Mini 1368 (Game Over)

[killerjester]

Hey everyone, pleasure to be here. I've given the thread a good once-over. A few players caught my attention more than others so don't feel offended if I don't address you. I plan to look back at the wagons, on Cheery and NS specifically, and go ISO-mode to get a better understanding on the players I haven't mentioned. However, in the meantime I'll provide my initial questions and start getting involved, as I believe staying current is the most useful thing a replacement can do. One will always have time to look back on what has already happened.

#14

PoPP

, do you claim miller by default in your games? If not, why did you claim here? All I noticed was Pappums and Cheery soft-opposing claims from any players, not just you in specific. FUT asked for a claim, but no one else was asking for you to claim.

#19

Cheery

, can you elaborate on what you means here? I didn't quite follow. What did BBstar say/do that came off as weakly scummy, and why would the mafia benefit from this (in reference to the "side that would like that the most")?

#64

Melmond

, can you explain more about the FoS here? Cheery mentioned claims being favorable in OPEN games, which this clearly is not.

#71

Lupo

, why did you feel the need to give a warning-vote here? If Cheery is your "only" scumread at the moment why are you giving him another chance? Also, if "Cheery" is your only scumread at the moment why are you not asking more questions or some other form of scumhunting here?

#112

Pappums

, in #102 you indicated that Cheery's reaction test strengthened your scumread on him. In your #112 you indicated the same reaction test contributed to your new townread on him. What was mentioned, if anything, that made you view the reaction test in a new light? Please be definitive in your answer, as in describing what was scummy about it to begin with and what exactly changed your mind.

#118

Khan

, if you had to pick one part of Lupo that stood out as being most scummy, what would you say that is? You've mentioned moving wagons along, requesting Cheery claim, and his opening RVS joke. If there is anything else that makes him scummy please indicate so.

On a final note, I've played a few games with NS and lurking isn't really indicative of his alignment. @

Melmond

,

Paschendale

, and

Hellhound1

, is his inactivity the driving force behind your votes on NS? If not, please explain what you think is scummy about him.

[killerjester]

@Paschendale, why haven't you asked NS anything directly?

@Melmond, yes. At the bottom of my post, "Is inactivity the driving force behind your votes on NS? If not, please explain what you think is scummy about him." You removed your vote, but I want to know why it was there to begin with. And if you're taking your vote off NS, who are you looking at in terms of scumreads?

[killerjester]

Then who was of merit for needing question as of that point?

[killerjester]

Lupo do you think there were scum on the Cheery wagon? If so, which person seems scummiest?

[killerjester]

PoPP, I'm a little unnerved that Lupo hasn't been paying attention as to why people have been voting for NS.

@Lupo, what is your opinion of the Hellhound wagon? If you think it is misguided or scum-driven, what leads you to believe this? If you think it is legitimate, then why is the NS wagon a better choice for your vote?

[killerjester]

Lupo hadn't really acknowledged how he felt about NS putting Cheery at L-1 until #162. At the time, he seemed okay with the vote, as he never said anything and felt it was appropriate for Cheery to claim (at least in my experience, if I feel that a player has been put at L-1 for an unjust reason I will not request a claim - so in this case it would seem to indicate Lupo did not find NS scummy at the time). However, now he feels the L-1 vote is scummy.

Like I said, it's unnerving.

[killerjester]

My scumreads in roughly decreasing order now are Hellhound, Lupo, Cheery Dog, and Melmond. I had found FUT scummy but killerjester makes me have the slot as a town read for now.

Can you elaborate on your Melmond read? You said he was scummy because his first 4 posts had no real content. How has your read changed since then?

[killerjester]

There was at minimum one scum on the Cheery wagon. Hellhound and pappums are two names that keep coming up as I read through, so at the present I'm considering the chances of scum within these two. Hellhound has promised an analysis of NS and I want pappums to answer the question in my first post.

[killerjester]

NS please answer Cheery's other question. Is having four scumreads this early in the game inherently scummy? If so, why? Or is there something about the four players he finds scummy that you don't agree with?

[killerjester]

Day one scumreads are always weaker than later ones. Nobody can be as sure in the early game, so having more scumreads is almost necessary. The point is to see who is leaning scummy and sort out if those leans are strong enough to pursue. To think that one's first few scumreads are going to be correct and not allow that there would need to be re-evaluation seems misguided to me.

Who was this directed at?

[killerjester]

"Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults)"

So does that mean you think he's town?

[killerjester]

I'll vote after Hellhound gives his analysis of NS.

[killerjester]

I don't really see the case on Lupo. Not being trigger happy is a good thing, I think. Even if he wasn't supremely certain of NS being scummy, he did vote for him. But apparently no one else really sees it either, since almost no one is voting for him. That's good. I think Hellhound and NS are WAY better choices.

The case on Lupo is the

change

of his opinion on NS. Change is something to examine very carefully in mafia games, and the motivation behind it. If a player's strong scumreads suddenly become glorified townreads, what happened? Does the player have a legitimate reason for direly changing their opinion, or is it likely they have done so to fit their own scummy agenda?

In #162 Lupo calls NS out for putting CD at L-1 for no real reason, but if this was a true opinion why didn't he speak up earlier? Why, shortly after NS made the vote (3 posts after, to be exact), we see Lupo skimming over NS's post, noticing CD is at L-1 and calling for a claim. This fit the agenda of a scum; Lupo found the L-1 vote appropriate when it meant he could get CD to claim, but later when I ask him for his scumreads he points the finger at NS and calls him scummy for the

same

L-1 vote.

For some reason when I originally read NS's vote on CD he seemed to have posted more content than that. When you told me to go back I noticed how scummy the whole thing really was.

This is him admitting that he didn't pay much attention to the L-1 vote. And I think we all know which team has more incentive to skim over crucial L-1 votes. Scum. Unless Hellhound literally hangs himself in his next post, I'd be more comfortable with a Lupo lynch today.

[killerjester]

I'll vote after Hellhound gives his analysis of NS.

[killerjester]

Clearly if I wait for Hellhound the end will end without me voting for anyone.

VOTE: Lupo

But I would appreciate some prods.

[killerjester]

Clearly if I wait for Hellhound the

day

will end without me voting for anyone.

VOTE: Lupo

But I would appreciate some prods.

Doh

[killerjester]

Yes.

[killerjester]

I want Hellhound to make a post before anyone goes around demanding claims.

[killerjester]

I read it differently. Do you care for my interpretation? Or would it be more helpful if Cheery speaks for himself?

[killerjester]

Oh LOL that's not what I was thinking at all. I read as you were mocking bbstar, your question felt like it was asking for proof that wasn't there ("ohey Christians! do you have the proof that God is real???) and the "I guess there is one way to find out" was insinuating that there is never proof of one's role until there's a flip. I thought you were disagreeing with bbstar calling Hellhound a mislynch.

Honestly, the thought that you were calling bbstar scummy never occurred to me. It probably had to do with your vote. Which

would

make sense if you were of the mindset shown above. But you aren't. So I agree with KK, if you think it's a scumslip then you should trying to lynch bbstar, not Hellhound.

[killerjester]

Dude, he just got off V/LA today. Give him some time to pick up the prod. If it comes down to the wire - within a few hours of the deadline - I'll hammer Hellhound as he is my #2 lynch.

HOWEVER, you've said something that tingles my scumdar.

He is trying to lurk this out, and it seems to be working with triangle123 saying a move to Lupo is happening if Hellhound doesnt post soon. WTF is up with that, seriously?

Last I checked, both here (#179) and here (#207), you were supportive of a Lupo lynch, and simply thought it was unlikely to go through D1. So what's wrong with triangle switching to the Lupo wagon anyway?

[killerjester]

I've

never

seen scum use the term mislynch to describe their scumbuddies being lynched. Not even in QTs.

CD, why are you not voting your biggest scumread?

[killerjester]

Flaking is a null tell. I don't understand why everyone feels so rushed.

[killerjester]

I'm not voting him because we were close to deadline, and I'd like to see a lynch go through, even though the deadline is now suspended, the hellhound slot still requires the pressure I'm giving it. BBS can wait until tomorrow.

So.....what? At first, you were ignoring your biggest scumread because we didn't have enough time for a bbstar wagon. And now that we DO have time you're STILL not going to pursue your biggest scumread? Even when he's offering to hammer the wagon that you're on? That really doesn't rustle your jimmies at all?

That is a genuine question addressed to the mod, I'm not on trial for it, I want to hear what he says.

It is not part of the actual gameplay so kindly refrain from using it to further your cause.

And YOU! Who the hell do you think has been calling for the quickhammer on Hellhound? Pappums would've been fine with hammering Hellhound before a replacement was found, but that's something you leave to the players of the game. Having the Mod decide if he dies not only assumes a consensus that the town DOES want to lynch Hellhound (and if they did, why has it not been done already?), but deprives the town of valuable analysis if Chaos decides not to replace him because it allows the excuse, "I hammered because the Mod told me to."

Now you

are

on trial for your question. Please answer #292.

[killerjester]

@pappumsrat, The replacement does not have Hellhound's personality, does he? We cannot lynch him while a replacement is searching because:
1. Hellhound has poor defenses, replacement might have strong ones.
2. We cannot judge a replacement by the last user that had his/her role.

#281 was written after the mod begun searching for a replacement and postponed the deadline, why did you want to lynch Hellhound there?

[killerjester]

Lupo lynch > bbstar lynch > Hellhound lynch

Melmond is acting townish is his last few posts.

[killerjester]

We have 2 days until deadline.

[killerjester]

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

Let's try to get a straight answer out of you. Why did you feel that your post needed artificial sincerity?

[killerjester]

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ask_a_Stupid_Question_Day

I believe I posted that to add strength to my words, were I to be nightkilled and when others may look back over them. In fact I can quote sentences and cut them short too, but the full one should read:

I reiterated my miller claim to strengthen the sincerity of what little advice I had to give to town, just in case I were targeted in the coming night.

Also, you can hang on to "artificial", for the record I was being sincere. What reason do you have to call it artificial?

Assuming you

are

town, and assuming you

do

get nightkilled... well you'd flip town. It's completely inane to reiterate that point. Town would be more interested in providing analysis than trying to appear townlike, ESPECIALLY if they think they are going to draw the night kill. Your claim doesn't need additional sincerity after you flip town, so trying to put on your extra-towny-town mask seems artificial to me.

Also, I'm not happy that Hellhound's slot was lynched so quickly. That being said, CD seems townlike for #327. I feel that wanting to have something to analyze tomorrow isn't an idea that comes to scum naturally.

[killerjester]

For the record, I prefer crumbing miller D1.

Yes, preferably we want miller to be nightkilled. But PoPP isn't necessarily miller. It's not the claim that makes him scummy, I view the claim as null. It's just part of his play that I'm not entirely comfortable with. It's also worth noting that I feel his claim shouldn't be used to gauge how far into the game PoPP lives. I mean, sure, I can understand that the bottom line is we don't want the miller in LyLo. But all this talk about the vig shooting him

solely

based on the miller claim, or putting off a PoPP lynch

solely

based on the miller claim. If he has good, constructive town play, we'll keep him around. If he's acting scummy, he dies. The same could be said for anyone.

Lupo, bbstar, and PoPP would be my top 3 at the moment, in no particular order.

[killerjester]

Two very enticing wagons! I can hardly choose!

VOTE: Lupo

[killerjester]

Reads atm

Scummy:

Lupo
basketballstar24
pieceofpecanpie

Null-scummy:

Idiotking
Paschendale
Nobody Special

Null[y]:

Kublai Khan
pappums rat
triangle123

Towny:

Cheery Dog
Melmond

I think I've been clear about my scum-reads. The null-scummy category is for players that I've seen distancing, but nothing strikingly scummy about their posts (IK and Paschendale from the Cheery wagon, along with bbstar - NS from the HH wagon, along with Lupo). Cheery is town because of #327, Melmond is town because of #306 and #310

[killerjester]

Explain please.

Hellhound's slot was already hammered, yet Cheery encouraged him to give reads anyway.

It feels like an impulse that comes more naturally to a town-player than to scum. Scum have no reason to show any regard to the opinion of a mislynch.

[killerjester]

Scum or town, if you aren't going to play towards your win condition I'd rather you replace out.

Do you have reads for us? Scumhunting? Opinions? Anything?

[killerjester]

#206 is my case on Lupo, in case we forgot. The only thing I have to add to it is that he lurked hard while the Hellhound wagon was gaining speed, perhaps dodging suspicions against himself. Not to mention how content he was with his vote on NS (which was questionable to begin with, go read #206 for details). That looks

exactly

like scum-distancing to me, for fear of being associated with Hellhound's mislynch.

[killerjester]

No, but close. You're scum for being on a wagon that wasn't going anywhere, and literally doing nothing at all while Hellhound was lynched.

A town player might've actually shown concern if they saw a townread of theirs getting lynched! They might engage with the other players, try to start a viable counter-wagon, push for a lynch of a player they're hoping will flip scum. You did nothing of the sort. You didn't even have the conviction to declare him a townread. IIRC, instead of giving a definitive read on him you simply stated the cases on him were bad cases.

Distancing scum, on the other hand, would park their vote off the wagon, cite some half-assed reasoning, and call it a day. Afterall, why should they try to prevent a town from being lynched?

[killerjester]

The NS wagon was clearly going nowhere.

In #185 you explicitly stated you were

not

defending Hellhound, and instead you were merely commenting about the cases on him. "Clearing up" things with KK, and finding particular points of PoPP and triangle "odd".

Scum team of Hellhound and Lupo very likely. Post #51 and #113 has him defending Hellhound with a kind of flavour that suggests scumbuddies (ie. little incentive and unclear motive for doing so), and #94 is a bit of conversational fluff between the two with a similar scummy flavour.

As for HellHound #51 & #113 are more of me challenging the other person for a read I disagree with. KK seemed to not understand the vote that I did, so I tried to clear it up. Pap and Triangle said he was scummy for FOSing FUT and CD when he pointed them out for buddying. even though those were his only reads most people at the time only had those reads so I found it odd that they were both going at him.

And no, you were not even close to being considered active or engaging. Don't try to kid yourself otherwise.

[killerjester]

On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most scummy, where would you place Lupo?

[killerjester]

Hm..

Which part of my argument in #206 felt like it was sheeping KK? Can you point out where KK expressed a similar view?

[killerjester]

Would like my question answered.

[killerjester]

Guise, I'm honestly not seeing where KK and myself covered the same material. KK found Lupo scummy for his involvement in the Cheery wagon, with the claim request et al. I found him scummy for voting NS.

Please explain where you see the sheeping/rehashing. Paschendale first, then Idiotking.

[killerjester]

Lynching lurkers is only good if we don't have a better alternative. Who are your scumreads, KK?

[killerjester]

Can you elaborate on your CD read? I thought you had him pegged as scummy to some degree.

[killerjester]

I feel as though NS's post is missing something. But it's just that he's missing a vote. Is the case on NS still only that he's lurking?

[killerjester]

I...I don't know how to feel about this.

You went from "fully endorsing a jester wagon" (#383) to wanting a policy lynch on Lupo, after calling myself and CD scummy (#422). And when Lupo's post contradicted your policy lynch you suggest another policy lynch on Lupo for a different reason, while citing instances you felt were townish (#431).

Individually, you're both scummy. But I'm having a hard time imagining this is bussing.

[killerjester]

I'm mostly bothered by the change from #423 to #431. The former felt like PoPP believed Lupo was no longer a good policy lynch. However, he later decides to do it anyway. I don't think it's bussing since you can't expect to get any credit for a policy lynch, but it

does

mean you can hide from suspicion no matter what Lupo flips.

You're essentially lining up lynches while trying to seem uninvolved with them. So it's individually scummy.

Lupo's waffling over NS D1 is the crux of my case.

[killerjester]

Reaction testing, to be more exact.

Why did you hammer?

[killerjester]

Funny, that sounds like your game. Sprinkle a little suspicion here and there, get wagons rolling.

Tu quoque is not a valid defense for what you are doing. Aside from your logical fallacy, where do you actually see me lining up lynches?

Do you want to see Lupo lynched or not?

This is the kind of question that bugs me. It assumes that because I find Lupo scummy, I can't question the opinion of players who want to lynch Lupo as well. Quite frankly, I don't know your role. I

should

be skeptical of your motives. If I feel that you're trying to get away with a half-assed policy lynch I'm going to call you out for it.

[killerjester]

Lupo is a good lynch regardless, but I'm not seeing how we get barrels full of information from lynching him over player X. Can someone elaborate on that point? PoPP first, then triangle.

[killerjester]

Okay, after #469 I feel better about PoPP's place on the Lupo wagon. Before I felt as though he was stressing the informational aspect of Lupo's lynch over Lupo's scummy play. For instance, in #431 he was citing instances where his feelings towards Lupo's scummy

play

were diminished, but that we should lynch him anyway based from

information and policy

. That's also why I felt he was playing more of a suspicious, uninvolved role in Lupo's wagon.

#469 suggests the opposite. That Lupo is still a scummy scum, but that in addition there is an informational aspect to lynching him.

Which makes more sense.

[killerjester]

NS clearly isn't reading the entire thread.

[killerjester]

When was your change of heart regarding Lupo? You at least considered lynching him D1.

[killerjester]

@Mod: Request deadline extension until we find a pappums replacement

This is not an excuse to be useless. Idiotking needs to put a vote down. NS and Paschendale need to find a better wagon. At L-5 with 2 days left a BBstar lynch just isn't happening. Pick your favorite between Lupo/NS (or y'know.. at least oppose your least favorite)

[killerjester]

His [Lupo's] actual content is pretty lackluster

...

But if NS flips scum, then Lupo is essentially cleared. Why waste today's lynch on Lupo when NS looks scummier and that flip will tell us about Lupo

Why would we want to clear a useless town with lackluster content? If you're going by informational benefits alone, Lupo is the better lynch today.

[killerjester]

CD, you seem to think Lupo is town. How so?

[killerjester]

Who are the scum on the Lupo wagon, aside from NS?

[killerjester]

Claim it up, Lupo.

[killerjester]

Lupo, before we lynch you who are the scum?

[killerjester]

Lupo, before we lynch you who are the scum?

Want this answered before the hammer.

Want NS to "get to this over the weekend" before the hammer.

But otherwise, I'm giving this lynch my greenlight as well.

[killerjester]

I'm considering the weekend to be over. Although I understand the game is pretty slow, I expect players to keep their word. NS loses points in my book.

Lupo also seems MIA. Can't expect scum to play along I suppose.

This game seriously needs a night phase. Hammer it up.

[killerjester]

Not quite.

Hammer it up.

[killerjester]

Oh thank god, I was actually gonna try to have him lynched today.

[killerjester]

NS, who are the scum?

[killerjester]

Yea he was buddying Lupo pretty hard.

[killerjester]

It could've been pappums replacement. Innocent, what have you read so far?

[killerjester]

@killerjester So you're pretty town, yeah?

I've always been town.

Since I can't lynch Paschendale anymore, VCA mode engage.

Spoiler: The wagons thus far.

Cheery Dog (6) -

Hellhound1

, triangle123, pappums rat, Melmond, pieceofpecanpie, Nobody Special
Melmond (1) - Cheery Dog
FUT (1) - Idiotking
triangle123 (1) - basketballstar24
Idiotking (1) -

Paschendale

Not Voting (3) -

Lupo

, FUT, Kublai Khan

ChannelDelibird/Hellhound

(7) - pappums rat, triangle123, pieceofpecanpie,

Paschendale

, Melmond, Cheery Dog, Idiotking

Lupo

(3) - Kublai Khan, basketballstar24, killerjester
Nobody Special (2) -

ChannelDelibird

,

Lupo

triangle123 (1) - Nobody Special

Lupo

(7) - pappums rat, killerjester, triangle123, pieceofpecanpie, Idiotking, Nobody Special,

Paschendale

Nobody Special (4) - Kublai Khan,

Lupo

, basketballstar24, Melmond
Cheery Dog (1) - Cheery Dog

The NS counterwagon on D2 seems primarily driven by the players who had Lupo as a scumread D1. Since I do not find it likely that Lupo's scumbuddies would suddenly stop bussing him D2, I think the NS wagon was primarily town driven. We should look for the scum today in the players who found it ideal to get an easy lynch on Hellhound D1, but decided it was time to start bussing D2.

Lynchpool of pappums rat, triangle123, pieceofpecanpie, Idiotking. Gonna iso these players and I'll have something thrown together by tomorrow.

[killerjester]

Did you just call me town and scum in the same post?

What?

[killerjester]

Do you really think scum BBstar would bus Lupo D1 and then suddenly come up with a townread D2 because of Hellhound's flip?

Also..

I am therefore of the belief that someone must have been bussing Lupo either then or today.

Do you realize the most of the playerlist "bussed" Lupo so far? The only ones who haven't are you and Melmond.

[killerjester]

Lupo

:

So by me saying why each case was bad (a few times actually), I wasn't engaging?

Also, by me voting for someone else and stating why I wasn't starting a counter-wagon?

Also, me going against his case showed I had a town read on him. I didn't figure that the players would be so stupid to not understand that just because I don't exactly say "he's town."

Your argument is invalid. Try again.

The last sentence is what I would do if I was jester. I don't know about Lupo,

though I think town since Hellhound turned out to be vig

.

I don't think BBstar is a good lynch today.

Your information on Melmond is even more reason to select from my lynch pool. There's no way the

entire

Hellhound wagon was town-driven.

[killerjester]

Please, Paschendale would've been all too easy to lynch today. It's more likely that the scum wasn't paying attention to the thread.

[killerjester]

Idiotking, can I get a link to two of your recent games? One should be scumplay and the other townplay.

[killerjester]

I'm beginning to think that the driving force behind a NS lynch is that NS is easy pickings, thus appealing to scum. Obviously if my Lupo/Paschendale scum theory is correct, then there would be at least two scum on NS's wagon, and they wouldn't support a Lupo lynch, again for obvious reasons. Unfortunately, as I've said before, a NS lynch would not really indicate anyone's alignment, because he is such a horrible player. Thus D3 would come and we'd still be in the exact same position we are today, minus a townie if the scum NK.

I am legitimately confused. Why on earth would the scum kill Paschendale? With the Lupo flip he was almost certainly going to be wagoned today. He was about the worst person to NK.

This gives me hope, strangely, because it means that the scum are either very, very stupid or aren't reading the thread. To that end,

Vote NobodySpecial

What happened here?

[killerjester]

513 uses language to suggest there are opportunistic scum on the NS wagon. "Easy pickings," and a lynch that is, "..appealing to scum." These are all terms that describe scum lynching town. You also explicitly stated that you did

not

feel scummy vibes from him, rather it was simply anti-town play.

Other than that NS has been an utterly useless active lurker, which is anti-town,

not scummy

.

Your turnaround seems solely based on the night kill. In fact, most of your votes seem to..what's the word. You seem to dissect words and things that have happened over making genuine reads on players. I don't know if I'm being clear so I'll just go through them all.

FUT - You jump on him for the weird exchange on the difference between a non-scumread and lack-of-a scumread.
Hellhound FOS - Because you hate people that go with the flow
Lupo FOS - Agreeing with my reasoning
KK FOS - Because he thinks we should have focus and you don't think focus is necessary
BBstar24 - Because you dislike AtE's
pecanpie FOS - actual read in 486
Paschendale FOS - actual read in 486
Lupo - Agreeing with my reasoning
NS - Because of analysis derived from the night kill

See the difference? "Going with the flow is bad," is not so much an opinion on Hellhound as it is an opinion on sheeping. I don't know if I'm articulating correctly, but this certainly isn't the bulk of why I find you scummy.

The scummiest parts I find about you are the above stated turnaround on NS. I also noticed that you ended D1 saying that Hellhound and Lupo are both great lynches, but you start D2 by attacking BBstar for his AtE. That just screams opportunistic scum to me.

And then there's this of course...

Why would I do that if I were scum? Paschendale was almost certainly going to be lynched today. Hell, I was gearing up to make that happen at the end of D2. There was a very town reason to do so (he buddied Lupo like crazy, and Lupo flipped scum). So if I am scum I would have to be stupid to waste a perfectly good lynch on Paschendale just to screw with the town. That would also mean I bussed my scumbuddy in order to waste a NK. I am not that stupid.

You are proposing a hypothetical in which you are scum. Good show.

VOTE: Idiotking

[killerjester]

I quite literally do not care why you nightkilled Paschendale.

[killerjester]

There are too many possible reasons scum choose from to decide the NK. I am not going to draw one out from a hat for you.

Particularly

not for you.

[killerjester]

I'm supposed to guess why you nightkilled Paschendale? I don't have access to your QT so I won't know for sure until post-game.

Not only is your inquiry completely nonsensical, it is also one that no pro-town player would ever make. It goes completely against any pro-town thinking to make hypotheticals with yourself as scum and defeats the purpose of any and all attached questions. You're supposed to know you're town, so why would you be interested in the answer? Because you're scum.

[killerjester]

WIFOM

• [...] only the killers can say with certainty why someone died. This is especially true when the kill choices were unexpected.

I'm not saying that the nightkill makes you scummy, but it certainly doesn't prevent you from being scum. Based on your day play, you're scummy as hell.

[killerjester]

Since this argument seems to have rambled on a bit, could you do me a favor and explain to me, simply and shortly, why you think I am scum?

Because you've essentially claimed scum.

[killerjester]

I'm assuming you are referring to the hypothetical. Tell me why my explanation is unsatisfactory. It's like you've never seen someone argue by questioning reasoning before.

In #601 you're basically saying, "I can't be scum because if I were scum I would

never

make that nightkill."

It's quite honestly the scummiest hypothetical I've ever seen. You do not have the mindset of a pro-town player. Anyone not voting Idiotking either needs to rectify this or justify themselves in their next post.

At the end of D1 he is equally comfortable with either a Hellhound or Lupo lynch. At the start of D2 he abandons his weak bus on Lupo to start attacking BBstar for AtE'ing. This is the definition of opportunistic scum. At the end of D2 he is talking about how scum Lupo/Paschendale are attacking NS because he's an easy target, implying that NS isn't scum. At the start of D3 he attacks NS largely due to an analysis of a nightkill that was completely unexpected. NS is the easiest target in the game.

He's had a serious hard-on for the nightkill. Virtually all of his thinking seems to center around that one aspect. In #615 he demonstrates an understanding that nightkills should not be used authoritatively (unexpected nightkills, even more so). But we see that Idiotking is desperately going on and on about not only how the nightkill means that NS has to be scum, but also how the nightkill means that he has to be town. This is

exactly

the kind of manipulative play scum benefit from when they kill an unexpected target.

Cases like this don't get any more damning than this short of a guilty investigation.

[killerjester]

So, VOTE: Idiotking.

^ goodposting

[killerjester]

No, fuck him. My post is a better representation of IK's play. NS is just trying to sound like he's not sheeping my brilliance by saying something I haven't.

[killerjester]

You're useless. Please die.

[killerjester]

How could you possible think NS is a good lynch today?

[killerjester]

I don't think scum would claim a doc save on me and then try to convince everyone I'm not town.

UNVOTE:

PoPP, who are the scum?
Triangle, who are the scum?

[killerjester]

You're lynching the claimed doctor over absolute scum?

[killerjester]

My gut doesn't agree because he's honestly said nothing about Melmond all game until this point. Not willing to string up a claimed doc just yet though.

[killerjester]

However it is interesting to note I don't think NS and IK are scum together.

[killerjester]

Barring the very remote possibility that both (Cheery is lying) AND ONE OF (scum didn't do anything on N1) OR (I am lying), yes, it seems like Melmond is a confirmed townie.

FTFY

[killerjester]

VOTE: triangle123

This one's scum. I promise.

[killerjester]

I'd honestly rather lynch triangle over IAI.

what

[killerjester]

Then vote triangle/CES.

[killerjester]

Don't do it just because I'm telling you to.

I'd honestly rather lynch triangle over IAI.

Take your own advice.

[killerjester]

Heavily distancing Lupo D1 while still supporting (and voting for) a Hellhound lynch. This is some-what explained by saying the Hellhound lynch should've given us valuable information about BBstar and Lupo, but this aspect in particular is never quite followed up on in terms of what a town flip meant for the cases of BBstar and Lupo. Has the feel of scum that was just looking for an excuse to lynch town.

Alot of her reads in #402 feel fabricated, especially the ones on Idiotking, Kublai Khan, and pappums rat as the following interactions are the ONLY ones she's had with the players for the entire game.

Idiotking - RVS only
pappums rat - possible sheep in regards to the Hellhound wagon
Kublai Khan - asked for his reads once

That's the extent that jumps out at me, but I could be missing something. You're highly encouraged to go take a look for yourself.

[killerjester]

It's too early to lynch a claimed doc. I jumped on triangle because I want her lynched.

[killerjester]

Because I wasn't asked to, I suppose. I promise I didn't just pick a name out of my hat.

[killerjester]

More importantly, I'd be interested in why #682 is scummier than #691. Thoughts, IK?

[killerjester]

I feel like you're stretching your case and trying to find excuses to call me scummy.

I explained why I voted to you in #701

because you asked

and now you're ragging on me for not doing it earlier? That's like me saying, "If it bothered you that much, why didn't you bring it up in your #699 post? It's so scummy of you to wait until #702 to point it out!"

[killerjester]

Not everyone follows Idiotking's Guide to Scumhunting.

Originally my question to you in #723 what rhetorical, but since you still have your panties in a bunch over the timing of giving my reasoning, now it isn't.

I do appreciate that killerjester actually just gave his reasons rather than getting all snooty and condescending.

Why didn't you say [your reasons] when you were making your vote? What possible good is a vote without an explanation? I mean, you just explained it now, but why not earlier?

So

A)

If the timing is that much of a dealbreaker why did you wait to bring it up? and

B)

How can you appreciate giving my reads and have a problem with giving my reads at the same time?

[killerjester]

Votes are serious things, as are scumreads, and require immediate reasons.

I disagree.

[killerjester]

Well you're being useless.

CES, I'm interested in hearing more about KK. How do those interactions seem off?

[killerjester]

UNVOTE:

Was the entire fucking Hellhound wagon town? I refuse to believe this. I feel like Lupo would've been lynched D1 if there were no scum driving Hellhound to the noose. I need to reread.

[killerjester]

I can see KK-scum. Maybe. But who was trying to mislynch Hellhound then? A godfather triangle?

[killerjester]

Why does there have to be one? Because of some silly notion that it was a counterwagon to Lupo? Hellhound always looked like he was going to be the lynch when I was reading it.

I feel it in my bones.

A godfather Melmond is also possible, although it doesn't wash with the doc/no kill business. I'm inclined to believe the roleclaims, so the first place to look skeptically is the results.

Melmond doesn't feel like scum to me.

[killerjester]

IAI you think the entire scum team was lurkesque? Really? Truthfully I'm of the opinion that NS and KK can't be scum together because I feel like of the three at least one of them would be active. Well..that and my primal instinct that scum was on the Hellhound wagon.

[killerjester]

On second thought.. I agree with you. Because with all the claims KK is probably some sort of scum PR.

VOTE: KK

[killerjester]

CES and PoPP

[killerjester]

Is CES just scummy for being triangle's replacement?

Again, I don't think anyone should be called scummy for being someone who seemed scummy. I think they should be given a new clean sheet to work on.

@kj, explain why PoPP is scummy.

Someone has to be scum from that wagon

[killerjester]

No. I've expressed since early D3 that I thought there was at least one scum on the Hellhound wagon. I still feel that way.

[killerjester]

VOTE: Nobody Special

Not only does even/odd cop fits together mechanically, it is also reinforced by how pappum's believed Cheery's claim at face value.

[killerjester]

Wait was there an innocent or a guilty on bbstar?

Am I supposed to believe there's a miller AND a godfather AND a roleblocker where we only get two halves of a cop and a vigilante?

[killerjester]

Oh well my apologies for being skeptical. The point I was trying to make is if you had an inno on BBstar I'd suspect that Poppy was scum.

VOTE: BBstar

[killerjester]

Did we win?

[killerjester]

Cool. Apologies to Idiotking. But not too much, cos we won anyway. Your fakeclaim was good too.

[killerjester]

Clearly he put some thought into it and knew what he was doing. It's not like he was fakeclaiming for the lulz.