Mini 1414: Mafia and Werewolves - Game Over

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: Revenus

Clearly scum.

[JasonWazza]

The fact that your joking about thing's isn't good.

RVS is supposed to get us information, not to be a big joke that gets us no where.

[JasonWazza]

RVS is supposed to get us information, not to be a big joke that gets us no where.

RVS IS a big joke and the fact that you pretend like you're able to get information from it is stupid; anything gained from RVS is negligible at best. Don't be retarded.

And to director; you can call me scared, but you're wrong.

You CAN get information from it, that is the idea of RVS to get us information that we can start the game from, You pretending it's just a big joke is terrible.

Yes you can be joking in it, but pretending everything you have done is a joke because your getting suspicion is bad, and extremely scummy.

[JasonWazza]

The vote isn't a joke, there is a vote there, how is that a joke?

But i find it funny you only addressed that part.

P-Edit: So being a prick is gonna help the town?

Seriously the suspicion is not retarded.

[JasonWazza]

Write the post up anyway Hume?

He could (i kinda hope) be faking it.

P-Edit: so many ninja's

[JasonWazza]

Hush, you're dead.

He's not fully dead until the mod confirms it.

Don't tell me what to do scum.

Ok so your saying there is 2 scum teams (mafia + werewolf from the name of the game) of which one has a day vig?

I think your being really stupid right now.

[JasonWazza]

@MOD: Was Revenus actually DayVig'd in post 32

If that isn't the case (which i now highly doubt considering a VC was posted) then i think Josh has some serious explaining to do.

@

JasonWazza

;

VOTE: Revenus

Clearly scum.

-Why?

Read the next part

@

Everyone

;

First post: joke about RVS voting to avoid RVS voting
Second post: This vote is not random
Third post: Says the vote is random even though it's not random, sets up future target (probably gonna tunnel him by the end of D1) and also attack on intelligence for good measure

This post does not read town to me for the following reasons.
- Firstly, there is nothing inherently scummy about avoiding the random voting stage. There is a large segment of town players who do not see any value in the random voting stage.
- Secondly, I think Revenus's second post clearly was a random post or quasi-random post. I can understand one misreading of it, as the director may have done. However, especially after Revenus pointed out it wasn't a serious post, I think most people reading that should see it was not intended seriously. This has two consequences - firstly that actually Revenus did enter the RVS, nullifying evilpacman18's first point and third point, and secondly that the vote was not fully rational and was at least partially informed by chance, nullifying evilpacman18's second point.
- Thirdly, as town, if you think someone is setting up a future target at the start of D1, you don't shout all about it. When you think "Player X is going to target Player Y", that's a hypothesis. You find out if this hypothesis has any truth or not by testing it. You do that by waiting, and seeing if Player X

is

actually targeting Player Y. What evilpacman18 has done is prevent his hypothesis from being tested at all, and put forth an assertion with no backing, in a single line.
- Fourth, although I wish it were otherwise, it's not the case that town = polite and scum = rude. There's no particular reason why Revenus insulting people necessarily makes him scum, it could just make him a rather unhelpful town player. There are rather a lot of unhelpful town players.

Firstly, Who gives a shit, that wasn't the bad part
Secondly, so he's allowed to be against random voting and then random vote? Even though he see's no point in it? I honestly don't see how it nullifys ANY of his point's other then the fact that you are willing to bypass them by any means nessecary.

Fact, clearly he is against RVing, Also Fact, He RV'd.

Call me odd but most of the time i don't do something i am against.

Thirdly, It doesn't stop something look like it is going that way.
Forthly, Being a prick doesn't make him anything but anti-town i agree, but the way he is RVing makes him seem anti town.

The only random vote in RVS is the first one. Everyone else then reacts to that vote and makes a decision with some (albeit very small) amount of knowledge. You reacted to that first vote by deciding to not vote, then voted on someone who didn't jump on a quick wagon, then went on the attack.

There are elements of this I agree with and elements I disagree with. I mean, the first vote, if you look at it, wasn't actually random. Someone voted for GoldenMean because they dislike maths. They didn't throw a dice or consult an RNG, they formed a reason and moved from that reason to a vote. We call it random because the reason was irrelevant to the actual game - the reason for our vote will produce no better an outcome than random. As such, there are definitely more random votes than solely the first one. If I am the first poster and just say "I'm voting Player X because I dislike consonants", then the next poster doesn't really have that much of a relevant reason either in the sense that reason is strongly likely to produce any particular outcome. The more information we get, the less random our votes will become, but it isn't an instant process.

TL;DR
His vote wasn't random but in the sense of information it was.

Also from a read of other games of yours, you're not nearly so hostile or pretentious of town. You sound like being in the informed minority is giving you a superiority complex.

I dislike this post because it isn't even true. Take a look at Newbie 1156 in ISO. This is exactly how Revenus plays as town. I don't like it. I think it's poor play for town. But that doesn't change the fact that's how Revenus plays as town.

I love how people use the meta defense, if you are gonna seriously defend people with meta prove that he doesn't do it as scum as well.

And to piggyoff that; the director's reaction to evilpacman's claim is townish because A. it implies he went through and glanced at the games and B. came to a good conclusion.

Not really. The name of this thread implies there are two mafia teams. piggyoff could be scum, and B. would still be a useful conclusion because from his perspective lynching enemy scum actually makes the odds much better for him than lynching enemy town.

Gonna bang on a bit of theory here, Killing the enemy scum team is only actually good for either scum team if you feel the scum team is gonna kill one of you, more kills on town= game over sooner= less slips

On more general thoughts, I'd like it if people started putting slightly more elaborated reasons in their posts. I'm seeing a lot of "you've done X, therefore you are scum", without explaining why doing X necessitates that someone is scum. As for me, I'm going to put my vote on VOTE: evilpacman18 because I'd like to hear why he decided that using incomplete meta was valuable and why asserting someone is creating future targets on the basis of a single post is of any use.

OK let's turn this around, why is using Revenus's uncomplete meta valuable?

It goe's both fucking ways your using only his town meta, does he do it as scum?

If yes then this defense doesn't actually make the tell town, it makes it null, in which case he still could be very easily scum.

^ brilliant town post by hume

It's just so beautiful -sniff-

Hey what is your opinion on everything else Jacob?
Or are you gonna be a useless anti-town pain in the ass?

He's saying that it's a waste because he doesn't care if it's town or scum. Either way this is a good kill.

If it was a good kill, therefore by definition it would not be a waste.

Kill the lurker is a good kill but can easily be made out to be a waste.

Same with almost any kill, the idea of the kill is to hit scum, not hit the anti-town Town players.

[JasonWazza]

- Jason wall (#63). An attack on the Hume wall, clearly an attempt to undermine the post with respect to its defense on Rev. Attacks Jacob for Providing no content and just posting anti-town fluff.

FTFY

[JasonWazza]

ISO him and you will understand.

2 posts, first one liking the hume wall, second one saying he is just going to be playing anti-town.

[JasonWazza]

Why are you content with jacob?

[JasonWazza]

Because at least Jacob has given out some reads and is honest.

Please tell me you are drunk. Because that would explain why you are defending a player who has literally posted nothing of substance. In fact there is literally nothing he has posted that can be manipulated into a potential read.

+1 to this, liking a wall =/= giving a read.

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: Revenus
VOTE: Hiraki

[JasonWazza]

On a "serious" note, Xergus why the sheeping Jason, I agree he's town (his play here matches how I've seen him play in other games as town, See Mini 1397 (he replaced out Day 1/2 but anyway) and Micro 104 to give you some idea of what I mean.)

Did you also find games where he was mafia and played noticeably different? Because otherwise 'Jason plays like Jason' tells us absolutely nothing about his alignment.

I swear i (and a few others) just finished saying this about Revenus, are you actually reading the game?

UNVOTE: Hiraki
VOTE: YOLO

UNVOTE: Revenus
VOTE: Hiraki

What are you doing

Playing to my wincon and getting reads, you? (btw there was a logical thought coming up to this vote i just didn't vote at the time)

[JasonWazza]

Jason don't be such a prostitute with your vote, it's annoying.

You saying i shouldn't scumhunt?

[JasonWazza]

I'm saying it's more effective to scumhunt without throwing your vote around every time you have the slightest suspicion.

Voting so often is antitown.

Bullshit, this is how i play and it isn't anti-town i'm not gonna change just because you don't like it.

[JasonWazza]

Jason are you voting YOLO just because he doesn't understand points that have been made? Because to me YOLO seems more towny then a lot of other players in this game.

Because anyone reading the game and actually scum-hunting would have seen the same argument like 10 posts before and not just repeated it.

Not to mention he hasn't actually talked about much, how can you get a town read on someone with 3 posts that actually has next to no scum-hunting or content on any posts?

[JasonWazza]

As long as your vote comes back to Revenus at some point.

Least he is one of the ones that is scum hunting and not just hiding at the back atm.

Put it like this, he may be scum, even scum can be useful to the town for now (2 scum teams means that scum have to find the other team at least)

(plus his scum hunting doesn't seem all that contrived atm)

[JasonWazza]

I do not like this at all.

Not at all.

Navarre still needs to die nowish.

Navarre has done more then a few people, why is he the only one that needs to die?

[JasonWazza]

On a "serious" note, Xergus why the sheeping Jason, I agree he's town (his play here matches how I've seen him play in other games as town, See Mini 1397 (he replaced out Day 1/2 but anyway) and Micro 104 to give you some idea of what I mean.)

Did you also find games where he was mafia and played noticeably different? Because otherwise 'Jason plays like Jason' tells us absolutely nothing about his alignment.

I swear i (and a few others) just finished saying this about Revenus

/care

The voting rationale in the last few pages really seems off. Josh, in post 73 you literally say Revenus is scum, you call for more votes on Revenus in 103, and yet you're now voting Hiraki because you don't like a certain post of his? That makes no sense. If you're as deteremined as you seemed to be that Revenus is scum, you wouldn't be swayed so easily by a single post. I'd like you to explain yourself or keep your vote consistent with your attitude.

Since i'm assuming you fucked up the name between me and Josh (which would make sense)

The simple fact is this,

THERE IS MORE THEN 1 SCUM PLAYER

If you can't comprehend this GTFO.

With Revenus scum hunting he is more useful then almost half of the players in the game (you included) to the town and yes scum can be useful to the town.

Put it like this, he may be scum, even scum can be useful to the town for now (2 scum teams means that scum have to find the other team at least)

No. By this logic, we shouldn't vote anyone since townies are useful to town by definition and scum can be useful for finding opposing scum. That's not going to get us anywhere. If you find scum, vote scum.

No by this logic we don't lynch people who would be useful to the town ie. Pro-town, meaning we lynch people who are playing anti-town.

You are either stupid (possible) or just trying to misrep me (highly likely)


Hiraki why did you avoid this

I do not like this at all.

Not at all.

Navarre still needs to die nowish.

Navarre has done more then a few people, why is he the only one that needs to die?

[JasonWazza]

Because he's not?

Seriously you just avoided the question completely.

UNVOTE: YOLO
VOTE: Hiraki

Why is Navarre one of the people who needs to die?

[JasonWazza]

Oh I misread your question--that was a my bad on my part. For some reason I keep translating it to "Why is Navarre the only people who needs to die"

Don't ask why.

Anywho.

Vote: Navarre

for addressing nothing

Add in 3 Votes for 4 Posts, a nice OMGUS in the last post with some nonsensical logic gets you to a nice newbie scum status.

But really--that should've been obvious. Did you read his ISO?

He hasn't been all that scummy imo (that "reaction test" is scummy as hell but whatevs)

Hiraki's probably not scum, he's just stubborn. Anyway busy weekend. Catching up.

Why stubborn =/= Scum, i think he has been pretty scummy so far.

It's not EvilPamCan

This is now your nickname

WTSnacks seems content with my wagon even as he sits on his RVS vote; oh wait, that's because the only thing he's commented on is me.

You can chalk this up to confusion between hydra heads; we're kinda new at this.

Who's the hydra of? >.>

Anyway why is Hiraki still living?

[JasonWazza]

(that "reaction test" is scummy as hell but whatevs)

Which is why I've been watching him.

Bullshit he only just did it

(btw why do you keep quoting "Josh"?)

Why stubborn =/= Scum

Because that's stupid?

Scum can be stubborn, and sometimes it is in there best interest to be stubborn

Anyway why is Hiraki still living?

Even AJ has more of a right to say this. What the fuck?

If you're making it out to the mistake I've made, and noted on, but you don't agree with my logic, you are being dumb. I'll admit I made a mistake but I eventually answered your question. It's not like it was a hard one to answer.

Also Navarre's post makes just about no sense and really sounds like a drunkard. Needs to die, now.

Your scummy, i have already noted that, Navarre seems town, noted that as well.

You saying he needs to die now isn't helpful, you've said that like at least ten times already.

P-edit: lols

[JasonWazza]

This quote:

Any Revenus is doing a better job of looking like town.

Followed by 4-5 posts calling the director scum says to me that you think the director is scummier than revenus. Gauging whether or not the wagon is going anywhere reads like scum trying not to make waves.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: evilpacman

Not only this but he then says this

I figured I'd gauge whether or not the wagon is going anywhere. Like I said I'm not the type to vote often and don't believe votes create pressure.

My vote is still on Revenus whose lynch I still wouldn't mind

. If it becomes likely that director will be lynched then I'll vote him

If you think someone is actting town, why would you still be willing to lynch them.

Though i agree with the reasoning for the JS wagon i also know that in another game i played he was town and

acted the same

acted as lurky looking at an ISO he looks even more scummy.

UNVOTE: Hiraki
VOTE: Jacob Savage

Spoiler: Cause i don't want this massive wall

Ok, onto Xegarus

Post #6: RVS
Post #29: Asks me who I think is most likely to be "faking" that I'm scum on my wagon (null), Asks Navarre why he isn't commenting on anyone (null/town)
Post #49: Questions Lyman on his usage of language (null)
Post #51: Oh, his RVS vote was actually serious (null/scum)
Post #62: Argument over semantics (null)
Post #113: Vote on Hiraki out of nowhere (scummy)
Post #115: Asked for reasons on Hiraki vote, tells us he'll give them "later" (scummy, because he still hasn't given any; looks like he was hoping other people would construct an argument for him right now IMO)
Post #147: Talks about Navarre not commenting on a vote (even though he's done the same thing????) and that voting without a reason would tick someone off (even though he's doing the same thing????)



Ok nevermind, this dude is far scummier

Vote:Xegarus

Everything in my post 147 was to explain my vote. And I was talking about hiraki.
I said hiraki has not commented on my vote of him, i said that me not giving a reason would have ticked him off.
And he still hasn't said anything about my vote on him, This strikes me a really odd becuase he is on L-1.
I have been busy and still am, but i will try to post more from now on.

Why only address one vote out of 6 others?
Especially one with no reason that is basically 0 to defend against anyway.


Also @YOLO you have no grounds to attack based on activity so don't even go there, and btw 2 bandwagons day 1 isn't that big a deal really, you usually get at least 2 bandwagons in any game (this includes 5p micros) it's how people get reactions.

If we did it your way we'd have nothing

P-Edit: Do a Jason iso

[JasonWazza]

I've also noticed that there is always dual wagons going side-by-side, first it was Revenus/Hiraki, now its EPM/Jacob. With two scum teams, this makes sense.

Have any of you people actually played mafia before?

COMPETING WAGONS IS NORMAL FOR ONE SCUM TEAM AS WELL.

[JasonWazza]

First thing is first

Viomi, you are awesome, just saying that is the best replacement wall i have ever seen.

And finally the walls break out i'm so happy right now

Now, I'm not going to repost AJ's ISO for the fifth time in this post. I realize that if you've actually gotten here (EPM/Jason), you deserve a prize. I have no prizes.

FTFY

On a "serious" note, Xergus why the sheeping Jason, I agree he's town (his play here matches how I've seen him play in other games as town, See Mini 1397 (he replaced out Day 1/2 but anyway) and Micro 104 to give you some idea of what I mean.)

Did you also find games where he was mafia and played noticeably different? Because otherwise 'Jason plays like Jason' tells us absolutely nothing about his alignment.

I swear i (and a few others) just finished saying this about Revenus, are you actually reading the game?

UNVOTE: Hiraki
VOTE: YOLO

Jason no! You were headed in the right direction and everything ;~;

I still don't think it's a wrong direction, I think there are multiple scum i vote who i feel is scummiest (or vote to show this person is being scummy) doesn't mean that i stopped seeing Hiraki's scumminess.

UNVOTE: Revenus
VOTE: Hiraki

What are you doing

He's dancing, what the fuck does it look like he's doing?

Once the game is over this is going onto my wiki and possibly my Signature.

He hasn't been all that scummy imo (that "reaction test" is scummy as hell but whatevs)

Reaction tests scummy?
Tell me, have you even played mafia before?

I have but sometimes "reaction test's" (note the quotes this time) look like something forced from a bad move that could easily get the person lynched ("nah it's cool guys that was totally a reaction test")

[JasonWazza]

Actually i wouldn't mind bringing TheDirector's intent back into play.

UNVOTE: JacobSavage
VOTE: Hiraki

L-1

[JasonWazza]

Oh forgot to add my scum reads:
Hikari - Good player, Scum as fuck
EPC - Medium player, Constant defense of hikari = scumbuddy?
Navarre - Lurker, probably scum, besides nobody likes lurkers
Xegarus - Same as above, lurker.

Wait you think that there is 2 teams of 2, one with Hiraki/EPM the other with 2 lurkers, sorry but i slightly doubt the chances of that, and noticing the deadline i think i will put my vote back on JS (i thought we were down to like 2-3 days damn 10 day deadlines screwing with my system >.>)

UNVOTE: Hiraki
VOTE: JacobSavage

[JasonWazza]

The Navarre one

The dayvig was obvious in it's reaction testness.

[JasonWazza]

You were supposed to come the logical conclusion that I also think he's town and based on meta knowledge, I'm more likely to be right.

meta =/= more likely to be right.

That is retarded.

Also can we easy up on the walls, I barley read them normally but when theres so many of them.

Walls are a part of the game, man up and read them (not like they take THAT long anyway)

[JasonWazza]

The fact that they are defending eachother a lot means they're scumbuddies, right?
You don't often see this kind of chainsaw defense, and when you do it's almost always scumbuddies.
How does that not make sense? Yes it's a completely stupid tactic for scum usually, but since most scum bus they might've agreed on defending together since it's not a very common scum tactic.

But anyways that's just a bunch of WIFOM, but answer me this:
Why else would they defend eachother so much?
I get a little bit defense of a friend you've been playing with for a long time, I've sure done it, but this isn't just defense. It's CHAINSAW defense. He's defending everything about hikari he can, and that gives me really bad vibes.

Defending =/= scumbuddies, Town defend town reads (i have done this as town).

Also i wouldn't call it chainsaw defense, unless your honestly telling me that EPM has like 7-8 scum reads.

THIS POST
THANK YOU JASON
<3

Dunno what bit your refering to but your welcome

Yolo seemed helpful at first and then he just dissappeared. WTF.

You mean the guy with 6 posts? how exactly did he disappear? He was barely here in the first place.

He's a completely different player there. He's intelligent, lays stuff out.... Unlike in this thread he's flailing like a fucking monkey!

a) what game is this in? I haven't seen him act all that intelligent before (no offense Revneus)
b) How many games are you using as a sample size cause i am pretty sure i have seen this play from him as town

Okay what is with this game? I mean seriously, I see most of you posting elsewhere around the site and not in this thread. It's like lurkerville in here. Holy shit this game has got to be the slowest I've played yet.

I was getting there, can't always update in all my games at once.

I think it could be EPM setting to

WK

off the Hiraki... That's the only reason I've been worried about Hiraki so far and not pressuring further (besides arguing with him is basically inciting rage).

What is WK?

Meta being used to say someone isn't scum I don't listen to. However, when it looks like you're doing something because you're under more pressure (being scum can be a lot more pressure as well) then I look into it a bit.

*smacks Viomi on the nose with a newspaper*

Meta should only ever be used to cancel out tells (meaning it's playstyle over alignment) one way or the other not prove tells.

[JasonWazza]

Town
Violi
Revenus
JasonWazza

Null
Evilpacman18
The director
Hiraki

Slight scum
Navarre

Scum zone
JacobSavage
Josh Lyman

No read
Aj the epic
Xegarus
WT Snacks

This is kinda pathetic and looks more like an activity list rather then anything, town being highly active scum being hardly active.

[JasonWazza]

Also i wouldn't call it chainsaw defense, unless your honestly telling me that EPM has like 7-8 scum reads.

Would you mind clarifying this for me?

Well Chainsaw defense usually consists of Player A being called scummy by players B/C and then Player D (the one chainsaw defending) attacking Players B/C for attacking Player A

Hence if EPM was chainsaw defending Hiraki he'd probably have to have 7-8 scum reads (the people who called Hiraki scum)

He's a completely different player there. He's intelligent, lays stuff out.... Unlike in this thread he's flailing like a fucking monkey!

a) what game is this in? I haven't seen him act all that intelligent before (no offense Revneus)
b) How many games are you using as a sample size cause i am pretty sure i have seen this play from him as town

Scratch what I said. He's playing just as intelligently as he did in his town games (which is actually rather intelligent). I just didn't see it because of Hiraki bashing him and him flailing back when he was under pressure at the beginning of the game.
Here, I'll do it for you:

He's a completely different player there.

He's intelligent, lays stuff out.

... Unlike in this thread he's flailing like a fucking monkey!

No i meant more he wasn't more intelligent in other games so i was wondering how he appeared so much more intelligent.

[JasonWazza]

So, Jason, eh? Noted two things about you, as I read this here thread. First off, you've been unusually mercenary with your votes. I don't like that. Secondly, and more importantly, you have a way high words to content ratio. So I took a look at your meta.

Well, I look at the very first game I can find with you in it, and lo and behold! Your posting style is exactly the same. Cue my dismay. Until, that is, I ISO the mod, and find out you flipped scum.

Bye-bye, lad: VOTE: JasonWazza

Mercenary i assuming meaning willing to use my vote as pressure (playstyle tell)

Also using one game that i was scum in as meta and not comparing to my town games is pathetic, i tend to play extremely similar as town and as scum.

[JasonWazza]

Ok just realized you replaced Xegarus who has fuck all content, so mae, please answer me a few questions

Why did you only meta check using a scum game?
Why did you meta and iso me of all people?
Have you meta and isoed other people in this game?
Why after this game just had a major talk about how meta is fucked did you just decide to use a meta tell?

[JasonWazza]

Ok just realized you replaced Xegarus who has fuck all content, so mae, please answer me a few questions

Why did you only meta check using a scum game?
Why did you meta and iso me of all people?
Have you meta and isoed other people in this game?
Why after this game just had a major talk about how meta is fucked did you just decide to use a meta tell?

1) I didn't.
2) You're scum.
3) Yes.
4) Because it's not, and I only did it after finding you to be scum.

Bullshit, if you did you would know i play similar enough as scum vs. town that meta is beyond a useless tell on me.
No i am not.
Alrighty then, how many and which players, also since you have only managed to "find" (and i use the term in the loosest possible manner) one scum i have to say that you are likely talking shit, there is likely at least 4 scum players in the game.
Pathetic.

Especially since the fact that we JUST had a talk about why we aren't going to use meta and now you waltz in here and use it.

There's no way you read ANY of this thread.

Bugger off. I've read the damn thread, and I actually wish I hadn't. That way, I'd've avoided your posts.

So in other words you went against what the town thinks is viable?

UNVOTE: JacobSavage
VOTE: Maenara

Insta tunnel is bad
Meta Tell's are pathetic
Case on me is based on a game (of which we have no evidence of, i for one don't even know which game this is) in which i was scum.

P-Edit: I do

[JasonWazza]

Hey i'm Mercenary with my vote remember

Seriously that is a terrible tell, it just means i vote my highest scum read, or vote for pressure WHICH IS ALL PRO-TOWN

[JasonWazza]

"Tiny, but fierce".

Now that you're done with the blatant insults, Viomi, one might question your motives for acting like a cheerleader, the way you do at the moment.

Jason, the problem is that you're

not

doing the vote-switching in a pro-town manner. If you're voting for pressure, you can't just jump off

now

because a replacement is pestering you. On the other hand, if it's because you've got a serious read on someone, it's also questionable how two posts from a replacement is enough to outweigh that.

You're not acting particularly consistently.

Order of events

a) JS has been lurking the fuck out, i vote him for pressure.
b) replacement of someone who seemed somewhat scummy comes in and does extremely scummy things
c) I vote Scummy person

Your not pestering me you seriously seem scummy as fuck for that entrance.

[JasonWazza]

Surely, if I am that scummy, even with provocation, continuing to debate me would be sufficient to gather up momentum for my lynch? Whereas the pressuring does seem to falter when you, you know, aren't actually doing it.

Yes but there is a massive difference between voting to pressure and voting to lynch scum.

I figure at this point my vote is fine where it is.

[JasonWazza]

Because guess what? I was in a game with him where he flipped scum and I have a townread on him right now.

Watch out Revenus, that's cheerleading

[JasonWazza]

Revenus, Hume replaced out

[JasonWazza]

My reads?

Town: Director, Hiraki, Yolo.
Scum: Navarre, Aj the Epic, WT Snacks

The rest are too null at the moment.

Lol you know you were getting fucked and decided to stop calling me scum?

Micro 113. But I'm getting cold feet on this, 'cause he ain't reacting the way I'd expect him to do.

Cause a five player game has much of a likeness to a 13 player closed normal

The major difference in that game is if i died i lost.

The fact that you ran in and are calling him scum ONLY because of his previous game is strange because it means that you came in, looked at the playerlist, then iso'd a players game in a previous game instead of finding content from THIS game to call him scum with.

That's A. fucking disingenuous, and B. fucking stupid.

But it's not what I actually did. I read the game, thought his logic sounded off, but couldn't put my finger on it, found him voting for wagons that I thought made little sense, saw relatively little content compared to his activity, and then decided to look up his usual playstyle. As a result of all this, I decided that I needed to drill him for more info.

As for what I think of Hume, I thought he seemed really town. On the other hand, I didn't like what I read of his replacement prior to my joining, and since my "waltzing in here", her actions have mostly consisted of being pissed at me, which is neither here nor there, and certainly not anything I can work with. I'm not willing to vote for her yet, 'cause I think I just don't get her playing style - I'm not certain enough for it to outweigh my impression of Hume, at any rate.

With all that said, I've probably got as much from Jason as I can for now, and it hasn't cemented my read the way I thought it would.

Hence, for now, I'd like to look elsewhere. WT Snacks has definitely not contributed enough, and if nothing else, owes us a follow-up on the alleged ISO of Hiraki.

VOTE: WT Snacks

Lol you need to "drill me for info" What a load of bullshit, you called me scum flat out and now you know that your gonna have players kicking your ass for being stupid your backpedaling.

This is crap and you know it.

[JasonWazza]

Maenara voting the most towny player in the game?

I must have a whole fucking cheer squad yeah Maenara?

[JasonWazza]

Can you two make two organized cases on each other?

I actually think you guys are prob all town (regardless of what I said about Xegarus before) but I need to confirm.

That is directed at me and Maenara right?

UNVOTE: JacobSavage
VOTE: Maenara

Insta tunnel is bad
Meta Tell's are pathetic
Case on me is based on a game (of which we have no evidence of, i for one don't even know which game this is) in which i was scum.

Pretty much covers the bulk of it, not to mention all her reactions are TERRIBLE, she has back pedaled hard once people came in and she realized it wasn't going to fly, and now seems to just be picking the easiest wagon she can.

Certainly not counting on Jason, who you have buttered up more than a fat kid does to a dinner roll, but that is besides the point. I can only hope the other scum team shoots you N1.

Yes you can't count on 2 people out of 13, meaning there is still what 11 for a case to be heard by?

As pathetic as this is

VOTE: director

This should still be on Maenara

[JasonWazza]

I can only hope the other scum team shoots you N1.

If this is what you mean that it's not the slip you think it is, he is refering to you as scum meaning the other scum team would have to kill you.

[JasonWazza]

Viomi, title of the game

[JasonWazza]

flavor wise, the town could be the mafia and the scum could be werewolves. or vice versa.

Now your stretching to get this to be a viable theory.

[JasonWazza]

no, I'm just telling you that we have no way of knowing if there's more than one scum team.

No your stretching, really really far.

2) Me citing meta as my only reason (Which you then chose to latch onto), and you not liking this.

FTFY

@Jason and EPM: Yeah, when Jason was talking about the whole what chainsaw defense was I was very confused because that's not what I remember it being.

I thought chainsaw defense was just when somebody was hardcore defending somebody.

Ok maybe my interpretation of Chainsaw Defense is wrong, i thought that was what it meant oh well, live and learn lols

Also, the case on me is:

Some of you think there is two scum teams.
I don't agree.
So I must be scum?

I don't see how that makes any sense at all. I have a different opinion on how many teams I think there are, and I don't see how that makes me scum.

The Case isn't this it's that your stretching that there isn't 2 scum teams in order to make it a reasoning for a lynch.

btw speaking of an SK, 4 scum is a lot and it seems to be the general consensus if we're assuming two teams. I'd wager that it's more likely a werewolf is on a team by himself and can't be NK'd by mafia. Or vice versa, the pluralization of 'werewolf' in the title kinda throws that off.

Werewolf, if not the Russian version, is actually supposedly a usual sole role. Having never played against one, all I know is mafia theory and research on the slot. So, should we predict that route, I'd imagine only three total scum.

I'd have to disagree usually (and this is mostly from experience) a scum team has no less then 2 members (note that SK isn't on a scum based TEAM), so i wouldn't be surprised if we have at least 4 scum, possibly 5 if there is an sk (though i think balance wise it would be too swingy for a normal)

Now here is my case on Viomi (no hard feelings over this i hope)

a) The stretching to make a viable theory, it seriously looks like it is coming from someone on the scum team and i can't wrap my head around the way she is approaching it to be logical from any townie standpoint

b)

But, wait, now I'm suddenly feeling conflicted on my vote because two of the scummier people in the game (Hiraki/WTSnacks) are both endorsing this lynch.


Mmmmm.

More than one scum team

Well fuck you must have changed your thinking since then ^

Until it was convenient she thought there was 2 scum teams.

UNVOTE: Maenara
VOTE: Viomi

[JasonWazza]

So you were fine accepting there was two scum teams until you could use it against someone.

Why use a possibility you don't believe as an explanation for something?

[JasonWazza]

Then how was what Director said a slip when it happened?

If there was a possibility of 2 teams then it wouldn't be a slip.

[JasonWazza]

Seer is basically a cop for werewolves, Macho can't be protected at night.

It's funny how we lost a seer and a werewolf though.

So many places i want to place my vote.

I think i will start here.

VOTE: Josh Lyman

[JasonWazza]

Possible? Yes

Likely? No

[JasonWazza]

Also i think a vig would have shot one of the more inactive people

[JasonWazza]

5 scum in a 13 player game doesn't sound balanced to me (8 town means a mislynch could put us in a town auto loss situation quite quickly)

usually these games are 3v1v9, (1 being an SK) 3v10, 2v2v9.

[JasonWazza]

Now he is scum budd's with Maenara and Revenus.

Keep going with that theory though it's clearly working.

Fact: No one trait defines scum buddys because of the fact that people look for these pairings thus scum teams go against this.

[JasonWazza]

There isn't a case on me.

I find it how responsive this is to anything asked of him that he can just swat away, there is a case or there wouldn't be 3 votes and this is a clear example

[JasonWazza]

*i find it funny

[JasonWazza]

@Mod: Quit lurking and prod WT Snacks and yourself

This game is extremely slow.

Not to mention full of scum fucks.

@Viomi;
How is YOLO jumping on the biggest wagon after he just gave reasoning scum?

How is Josh coming in and jumping on a secondary wagon with 0 explanation not scum?

@YOLO;
Are you only gonna do policy lynches?

Cause if so i will put your head on the chopping block with the 3 you named

@Maenara;
Get over the Viomi shit please, not helpful to have a bitch fight.

@EPM;
How does 3 pages of town reading stuff get rid of the entire scum fest that is Director?


@Everyone;
How is Josh coming in and posting one line saying there is no case not lurking scum?

[JasonWazza]

@Mod: Actually well your at it prod Jacob who hasn't posted this day phase

[JasonWazza]

I'm more concerned that the mod should be prodding himself and hasn't been on site otherwise

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: Viomi

Reasoning;

The whole "there could be just 1 scum team" argument still seems to be coming from mafia.
Her interactions with WT consists (of what i can see as) a really soft bus and doesn't really look at WT that hard.
Could also be a partner for her hard press against Hiraki "your a good player but scum" in her first few posts
The hard push on Director for the "slip"

[JasonWazza]

Now that Jacob is done with his conveniently timed VLA, I'm thinking we might all wanna hear something from him, actually. WT was an odd kill - Almost like something done by someone who hadn't really been following the game.

VOTE: Jacob

(( Yes, I'm blatantly not taking a stance until we've got everyone back in the game and with no ready excusess for not participating ))

So Viomi was with Hiraki and you were with WT?

He's a hydra and did nothing but lurked, he was either a PR or scum or a really pathetic hydra

As for Jacob i think lynching him is a mistake for now, he normally lurks like this so it's not really a scum tactic for him.

[JasonWazza]

I am now even more sure Viomi is scum, that was a shit reason to jump on that wagon.

Clearly considering two scum players were shot AND 2 PR's were shot, then scum is trying to shoot PR's/Scum.

[JasonWazza]

yeah the fact that the 4 shot people were PR/Scum couldn't be scum looking for PR tells rather then the townie like people

[JasonWazza]

Posting from phone:
Viomi, what makes you think Revenus is obvtown?

+1

[JasonWazza]

Give me a few minutes to wake up but I'm pretty sure i half layed out a (half ass) case in my vote post so either your not reading, or your being deliberately annoying.

[JasonWazza]

Yes attack me on playstyle tells.

I don't mention everyone all the time in a 13 player game, HOLY FUCK I MUST BE SCUM.

This can be put down to something as simple as playstyle, i don't gun after everyone at once cause that takes too long to do.

Also the "how come Hiraki isn't dead yet?" was more to do with him saying that all the time and me kinda trying to get a reaction from using it.

[JasonWazza]

Go ahead and twist my words, why don't ya?

Why did you

vote for him twice

in spite of

barely mentioning him

? He was one of the most active players; he still has almost half again as many posts as you. It's not "I didn't mention everyone", it's "I conspicuously ignored one of the three people drawing most attention to themselves".

I didn't twist your words, i vote and mention people because i have something to say about them, not because i fucking need to, so again that is a playstyle tell.

But in your state of mind i shouldn't have done that i should have been lining up lynches because that is so much better

[JasonWazza]

That's L-1 if you take Director's hammer fever into account.

No that is L-1, the wagon is me, you and Jacob

[JasonWazza]

Intent to hammer director

Also had there been 2 kills (i was keeping this out of the game because of the WIFOMing shit this involved) i would have basically thought that the mafia team had 3 people on it because of Viomi's fighting at there being only one scum team, thank fuck that didn't happen.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: Director

Just too many links there to be ignored, i made the case a few days ago i'm pretty sure and it's pretty much stock standard the same as it is now, you have been anti-town on top of the scummy behaviour and we definitely need you gone before tomorrow

Also i think it was good that we had a short day phase so that scum has less info on who to shoot

[JasonWazza]

Ok, I'm ready.

Neither ISO gets me any substantial tells. JacobSavage has barely any content and JasonWazza seems town.
So that's why I'm approaching things from a different angle. Why am I alive? I've contributed a lot, made cases and have been part of the only scumlynch in the game. If I'm alive at 3-player lylo, there must be something I'm doing fundamentally wrong because scum doesn't consider me a threat. For that matter, why is JasonWazza alive? With the Town Doctor and the other scum team gone, why is the universally liked JasonWazza still alive? Why did Meanara die, a player that wasn't considered that townie at all?
I am of the opinion that nightkills should not be ignored. Because it is WIFOM territory, it is something that every player should analyze for themselves. I am posting above thoughts to give insight on how I've come to my decision.

However, I have found one tell that doesn't have to do with nightkills.

VOTE: Director

Just too many links there to be ignored, i made the case a few days ago i'm pretty sure and it's pretty much stock standard the same as it is now, you have been anti-town on top of the scummy behaviour

and we definitely need you gone before tomorrow

Also i think it was good that we had a short day phase so that scum has less info on who to shoot

Jason, in this post where you hammer Director, you talk about how we definitely need Director gone before tomorrow. Lynching Director quickly is good because it gives scum less information.
However, we already had three dead scum. I was under the impression that with lynching Director-scum, the game would be over. However, you talk about Director's lynch with your mind already set on tomorrow.

How did you know there would be another day?

The only way you would know there was going to be another day is if you knew Director wouldn't flip scum. And the only way you would know that is if you were the scum.

Vote: JasonWazza

Yes, I'm putting my vote down right away. This game is all I could think off for the past two hours and I want it out of my head. I have the choice between super towny player and super lurker who just voted someone that is already dead. If I'm wrong, I'm going to kick myself forever. But I've analyzed the situation carefully and this is what I've decided.

*crosses fingers*

Yay scum found without even trying, knew scum would leave me alive and try that uber early if i did that, JS be a smart boy and don't vote the guy who is dead vote this guy which is scum

VOTE: YOLO

a) Why would i address the vote on the basis that he is scum?

If that were the case he would be scum and the game would be over so it is a waste of breath doing so.

b) If that is seriously the only tell you can find how are you not going for the lurker who has contributed nothing over the person who has actted pro-town most of the game?

That's just poor reasoning

Longer secondary wall coming

[JasonWazza]

OK other then this guys lesser activity POST wise and it suddenly increasing at the end of day 3 (kinda weird imo but he was getting shit for it.) we have a guy that was trying to condone POLICY LYNCHES THROUGH THE WHOLE DAMN GAME.

How is this pro-town?

I don't need to continue this guy is terribly scummy and it's obvious

[JasonWazza]

2)

Golden Mean

Aj The Epic - Town Macho Seer - Killed Night 1

5) evilpacman18 - Town Doctor - Killed Night 2

8)

Xegarus

Maenara - Vengeful Townie - Killed Night 3

Considering this is probably an overpowered town already i'm not suprised

[JasonWazza]

your "case" on me, and i use the word stretchingly is pathetic, and based on one thing that i thought to myself it was now and never and i had to cash all my town credit to try and get the win for town.

also your "case" on Viomi was lead by me

[JasonWazza]

VOTE COUNT 3.2

Viomi - 4/4 (JasonWazza, JacobSavage, YOLO, the director)

YOLO

- 1/4 (Viomi)

the director

- 1/4 (Revenus)

JasonWazza

- 1/4 (Maenara)

Revenus

- 0/4 ()

Maenara

- 0/4 ()

JacobSavage

- 0/4 ()

Not Voting (0)

:

Viomi - Mafia Goon

has been lynched Day 3.

It is now Night 3.

Deadline

: February 19th, 9PM, PST.

Night 3 ends in (expired on 2013-02-19 21:00:00)

Please submit Night Actions.

Note who voted first

[JasonWazza]

LOL even JS voted Viomi scum before you did

P=Edit: I'm VT and i call bullshit.

[JasonWazza]

HAH he slipped

First post ALL COPS/SEERS MUST BE MACHO

[JasonWazza]

Game Information

If any cops/seers exist, they will be Macho.

I'm a town cop.

any town player would claim that in there first claim post scum thanks for outting yourself

[JasonWazza]

Dead during Night 2:

WT Snacks - Mafia Goon

Kinda convienient investigation don't you think?

[JasonWazza]

Also it's called scumhunting, normal games are based on it rather then on PR's, we are playing a normal game so this game won't be full to the brim of ways for only a PR to swing the game.

[JasonWazza]

Also using the Innocent/Guilty scheme you would have gotten guilty on the werewolves as well, a setup like this would only use mafia/Not mafia

[JasonWazza]

I love how this guy is leaving so much of his "Role PM" in the air.

[JasonWazza]

they would not put into this game a cop and a seer that is TOO over powered, it would be something like a tracker/watcher for the second IF they had any

[JasonWazza]

Also for all we know there could be a werewolf that can invest people to see if they are Mafia LOL

[JasonWazza]

Please Jacob, don't let this turn out like the Micro game we played a while back.

Least this time we aren't relying on a terrible venge kill

[JasonWazza]

Game Information

If any cops/seers exist, they will be Macho.

I'm a town cop.

any town player would claim that in there first claim post scum thanks for outting yourself

Also i would like to point out YOLO didn't respond to this and hasn't claimed Macho at all yet

[JasonWazza]

Just to be clear, that is a major part of the role and you posted that like 20 posts after i called out your slip.

Any town player would have claimed the Macho part because it is part of being a believeable claim, a scum player would leave it out due to not having seen that in the first post.

[JasonWazza]

A town player should always claim properly unless your gambiting using it for a specific reason (read: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=25034 Where i had such a gambit backfire pathetically in my face) you did no such gambit, there was no reason to leave that claim off, there was no reason not to address it in one of your 3 other posts inbetween me pointing it out and you actually saying you are.

You are not playing in a pro-town manner, and of course a town player would be concerned with there own appearance IN LYLO

[JasonWazza]

Secondly I can see why I would be in lylo, I can see why YOLO would be in lylo but someone who had so many town reads on him as Jason... seems to much of a risk.

a) that's called WIFOM
b) The hammer looked suspicious enough to make me live over Revenus, mind you that was the entire idea but meh

[JasonWazza]

Well this game has stalled...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hiraki

That's L-1 folks.

This post is very alarming to me. The game has been going for only a week, but in that time we've come close to lynching two different players (Revenus and Hiraki), we've seen a quickwagon on Navarre, and the game itself is quite active. How exactly has this game stalled? This has to be one of the worst vote argumentation I've ever seen. And on top of that, it's a L-1 vote!

On the subject of the recent Revenus and Hiraki wagons:
It's common knowledge that in mafia games the active players garner the most suspicion while the lurkers go by relatively easily, especially Day 1. This is because the more post, the more likely it is that you post something that other people will interpret as scummy. Now I won't say that Revenus and Hiraki aren't scum, but I will point out that our two most active players are conveniently our two major bandwagons of Day 1. As for my personal opinion, I haven't seem much from Hiraki that I would interpret as scummy. Especially when I look at how much he posted, I feel he's done an ok job so far. I'd rather look at the people with few content, especially those that go into 'prod dodge' mode with a lynch nearby, like Josh Lyman is doing now (gets prodded, says he's reading 'now', then doesn't post anyway).

So Revenus is data-dumping ISOs in an attempt to look like he is scum hunting in order to weasel out of his horrific opening play.

And Hikari isn't doing much to sway my read on him either.

I'm mainly talking about thoughts like this. You don't like what you see, but you're ignorant of what you don't see.

At this point my main suspicions lie with Josh Lyman and JacobSavage.
Josh Lyman has posted nothing worth of value today. He has only been here to vote Revenus and Hiraki (the leading wagons) with argumentation such as 'I'm voting you because you're scum' and 'I don't like this'. Then when we're getting close to a lynch, he disappears and only posts a prod acknowledgement.
I have stated earlier that I didn't like the fact that JacobSavage relied solely on meta to scumhunt. Since then, he has done next to nothing except join easy wagons (Navarre and Hiraki). Then, there's that terrible terrible 'this game has stalled' vote.

I feel comfortable voting either player. I'm going to vote Jacob because I feel Jacob's behaviour is more serious. If I look at it from a different angle, Jacob could just be a very impatient player by nature that legitly feels this game has stalled. However, going through the meta of other players is something that requires lots of patience. No matter how I look at it, his L-1 vote is terrible.

Vote: JacobSavage

This shows a lot of saving Hiraki

Null
Hiraki

Is protecting Hiraki without really putting a town read there

YOLO is by far the towniest person in the game, thanks.

Also really attached to keeping YOLO alive.

[JasonWazza]

Also just something from my wiki to prove my point about being left alive JS

As Town

Times Night killed as town: 2

Times Lynched as town: 6

Times Venge Killed as Town: 1

Times lasting till end game as town: 4

I don't very often get killed for some weird reason.

[JasonWazza]

I don't think that is required to balance the game cause we quite simply DON'T know the power of the last werewolf

[JasonWazza]

Seer could be simply counteractting something as simple as a strongman, we have no proof that the last werewolf is a goon

[JasonWazza]

that was just an example using one PR i know of lols.

[JasonWazza]

Now that i think about it rolecop would be a more logical example but meh Strongman has come up recently for me

[JasonWazza]

YOLO, did you breadcrumb?

I made an attempt to breadcrumb after Night 1. In my first post of Day 2, I quote Director, address him with one sentence, and the capital letters from I and Navarre form IN, short for innocent. The problem here was that we already knew the game had a seer and the OP hinted at a cop, so the mafia would surely be on the lookout for breadcrumbs. So I had to make sure the breadcrumb would not be easy to find. This would of course mean the breadcrumb would be hard to find for town too (I admit it doesn't look very convincing), but it would be better than not crumbing at all. I didn't crumb on subsequent days because my investigations died and both mafia were killed/lynched.

when you know it's pathetic, why did you do it and why did you not do something less pathetic?

YOLO is by far the towniest person in the game, thanks.

Also really attached to keeping YOLO alive.

That's nice, but you don't mention what happens afterwards:

YOLO is by far the towniest person in the game, thanks.

He makes three posts and is the towniest person in the game? Please tell me this is sarcasm.

Oh--must've been thinking about the wrong guy in hindsight.

Hiraki was actually not talking about me at all. Taking quotes out of their context and presenting them as stand-alone statements is a very scummy thing to do, you know?

Hmmm i thought that was after something else my bad, this was ISOing

Also just something from my wiki to prove my point about being left alive JS

As Town

Times Night killed as town: 2

Times Lynched as town: 6

Times Venge Killed as Town: 1

Times lasting till end game as town: 4

I don't very often get killed for some weird reason.

The issue here is that the most towny player in the game is alive in lylo, not that 'Player JasonWazza' is alive in lylo. I find it hard to believe that in all your other games you had the same 'very towny' reputation as you do here, especially since you get mislynched a lot. Also, I take note of the fact that you only posted your town statistics. You have mafia statistics as well, don't you?

Mafia Statistics AREN'T RELEVANT due to never being able to be killed by something (hence not relevant to the convo) But it was still relevant (the town part)

As for speculation about the role of the werewolf:
A sane alignment-investigative role is a very powerful role. It's not something you can counteract by giving a buff to a goon. It's telling that you can't think of a role that could possibly counter the strength of a seer. As Jacob already explained, a Strongman does nothing, and a Role Cop doesn't help either. A role cop would give the werewolves weapons to hunt town power roles, but the whole point is that the chances of the mafia/werewolves are unbalanced. A role cop doesn't counter the mafia like a seer counters the werewolf. In fact, a role cop doesn't counter the mafia at all since both of the mafia are vanilla.

Rolecop can kick the seers butt imo.

Searching for 1/11 instead of 2/12 and possibly finding other roles is better then the seer imo.

But if we are going to go there, roleblocker could beat it back, there are just so many reason why the mafia wouldn't mirror the werewolves in a game balance wise.

[JasonWazza]

Is it harder to seem town in 96 posts or in 32 posts?

Just saying

[JasonWazza]

Also relying on outguessing the mod for a win isn't gonna help, mods can screw people over and do so quite often setup wise

[JasonWazza]

jasonnnnnnnnn

why didn't you claim cop

fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

you had itttttt

I realize i had it and knew i should have after i pretty much claimed VT

AP i had to find some sort of reason that a cop wouldn't be in the game or else he would lynch me >.>

[JasonWazza]

Viomi hope there are no bad feelings about your lynch

You were just obviously scum.

WT Snacks, learn not to lurk so hard that you come off as PR/Scum, that was terrible play.

Werewolf topic (mostly me justifying my kills): http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/HnwhkZuVbDv2

I also don't know how till the last day i managed to pick off a PR/Scum every day :3, but i was glad to have hit the goon night 2 as i knew for certain that Viomi was scum (mentioned in the QT by Hiraki)

[JasonWazza]

Also i didn't think Viomi would risk a kill on me/Hiraki to be honest, i was shocked to see Hiraki being dead start of D2

[JasonWazza]

sorry Maenara :3

I just (generally) know how to talk myself out of being lynched as scum

[JasonWazza]

To be fair we ended up in LYLO cause i'm good at surviving

[JasonWazza]

I don't think scum day talk favors it either side really, especially when my partner was dead Night 1 :/

[JasonWazza]

A game can be balanced and just swingy. :3

[JasonWazza]

To be fair I lead the maria lynch to try and take out the mafia team in one shot, which is most of the reason viomi wasn't shot. No need to lose an ally on an opposing team early in the game.

[JasonWazza]

It'll happen some day till then i'll have to have you in each and every game i am in

[JasonWazza]

Mostly the "there's possibly one scum team" twas a massive slip and really only looked like it came from someone who was informed.