Mini 1454 - GAME OVER

[Amrun]

VOTE: Nobody Special

You're the only one I know.

I'm scared.

Hold me.

[Amrun]

VOTE: bubba

I dig.

[Amrun]

bubbajack

serious question

have you ever played this game before

[Amrun]

Angel, so he's not terrible, so him using OMGUS as a serious accusation means he's scum and not just dumb?

[Amrun]

While bubba's wagon is probably more advanced than it should be on page 2, equating it to an RVS wagon is really unrepresentative. Notscience, how carefully have you read?

[Amrun]

Seriously, bubba. How experienced are you?

[Amrun]

I don't like Amrun trying to get who he thinks the noob is lynched. I think he's saying I'm a noob as an excuse to lynch me for voting him. Which is an epic OMGUS. And pretty damn scummy.

Look, you're legitimately terrible at this game and also inexperienced.

a) I didn't even know you were voting me for me and I will never, ever care.

b) OMGUS is not even remotely a scum tell.

c) being noob isn't a reason to lynch someone. It's actually a reason not to vote for you if you just have no fucking clue what you are doing. You're insisting that you're competent, but your actions don't even approach competent. So why is that? Is it because you are just mistaken, and are incompetent? Or is it because you are still too new to know how to fake town competence as scum? In other words, are you just always terrible, or are you terrible because you're scum? So it's really quite important to ascertain your level of experience and other's opinions of your general play -- because I actually care about determining your alignment and reading other people's posts, which you either can't or don't.

[Amrun]

While bubba's wagon is probably more advanced than it should be on page 2, equating it to an RVS wagon is really unrepresentative. Notscience, how carefully have you read?

Enough to see that he has done nothing that seems extremely scummy. Not to mention, I don't take much of RVS seriously.

ANYTHING with a reason, however tenuous, is not RVS. Lrn2RVS.

[Amrun]

Follow on bubba. Not so much on notscience.

Whiteknight the noob is MORE COMMON in town, though not unheard of in scum.

VOTE: Hookerpunch

For not voting your suspects.

[Amrun]

Bubba, scum can be incompetent too. And PS I'm not even voting you anymore and I wasn't at the time of your reply.

[Amrun]

*incompetent/noob

[Amrun]

i'm happy with a Bubba lynch.

You're really happy with a lynch on page 4?

While bubba's wagon is probably more advanced than it should be on page 2, equating it to an RVS wagon is really unrepresentative. Notscience, how carefully have you read?

Enough to see that he has done nothing that seems extremely scummy. Not to mention, I don't take much of RVS seriously.

ANYTHING with a reason, however tenuous, is not RVS. Lrn2RVS.

Oh thank you, you have revealed to me how rude people can truly be. It feels like RVS to me, show me some solid reasoning and you can prove your point there.

I qualify RVS until people start to tunnel and ACTUALLY get answers. Js.

Well, unfortunately, RVS is a term with a discrete meaning that is not this.

[Amrun]

Yep yep.
Problems?

Yes. I like your reasoning for an early wagon. It's good to get the game going. It's not something you take to the bank.

You're not even bothering to engage your page 4 lynch target.

Even if we lynch bubba AND he flips red, a page 4 lynch is STILL a suboptimal lynch for town because it's low content.

[Amrun]

i think

i think i accidentally walked into a newbie game

[Amrun]

Are you pushing a policy lynch? Reals?

[Amrun]

Aj, shouldn't your vote logicallybe on fuzzy? Why isn't it?

Angel, pitoli, why aren't you voting?

[Amrun]

Angel, what do you think facilititates hearing more from people? Just sitting there wishing and praying, or doing something about it?

What's our most effective tool in doing something about it?

[Amrun]

Dear Jesus. Please learn how to read.

I never said you shouldn't be voted if you're incompetent, and for the record, you are not doing a very bang up job of proving you are not. And quite frankly, yes, I feel as if I am playing in a newbie game without the benefit of being the IC.

Yes, I noticed pit isn't here, but attempting to engage him is the only way to try and get him to post. If he flakes, then he flakes, and we'll start anew with his replacement.

And as for your response to post 160, I really can't express to you how much this shows how noob you are when it comes to MS play.

I was not at all advocating a lynch, and if you put your brain cells to remember how I criticized another player for attempting to do that not 2 pages ago, you might have a better chance of comprehending that.

Contribution doesn't happen in a vacuum. Votes are the most important tools that townies can EVER, ever have, regardless of any power roles. Votes are the motivation to post; votes are the stressors that allow people to be read. Being a town member without utilizing your vote on Day 1 is like being a scum member that refuses to nightkill. It's shooting your faction in the foot, deliberately.

As for asking why AJ wasn't voting fuzzy, I asked him that because he said "when players commit x action that fuzzy just committed, I find that scummy" and then didn't follow it up with his vote. I wanted to determine his motivation.

THAT'S HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME.

THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF MAFIA.

THAT'S EVERYTHING THERE IS TO THE ENTIRE GAME.


If you seriously expect me to sit on my hands and not post unless I am making a case, and you also don't want people to vote, then I think I can rest my case that you are a freaking noob. That's not an insult. Everyone is a noob at some point, and that's fine -- but you have to read noobs differently than you read players who are both experienced and competent, because their actions come from different mindsets. You need to understand each player's motivation the best you can to play this game properly, and determining basic facts like players in this game don't know what RVS is or don't know why everyone needs to be voting at all times especially on Day 1 is really important to figuring out who is scum.

[Amrun]

I didn't mean that one should never vote for noobs. I meant saying that you shouldn't vote a noob simply for noobish behavior (ie don't vote someone for not knowing what RVS is).

And YES, I was saying that people should vote, and that isn't scummy and the fact that you think it is...

Sorry if it OFFENDS anyone to say that this game is filled almost exclusively with people who are noobs relative to me. When I say people are incompetent, I only mean that they are incompetent due to being noobs as far as I know, btw.

I don't find "noob" offensive. It means that you are inexperienced on MS and therefore don't follow norms and meta and must be read very differently. Everyone is a noob for a while. I was. I still am, compared to many players on this site. But in the context of this game? No. And I didn't realize I was signing up for this.

Go on pretending "I'm not contributing" when I'm one of the very few people actually doing anything in this game and posting and doing shit. (You're another, so thanks for that.)

I'm so frustrated with this game. I don't know how to play with people that VOTING IS SCUMMY and don't know what RVS is but are ALSO too arrogant to understand that they are relatively inexperienced. One or two is different, but when it's literally everyone that's like... what the hell. That's why there are SEs and ICs in newbie games. You need a mix of experience levels to keep a game moving, ideally.

[Amrun]

In closing, I expect this to be a short day one. This has been one of the most hostile day ones I've ever seen.

Oh, dear God.

Don't leave this queue or the mini normal queue, then. This is a really nicey-nice game.

[Amrun]

^Juan, that's fine and there's nothing shameful about that. I don't mind playing with noobs usually but uh, some people in this game trying to insist INDIGNANTLY that basic tenets of theory are wrong, or scummy, is grating on my nerves. I'll try to get a handle on it a little better... Blegh.

[Amrun]

"Rushing" to vote =/= rushing to lynch. Also that's not what meta means in that context.

[Amrun]

That is one of the worst things I've ever heard.

I deserve a hug for having read that.

[Amrun]

Aw fuck. Hookerpunch isn't scum.

Unvote

Notacience is surface making a lot of scum noise, but he also seems to not be reading very deeply, so perhaps it is just noise. Still, I do not object to this lynch.

Fuzzybutternut, while it is questionable if he thinks about much at all, is still reading town ish to me.

Vote: JKMathews

I really disliked his recent post/entrance. As much as I appreciate him for not saying anything horrendous, his post is a lot of IoA and does absolutely nothing to advance the game. He's active lurking and not allowing himself to be read.

VLA until Tuesday

Work related. This will be most weekends, fyi. I may pop in if I have the time but it's a big weekend.

Fyi to everyone: noob is not an insult and I never intended it as such. Saying I am more experienced is not having an ego. It is being factual. Anyone with eyes can see it. I am not saying I am some amazingly skilled player, but I have a LOT of games and experience. Somehow saying so and correcting people about serious gaffes in theory is condescending. Sorry if you think so but idc really. Know that I am not trying to insult or imply you're terrible or whatever.

[Amrun]

OMG Hoopla is here?

I'M SO EXCITED EVEN THOUGH I CAN'T READ YOU FOR SHIT HOOPLA

[Amrun]

Okay, trying to catch up here, and MS seems to have deleted the first half of quoted posts for some reason.

The basic recap is:

The reason I unvoted HP is because he kept mentioning things he wasn't paying attention (ex, vote distribution, me) and the things he pays attention to vs. the things he does NOT pay attention to are very straightforward examples of what town pays attention to vs. what scum pays attention to.

(Also, Hoopla, I'm riling up the newbies because it's easier to read them that way, of course.)

AJ jumping on the bandwagon after me and Hoopla put me off quite a bit and confirmed something I had been thinking for quite a while. Notscience called jon out for buddying, but jon seems too intelligent to buddy so purposefully. Real buddying looks a lot like what AJ is doing instead. I didn't want to say anything until my gut actually had some substance because the minute I call it out, the minute the behavior changes. But Hoopla came in and began a tertiary suspicion of AJ, and we saw his behavior depart from his previous behavior fairly drastically. To me, this confirms that he's conscious of what he's doing and this makes him extremely scummy in my eyes. So scummy, in fact...

VOTE: AJ

I also wanted to note for Hoopla that even though I was off the notscience wagon, if I were to have moved my vote from JKMatthews, it would have been to notscience at that point. I was conflicted there, but notscience is scummy in a very obvious way, so obvious in fact that I was wondering if this was a reason he was maybe town as opposed to scum. I noted this somewhere a while back, probably in slightly different words. That being said, your analysis makes sense -- but I don't think it's quite as conclusive as you seem to, one of the reasons being that AJ makes very good sense as a not science buddy.

JK's replace out could be null, but a slot that just begins to get pressure and bails for such a vague reason always ticks my notch as scum. I am still not opposed to a lynch there.


Now this is where the quotes picked back up again for whatever reason...

The amount of buddying Hooker is giving Amrun is too damn high.

Which leads me to notscience. After re-reading notscience's vote history & posts since the point Hoopla pointed out, I am more and more liking this wagon. His three votes--Amrun, fuzzy, and I--have always been after someone else voted on them, but not only that, but someone who got some bad PR directly before his votes. I'm unsure if he's just being reactionary or not(it's possible), but I'm more willing to believe he's trying to push a wagon early in an attempt to get the tempo ball rolling in all cases. Ergo, I am willing to put down the ultimatum of a VOTE: notscience.

And then he joins the current wagon. Are you fucking kidding. What an opportunity vote.

Just when I am sure bubba is town, he goes and says something like this. I quoted this originally because it alarmed me as highly hypocritical cherry picking. (I am 100% scum, but Hooker is scum for buddying me? Cogdis at its best.)

In hindsight, though, I'm sticking with my town read of bubba. I think he just has no idea what buddying is or what it means. He not only goes after me, but blatantly disagrees with Hoopla in an unapologetic, and that's very bold for scum. Bubba is town, Angel is town, HP is town.

Kthxbye has done enough to convince me that slot isn't scum.

UNVOTE: Kthxbye

HOW? Seriously. I want this spelled out.

Now how has nobody put pressure on Nobody Special?

....

First, I would hope that town is just as "deeply invested in the game" as scum are. Secondly, NS tries to line up a second lynch when we weren't nearly done with the day.

Serious question, marc. Have you ever played with NS before?

I want to say one thing, though. NS said that about being more emotionally invested in the game as scum because it's true for HIM. He is more emotionally invested in his scum games. And I see him as NOT emotionally invested in this game, and viewing things through the lense of how he does things, which is fairly townish. Plus, most bits of content he HAS posted I have basically agreed with, and only the last one about JKMathews had a real potential to be non genuine. That's why I read him as town.

But I don't like this post from marc at all. The first time one plays with NS, this is a fairly reasonable reaction, but the WAY in which it is done, and not addressing anything else, makes me feel like it's more going for an easy target.

Why is it that you want me as a lynch, Hoop? Just my position on the wagon, as a sort of mythical scumtell? We could probably ,sit here all day and argue why 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th has some meaning in being a scum position to hop on the wagon, but I don't see too much of a problem with my vote for Science. I left it there as long as I did partly a signal of intent, partly just because I was pretty inactive in reading this game, but new things have cropped up and the amount of voting/unvoting on the wagon was unsettling me. I could ask the same of fuzzy, but he doesn't seem too inclined to give his reasoning for anything.

jon and NS would probably be my top candidates for a lynch, not convinced on Science or kthxbye but the first two stick out most to me. I hadn't noticed NS too much (figures, seeing as he's lurked) but marc's reasoning is sound. On jon, since jon has been pressured, he quickly unvoted Science on the premise of following Hoopla, which to me looks like a knee-jerk reaction to seem more town.

So far it looks like jon has worked out that he wants to be on the good side of both Hoopla and Amrun.

VOTE: jon

_{insert ironic comment about how i'm the 3rd voter again, thus sealing Hoopla's position on me}

The bolded is how I feel about AJ, not Jon, though it CAN be said of jon as well and Juan is not wrong.

I disagree with Hoopla on Juan. I think he's coming off townish. It's not as strong as some other reads, not the least of which because he very notably notched up his posting quality after being targetted by Hoopla and his excuse for vote parking there is tenuous at best. But still, I am not at all inclined to vote him right now.

As for jon himself, I am more null, maybe null leaning town. There are certainly x and y scummy things we can attribute to his name without any stretching, but some things about his posting gives me town vibes -- notably that he doesn't seem particularly image conscious. That's about it, though.

I'll give you a hint at not's scum buddy...coughajcough

Very first thing that has made me feel good about this slot. Even if notscience is town, this is exactly what I was thinking at this precise moment, and thinking the same things is always townish to me.

I already said why JKM and HP have a potential to be scumbuddies. I'm still not loving HP's attempt to assist the scum a few pages back, and then he votes me simply because "my wagon is bigger," not because I come off as more scummy than him.

I give a reason for a vote, and it's me trying to place an oppurtunistic vote? Lets twist everything I say to make me seem scummy please AIF.

Calling OMGUS on Jon's vote.

He's scared his wagon is getting too big and is jumping to me to try and save his ass.

He didn't even provide a reason for his vote, as fuzzy has not been doing either. So, yeah.

Tell me -- why is the bolded scummy?

Looks to me like scum trying to sheep his way to victory while buddying up. Anyone else seeing it in post 381?

Why do you keep asking everyone else if they agree with you?

It's a counter wagon to the scum-not wagon...not rocket surgery.

Rocket surgery?

Did the rocket have a heart attack? :O

My thoughts exactly. Haha.

OMG Hoopla is here?

I'M SO EXCITED EVEN THOUGH I CAN'T READ YOU FOR SHIT HOOPLA

i am towning it up so far

I have to say... you are. Just that you are saying that makes me all paranoid, though. In general, I find that you are more unsure as town than you are here, but my ability to read you is almost zero and this game is full of relative noobs, so I can't trust that at all. I will never, ever forget the moment I found out it was YOU who coached mith to vote DemonHybrid in that one game of White Flag, and that vote was what made my ENTIRE game of reads fall apart in my hands when I had the whole team pegged exactly. You have the ability to fool me. You are making a lot of sense here and I know where you're coming from, but I've said the EXACT same thing to myself about you when you turned out to be scum.

But still, even so, you read town to me and this makes me happy in all the right ways.

[Amrun]

Curious, Hooker -- you were very alarmed/curious when I unvoted you. I don't generally share the reasons for my town reads until there is a reason in the game to do so, and my reason this time was to see how you responded to having the information you were lacking.

You chose not to respond at all. Why is that?

[Amrun]

Hooker, I am not sure you understand what buddying is, or when it is used or why.

[Amrun]

AJ jumping on the bandwagon after me and Hoopla put me off quite a bit and confirmed something I had been thinking for quite a while. Notscience called jon out for buddying, but jon seems too intelligent to buddy so purposefully. Real buddying looks a lot like what AJ is doing instead. I didn't want to say anything until my gut actually had some substance because the minute I call it out, the minute the behavior changes. But Hoopla came in and began a tertiary suspicion of AJ, and we saw his behavior depart from his previous behavior fairly drastically. To me, this confirms that he's conscious of what he's doing and this makes him extremely scummy in my eyes. So scummy, in fact...

What bandwagon. You went Juan, I said Jon is the right choice. If you think I'm changing my behavior, I'm not. Notscience is an easy target for newness. I can pick bad scum off of that wagon all day. I don't believe Not to be scum, but I've never gone out of my way to impair the wagon.

Also, no offense but I wouldn't buddy you or Hoopla. I believe you to be town, but your reads are well different from mine if you think Jaun is scum. The fact that you laid out a better case for Jon and went Juan constantly bothers me. And then to simply cop out that Notscience is being scummy? Come on, for an experienced player, you should at least be able to analyze that this is probably Not's third game. Also, he has been the target of bad votes and bad cases. Using any knowledge, I can tell you that slot is mislynch fodder, but you still accept it as scum. This is another reason I'd never buddy with you: You're completely missing mislynch fodder and mistaking it for scum. You even said it's your second vote choice. The popular vote route keeps you high and dry, right? That's fine, but it's not the correct path.

Not doesn't flip scum. No chance of it. The wagon's composition has forever been too awful, from Jon's RVS vote all the way down to Kthx claiming a dueling wagon where he was right and i was the buddy. These are bad cases on a new player.

I am not sure you can read if you think I think Juan is scum.

I also did not vote for notscience for very important reasons (the main one being that many of what registers as scum on a basic level could be noob playstyle). I have said as much THREE times or more now. I have not even close to accepted that slot as scum, and I don't understand how anyone reading could think the things you have just posted.

[Amrun]

WHAT

I don't think Jon OR Juan is scum. (Or notscience, necessarily -- though I have more complex thoughts on this that I have shared.)

Are you fucking HIGH

I was referring to JKMatthews.

[Amrun]

Amrun, the bolded in post 400 came off more to me as scum desperate not to be lynched over the town wanting to stay alive so he could help.

Asking people if they agree with me is both an assessment of buddying, as well as confirming if what I saw was true (because face it, I might have read something TOTALLY wrong).

Also, I'm pretty sure I've called out HP for some questionable posts.

Why wouldn't town be desperate not to be lynched?

Unvote

I hope that NS gets to be more active, although from what you are saying it's not worth it to pressure him for it.

That's all you have to say, really?

Hooker, I am not sure you understand what buddying is, or when it is used or why.

I am aware of what buddying is, which is why I said what you were doing was a very blatant and poorly-done case of it, if that is what you were trying to accomplish.

I'm sorry, but it seems you do not. In the context of the game, there is no way that I would suddenly 180 turn from voting for you to buddying you with no explanation. That is not logical. But I think your confusion is genuine.

[Amrun]

OH, heads up, here on out I'll be scarce until next week -- and even then, I'll have one day before my regular weekend v/la.

I have work and then I'm going to Balto Meet (yay!). I"ll make posts here and there but don't expect good engagement from me for a week +.

[Amrun]

Oh, and...

@Angel: I didn't say "too scummy to be scum," but I see where you got that. What I mean is he's doing X and Y scummy actions, but I'm not sure yet whether or not they have scum motivation or are just newb flails.

[Amrun]

I hate life.

But the question now is who in the game would have killed Hoopla night 1. My immediate reaction is that bubba would not have. I'm sure when I re-read day 1 I will have more to say except FUCK YOU GUYS FOR LYNCHING HOOKERPUNCH.

But I am still at Balto Meet so I'll check in again on Thursday and actually start playing this Day.

[Amrun]

oh woops there's a page 24

[Amrun]

oh yeah

VOTE: aj the epic

i forgot to do that

the end.

[Amrun]

Aj I haven't read the spoiler but fucking lol

This entire game is new players. Literally. The whole game. Was I just supposed to self vote and hope for the best?

Fucking kill this scum. Lol


Also ns is town and he's totally right about kthxbye but obviously aj is the common denominator so let's kill him till he's dead.

[Amrun]

I should read the wall because you have the game locked? Are you implying you will convince me to vote for myself?

Thanks for treating me as town. Lol. This is literally one of the funniest pushes I've ever read.

I will read your wall probably at some point. I'm on my way home from balto meet now. Though after tomorrow I go out of town again for the weekend (as usual).

I'm hoping by the time I get around to that shit you'll be dead because its actually sad and I can't see any combination of scum team that does not involve you.

P-edit: bubba jack you are town but legitimately retarded if you think I have not "contributed" to this game. I would ask if you are on crack but you seem too genuinely convinced.

I'm not complaining that the game is full of newbies. That's fine. I'm saying that criticizing me for voting newbies on this game full of newbies is the most hilariously bad push so far on this game and considering this game contains a push that is "my rvs votes are always on scum" that's fucking saying a lot.


Hahahahahahahjdidnsksnsisj

This game is the best

Pedit 2: ns' hammer wasn't actually scummy at all lololololol

[Amrun]

"Not scummy" = "pro-town." That's just not how the game works.

I don't want to discuss theory because it isn't relative to anyone's alignment except kthxbye for trying to draw me into such a pointless discussion. I don't think NS' hammer in any way indicates that he is scum rather than town. Not only is that not how ns plays as scum, it is not how anyone would play as scum. Action that is more likely to originate from town rather than scum can never be scummy, even if you deem that particular action to have harmed the town in some way (which I don't really in this case, for the record).

[Amrun]

Yeah, because you're not scumhunting. I get it.

[Amrun]

Bubba, in case you have recently learned to read but don't quite have the hang of it as is evidently the case, none of the things you quoted are actually complaining. Furthermore, I HAVE complained/needled a few people earlier on in order to get better reads. The most notable result of this is deciding you're probably town. Even further, complaining of any sort is not a scum tell. You literally have no idea what a scum tell is, unfortunately. You ARE the person who said, "What's scummy about IIoA?" earlier this game, which is baffling in and of itself because you recognize the term but don't understand that it's a term because it is in the wiki as a classic scum tell. Lol

Even FURTHER, you have somehow failed to comprehend that the person whose case you are sheeping/agreeing with said that one of the main things that makes me scummy is that I've gone after "mostly newer players" in a game full of exclusively new players, which is illogical to the point of absurdity. And yet you have not read carefully enough to understand this, SOMEHOW, even when I re-iterated it.

Why can't you be scum so I can lynch you? WHY? It would be so easy to do if I wanted to.

You're town. And it is so, so painful for me.

[Amrun]

PS, bubba, I asked you if you were a new player simply in order to determine how to read you. Every player ever in the world understands you read newbies differently than experienced players. I have never once made an effort to discredit you even though it would be excessively easy since almost everything you say makes no sense at fucking all. In fact, I keep telling people over and over and over that you're town, which in fact means that your opinion matters quite a bit more to me than the rest of the game's since you're my strongest town read.

Unfortunately, even after you spearheaded a mislynch on Hooker Punch -- an obviously terrible lynch, btw -- you still act as if we would win if we listened to you. You have not re-evaluated your reads even after you were the main impetus behind a mislynch, and you wonder why no one takes you seriously? It has nothing to do with me.

You're town which is why I am very frustrated with you. You have successfully bled towniness, which is really important to do as town! That's step 1 completed, job well done, etc. but please start thinking with your head and not your ego now.

This is the last I want to say about this. If you want to call me scum, go ahead, but please stop bringing up me calling you a newbie as if I have grievously wronged you. It's a fact. Get over it. It's not an insult. Play the game now.

P-edit: I never said I wasn't enjoying the game. None of the posts you quoted were complaining and only ine wasn't really relevant to the game and was instead explaining that newb isn't an insult so that we could never fucking talk about it again, because it was becoming a distraction and even now you will not let it die. You are town because your thought processes are extremely transparent and innocent, despite the fact that they are woefully wrong.

Tell me something. Is voting a scum tell? Is breathing a scum tell? Scum have done them, so according to your logic, they are scum tells.

Scum's main job is to act like town. Therefore they do lots of things that are not scum tells and could come from either alignment. That is literally the definition of how scum are supposed to play. The point of the game as town is to isolate the things players do that are scum motivated.

You have to explain WHY something is a scum tell. For example, rob could have told you something was not a scum tell because it simply isn't a scum tell. Or maybe he was trying to manipulate you. Either way, the act itself isn't a scum tell. You can't take it out if context and call it that.

Convince people why a player's individual action is scum motivated within the context of the game. Because I'm telling you right now that you are trying to speak with an authority you don't have which is why you have seen a trend of players frustrated with you. That's okay! Understanding of the meta here and what things are and are not scum tells will come in time. I want you to be able to express yourself better because we are on the same freaking town and even though your reads are bad right now, maybe they'll improve and if I am killed, I want to trust you to carry the torch.

The game will be better off if you don't respond to this, but you probably will...

[Amrun]

Don't give KthxBai credit for this wagon what the hell. I led this shit. Yet another attempt at buddying so you can semi-clear Kthx when you flip scum.

bubbajack, don't try to re-write history. "You led this shit," so take credit now.

Where's your Kthxbye vote, by the way? Why AREN'T you on KTB?

I never said you weren't trying. You clearly are. wut And why would I listen to you calling AJ town? You have no valid reason and AJ is SCUM AS FUCK. You being town doesn't make you right.

I would be willing to compromise onto kthxbye, though.

Why would I acknowledge your "reads" in another game I know nothing about? Are you fucking serious right now? lol

I also had no reason to speak to you about fuzzy. I don't care about fuzzy. I have addressed his alignment. Honestly, even though he's done plenty of dumb shit, why does that matter? I don't think he is particularly likely to be scum. AJ is backing me into a corner, or attempting, and painting both voting and not voting for newbies as scummy, and it is as illogical as it is scummy.

[Amrun]

you legit think bubba is scum fighting his way out of being lynched, with zero votes on him and shit?

[Amrun]

He's going to be annoying when I say this, but that's typical for a player of his relative skill, experience level, and temperament. It probably has little to do with his alignment.

The only thing giving me pause is him trying to wash his hands of the HP wagon today, but meh. I really doubt it at this point. I wasn't lying when I said he's my strongest town read ... unfortunately, now that Hoopla and HP are dead. NS might be a close second.

[Amrun]

AJ and KTB make a perfectly beautiful scumteam. It's so beautiful it brings a tear to my eye. Off of the top of my head I forget how many people are in this game so if there are three scum, several different people fit into the final slot, but I was not exaggerating when I said there are TONS of scum teams AJ makes completely plausible sense with.

When the rest of the scum team is interchangeable to a certain extent and there's a common denominator that makes sense, that person's chance of being scum is pretty fucking high.

But even disregarding that, he is scumshitting all over this fucking thread.

[Amrun]

Oh my God. You're mistaken, and yet when I talk about that mistake before you correct it, I'm "lying?"

Ps I have never once acted like I'm "pro" of any sort and have even explicitly said I'm not, but your own insecurity is showing.

This game is fucking ridiculous. Seriously. Lol

Reminder to self to make a singular post on aj when at computer since people are apparently incapable of reading individual posts and remembering them from post to post

[Amrun]

Experienced =\= pro. Are you kidding lol.

[Amrun]

Bubba, you must be high and please shut up about stuff that is the most alignment irrelevant shit I've ever seen. I don't replace out of games unless I have to for life reasons. It's fucking shitty to do.

Not science I thought was town at the end of yesterday, but today is extremely underwhelming. Completely the exact opposite for Marc.

Juan, why did you unvote and not replace your vote?

[Amrun]

Why WOULD I replace out of any game for any reason? None of those reasons are reasons to replace out. Replacing out is a horrible thing to do and if you think that's a good reason then remond me never to play with you. it places a hurden on the moderator and the game. Plus you still fail to comprehend that anything I said on the beginning was to get reads, and also accurate. You're the only one being frustrating now, overall, because you pretend this has anything to do with the game. Seriously. Stop it. Call me scum for game things or just stop addressing me. You're flooding the game with useless crap.

Also notscirnce's statement about avoiding nl makes perfect sense.

[Amrun]

Uhh. Bubba, you're completely wrong about p much everything about how this game is played. Please just shut up about it. A new person in a slot usually prevents lynching. Pressuring me to replace out for ??? reason is fucki no shitty. Stop.


So, Juan. You don't have scum reads, and you're hesitant to vote because someone criticized you for not thinking about your votes enough? Plus Hoopla dying implicates you.

I would vote for you if aj wasn't so scum. Imagine that I have two votes and one is on you.

[Amrun]

As much as I am happy with your vote, notscience, Omgus is kind of a weird accusation at this stage of thee game especially.

But I was gunning for him yesterday, too -- hard. And Hoopla suspected him and she's dead. In the sense of going after his biggest threat (with a really dumb case to boot), then I agree with you overall. And this is what I said yesterday -- his behavior changed immediately towards both Hoopla and I when we began to suspect him. I was completely unsurprised when he voted me today. It's so obviously scummy. He should be dead for it. He should have been dead for it yesterday and instead we lynched obvtown.

[Amrun]

Of course night kill speculation is wifom. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't talk about it. That being said, notscience saying that is a fairly strong town tell when nk speculation looks good for him.

Bubba, I don't KNOW why Hoopla was killed. I'm speculating, and Juan being behind it is another possibility I have raised.

But this is why I think it is most likely to be AJ: before Hoopla (and then me) began suspecting him, AJ buddies us fairly hard (me more so, as I was in the game longer). I noted it since the beginning but I wanted to let it ride. He voted JK after me and Hoopla, with no reasoning, for example -- boom boom boom, 1, 2, 3. And tried to include himself in the more experienced group with phrasing and vote patterns, even though I certainly wasn't mentally including him and don't believe I've ever played with him before. Even though NS is just as experienced as me (or more), he never exhibited this behavior towards NS.

And then when Hoopla expresses suspicion of AJ, his behavior in game changed. And then when I dropped the above information, which his behavior change confirming it for me, and voted AJ, his behavior continued to shift and he moved from "buddy" mode to "defense" mode.

It's quite clear that Hoopla and I were his biggest threats simply by virtue of suspecting him and being the most likely to be able to achieve a lynch from that. I suspected him more, but not only is Hoopla a better player than me and more experienced, she was fairly universally town read while I have had people annoyed with me and am much more likely to be lynched.

And he starts out of the gate today voting me. Surprise, right? Not at all.

Nk analysis has fallen out of favor here, because people dismiss it for wifom or don't mention it at all. This has led to an uptick of scum just blatantly killing their threats. (I was just talking to Dgb about this at the scum meet, and she said as scum she just completely slaughters anyone who might vote for her, both at night and with votes, because everyone assumes its "too obvious" and doesn't look for it anymore.)

But even so, Hoopla ISN'T the obvious kill. She is a) the most well known, talented player and therefore a universal threat to any scum, b) was much more vocal about her suspicion of JuanJuan. So an AJ worried about bring too obvious would kill Hoopla over me any day of the week.

Is this speculation hard and fast? Of course not.

Does it contribute to the case on him that includes extremely scummy day play? Yes.

[Amrun]

Unvoting because someone said you don't think out your votes enough and not having a better place to put your vote, and not even being able to ANSWER that, is scummy as hell.

Nk is wifom, of course, but I covered that above. Obvious nks aren't really obvious in today's meta, and you bring able to say "it's too obvious" is a reason in and of itself.

Also a scum team doesn't have only one person, but that being said, I think AJ's reasons to kill Hoopla are far more compelling, hence my vote (or one of the reasons).

[Amrun]

I pointed it out yesterday. You're too smart to be so blatant with buddying that you just vote hop to whatever I'm doing. It's much more subtle than that, most of the time. Use of an arbitrary "we," etc. I only have my phone for the weekend so I'll have to ask people to look and evaluate for themselves, for the moment.

And as I said, I don't think Hoopla WAS an obvious kill for you -- and ANY kill is traceable in some way.

P-edit: Yes, I agree, but it wasn't actually omgus.

[Amrun]

Question, fuzzy. Is saying omgus is a scum tell a scum tell?

P-edit: When making meta arguments, you can't use epic mafia shit. On ms, it's widely known that a new player to a slot is more likely to get off the hook. Also what the fuck does that have to do with HP? It worked PERFECTLY in this game -- JKM replaced out and them people forgot kthxbye existed.

And you're making arbitrary distinctions about AJ's vote. The point was that after I voted, and Hoopla votes, he jumped on in a comfortable scum position with no reasoning.

Neither Juan nor AJ are obvious town even if you happen to have town reads on them. But actually, I liked his response to the Hoopla sk thing. It made me less keen to vote him, on that front, but the other more concrete thing he did was still very scummy. I had a town read on him yesterday though. I may have overreacted to his very bad unvote. Still keeping an eye on him.

[Amrun]

Fuzzy, are you aware omgus is in the wiki as a scum tell? It's outdated, yes, but for newer players the wiki is a lifeline. I find your isolationist reason to vote notscience just as bad as notscience's original reason to vote bubba.

Bubba, you can go along asserting things that are widely acknowledged as untrue all you want, but that doesn't make you right. Also, fucking lol at you saying I had no reason to vote AJ. I was voting him through the end of the day yesterday -- is your memory so short that you think those reasons just disappeared? Whatever. Just stop addressing me. You're rude as fuck, and it's funny, but I feel bad for everyone else. Stop flooding. You've said your piece, and that's enough.

[Amrun]

Fffffffffffff. I explained that I didn't mean noob as an insult, and only you have your panties in a wad over it. Being a noob isnt bad, but being a purposeful jackass is. You're not saying anything new, so restrain yourself from flooding until something else happens. You're making it so hard for people to follow the game and its anti-town.

[Amrun]

Lol.

K.

[Amrun]

That's obviously the case. I've said it forever. Doesn't take a genius to see it.

[Amrun]

Not sure you know what ate is. I have yet to make it to a computer -- I warned it would be this way.

I doubt I will be making a case that ties you to anyone. That's a fairly stupid thing to do.

[Amrun]

Not quite, in rhetorical terms, but it doesn't matter. I haven't used any classic or otherwise ate. Even so, it's only a situationally scummy thing to do anyway. Town does it all the time. It's only interesting here because it's a baffling thing to say when I haven't even close to done this.

There are other things you could have said that could have been closer to the realm of reality, but not that.

[Amrun]

It's actually also his content and we all know it. Why sugarcoat it?

[Amrun]

Are you trying to avoid drawing his ire?

[Amrun]

@NS: I wanted to see what you'd say. I still think you're town but I have to test my reads every once in awhile.

@fuzzy: OMGUS used to be a scumtell, until meta made it shift. But you still have to keep in mind that newbies aren't aware of certain things. I was very serious when I said newbies must be read differently.

[Amrun]

@NS: I wanted to see what you'd say. I still think you're town but I have to test my reads every once in awhile.

@fuzzy: OMGUS used to be a scumtell, until meta made it shift. But you still have to keep in mind that newbies aren't aware of certain things. I was very serious when I said newbies must be read differently.

[Amrun]

Oh, for the record, I've DEFINITELY seen NS hammer without a claim before. I don't recall exact games, but it didn't come as a surprise.

[Amrun]

Are you KIDDING me, AJ? Notscience was very clearly saying she prefers you to die because you are scum but me (ie anyone) dying is better than a no lynch.

That's the worst stretch vote I've ever seen.


And fucking lol bubba, you are soooo delusional if you think you have caught me in any sort of lie of any sort! Like I honestly don't understand your reality. It's not really scummy, it's just lol.

[Amrun]

No, that's very clearly not what notscience was doing, and saying so requires a willful misinterpretation of the posts in question.

[Amrun]

I never lied once.

Also, taking exception to the use of "endgame" is valid, or would be if it weren't day 2. A game that unbalanced would never pass normal review.

[Amrun]

AJ, notscience NEVER said he'll settle for any lynch. Ever. You're just misrepping hard core.

[Amrun]

I did read your post, but I know I haven't lied, so how is your post relevant at all? Lol

[Amrun]

Are you kidding me?

1) you didn't "disprove" anything and even if I had been wrong, that doesn't make it a "lie"

2) you misunderstood that. I already explained. I voted, hoopla voted, and THEN he voted. If he voted after me it wouldn't make any sense...

3) of course I came out of the gate, and of course I had reasoning. It was from yesterday. I reminded you of this and you said "of I forgot." That doesn't make it a lie. It makes it clear that you're not following the game like you think you are when you thought I was voting hookerpunch when I had an adamant town read on hookerpunch. Once again, you being blatantly wrong doesn't mean I'm "lying."

And I never said he addressed hoopla. I said his behavior changed. And it did.

4). Oh my god are you serious? You're saying I'm "lying" about another player's motivations?

It says a lot about how clueless you are that I'm not sure if that's you just being dumb or a legitimate scum slip. P fucking S, trying to determine a player's motivations is the point of the game. Scum don't tell the truth about that -- so how do you know Juan is?


If bubba turns out to be scum, Juan is 100% town.

[Amrun]

I am not responding any more. I don't think you're dumb, though, as a person. As a player, you're not nearly as capable as you think you are (which is true of most of us, in some way or another).

All I will say is this: being wrong doesn't make someone a liar, it makes them wrong. I wasn't wrong but that's irrelevant.

Lying doesn't make someone scum.

And few people are honest about motivations in this game, and that is, in fact, the whole point of the game, so saying such a thing is maybe the funniest thing I've ever read on this site.

Ordinarily, taking someone for face value like that is a scum slip, but for you, I have to evaluate on another level, unfortunately. I am going to continue with my town read though I'll feel stupid if you do end up flipping red.

I have never met someone who could misunderstand the basic tenets of the game so thoroughly as to not understand questioning someone's motivations and in the same post brag about how awesome they are. Lol

[Amrun]

Nobody special....

Vote AJ for great justice!

[Amrun]

NS. I know it's tempting. I know he's committing basic scum tells.

But he's probably town never the less. Ignore it and vote scum AJ.

[Amrun]

er, well... that's not ideal.

this is why previews exist.

[Amrun]

... what

VOTE: kthxbye

That's an illogical reason to vote bubba. VCA for an SK lynch is just WUT

Still suspect this slot way back from when it was JKMatthews. Sideline snipes from yesterday, and today, coming out of the gate voting bubba. It could be an attempt to ride frustration with bubba from yesterday + bubba endorsing an sk flip as town hoping to turn the tide.

KTB, please quote where you thought bubba alluded to being the doc.


That flip was mildly frustrating, considering I wanted him to be red, but it's probably actually better since it got rid of a night kill.

[Amrun]

ALSO

HAHA

HA.

AJ KILLED HOOPLA NIGHT 1.

SO RIGHT.

THE END.

[Amrun]

Unfortunately, fuzzy's ISO isn't very conclusive about who he might have protected on night 1. I know some people he didn't protect (bubba, Juan), but that says very little except "these people are not conftown," which is duh...

Some posts from day 2 indicate it may have been me, which makes sense, but tells me jack shit since I know I'm town.

The players most likely to kill fuzzy are notscience and Juan (if scum), but that ALSO says very little. I myself had thought he might be a power role because of the way he played day 1. (actually, I thought he might be a cop and had copped me, leading to his strong town read of me opening day 2.) So if I picked it up without trying, scum could easily have picked it up since they definitely are trying.

Bummer.

p-edit:

You're joking, right?

Scum DID kill. We had a doctor protect night 1, which was obviously successful. Scum kill flavor is obviously "exploded," which leaves the "kill" flavor for the Serial Killer (AJ).

[Amrun]

Well, I mean, it could also have been something else, like a roleblocker or whatever, but since we have a doctor that we know of, it's easier to work from that.

And my vote for ktb has nothing to do with his hammer, btw. When it happened, I thought it might be faked, BUT -- it's unlikely as either alignment. It was most likely genuine. Accidents happen; doesn't mean he's not scum.

p-edit:

It COULD have been a double target, but hopefully we'd have seen two kill flavors in that case.

Remind me why you're voting for notscience, guy? I know you've done it before, but outline your reasons, please.

p-edit 2: Yes, that would mean I was town, IF he knew he had successfully protected me, which seems unlikely. But I mean, I AM town, so go right ahead thinking that...

[Amrun]

Notscience, why no vote? What are your reads?

[Amrun]

Bubba, why is your amrun read out the window exactly?

This post does not contain an answer to my previous question. Your next one should, as well as answer to these: what's your read on me? Why is bubba scum?

[Amrun]

His terrible d1 play and he hasn't done any better.

I have an another suspect and now that my Internet is stable I wanna have a little chat with him.

Why does "terrible play" indicate scum?

[Amrun]

I believe I did not adequately make this clear. All flavor in the game is just that - flavor. It contains no hints, whatsoever. It just amuses me to write it (and hopefully amuses you to read it).

The standard notation on this site is that kill flavors -- like actual announcements about who is dead and who is not -- are official, ie different factions sometimes but not always have different "flavors" (ie exploded, killed). This being a normal game, I assumed it was standard notation. Are you saying that the kill flavors don't indicate which party killed whom?

[Amrun]

Well, I'd rather not assume.

But since the SK is dead, it doesn't matter that much anyway.

p-edit: nevar. scum stalling!

[Amrun]

His terrible d1 play and he hasn't done any better.

I have an another suspect and now that my Internet is stable I wanna have a little chat with him.

Why does "terrible play" indicate scum?

Because of the tone. I use that a lot when I read newbs.

And you haven't re-evaluated at all? Which things indicated a tone you find scummy?

[Amrun]

I asked you to explain the scumread, and this is all you gave me.

[Amrun]

Like, you're just totally happy to vote park for a completely insubstantial reason, without commenting on jack all else or incorporating later actions and flips into your read?

Your read on notscience hasn't evolved at all, and it troubles me.

[Amrun]

Not really. I was asking for an off-the-cuff answer that would indicate to me whether or not you were scum vote parking or town with a conviction.

Guess which prize you won?

[Amrun]

KTB, please quote where you thought bubba alluded to being the doc.

Because of his p52 "lol. Lynching doc is a pretty terribad move (;"

page what?

[Amrun]

Oh.

Hmm....

HMMMMMMMM

That's valid.

Bubba, why did you say that about lynching doc?

[Amrun]

Marc, explain your logic. Maybe scum had at least one member offnodneach lynch, but how likely is it that it was the same member, even so? Extremely arbitrary. Poor basis for vote.

[Amrun]

Oh, I misread. Well... I read it properly, but I misunderstood your intent. It's still pretty arbitrary. How do you feel about NS today? Why is bubba's posturing about AJ related to his alignment?

[Amrun]

ps, bubba

something happening one time, in one game doesn't make it "a universal scum tell"

And not putting someone at L-1 early on in a day is never a scum tell

-.-

And scum don't want to out themselves not in LyLo, so they don't quickhammer on "purpose", or even on "accident" to draw attention, so your whole reason for voting kthxbye is silly.

[Amrun]

What?

I said scum DON'T want to do it... Can you read?

[Amrun]

Even though it was the right move, why are you now doing what I say?

[Amrun]

So you suspect me "slightly," but do what I say?

[Amrun]

Unvoting NS, cuz dumb vote.

[Amrun]

so you think scum would quickhammer scum?

WHAT

[Amrun]

oh my god

i think i

i

i think my mind is broken

[Amrun]

VOTE: jon

What do you think of this situation, jon?

[Amrun]

Yup.

Don't get in the way of my methods plz.

[Amrun]

VOTE: jon

What do you think of this situation, jon?

Sorry all, my laptop went belly up. I have to read over the pages since the lynch to get an idea of what's been going on. I have to "Borrow" time on my sis-in-law's desktop until mine is fixed. I'll have some reads and thoughts later today.

And this... only showing up when your name is mentioned to prod dodge... THAT'S scummy, folks.

[Amrun]

@jon: It makes very little difference how long it was between our posts and all the world of difference what you DO post when you have time to post, and it's scummy.

[Amrun]

tbh i glazed over trying to read that case because I have notscience as such firm town

I'll read it

sometime.

[Amrun]

GuyInFreezer, pretending the only town read I've mentioned is notscience is fucking LOL. That's some of the worst misrepping ever.

And NS was obviously referring to me. His pronouns were perfectly in order.

He is town as hell, but sadly wrong.


VOTE: bubba

Once again. Why listen to me and follow my lead if you have anything but a strong town read on me?

[Amrun]

I don't understand the point of that post, then.

[Amrun]

No, and I will NEVER watch a youtube link since I'm usually on my phone. Being scum isn't about "fucking up," it's about being scum. Your reads are no longer coming off as genuine to me. You look like you're scrambling for a mislynch.

For the record, notscience, I don't think you're a VI at all.

[Amrun]

Bubba, not looking at a YouTube video because I'm on my phone is not scummy. Neither is discrediting people's arguments, which is, in fact, a basic tenet of the game.

[Amrun]

If we have 3 scum and an sk in a mini normal, I would be shocked.

[Amrun]

If we mislynch it's okay? Wut?

[Amrun]

Yeah, this doesn't even close to qualify as a policy lynch, and it didn't on day 1 either.

Doesn't make not scum.

[Amrun]

Oh. My. God.

I hate everyone in the world.

[Amrun]

I just can't...

Conflicting reports, shifting claims, literally arguing with town about how they're wrong about how many scum there are...

I am beyond words.

I need a fucking drink.

[Amrun]

Props to you for somehow pulling that off, even though there is no way in hell anyone should have bought it.

[Amrun]

Yeah honestly, you did, but you were far from the only person. Even DV was like "yeah, he looks more town than me" and I was like "sweet baby Jesus please stab me in the fucking face."

Jon probably wins the award for biggest derp though. Shit, dude.

[Amrun]

Your bussing was good. I had you as scum, but I was honestly surprised by not's flip and that's why.

[Amrun]

That'll teach you not to assume.

[Amrun]

The dead qt is worth a read for some laughs.

[Amrun]

Hahaha, NS. Well played.