Open 623 (White Flag) - A Moment in Time (Over)

[pistachi0n]

Hello.

The first thing I noticed when I started reading was Rhazh being hypervigilant in post 20. I'm wary of players who find it suspicious when others question them, even on page 1.

On page 2 in 35 I didn't like SirCakez asking another player to elaborate after making a one-sentence, fluffy statement himself. He kept rubbing me the wrong way in posts after that. He posted a lot of fluff, including a partial reads list, with no justification. The reads list looked like he was trying way too hard.

VOTE: SirCakez

[pistachi0n]

Do you object to my posting a reads list?

It's not the fact that you posted a reads list, it's that it was so early in the game and you didn't give reasons for why you were reading people the way you were. Still, it's content and content is useful, so object isn't the right word.

Pedit @Cow: I'm just looking at it for now--null/weak scrum. It was the first thing that jumped out at me as scummy, but other people were already pointing it out and there wasn't any focus on SirCakez, who seems way scummier.

[pistachi0n]

What do you mean by mutually exclusive? That I don't think they can't both be scum? I'm not going to do associatives until there's a scumflip. I think Cakez is scummier so that's where my vote is.

[pistachi0n]

maybe they should role claim

I don't see the point of claiming with this setup. There aren't any PRs.

[pistachi0n]

What an interesting wagon composition.
Cerberus are you willing to place a vote yet?

Could you comment on what you find interesting about it?

[pistachi0n]

I haven't really changed my opinion about them, I just have bigger fish to fry now. They are mild scumreads, you are moderate scum, and AI is scum.
Also my reads can be really capricious in the early phases of the game. Just a heads up.

I don't like this post.

We've already seen your reads being capricious in the early phases of the game. It's a little too late for "just a heads up."

[pistachi0n]

All of my scumreads were on my wagon and all of my town reads were on the SS wagon.

But what's the causality here? You're implying that they're on your wagon because you're scumreading them. Is that the case, or are you scumreading them because they're on your wagon? Same question with the townreads on the SS wagon.

[pistachi0n]

Rhazh: You were saying earlier that you're townreading Cakez based on meta. Can you link me to some games that will illustrate your point?

[pistachi0n]

it would really help me
keep a few of you straight
if you please got avatars

That's eh, that's not happening. Try reading our names?

Why are you so against having an avatar? Are you trying to make a statement? Are you morally opposed to avatars? Would you having an avatar be like a false idol that fails to represent your greatness? What gives?

[pistachi0n]

How is that backtracking? I said townies are confident in reads then called SS scummy for having no confidence in his reads.
Why wouldn't I be confident in that? Isn't white flag about the associatives and scum trying to keep each other alive?

Okay, so at a closer look I think

Townies usually have confidence in their scumreads.

and

I'm saying you jumped votes too easily for how apparently confident you were in your scumreads. No conviction in actually pushing a wagon through on the person being voted.

seems like a contradiction, but if you look at the second quote more closely, I get the impression that he's saying SS isn't confident but is trying to fake it. From phrasing like "apparently confident" and "no conviction in actually pushing a wagon."

Which is still bizarre, but not blatant backtracking. Cakes, how can you tell if someone's confidence is fake or real? What post struck you as trying to pretend to be confident? Do I understand this correctly?

[pistachi0n]

Townies are confident. I've said it multiple times.

Okay but...what? Why? This makes no sense.

Vanilla townies don't have any way of being certain of anyone's alignment (unless there's an IC or similar, which there isn't in this game.)

Assuming a normal, non-multiball setup like this one, scum know everybody's alignment. So I wouldn't expect scum to fake confidence, I'd expect them to fake a degree of uncertainty.

[pistachi0n]

Townies are confident. I've said it multiple times.

Okay but...what? Why? This makes no sense.

Vanilla townies don't have any way of being certain of anyone's alignment (unless there's an IC or similar, which there isn't in this game.)

Assuming a normal, non-multiball setup like this one, scum know everybody's alignment. So I wouldn't expect scum to fake confidence, I'd expect them to fake a degree of uncertainty.

Scum knows their reads are bull because they know who the actual scum and town are. It's naturally harder for people to push something they know is false. At least in my experience.

Yeah, that's true. At least with regards to scumreads. Very convicted townreads are easy for scum, though.

[pistachi0n]

VOTE: TheCow

I am never townread by town.

....Yeah, other people have already said this is really bad, and I'm going to agree with them. This is awful. It seems like you're trying to seem like you know you're town by making enemies with someone who's townreading you. It reeks of some kind of gambit, probably scum.

[pistachi0n]

VOTE: TheCow

I am never townread by town.

....Yeah, other people have already said this is really bad, and I'm going to agree with them. This is awful. It seems like you're trying to seem like you know you're town by making enemies with someone who's townreading you. It reeks of some kind of gambit, probably scum.

It is actually an excellent vote. All the reactions I get have been worth it.

So you were reaction testing? What have you learned?

[pistachi0n]

I know you were reaction testing, I'm asking what you've learned from the reactions you got.

[pistachi0n]

Okay, but what about my and other people's reactions caused you to change your reads?

[pistachi0n]

AI, how do you expect anyone to listen to you?

[pistachi0n]

Hey, I'm here, I'm catching up. Post being constructed.

[pistachi0n]

The SS wagon is terrible.

Vote 1: SirCakez, who's been scumreading SS since the joke post 21. Also, I'm still scumreading Cakez, so I'm biased because of that.

Vote 2: Titus, also scumreading SS since the beginning, claiming he was caught scum early on. Same thing with the 21. I don't agree with her reasoning for why SS was scum--it was the infamous post 21, and "telegraphing," but didn't give thorough reasons besides those weak ones.

Vote 3: PhantomCobalt, because of "useless theory fluff." Didn't give an example of what the useless theory fluff was, didn't push beyond that.

Vote 4: Yonom, because SS was jumping to conclusions too fast and too randomly. I don't think this was as bad as the other votes, but I disagree with it. I think it's an issue of playstyle--we have people like Cerb who are stingy with their votes and don't use unless almost certain, and we have players like SS who move the vote around to indicate who their current top scumread is.

Vote 5: Extrapolated Eagle, who voted SS after he stopped scumreading Cakez. The vote seems largely arbitrary, EE is scumreading SS for a lot of the same reasons he's townreading AI. SS doesn't seem like someone trying to blend in.

Top scum-reads are Cakez, AI, and Titus.

[pistachi0n]

@pistachio

No. I've already said I'm scumreading ss for two reasons: 1. His vote at the beginning of the game, 2. His intentionally poor logic recently. Like I have said a million times now, outside of these two mistakes, ss would be a town read because of similar reasons to why ai is a town read.

So, no. Not arbitrary at all. Don't misrepresent me.

Okay, it's not arbitrary. I still disagree with you. SS has used bad logic, I don't think it was intentional.

[pistachi0n]

Phantom, your reads are terrible.

What's terrible about them?

[pistachi0n]

I do see one inconsistency: SS--why were you changing your vote so often in early game but not budging it now?

[pistachi0n]

the reason I haven't changed yet is that there's been no support for an EE wagon and a lone vote is useless, so right now it's doing more on SirCakez.

That didn't stop you earlier. Why is it stopping you now?

[pistachi0n]

I am noting how you stopped changing your vote when people gave you heat for it; I'm also noting how you were quick to vote EE when I pointed out it was odd that you weren't.

[pistachi0n]

I am noting how you stopped changing your vote when people gave you heat for it; I'm also noting how you were quick to vote EE when I pointed out it was odd that you weren't.

aw man, you figured me out
it wasn't just because you gave me heat, you also made a good point

It seems like a point I shouldn't have had to make, considering how you were playing earlier. I'm starting to scumread you but I'm going to wait until I see a votecount before I decide whether I'm going to vote for you or not.

[pistachi0n]

I mean, there's two ways to place your vote. You can vote your top scumread, or you can vote the one out of your scumreads who you think is most likely to be lynched. I'm still figuring out when is the appropriate time for each, and the only way I can gauge that is by others' reactions.
Out of curiosity, which do you think is stronger?

Which one? Scumread?

I'm going to vote you if you aren't at L-1. If you are, I don't want to hammer yet. That's why I'm waiting for the vote count to be posted.

[pistachi0n]

VOTE: SomethingSmart

I think we'll get information from this lynch. If SS flips town, I'm going to be looking at Titus for scum tomorrow. If SS flips scum, I'm going to pursue AI.

[pistachi0n]

I'm also suspicious of Titus.

Pedit: yep

[pistachi0n]

@Titus: I didn't say "I'm going to get you." At one point I said you were a scum read. Later on, when I voted SS, I said we could get information from this lynch and that I'd see an SS townflip as evidence for you being scum.

[pistachi0n]

"Information" lynches: the perfect excuse to vote for anyone.

This I agree with.

Pisskop's already distancing from swinging at me.

My name isn't Pisskop, also, I'm not distancing. My first post today, I said you were scummy. However, I didn't vote because at that point, nobody was expressing interest in voting anybody else, and I didn't want to contribute to a quicklynch. But now that other people have spoken up:

VOTE: Titus

[pistachi0n]

About TheCow's quicklynch--I'm going to agree with Eagle, I don't think it's likely scum would distinguish themselves so much like that.

[pistachi0n]

We wagon Viva when Titus flips town, yeah?

I would go with EE if Titus flips town. But I don't think Titus is going to flip town.

[pistachi0n]

I think Firebringer is town.

Why?

[pistachi0n]

I think Firebringer is town.

Why?

Why are you town, according to you?

Answer this question first.

I'm town because I saw my role PM.

[pistachi0n]

"Lynch me if I'm wrong" isn't alignment indicative. Its indicative of conviction which is, coupled with other factors, indicative.

It's what everyone says now, though, so it's an almost worthless tell.

[pistachi0n]

Titus--When was I reluctant to vote you? I'm voting for you now!

[pistachi0n]

When the day started.

I said it before, I wanted to avoid a quicklynch. I made it clear I was suspicious of you.

[pistachi0n]

Pistachion, can you explain why SS scum=AI scum? Also, what happened to sircakez as scum here? Is he just not in the picture at all anymore, or does this flip not reflect upon him in any way?

At the time, I was thinking that it was weird that there were two main wagons and AI was avoiding both of them. At the most recent vote count before that post, everyone was on Cakez or SS, but AI was voting Cow and that wagon wasn't going anywhere. So I was thinking there was a chance AI was scum wanting to avoid voting for a buddy. This hypothesis doesn't work anymore because SS was town.

[pistachi0n]

Yeah.
I really don't like Cerberus's weird stance on the Titus wagon and I think they could easily be scumbuddies here.
His jump from scumreading her at the beginning to 'homegirl' at the end strikes me as bizarre and straining credulity.
I also really don't like how he was the one who prompted me to start investigating Titus but when I did he 180d and completely lost interest in her wagon.

What specifically strikes me as odd about it is the use of the word "conftown" from Cerb. It seems out of character considering his philosophy about the game. It wouldn't be as odd if he had merely said Titus was a townread.

[pistachi0n]

I think it's actually possible that scum is staying off to the sidelines here and letting town players defend Titus for them.

That's true...but why would Cerb of all people be defending Titus so strongly? On Day 1 his tone about Titus was "meh, let's keep her around, she might be useful later game and she usually gets mislynched on Day 1." I mean, there's no way to know without a Titus flip.

[pistachi0n]

@people scum reading Titus, please quote three posts of hers that show scum motivation and explain the scum and motivation behind it or move on. Pistachio and Firebringer are good lynches today and the last time I read through cerb I got a bad feeling about him as well, but I might need to look into that again.

574 -- Her scumread of SS was based off of "telegraphing," which is not an automatically scummy behavior. Other things she didn't give examples of.

667 -- Confident the game is solved on Day 1.

Also the relative inactivity (compared to how she normally is) after the SS wagon was taking off.

842 -- Misrepresenting me. Possibly intentional to discredit me? I don't know, but it's a misrep.

[pistachi0n]

Also, @EE: Cerb is normally coolheaded, but it falls apart here:

Viva, I feel like you misunderstood those first two posts about Titus. The first one I asked her if her reads had changed at all since she hadn't been talking about the other two, which has nothing to do with how I read her. It's part of how I determine alignments, but I ask everyone shit like that. In the second, I make a post of me saying I have no fucking clue how I feel about how. I use a funny ASCII dude shrugging to indictate my read on her. How do you get me saying I scumread her out of that???? You're accusing me of scumread>townread, with no reasons, when it was null>townread, with fucking reasons.

[pistachi0n]

Why did you think that Cerb post was town?

[pistachi0n]

It's not so much that this game is a mindfuck game. It is just that everyone seems crazy, or scum, or with their head up their asses.

This isn't useful commentary. It's a generic statement. What's your point?

[pistachi0n]

It's not so much that this game is a mindfuck game. It is just that everyone seems crazy, or scum, or with their head up their asses.

This isn't useful commentary. It's a generic statement. What's your point?

It means that I can't get a proper read on anyone.

What makes this game different from any other? Point out specifics.

[pistachi0n]

AI, how are the things you're saying helping town at all?

[pistachi0n]

AI, how are the things you're saying helping town at all?

First of all, I don't like certain people here. I want to make that clear.

Second of all, it is better to say things that aren't necessarily helpful than to do things that are damaging town, e.g., voting Something_Smart, like you did.

You've made it clear that you don't like """certain people""" here, but you haven't made cases for them. As for doing things that aren't necessarily helpful, yes, it's better than damaging town, it still won't win the game.

[pistachi0n]

VOTE: FB

Let's move SirCakes.


@Cerb, he is. But he's not pursuing his speed wagon theory. What how would my flip impact his reads? Did he think the speed was indicative of a town push or a scum push? I followed up with him to get that out of him and he basically was just defensive. The way the conversation read to me was Pisskop saying "If you're going to suspect me for not voting you, we can fix that" rather than the tone of "hey I am trying to scumhunt here, get out of my way". His non prescence doesn't help matters.

I would tell you that I'm a she, and not named Pisskop, but I suspect you know all that already. I can't make you stop, but I'd appreciate it if you did.

I log in on Day 2, I see two people have already voted for you. I went into the day thinking you were scummy, but I didn't know if you were going to get insta-lynched or not, and I would have preferred discussion. So yes, I waited until I saw some resistance to your wagon to vote you. I've explained this before. I thought the speed was indicative of a town push.

[pistachi0n]

KAAG: Why are you asking why Droog got nightkilled?

[pistachi0n]

Do you think we can get any useful information out of the N1 kill? I'm skeptical. Scum choose to kill for all sorts of reasons. This is actually something I agree with Titus on.

[pistachi0n]

That's basically a scumclaim.
Cakez is tacitly acknowledging that my lynch is right but saying that people aren't lynching correctly because I'm annoying them.
This town refusing to lynch obvious scum is annoying me, don't see me throwing the game over it.

Pretty big reach of you to call that a scum claim.

[pistachi0n]

The problem with firebringer, though, is that theres absolutely no reason to think he's town. Basically zero effort out of the slot. If push comes to shove I'll vote for him, but I seriously don't see the scum in his play. I see bad town.

I don't think Firebringer is scum--I've played with him before, this is pretty consistent with his town play--however, this statement is odd. You see no reason to think he's town, but you also don't want to vote him, even though we don't have much time left in the day. You say later he might be bad town. How are you distinguishing scum from bad town?

[pistachi0n]

I'm still scumreading Titus.

VOTE: Titus

Likely buddies are Cerb and Cakez

[pistachi0n]

Viva--I think Titus is scum just as much as you do but you were really misrepping EE back there.

[pistachi0n]

I'm not going to vote for Cow. Also, I don't see what it's supposed to prove anyway--i expect cow to flip town.

[pistachi0n]

I'm not going to vote for Cow. Also, I don't see what it's supposed to prove anyway--i expect cow to flip town.

Why? Who else are you unwilling to vote for, why so certain about them, and who do you WANT to lynch? With the obligatory why.

I don't want to vote TheCow because the people I've seen lolhammer usually ended up as town VIs. I want to lynch Titus, you know this. I think the interaction between the two of you has been out of character, I think it's likely she's scum. Right now, Cow is the obvious mislynch.

[pistachi0n]

Titus--what is your reason for scumreading Cerb?

[pistachi0n]

@pistachion, basically he's not pushing scumreads. He's hanging back too much.

But is that different than how he acts in other games? I'm under the impression that being evasive is sort of his thing.

[pistachi0n]

@pistachion, basically he's not pushing scumreads. He's hanging back too much.

But is that different than how he acts in other games? I'm under the impression that being evasive is sort of his thing.

No. In Steven's Universe, he'd engage the thread much more. He fully can place votes. Here, he's giving the impression he doesn't care. He wasn't really voting cow for being scummy, but just for apathy. Not cool. If someone's wrong twice, there is a natural inclination to not want this person leading regardless of their alignment. The apathy cow and Cerb face is .

Right now, the fact you're bothering to get involved in the game actually suggests I could be wrong about you. I am starting to lean more Cerb cow viva/Cakez. Please engage more if you're town, more than just me.

Okay. Does he not place votes when he's scum? Does he have any completed scum games? This is important.

[pistachi0n]

He avoids votes as both alignments. He does have a scumgame or two but I am blanking on them.

He doesn't avoid the content. He's started to improve, so I am content lynching cow.

So if he's doing what he does as both alignments, why are you scumreading him based on his behavior...?

[pistachi0n]

Pistachion: Titus was the only person you mentioned wanting to lynch, I believe. You got what you wanted. Where do you stand on everything now?

I'm thinking AI now--he wasn't a friend of any of the nightkills.

[pistachi0n]

Why, Viva? Titus didn't flip the way you wanted so you're completely giving up? Even if Titus was scum, you would have had to hunt for one more.

[pistachi0n]

I'm townreading Vista because she seemed genuinely convinced Titus was scum, I don't think that's easy to fake.

[pistachi0n]

Pistachion, I seriously don't think we can take anyone off the table at this point, at least not without some serious soul searching.

Of course anybody could be scum, but that doesn't mean I can't think some are scummier than others. I think Vista is least likely to be scum.

[pistachi0n]

Pistachion, I seriously don't think we can take anyone off the table at this point, at least not without some serious soul searching.

Of course anybody could be scum, but that doesn't mean I can't think some are scummier than others. I think Vista is least likely to be scum.

Fair enough. Do you have any reason to think AI beyond NKA? Do you happen to have any recollection of exactly what suspicions the earlier NKs had with regards to AI? I feel he and Viva are least likely to be scum(though I do need to put some work in to see what makes him stand out as town in my head), so I'd like to hear why our thoughts on that slot are so different.

He's been sort of waffly all game. Like he voted Titus in 1851 and then unvoted when people said the lynch was too early. I got the feeling he was waiting to see other people's reads before posting his own so he could go with the town consensus.

[pistachi0n]

Pist, Cerb, everyone else, what are your reads on Cakez and Karnage?

Cakez likelier scum than Karnage, unlikely scum team.

[pistachi0n]

More important is why AI is your top townread.

[pistachi0n]

I'm also thinking Cerb might be scum that buddied Titus.

[pistachi0n]

What are the odds that scum buses?

It's riskier than in normal games because we can win with one scum alive.mso them sacrificing one of their own for a win might backfire.

[pistachi0n]

pistachio, which three players are scum?

Looking through Cakez ISO, I think he and AI are probable scumbuddies. I noted Cakes was always distancing from AI, only mentioning once in early game that AI had bad reads. Number 3? I'm leaning Cerb.

[pistachi0n]

Pist, what's your read on Cow & Cerb?

Cerb is scum, Cow is probably not.

[pistachi0n]

I'd lynch Cakez, he was my original scumread.

[pistachi0n]

Who

isn't

scum?

You aren't.