anything that precludes them from being scumbuddies.

85 “mathilda is an easy target”
203 “mathilda’s play is weirdly methodical”
249 “this makes him (lowell) more town in my eyes”

what am I missing?

I missed post 203 when I made that post, that made me reconsider a fair bit. Normally scum don't chainsaw their partner after the slightest inclination of a push. So 85 struck me as trying to buddy a potential mislynch to either get towncred or have an ally. However 203 is awkward distancing that doesn't fit with my WK theory, so while if Lowell flips scum Mathilda would not be my first choice of lynch, I think you made good points and he definitely isn't as off the table as I thought he was. Either way though Lowell needs to be lynched today.

[Something Pip]

Droog's been ok so far. Plus my three biggest scumreads are on his wagon. I don't see what you like about Mathilda however.
@Taly what are the things Newbie has done that make you think she is town? Though I agree with you that there's way too much preflip associative stuff going on.
To the best of my knowledge, our heads are in agreement that Lowell is the best lynch. I'd like to see a bigger wagon on him.
I'm confident that RF3 and BE are town, fairly confident that Karnage is as well.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

oh yeah this is the game where I've been pushing some guy for lurking and basically doing nothing. that explains the votes.

I'm sure there's some obvious scum here. Let me get back to you on Monday, as I said.

dude unless you are planning to produce the best case ever that is 1 day from deadline. If you don't want to eat a lynch today you better do stuff right now.

Not sure what you mean by "eat a lynch." Unless it's me leading in votes, I'm probably fine with it. I'll pretty much kill anyone.

It means getting lynched

[Something Pip]

Newbie, if you're ok voting Lowell, then do it. He is scum who needs to die. And all the votes on droog are looking more and more out of place; you all should switch to Lowell too.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Because Dom obviously doesn't care about the game and will probably be replaced.
Because, as droog pointed out, Dom wasn't afraid to make enemies.
Because Dom hasn't said enough to read properly.
Because Dom is an easy no-risk target.
Because Dom's wagon isn't going anywhere.
Because Lowell is at L-3 and wagons are good.
Because Lowell is scum.
Because Lowell's play has been crap.
Because Lowell needs to die.
Because you need to prove to me that you have an ounce of pro-town motivation in you.
Because you've done very little actual scumhunting all game.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Oh my god
I know preflip associatives are bad
But the Newbie-Lowell scumteam is real
LYNCH THEM. LYNCH THEM BOTH.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

UNVOTE: newbie
VOTE: something pip

80 is the longest post to say nothing. Also ironically, it does what it purports to *facepalm*. Yes, 75 is pretty dumb, but Mathilda is the easy target here, and your obsession is overwrought. I get the vibe of scum happy to be able to jump in on a dumb comment and make hay with it. Way too much hay.

Burning and RF are town. Mathilda's play is weirdly methodical. Someone kill conc.

He's goes from throwing a vote on pip for seeing Mathilda as an easier target to saying Mathilda's posts are weirdly methodical. Doesn't show any intention of putting pressure on Mathilda, though. Playing his cards very close to his chest.

UNVOTE: whoever
VOTE: conc

To add pressure. This looks like the kind of game where we just wagon everyone to get them to wake up. Wake me when it's my turn.

*yawns*

I agree that this vote does look horribly apathetic.

Conclusion:

I'd be willing to vote Lowell

along with Dom and droog.

@droog Dom has made less of an effort to respond every time he's here, but he doesn't seem be getting as much attention as Lowell.

loweell wasnt getting any attention until me
the only vote was a rand from scorp

whcih means you believe scum is on the loweell wagon

ok
sell me on that
who is scummy on the loweell wagon

The underlined is where I sit on scum.

Vote Count 1.6
Droog: Sharky5x, Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda
Lowell: Scorpious, RadiantalyFarrar3, Something Pip,

Droog

Something Pip:

TheDominator37

Newbie

:Burning_Earth

Burning_Earth: Not_Mafia
TheDominator37: shaddowez
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
(expired on 2016-01-14 15:25:34)

Funny that you should be willing to vote Lowell, given he's apparently a townread.
344 is the LITERAL DEFINITION of distancing.
Their only other interaction ever is Lowell's RVS "vote him he's a newb" and Newbie's "dude I'm a female" which now that I think about it seems like a perfect staged interaction.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Newbie, either hard defend lowell and build a case for him or stop trying to push a counterwagon.
-pip

[Something Pip]

^scumslip
Only scum can have 100% townreads.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

aaaaaand cue the flailing.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Mathilda can you make a case for why Newbie is town? 'Cause I'm not seeing it. And you should go ahead and vote Lowell because that's the lynch that's happening today.
Can also the people scumreading droog explain that too?
Right now, these are my feelings:
Town: BE, RF3, Karnage, droog
Null: NM, shaddow, Scorpious
Null leaning scum: Dom
Scum: Newbie, Lowell, Mathilda
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Mathilda can you make a case for why Newbie is town? 'Cause I'm not seeing it. And you should go ahead and vote Lowell because that's the lynch that's happening today.
Can also the people scumreading droog explain that too?
Right now, these are my feelings:
Town: BE, RF3, Karnage, droog, shaddow
Null: NM, Scorpious
Null leaning scum: Dom
Scum: Newbie, Lowell, Mathilda
-the smart head

FTFY

Ugh. Assuming that I'll townread you for agreeing with me? That's called buddying. Sorry but you are staying at null for me.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Ugh. Assuming that I'll townread you for agreeing with me? That's called buddying. Sorry but you are staying at null for me.
-the smart head

Nope, not assuming anything, and don't really care if you think I'm trying to buddy you or not. It's interesting that you call me out and not droog for doing basically the same thing, though.

All Droog said is that all of our reads are awesome. But since we are objectively awesome it doesn't count as buddying FYI. What you did was kinda sus as it looks like distancing from Lowell though

-pip

[Something Pip]

The fuck you guys doing? I veto this.

VOTE: Droog

I'll follow you onto Dom if you'd prefer that, Mathilda.

Why are you supporting a vanity wagon 2 days before deadline? Like the only case is that sharky lurked out in a game where half the town has lurked out is weird at best.

[Something Pip]

Radiant, please don't screw this up. We're nearing deadline, and Lowell is by far the best lynch.

@droog- I voted you originally because the slot was absent, then I got bloodthirsty, it was the only active wagon, nothing else was happening, so I thought "why not? he could be scum."

which is more or less what I still think. I don't have a strong read on you one way or the other, but I'm game for lynching most people on D1.

Seriously. How can this be town?

I will never settle for any other lynch. Tomorrow we can judge droog based on his interactions with Lowell (whose alignment we will know). Lynching droog here is a bad move. Vote Lowell 2016.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

I don't understand why this day hasn't ended yet. Not one person has produced any convincing reason to believe that Lowell is town. And for those who wonder who is scum on Lowell's wagon, my belief is that there aren't any (scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda) but if there are then it's Scorpious or shaddow.

We can either sit here arguing our way to a no lynch, or we can lynch Lowell and, at the very worst, gain information from the flip. (At best of course we will lynch one scum, with another [Newbie] soon to follow.) If Lowell flips town then several people have some explaining to do, and likewise if he flips scum. The fact that the discussion has switched to "who on the wagon is scum?" means that our focus has shifted away from Lowell himself and toward how people have interacted with him. This discussion will only yield anything once he flips.

So, to summarize:
1. Nobody has any compelling reason to believe he is town. (Nor any compelling reason to keep him alive, given that he has contributed basically nothing thus far.)
2. We don't have enough time to discuss and organize another lynch that is better than this one. (Even droog: for those who want to lynch droog, at least wait until Lowell flips.)
3. We're trying to draw information about the wagon, without knowing if the wagon is on scum. Worst case, he flips town and gives us things to talk about tomorrow.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

@MrTrow:
I see you agree with me basically across the board. And I'm pretty in line with a Newbie lynch tomorrow (certainly if Lowell flips scum, very possibly if he flips town too). But it seems like you don't look favorably on Lowell, and that's the only wagon that might realistically happen today. So at least if nobody else intends to I think you should consider hammering (unless I miscounted, Lowell is at L-1).
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

hahahahahahaha
Mathilda that is LITERALLY the scummiest thing I have ever read. That's defending your partner, chainsawing his attackers, AND pushing no-lynch. Hey I've done that before...as scum.A5)3

Okay. Lowell is scummy due

in part

to the fact that he is antitown. He is also using random and unjustified attacks and read swings, promoting apathy, using AtE, being willing to lynch anybody who isn't him, and putting words in people's mouths.
With that out of the way, let me just take a moment to laugh at the person pushing no-lynch (no other lynch can realistically happen today) and calling

us

antitown.

Let's see... "Generates little information" is a lie. If Lowell flips scum we have basically caught the scumteam.
"Worried about a mislynch"-who said I wasn't? But going around saying "oh but what if he's town" up until the end is whiteknighting. You don't win by having doubts.
As for your point about bussing- hey look, 1 scum is on (Newbie) and 1 is off (you).

Overall, your premises are just wrong, your attacks baseless, your methods scummy, and your conclusion misleading. GG Newbie-Lowell-Mathilda scumteam found.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

I don't understand why this day hasn't ended yet. Not one person has produced any convincing reason to believe that Lowell is town.

Obviously the people pushing for a Lowell lynch have not made a convincing enough argument that he is scum.

Or it could be the fact that we have had 3-4 lurking slots and still brought a wagon to l-1 twice

People are all guilty until proved innocent in a Mafia game but we only have one lynch which means that we go for the best case on one person to be lynched. We can't rely on PoE on Day 1.

No one has made a better case, and the case on lowell isn't PoE

And for those who wonder who is scum on Lowell's wagon, my belief is that there aren't any (scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda) but if there are then it's Scorpious or shaddow.

And this makes me suspicious of you as well. Maybe I was right with my initial impression of you.

We can either sit here arguing our way to a no lynch, or we can lynch Lowell and, at the very worst, gain information from the flip.

We're gaining information now by seeing who is pushing for a Lowell lynch with very little information to go on and who don't bother making a good case for doing so, but telling people that it should be a default action to lynch him.

, we can only use that information if we know the alignment of Lowell. As scum you might already know their alignment, but since we don't we need to flip them.

(At best of course we will lynch one scum, with another [Newbie] soon to follow.) If Lowell flips town then several people have some explaining to do, and likewise if he flips scum.

The same could be said for lynching anyone in this game. You and me included. Tell us why Lowell is the

best

candidate for lynching today.

Because he has been the scummiest by far, has had very odd interactions with multiple people that seem to indicate Lowell scum, and people have the strongest opinions about Lowell so we get the most information by flipping him. If someone like scorp got lynched and flipped scum we would basically just be in a 9 v 2 world tomorrow.

The fact that the discussion has switched to "who on the wagon is scum?" means that our focus has shifted away from Lowell himself and toward how people have interacted with him. This discussion will only yield anything once he flips.

This is scum motivation here, not town. Town are worried about mislynching but want to generate information. Scum just want a mislynch.

Alrighty then, explain to me how you can do wagon analysis on someone you don't know the alignment of? Take the early wagon on conc, I could not analyze that wagon unless conc flipped since I don't know his alignment, this reads somewhat scumslipping and I have a feeling that you will be the wagon tomorrow

I'm reading you as scum now.

ooh scary

So to answer Droog's question, that's both Droog and sPip as scum on the Lowell lynch wagon, which then means that it's more likely that Lowell is town and just an inactive player. I shall now be voting for him. Find someone else to finish your lynch wagon.

"I think Lowell is town, so the people on his wagon are scummy, so he is town", yeah that makes sense. Not circular at all whatsoever

The fact that a lot of people are talking about who is or isn't town on my wagon makes me think a lot of people think I'm not actually scum.

"The people defending me are asking about who might be scum on my wagon, so therefore no one thinks I'm scum".

Keep up. It's me talking about scum on your wagon with Droog and sPip saying scum are the ones not voting. It's comments like these from you which are suspicious, but for me it's Droog and sPip defence of their push to lynch you that's even more suspicious.

This is why I am reading you as anti town and not scum.

Again, "if I assume that you are town, then spip and droog are pushing a mislynch and therefore scum, and then lowell is probably town" great reasoning there

(scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda)

Another thing. Isn't it more likely that scum would be throwing their scum buddies under a bus the moment a definite lynch wagon developed on one of them? If I was a scum buddy with Lowell I would most certainly be voting for him right now. I wouldn't be sticking my neck out arguing with those wanting to lynch him. That's because I would know that he was scum and likely to be lynched and that I would be next in line.

Yes there is WIFOM and all that, but it's still best to stay away from suspicion if you can as scum. This is why your scum read is flawed at best.

So by your logic in the world where droog was lynched today and flipped scum, we would be confTown since we are too closely related to be scum? Also Lowell being scum is an independent read, so your and newbie's alignment doesn't affect me wanting to lynch lowell here so this defense is meaningless

Obviously the people pushing for a Lowell lynch have not made a convincing enough argument that he is scum.

I need you to look at post 215 and tell me how it isn't the scummiest post in the game.

Actually hold up I have more problems with Hildy's posts so I'm gonna dedicate a post to it

I would argue that it's not so much scummy as someone who isn't engaged in the game or cares what happens in it. The key sentence here is "This game is going nowhere." Even noob scum, assuming that they are interested in winning, would be stating that Concv is scum and that we should vote for him rather than come out with such an apathetic response.

For reference the post in question:

So the post was too scummy to be scum?

I mean I guess Concev could be scum, but there's no where near enough content from the slot.

Very true. Vote him anyway. This game is going nowhere.

And for those who wonder who is scum on Lowell's wagon, my belief is that there aren't any (scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda) but if there are then it's Scorpious or shaddow.

And this makes me suspicious of you as well. Maybe I was right with my initial impression of you.

Why? Do you suspect everyone who disagrees with/suspects you?

Not at all.

As I stated, I am suspicious of people unwilling to entertain the idea that there are scum on the Lowell lynch wagon.

How do you even do wagon analysis on an unflipped player, the whole initial question was ridiculously dumb and is really not a solid point in any scum read or defense right now. The honest answer is we have no idea because Lowell could flip town and then we have to reevaluate the whole game.

We can either sit here arguing our way to a no lynch, or we can lynch Lowell and, at the very worst, gain information from the flip.

We're gaining information now by seeing who is pushing for a Lowell lynch with very little information to go on and who don't bother making a good case for doing so, but telling people that it should be a default action to lynch him.

Are you confident enough in Lowell-town to act on that information? If so, why? If not, what the fuck are you talking about?

I am not confident that Lowell is town, but I am getting scummier vibes from sPip and Droog. They could be bussing their scum buddy as far as I know.

• Anti-town is not the same as scum play
  but even more so from town play. He has done nothing to advance the town in any way.
  
  
• Lowell is anti-town because of his apathy. Droog and sPip are actively pushing for anti-town action.
  Only true if you somehow knew that Lowell was town.
  
  
• How do you tell the difference between an apathetic town player and scum?
  It is really hard, which is why apathetic players make good d1 lynches anyway. However in Lowell's case you can since the posts that are supposed to relate to the game are scummy
  
  
• Lynching an apathetic anti-town player does not help town because it generates very little information.
  Really not true, because everyone has commented on the Lowell wagon it gives us the most information
  
  
• Town are generally more worried about mislynching because they lack information, especially on day 1. Droog and sPip don't seem worried about not having the necessary information to avoid a mislynch yet they don't ever state a clear cut case against Lowell.
  We aren't worried about a mislynch since Lowell is the best lynch and there is no way that we could know 100% d1 that we weren't going to mislynch. What is your point here, you shouldn't lynch apathetic player that you think are super scummy unless you know 100% of the time they will flip scum, wtf.
  
  
• Lowell may well be scum, or he may be an easy lynch because of his apathy and anti-town play, but regardless I don't want to do what scum wants me to do.

Yes because us and droog are so confScum if you assume that Lowell is town and that only scum ever push mislynches.

[Something Pip]

All amber text is pip btw.

hahahahahahaha
Mathilda that is LITERALLY the scummiest thing I have ever read.

LITERALLY? As in being literal? You mean my post was the scummiest post that you have ever read in your entire history of playing Mafia?

And the overly exaggerated laugh 'hahahahahaha'?

It's obvious that you are trying to cajole me. Have you considered using a or ? Because that always works in convincing people.

That's defending your partner, chainsawing his attackers, AND pushing no-lynch. Hey I've done that before...as scum.A5)3

Maybe you just suck as scum.

That game was a perfect scum victory

Okay. Lowell is scummy due

in part

to the fact that he is antitown. He is also using random and unjustified attacks and read swings, promoting apathy, using AtE, being willing to lynch anybody who isn't him, and putting words in people's mouths.

If that is all you were pushing then I would have been far less suspicious. Why all the cajoling and being absolutely sure about who scum is and that none of them are on the Lowell lynch wagon?

Reaction testing.

With that out of the way, let me just take a moment to laugh at the person pushing no-lynch (no other lynch can realistically happen today) and calling

us

antitown.

Yes let's all laugh at someone pushing for a no-lynch. Who is that again? I don't know. No one ever has. Where did I ever push for a no-lynch? Like Droog you're misrepresenting what I have said. This is scummy behaviour.

Yes, because you can organize a full counterwagon who half the town townread in 1 day.

Let's see... "Generates little information" is a lie. If Lowell flips scum we have basically caught the scumteam.

And as pointed out to you before, you can say the same thing about everyone.

Let's lynch you instead. If you flip scum then we have basically caught the scum team.

That doesn't work because you case on us is just a chainsaw. If you had an actual case and it wasn't right before the deadline, then this conversation would be very different.

"Worried about a mislynch"-who said I wasn't?

Because you are sure that Lowell is scum and are laughing at anyone who questions your push.

We actually have had a few discussions in our hydra PT about what happens if Lowell flips town. We decided that it is unlikely enough that we would get there when we get there.

But going around saying "oh but what if he's town" up until the end is whiteknighting.

Only if the other person is scum and an extremely poor player. I am neither.

Trust me my scum game isn't just pushing mislynch fodder, so this works both ways. Also being a good player doesn't mean you don't defend your partner. There are numerous really good scum players that nearly never bus.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that town don't also have doubts about whether the person about to be lynched is also town? Because if so I can point you to times when this has happened.

But again, in your fantasy world, scum play simplistically it seems. They never lynch a scum buddy and always come to each other's defence. You seem a much better player than to believe that tripe which is why I have you down as scum.

You don't win by having doubts.

Scum certainly don't.

Yeah they totally can. They just waffle reads and then push counterwagons in the deadline, get no lynches and then use NKs to win.

[Something Pip]

If I could call people scum because I could criticize their logic half this game might as well have selfvoted by now.

But the underlying reason for the bad logic is her pushing a counter wagon in deadline on my scum read

[Something Pip]

IF Lowell flips scum you might have a case.

I'd still be inclined to think Mathilda town, but you might have a case.

He hasn't. I don't think he's going to.

You and Mathilda are on droog's wagon. There are 6 people on Lowell's wagon who you probably aren't going to convince, meaning you need to convince every other player in the game in 27 hours to vote for Droog if you don't want a no lynch, 2 of which are being prodded. Saying that right now Mathilda is aiming for a droog lynch is inaccurate, Mathilda right now is aiming for a no-lynch by pushing a droog wagon. Droog absolutely will not be lynched today.

Now unless you think town gains more information by not lynching today, I don't see how what you two are doing is not anti town.

[Something Pip]

IF Lowell flips scum you might have a case.

I'd still be inclined to think Mathilda town, but you might have a case.

He hasn't. I don't think he's going to.

I think I mentioned that all of my reads right now are somewhat predicated on Lowell flipping scum. This is the main reason I haven't pushed a mathilda lynch once today. Again today I honestly don't care about Mathilda's alignment, if Lowell does flip scum, then that or Newbie is where we will probably start tomorrow, but I always reread over the night so that might change. If Lowell flips town I'll use the night to try to find out what happened.

[Something Pip]

@JF3, I'll be happy as long as Lowell flips scum, I don't think I have that good d1 reads to peg a three person scum team day 1.
-pip

[Something Pip]

Looks fine to me
Loweell could've claimed long ago

"I claim PGO, I cc, I cc you, OMG GUYS I FOUND ALL OF SCUM I AM THE ACTUAL PGO, wait a towny must be fakeclaiming cause I am PGO, guys I think the mod is messing with us since I am also PGO, you guys are probably conf town now,*lurks, *lurks"

-pip

[Something Pip]

VOTE: Newbie
Needs to die, needs to die, needs to die today
(Sung to the tune of Jingle Bells)
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

RC, hi, I think my other head has some strong reads right now. I have a few PoE scumreads on people, I also like Karnage's scumread on Newbie and something Something has been trying to convince me of so I'll start there.
VOTE: Newbie

-I just got ninjaed by my other head, cool

[Something Pip]

Sigh... Lowell flipping was not what I expected, like wth? :/

VOTE: newbie

Spent the latter part of Day 1 talking about scum being on lowell's wagon and talking then votes lowell to put him at L-1 two days before the deadline before disappearing for the remainder of the day. I get be willing to lynch somebody thats not a scum read to avoid a no-lynch but not at that point in the day.

I don't understand this post?

In your posts; I don't exactly see you saying that scum was on Lowell's wagon? And you put him to L-3 not L-1?

And you'd be willing to vote anyone that's NOT a scumread to avoid no-lynch? Eugh...

What are your reasons for thinking Newbie is scum?

VOTE: Newbie
Needs to die, needs to die, needs to die today
(Sung to the tune of Jingle Bells)
-the smart head

You said this exact thing about Lowell and he flipped town.

RC, hi, I think my other head has some strong reads right now. I have a few PoE scumreads on people, I also like Karnage's scumread on Newbie and something Something has been trying to convince me of so I'll start there.
VOTE: Newbie

-I just got ninjaed by my other head, cool

you have a few PoE scumreads by 1 town flip? Yet your vote right now is on Newbie so far by you saying you like that he's scumread and your head convinced you of something that neither of you stated?

I'm not following these Newbie votes, and I really don't like this death-tunnel thing you like doing.

~Taly

So if I had any really strong reads right now I would be trying to slow my other head down, but I don't I'm fine with him (hey something keep pushing peeps) to keep doing the newbie stuff until I get a hard scumread on someone for something. The whole hydra PT Yesterday was "Newbie, Mathilda and Lowell are confScum, the game is solved" and of all those Lowell was my hardest scumread so I have to reevaluate.
-pip

[Something Pip]

If you guys really want me to do a PBPA I will (and I'll probably end up doing one later in the day), but for now nearly all of Newbie's ISO screams scum motivation to me.
I challenge one person to name one good reason why Newbie is town.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

I'm ok with Newbie or Mathilda, basically have a death tunnel on both.

pbpa?

Point By Point Analysis. Basically quoting a whole bunch of posts and explaining why they're scummy.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

So if I had any really strong reads right now I would be trying to slow my other head down, but I don't I'm fine with him (hey something keep pushing peeps) to keep doing the newbie stuff until I get a hard scumread on someone for something. The whole hydra PT Yesterday was "Newbie, Mathilda and Lowell are confScum, the game is solved" and of all those Lowell was my hardest scumread so I have to reevaluate.
-pip

mathilda please actually read our posts. I just said that my head doesn't have any strong reads

[Something Pip]

VOTE: Mathilda
Had enough of you making things up.
You said being right is a towntell. Guess which faction knows everyone's alignment.
You said us and RF3 is TvS. With some kind of argument about five heads?
You said not displaying doubt is scummy. I am 100% sure that my top scumread has, in my eyes, the greatest chance of being scum by definition. As long as that scumread does not change, it would be inconsistent not to tunnel. We displayed plenty of doubt and consideration during the part of the day when reads are formed.
You said we were not trying to lynch scum. That is false. We had very good reasons.
I, at least, do not change my reads without a reason. Lowell was our biggest scumread. I was given no reason to change it. There was nothing new to make me doubt that read.
Your case basically amounts to "Lowell was town so whoever defended him is town and whoever pushed him is scum." That's crap.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

A few things to Egg:
If you think I was trying to twist Newbie's arm into voting Lowell, it's because I was, since I thought they were scumbuddies.
Now that Lowell has flipped town, that means droog was actively pushing a mislynch his entire time in the game. If he seems to do a similar thing again that might be a red flag. For now I like him for town, though.
I'd feel more comfortable lynching Mathilda today, given that part of my scumread on Newbie was dependent on Lowell flipping scum (see above). Are you ok with that?
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

This whole thread feels ignored.
I'm totally fine with lynching Newbie or Mathilda. Consider me on whichever wagon takes off.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

And Droog is probably my top town read, actually.

See I just don't understand this. Even if Droog is town, he's the kind of player who acts extremely scummy all the time. These players can be really difficult to play with. If they are town, they distract the town vote and cause a mislynch until people eventually realise just to ignore the player. So when they're scum they get away with it.

Evidence?

I've played with a few people like this before and it was interesting to see how subtly their play changed when they were actually scum. Most people try playing like town when they're scum

No new information here

. Players like Droog play like scum

citation needed

all the time to hide when they're scum (whether intentional or not). The subtle tell that I have noticed is that these omni-scum players will actually try harder to push for a lynch and to misrepresent what was said. They often actively try to scum up other slots and cast shade. I haven't played with Droog before so I can't say for sure, but it does look like he is trying to do this.

For example him pushing this completely trivial point about me asking a question about a minor point early in the game, being given an answer and then not wanting to lynch regardless of the answer I got. Writing that out, it doesn't even make sense. I explained twice that I was satisfied with the answer and did not feel the need to pursue it #248

The point that you pushed RF3 for a second and then immediately jumped off without a good reason is still unexplained. This post is a weak way to get on the droog wagon, not the other way around

#331

and this post is genuinely awful, maybe not alignment indicative but saying that posts that say "this post is good because I can't find any problems with it" shouldn't be questioned is going to be questioned.

Then when asked by Newbie why he was persisting in pushing this he responds:

How does it seem that she didn't care about the answer?

because she never acknowledged the answer

So Droog's scum read on me stems from asking for clarification from RF3 about what he meant by not signing his posts and receiving a response way back in #41. And when pushed it comes down to me not posting something to RF3 along the lines of:

'Dear Sir(s), I deem that to be a satisfactory answer. I can hereby confirm that I shall henceforth drop this line of enquiry and look elsewhere in order to hunt those dastardly nefarious members of the scum faction, yours sincerely, Mathilda'

Funny, but when people ask you your response based on an answer and your answer is that you liked a post because you didn't dislike it, it is reasonable to continue to push in that direction. You have yet this game to really fall under serious pressure, but you view yourself as a easy mislynch target.

It is for this reason that I am suspicious that Droog may actually be scum in this game as opposed to playing

like

scum as he does in every game. He's actively trying to make other people look suspicious.

Also what scumhunting is, this is only bad when it is oppurtunistic, which I have yet to see a case for

Egg. Please explain why you think Droog is not only town, but probably your top town read.

All Droog's votes and unvotes are naked #229 #238 #293 #528

I'm glad that you found it, but if you notice Droog posts his explanations in the posts around the vote. His "scummy" style is that he has many posts as opposed to long walls, and his votes are always seperate posts. Saying that the votes are naked - say 293 isn't true when 292 and 291 are both droog posts that are a case against lowell. The problem with the case is that the main point seems to be more reverse bandwagon logic, and then all of these points are just confbias trying to justify the original phallicy. The problem is that the purpose of this post is really shady. You build what you seem to view as a fairly damning case on droog, but then you you never call him scum in the post. It seems to just be discrediting egg's read on droog, but you never call egg scum or droog scum or really put pressure on them. You seem to be much more interested in stopping any potential town bloc than finding and pressuring scum.

#592. This doesn't help town in the slightest and allows for him to hop around without generating any information or giving town a chance to question whether his reasons are correct.

He casts aspersions without backing up his statement #236 but when asked for justification gives an extremely weak excuse #255. Also
#226. This is similar to what I mentioned in my previous post regarding actively trying to make other slots look suspicious in contrast to anti-town play.


He lies about what people did in order to make them look scummy.

This is the first time
You've said you're satisfied with rc3''s response
Why would you ask a question
Not follow up on it

And then pretend the answer always satisfied you

I was the one who mentioned the fact that scum were likely to be on the Lowell lynch wagon, yet Droog doesn't let the idea drop. This looks like it is being overly defensive. He is acting incredulous at the idea of it for the most part #362 #364 #365 #379 #428
#429 #430 #434 #442 #449
#450

I shall concentrate on laying out my case against Something Pip next.

pedit: yeah that case sucks as well, probably will respond tuesday night.
-pip

[Something Pip]

Spoiler: :roll: things that didn't take 5 seconds

And Droog is probably my top town read, actually.

See I just don't understand this. Even if Droog is town, he's the kind of player who acts extremely scummy all the time. These players can be really difficult to play with. If they are town, they distract the town vote and cause a mislynch until people eventually realise just to ignore the player. So when they're scum they get away with it.

Evidence?

I've played with a few people like this before and it was interesting to see how subtly their play changed when they were actually scum. Most people try playing like town when they're scum

No new information here

. Players like Droog play like scum

citation needed

all the time to hide when they're scum (whether intentional or not). The subtle tell that I have noticed is that these omni-scum players will actually try harder to push for a lynch and to misrepresent what was said. They often actively try to scum up other slots and cast shade. I haven't played with Droog before so I can't say for sure, but it does look like he is trying to do this.

For example him pushing this completely trivial point about me asking a question about a minor point early in the game, being given an answer and then not wanting to lynch regardless of the answer I got. Writing that out, it doesn't even make sense. I explained twice that I was satisfied with the answer and did not feel the need to pursue it #248

The point that you pushed RF3 for a second and then immediately jumped off without a good reason is still unexplained. This post is a weak way to get on the droog wagon, not the other way around

#331

and this post is genuinely awful, maybe not alignment indicative but saying that posts that say "this post is good because I can't find any problems with it" shouldn't be questioned is going to be questioned.

Then when asked by Newbie why he was persisting in pushing this he responds:

How does it seem that she didn't care about the answer?

because she never acknowledged the answer

So Droog's scum read on me stems from asking for clarification from RF3 about what he meant by not signing his posts and receiving a response way back in #41. And when pushed it comes down to me not posting something to RF3 along the lines of:

'Dear Sir(s), I deem that to be a satisfactory answer. I can hereby confirm that I shall henceforth drop this line of enquiry and look elsewhere in order to hunt those dastardly nefarious members of the scum faction, yours sincerely, Mathilda'

Funny, but when people ask you your response based on an answer and your answer is that you liked a post because you didn't dislike it, it is reasonable to continue to push in that direction. You have yet this game to really fall under serious pressure, but you view yourself as a easy mislynch target.

It is for this reason that I am suspicious that Droog may actually be scum in this game as opposed to playing

like

scum as he does in every game. He's actively trying to make other people look suspicious.

Also what scumhunting is, this is only bad when it is oppurtunistic, which I have yet to see a case for

Egg. Please explain why you think Droog is not only town, but probably your top town read.

All Droog's votes and unvotes are naked #229 #238 #293 #528

I'm glad that you found it, but if you notice Droog posts his explanations in the posts around the vote. His "scummy" style is that he has many posts as opposed to long walls, and his votes are always seperate posts. Saying that the votes are naked - say 293 isn't true when 292 and 291 are both droog posts that are a case against lowell. The problem with the case is that the main point seems to be more reverse bandwagon logic, and then all of these points are just confbias trying to justify the original phallicy. The problem is that the purpose of this post is really shady. You build what you seem to view as a fairly damning case on droog, but then you you never call him scum in the post. It seems to just be discrediting egg's read on droog, but you never call egg scum or droog scum or really put pressure on them. You seem to be much more interested in stopping any potential town bloc than finding and pressuring scum.

#592. This doesn't help town in the slightest and allows for him to hop around without generating any information or giving town a chance to question whether his reasons are correct.

He casts aspersions without backing up his statement #236 but when asked for justification gives an extremely weak excuse #255. Also
#226. This is similar to what I mentioned in my previous post regarding actively trying to make other slots look suspicious in contrast to anti-town play.


He lies about what people did in order to make them look scummy.

This is the first time
You've said you're satisfied with rc3''s response
Why would you ask a question
Not follow up on it

And then pretend the answer always satisfied you

I was the one who mentioned the fact that scum were likely to be on the Lowell lynch wagon, yet Droog doesn't let the idea drop. This looks like it is being overly defensive. He is acting incredulous at the idea of it for the most part #362 #364 #365 #379 #428
#429 #430 #434 #442 #449
#450

I shall concentrate on laying out my case against Something Pip next.

pedit: yeah that case sucks as well, probably will respond tuesday night.
-pip

[Something Pip]

Spoiler: :roll: things that didn't take 5 seconds

And Droog is probably my top town read, actually.

See I just don't understand this. Even if Droog is town, he's the kind of player who acts extremely scummy all the time. These players can be really difficult to play with. If they are town, they distract the town vote and cause a mislynch until people eventually realise just to ignore the player. So when they're scum they get away with it.

Evidence?

I've played with a few people like this before and it was interesting to see how subtly their play changed when they were actually scum. Most people try playing like town when they're scum

No new information here

. Players like Droog play like scum

citation needed

all the time to hide when they're scum (whether intentional or not). The subtle tell that I have noticed is that these omni-scum players will actually try harder to push for a lynch and to misrepresent what was said. They often actively try to scum up other slots and cast shade. I haven't played with Droog before so I can't say for sure, but it does look like he is trying to do this.

For example him pushing this completely trivial point about me asking a question about a minor point early in the game, being given an answer and then not wanting to lynch regardless of the answer I got. Writing that out, it doesn't even make sense. I explained twice that I was satisfied with the answer and did not feel the need to pursue it #248

The point that you pushed RF3 for a second and then immediately jumped off without a good reason is still unexplained. This post is a weak way to get on the droog wagon, not the other way around

#331

and this post is genuinely awful, maybe not alignment indicative but saying that posts that say "this post is good because I can't find any problems with it" shouldn't be questioned is going to be questioned.

Then when asked by Newbie why he was persisting in pushing this he responds:

How does it seem that she didn't care about the answer?

because she never acknowledged the answer

So Droog's scum read on me stems from asking for clarification from RF3 about what he meant by not signing his posts and receiving a response way back in #41. And when pushed it comes down to me not posting something to RF3 along the lines of:

'Dear Sir(s), I deem that to be a satisfactory answer. I can hereby confirm that I shall henceforth drop this line of enquiry and look elsewhere in order to hunt those dastardly nefarious members of the scum faction, yours sincerely, Mathilda'

Funny, but when people ask you your response based on an answer and your answer is that you liked a post because you didn't dislike it, it is reasonable to continue to push in that direction. You have yet this game to really fall under serious pressure, but you view yourself as a easy mislynch target.

It is for this reason that I am suspicious that Droog may actually be scum in this game as opposed to playing

like

scum as he does in every game. He's actively trying to make other people look suspicious.

Also what scumhunting is, this is only bad when it is oppurtunistic, which I have yet to see a case for

Egg. Please explain why you think Droog is not only town, but probably your top town read.

All Droog's votes and unvotes are naked #229 #238 #293 #528

I'm glad that you found it, but if you notice Droog posts his explanations in the posts around the vote. His "scummy" style is that he has many posts as opposed to long walls, and his votes are always seperate posts. Saying that the votes are naked - say 293 isn't true when 292 and 291 are both droog posts that are a case against lowell. The problem with the case is that the main point seems to be more reverse bandwagon logic, and then all of these points are just confbias trying to justify the original phallicy. The problem is that the purpose of this post is really shady. You build what you seem to view as a fairly damning case on droog, but then you you never call him scum in the post. It seems to just be discrediting egg's read on droog, but you never call egg scum or droog scum or really put pressure on them. You seem to be much more interested in stopping any potential town bloc than finding and pressuring scum.

#592. This doesn't help town in the slightest and allows for him to hop around without generating any information or giving town a chance to question whether his reasons are correct.

He casts aspersions without backing up his statement #236 but when asked for justification gives an extremely weak excuse #255. Also
#226. This is similar to what I mentioned in my previous post regarding actively trying to make other slots look suspicious in contrast to anti-town play.


He lies about what people did in order to make them look scummy.

This is the first time
You've said you're satisfied with rc3''s response
Why would you ask a question
Not follow up on it

And then pretend the answer always satisfied you

I was the one who mentioned the fact that scum were likely to be on the Lowell lynch wagon, yet Droog doesn't let the idea drop. This looks like it is being overly defensive. He is acting incredulous at the idea of it for the most part #362 #364 #365 #379 #428
#429 #430 #434 #442 #449
#450

I shall concentrate on laying out my case against Something Pip next.

pedit: yeah that case sucks as well, probably will respond tuesday night.
-pip

[Something Pip]

ffs, whatever you get the picture

[Something Pip]

And it took you a hell of a long time to move your vote from an RVS onto Lowell when basically you had built up a case against him and got people to agree on it. Want to really go there? And as for Droog's naked votes (now you're the one chainsawing) why should we accept that he posts explanations around his votes. Can we be sure that he always does? It's difficult enough to understand and relate back his Haiku posts as it is. His lucid moments are few and far between it seems.

Okay, first off I explained why I didn't shift immediately to Lowell

VOTE: Lowell This really should happen, I was holding my vote on convex cause I hate when people lurk out of pressure, but I'm really liking Droog's entrance so far. Taly should keep wallposting as long as the game necessitates it, but other people's lazyiness shouldn't be a reason not to wallpost, this game is going really slow anyways.

Second off I was applying pressure to someone which you currently aren't
third I actually called Lowell scum and was pushing for his lynch because I thought he was scum-IE scum hunting. 4rth A scummy post is scummy regardless of whether or not it attacks someone else or not. Come on here.
5th saying that Droog is scum because you don't like him posting his reasons for voting outside of the vote is super dumb
-pip

[Something Pip]

Spoiler: welcome to scumville, population mathilda

I don't understand why this day hasn't ended yet. Not one person has produced any convincing reason to believe that Lowell is town.

Obviously the people pushing for a Lowell lynch have not made a convincing enough argument that he is scum. People are all guilty until proved innocent in a Mafia game but we only have one lynch which means that we go for the best case on one person to be lynched. We can't rely on PoE on Day 1.

And for those who wonder who is scum on Lowell's wagon, my belief is that there aren't any (scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda) but if there are then it's Scorpious or shaddow.

And this makes me suspicious of you as well. Maybe I was right with my initial impression of you.

We can either sit here arguing our way to a no lynch, or we can lynch Lowell and, at the very worst, gain information from the flip.

We're gaining information now by seeing who is pushing for a Lowell lynch with very little information to go on and who don't bother making a good case for doing so, but telling people that it should be a default action to lynch him.

(At best of course we will lynch one scum, with another [Newbie] soon to follow.) If Lowell flips town then several people have some explaining to do, and likewise if he flips scum.

The same could be said for lynching anyone in this game. You and me included. Tell us why Lowell is the

best

candidate for lynching today.

The fact that the discussion has switched to "who on the wagon is scum?" means that our focus has shifted away from Lowell himself and toward how people have interacted with him. This discussion will only yield anything once he flips.

This is scum motivation here, not town. Town are worried about mislynching but want to generate information. Scum just want a mislynch.

I'm reading you as scum now.

So to answer Droog's question, that's both Droog and sPip as scum on the Lowell lynch wagon, which then means that it's more likely that Lowell is town and just an inactive player. I shall now be voting for him. Find someone else to finish your lynch wagon.

"guilty until proved innocent"- lol sure. Good luck finding a proof of anything.
The second point reeks of OMGUS.
The third is a misrepresentation, given that you had little information and no good case on anyone else.
The fourth is trying to make it look like we have failed to done what you are requesting, when we have done it already.
The fifth is a total misrepresentation. Literally, I said "we get no information until the flip" and you respond with "you're scum for not wanting information".

(scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda)

Another thing. Isn't it more likely that scum would be throwing their scum buddies under a bus the moment a definite lynch wagon developed on one of them? If I was a scum buddy with Lowell I would most certainly be voting for him right now. I wouldn't be sticking my neck out arguing with those wanting to lynch him. That's because I would know that he was scum and likely to be lynched and that I would be next in line.

Yes there is WIFOM and all that, but it's still best to stay away from suspicion if you can as scum. This is why your scum read is flawed at best.

hahahahahahaha
Mathilda that is LITERALLY the scummiest thing I have ever read.

LITERALLY? As in being literal? You mean my post was the scummiest post that you have ever read in your entire history of playing Mafia?

And the overly exaggerated laugh 'hahahahahaha'?

It's obvious that you are trying to cajole me. Have you considered using a or ? Because that always works in convincing people.

That's defending your partner, chainsawing his attackers, AND pushing no-lynch. Hey I've done that before...as scum.A5)3

Maybe you just suck as scum.

Okay. Lowell is scummy due

in part

to the fact that he is antitown. He is also using random and unjustified attacks and read swings, promoting apathy, using AtE, being willing to lynch anybody who isn't him, and putting words in people's mouths.

If that is all you were pushing then I would have been far less suspicious. Why all the cajoling and being absolutely sure about who scum is and that none of them are on the Lowell lynch wagon?

With that out of the way, let me just take a moment to laugh at the person pushing no-lynch (no other lynch can realistically happen today) and calling

us

antitown.

Yes let's all laugh at someone pushing for a no-lynch. Who is that again? I don't know. No one ever has. Where did I ever push for a no-lynch? Like Droog you're misrepresenting what I have said. This is scummy behaviour.

Let's see... "Generates little information" is a lie. If Lowell flips scum we have basically caught the scumteam.

And as pointed out to you before, you can say the same thing about everyone.

Let's lynch you instead. If you flip scum then we have basically caught the scum team.

"Worried about a mislynch"-who said I wasn't?

Because you are sure that Lowell is scum and are laughing at anyone who questions your push.

But going around saying "oh but what if he's town" up until the end is whiteknighting.

Only if the other person is scum and an extremely poor player. I am neither.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that town don't also have doubts about whether the person about to be lynched is also town? Because if so I can point you to times when this has happened.

But again, in your fantasy world, scum play simplistically it seems. They never lynch a scum buddy and always come to each other's defence. You seem a much better player than to believe that tripe which is why I have you down as scum.

You don't win by having doubts.

Scum certainly don't.

This post is another festival of scummy logic.
First point is trying to portray my reaction as with intent to manipulate. Rather than addressing the actual points.
Second makes no sense, given that I was pushing Lowell independent of the others, and just happened to scumread them too.
Third illustrated your unrealistic expectations, revealing how you refused to admit that no other lynch was possible.
Fourth does not line up with your other comments.
Fifth ignores the futility of expressing doubt in your biggest scumread, which is something townies ought to know about.
Sixth is you trying (and failing) to equate what you're doing with townie hesitation. Also calling me a good player when you should know that I'm not.

VOTE: mathilda
Your counter-wagon cases yesterday seemed to be divided between:
- independent of Lowells allignment
- based on the assumption he was town.

Where did I assume that he was town? I think Lowell appeared somewhat scummy, but I also wasn't sure that he wasn't just an apathetic player. As it turned out I was

right

. What made me

more

suspicious though was the push by Something Pip and Droog the closer we got to the deadline and how they were absolutely sure that there were no scum on the Lowell wagon. My reckoning was that even if Lowell was scum then there was likely to be at least one scum on there distancing themselves from him. Remember at one point I even said that I was prepared to hammer Lowell. RF3 objected, but it was the objections to any dissent that caught my eye.

Given a choice between apathetic anti-town play and pro-active scummy play, I'll vote for the latter.

I'm ok with Newbie or Mathilda, basically have a death tunnel on both.

pbpa?

Point By Point Analysis. Basically quoting a whole bunch of posts and explaining why they're scummy.
-the smart head

So hold on. You and Droog were really pushing hard for a mislynch yesterday and thinking that everyone who was unsure was scummy. Now you're pushing hard to lynch those very people who were proven right??

I suppose it's true, offence really is the best defence.

VOTE: Something Pip

First paragraph is emphasizing your whiteknighting play and focusing on a point that was irrelevant (determining whether scum was on Lowell's wagon was a useless endeavor before he flipped).
Second is saying "right = town". In fact the correlation is more opposite. Guess which faction has more information, town or scum? Being wrong is only really scummy if you can show it's not genuine.

I'm ok with Newbie or Mathilda,

basically have a death tunnel on both.

Let's think about this for a moment. Despite death tunneling Lowell yesterday, Pip here does exactly the same thing today.

From a single player you could argue that maybe it's just their style of play (if you're being diplomatic about it that is).

But Pip is a hydra. That means that there are two (?) players co-ordinating their actions. It is far less likely that both players just happen to suffer from the same fixation and susceptibility to confirmation bias. It is more likely that the two players have decided in advance who they will be pushing for today.

Now compare this to RF3. Here we have a hydra with three heads. In terms of balance, is it likely that we would have two hydras in the same faction? That would mean 5 brains working on one problem. It's more likely TvS.

So which one is which?

RF3 has been inconsistent. In a single player this would be scummy but in a hydra it suggests a lack of information and different people trying to figure things out. This suggests that RF3 is town.

Something Pip on the other hand has been very strong in his reads and openly admits to death tunneling despite pushing hard for a mislynch. There's no doubt here. No lack of confidence that you see with other players who have death tunnelled and been proven wrong. This suggests to me that a co-ordinated plan to lynch someone specific rather than to try to find scum. This tells me that Something Pip is scum.

The "two hydras" argument is completely incomprehensible and its purpose is to create a false dichotomy. It was a failed attempt at manipulation that, fortunately for you, only failed because it didn't make sense, and not because the manipulation was obvious.

You and Droog were really pushing hard for a mislynch yesterday

we iddnt know at the time it was a mislnchy
or at least i didnt
youre ust spinning a narrative

Yes but you and Something Pip didn't even contemplate the idea that it might have been. You did not display any doubt. This was in Day 1. Town starts with no information whatsoever so doubt is natural because we're essentially just guessing. Scum start knowing that everyone else is town so they have far less doubt about who needs to be lynched. This needs to be faked and faking is difficult.

I didn't know that it was a mislynch either, and after twilight I was thinking that maybe Lowell was scum after all by the things that he was saying. But I was at least

trying to lynch scum

. There is nothing to suggest that you were worried about which person to lynch. You did not do any scum hunting.

If you pick someone at random then chances are that it's going to be a mislynch. So if you push for that without caring whether you are correct or not, then you are effectively pushing for a mislynch.

A true townie mindset would realize that if you don't have confidence in your biggest scumread, then you aren't really getting anywhere in helping town. Since you clearly didn't recognize this, you must be scum.
Also, you're misrepresenting droog and us by saying the choice of Lowell was random. And you're saying, "once you found who you wanted to push, you didn't look for any more scum", which is (a) wrong and (b) not grounds to discredit us anyway.

OK I've probably gone as far as I can for the moment trying to find scum. There are a few things that I need to bear in mind with my scum reads.

Droog seems to always be a scummy player by default and I need to compare his current scummy play with his scummy play when he was actually scum. That means looking at a previous game he played and comparing, which takes time. I've played with people like him before and it's essentially a completely random slot.

Something Pip is a hydra. One head is scummy as usual (the self proclaimed smart head), whereas the other gave some indication of re-evaluating their previous position.

I'm finding it difficult to follow Trow's posts a lot of the time. He doesn't express himself clearly and I'm not entirely sure that he's not reading posts properly. Although he has replaced in so there is a lot of information to process.

So I'm going to do a bit of a PoE to reduce the pool of candidates.

RF3 is town. All three heads have clearly been trying to figure things out.
Shaddowez is town. Probing questions and an active scum hunter.
Karnage: Same.

I'll put Newbie as a slight town lean for the moment. I did note how Newbie joined the lynch wagon but I thought that with 2 days to go and it looking like a counter wagon was not going to succeed it was a reasonable thing to do. Lowell certainly did not play pro-town so lynching him was a valid choice.

This leaves:

Egg who hasn't yet made a proper entrance so I need to reserve judgement.

Who else is there? I'm having trouble keeping track of who has replaced out and who is lurking.

You can't be bothered to read into droog's posts, calling him scummy by default. I think you are unintentionally indicating your scum plans to mislynch droog. All of your PoE townreads are crap as they could just as easily apply to droog and us.
Lol and you also called Newbie town for doing something you failed to do.

-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Okay.
Droog put into words what I was thinking but couldn't articulate.
Trow put into words what I was thinking but didn't want to articulate quite yet.
Mathilda is clearly flailing and attempting to WIFOM whether Newbie and RF3 are her partners. I think one of them is, almost for certain, but it's unlikely that both are.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Mathilda's town and I'm going to burden of proficiency the shit out of anyone who votes her.

All 3 of you are better players than to expect that just saying that Mathilda is town is enough. Technically the burden of proficiency is on you guys not only to find scum but to actually be able to convince town of that fact. The only time any of your heads did any serious sort of pushing was the intent to hammer/hammer on Lowell. RC either needs to explain his reads or get better reads. I respect all of you as players but seriously you need to step this up a little.
-pip

Pedit: stop it Mathilda.

[Something Pip]

If Mathilda flips town, we lynch Newbie, because she's been scummy in her own right for a while.
If Mathilda flips scum, we lynch RF3, because their interactions have been abysmal. Whatever they flip, Newbie is probably the opposite since that interaction is very likely not SvS.
I disagree with droog in that RF3's scumminess is in large part based on Mathilda being scum.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Mathilda is not being flipped.

You guys are so incredibly cheeky. if town was actually making an effort we'd be ripping you guys apart right now.

You know what RC, my other head might hate me for this, but please actually do that. I hate how little resistance both of my scumreads take to lynch, and I have certain concerns. Look I'll admit that the early point about how we hard pushed a mislynch yesterday is not something scum would do is wrong, that exactly is my scum strategy. However I also hardpush as town. No one has really made a strong case against this slot or for townMathilda, so if you really think that please actually make posts that aren't just "I'm right you are wrong"

VOTE: JF3 I think you have a higher chance of flipping scum right now.

I probably will go back to mathilda based on how hard you are pushing the counterwagon with no real cases. I really hate the way your slot has been playing this game and you guys need to step it up in a big way right now.

-obviously pip.

[Something Pip]

so what you're saying

is that I need to give explanations and examples instead of relying on "welp I'm RC."

unlike rf3 where every time he overrides taly and johnny

I did absolutely nothing D1 even though I was townreading Lowell because their reads disagreed with mine.

Now they've basically disappeared from thread I have strong scum reads so I'm going to push them.

Do I really have to say yes to this? obviously I want reasons.

[Something Pip]

nooooo, pip. Whatever, if Mathilda gets to L-1 I'm instahammering.

RC here and Mathilda is probably my biggest townread this game.

This is not the first time you've mentioned your townread on Mathilda, but it is the first time you really committed hard to it.
And you never, not once, gave

any

sort of reason for it.
So I don't know why you expect people to listen to you. And I also don't know why you call everyone not listening to you scum. (Well actually, I do, it's because you're scum and chainsawing your partner.)
-obviously the smart head

[Something Pip]

I did absolutely nothing D1 even though I was townreading Lowell because their reads disagreed with mine.

whats your point
your reads were so different form theirs
that it became hard to sort you

regardless of the fact that they were driving
and you were backseat

personally im fine with waiting on you
until we get more flipts
but if you want to give more examples
id love a back and forth

No, see this isn't going to be happening because you're trying to lynch my townreads.
I'm not okay with my townreads being lynched.
I'm not positive if you're scum or not but continue to try to lynch my townreads and you will be lynched.

RC your scumreads are egg for no known reasons, and then the two people pushing Mathilda. Unless you have a solid reason to townread Mathilda that you would like to share with the class, yeah I like the associations between you and Mathilda right now as lynch targets
-pip

[Something Pip]

Dude Mathilda isn't scummy and I don't understand the wagon whatsoever.

Dude she's spent the entire day trying to milk towncred for not lynching Lowell. Then she attacks egg townreadng droog, but then doesn't vote either until you subtly start hinting that she should vote. It may not be confScum, but it certainly isn't worthy of a townread. I actually really like droog or whoever's point about you coaching mathilda. I think it actually possible that Mathilda flips town here, but you seriously need to justify like everything you've done today.

-pip

[Something Pip]

Lol Mathilda I just think it's so funny how you think we care that you "we're prepared to hammer Lowell". Obviously, though, the towncred for being off the wagon goes to the slot that ACTUALLY hammered. Now that makes sense.
At this point it's clear that you purposely stayed off the Lowell wagon so that you could call people scummy just for pushing it without worrying about accusations of hypocrisy. You did nothing to push any other lynch (I mistook this for trying to get a no-lynch to save your partner, when in fact it was whiteknighting). As I have heard, sometimes it's more suspicious to be OFF a wagon if you have no reason to be off than to be on a wagon, even if it's on town.
If anyone wants to watch Mathilda flail a bit more, I won't deny you that pleasure, but this is by far where I feel most comfortable lynching today. RF3 tomorrow, maybe.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

@Mod: What is your policy on hydras posting with their mains?

I'd feel much more comfortable on a Mathilda wagon. She was fairly obviously flailing. Lynching RF3 is not a bad idea but I'm less certain with that.
Trow, Egg, I think you both should vote Mathilda or explain why not.

[Something Pip]

Shoot that submitted before I had a chance to sign.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Karnage I agree about the scum ploy.
But please, Mathilda's been so ridiculously antitown. Now she's claimed to have armed N1 when the scum would have had a -10000% chance of killing her if she were town given the pressure, and she's self voted. Let's get rid of this first.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

What I am about to do is, whether you agree with it or not, is intended to play to my win condition. I am town. Town needs to generate information. That information has been generated but is being buried under noise from scum who keep repeating the same arguments and not listening to responses. I don't want it buried any more. Scum have revealed themselves by voting for me and still not managed to get enough votes because of inactive players.

I am now no longer worried about you being town, yeesh "scum have revealed themselves"...

I can do this because I used my PGO last night therefore I am now no longer anything other than a vanilla townie. Therefore my role now is expendable.

The only point of saying this is to seem towny. It doesn't help any analysis at all, and hurts the gamestate if you live through today somehow

I want you to remember these things:

Droog advocated focusing on RF3 if I flip town, but Newbie if I flip scum. Yet he gave the same reason for both that they were aiding me and backing me up. Yet he could not explain why they should be treated different. If Droog was town then he'd be thinking that if I flip scum then he should tunnel both Newbie and RF3, and look elsewhere if I flip town. But what he did was lay out optimal scum strategy. He knows that I will flip town so wants to seed people with the idea that somehow this means that RF3 needs to be lynched next.

This is a decent point, but hurt a shit ton by you voting for egg instead of droog. This is more confidant than you have been for any of your other reads, yet you have never advocated for a Droog counterwagon today.

Newbie has always been close to being lynched anyway so she would likely be the next target anyway. Droog would only advocate this if he was scum. He was thinking about scum needs to do next and not what town needs to do. This is why it is a scum slip.

People really need to stop saying this, it is scummy but in no way is a scumslip. Scumslips are almost NAI imo honestly.

My scum reads are Droog, Something Pip, and either Egg or Trow. I was wondering about Karnage also being scum when he moved onto my lynch wagon when I goaded him to, but overall I am going to revert back to my town lean on him.

Both Droog and Something Pip have deliberately twisted what people have said to make them look suspicious. You can read their posts and wonder how they misunderstood what was said so badly.

If that was true you should have actually had posts where you made this point instead of throwing it in before your selfvote gambit.

I am no longer at L-1 so it will be interesting to see who jumps back on my wagon to hammer me. Please do not let this be a waste because town will lose otherwise.

VOTE: Mathilda

So you have selfvoted. Now as someone that has done this twice and actually got townread for it both times, this selfvote is really bad. You are putting yourself at L-1 where someone you are sure is town is currently pushing an ally of yours and has stated intent to return to your wagon. My other head complained about leaving your wagon, if you actually thought we were scum here know that this post 100% would have been a hammer. Even right now there are so many contradictions with this selfvote that I really want to hammer here, but I want a little more analysis and some posts from taly and Johnny. I don't think your posts ever helps your wincon, but I think there is the "I might get townread for this" logic as scum which isn't present as town since you would just think my slot would hammer you, which honestly is probably is going to happen.

-pip
TLDR: Mathilda finally started voting for scum.

[Something Pip]

Mod can we have a VC please?

Did I miscount? I counted twice and I'm pretty sure Mathilda is at L-2.
If you vote I will be happy to drop the hammer.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

VOTE: mathilda

In case mod doesn't count it.
VOTE: Mathilda
Fine with an RF3 lynch tomorrow.

If Mathilda flips town I have a few choice words for her postgame.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Vote Newbie

My thoughts on her haven't changed. There's got to be scum on that Mathilda lynch but I'm not quite sure where. I want to say Karnage but I'm just not as confident he's scum as I am with Newbie.

I mean it could be you.

[Something Pip]

I'm pretty sure all three scum are in <Newbie, MrTrow, shaddowez, RF3slot, Egg>.
Going to do a close read and take notes. You probably won't hear much from me in the next few days.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Also

@mod droog replaced out of some of his other games, saying he was in the hospital. You might want to check on him and start looking for a replacement.

[Something Pip]

We have to find 3 scum in 4 lynches right now.

[Something Pip]

Okay, guys. A gigantic case will be coming eventually, probably as a joint effort between me and pip. My analysis is not finished, but here is the conclusion I am formulating:

Egg, MrTrow and shaddowez are scum.

I'm not totally confident on this, but I have a feeling the scum will be trying to mislynch us or Newbie today (the quickwagon on Newbie supports this), and I want to get my initial thoughts out now.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

@Titus I bet their plan for today was for shaddow and egg to push Newbie (and hopefully get us to follow along) while Trow doubtcasts us in a way that doesn't actually go anywhere so they can mislynch us tomorrow.
@Trow A lot has changed since then, of course, but at that point I was thinking RF3 to be obvtown until I realized that they might be Mathilda's partner. I didn't want to alert them of that suspicion because I wanted to see how they reacted around the Mathilda wagon. And it may be confbias but I hate how you assumed I was trying to answer your question when I wasn't.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

I hope to get to the Newbie-Droog exchange tomorrow as well, but as of now RF has risen to competing with Math for top-scum-read

This.
It was the general consensus that RF3 was town. But I was having thoughts that maybe they weren't, and I didn't want to mention it yet. You, evidently, had them too. (Except you didn't really because you are scum.)
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Here it is. The case you've all been waiting for.

What first caught my eye was the really terrible votes at the beginning of day 3. None of them were well-explained. 799 is Egg setting up to WK RF3. Shaddow’s is bad, and not explained (except for the accusation of WKing). Trow’s is awful, cherry-picking one line of one post that might be considered antitown (not even scummy). (Karnage’s and Titus’s weren’t great either, but read ahead.) My final conclusion is that Newbie is really bad at forming and explaining reads, but my analysis shows she probably isn’t scum. Now Trow is attacking me over basically nothing.

It is important to keep in mind that scum need two mislynches to win. We can allow one mislynch and still win. So the scum need to set up one future mislynch: “Lynch Newbie today, hopefully Something Pip will follow us, and we can lynch Something Pip tomorrow.” A push to L-2 early on is not in town’s interest, and is probably scum-led.There are nine players in this game. Before I can start to look for associations, I need to narrow down the suspect pool, using Occam's razor.

It is my opinion that it is unwise for scum to brazenly bulldoze mislynches. That makes me think droog is town. Besides, he's done a huge amount of motivation-hunting that scum generally don't do effectively. Of our townreads, Droog is probably the weakest, but given how bad the position of the game is for town here and how likely a scum victory is, certain assumptions need to be made to have the game be solvable.

Burning_Earth's early play was pretty town, and his observations were good. Titus's play has also been enough for a fairly strong town read.

I had a strong gut townread on Sharky, and Karnage has done nothing to make me doubt it. All of karnage's posts are either trying to determine alignment or trying convince other people of his reads. karnage has been independently towny, and when combined with Sharky we are pretty sure that slot is town.

None of these are set in stone. But they're good starting points for the following analysis.

Looking at the posts of <RF3, Egg, MrTrow, Newbie, shaddow>, I went through and marked each time that one of them mentioned another of them in a way that could be alignment-indicative (null mentions are omitted), and whether that mention is more likely or less likely to be scum-scum. Here are the results:

Likely

Unlikely

Egg/RF3:

576, 577, 635, 757, 762

Egg/shaddow:

422, 576, 582(weaker but still), 693

259

Egg/Newbie:

346, 576, 709, 711, 753, 793, 804

Egg/Trow:

454, 576

RF3/shaddow:

259

376, 514

RF3/Newbie:

47, 56, 60, 79, 709

RF3/Trow:

461, 487, 492, 501, 514, 562, 579, 748, 780, 781

shaddow/Newbie:

90, 361, 549

shaddow/Trow:

454

Newbie/Trow:

454

This indicates strongly a team of Egg/shaddow/Trow. There is one post that appears to make it unlikely, post 259 (bolded). This is where shaddowez votes Egg's predecessor, TheDominator37. This is bussing, I believe, especially since he unvotes four pages later for not a good reason except that Lowell is scummier (355), plus the dom wagon was starting to take off after Newbie voted for dom and we expressed interest in voting dom in the past. The reason I believe bussing did not occur before is that there are quite a lot of proven town-on-town votes. The key here is not that scum never townread each other and always align, but that the three players have hardly interacted at all. 454 for example is a readlist of Trow's where egg and shaddow were all null.

Spoiler: VCA

Flipped town

Town by PoE and Occam's razor

Top scumspects

Vote Count 1.1

Concvex

: RadiantalyFarrar3, Something Pip,

Karnage

,

Burning_Earth

RadiantalyFarrar3:

Concvex

, Newbie

Scorpious

:

Mathilda

Lowell

:

Scorpious

Something Pip:

Lowell

Not voting:

shaddowez

,

Egg

, TheyCallMeDirk

Vote Count 1.2
Something Pip:

Lowell

,

Mathilda

,

Egg

Concvex

: Something Pip,

Karnage

Newbie:

shaddowez

,

Burning_Earth

RadiantalyFarrar3:

Concvex

Lowell

:

Scorpious

Burning_Earth

: Newbie

Karnage

: RadiantalyFarrar3
Not voting: TheyCallMeDirk

Vote Count 1.3

Concvex

: Something Pip,

Karnage

Lowell

, Newbie
Something Pip:

Mathilda

,

Egg

Newbie:

shaddowez

,

Burning_Earth

RadiantalyFarrar3:

Concvex

Lowell

:

Scorpious

Burning_Earth

:

MrTrow

Karnage

: RadiantalyFarrar3

Vote Count 1.4

Concvex

: Something Pip,

Karnage

,

Lowell

, Newbie,

Burning_Earth

[L-2]

Something Pip:

Egg

Newbie:

shaddowez

RadiantalyFarrar3:

Concvex

Lowell

:

Scorpious

Burning_Earth

:

MrTrow

Karnage

: RadiantalyFarrar3
Not Voting:

Mathilda

Vote Count 1.5

Concvex

: Something Pip,

Karnage

Lowell

, Newbie,

Burning_Earth

[L-2]

Something Pip:

Egg

Newbie:

shaddowez

RadiantalyFarrar3:

Concvex

Lowell

:

Scorpious

Burning_Earth

:

MrTrow

Karnage

RadiantalyFarrar3

Egg

:

Mathilda

Vote Count 1.6

Droog

:

Karnage

,

Lowell

, Newbie,

Mathilda

Lowell

:

Scorpious

, RadiantalyFarrar3, Something Pip,

Droog

Something Pip:

Egg

Newbie:

Burning_Earth

Burning_Earth

:

MrTrow

Egg

:

shaddowez

Vote Count 1.7

Lowell

:

Scorpious

, RadiantalyFarrar3, Something Pip,

Droog

Karnage

[L-2]

Droog

Lowell

,

Mathilda

Something Pip:

Egg

Newbie:

Burning_Earth

Burning_Earth

:

MrTrow

Egg

: Newbie
Not voting:

shaddowez

Vote Count 1.8

Lowell

:

Scorpious

, Something Pip,

Droog

,

Karnage

shaddowez

, Newbie

[L-1]

Droog

:

Mathilda

, RadiantalyFarrar3
Something Pip:

Egg

Newbie

Burning_Earth

,

MrTrow

shaddowez

:

Lowell

Vote Count 1.9

Lowell

:

Scorpious

, Something Pip,

Droog

,

Karnage

,

shaddowez

, Newbie

[L-1]

Droog

:

Mathilda

, RadiantalyFarrar3
Something Pip:

Egg

Newbie:

Burning_Earth

,

MrTrow

shaddowez

:

Lowell

Vote Count 1.10

Lowell

:

Scorpious

, Something Pip,

Droog

,

Karnage

,

shaddowez

, Newbie, RadiantalyFarrar3

Lynched

Droog

:

Mathilda

Something Pip:

Egg

Newbie:

Burning_Earth

,

MrTrow

shaddowez

Lowell

Vote Count 2.1

Mathilda

:

Droog

,

MrTrow

, Something Pip
Newbie:

Karnage

Something Pip:

shaddowez

Droog

: Newbie

Egg

: RadiantalyFarrar3

Vote Count 2.1

Mathilda

:

Droog

,

MrTrow

, Something Pip,

shaddowez

[L-2]
Newbie:

Karnage

,

Egg

Droog

: Newbie

Egg

: RadiantalyFarrar3
Not Voting:

Mathilda

,

Burning_Earth

Scorpious

Vote Count 2.2

Mathilda

:

Droog

,

shaddowez

Egg

,

Mathilda

,

Karnage

, Something_Pip [Lynch]

Egg

: RadiantalyFarrar3, Newbie
RadiantalyFarrar3:

MrTrow

Not Voting:

Burning_Earth

Scorpious

The first thing I looked for in VCA was who was

off

both lynches. In my opinion, both players were scummy enough that scum could be on fine. The only two players off both lynches were MrTrow and Burning_Earth, and BE was not even there at all day 2. So right off the bat, I got the feeling that maybe MrTrow was trying not to associate himself with townwagons. Especially with his switch to RF3, who was not going to be lynched.
Another thing to note is that never, until the Mathilda wagon, did any two of them vote together. And when it looked like Egg would get pressure for not being on Mathilda's wagon, Trow hopped off so that all three of them would not be sitting on the same wagon.

One of the most important things to consider when considering a scumteam is, what is their agenda and have they pushed it? They absolutely have. Shaddow and Egg have encouraged the mislynches with their votes. Trow has stayed off the mislynches so that when he comes out with a case on us it will seem valid. They haven't interacted much with each other, and decided bussing was not a good strategy because of the setup and because town was eating itself. Now they're going to have Egg and shaddow hard push Newbie while Trow quietly pushes us. That would enable them to easily get one vote on us tomorrow, and quickhammer.

VOTE: MrTrow we are most confident in him

-pip and smart

[Something Pip]

VOTE: Pip

First things first, the best VCAs are done with scumflips but in desperation can be done without it. The proper way to do a VCA is to grab all the VCs, color them. Detail what you expect to find. Type out your conclusion with evidence.

Right now, the pattern you observe can just as easily be town trying to correct the ship, which is what I think happened. The VCA doesn't support the strong conclusions you make.

Second, your newbie read is whiteknighting to all hell. You got a guy who is terrible at expressing reads, you draw him out? Terrible at forming reads...that's a scum sign, not a town one. If you say he's terrible at forming reads then you can encourage people to disregard him while making him look like a mislynch that has to happen before lylo with your hands clean.


@egg, I just botched a 3p lylo game.

First off, neither of us are particularly experienced at VCA and the conclusions brought were more about the lack of interaction between the 3 players rather than the VCA.
Second is that I honestly can't imagine the 4 people on Newbie all being town here, the speed in which that wagon took off without really any strong analysis backing it up really concerned me and just everyone coming to the same conclusion at the same time like that is odd to say the least. While it could be scum bussing their partner, the game gets much more difficult for mafia if we end up going to 5v2. Also I think the no kill yesterday was very much indicative of a newer scum team since that decision gave town an extra lynch. Obviously these don't make Newbie town here, and her reaction to the wagon was terrible, but that doesn't mean that pointing out concerns with the wagon is whiteknighting, especially when we are so far from the deadline.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Something Pip I believe this is

L-2

Only scum have the luxury of speaking in absolutes, so saying "X, Y, and Z are definitely scum" does not look to come from a town POV.

Really lazy read, isn't factually true if you meta either of us and doesn't actually look at the quality of our reads.

You're also taking multiple things out of context in order to frame your argument, not actually using context and interactions. You're not willing to say anybody is town unless they've flipped or you're using PoE (again, based on your

certainty

that the three of us you've listed are scum).

I honestly don't understand what you are saying here, but I'm pretty sure its wrong. The people that flipped are what we call confirmed town, and past that droog, titus and scorp are genuine townreads of ours based on post quality.

I can find multiple instances of interactions, or lack of interactions, that meet up with your "scum team" criteria. It's also convenient that you know this whole plan of how we've all schemed up the day, which is exactly why we're all acting the way we are.

What are these arguments? No we don't think that these decision were necessarily conscious explicitly laid out strategies, but were the result of scum not wanting to interact with scum when town is consistently barking up the wrong tree.

Additionally, Newbie, one of your town reads, is reading myself and Trow as town - so either you're saying she's a terrible player, or something else is fishy.

This is an awful argument, yesterday we were townreading shaddow, didn't support the wagon on egg at all and none of our scum worlds contained you. Town have wrong reads all the time, hence why we've had two mislynches this game so far.

Lastly (for now), I've been reading Newbie as scummy since my intro post, so saying that I haven't made any arguments against her is BS.

i'd prefer a newbie lynch over a something pip lynch atm

VOTE: newbie

Does this still hold true?

Also, while I still think Newbie is scum, I'm not sure who the third is. This doesn't seem like the Scum!Titus I've played with before, so I'm pretty sure it's not that slot. If I absolutely had to guess right now it would be the RF3 slot, but I'm not positive.

So you think we have bussed this entire game and just so happened that town liked the mislynches better than the actual scum. We would have supported a newbie lynch all of d1 and most of d2, and I started the counterwagon on RF3 yesterday.

Huh?

3 votes and resign with shitty reads list?

My Spidey sense is tingling...

^I agree with this. Newbie has gotten quiter as she's gotten more suspected and the reads lisr + "peace" rubs me the wrong way there.

No...I am not yet. Given my last game that just finished, I am a little reluctant to rush to judgment here.

I had two others that went well...and then that one.

Elaborate please.

Something Pip, if Concvex and Lowell both got to L-2 as town with no scum on the wagon, it would honestly be in the top 5 craziest things I've ever seen in a mafia game and I'm guessing I've played about 300 games. That's not VCA. That's trying to make VCA fit with your theory.

Okay, this is a fair point and one I talked to SS about. I think there is a fair chance that droog might be scum here (hence the weaker read disclaimer I added). I hard push as scum so I think it is much more likely that droog is scum than SS.

-pip

Pedit: I honestly think of the 3 egg might be the towniest. I might move to Shaddowz after 831 though.

[Something Pip]

It's funny how Trow's case on us is primarily based one one thing I said, and how he can't see why that's pro-town.
That's what made us most confident on him. Newbie, what is town about him?
@shaddow I didn't directly think you were scum in 805, 805 was PoE.
@egg re: the VCA several things I couldn't believe ended up being true this game.
By the way, Newbie, the reason I won't vote Egg first is that the next most likely team is Trow/shaddow/Newbie. I'm actually starting to lean more likely on that. Trow and shaddow should die first.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

pretty sure trow was already voting something pip

I most certainly was. (and am)

so indeed PIP @ L-1

Question is: why aren't you?

No i'm not telling you to hammer (i want to hear from the headless hydra before that happens)
I'm asking you to comment on the 'btw. no i will not vote my scumread, in fact i'm considering you to be scum(completely unrelated of-course), even if that completely contradicts everything in my case(which still holds up enough to not lynch you yet, don't worry)'

Wow, its almost as if we were being asked to vote the one mistake in our case by scum so we could get a mislynch today and then you guys yell at us tomorrow for making a mistake in our case, get a mislynch and then win the game...

Anything about the 'initial' case might also be useful

Or are you going to hold on to your accusation, that newbie contributed more in D3 is all completely my fault and that somehow makes me scum?
In that case, how about explaining that logic?

It's funny how Trow's case on us is primarily based one one thing I said, and how he can't see why that's pro-town.
That's what made us most confident on him. Newbie, what is town about him?

Should i take this as 'no intent what so ever to answer'

Yes because it is a dumb semantics point that is never alignment indicative when there is a shit ton of stuff you should be saying. All I have is "omg your case sucks", which I don't think is necessarily true, but even if it is. What is your theory then "only scum make bad cases". You are so upset by us calling you scum that you are willing to vote us and do this bullshit of you asking everyone else "why aren't you voting for SP" instead of actually doing things to prove that we are scum since you know that we are town. You found 1 thing that you can use to try to attack us, but nothing you've done today even begins to court the idea of scumhunting. What world do you think we are in right now? Who are our partners? Why exactly is the case bad and why is that alignment indicative? But instead of answering questions that help town, you are just yelling about how we called you scum. Our wagon is made of Titus and people we called scum, 2 of whom are asking us to vote egg, which is why I said no because of how suspect that was.

PIP: 2 questions:
- do you believe even a single word of that case you just presented?

No, we just make made up cases for fun, scum is actually droog, titus and karnage .

- which one?

screw you, here I have a counter question -why is you scum game so blatent when someone makes a case and why are you so threatened by this case that you think is BS?

(there is no way, 2 town-aligned players, sat together, went over this case and both signed off on it)

There is no way a town aligned player would ever make posts as bad as this one, see how easy this is to say and how it wastes so much time and is so devoid of content.

and I started the counterwagon on RF3 yesterday.

Wasn't the fact i was pushing RF3, while you believed it in the town's best interest, to keep your suspicions of RF3 hidden.
Your entire answer to our, 'what were you saying here (because i doubt there is a town-motivation for this)'-exchange.

I don't know what the flying hell you are taking about, I was the first person to call RF3 scum yesterday, made a case that you liked and voted for and voted for it before you. Check the chronology mister. Holy shit you are just announcing that you are scum right now.

That statement of which you, take my unwillingness, to tell you which explanation i would buy, as your entire connection-independent argument.

So yeah, pip-case:
- there is no way 2 people sat together, formed a case made up entirely of connection-tells, call it occam's razor, and actually believe it themselves.

Seriously stop wasting time by name calling. Either try to actually solve the game and move town forward or shut up. This "lol the case sucks" is first the discourse level of a 10 year old, and second is still bullshit

- there is no way 2 people sat together, formed any of the arguments elsewhere in that case and actually believed it.

why are you obsessed about it and so defensive about it then, if you think it is that weak

- claimed there was something new in a post, but refused to state what. when pressed about it, presented something that only wasn't new, but also directly contradicts their own views:
'the thing trow stated, that we didn't want out there: "RF3 might be scum" ', 'do you really believe i've been bussing the entire game: i'm the one that started the RF3 wagon'

I started the RF3 wagon, the pip head. SS had some other things going on, idk, he never told me. One head contradicting the other is not the same as a single head being hypocritical.

- presents the fact i think they're scum as a scumtell.

No, Titus thinks we are scum and she is my highest townread right now. The way that you have attacked us though is just through name calling and fallacies. Nothing you have said even tries to prove that we are scum. You've managed to waste a ton of time, but nothing you have said helps town at all.

the next most likely team is Trow/shaddow/Newbie

Care to present 'the case we've all been waiting for'
literally anything but occam's razor, on this one?
btw wasn't your 'other' case based on all-but-one egg-centered interactions AND the plan to push a mislynch on newbie?

The Newbie mislynch is what worried me and made me think that she might be town even though her actions this game have been unilaterally scummy. Her reactions and the egg push make me rethink that

Present your case on this one please.

We probably will at some point because that is something that actually helps town solve the game. How about you actually try making a case of anything right now?

What's the case the other way around?:
- thinks i'm scum therefore must be scum

We called you scum in that huge case before you called us scum dude. You are flipping the chronology

- sees no town motivation in a lie.

I have no idea what you are talking about here, but its probably wrong based on everything else you have written

- hey i can twist the votecounts into something that might (read: doesn't) make sense on these 3

The VCA was honestly more for practice than something we used to draw significant conclusions from, which I have mentionned already but since that is the easiest to attack here we are.

- at the moment it would be easy to stay/be on unnoticed, he jumped off a wagon at the hint of 'not being on this wagon is a scumtell'

What the hell are you talking about here, doing something that draws attention to yourself and might look scummy but you do it anyways is a scumtell now. So in your world scum are never the people who quietly just stay in the middle and try to avoid bringing attention to themselves? Wow your points stink, I can't imagine any town player ever making such a bad case.

Care to state where my vote should have been instead?

Yourself would be a good bet, shaddowz if you don't want to selfvote and still want to vote scum.

or was that just an empty accusation as well?

TL;DR: VOTE: Something pip
case is shit
accusations make no sense (but i repeat myself)
refuses to back stuff up (but i repeat myself)

You still haven't even tried to prove scum intent. Again because you know it isn't there so you don't want to try and find it.

Did you know you were already voting Something Pip?

Did i know my vote was already on the currently scummiest person in thread,
when i restated my vote in a TL;DR?
Yes i did.

I knew my vote was already on the persons who accused me of voting them for no good reason, in the very post i was responding to.
a post that dodged all criticism of the intent behind his flat out terrible case.

Why the hell are you this defensive about your vote on us. The answer here is yes, not yes btw can I tell you about how sucky these people are again for the tenth time while just coincidently not mentioning anything that is the slightest bit alignment indicative. Here's the thing mister trow, you don't make a case calling 3 town scum because as scum if you want them lynched because you need the town to vote who you want them to and you've already made 3 of them OMGUS you.

Given how

That's not VCA. That's trying to make VCA fit with your theory.

you seem to doubt his sincerity, in that case.

Same question i posed to karnage:
Why aren't you voting him?

Yeah, keeping on asking people why they aren't voting us, nice distraction, I'll have to start adding this to my scum game it seems to work really well.

Agreed with the question @newbie not being fluff.

Newbie:
did you know it was not a hammer?
did you care?
why not?

also
did you see the interactions you were waiting for, before voting?

The interactions are that 3 people went of the handle the minute we called the scum, and 1 person -egg didn't. A case is half about the actual case and half about the reactions. You, shaddow, and Newbie all reacted absolutely terribly to the case.

[Something Pip]

Here egg.

Spoiler: non amber

pretty sure trow was already voting something pip

I most certainly was. (and am)

so indeed PIP @ L-1

Question is: why aren't you?

No i'm not telling you to hammer (i want to hear from the headless hydra before that happens)
I'm asking you to comment on the 'btw. no i will not vote my scumread, in fact i'm considering you to be scum(completely unrelated of-course), even if that completely contradicts everything in my case(which still holds up enough to not lynch you yet, don't worry)'

Wow, its almost as if we were being asked to vote the one mistake in our case by scum so we could get a mislynch today and then you guys yell at us tomorrow for making a mistake in our case, get a mislynch and then win the game...

Anything about the 'initial' case might also be useful

Or are you going to hold on to your accusation, that newbie contributed more in D3 is all completely my fault and that somehow makes me scum?
In that case, how about explaining that logic?

It's funny how Trow's case on us is primarily based one one thing I said, and how he can't see why that's pro-town.
That's what made us most confident on him. Newbie, what is town about him?

Should i take this as 'no intent what so ever to answer'

Yes because it is a dumb semantics point that is never alignment indicative when there is a shit ton of stuff you should be saying. All I have is "omg your case sucks", which I don't think is necessarily true, but even if it is. What is your theory then "only scum make bad cases". You are so upset by us calling you scum that you are willing to vote us and do this bullshit of you asking everyone else "why aren't you voting for SP" instead of actually doing things to prove that we are scum since you know that we are town. You found 1 thing that you can use to try to attack us, but nothing you've done today even begins to court the idea of scumhunting. What world do you think we are in right now? Who are our partners? Why exactly is the case bad and why is that alignment indicative? But instead of answering questions that help town, you are just yelling about how we called you scum. Our wagon is made of Titus and people we called scum, 2 of whom are asking us to vote egg, which is why I said no because of how suspect that was.

PIP: 2 questions:
- do you believe even a single word of that case you just presented?

No, we just make made up cases for fun, scum is actually droog, titus and karnage .

- which one?

screw you, here I have a counter question -why is you scum game so blatent when someone makes a case and why are you so threatened by this case that you think is BS?

(there is no way, 2 town-aligned players, sat together, went over this case and both signed off on it)

There is no way a town aligned player would ever make posts as bad as this one, see how easy this is to say and how it wastes so much time and is so devoid of content.

and I started the counterwagon on RF3 yesterday.

Wasn't the fact i was pushing RF3, while you believed it in the town's best interest, to keep your suspicions of RF3 hidden.
Your entire answer to our, 'what were you saying here (because i doubt there is a town-motivation for this)'-exchange.

I don't know what the flying hell you are taking about, I was the first person to call RF3 scum yesterday, made a case that you liked and voted for and voted for it before you. Check the chronology mister. Holy shit you are just announcing that you are scum right now.

That statement of which you, take my unwillingness, to tell you which explanation i would buy, as your entire connection-independent argument.

So yeah, pip-case:
- there is no way 2 people sat together, formed a case made up entirely of connection-tells, call it occam's razor, and actually believe it themselves.

Seriously stop wasting time by name calling. Either try to actually solve the game and move town forward or shut up. This "lol the case sucks" is first the discourse level of a 10 year old, and second is still bullshit

- there is no way 2 people sat together, formed any of the arguments elsewhere in that case and actually believed it.

why are you obsessed about it and so defensive about it then, if you think it is that weak

- claimed there was something new in a post, but refused to state what. when pressed about it, presented something that only wasn't new, but also directly contradicts their own views:
'the thing trow stated, that we didn't want out there: "RF3 might be scum" ', 'do you really believe i've been bussing the entire game: i'm the one that started the RF3 wagon'

I started the RF3 wagon, the pip head. SS had some other things going on, idk, he never told me. One head contradicting the other is not the same as a single head being hypocritical.

- presents the fact i think they're scum as a scumtell.

No, Titus thinks we are scum and she is my highest townread right now. The way that you have attacked us though is just through name calling and fallacies. Nothing you have said even tries to prove that we are scum. You've managed to waste a ton of time, but nothing you have said helps town at all.

the next most likely team is Trow/shaddow/Newbie

Care to present 'the case we've all been waiting for'
literally anything but occam's razor, on this one?
btw wasn't your 'other' case based on all-but-one egg-centered interactions AND the plan to push a mislynch on newbie?

The Newbie mislynch is what worried me and made me think that she might be town even though her actions this game have been unilaterally scummy. Her reactions and the egg push make me rethink that

Present your case on this one please.

We probably will at some point because that is something that actually helps town solve the game. How about you actually try making a case of anything right now?

What's the case the other way around?:
- thinks i'm scum therefore must be scum

We called you scum in that huge case before you called us scum dude. You are flipping the chronology

- sees no town motivation in a lie.

I have no idea what you are talking about here, but its probably wrong based on everything else you have written

- hey i can twist the votecounts into something that might (read: doesn't) make sense on these 3

The VCA was honestly more for practice than something we used to draw significant conclusions from, which I have mentionned already but since that is the easiest to attack here we are.

- at the moment it would be easy to stay/be on unnoticed, he jumped off a wagon at the hint of 'not being on this wagon is a scumtell'

What the hell are you talking about here, doing something that draws attention to yourself and might look scummy but you do it anyways is a scumtell now. So in your world scum are never the people who quietly just stay in the middle and try to avoid bringing attention to themselves? Wow your points stink, I can't imagine any town player ever making such a bad case.

Care to state where my vote should have been instead?

Yourself would be a good bet, shaddowz if you don't want to selfvote and still want to vote scum.

or was that just an empty accusation as well?

TL;DR: VOTE: Something pip
case is shit
accusations make no sense (but i repeat myself)
refuses to back stuff up (but i repeat myself)

You still haven't even tried to prove scum intent. Again because you know it isn't there so you don't want to try and find it.

Did you know you were already voting Something Pip?

Did i know my vote was already on the currently scummiest person in thread,
when i restated my vote in a TL;DR?
Yes i did.

I knew my vote was already on the persons who accused me of voting them for no good reason, in the very post i was responding to.
a post that dodged all criticism of the intent behind his flat out terrible case.

Why the hell are you this defensive about your vote on us. The answer here is yes, not yes btw can I tell you about how sucky these people are again for the tenth time while just coincidently not mentioning anything that is the slightest bit alignment indicative. Here's the thing mister trow, you don't make a case calling 3 town scum because as scum if you want them lynched because you need the town to vote who you want them to and you've already made 3 of them OMGUS you.

Given how

That's not VCA. That's trying to make VCA fit with your theory.

you seem to doubt his sincerity, in that case.

Same question i posed to karnage:
Why aren't you voting him?

Yeah, keeping on asking people why they aren't voting us, nice distraction, I'll have to start adding this to my scum game it seems to work really well.

Agreed with the question @newbie not being fluff.

Newbie:
did you know it was not a hammer?
did you care?
why not?

also
did you see the interactions you were waiting for, before voting?

The interactions are that 3 people went of the handle the minute we called the scum, and 1 person -egg didn't. A case is half about the actual case and half about the reactions. You, shaddow, and Newbie all reacted absolutely terribly to the case.

[Something Pip]

Thanks for the format change, pip. There are actually some pretty solid points against Mrtrow there. Just one question though. Why is Titus your strongest town read?

BE when he posted was incredibly towny, all of Titus's posts have been very genuine. The reason she is voting us, that we were WKing Newbie, while not true, was a reasonable comment on the initial case and reflects someone when they were catching up having a very townie perspective on the gamestate. 818 feels very towny to me.

[Something Pip]

Hmm. Burn didn't seem all that town to me. The rest makes sense though. Just feels random that that slot would be your top town read...

A lot of early Burn posts had the same genuiness to them. I can't read them and not see the town perspective just sort of flowing off them. Personally those are my strongest reads since they, unlike scumhunting (which I still use as a tell), are much harder to fake even for experienced players.

-pip

[Something Pip]

my case on you is that we ignored you cause you were sheeping us onto who we thought were scum d2. However since they flipped town we are reevaluating our reads and your slot in particular has done nothing really impressive this game. We made a case on the scum team we at the time thought was the most likely. You, shaddow and Newbie all reacted really poorly and tried to manipulate us to vote the egg slot, so we have changed our reads based on those terrible reactions and have a strong scum read on all of you.

[Something Pip]

A few things of note.
First, pip and I think very differently. We are having complex thoughts on Newbie/Egg, in which there is almost certainly exactly one scum.
We are not having complex thoughts on Trow. He is scum. His reaction to the fake hammer proves it. He is committing the fallacy of petitio principii (begging the question), wherein he assumes we are scum, finds "WIFOMing Titus as partner" to be the only explanation of pip's reaction, and uses it to support the conclusion that we are scum. I know that pip's thought process in that reaction was a town one, and there is no reason why a townie should not have that reaction.

One other thing to say is that Trow accused us of twisting the facts to support our conclusions. This is demonstrably false. Coming into day 3, our top scumreads were Newbie and RF3. We listed the potential scum out of PoE, and went into the associative hunting with an open mind. I discovered, to my surprise, that the associations indicated that Newbie and RF3 were likely innocent.

If scum achieve a mislynch today, we will have to pin down all 3 scum in a row. From our POV, Trow is even scummier than from yours, because we know he is wrong. Trow is bulldozing this mislynch in a very different way from the way the previous mislynches were bulldozed: he is attempting to discredit us and destroy us, whereas we did not care what Lowell and Mathilda were saying; we just wanted them dead. Trow's case on us is undeniably scummy.

-the smart head

[Something Pip]

I want to rephrase that last paragraph. The point is that when we were pushing Lowell and Mathilda, our priority was to show that their actions this game showed scum intent and probably came from scum. Them calling us scum we responded to, but our priority was on their alignment and not their argument. Trow freaked the flip out when we called him scum with scorp and you and has bene discrediting our case for the rest of day and calling us scum for it. The case has always been the things that has been his main target instead of our actual alignment.
-pip

[Something Pip]

One other thing to say is that Trow accused us of twisting the facts to support our conclusions. This is demonstrably false.

Really?
Then demonstrate it.

Burden of proof is on the person making the claim..

went into the associative hunting with an open mind

My analysis is

not finished

, but here is the conclusion I am formulating:
Egg, MrTrow and shaddowez are scum.

You could of course also start answering some other questions, ones you've ignored before, like:
- You claim, my vote on you is so terrible, it warrants a scum-read. Yet when asked, 'really? what should my vote have been? and why?' (implied, for you argument to stand, there must have been a better option). No answer.

I answered, your vote should have been on yourself or one of your partners. This post is awful and looks like scum feeling cornered, not town trying to anything productive. Why are you asking me who you should have voted?

- When asked 'what was that thought you didn't want to articulate', the answer was 'RF3 has gone from my competing-#2 scumread, to competing-#1 scumread' and consider 'not seeing a town-motivation in that statement'(which had to be pulled out of you) as reason for a scumread.

Not the reason we are scumreading you right now trow

Care to explain how, me making that statement is in any way responsible, to you agreeing with said scumread?

I'm scumreading for mainly for your reaction to the case and you trying to manipulate people to vote us and to get us to vote egg.

Care to explain how, me making that statement 'risen a bit, but has not been an 'uncontested town' since D1. In any way changed the info you would get out of the RF3-math exchange?

You are way too obsessed about that exchange, I don't care about that exchange.

Care to explain (given how you have no explanation to the 2 questions above), how your accusation is anything other than fabricated?

well it caught scum so it couldn't be that fabricated . In general I would advice against asking pointed questions like this since they aren't answerable and are generally scummy. Like "How do you feel about rolling scum this game?" The accusation wasn't fabricated because its what we genuinely believed at the time.

I went through and marked each time that one of them mentioned another of them in a way that could be alignment-indicative

(null mentions are omitted)

First off, neither of us are particularly experienced at VCA and the conclusions brought were more about

the lack of interaction

between the 3 players rather than the VCA.

Care to explain?

Yeah, the thing that was after the VCA.

How is this not fabricated?

Magic. It was made from what we believed. Seriously if you actually thought the case was as bad as you were making it out to be, you'd think that you would be actually talking about specifics instead of just saying over and over again "its fake its fake its fake its fake jet fuel can't melt steel beams its fake its fake its fake" and thinking is an actual argument.

There is also still the outstanding issue of you claiming to be the one that started the RF-wagon

Just facts baby. We voted JF3 in post 714, you voted them 30 posts later. I like it when you mention facts cause its easier to prove you wrong

And claiming i'm the one opening up any RF is not obv-town reads.
Care to explain?

You are so upset by us calling you scum that you are willing to vote us

What's the case the other way around?:
- thinks i'm scum therefore must be scum

We called you scum in that huge case before you called us scum dude. You are flipping the chronology

Here it is. The case you've all been waiting for.

What first caught my eye was the really terrible votes at the beginning of day 3
Trow’s is awful

You were saying?


Have you answered:
- did you have any reason other than 'asked you to vote egg', to switch to newbie-scum?

I didn't like the fact that Newbie couldn't understand that we might be more certain about certain reads about others. I already explained why I thought it was so scummy.

Just to be perfectly clear:
I'm NOT asking you to rewrite/restate the case you threw out for a moment 'because she seemed to be a mislynch-target'
I'm asking if there was anything OTHER than the fact she asked you to vote your mutual scumread, why you picked it out of the trash

Because it felt like I was trying to be manipulated and I liked egg's reactions especially when compared to you, Shaddowz and Newbie.

-

Please humor me and show me - 1) how I "reacted really poorly", and 2) where I'm trying to manipulate you to vote Egg.

- any response what so ever to my answer of your wall?

Calm down and try to find my scum partners if you are so sure that I am scum here. Cause either you are going to have to bus your partners or piss of town who need to vote you need to scumside.

So which is it?Aren't you reading?Are you mudslinging?Are you somehow invested in discrediting 'Karnage, your accusation: 're-votes are inherently anti-town', is false and you know it'(without actually addressing the point)?Or is this something for which a clear explanation will be in your next post?

Just another point against someone I already thought was scum. Also, fake votes are fine. I've done it before.

So what exactly IS your point here?
Because you're not saying anything that's actually related to what you're responding to.

Wagons pick up steam and get close to lynch and she decides to push them to the tipping point.

Care to back this up?
Because, well, to be direct. This was NOT the case in either of the examples you've stated thusfar.

Actually, it is. She's been like a L-2 or L-1 vote what? 3 times now?

You've named concvex and Lowell right?
One case of 'i'm considering to vote this lurker', 'why don't you? help me add some pressure' -> 'ok' (clearly pre tipping point)
And one of 'the only reasonably possible outcomes here are a lowell-lynch or a no-lynch(due to deadline)' -> 'fair enough' (clearly post tipping point)

In the meanwhile, i'll try not to overthink the detail you just flat out stated, your attempt to pin me as newbie's buddy, is the only reason you're even interested in questioning this read

Nah dude. Something Pip raised a few points against you that were pretty solid

I was talking about your willingness to discuss your newbie read being unrelated to being willing to (re)consider your newbie read

Do you mean these points?

Trow, things Pip said that I agree with:
-You are acting like only scum make bad cases and just screaming that they are scum without any genuine attempt to help town.
-You're awfully defensive against a case you call weak.
-You accused them of OMGUS when it's clearly the other way around.
-You aren't looking for scum intent in Pip's actions.
-Your reaction to the case is just generally bad.

the answers to that would be:
- false and false

That is exactly why you voted me, wtf are you talking about.

- it is called offensive (i'm not calling the case 'weak', i'm calling it fake)

Calling a case fake is nice cause its totally subjective and you can never offer any evidence to either prove it or disprove it. Besides that though you are arguing semantics instead of anything of actual substance.

- as stated: the case itself starts with stating the early D3 votes (mine explicitly included), were what drove them to write the case

Something being based on votes doesn't make it OMGUS, wtf are you talking about

- i did state i'm calling the case FAKE, right? and the several cases where they are dodging questions?

The only reason we have ever "dodged" questions is cause you ask the exact same question in every post and I get sick of responding to it. Its always "why is case so fake" again and again and again with no evidence cause you don't have any.

- can you back this up, cause they won't

The fact that your response is just yelling fake is plenty backing up thank you very much.

and then I saw this Newbie connection and you flipped out.

really?

All of these walls which you never made before

where?
when?

You were doing a pretty good job at staying active and under the radar at the same time, but then a couple of people say a couple of things that might make people suspicious of you and now you're on a crusade against those people (Something Pip and myself).Now maybe you just don't react well to pressure. Some people are like that. But at the very least, I'm storing it in the back of my mind.

what pressure?

Me calling you confScum is pressure. Wee the lies continue.

That case that's been called bad (voteworthy fake by 3(apart from myself), the obvious result of confirmation-bias by 1 (you, if i'm not mistaken)) at the time i was accused of being afraid of a case that (by those numbers alone) can't be a threat?

Titus has posted once since that case. You and shaddowz basically omgused it. And Newbie voted when we didn't vote for what I now think was the miss in the case and we called her scum.

. It looked like someone upset at being lynched. I dunno about you, but I don't like being lynched. It doesn't happen to me often, but when it does, it feels shitty regardless of alignment.

But do you blame 1 specific person?

I blame Titus. The rest of you are just trying to fufill your wincon by lynching town.

So basically, that reaction is as null as it gets as far as Pip's alignment, but I really think is he was scum with Titus we'd have seen a better WIFOM attempt or a non-reaction. I mean just look at that follow up that screams "lol Titus you're not getting a reaction from me". If they were scum together, he'd be in the mindset where the rest of the game is the audience, not Titus.

But who would he want everyone to think he was addressing?
'the rest of the game' ? don't think so.

WTF is this argument. Are you willing to vote for Titus because of this?

Also the pre-emptive empty counter of when not containing anything remotely aimed at convincing titus(see pre-emptive, also the lack of a second half of that sentence)
and no reason to believe anyone was going to draw that conclusion. (Other than the 'obv-scum who will not be convinced by it anyway and will twist it into, well, me')
Who was that post aimed at, if not at town-trow, who he claims to be sure of, doesn't exist?

Literally everyone but you. Like I can make of list of people that that post was aimed at. Primarily Titus, but also JF3, Egg, Karnage, and it doesn't contain you in any respect, especially not the as you say nonexistant town trow

Then again i have seen scum get someone mislynched, by getting angry over being bussed before.

Good for you, who is bussing us? Why are they scum, why are they scum with us? Ooh claims are easy when you don't back them up with anything.

The response of:
'here is why it makes perfect sense for trow to think this as the result of confirmation bias.(begging the question) Therefore he is scum'
Not helping.

Doesn't make it false. I don't particularly want to help you with anything

Admittedly, it still is chump change compared to:
- pushes fake arguments (not bad. fake)

This is still the most subjective fucking argument. We can't prove that it wasn't fake and you can't prove that it was fake. So you asserting that its fake is just bad discourse. Again the evidence for it not being fake is that this isn't the reaction that town has to a fake case.

- refuses to answer questions

See point about repeated points. Call me if you make up new stuff in your PT.

[Something Pip]

Trow, you seem to be spending a lot more time thinking about what happens if we flip town then if we flip scum... it seems like you don't really think we will flip scum.
Also, can you please give your read on shaddowez, and explain it using quotes? You certainly have enough time to wallpost repeatedly about us.
-the smart head

[Something Pip]

Yeah ok. Obviously Trow's nonlogic had you all convinced anyway. I hope he is turbolynched tomorrow. There are clear differences between the way we pushed Lowell's and Mathilda's mislynches (in a towny way) and the way he pushed ours (super scummy).
Still quite confident in shaddow being his partner, given that they repeatedly refused to interact.
Last partner is either Newbie or Egg and I'm leaning Egg but I think pip's leaning Newbie so that one's going to be the toughest.

Just ftr Titus, I'm pretty sure that a scumclaim is something that can't be misguided town... you hated everything we did, but that doesn't mean we weren't trying to do the right thing. (We were, and the feedback is helpful.) Bear that in mind when entering LYLO, because it's probably going to make you vote Newbie prematurely.
-the smart head, signing off for the last time