Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[midwaybear]

Hello ^ I think I know who you are
I read through Lunar's iso before I replaced and he seemed townie enough.
I probably will skim through the game later.

[midwaybear]

Hi VP Baltar
Hi Datisi

It's interesting how three people decided to reply in some form to VPB's friendly neighbor comment. In general, I would expect scum to be more motivated to engage with that. It's still page 1, so it's possible it was just RVS fun but it is still a thought.

24 I think there are two interpretations for Duchess's 23, but neither of them seem townie. Originally, I don't think I would have townread it because it's pretty easy for mafia to ask those question. Also, I do remember in Open 805, RLotus shot godfather Duchess. I feel like if you roll scum with someone who recently caught you, your first instinct is to try to pocket or at least interact with them more.
Why is this town?

31 Elements saying this umprompted seems townie.
33 Hmm

Given that Elements caught scum Italiano without any meta, I'm wondering why Italiano wasn't more suspicious of elements for saying that meta was required to make a readlist.

62 Good q
69 What is the exaggeration? I don't even find that particularly aggressive.
72 Sort of townie from Italiano. I don't think he thinks of that reason to vote VPB as scum.

Duchess's progression from 90-92 reads genuine. There's a possibility I naturally scumread that style.

From the first four pages, I am townleaning Elements and Italiano.

[midwaybear]

104 I see where Datisi is coming from with this read. I definitely noticed that some of Duchess's questions seem unhelpful and more "for show". I also think Datisi plays like this sometimes too which is also interesting.
105 I don't like how VPB decides to comment that it is a spicy take without any follow up. I think scum are more likely to do that, and if VPB is scum, it probably indicates Datisi/Duchess t/t.

I ask because I want a response, not necessarily an answer.

What does this mean?

112 This feels like a really safe way to present a vote. Scummy. "Uh", "for lack of any clearly better options"
130 Harumi continues this sort of safe approach to Italiano, and it's starting to become more questionable than scummy.

No opinion on Duchess/GC. I'm finding it a little difficult to follow their interactions regarding Italiano.

158 Example of a question from Datisi that I feel isn't particularly helpful.
RTP, why did you ignore VPB asking you about GC's cagey reads?

I gotta say I'm not at all comfortable being in the middle of this Duchess/Green Crayons thing, lol. Like yikes, I don't like what I say to be a basis to read someone else off when it wasn't my intention to do so. If this is theatre please choose something else to fight over and leave me out of it and if you're town then just drop it, it's not that serious.

Why is this uncomfortable to you? I think this happens relatively often in games, and this reads like an unnatural thought.

[midwaybear]

Can you explain this?

I think mentioning PR early on is more likely to pique scum's interest than town's.

[midwaybear]

I have caught up to page 10, and I probably won't go any further. Hopefully, I'll be able to find some one to vote tomorrow.

[midwaybear]

What I should of done is just removed myself from the equation and let them sort each other out. I’m sure I was keeping the fire hot by staying involved.

So I'm guessing you think the whole thing was overblown, and your reads on Duchess/Green Crayon are mostly unaffected? Why do you think they continued to 1v1, or do you have little read on that.

Why am I in your limpool if I'm not scum?

I mean this is probably just a POE thing.

[midwaybear]

Why did you feel compelled to answer for Italiano here?

Sometimes I answer questions that I think have obvious answers. It's a bad habit.

[midwaybear]

It’s crossed my mind. They seem over-explainy to me so far.

I'm pretty sure this is meta for him. TBH, I don't think I can read Datisi very well.

the most important takeaway is probably not the substance of the answer itself, but whatever can be determined from its context, tone, timing, consistency with other posts, word choice, omission of information

Oh ok, I get this. I also feel like this is what most people are looking for in interactions?

496 feels genuine from RTP, but I'm echoing VPB's thoughts in that I'm relatively more cautious in reading players who are decent enough at scum. Still a townlean though.

[midwaybear]

what gives you this impression?

btw you read the game yet?

I think I have trouble reading players with your style in general. This probably goes to Duchess as well. Basically people who ask a lot of questions.
I don't think I have read the whole game, but I'm reading bits and pieces because of the slower pace.

[midwaybear]

But I really want someone to tell me why I should TR there.

Hmm looking at my ISO, I townread Elements because I thought they wouldn't make 31 as scum. I think I thought so because I didn't think scum would make that type of post unprompted.

dislike 544 because i've seen a "ok i'll do things Later" post come from scum one too many times

Harumi's most recent post isn't too inspiring for similar reasons.

I find large explanations or cases on anything D1 to be suspicious. It makes me think you’re full of hot air.

This seems like a blanket scumread, and I don't know if you really believe that it applies to every player.

Also, I don't think people should be townread for "not caring about perception". Most players are easily able to fake that type of uncaring tone as scum. I get that there are going to be town players who also don't care, so this is this more of an argument not to townread those types of players (Dunn this game).

[midwaybear]

Hello, sorry about my absence.

572 - Sounds good
573 - I don't think I would interpret this the same way, but I think this comment is ultimately NAI. Italiano could be annoyed town here as well.

Sorry midway as much as you’ve looked like town, you’ve replaced into a slot that I feel/felt is scum.

I'm not too familar with Lunar's specific meta, but I am familar with the user's overall meta. So I am relatively sure that troll posts are not too alignment indicative for Lunar. I do understand why you would still be suspicious of me if you found Lunar scummy, but I don't think your reasons are too great (for scumreading my predecessor).

I'm taking note that Italiano seems to be somewhat confrontational this game. I don't know what this means for his alignment, but it's an observation. Would like to know what others think of this.

Not really a fan of Andres arguing that Testa was his

second

strongest townread. That seems like a weird point to focus on. Probably going to tentatively townread VPB as well for echoing a lot of my thoughts?

598 - It seems like RLotus and I view Italiano's play this game differently. I actually do see some "bite", but I don't know if it is necessarily town indicative for him (the promises to obvtown, calling out people, ...).

On a somewhat related note, I did recently mod a game where Italiano was jumped on early on. I don't really have any insights on his play because I think my perspective as a moderator unconsciously introduces bias. But this is a factor in my Italiano read. However, GTH, I would put him closer to the scum end than the town end, even with that in mind.

when I get scumread for something stupid or faulty I admit it throws me off and my goal is to disprove that nonsense, which in effect makes me look scummier

Ehhh.

My take on Dunn is that we should let him be sorted over the night. He is probably an =rand elim in my eyes right now.

I think he's confused. I was saying Dunn lurked as scum (to great effect actually) when we were scum together. People gave him a pass in that game, including for a lolhammer D1.

Haha I remember this game.

I'm townreading VPB, RTP, and Elements.
I could elim Andres, Italiano, and Harumi. Could basically compromise on anyone else with a decent enough case.

[midwaybear]

Seems I’m breaking rules every game I play. What is OGI?

Out of game influence (I think).

[midwaybear]

also im here and ready to roll - lets go

I'm about to head out

[midwaybear]

Wow, so many new posts.
UNVOTE: Dunnstral
I guess Lunar was voting here? Don't want this today.

[midwaybear]

Sure, I'll take a look at 696 right now.
Might be able to do a complete catchup later today.

[midwaybear]

you really didn't remove Lunar's vote until now?

I saw that I was voting Dunn on the vc from this morning.

[midwaybear]

@RTP
Harumi
-I think the progression early on to vote Elements makes sense. 38 feels a bit like a setup though, and I don't understand why the gut reads is scummy from Elements.
-I actually think the push on Italiano is not great. 112 feels really wishy washy, and the reasoning is similarly noncommittal
- I will admit that the readlist does feel overall consistent with her method of scumhunting.
-idk about the uninformed vibe
I think I still want to see more from Harumi, but Harumi doesn't need to be an elim candidate for today

[midwaybear]

Green Crayons isn't readable to me yet. He is probably a good scum player, and definitely would be able to point out contradictions as either alignment. Him being defensive to being misrepped could easily just be scum defensive (if you're thinking of Duchess/GC).
Willing to work with others seems more like a personality trait than anything AI.

[midwaybear]

I'm not sure why you would trust fall Tess/BM when it looks like your read is a weak gth townlean.
BM voting me is also somewhat questionable.

[midwaybear]

Agree that elements is probably town.
Italiano
-It's not like he could not be open about his scumgame. Dodging the question is much more suspicious than just giving an answer
-This relaxed energy sometimes feels fabricated (the stuff like "I'll obvtown", "come at me")
-If this is true, then I agree it is townie (going after the person townreading him)
-I'm not sure how "making statements that can be backed up" is town indicative?
-good
-meh I think it is somewhat of an unnatural thought to care about that, but this could be wrong
-Can you give some examples of honest reads from Italiano?
-This is fine

Have to go soon, but for your points on Andres, I'd like some examples of his solid stances/good analysis. Everything else is mostly nullish to me.

[midwaybear]

you think you're obvtown enough that me voting you makes me scum?

Your reason for voting me was terrible.

[midwaybear]

interested to see how you respond?

Respond to what?

there was one post by midwaybear which read really badly to me.

What post?

[midwaybear]

Can't keep up with this game
Feel free to direct me towards any questions
Some things I have picked up on:
-Agree for now that Battle Mage's confidence is indicative of town him
-Think VPB's pushes and his willingness to move votes is not alignment indicative. I think I remember him being similar in a towngame.

[midwaybear]

We should end this day soon.
What are the viable wagons right now?

[midwaybear]

Why is RLotus being wagoned? Looking at the votecount, I could vote GC, Italiano, and RLotus if people sell me on it.
I think RTP has been quite townie this game, and, again, I don't know if "oppurtunisitc" means scum VPB.

[midwaybear]

That feel when the three top wagons (as of 1440) are your three stated townreads

[midwaybear]

VOTE: ItalianoVD
I'm subscribing to this wagon

[midwaybear]

I can't find a good reason for his read to have shifted

I townread Italiano for 72 where he votes VPB for a joke scumclaim. I thought Italiano scum would try to make his votes look better, so I townleaned him for that. When he revealed that it was a reaction test, I took away the townlean because it then seemed like something that was equally likely to come from either alignments.
His later actions also seemed scummy/not townie to me, so I ended up voting him. Agree that the self hammer was sooo bad

[midwaybear]

I'm not sure. I actually voted him because I saw that he was a viable wagon from 1602.
I was still townreading Elements, and didn't really have an opinion on GC at the time.

[midwaybear]

midway do you have any reads

maxwell: I remember townleaning Harumi, so probably wouldn't look to vote here yet. I think the vote on me wasn't too great though because there seemed to be little follow up. Admittedly, my explanations for voting Italiano weren't the greatest, but it just seems like maxwell got just enough to throw a vote on me and then dipped. Probably neutral right now.
GC: I don't have too much of an opinion. I remember him asking some questions that I thought were pro-town, but I'm not sure how easily they could be faked. I also am getting a negative gut impression, but that needs to be fleshed out more.
Mom: BM was pretty townie. Not interested in limming her today.
Andres: The stuff he posted at the beginning of the day seemed legit, and there was also a line directed towards you that seemed legit. I'd like to see him solving more in that group of {RLotus, VPB, you}.
Elements: Still relatively townie. Idk why people scumread them.
VPB: I don't townread him anymore. I think I originally townread him for thinking the same thoughts as me, but I'm not sure how reliable that is. I don't scumread him either though.
Datisi: Not much of an impression either :/
Dunn: I think you had a point about his vote late on me. Other than that, I'm not sure how to read him yet, but he seems to be posting more which probably helps with the rest of you reading him.
Cookie Monster: I don't think the readlist was scummy, and I remember getting a faint townlean from it for some reason.
RLotus: He pushed a town Italiano for most of the day. I generally scumread players who push town, but idk if it is in his scumrange to be so aggro about it.

So right now, I wouldn't want to lim Andres, Mom, and Elements. Probably not Cookie Monster either, but I might be giving a newbie pass.

[midwaybear]

Actually, I think I'm townleaning VPB's response to what Andres is pursuing. The annoyance seems reasonable, and I think scum VPB might be pursing some other points in response rather than doubling down on Datisi = town.

[midwaybear]

I don't think that is scummy from Dunnstral because he probably knows his wagon doesn't really go anywhere as scum and just doesn't ask that question.

[midwaybear]

1921 from GC feels like a weird way to present a question
To answer it, I should be playing the same as long as my motivation is here. I was not really into the game for a lot of D1.
VOTE: Green Crayons

[midwaybear]

That's true.
Not much is going on right now though, so I don't think Dunn would be too worried if he was scum here?

[midwaybear]

Well, nothing from Elements seems scummy to me from this day which is why I'm still townreading them. My original reason to do so was that I didn't think ELements would put pressure on themself to make reads or something like that early on.

If the gamestate is slow, it tends to favor scum. If Dunn is scum, we probably aren't going to get him today because him and his buddies are going to find a convincing alternative. Perhaps Cookie Monster.

[midwaybear]

what is weird about it?

It is too good faith to me. Reads LAMIST-y

[midwaybear]

TBH, killing RTP was a pretty smart shot. Now there's nobody to really drive this town forward.

[midwaybear]

Ok, it's not like I townread him. I just don't think that is scummy.
Idk who is working to drive attention away from him. Who do you think is doing that? What happened to your galaxy brain idea?

[midwaybear]

I forgot he was voting me. I still am somewhat suspicious. I think he can be wagoned still. I just don't think what you pointed out is too scummy from him.

[midwaybear]

His vote on me is fine for the reasons he gave, but it is more of an interpretation thing that I don't want to get in an argument about. I hope he will see that I am town soon enough.

[midwaybear]

@GC Not really?

[midwaybear]

Midway, can you explain for me again why you chose to vote Italiano over GC or Lotus at the end of D1?

I voted because Italiano was the largest wagon at the time.

[midwaybear]

UNVOTE:
Andres being sort weird. Be back later.

[midwaybear]

Present. I'll give some thoughts later, but can answer any questions.

[midwaybear]

Ideally less than prod range. I need to figure out where to place my vote. Not sure what to think of the claim, but Andres pushing on it so weirdly was enough for an unvote.

[midwaybear]

That's pretty eerie

If I was scum, I would have ignored it.

[midwaybear]

I haven't really been thinking this game in terms of scumreads.
I think I'm townreading you, Mom, and Elements. Honestly, an ungated neighborizer seems a bit strong as a scum role, but I'm not the greatest in balance. I've stopped townreading Andres since his reaction to the claim.
I would vote between maxwell and RLotus at the moment.

[midwaybear]

I don't get why that's too strong for a scum role?

It seems like an easy pocket. I’m probably overthinking this though.

[midwaybear]

Yes, you're right. That was when I was a hyperposter(sorta). Nowadays, I don't really post as much, and my meta has gotten much more "safe". I tend to go back and forth a lot as town now, and I definitely would do that as scum too.

Not sure if I should be townreading 2219. Definitely think town would be frustrated with the state of the game while scum are probably happy. I get that it is easily fakeable from maxwell, but I don't know if he thinks to say it as scum. Actually, it probably is just NAI, but I won't delete this out.

Also, I think RLotus has a point about GC being stubborn to claim. I think when you're in the spotlight as scum, it generally isn't your first inclination to be uncooperative about it. The tinfoil counter is that it was scum theater which I actually might consider given how weird Andres acted. Idk it seemed like Andres got really worked up about GC which seemed somewhat out of line with my expectations.

I’m trusting RTP’s read of midwaybear for now

More people should consider this lol

[midwaybear]

I think this is the first time I ever got prodded. The snap reaction here from me is to suspect Datisi, VPB, and Andres scumteam. I want to say that scum probably are more comfortable posting right now while town just don't really care.
VOTE: VPB for now
Don't really suspect GC anymore and idk what to say about Cookie Monster, but we aren't voting out a claimed PR.

[midwaybear]

2231 from midway is giving me flashbacks back to 2180 when i was calling him out for doing nothing based on meta (i modded a newbie game where he was town and plenty active) and his response was something along the lines of "oh my playstyle changed haha" and he was just a scumfuck lol

lol. The only thing I can say to this is that I was telling the truth. I mean I can see how you might see this as scum!me trying to use a get out of jail free card, but tbh I would probably be posting more as scum and me and the buddies probably would have been able to find a way to get me out of being top wagon.

recent posts are promises of content, and lowkey filler while not really explaining his reads

what are your reads on the other low posters then?

mentioned earlier that he was getting bad pings on green, never elaborated on, now is on wagon because ~feels like a weird way to present a question~

yeah, seems reasonable

handwaves the dunn wagon, and apparently because the gamestate is dead, we're probably not getting dunn today if he's scum because his partners would interfere (but is that not true for any scum in such a gamestate?) but there are people interfering with his wagon? is there any suspicion towards them or that whole situation??

This sorta implies Dunn and I are both scum? I wouldn't wk town Dunn like this as scum imo

[midwaybear]

Why would a doctor be Loyal? I wonder what other roles that could imply.

[midwaybear]

Datisi, VPB, and Andres scumteam

So you think I go out of my way to vote my Partner, instead of just voting you? Why? Are you high?

I don't see why not. It also looks like you are setting yourself up to vote me here.

[midwaybear]

what are your reads on the other low posters then?

the difference is that i don't have meta on other lower posters that them not having reads / not solving is scum!indicative

Meta is pretty situation, and lack of motivation definitely can happen to town!me. For example, in the TENET large theme, I made one post a day for maybe a week or so.

[midwaybear]

where is andres setting himself up to vote you?

Gotta admit I was sort of trolling when I said 2340, but part of me viewed it as some sort of shade that Andres could point to when he decides to hammer me.

[midwaybear]

Oh, I mean the post that you quoted (2335).

[midwaybear]

I want to say that scum probably are more comfortable posting right now while town just don't really care.

Would love to hear your explanation for that.

There are many inactive slots, so I can see town sort of shutting down.

[midwaybear]

why were you trolling

can you explain why you think scum is more likely to be posting in a slow game like this and why are you suspecting the three of us, beyond "they are posting"?

Just want to have some fun.
I mean the reason is literally that you are all posting which is why it was a snap reaction. I don't know whether this is truly the case or not. If I continue to live, my reads should change.

[midwaybear]

what makes you think scum takes charge / encourages people to vote as opposed to just lurking?

Because scum might fell self-conscious about lurking. I know that you and VPB are generally quite active, so I imagine that it would be hard to lurk as scum, especially in a good position.

[midwaybear]

Vanilla Townie
Apparently not a townie vanilla

[midwaybear]

I’ll be here on and off for a bit. I know I have been sort of scummy this game, so that makes it difficult to tell whether Datisi is opportunistic scum or aggro town. I think I will lightly meta him to see what I can find. Or if anyone has experience with Datisi, does he normally go this aggressively as town?

[midwaybear]

UNVOTE: VPB
I'm going to go back on this vote because VPB has been trying way too hard to be scum here. At least I won't be considering him today.

[midwaybear]

Nobody else was around when I claimed. You guys can put me at L-1 and I'll still talk lol

[midwaybear]

Yeah, but people weren't posting before, so I didn't "stay". Also, a lot of the posts after my claim weren't even related to it at all, so it's not like I was dodging stuff at that point.

[midwaybear]

Are you saying I was trying hard after your vote and that's what changed your mind?

I forget when you voted me, but I was thinking about your wagon analysis specifically.

[midwaybear]

you weren't solving after being put on intent, naked claimed, and peaced out

1. I haven't been able to make any reads really on Day 2. It doesn't seem like anyone else has been either.
2. This is NAI. Demotivation comes from either alignment. There are countless examples of town naked claiming.
3. I'm here now.

[midwaybear]

1. oh gee i wonder which alignment isn't able to form reads. also that's blatantly untrue. the majority has put in at least *some* effort.
2. ok cool i don't care about examples. it's not solely about "demotivation". i'm also feeling demotivated. your reads were making no sense. it's never one sole thing. if you're debunking the "but so what i naked claimed, there's examples of town doing that!!" you're missing my point.
3. have something to show for it.

Meh, I disagree that most have put in "some" effort. Or else the threshold would definitely include me.
Idk I'm just trying to say what comes to my mind. I recognize that they don't make much sense, but it's difficult to be confident in much this game.

[midwaybear]

And why in the hell is maxwell now having second thoughts about midwaybear? That definitely raised some flags for me. You didn’t find that somewhat suspicious? What has midway done at this point at E-1 that would really change your view of how things are developing?

I was suspicious at first, but I think the doubt is a reasonable reaction.

[midwaybear]

Okay but, your initial reads where that the top posters in {VPB, Datisi, Me} were Scum. So which is it?

I mean, you voted me not super long after (about 200 posts) after I finished the off wagon analysis part. What made you reconsider that analysis?

Response to both: I did suspect VPB for posting a lot, but I think his solving outweighs that.

[midwaybear]

gg well played
town couldn't really get anything going this game