Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[RLotus]

VOTE: elements

[RLotus]

Lotus is that a random vote?

yeah

[RLotus]

Lotus is that a random vote?

yeah

Do you think Elements self-voting is alignment indicative in any way? Do you think Dunn's vote was random?

No and I presume yes

[RLotus]

suss on Elements but not RTP?

Townlean

Also town vibes from RTP, Duchess, and maybe Datisi

[RLotus]

So VP I’m not sure what you got or were trying to get out of the questions you asked me, but even if 58 is joking, I’m not taking a chance.

VOTE: VP Baltar

I don't like this post. His phrasing makes it seem like that is a read he is going to hold on to and I really don't like a scumread based primarily on some dumb WIFOM.

[RLotus]

Also town vibes from RTP, Duchess, and maybe Datisi

maybe?

yeah you give me maybe town vibes

[RLotus]

ok

what does maybe town mean (i.e. how is it different from town) and what's giving you those vibes

Townlean but less sure. I like the places you've been poking you feel town

[RLotus]

VOTE: Italiano

[RLotus]

I really like Andre's entrance and his way of looking at the game. The things he chooses to comment on don't feel the slightest bit agenda-driven.

Yeah I think he's town too

[RLotus]

Turns out Italiano maybe just had a bad game rather than it saying anything about elements.

They had those reads on page 1 that game, before anything even started.

Unless you're saying elements had psychic powers, something clearly pinged them

Well it sure felt like it. I can’t speak for what they actually and I doubt they’ll go into it, but I posted a couple of RVS style posts and neither of my partners had posted yet. I felt like he had the inside scoop. I did think it was awesome though.

Have you played with Duchess before?

Nah, can’t say that I have. I’m not sure where to place them yet, but if I had to say, their posts and takes have seemed townie.

but if I recall correctly there was some discussion just before that time of Italiano possibly being an easy early push, and what I saw pinged me, so I wanted to nip it in the bud.

That was a joke I mentioned to RTP, wasn't anything serious.

I gotta say I'm not at all comfortable being in the middle of this Duchess/Green Crayons thing, lol. Like yikes, I don't like what I say to be a basis to read someone else off when it wasn't my intention to do so. If this is theatre please choose something else to fight over and leave me out of it and if you're town then just drop it, it's not that serious.

@Duchess: I already said I didn't have an issue with Green's questioning. Your defense of me pings me more than anything especially this early in the game. And it all seems weird given that I was a FoS for you as posted in 90

VOTE: Duchess

Is there a reason you are so adamant about this?

And just to clarify, my Baltar vote was a reaction test vote, it wasn't really my solidified vote. That there wasn't more reaction to it, ehh I don't know how to feel about it just yet.

If you are looking for a scummy vote on the Duchess wagon this is it imo. His read of her kinda came from nowhere and that second makes it look like he was wanting to get in the middle of a TvT fight and stir shit up, rather than actually trying to evaluate the interaction.

[RLotus]

Lotus, do you have a read on Elements?

They haven't stood out as being either alignment to me yet.

[RLotus]

Lunar, I'm not sure Datisi is scum here. You want to join me on the dunnstral wagon?

I'm fairly sure he is lurking scum. Dunn is super smart, and knows how to strategic lurk (source: the last time we were scum together). I almost pushed this earlier, but felt like it would have been unfair too early in the game, so I gave him a chance to give me a reads list/impressions of the game.

He didn't do that. He also has conveniently stayed out of really any point of action in this game. Reeks of lurking scum.

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

I don't think you can really read Dunn for lurking this early, not accurately at least. I feel like from what I've seen of him that as the game goes you will be able to read his effort as he has more material.

This post does feel to come from good intentions to me though rather than scum agenda tho

[RLotus]

Town: Harumi, Andres, VP Baltar, Duchess
Weak Town: RTP, Datisi, RLotus
Null: Testarossa, Green Crayons, Elements, Dunnstral
On the Scum side of the spectrum: Italiano

What about Italiano changed for you?

[RLotus]

italiano who would you vote for if you had to vote somewhere?

I’ve reread the game

Limpool {RLotus, Lunar, Green Crayons, Baltar}

Townleaning {RTP, Andres, Duchess??)

Everyone else is pretty null

So what I did irt to the Green/Duchess interaction is I read both sides as different alignments and Duchess was the most likely town between the two. In a t/s connection I couldn’t see Duchess as scum and Green as town. It could be a t/t connection, but after rereading the interaction multiple times, I feel like Duchess was more pure than Green was, so would town . It also isn’t that likely it’s a s/s bus connection on Day 1, so...

VOTE: Green Crayons

Although I’d be okay with anyone within my limpool.

Why do you think tvs is more likely than tvt? Does your read of GC go beyond the relation between him and Duchess?

[RLotus]

I'm becoming increasingly confident that Italiano is scum

[RLotus]

I have my reads the way I do because I do, just like everyone else has their reads.

Something just seems a bit off about you Baltar, I can’t pinpoint it. Interactions and posts, etc. I can say the same thing about Lotus and Lunar. Although Midwaybear has seemed pretty townie so far.

I'm not satisfied with this whatsoever. It's not just that you're not calling anyone scum, but it's that you lack the scum hunting/town hunting effort that I see you have in the town games of yours that I've looked at. When you are town you poke and prod around, analyzing gameplay, coming to conclusions with reasoning. Even when you have gut reads you have some specific post to cite as to why. This isn't your town game.

italiano who would you vote for if you had to vote somewhere?

I’ve reread the game

Limpool {RLotus, Lunar, Green Crayons, Baltar}

Townleaning {RTP, Andres, Duchess??)

Everyone else is pretty null

So what I did irt to the Green/Duchess interaction is I read both sides as different alignments and Duchess was the most likely town between the two. In a t/s connection I couldn’t see Duchess as scum and Green as town. It could be a t/t connection, but after rereading the interaction multiple times, I feel like Duchess was more pure than Green was, so would town . It also isn’t that likely it’s a s/s bus connection on Day 1, so...

VOTE: Green Crayons

Although I’d be okay with anyone within my limpool.

I really really don't like this post, even aside from his sudden/shallow progression from Duchess scum to GC scum. You say that you are okay with an elim on anyone from your lim pool, which ok that's not scummy in itself. But, it's as if you are already giving up on trying to solve people. There are so many alignments up in the air and you yourself don't have anything solid on anyone. This is such an awkward time to settle on shooting inside your poe.

[RLotus]

Another thing. I find it strange how GC, Elements, and Italiano cooled off on Duchess seemingly simultaneously. I would get it if they had a reason to, like another wagon to jump to, or if Duchess had said something so obviously towny. To me, it would be quite unusual for town to be this coordinated. Typically, each town member have there own progression on there ideas and they shouldn't be lining up this easily. This seems to imply that there is someone being disingenuous among the three, going with the flow of town. I think there is scum inside of those three and I don't really think it's GC.

[RLotus]

their**

[RLotus]

Town
Duchess
RTP

Townlean
Datisi
GC
Andre
midway
VP Baltar

Null
Dunn
Elements
Testa
Harumi

Scum
Italiano

Decent chance I'm wrong on one of my townleans, I've got a lot.

We hit scum whenever yall are ready to vote Italiano.

[RLotus]

RTP has this utterly confident attitude like "of course I am town it would be absurd for you to question that". This is most obviously illustrated by their audacity when it comes to ignoring questions they don't feel like answering, laying these little "traps", and withholding information that they don't want to give out. This comes from a self assured town conviction, as if they don't give a shit if they do something scummy, they aren't going to be scumread because they are obviously town.

Also, they are very clearly trying to solve the game with their questioning and lines of reasoning. I'm confident that RTP is town.

[RLotus]

edit: ok, after writing this post but before submitting, i went to iso andres to see if he's talked about his elements vote, and he actually did, he saw their vote as the scummiest one on the duchess wagon. so that breaks my theory and makes me feel better on andres. false alarm, carry on with your day, everyone. /edit

Can you explain to me why you don’t think Elements is Scum here? I spent some time slowly re-reading the game, and for the life of me I can’t seem to agree with their worldview at all, and I think them putting me as Town was to appease me.

What about their world view?

[RLotus]

Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo

[RLotus]

Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo

It’s rare that I find Scum giving up D1. I’ve yet to see it on this forum. I don’t find that a “nail in the coffin” at all.

He said himself that he isn't good at scum and gets caught easily, I think the defeatism makes perfect sense for him as scum here.

[RLotus]

why testarossa town?

I read all of their posts and thought they made sense. I mean it’s early right I don’t have that much confidence that one is right. But I wasn’t particularly pinged. If anything I’m finding pushes there a bit opportunistic, and maybe that’s informing my read too.

You said you found yourself agreeing with what RTP said about testa, but RTP said their read on her was based on meta. So what exactly do you find yourself agreeing with?

[RLotus]

Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo

It’s rare that I find Scum giving up D1. I’ve yet to see it on this forum. I don’t find that a “nail in the coffin” at all.

He said himself that he isn't good at scum and gets caught easily, I think the defeatism makes perfect sense for him as scum here.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Talk to me about Elements. Because I’m seriously questioning anyone with a TR there. I don’t know - I’ve said this multiple times, I don’t know that I’m good enough to spot Scum D1 and be accurate. But I really want someone to tell me why I should TR there.

Nothing they've done really sticks out to me, nothing out of the ordinary. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a reason they are town, but they are kinda just null in my eyes.

[RLotus]

Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo

It’s rare that I find Scum giving up D1. I’ve yet to see it on this forum. I don’t find that a “nail in the coffin” at all.

He said himself that he isn't good at scum and gets caught easily, I think the defeatism makes perfect sense for him as scum here.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Talk to me about Elements. Because I’m seriously questioning anyone with a TR there. I don’t know - I’ve said this multiple times, I don’t know that I’m good enough to spot Scum D1 and be accurate. But I really want someone to tell me why I should TR there.

Nothing they've done really sticks out to me, nothing out of the ordinary. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a reason they are town, but they are kinda just null in my eyes.

Really? Because I called them Scummy, put a vote down there, and haven’t been around much (though I’ve been trying to pay attention specifically to how certain slots are interacting with each other), and they called me Towny because others said so? And why would they like my take on GC/Duchess when it directly contradicts how they reacted to interactions there (by putting a vote down on Duchess). Does that make any sense to you at all?

Tbf I'm pretty sure he said he changed his mind on Duchess before calling you town. Idk, you could be right. I don't see that as blatantly scummy.

[RLotus]

Also 351 pinged me from Lunar. I don’t agree with their view on GC and I think this is easily a post Scum could make.

It seems like most of your scum reads are based on them having reads you disagree with

[RLotus]

Hmm I suppose I don't but much weight into whether I agree or disagree with someone's reads unless the way they got to those reads is unreasonable.

[RLotus]

Also 351 pinged me from Lunar. I don’t agree with their view on GC and I think this is easily a post Scum could make.

It seems like most of your scum reads are based on them having reads you disagree with

Yeah. It’s how I tend to go about D1’s. Anybody who seems to be pushing the game in a direction I can’t follow is usually on my shit list.

Thinking about it, this probably makes you pretty easy to pocket haha

[RLotus]

Fair enough

[RLotus]

so in your mind, VD, you're a bad scum player because you were meme quick-eliminated in RVS?

Uh uh. That’s not directly correlated. To me, I’m a bad scum player because I don’t like being scum and have a hard time lying and generally get caught in some way because of it.

Interestingly that contradicts what he said in this game

[RLotus]

In post 521, RLotus wrote:
Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo

have you checked any of his scumgames for that?

Yes I found three scum games from him and none of them really work for the scenario he is currently in. One game he got elimmed in rvs, one game he was down to final 3, and one game he was confirmed scum by the tracker. He didn't have the "bite back" that I see him have in his town games, but I wouldn't really expect him to given those scenarios. He also didn't have the defeatism that he has this game, but again I wouldn't expect him to.

[RLotus]

Since we are slowly grinding to a standstill here without much original line of thought, I propose we just run Dunn to L-1 and force a claim.

Such a lazy wagon, not interested personally

[RLotus]

Since we are slowly grinding to a standstill here without much original line of thought, I propose we just run Dunn to L-1 and force a claim.

Such a lazy wagon, not interested personally

ur mom is a lazy wagon

But seriously, you don't think there is any way Italiano is town here? My gut still pings town there given he is just putting his foot in his mouth constantly

That's a fair interpretation. I see it as scum flailing. Admittedly, I am seeing red with Italiano, though it's not often I have this confidence on a scum read this early, so I really do think I'm right here. I'm willing to look like a fool if I'm wrong.

Another thing I'm noticing with Italiano is that he keeps saying things like "people are reading everything I say as scummy" and "people aren't giving me a chance", yet if I'm not mistaken I'm the only one that's really latching onto him. Most others show some kind of uncertainty about his alignment. It feels off to me, like his attitude isn't matching what is happening in the thread.

About Dunn, I find it hard to have a good read on him at this point. You call him scum for lurking even though he does it as town too, that's why I say it is lazy. I'd like to give him time to show his towniness personally. I know you said you did that in a previous game and got burned by him but yea.

[RLotus]

I know you said you did that in a previous game and got burned by him but yea.

What game was this that I 'burned' vp baltar?

I think he's confused. I was saying Dunn lurked as scum (to great effect actually) when we were scum together. People gave him a pass in that game, including for a lolhammer D1.

I'm going to accept it as truth that Dunn also lurks as town, but I do think he has sort of been a bit coy about actually engaging with this game.

Yes that's what I meant

[RLotus]

I'm willing to look like a fool if I'm wrong.

So you gonna change your name or your profile pic?

Nope

[RLotus]

What’s stopping you from eliminating me? If you’re that confident push it through.

Unfortunately I only have one vote

[RLotus]

I didn’t do that, did I? Lotus said he’s willing to look like a fool and I offered that he change his name or profile pic into something foolish. If that’s what that was then my bad, wasn’t my intention.

Oh lol I thought you were trying to make a bet also

[RLotus]

Hi BM

[RLotus]

Hi BM

hi mate, good to see ya! nice avi!

who is scum? and town?

RTP and Duchess town

Italiano is scum

nice avi yourself hahah

[RLotus]

Yeah I mean my nulls haven’t done anything to warrant movement. Harumi and testa fell off the face of the earth, dunn and elements lurks as usual.

I will say i did waiver on my andre townlean, because reading testarossa town is absurd to me, but I liked his explanation on how he goes about day 1s, felt towny.

And yeah I’m pretty much fixated on Italiano for now

[RLotus]

i can confirm testarossa was town though, so that's something

I don’t think he should have been able to deduce that from her like 3 posts

[RLotus]

Re: 451 & 452
Well, you know, it might be better to vote me out then cause it's apparent I'm not gonna be of help to the town. I've been lazy man. All that stuff I do as town, I just didn't/don't feel like doing it this game, especially on Day 1. I don't know why, I just don't. Slots have been pinging me, but I just don't really feel like going in depth with it, hoping that gutreads would be enough. I know that's bad and not helpful, however, information can still be gleaned from my flip.

Another thing is I feel like everything I do and say is getting scumread and everything I answer is not good enough , and it feels like I'm just digging my grave deeper and deeper the more I post and interact. It's part of the game so it's cool, but it's also exhausting. If/when I do get to E1, I definitely won't hammer. I'm not gonna cutoff the discussion like that. And I'm not scum, I'm just bad townie this game.

definitely feel the emotion here. happy to assume Italiano is locktown - I think Italiano-scum has more self-respect than to run this as a gambit.

RLotus - can you explain Italiano posting this as scum?

It doesn't make a lot of sense for him to do this as town. Like, why doesn't he say yeah you're right about my meta but I'm town. He's trying to explain away why he hasn't been solvy and lacks his usual town fire, while also trying to

survive

with AtE (which I've noticed you tend to be susceptible to). No backbone that I normally see from him when he's town. He's just rolling over and dying.

[RLotus]

Defeatism isn't towny. Yall are letting him off way too easily. At most that post should be NAI.

[RLotus]

The fact that the Italiano wagon hasn't built up despite the fact that it has been talked about ad nauseum might be an indicator that I'm on the right track. Alternatively, it could just be a product of the stalled gamestate.

[RLotus]

Do you townread GC btw -rllotus?

Slightly for his questioning and gamesolvyness

[RLotus]

The fact that the Italiano wagon hasn't built up despite the fact that it has been talked about ad nauseum might be an indicator that I'm on the right track. Alternatively, it could just be a product of the stalled gamestate.

i mean most of the talk is about how he's town, so would you really expect a wagon to build regardless of his alignment?

Most of the talk around him before you repped in has been things like, "I'm not really sure about him but I lean towards eliminating him"

[RLotus]

The fact that the Italiano wagon hasn't built up despite the fact that it has been talked about ad nauseum might be an indicator that I'm on the right track. Alternatively, it could just be a product of the stalled gamestate.

I think its a fact ur seeing red. Wanna walk through why you scumread them?
Being wrong is also a reason one might have a resisted wagon.

Yeah I can it will be long winded

[RLotus]

The fact that the Italiano wagon hasn't built up despite the fact that it has been talked about ad nauseum might be an indicator that I'm on the right track. Alternatively, it could just be a product of the stalled gamestate.

i mean most of the talk is about how he's town, so would you really expect a wagon to build regardless of his alignment?

Most of the talk around him before you repped in has been things like, "I'm not really sure about him but I lean towards eliminating him"

he had 3 votes on him though, which feels broadly commensurate with that level of suspicion.

My point was why are scum so shy on voting him when many are making it seem like they'd be willing to push him over, if he is town

[RLotus]

RLotus - a quicker ask - who is scum besides Italiano?

I've really got no clue past Italiano

[RLotus]

Ok I'll reread you and see, I'm pretty sure RTP and BM are town so maybe I'm just trippin

Btw, those RTP votes are super scummy

[RLotus]

In post 766, RLotus wrote:
Like, why doesn't he say yeah you're right about my meta but I'm town.
My gosh, I've said I'm town so many times and in different ways and you still scumread me, so this is just nonsense.

You really haven't. You've said things like my towniness will shine through but you've not pushed back on the pushes on you until now

[RLotus]

RLotus - a quicker ask - who is scum besides Italiano?

I've really got no clue past Italiano

And you don't think that's a problem?

Well shit you were the one throwing out a completely premature limpool

[RLotus]

Honestly I'm not feeling good about VP Baltar. It seems he is willing to jump onto any scumread thrown out there.

[RLotus]

Honestly I'm not feeling good about VP Baltar. It seems he is willing to jump onto any scumread thrown out there.

Well I based that on the way he was entertaining BM when BM was talking about me and him jumping on RTP just now. I think I recall him throwing out other names, like maybe looking for an elim

[RLotus]

Welp I was making a post to highlight what I mean but my power went out I will explain later

[RLotus]

BM’s vote on RTP I’m pretty sure wasn’t meant to be going for an elim or apart of a scum read, but rather hold them accountable for the question he asked. That’s why you and Datisi going onto that wagon looks opportunistic. I have other examples of what I mean I will show you in a bit.

[RLotus]

Welp I was making a post to highlight what I mean but my power went out I will explain later

How about just tell me why you think RTP is town when they are locktowning your only scum read?

Having a difference in reads isn’t a good basis for reading someone

[RLotus]

Welp I was making a post to highlight what I mean but my power went out I will explain later

How about just tell me why you think RTP is town when they are locktowning your only scum read?

Having a difference in reads isn’t a good basis for reading someone

It is a good reason to be suspicious of someone. Not saying you can't disagree, but on D1, the only info you have as a town person is your own alignment. If someone is the polar opposite of you, that should at least raise a question in your mind.

I've already had this convo once with andres.

I totally disagree. At least, the way I try to read people is how they come to their reads and how they’re progressing the game. Day 1 is when town should have the most varied reads

[RLotus]

jk, I don't feel confident enough to call the scum team, but I do think an old man just meme'd you, and that must hurt.

Devastating

[RLotus]

What I'm noticing with VPB is that he seems to be sitting by and looking for mis elims where he can get them, whilst being non committal to his reads (except Dunn), as if to avoid looking bad when they flip town. At first it appeared like he was scum hunting, but his recent interactions with BM made his intentions more apparent.

Bring the smoke then, a vote puts about as much pressure on me as the bottom of a puddle.

Are you usually this combative as town? Or is this game pissing you off?

You call that combative?

As a reformed toxic player, I'm sure you wouldn't understand casual combativeness.

Yeah, I think Duchess had a bit of a bad faith response to GC

Taking advantage of Duchess v GC

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

Gauging interest on IVD

Let me take a chill pill for a minute. I read your 306 Duchess. I’ll respond it to it later. Same with you @Datisi wrt 272

UNVOTE: Duchess

What if Italiano really is just scum here?

Taking advantage of mine/Datisi's push of Italiano

RTP, you still think Duchess is most likely scum here?

Can you hit me with the cliff notes case?

Taking advantage of RTP's scumread of Duchess

Italiano, can you respond specifically to this contradiction Lotus has highlighted around your own views of your scum ability?

Again with the Italiano push

Since we are slowly grinding to a standstill here without much original line of thought, I propose we just run Dunn to L-1 and force a claim.

This one is fair, since that is his main scumread.

Datisi, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on andres. (Did I ask that already?)

Gauging interest on andre

i'd do elements today if we could get a majority

I'm listening. What are you seeing?

Also is dunn at E-1 now?

Taking advantage of BM's Suspicion of elements

there is a distinct lack of progression in RLotus' ISO. Started with townreads on RTP and Duchess...and they remain the top 2 townreads. and has been only really focussed on Italiano since a few days ago.

I have been thinking this as well. It is very one dimensional.

Egging on BM's thoughts of me

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RTP

Down2Clown

Jumps on the RTP wagon, even though I don't think BM is even scumreading there (?)

As you can see, VPB is just kind of going wherever he can find a mis elim and not really where he believes scum are.

And two instances where it is apparent he is being non-committal (even though his only hard stance has been Dunn scum anyway)

In post 568, Datisi wrote:
@baltar, in your opinion, how's andres stock doing?

Stable at low levels. Not falling, but not rising either. I'm not entirely convinced these two exchanges show what I'd expect from a town mindset. On a gut level, it feels like some bullshitting explanations for stances.

My point is that your opinion on dunn doesn't logically flow.

Now, people say illogical things all the time. I certainly do. But if someone came in the thread and had Dunn listed near the top of their town reads list, you can believe I'd be suspicious of that person given how that is clashing with my viewpoint as a town member.

Do you think he could be tmi defending me here? (assume I'm town)

Sure, anything is possible. After that exchange, I don't think andres is for sure being scummy, but if I wanted to read him that way, it's certainly plausible.

Fence sitting andre

I hate that my guy says Italiano is town and every word out of his mouth is scummy.

I still want to yeet Dunn.

Fence sitting on Italiano

[RLotus]

Also I don't like that VPB's only hard stance is Dunn being scum, because he has been lurking, which is a super weak reason. Yet, every other slot he seems to be wishy washy on. Like his reasoning on Dunn is as weak as the slots that he is unsure about, so why is he being so heavy handed with Dunn??

[RLotus]

Another note. VPB and Datisi have a strange connection this game. The most obvious thing is that Datisi followed VPB both to Dunn and to RTP. I've also noticed reading through VPB a couple moments where VPB and Datisi were kind of just assuming each other's alignments, as if they already have knowledge of each other's alignments.

Idk if scum would really make it this obvious their connection to each other. I'm not going to jump to conclusions atm, but it is something interesting to note for later.

[RLotus]

Another note. VPB and Datisi have a strange connection this game. The most obvious thing is that Datisi followed VPB both to Dunn and to RTP. I've also noticed reading through VPB a couple moments where VPB and Datisi were kind of just assuming each other's alignments, as if they already have knowledge of each other's alignments.

Idk if scum would really make it this obvious their connection to each other. I'm not going to jump to conclusions atm, but it is something interesting to note for later.

Oh and they haven't really stated that they townread each other, so the explanation isn't easy as that

[RLotus]

After rereading IVD, maybe I was being unfair at a couple points. I can't say I town read him exactly, but I'll give him breathing room and keep evaluating there

UNVOTE:

[RLotus]

ok like the more i read the more i see the town meta VP- when i was scum i kinda ignored it and didnt realize it and when he was scum it was obvious to me, i think this is the first time we might have rolled town together?? Feels different here now

What about his meta makes you think he’s is town precisely? I’m looking at a few games of his and I don’t see this overtly matching his town meta.

[RLotus]

Yeah I’m feeling VPB today

VOTE: VPB

[RLotus]

ok i got to drunk and distracted - but pls dont vote VP i dont think htats scum

I think he is scum tho

[RLotus]

ok like the more i read the more i see the town meta VP- when i was scum i kinda ignored it and didnt realize it and when he was scum it was obvious to me, i think this is the first time we might have rolled town together?? Feels different here now

What about his meta makes you think he’s is town precisely? I’m looking at a few games of his and I don’t see this overtly matching his town meta.

its like - when i was town aginst scum him i could feel it. when i was scum against town him i was like - scared. but also easily able to let him get framed. i could just ignore him.

and i did cuz i felt i could just slide by him with how i plyed.

So you think his play is scary reminiscent of how you saw him as town before? Or you just don't feel it like when he was scum?

Gotta be honest I'm not getting much out of that read

[RLotus]

Why is he so willing to jump on like whoever's name gets thrown around as scum? That's not a towny mindset. He isn't coming from a solving perspective. He was willing to elim Duchess, Italiano, Andre, Elements, Dunn, me, and you thus far, based on the mood of the thread and if they can get traction.

Take his vote on you for example, RTP. What in the world compelled him to make that vote? He had not mentioned scum reading you whatsoever and actually townleaned you before and all of a sudden now that BM votes you he jumps along.

[RLotus]

His reasoning for voting you is some hot air. He saw BM vote you and decided to jump along. Vote first and explain later. He even says he here that his actions are meant to be supporting to BM, as opposed to explaining an actual reason to vote you.

Honestly I'm not feeling good about VP Baltar. It seems he is willing to jump onto any scumread thrown out there.

Well I based that on the way he was entertaining BM when BM was talking about me and him jumping on RTP just now. I think I recall him throwing out other names, like maybe looking for an elim

I am indeed looking for an elim. That's actually how this game is played. If you think I'm being inconsistent or opportunistic, which seems to be what you're saying, then please explain how that fits with me solo pushing a Dunn wagon for a good chunk of this game?

And yeah, I townread BM. I'm willing to support him.

Why do you think I'm opportunistic and not Datisi? Because I said your read on the game is one dimensional?

[RLotus]

VPB and Datisi's votes for you were so trash, there has to be scum there

[RLotus]

im just seeing more scumminess from BM for the leading vote and i think datisi/vp had bad reads sory..........

So why doesnt BM have a bad read?

[RLotus]

Why is he so willing to jump on like whoever's name gets thrown around as scum? That's not a towny mindset. He isn't coming from a solving perspective. He was willing to elim Duchess, Italiano, Andre, Elements, Dunn, me, and you thus far, based on the mood of the thread and if they can get traction.

I often do this as town simply because my vote is all I get. If I don't throw it around wildly what's the point? I don't think this is inherently scummy.

Being willing to wagon whoever whenever is blatantly scummy. Like his opinions aren't coming from his own convictions.

[RLotus]

Why is he so willing to jump on like whoever's name gets thrown around as scum? That's not a towny mindset. He isn't coming from a solving perspective. He was willing to elim Duchess, Italiano, Andre, Elements, Dunn, me, and you thus far, based on the mood of the thread and if they can get traction.

Please show me where I have voted for any of those people except for Dunn.

As far as asking people to hear their cases or saying "yeah, I think that person has been scummy too"....what do you expect? 1) I want to see other people making cases. I'm not the only one playing the game here. 2) my Dunn wagon hasn't exactly launched into orbit. I'm probably not going to get that today given people are free passing him for lurking. I have to find another wagon that I find reasonably scummy to support.

I know you've had one scum read this game, but I actually don't know who the scum are and several people have said scummy things this game. I wish I had your confidence.

You are taking advantage of the scumreads other people have rather than solving the game on your own. The easiest example to see is your absolute lack of progression of RTP. You kinda just were not talking about them then suddenly you scumread them after BM puts a vote there. Also, you looked willing to do the same with elements and myself. That's what is scummy.

[RLotus]

As far as my interactions with Datisi, I've found him increasingly town over the course of the game. Once that happens, scum is fucked there. I will town block Datisi hard and NKing is the only way out of that. We have played a reasonable number of games together, and Id like to think I know his town play reasonably well.

Yeah I can buy that like I said I'm not jumping to conclusions with that yet

After rereading IVD, maybe I was being unfair at a couple points. I can't say I town read him exactly, but I'll give him breathing room and keep evaluating there

UNVOTE:

Where specifically were you being unfair to Italiano?


Also, who has played with Lotus before? I have a question.

italiano who would you vote for if you had to vote somewhere?

I’ve reread the game

Limpool {RLotus, Lunar, Green Crayons, Baltar}

Townleaning {RTP, Andres, Duchess??)

Everyone else is pretty null

So what I did irt to the Green/Duchess interaction is I read both sides as different alignments and Duchess was the most likely town between the two. In a t/s connection I couldn’t see Duchess as scum and Green as town. It could be a t/t connection, but after rereading the interaction multiple times, I feel like Duchess was more pure than Green was, so would town . It also isn’t that likely it’s a s/s bus connection on Day 1, so...

VOTE: Green Crayons

Although I’d be okay with anyone within my limpool.

This I called him scummy for since he was already settling on a POE when so many alignments are up in the air. Reading back RTP was actually prompting him to give who he wants to elim, so that was a bit of an unfair read.

My suspicion of Italiano isn't gone to be clear. I need to keep evaluating there, a tentative scumlean you could say.

[RLotus]

Does anyone have an actual reason to townread VPB? Like other than tone and gut, and actually evaluate his play today. If you look back he really sticks out like a sore thumb.

[RLotus]

RL has also dropped in my reads

His iso being stagnant with reads the entire game, then when this is pointed out he comes back and starts being active in a way that to me seems like scum panic to put out good town stuff.

Yes panicking when obvtown #1 is trying to elim obvtown #2. Good scum tactic.

[RLotus]

I'm just having trouble seeing Elements/BM/Baltar team, but we'll have to hear from GC more. I hope GC is not purposefully avoiding thread to avoid having to answer about my scumread on them.

yeah because BM is town

[RLotus]

The easiest example to see is your absolute lack of progression of RTP.

So? I'll change my reads whenever the fuck I want. If I see you acting scummy I'll flip on you like a gator with a turkey leg on Thanksgiving. (I'm definitely not making up Florida sayings here).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RLotus

See! Did it again!

Yeah the thing is you keep trying to gauge interest that you make no mention of being scummy beforehand. And with Italiano and andre specifically, you were fence sitting them, yet you were trying to gauge interest on a wagon of them. Like wtf kind of solving are you doing???

[RLotus]

I'm just having trouble seeing Elements/BM/Baltar team, but we'll have to hear from GC more. I hope GC is not purposefully avoiding thread to avoid having to answer about my scumread on them.

yeah because BM is town

but wai

like counter the points ive made against them in how they are approaching the game.

do you think elements is scum btw?

Elements is kinda null. Idk I kinda liked his reaction to BM. I wouldn't say that's a bad wagon to push, but I have 0 confidence in it.

[RLotus]

like counter the points ive made against them in how they are approaching the game.

BM does these shitpushes constantly when he is town. If he has actual good reasoning on day 1, then he is probably scum.

[RLotus]

Why is he so willing to jump on like whoever's name gets thrown around as scum? That's not a towny mindset. He isn't coming from a solving perspective. He was willing to elim Duchess, Italiano, Andre, Elements, Dunn, me, and you thus far, based on the mood of the thread and if they can get traction.

I often do this as town simply because my vote is all I get. If I don't throw it around wildly what's the point? I don't think this is inherently scummy.

Being willing to wagon whoever whenever is blatantly scummy. Like his opinions aren't coming from his own convictions.

nah, moving the vote is more townie for me. scum scared to move their vote to ruffle feathers. depends on circumstances though

Moving votes isn't scummy. The way I see you moving around your vote, you have some kind of reasoning. And usually you do land on someone that you are fixed on. VPB entertains any option he gets to wagon on. He does not usually have reasoning. You push where you think scum are, VPB where he thinks will get traction.

Btw you are pushing a town elim

[RLotus]

I'd really like to hear from Harumi

[RLotus]

GC, who are your townreads outside of elements btw?

I get the distinct feeling ur tryna widen PoE and are taking no effort in taking a stance + narrow it down btw.

(I'm not the only one who sees this in their postings, right? like the amount of vague stuff that amounts to "this is NAI" or "this might be this" kinda stuff but no like solid conviction either way)

Do you think this is unusual for GC?

[RLotus]

BM’s vote on RTP I’m pretty sure wasn’t meant to be going for an elim or apart of a scum read, but rather hold them accountable for the question he asked. That’s why you and Datisi going onto that wagon looks opportunistic.

can you explain this more because wouldn't BM's lead onto RTP be fickle and so the opportunity would vanish once RTP answered the Q?

i thought the quick one-two RTP votes seemed weird on first pass, but looking at them i don't see anything weird with them themselves, so figured it's just because we don't have a bunch of vote hops/wagons happening yet in this game

On the first half, yeah I understand what you're saying, that's a good point. My interpretation was VPB misinterpreted BM's vote and got antsy wanting to get a wagon going.

I still don't like VPB's vote there, because it seems to be a repeating pattern in how he has been playing. Feeling around for a wagon rather than making a solving effort.

Datisi does have precedence to be voting there looking at his interactions with RTP. I do still find it strange how he followed VPB to RTP and doing the same thing before following VPB onto Dunn.

[RLotus]

Vote VPB whenever you feel like voting for scum

[RLotus]

So the most damning thing in Duchess' accusation of VPB, the fence sitting that VPB has been doing in the GC/Duchess/Italiano debacle, VPB decides not to respond to (because it's true), but instead decides to combat the semantic/inconsequential arguments.

[RLotus]

Elements vote there looks pretty terrible. Although it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to do it to his partner, so if VPB does flip red, some slight town points to Elements. Same for VPB if Elements flips red.

The two main wagons are starting to look pretty bad to me

[RLotus]

In post 990, RLotus wrote:
I'd really like to hear from Harumi

this feels... kinda random? like harumi hasn't picked up their prod i'm p sure. anything prompt this?

Because there were like 6 or main people talking and we're not going to be able to find all the scum like that, and Harumi kinda just went quiet.

In post 1023, RLotus wrote:
Datisi does have precedence to be voting there looking at his interactions with RTP. I do still find it strange how he followed VPB to RTP and doing the same thing before following VPB onto Dunn.

"strange" is a meaningless word here. do you conclude anything from it?

It is abnormal/out of the ordinary. I'm unsure about your alignment thus far, so no conclusions no

[RLotus]

I'm actually enjoying people jumping on me because there are absolutely scum making bad life choices in this mix.

I disagree so much. Why are scum taking such a hard route as opposed to just jump on RTP or Elements when that would be so much safer. Like you are a highly townread slot and my push on you already has shown to have a lot of resistance.

[RLotus]

I'm actually enjoying people jumping on me because there are absolutely scum making bad life choices in this mix.

I disagree so much. Why are scum taking such a hard route as opposed to just jump on RTP or Elements when that would be so much safer. Like you are a highly townread slot and my push on you already has shown to have a lot of resistance.

Because it is stupid and bad faith. It hasn't met resistance so much as you're making terrible points that you're trying to take out of context. Anyone can go read the stuff you're pointing to and see how much of a misrepresentation it is.

Multiple people calling you town is indeed resistance. It's like you're not even trying to evaluate the people pushing on you, but instead calling them scum with blanket terms like bad faith.

I'm not surprised as you haven't been trying to solve anyone this game. It's funny that you call my logic stupid
when it is indeed true that you haven't been trying to solve and mainly riding the fence.

It is also rich that you call my logic stupid when your two top scumreads are 1. OMGUSing me, with terrible reasoning(bad faith blahblahblah) 2. Dunn for lurking, even though you've been repeatedly told that he lurks as both alignments. But, you keep Dunn as one of your top scum you can't get it through your head it seems.

[RLotus]

I'm actually enjoying people jumping on me because there are absolutely scum making bad life choices in this mix.

I disagree so much. Why are scum taking such a hard route as opposed to just jump on RTP or Elements when that would be so much safer. Like you are a highly townread slot and my push on you already has shown to have a lot of resistance.

you know the only reason my slot was eliminated last game was because of a mason who was mad i FOSed 2 masons and accidentally townread a mafia but still came around at the end right? im not an easy elimination or safe.

Well you are getting called scum this game so why doesn't Elements go on your wagon instead of VPB who was only getting pushed by me. And why doesn't Duchess go on Elements for the same reason

[RLotus]

Unless it's Duchess + Elements

[RLotus]

In post 869, RLotus wrote:
What I'm noticing with VPB is that he seems to be sitting by and looking for mis elims where he can get them, whilst being non committal to his reads (except Dunn), as if to avoid looking bad when they flip town.

There are certainly a couple of posts that are gauging interest on different players (not all of them, i'm not sure why you grouped some of these posts with others), but isn't your theory scum AI only if all of those players are actually town? So I'm not sure how you get that point at this stage.

Umm I suppose he could throw one of his partners in there as well. The behavior looks bad + his lack of solving effort. I'm not necessarily trying to put the whole puzzle together at this point, as it were.

[RLotus]

Why is that taking advantage you ask? I don't know. I made a comment on what I saw taking place. Duchess has been an absolute shit to me as well recently, so clearly I wasn't just making this up out of thin air, but rather pointing out a pattern of behavior. In said shitfest from Duchess, there is a post where I point out that faked aggression can come from scum who mistake bravado for scum hunting.

It's not that specific action that is so blatantly taking advantage. In fact, I was leaning you town for interactions like this. But, when this is a repeating pattern of you pushing slots that are easy to push and are already under fire, it looks opportunistic. Well when I say push I mean sitting on the sideline throwing shade, egging it on, without ever really coming to a conclusion.

He says I'm "gauging interest" on IVD here. Cool story, except I was clearly asking andres for a reason: Understanding his thoughts and positions on the key topic of the game at that point: Duchess v. GC

The follow up posts ARE LITERALLY RIGHT THERE IF YOU DON'T CHERRY PICK:

Hm yeah I probably misread the context here, I can buy that it was apart of a conversation and not trying to push IVD.

Like, duh. do you understand anything about using rhetoric? I'm directly jabbing at Italiano there. Am I not allowed to find a response by Italiano to be scummy because I'm not working the wagon as my primary source? This is nonsense.

He even says me pressuring Italiano is scummy in this post!

In post 546, VP Baltar wrote:
Italiano, can you respond specifically to this contradiction Lotus has highlighted around your own views of your scum ability?


It's fair to say I'm not pursuing Italiano as my main at that point, but I'm assisting in pressure to a what I saw as a good point. If Lotus really believes Italiano is scum (as he tunneled all game), this point is nonsensical. Particularly when I don't see him scouring pages for every time someone applies pressure to a wagon they are not actively on. Again, this is cherry picking. It also selectively ignores posts like 417 and 430 and 436 and etc where I'm actively pushing on Italiano on my own.

This isn't hard to fact check. I went to my ISO and ctrl+f'ed "Italiano". I actually talk about him a decent amount.

Again, it's not poking IVD that is scummy in itself, it is that you are throwing shade at a slot that was under fire and never really coming to a conclusion. As if to egg it on.

[RLotus]

his lack of solving effort.

Dude, I have posted a full reads list that is very clear and I've done far more to advance the game than you have. That's indisputable.

Meanwhile, I bring you live coverage of RLotus' game prior to trying to walk out some fabricated BS on me:

Scum
Italiano

Yes you posted a reads list after I criticized you for not trying to solve the game, and I believe being prompted by someone else to make one.

Also, I don't want this to get too emotionally charged, but it's either disingenuous or an oversight on your part to summarize my gameplay with a simple post where I put Italiano as a scum read. You must have missed the several detailed accusations I made of him and held my conviction on him and kept generating content around that slot. Furthermore, I made a post about a strong townread I had, RTP, with detailed reasoning. And, obviously my push on you.

Now, for the reads that you have shown the most conviction on.

Dunn- Scum because he is lurking
RLotus- scum because he is bad faith pushing on me

Shallow.

[RLotus]

Meh. I need to move my vote.

I’ll sit here for now.

VOTE: RLotus

Have you finished catching up?

[RLotus]

You are taking advantage of the scumreads other people have rather than solving the game on your own. The easiest example to see is your absolute lack of progression of RTP. You kinda just were not talking about them then suddenly you scumread them after BM puts a vote there. Also, you looked willing to do the same with elements and myself. That's what is scummy.

I'm curious: did you have problems with Baltar's play before his RTP vote, and that was the last straw and so you laid out this case against Baltar, or did his RTP vote bother you so you went to go back and look to see if there was something suspicious about his play, and that's when you saw these problems that led to your long post?

Initially, I read these side questions/him pushing people from the side as towny. It wasn't until his interactions with BM did I realize that he kept poking at slots without trying to solve them.

i'd do elements today if we could get a majority

I'm listening. What are you seeing?

Also is dunn at E-1 now?

there is a distinct lack of progression in RLotus' ISO. Started with townreads on RTP and Duchess...and they remain the top 2 townreads. and has been only really focussed on Italiano since a few days ago.

I have been thinking this as well. It is very one dimensional.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RTP

Down2Clown

This series of posts in particular

[RLotus]

Meh. I need to move my vote.

I’ll sit here for now.

VOTE: RLotus

Have you finished catching up?

Not completely. But VPB sounds like Town to me, and your push there seems bad (around 869). If you flip Scum I would flip RTP too actually. You guys seemed overly aligned there for a bit. If VPB is onto something, he’s being sidelined in a rather aggressive way.

Hum well I guess it would be natural for you to have paranoia about me bussing now

[RLotus]

Meh. I need to move my vote.

I’ll sit here for now.

VOTE: RLotus

Have you finished catching up?

Not completely. But VPB sounds like Town to me, and your push there seems bad (around 869). If you flip Scum I would flip RTP too actually. You guys seemed overly aligned there for a bit. If VPB is onto something, he’s being sidelined in a rather aggressive way.

Hum well I guess it would be natural for you to have paranoia about me bussing now

Oh I misread RTP as VPB

[RLotus]

Italiano's low activity is concerning even after the pressure was let off him

[RLotus]

i was hesitant on RL bc of the change in style from last game but as I understand it it looks like their agenda there was to deepwolf and didnt care about bussing partners for towncred then - this could very well be a different RL here?

what do you think of GC @andres.

That's a huge style change if you really believe that, I'll you now that I'm far out of my scum range

[RLotus]

i was hesitant on RL bc of the change in style from last game but as I understand it it looks like their agenda there was to deepwolf and didnt care about bussing partners for towncred then - this could very well be a different RL here?

what do you think of GC @andres.

That's a huge style change if you really believe that, I'll you now that I'm far out of my scum range

wanna link your 2-3 most recent scumgames that isnt baby animals?

That was my first one, so I guess you can't confirm this, but I suck at faking conviction when I'm scum. That is why I am so cautious as scum and reckless as town.

[RLotus]

you've never played on other sites? like this is your first time venturing into mafia?

Yea

[RLotus]

Reformed Toxic Player (3): Battle Mage, VP Baltar, Datisi

Yeah like both Datisi and VPB aren’t voting for you RTP as Scum Partners. Like no way.

Why they are both very town read

[RLotus]

Not saying it can’t happen btw. But if they’re both not feeling pressure, they would avoid linking themselves together in the early game is my feeling. Unless they both want to power wolf (and that’s exhausting), I think it’s totally reasonable to assume they’re at least not Partners.

Hm that is a good point.

[RLotus]

I'm not following.

I think more often than not you would not as Town look at three players voting you early in Day 1 and place all three in the POE, particularly when they’re all active and explaining themselves. There’s no chance in hell I would ever assume myself (unless I was some sort of genius and I’m not) that they’re all Scum or that they all deserve to be in the POE. The fact that you immediately went against one of those reads is confirmation enough that after you saw the votes, you realized just how unrealistic that position was.

On 786 RTP mentioned the stuff about his POE, and it looks like his scumread of BM started formulating on 787. The wagon on RTP didn't start until 799.

So, I don't really like this logic. In fact, it looks like the wagon on RTP could have built up in reaction to RTP's POE read.

[RLotus]

I was basically saying - look: there's probably scum on this wagon if my read is wrong on this initial 3.

Well that's just not true

[RLotus]

On 786 RTP mentioned the stuff about his POE, and it looks like his scumread of BM started formulating on 787. The wagon on RTP didn't start until 799.

Is your theory that the entire Scum Team saw themselves placed on a POE by Koba and they all coordinated votes back to back onto them? Because I’ve seen some blatant Scum play in my day but this would absolutely take the cake.

I didn't say they all were scum. But, maybe say scum VTB sees RTP's read of him is shifting against his favor and join BM on his vote. I'm just saying that it possible not that it necessarily did happen.

Regardless, RTP didn't see 3 people on their wagon and decide to POE them

[RLotus]

I think more often than not you would not as Town look at three players voting you early in Day 1 and place all three in the POE, particularly when they’re all active and explaining themselves.

That is what you are saying here no?

[RLotus]

I'm just saying I don't think the POE had anything to do with the votes on them. Why he changed his read on VPB, I don't know.

[RLotus]

I'm just saying I don't think the POE had anything to do with the votes on them. Why he changed his read on VPB, I don't know.

Okay but you’re fighting an argument I’m not making. I said those slots were skeptical of Koba. Not that the POE came about because they were voting Koba.

Ok that's fair enough

[RLotus]

I don’t think RLotus has demonstrated that at all to be totally honest. And what does being new have to do with anything? Some players can play Scum decently well. RLotus did a good job fooling people last game we played. They completely avoided being suspected aggressively and bussed effectively.

I didn't have nearly the aggression that game that I do this game, in fact my pushes were very soft, if you want to believe my self meta.

And my push on VPB makes no sense as scum. Just tunnel on a highly town read player, when I myself am quite town read. To tank my town cred even though it's unlikely for a VPB wagon to actually go through?

[RLotus]

This I called him scummy for since he was already settling on a POE when so many alignments are up in the air.

How in the world can you post this and not criticize RTP/Koba for it and defend them now? I’m so confused.

Koba had strong convictions on Elements and GC when he made that POE post, and continued progressing his reads.

Italiano had no strong convictions and it appeared like he was just settling for a POE. I believe I even said it's not a scummy thing to do in itself, but in the context Italiano it was scummy.

[RLotus]

I didn't have nearly the aggression that game that I do this game, in fact my pushes were very soft, if you want to believe my self meta.

You agree that different games call for different approaches yeah? If you played exactly the same as Scum every time, you would make for a really poor Scum player. And from what I can gather, you don’t seem like a bad Mafia player at all to me.

Like I said if you want to believe my self meta, but I am quite inexperienced as scum to emulate my town game

[RLotus]

vp/GC

VP + GC is something I considered because of the way GC was trying to cool me off of VP. If VP is town, I think it is highly likely that GC is town.

Andre I'm having a hard time pinning down a read on. His reasoning is really good and when I argue with him he usually says something that really makes sense. Maybe he can do this as scum. I do think he on the wrong side of town tho. Well I know he is wrong in voting me. Overall, not sure.

[RLotus]

u know everytime i roll town i feel this enormous pressure to go 3/3 day 1 and it sucks

Same kinda. I really hate missing on day 1 mainly because it feels like we will fall too behind

[RLotus]

Vote VPB whenever you feel like voting for scum

You tried this on me and you were/are wrong there. I’m thinking you’re wrong here as well.

That's a pretty shallow reason to think I'm wrong. But you're right it wouldn't be the first time I am wrong when I am hard pushing someone.

[RLotus]

Italiano, I got the impression you were scumreading VP earlier or were suspicious of him at least. What changed for you?

[RLotus]

Why is town so allergic to flipping red on day 1

[RLotus]

you can join me on koba if you want

Why is town so allergic to flipping red on day 1

[RLotus]

VPB

- Makes pushes with no conclusion. Not attempting to solve the game. Extremely shallow/surface level reads on myself and Dunn.
Green Crayons - I don't have a big case on him. Potentially whit knighted Elements and VPB if he is town. RTP seems confident.
Harumi- Absent
midwaybear- kinda just nullish

[RLotus]

VPB has the best chance of flipping scum

GC I'm not confident but it should give ok information

[RLotus]

Dunn is kinda sorta ok too. I just hate it bc they will become super town with a VPB red flip

[RLotus]

did i hallucinate the discussion i had with baltar yesterday about duchess or

He lacks the same critical evaluation of Duchess' alignment the same way he does to me.

[RLotus]

VPB

- Makes pushes with no conclusion. Not attempting to solve the game. Extremely shallow/surface level reads on myself and Dunn.
Green Crayons - I don't have a big case on him. Potentially whit knighted Elements and VPB if he is town. RTP seems confident.
Harumi- Absent
midwaybear- kinda just nullish

sorry mate but none of this is particularly compelling. 4 scumreads, 2 of which are "absent" and "null". Although I'd say that's marginally better than "RTP seems confident".

VPB is an interesting take, but not for me today.

can we plz get a

votecount?

Ok well I've become accustomed to you tunenling town day 1 every game, have at it dude

[RLotus]

If it's me today I'm gonna need some time to respond to VPB's recent posts and make a fleshed out reads list, if you'd be so kind

[RLotus]

VPB

- Makes pushes with no conclusion. Not attempting to solve the game. Extremely shallow/surface level reads on myself and Dunn.
Green Crayons - I don't have a big case on him. Potentially whit knighted Elements and VPB if he is town. RTP seems confident.
Harumi- Absent
midwaybear- kinda just nullish

sorry mate but none of this is particularly compelling. 4 scumreads, 2 of which are "absent" and "null". Although I'd say that's marginally better than "RTP seems confident".

VPB is an interesting take, but not for me today.

can we plz get a

votecount?

Ok well I've become accustomed to you tunenling town day 1 every game, have at it dude

unnecessary shade, given im not even close to tunnelling anyone dude - the point of me asking for your case, was literally to help me decide who to vote for.

You didn't have anything, and now you're shading me.

Better than any case that anyone has said about me yet you seem fine with an elim on me anyway

[RLotus]

i'm scumleaning you, as i said earlier - not much reads progression at all.

That's not even true anymore

[RLotus]

i'm scumleaning you, as i said earlier - not much reads progression at all.

That's not even true anymore

so you're saying you changed it up after you got called out?

If there are any instances where my read progression feels unnatural let me know. I doubt you've done that kind of analysis

[RLotus]

Well it's apparent VPB is dying today
VOTE: GC

[RLotus]

BM isn't interested in progressing their own read because it would require them to admit they were wrong and humility isn't their thing.

i'll only say this once dude - i'm not gonna respond to any posts which i personally consider disrespectful or discourteous (notwithstanding, completely inaccurate). Your attempts at baiting me are pointless - if you need to let off some negative steam, please keep it out of the game as it isn't fun for anybody. thanks!

My apologies. I am quite annoyed with how this game is going if it isn't obvious.

Do you find any of my read progressions unnatural that I can clarify you? Because I believe you reason for scumleaning me is flawed and obviously know it is wrong.

[RLotus]

BM isn't interested in progressing their own read because it would require them to admit they were wrong and humility isn't their thing.

i'll only say this once dude - i'm not gonna respond to any posts which i personally consider disrespectful or discourteous (notwithstanding, completely inaccurate). Your attempts at baiting me are pointless - if you need to let off some negative steam, please keep it out of the game as it isn't fun for anybody. thanks!

My apologies. I am quite annoyed with how this game is going if it isn't obvious.

Do you find any of my read progressions unnatural that I can clarify you? Because I believe you reason for scumleaning me is flawed and obviously know it is wrong.

all good brother. i'm just feeling quite ambivalent about it all. i've said we can do someone else other than you.

Who are you looking at other than myself and RTP?

[RLotus]

zzzz

[RLotus]

How many times do I have to say RTP is town town town town town, these guys are relentless

[RLotus]

i do solemnly swear that if we elim RTP today, I will be a good and productive and devoted townie tomorrow (as I won't be dodging RTP's snark in the thread)

and if we don't elim RTP today, I will be a total grump.

i have a scummy feeling about midway btw, but that's one for later

but please never ever play with me again. these kinds of unwarranted lines are unnecessary if you're not going to cite anything to back it up.

your play right now consists of hardfocusing my slot and waving off any sort of criticism of your read with "haha idc they're being mean to me anyways so i'll be lazy and keep my vote here"


you're not even concerned about being wrong. you're just straight grudge tunneling me like you fucking do in all your games towards ppl on d1. you've been on this site since 2007 - how can you ingrain such habits and not like realize that MAYBE you're doing something wrong????????

lol dude you're just being a jerk to me for no reason, what did you expect? I guess you thought you could get away with it because you have a low opinion of me - although I don't know why you have a low opinion of me, given you have barely any experience with me and don't really know me at all.

my advice to you, in recognition of my 2007 join-date as you brought it up, would be that behaving in a way that you know is toxic is likely to make players want to policy elim you - and that's where you are now with me - which is bad for your own wincon and bad for the game as a whole. I'd much rather just play the game with people who wanna play the game, rather than with somebody who is more interested in making personal digs. You are a minority of 1 in this game - everyone else is being perfectly nice.

Dont worry, I'm not going to blacklist you from games or anything like that - I'm a believer in people learning from their mistakes, and hopefully this is instructive for you. You were perfectly fine in our last game together, so I don't really know what's gotten into you here.

Are you simply unwilling to see him as town at this point?

[RLotus]

My apologies the T1 avi trips me up haha

[RLotus]

i do solemnly swear that if we elim RTP today, I will be a good and productive and devoted townie tomorrow (as I won't be dodging RTP's snark in the thread)

and if we don't elim RTP today, I will be a total grump.

i have a scummy feeling about midway btw, but that's one for later

but please never ever play with me again. these kinds of unwarranted lines are unnecessary if you're not going to cite anything to back it up.

your play right now consists of hardfocusing my slot and waving off any sort of criticism of your read with "haha idc they're being mean to me anyways so i'll be lazy and keep my vote here"


you're not even concerned about being wrong. you're just straight grudge tunneling me like you fucking do in all your games towards ppl on d1. you've been on this site since 2007 - how can you ingrain such habits and not like realize that MAYBE you're doing something wrong????????

lol dude you're just being a jerk to me for no reason, what did you expect? I guess you thought you could get away with it because you have a low opinion of me - although I don't know why you have a low opinion of me, given you have barely any experience with me and don't really know me at all.

my advice to you, in recognition of my 2007 join-date as you brought it up, would be that behaving in a way that you know is toxic is likely to make players want to policy elim you - and that's where you are now with me - which is bad for your own wincon and bad for the game as a whole. I'd much rather just play the game with people who wanna play the game, rather than with somebody who is more interested in making personal digs. You are a minority of 1 in this game - everyone else is being perfectly nice.

Dont worry, I'm not going to blacklist you from games or anything like that - I'm a believer in people learning from their mistakes, and hopefully this is instructive for you. You were perfectly fine in our last game together, so I don't really know what's gotten into you here.

Are you simply unwilling to see him as town at this point?

Not as such - I'm mostly being pragmatic that we need to elim someone like yesterday, and I'm picking RTP. It's possible they're town, but I don't have a particular stronger scumread, and it's partly driven by a selfish interest for a more chilled game.

That is quite unfortunate because they are a ride or die town for me at this point. I wish my towns would stop fighting.

[RLotus]

VOTE: VPB

[RLotus]

You know after taking a step back I think I'm starting to change my mind on VPB lol. Mainly because when I think about the game with him as town it seems to make a lot more sense.

I think I've pissed off VPB at this point so I'll apologize. My gameplay does tend to be quite passionate and erratic at times. However, I do think VPB appeared very scummy up until the point I started tunneling him. After that, on read back, his evaluation does seem genuine. I admit that I was being dismissive of it because of the way he was responding to me. His responses I still don't like because he was trying discredit me rather than arguing with my points (which I still think were fair). But, I can see where his frustration came from with two people tunneling him with walls.

Anyhow, I think the game is very easy with him as town. A townblock of {Me, BM, RTP, VPB, Datisi, Duchess, GC} probably just wins the game.

I really think the people that pushed on VPB should be townread, at least Duchess and I. Trying to come after a highly town read slot is a death sentence for scum. It doesn't make sense for us to do that. At least that's why I town read Duchess.

Elements is a bit different. While it was a silly play for him as scum to try to push VPB, he completely flaked so hard to give him credit. Perhaps he got shy after seeing there is no way VPB is going through. Dunno, this is a fine elim for today.

GC is towny for trying to make peace between VPB and I, as opposed to taking advantage of the super free dichotomy between us.

Which brings me to Andre who was seemingly trying to take advantage of town's division. His stubbornness when chatting with RTP and I gave me a bad initial vibe. It seems like he is deadset on scumreading the two of us rather than even entertaining that we are town. Some people just do this (me at times), but the impression I got from him in the last game I played with him is he spends a lot of time weighing both scenarios. Another thing is I get the impression that he pops in, does his due diligence to stay soemwhat townread, and dips out. As if he is maintaining his image rather than trying to solve the game.

Midwaybear doesn't have a lot interactions to read from. I do find the elims that he said he is ok with scummy.

Why is RLotus being wagoned? Looking at the votecount, I could vote GC, Italiano, and RLotus if people sell me on it.
I think RTP has been quite townie this game, and, again, I don't know if "oppurtunisitc" means scum VPB.

This looks quite bad through the lens of the town block that I proposed. GC, Italiano, and myself are easy/opportunistic scum reads to make. All of us have been in fights and have some heat one way or the other.

Andre and midway are my favorite kills. Elements is next best. Italiano, Dunn, Harumi are meh but ok.

Not entirely confident in the scum reads. The town reads I do feel pretty good about, the game looks clearer.

[RLotus]

TL;DR On re evaluation Andre + midway + 1

[RLotus]

VOTE: Elements

[RLotus]

my pronouns are they/them

My bad

[RLotus]

Andre and midway are my favorite kills. Elements is next best. Italiano, Dunn, Harumi are meh but ok.

I mentioned Harumi/maxi here, but yeah they've been pretty much ghost

[RLotus]

so why did you not vote for either of your favorite kill options?

Trying to compromise at this point

[RLotus]

Why do you have maxwell at the bottom?

[RLotus]

So you had Harumi at the bottom in your last read list, checks out

[RLotus]

what changed for you when you went from saying basically nothing to suddenly say a lot?

Needed to step away a bit. I've been in the trenches all game.

[RLotus]

When I get into 1v1s and eventually find the other person town, I usually look for people being opportunistic because 1v1s are an easy spot to get a mislim. Andre was the most apparently doing that to me. How I would describe their stance of me is not confident in me being scum, yet sturdy in their position. Also, I guess I just have a bad vibe on him.

I echo the sentiment about not really being confident in my scum. I mean everyone outside of my townreads don't have a lot of content or interactions to draw reads from. Normally I want more meat in my reads to have confidence, but at this point it is kinda just rolling the dice shooting into my POE.

I will say having everyone that has been majorly active as town gives me some doubt. BM I have the least reason to townread. I don't really feel it though.

[RLotus]

BM, why do you want to hold off on midwaybear but have a bad feeling about them?

[RLotus]

I'm going by memory but I recall you saying something to that effect. I'd also be alright with midwaybear

[RLotus]

I'm basically not reading a lot from the last few pages.

Lotus, tell me more about why you think andres was taking advantage of our fight instead of just expressing his genuine opinion?

The way he gave his read of me made it seems like he was unsure about scum reading me, yet when questioned about it he stayed sturdy in his stance rather than entertaining the opposite. It made it seem like he was holding on to the read for agenda purposes rather than genuinely evaluating.

It's a combination of not thoroughly fleshed out reasoning and a gut feeling. I'm not entirely confident about this.

The more I've thought about though it may not be a good idea to go for him just now because I trust in his ability to project town, so it may be smarter to give him to time to develop.

[RLotus]

Btw I really do think Lotus is just Scum here.

Could you explain why?

Also, how has your read of RTP progressed?

[RLotus]

But a few things - they’ve exhibited genuine attempts at pursuing particular slots with no regard for how they come across (I can think of a few dogged fights with Battle Mage / Green Crayons / VPB / Datisi / Italiano just from the top of my head),

Why doesn't this apply to me also?

Btw I really do think Lotus is just Scum here.

And, why only a slight scum lean if you think this?

[RLotus]

How in the world have I tunneled you lol

[RLotus]

How in the world have I tunneled you lol

After everything I’ve posted, this is what you’re going to say? It’s like you’re just trying to be dismissive.

No I'm asking how I have tunneled. Virtually every time mentioning you I express doubt that you are actually scum and I could be wrong, and haven't been focused on you.

Why doesn't this apply to me also?

You’ve been somewhat tunnely from what I can recall (Italiano, VPB, Me). It doesn’t help that I think all of those are wrong.

You also didn't actually answer the question I asked

Idk why you are acting this way

[RLotus]

In post 1535, Andresvmb wrote:
But a few things - they’ve exhibited genuine attempts at pursuing particular slots with no regard for how they come across (I can think of a few dogged fights with Battle Mage / Green Crayons / VPB / Datisi / Italiano just from the top of my head),

Why doesn't this apply to me also?

I guess you aren't interested in answering this or?

Anyway, I did like Andre's evaluation of the game. Like I said before when he speaks he brings up good, thoughtful points.

[RLotus]

Andre, the way you are leaning onto me is exactly what I meant earlier. You say:

Because I would never be arrogant enough to assume that D1 my reads are golden. I don’t know how many times I need to say that I’m really uncertain in general. So why would I put anyone here as a strong read in either direction?

But the way you are pushing onto me seems like you aren't giving me a fair shake, like you

are

confident. This is why it feels bad to me, like you are pushing me for an agenda reason rather than actually trying to evaluate me. Why don't you express deliberation if you aren't sure, rather than attacking everything I post at you?

[RLotus]

Which brings me to Andre who was seemingly trying to take advantage of town's division. His stubbornness when chatting with RTP and I gave me a bad initial vibe. It seems like he is deadset on scumreading the two of us rather than even entertaining that we are town. Some people just do this (me at times), but the impression I got from him in the last game I played with him is he spends a lot of time weighing both scenarios. Another thing is I get the impression that he pops in, does his due diligence to stay soemwhat townread, and dips out. As if he is maintaining his image rather than trying to solve the game.

Just, no. How am I trying to take advantage of Town’s division? This is a complete nonsense argument. I have NOT been stubborn about RTP. I think you’re purposefully attaching yourself to RTP here, since they’re always going to attract more attention than you and are far more likely to piss other players off. But I have been very much oscillating on my read on RTP and that is completely obvious. Like what a horrendous way of portraying my play.

In the conversation about RTP before you were indeed being stubborn about them. Recently yeah you've flipped so that read is void now

[RLotus]

But the way you are pushing onto me seems like you aren't giving me a fair shake, like you are confident. This is why it feels bad to me, like you are pushing me for an agenda reason rather than actually trying to evaluate me. Why don't you express deliberation if you aren't sure, rather than attacking everything I post at you?

I have disagreed with basically every major action and push you’ve made this game. And I’ve explained why. I really don’t care how you feel about my slot or if it makes you think I have an agenda. It is what it is. I have a whole view of the game, and you make a decent amount of sense to me as Scum. I don’t know if it’s exactly you, but I don’t really know what else to do.

So, your scum read of me boils down to disagreeing with my actions this game. Namely, my push on Italiano and then VPB, which you read them both town or not scum at least. Is that a fair summarization?

[RLotus]

But the way you are pushing onto me seems like you aren't giving me a fair shake, like you are confident. This is why it feels bad to me, like you are pushing me for an agenda reason rather than actually trying to evaluate me. Why don't you express deliberation if you aren't sure, rather than attacking everything I post at you?

I have disagreed with basically every major action and push you’ve made this game. And I’ve explained why. I really don’t care how you feel about my slot or if it makes you think I have an agenda. It is what it is. I have a whole view of the game, and you make a decent amount of sense to me as Scum. I don’t know if it’s exactly you, but I don’t really know what else to do.

So, your scum read of me boils down to disagreeing with my actions this game. Namely, my push on Italiano and then VPB, which you read them both town or not scum at least. Is that a fair summarization?

Somewhat. I think your arguments against VPB for example were bad (VPB went through them in detail and generally speaking I agree - you stated multiple times that they weren’t trying to solve for example which just rang like a generality and false), and your tunnel of Italiano (which you admitted but more recently seem to have backed off somewhat) just didn’t feel right to me. And since I’m TR’ing Elements and I know my alignment, I can’t say I think you’re Town.

First, I will say I do think VPB was indeed not trying to solve the game up until a point sometime after I made that read of him. Later it became apparent that he was trying to figure people out, put the game together. Admittedly, I was too locked in on him to notice. I don't know if you are fully caught up but I did say this.

Anyhow, I'm going to be blunt with you. I know on day 1 I am certainly not batting 100 at finding scum. Every read of mine will not be correct. You said the same thing about yourself. I do not think that scum reading people because they have reads you disagree with and scum read people you find town is an effective strategy at finding scum.

I know we had a brief discussion about this before, but I highlight this because I do not think we are going to find a middle ground because of this difference in opinion.

[RLotus]

First, I will say I do think VPB was indeed not trying to solve the game up until a point sometime after I made that read of him.

Eh, I should clarify and say he did not appear to be solving the game.

[RLotus]

I do not think that scum reading people because they have reads you disagree with and scum read people you find town is an effective strategy at finding scum.

Sure. But this is (again) mischaracterizing how I’m approaching the game. And you’re doing this a lot, frankly. I guess that’s the biggest reason I find you Scummy. You did this with VPB, you’ve done it to me, and you’ve done it with Italiano too. I am quite obviously trying to read through emotion as well (I’ve made multiple statements around this, and it’s obviously impacting my reads of Italiano and RTP), what I’m perceiving as sensible, honest arguments (I made this point about maxwell, I feel this way in a lot of instances when I’m reading Battle Mage, and I sense it coming from some of the discussions I’ve read from Elements and Datisi for instance), and I’m trying to make sense of positioning (which I’m noticing from you and actually, Green Crayons). If I was going to compromise anywhere, it would be there actually - I would vote for Green Crayons here too.

It's not meant to be a mischaracterization of what you are doing, I didn't say that is all you are doing. However, you do keep bringing up things like you don't agree with my push or I scum read your town read as reasons to why I am scum. I don't think this an effective way to read me.

If you find my interpretation of your play or other's play to be mischaracterizations in an opportunistic way or some such, then fine. I can't hate your rationale. I still stand by some of the logic I had at the time.

[RLotus]

Either Elements is just scum or one or two scum are already on Elements right?

I fail to see why it is so hard to get wagons going

[RLotus]

Either Elements is just scum or one or two scum are already on Elements right?

I fail to see why it is so hard to get wagons going

I think town is a little divided on their poes, and some scum are probably playing just town enough for the compromises to feel icky.

For example, I just could not get into my elements vote, even though I don't really see a reason not too. I'm not getting like strong scum vibes there either. I'd be willing to put my vote there again to end this day, but how they flip I don't have confidence in.

Yeah, town is certainly divided. My thinking is moreso why aren't scum pushing over elements.

[RLotus]

I think I'm starting to see andre town. I can see the thought process behind his progression on me now and it seems genuine. His reason is fine too because now that he describes it more, I can see how my play can be construed as mischaracterizing people. I do tend to try to interpret motivations and intentions and when I state those as conviction, people often see me reaching or in bad faith or something

[RLotus]

Sure we can try there
VOTE: Italiano

[RLotus]

@Elements @BM might as well just vote me. We can end this day and you guys can catch the scum that’s on my wagon.

Ya know saying stuff like this just dirties up your wagon. Elements and BM or whoever you are prompting to vote you can just say well he literally told me to vote him how is that scummy. And well that is true. Makes it harder to find scum on your wagon.

[RLotus]

But I don’t think those two are scum.

If you are telling 2 townies to vote for you, how do you expect to find scum on your wagon??

[RLotus]

Scum afraid to vote lol

what's this mean?

That scum were avoiding getting on italiano's wagon. I assumed it was because he was an obv yeet and it'd look like bussing when he flipped scum...but perhaps it was because they knew he was going to flip town?

The wagon was the obvious conclusion for the day and yet was stalled for quite awhile, so much so that italiano self hammered as a cop.....

Yeah I agree for this reason I think there is a reasonable chance there is no scum on that wagon or one at most maybe.

[RLotus]

VOTE: Dunn

[RLotus]

I would like to hear andre's thoughts before we end the day if possible

[RLotus]

UNVOTE:

[RLotus]

Yeah I agree for this reason I think there is a reasonable chance there is no scum on that wagon or one at most maybe.

This is garbage. I would say the exact opposite - there’s at least one Scum on that wagon for sure. The same core of folks pushed RTP and Italiano. But nah, everybody is Town? What are you blind?

Is anybody paying any attention to anything RTP even posted?

VPB and Datisi are pretty strong townreads for me at this point. The way the wagon formed started with RTP then Datisi, VPB, and I jumped on. Assuming VPB and Datisi are town, what reason does scum have for voting there? It seems like they would just be incriminating themselves after Italiano flips town and better off staying off.

If there are compelling reasons to believe VPB and/or Datisi are scum then I can see that perspective.

[RLotus]

Yeah I agree for this reason I think there is a reasonable chance there is no scum on that wagon or one at most maybe.

This is garbage. I would say the exact opposite - there’s at least one Scum on that wagon for sure. The same core of folks pushed RTP and Italiano. But nah, everybody is Town? What are you blind?

Is anybody paying any attention to anything RTP even posted?

VPB and Datisi are pretty strong townreads for me at this point. The way the wagon formed started with RTP then Datisi, VPB, and I jumped on. Assuming VPB and Datisi are town, what reason does scum have for voting there? It seems like they would just be incriminating themselves after Italiano flips town and better off staying off.

If there are compelling reasons to believe VPB and/or Datisi are scum then I can see that perspective.

This is a horrible take and you’re wrong. It’s like asking - what reason does Scum have for voting Town?

We were stalling towards the end of day and if town is just going to flop onto Italiano why would scum need to

[RLotus]

Especially after that wagon was already getting momentum with no counter wagon in sight

[RLotus]

@RLotus how do you know that Town were just going to flop onto Italiano? I don’t think I was going to vote there. I would have already by the time that the wagon was holding up had I believed it to be correct. You can never really be sure that a particular wagon was going to go through. And that’s the point.

Also, how are VPB and Datisi your strongest TRs? That’s nonsensical. I don’t think both are Scum I’ll say that. But your strongest TRs? Really? RTP was leaning more positively on VPB, so I can maybe see that one. Datisi? No chance in hell. You’re just not reading then.

They are the most apparently gamesolving. Consistent pushes, nice flow of thought, getting information where they need. Obviously I can be wrong but I don't see it.

RTP called just about everyone scum at one point or another. They were quite erratic with their reads, I don't see why RTP's reads should affect anything.

[RLotus]

Well I'm town so there's that, scum wouldn't mind me. GC I didn't really see getting a lot of traction other than you and midway I think?

[RLotus]

Frankly I think I’m alive and RTP is dead because yeah, you could be Town Lotus. But you’re just way off. Voting with the same people that lead to Town multiple times just doesn’t make any sense. Where’s your sense of skepticism?

I thought we were just syncing up, because Dunn's vote on midway just seemed like he was picking someone on the town wagon with little to no reasoning to get towncred and have a follow up push today.

You seem confident in the fact that Dunn is town. What is your view on the game currently?

[RLotus]

outside of the start of the day, rtp was consistently townreading me

This isn’t strictly true, since they actually were voting you at one point.

nope, that's true. i was an rvs vote (that's the only time they voted me), which they kept for a little bit, then decided i'm probtown and never included me in the poe. so.

They did include you in the poe for a while

[RLotus]

Spoiler: Cookie's Thoughts/Reads Cause why not

Thoughts on Italiano wagon

ok uhhh
VOTE: italiano

my levels of care are becoming lower and since i'm town on duchess anyway, i don't particularly care to wait to see who replaces them

This vote doesnt give me a good feeling...

Sure we can try there
VOTE: Italiano

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Italiano

These two votes seem too followy for my liking

VOTE: ItalianoVD
I'm subscribing to this wagon

Again dont like how you have just jumped on the wagon

VOTE: italiano

Let's go.

It’s been real my peeps. Appreciate all you do.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

You know what I dont like this wagon at all but I do think it was really strange the way Italiano reacted and that self hammer just... ew but anyway whats done is done and while I dont like the votes on the wagon it happened and the game is moving forward so onto the next thing...

Cookie's Reads List

TOWN

Andresvmb - Just seems to be genuine in all posts and really gives me the town vibes - can't really explain the feeling tbh
RLotus - I like the way they ask theor questions as it seems like they are really trying to solve the game
Momrangal - Players beforehand yes were a little scummy but I think I like this slot for a low town lean atm

NULL

Dunnstral - Seems to be a very experienced player so am going to really have a good look into ISO later because I feel this is a slot that could be scum but appear really towny
Green Crayons - Really don't know how I feel about this slot just seems really strange in the way they appear to me and its really hard to explain
Midwaybear - They seem like they are trying to solve but the vote on the Italiano wagon really doesnt sit well with me and I think its the worst
Maxwell - Don't know how I feel about them yet fully but some of their posts I think I see coming from a town perspective more than scum but alas I could be wrong and that has me really paranoid

SCUM

Elements - Can't help but feel this slot has scum slipped.... 734 and then this I think is the slip 901 and their votes going everywhere seems to me more like a scummy thing to do as it seems like they are trying to find a wagon that everyone can support to get them eliminated. The only thing I can give them on the up-side was that they wern't on the stupid Italiano wagon
Datisi - I dont really know if I like their posts.. Something seems either forced or just not right to me
VP Baltar - Don't like their posts at all. I dont like how they dont really seem to be solving just asking questions and throwing votes around to make it seem like they are doing something and looking busy enough to stay out of the spotlight...

After all that...
VOTE: VP Baltar

How much of the game have you read through?

[RLotus]

Mmmm... I might not be super sure about Max/VP pairing. Need to look more into harumi replacement

What do you mean by Max/VPB pairing?

[RLotus]

I mean, look, lord knows I had my issues with Lotus yesterday. We can now definitively say his push on Italiano was not accurate, and to me it hedged into bad faith territory at times.

My assessment of his play makes sense now that he flipped PR, at least to me. He was playing more cautiously/passively than he normally does as town and it is likely due to that fact.

[RLotus]

I don't know if Italiano was necessarily playing cautiously given he self-hammered as a cop. but anyhow.

lol

[RLotus]

Andre is obvtown imo

I still don't see scum in VPB and Datisi after reconsidering. After reading a couple VPB games, it seems like he has a tendency to try to discredit people pushing on him as town. At first I thought it was scummy, but I think that is town behavior for him.

I still have this lingering gut paranoia about him regardless. Maybe he could be a deepwolf here? I dunno I guess I can't shake the feeling I got day 1. Anyway, he's in my townblock.

I'm still happy with Duchess/Cookie Monster town for Duchess' push on VPB.

It's curious that BM/Momrangel is seemingly getting a pass still from BM's entrance. Need more from momrangal to get a better idea of them.

Elements keeps doing this thing where when he is prompted to or is pushed on, he has a townish feeling series of posts and then promptly drifts back into null. Hard to read for me.

Basically I'm quite directionless atm. Dunn is a fine elim for that vote on midway which a couple others have mentioned.

[RLotus]

After reading a couple VPB games,

which games were those?

Mini Theme 2165, Open 802, Mini 2180

[RLotus]

Also, considering I just repped a couple days ago, I don't think my activity is too terrible

Yeah that's fine I just need more to make a stance on you

[RLotus]

I had the same thought as you guys about BM, that he is probably town if Italiano flips town.

The fact that the Italiano wagon hasn't built up despite the fact that it has been talked about ad nauseum might be an indicator that I'm on the right track. Alternatively, it could just be a product of the stalled gamestate.

i mean most of the talk is about how he's town, so would you really expect a wagon to build regardless of his alignment?

After reading back through that interaction though, this quote makes me not want to write off BM/Momrangal just yet. It seems like he thought Italiano was getting a lot of townreads, so if he is scum it makes sense that he would hard defend Italiano there.

[RLotus]

Lotus, you around?

As in, could I get your take on the claim? You said andres is obvtown. What's your take on the neighborizer stuff? You agree with andres that GC is possibly scum coming off that? Different take?

Well the claim is most likely real unless Datisi is his partner. It is possible that he is a scum neighborizer, but I was reading him town outside of his claim, so I'm fine with the claim.

I assumed the reason he didn't want to out who he neighborized was because he didn't want Datisi to die in the night and I don't really see a reason he would do that as scum, unless he's not really a neighborizer. When he was at e-2 and was being askeed to claim who he neighborized he wasn't cooperating, as if his goal isn't necessarily to survive. Also, neighborizer would be a foolish fakeclaim.

[RLotus]

I still think Duchess was town tho

[RLotus]

What do you think of Andres out of that exchange?

It's a natural reaction to be suspicious of a neighborizer claim that won't claim who they neighborized, he's fine.

[RLotus]

Still working with a townblock of VPB, Datisi, Andre, Cookie, GC. VPB being the most likely place that I am wrong.

Meaning I think the scum is in Dunn, midway, maxwell, DGB, and Momrangal.

Considering Dunn, DGB, and Maxwell are on the midway wagon, I figure there is probably at least one scum on midway. I'd prefer someone like dunn, maxwell, or dgb currently.

VOTE: Dunn

I was happy with Duchess being town beforehand, so the claim kind of confirms it for me. I really wish he didn't claim tho.

[RLotus]

VPB being the most likely place that I am wrong.

mind talking about this? earlier in the day you had him as a stronger townread, what's making you shift here?

I have this lingering feeling that maybe I shouldn't be letting him go so easily even though he does appear to be game solvy. Also, I still have the weird feeling that between you and him at least one of you knows each others alignment, because this lack of suspicion between you two doesn't seem natural.

I dunno, maybe it really is as easy as chopping off all the lurkers and we just win. I'm not totally comfortable with the gamestate nonetheless.

I really don't like the midway wagon though. My top town andre, our 2 PRs, and myself are all off the wagon. Makes it seem like there must be scum voting there.

[RLotus]

Still working with a townblock of VPB, Datisi, Andre, Cookie, GC. VPB being the most likely place that I am wrong.

Meaning I think the scum is in Dunn, midway, maxwell, DGB, and Momrangal.

Considering Dunn, DGB, and Maxwell are on the midway wagon, I figure there is probably at least one scum on midway. I'd prefer someone like dunn, maxwell, or dgb currently.

VOTE: Dunn

I was happy with Duchess being town beforehand, so the claim kind of confirms it for me. I really wish he didn't claim tho.

I find this endlessly frustrating.

Please go look at the group of players that expressed interest in voting Dunn, or voted Dunn to begin the day. And then tell me why the argument you’re making makes sense for midway but not for Dunn too.

Because I think all the people that were voting Dunn are town.

[RLotus]

VPB + Datisi does seem to be the constant on like virtually every significant wagon

[RLotus]

yes

what does that tell you

That town is remarkably cooperative or that one of you isn't that strong in their own opinions.

[RLotus]

I'm actually enjoying people jumping on me because there are absolutely scum making bad life choices in this mix.

I disagree so much. Why are scum taking such a hard route as opposed to just jump on RTP or Elements when that would be so much safer. Like you are a highly townread slot and my push on you already has shown to have a lot of resistance.

Because it is stupid and bad faith. It hasn't met resistance so much as you're making terrible points that you're trying to take out of context. Anyone can go read the stuff you're pointing to and see how much of a misrepresentation it is.

Multiple people calling you town is indeed resistance. It's like you're not even trying to evaluate the people pushing on you, but instead calling them scum with blanket terms like bad faith.

I'm not surprised as you haven't been trying to solve anyone this game. It's funny that you call my logic stupid
when it is indeed true that you haven't been trying to solve and mainly riding the fence.

It is also rich that you call my logic stupid when your two top scumreads are 1. OMGUSing me, with terrible reasoning(bad faith blahblahblah) 2. Dunn for lurking, even though you've been repeatedly told that he lurks as both alignments. But, you keep Dunn as one of your top scum you can't get it through your head it seems.

@RLotus, why after posting this (and I agree), are you voting Dunn? Do you actually believe Dunn will flip Scum? VPB is still doing what you have previously criticized them for - but this time, to me. Do you not agree?

Yes he is doing the same thing he did to Duchess and I trying to undercut and discredit your arguments with bad faith arguments even though I don't think you are in bad faith here. It is a scummy looking reaction, but I iso'd a town game from where he did exactly this. It seems this is just how he defends himself. Not to discount that he could do this as scum.

About dunn idk dude. I don't like that maxwell and dgb went from midway to dunn and I assume vpb and datisi will probably join too. The reason I didn't like the midway wagon was because I figured there had to be scum on there, but it seems like this one will be identical. I don't know what's going on.

[RLotus]

I'm not voting Dunn. We are yeeting midway today.

I would love if people would stop gaslighting me as well. It is really annoying.

You think midway is more likely scum than dunn now?

[RLotus]

The sudden brakes on the midway wagon also gives me a sense this is correct.

Meaning one of the people that left his wagon are scum or?