Mini 1454 - GAME OVER

[jon_h61]

VOTE: notscience
I like science.

[jon_h61]

Sorry, still trying to get used to this newfangled Vote command. Times have sure changed, apparently.

Just so I get this right, you're implying you have played on MS, but it's been awhile? Last question, are you a hydra?

[jon_h61]

^ I was guessing that AngelInFreezer is ArcAngel and GuyIn Freezer?

[jon_h61]

fuzzy's playing toward other Town games I've read, he can be tenacious when he decides someone's scum. I'll have to check out a few of his scum games to be see how he plays scum. I remember once he pulled a gambit that didn't work out so well though for his scum team.

[jon_h61]

On AJ I have nothing to say, the one game we were in together, he said very little, but was Town. I'm leaning Town here.

I'm still not liking fuzzy or bubba, but really I'm letting my dislike of their playstyle get in the way of my scumhunting. If that's how they play either way, it's annoying as shit and I hope they're the

night kills

tonight, but I need to start looking elsewhere for scum.

How do you know there'll be more than one NK?

Ninja'd - I agree that of all the garbage arguing, Amrun seemed to have dodged the most scrutiny. Still, there's a lot of ego coming out there which isn't necessarily scum-motivated...

I take this as a Town read then?

Vote: JKMathews

I really disliked his recent post/entrance. As much as I appreciate him for not saying anything horrendous, his post is a lot of IoA and does absolutely nothing to advance the game. He's active lurking and not allowing himself to be read.

JKM, That one Road to Rome game we were in together, your reads were more filled out. Is this a time constraint thing, or are you scum. (An honest answer would be appreciated) heh

That is one of the worst things I've ever heard.

I deserve a hug for having read that.

/hugs

-G half of AiF I see your Town reads, you say it's gonna be easy. Who are your scum reads? I like NotScience for scum too, could you clarify your stance a bit?

I'm going to be null on Bubba for awhile longer. I'm having a hard time getting a grip on him.

fuzzy's Town for the time being.

HookerPunch gets a town read, I liked their reads. Though I'm unsure where you stand on Amrun.

JuanJuan looks Town too, Juan, this is normal fuzzy if that helps. Have you played Mafia anywhere besides here?

Marcmann hasn't given enough to get any kind of read, yet.

I'd rather have NS as a mod over a player, in the one game I've played with him, and others I've followed I can never get a good read on him.

NotScience is my biggest scumspect, and where my vote will be until/unless something bigger comes along.

fuzzy's playing toward other Town games I've read, he can be tenacious when he decides someone's scum. I'll have to check out a few of his scum games to be see how he plays scum. I remember once he pulled a gambit that didn't work out so well though for his scum team.

Tenacity isn't really the reason for my vote. His comment right before felt off to me. Like he was trying to force Juan to back off and follow anything he says.

I'll give fuzzy a Town read, but it doesn't mean I agree with all his reads.

So, in your minds a distraction is someone who I think is town? No. A distraction in my case is

someone whose play waffles back and forth so much

I want to vote them just as much as sheeping them. And bubba, I'm not about to stand by anyones points in this, noone has brought up anything that I can actually find a common thread in my own thoughts.

Of all the things you could say of fuzzy, you pick waffling? I'd say it was anything but waffling. Closer to stonewalling, maybe? Why would you want to sheep fuzzy?

Rob13 Yeah he's scum, I can prove it! He knows all the Townies!

[jon_h61]

Ok, so you can never get a good read on him, but he's your biggest scumspect? Makes sense.

I get it. For real. No sarcasm. Found it funny though. How you say you can't get I good read on him, but he's your biggest suspect. Seems like a self preservation.

We unfortunately have two NSs.
NotScience and NS. As far as I know Not Science has never modded on Mafiascum. NS (Nobody Special) has. When I use NS I will always be referring to NS (Nobody Special). Apologies, NotScience will always (at least in this game) be spelled out by me.

[jon_h61]

So that, in the event their partner gets lynched later in the game, they can go back and say "hey, look, I voted for him here when I thought he was scum, but no one else did."
TL;DR: Town points.

Apologies for being inactive, had my last exam and been on a bit of a bender. Jon, I've played 3 other games not on MS, but all over 2 years ago. Will catch up tonight.

So, in your minds a distraction is someone who I think is town? No. A distraction in my case is someone whose play waffles back and forth so much

I want to vote them just as much as sheeping them

. And bubba, I'm not about to stand by anyones points in this, noone has brought up anything that I can actually find a common thread in my own thoughts.

The bolded is the statement I was asking about.

I changed my mind, I'll call Not Science Not, if he doesn't mind.
Nobody Special has been NS too long to switch now.
Not Science -Not
Nobody Special -NS

[jon_h61]

I have no clue how the top quote box got there? I was reading Bubbajack's last post and responding to it. Gremlins in Mafiascum???

[jon_h61]

Fyi to everyone: noob is not an insult and I never intended it as such. Saying I am more experienced is not having an ego. It is being factual. Anyone with eyes can see it. I am not saying I am some amazingly skilled player, but I have a LOT of games and experience. Somehow saying so and correcting people about serious gaffes in theory is condescending. Sorry if you think so but idc really. Know that I am not trying to insult or imply you're terrible or whatever.

I like playing with more experienced players, and don't mind being called out on bad play. It helps me grow as a player, and I can watch scum hunting techniques I'd not learn otherwise. My experience is all here on mafiascum, and I have a long way to go before I call myself experienced. I'm telling you this so maybe it'll help you get a better read on me if you're Town, which I'm leaning strongly that you are.

The three on Amrun are the three with the lowest amount of mafia knowledge/ms meta by my count. This is probably a frustration wagon and I really don't see much merit to it.

Agree.

@AiF Thanks

[jon_h61]

I smell buddying in the first half of this post. Anyone else?

lol. Does it hurt for people to know my experience? I was bringing it up because of earlier posts.

[jon_h61]

"I'm telling YOU this so you can get a better read on me because I think you're town" I see buddying, I'm not retracting that statement. I'd like to know why.

OK, call it buddying. The label's OK by me. Is there something wrong with wanting a strong Town bloc? My question to you, why does it bother you so bad? I'm not going to tell you to meta me, but I always try to clear Town. It definitely helps PoE, and can scare the hell out of scum.

[jon_h61]

Hi Hoopla, thanks for joining the game! Happy Birthday!

Another experienced player I can buddy, yea!

[jon_h61]

@ AJ you forgot to give a reason for your accusation. You gave a reason for Hookerpunch. If it's (I haven't contributed enough). You do realize this is a holiday weekend, right? There is Meat World out there too. But I guess we have to start somewhere.

Also, to your issue with me: One, I have a good amount of weekend hours at my job and two, NS wagon would've had an interesting flip. Think of the level of play coming off the wagon. Their reactions would be SO EASY to read the next day after a flip. It would spell disaster for all scum because the majority of them are basic players, as Amrun said. That's why I liked the NS wagon... As a scapegoat, it was a mildly scummy person with a mildly scummy wagon that would've revealed some interesting notes with a flip and given us scum had NS not been scum.

It was fantastically designed to catch all the younger players and separate town to scum.

Now we just have to look in and vote Jon out.

You just had me go through all the vote counts looking for where you voted NS, just to find out you meant NotScience. Can we come to a general consensus to call him Not, Science, or anything but NS? Can you explain a little of what your "fantastically designed" trap got you? Personally I think it failed, on both parts. I didn't like HP's comments on "not being a PR", but I think he's Town ATM.

I just reread the quote. It sounds like you're trying to defuse the wagon. Do you think Not's Town then? OR you his scum buddy?

[jon_h61]

My initial feeling about notscience was gut-based. He feels scummy in an obvious way, but he doesn't make sense as scum in the context of the game and my other reads, which is why I changed my mind. The slow build-up and static nature of the wagon with people not bothering to budge off it nor analyse it beyond the surface makes it seem a lot more likely that scum is just capitalising on an easy target, rather than scum having being caught.

I actually agree with this. In my game that Uberninja modded, (AJ was in it too, though mostly a non-presence) the Wagon on Maestro played out mostly the same. I've been keeping a close eye on this wagon, because of the similarities. Though on that wagon I was pressuring Maestro pretty hard at the end.

I'm honestly leaning more Town on Not ATM, but wanted to see what developed. I didn't get anything concrete unfortunately.

My main observation ATM is how Juan went from defending me to a soft push that I may be scum after AJ's attack on me. I find it a lot more suspicious than AJ's. AJ's felt Town motivated, Juan's felt opportunistic.

UNVOTE: for now.

[jon_h61]

Oh, and nice implication with false options. I neither think Notscience is town nor is he my buddy. I simply believe the results of his lynch would be fantastic. What's awesome is the fact that you think I meant to DEFUSE the wagon. Here's a little side note for you: The only person who'd be particularly worried about this post is scum. I just let on to an idea which I believed to be almost fool-proof to catch scum. You, however, are now worried and wondering if that post would defuse the wagon when in fact, only scum would be worried about my capabilities to catch scum from it, hence trying to back down or attack it as invalid. No part of my post implied stopping the wagon, just that I could find the scum on it.

OK, then since I unvoted before I read your post, I'm scum then. And I was worried? You're not doing a good job of scum hunting ATM, TBH.

[jon_h61]

@jon, seeing as you posted while I was posting: I was posting my reads for everyone, so how that could be an opportunistic attack on you specifically, I don't really know. I was picking up on what I read in your ISO, like I did for AJ. Where did I defend you, by the way?

If anything, what you've just done against me comes off as opportunistic, trying to push peoples interests in a different direction.

You had defended me in 280, well it kinda looked that way to me at least. I guess I somehow missed your reads post. I started reading at AJ's post. Then after what he wrote, I read your soft push. I was wrong, you did voice suspicion before AJ's post. I apologize, and retract that statement.

[jon_h61]

I dunno too many ISO windows open. I'm confused. I'm shutting them all down and starting over.

[jon_h61]

JuanX2 is looking awful scared after a few votes,


pedit AiF "I agree with that those 3 players were being pretty apathetic, but I have Juan as one of my strongest townread, so I don't like your vote there." Explain.

"Posts like this rarely, if not never, comes from scum. Especially admitting that he made a bad choice and stuff. He can be in my townpile now." - I'm not saying Hooker's scum, I'm saying your logic is faulty and bad.

JX2 "Apathy isn't hard to fake, and there's no chance of making a scumslip. I'm not sold on jon's alignment either way, but joking and seeming candid doesn't in my eyes stick out as a town indicator."- AiF, you need to explain that Town read you say you have. I'm on the fence with him, but leaning scum.

"I agree with your case on NS, but the extreme lurkiness is

actually his meta

." - Agree

"Put your vote back on notscience plz."Done
VOTE: Not Science

@ AJ The one game I played with you, you were pretty much a non-presence (you were Town), but here you're much more forceful. I hope this is your Town game this time.

[jon_h61]

@ -G Where's -A? Is that ArcAngel2 BTW?

[jon_h61]

You care far too much about what other people think, rather than actually scumhunting

I call bs, but then that's your opinion. My

reason

is right above it, and I can care less if you like the reason or not. I'm leaning Town on AiF

way

more than you or Not, so I'll give his words more consideration when it comes to my votes.

[jon_h61]

BTW, wouldn't scum not hop on a wagon if "people suggest that the wagon on Science is town", your logic has holes.

[jon_h61]

My scum reads are double teaming me. Wow big surprise. I'd love to hear some more, you know, for posterity's sake.
I don't have time now, but I'll be back later for more than one liners.

[jon_h61]

@ juan I was talking about my one liners.

Be back later.

[jon_h61]

It was a good post, but that doesn't make him town, Bubba.

I'm having a hard time with you this game. If you're Town, you need to step it up. What are you talking about in this post? Conciseness is great, but right now, your game is lacking.

Like this post

No one would take me seriously if I explained my reason for keeping my vote on him and saying he is scum.

Pretty sure he's scum though.

Is this supposed to make us take you seriously? Please give us some reads we can take serious.

Did I say sheep me? No, I didn't. Cases have been made against you. Others think you are scum. Usually, when people think they find scum, they want them lynched.

Frankly, I think it's you who is sheeping, and not giving any reasons for doing so. I'm not buying the

"I think Bubba is scum." I told you, my RVS vote is usually scum. Happens all the time.

I've let you slide so far, but you might be my next vote. I'm only holding off because I've seen your play, both as scum and Town. If you're trying to make a meta to hide as scum in, you're well on your way. I don't mean to lambaste you, but if you're Town, you really need to start helping us.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ AJ you're playing completely different from the one game I've played with you. You've attacked me, but you so far have refused to answer any of my questions. I know you're big on reaction tests, but so far I'd say your reactions aren't Town oriented. I'm becoming convinced you're scum, but I can only vote once.

Your attacks on me are just fantasy you're trying to push across as fact. You're trying to stick emotions on me that aren't even close to real. You talk about this elaborate trap as if it's foolproof, but it has no substance. I don't see your play as Town motivated.

His reads weren't definitive of his whole stance, Bubba. When dealing with that, you want hard answers to compare for later, not hidden references to which one can say "It was just a feeling".

I know this was about JKM. Is my stance clear enough for later?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bubba, your scum hunting, but we seem to be going in different directions right now. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. Just that I'm watching.

[jon_h61]

And most important to me: Every time he looks at me, he brings up meta of one game. A game were I had almost no participation because I was coaching my mason buddy and hoping to keep a mason intact until Lylo. My actual meta could be read, but Jon thinks that he's got one game for a know-all end-all on my meta. It's truly another pathetic copout.

I like that you're actually in the game this time, but you're just blowing smoke. I almost want to give you a Town read, but I just can't. Before you went full-on attack I asked you about it. You ignored my questions, then try to come on like this scum hunting god. Well, be ready to eat crow, because you're not as good as you think.

All of his posts have a high noise to content ratio. In 253, almost all his reads are town but one.

His nulls are "I can't read this person"

. Jon's being non-confrontational, trying to stay away from any arguments by any means necessary. He picked one wagon on the newest player and doesn't try to scum hunt at all. Finds no one better to vote for. He unvotes in 334 for no apparent reason (It's actually from my post where I say I could catch scum on Not's wagon after a flip. He was pressured out).

My nulls, Post 253 "I'm going to be null on Bubba for awhile longer. I'm having a hard time getting a grip on him.",
"Marcmann hasn't given enough to get any kind of read, yet.",
and "I'd rather have NS as a mod over a player, in the one game I've played with him, and others I've followed I can never get a good read on him."
Wow such logic! I'm suprised you don't win every game.

Next " Jon's being non-confrontational, trying to stay away from any arguments by any means necessary." - Yeah, uh huh, right.

"He unvotes in 334 for no apparent reason (

It's actually from my post where I say I could catch scum on Not's wagon after a flip. He was pressured out

)". - I hadn't even read you're post yet, but if it helps inflate your ego, go ahead and believe that. Besides, I can't prove it, can I?

After saying JuanX2 sounded 'scared after a few votes', he makes it look like he's going to vote Jaun. But instead votes notscience because someone told him to

. See the non-aggression, non-confrontation stance he has? Jon literally wants to stick away from ALL the action. In 386, he claims his 'scum reads' are attacking him. I still don't see a second read.

And most important to me: Every time he looks at me, he brings up meta of one game. A game were I had almost no participation because I was coaching my mason buddy and hoping to keep a mason intact until Lylo. My actual meta could be read, but Jon thinks that he's got one game for a know-all end-all on my meta. It's truly another pathetic copout.

Yes, I did do as AiF asked, you're so very right there.
You like that phrase "non-confrontation" don't you? You keep harping about meta, but never explained it until now.

This perfectly describes Jon's whole game. Non-confrontational, not involved, pot shots from the side, and trying his best to stay away from the spotlight.

He hasn't even responded to wagon pressure

.

If you say it enough times then it must be true, huh? What am I supposed to do? Cry like a little girl? Or say OH this AJ's too tough for me to handle, and throw up my hands and replace out? I don't have a scum PM, and all your posturing can't change that.

Now you'll probably something like "he didn't scum hunt, but spent all his time on defense" or something similar I'm sure.

[jon_h61]

@ AJ Two quick questions. Why do you say Not isn't Town, but also call him a misslynch? The second is maybe more an observation than a question, but reading through your ISO, I get the feeling you know you're addressing Town when speaking to me?

From your ISO I copied every quote that could be construed as an attack. Up until you lambasting me, you weren't exactly a force to be reckoned with. So it's like the pot calling the kettle black when you try to paint me as non-confrontational.

I was mainly concerned with two other games yesterday, one was at deadline. So they got my attention and the time I had for Mafia yesterday. Today I'm scum hunting here, so I hope that makes you feel better.

[jon_h61]

My firm Town reads right now are AJ, Bubba, and kthxbye. I don't care if their reads match up or not, I think all three are actually trying to find scum.

Their motives are pure

, at least that's the way I see it. I'm not going to make big cases for any of them, and yeah I know, I'm supposed to be scum hunting, not Town hunting. Later in the game everyone will know where I stood now, and hopefully it'll help with later scum hunting.

To cut off the argument that this helps scum direct their NKs, do you really think they need our help to figure out who Town is? I think they'll use their own agendas to decide who to NK.

Still doing ISOs.

[jon_h61]

HP sounds like scum trying to buddy.

I'm displaying no forethought, because I NEVER display forethought.

Carpe Diem, bitches.

fuzzy hasn't displayed any forethought all game, he just keeps up the bs. I'm beginning to think he's scum this time around. I'm going to look at a few of his games, but for now...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: fuzzybutternut
Be back later to see if this one sticks.

[jon_h61]

um, fuzzy, aren't you 18 now? You need to update your stats.

[jon_h61]

AJ and notscience both fell victim to a double-post within 10 posts of each other, both voting for HP. Perhaps I'm seeing faces in the fog, but this seems like it's too much to be random.

That takes the weirdest scum tell I've ever seen award.

Gotta go cook dinner.
Runs, hides under the stove.

[jon_h61]

Jon is being really squeamish under pressure, jumping around, trying to find somewhere he can sit on and not get questioned over it. Raises an alarm bell for me.

OK, I'm done hiding under my stove (dinner was good too, sorry ya missed it) How am I doing this? Honestly. I want to know. Bring the questions on, I'd like to hear them.

It sounds like you're echoing AJ, and trying to make his attack look to have more substance. BTW your ISO's coming up!

As far as scum and directing NKs: In all the times I've played scum, I never relied on town's townreads to influence the nightkill. It's just stupid to do, as scum.

I know, but I've heard this stupid argument more than once.

This is the point in the game I'd like to see someone at L-1.

VOTE: HP

To those who said they wanted to vote him, do so now plox.

Why do you want someone at L-1?

It helps bring out their true colors.

[jon_h61]

1) jon_h61 votes for notscience on the opening page, and other than one brief mention on page 11; "NotScience is my biggest scumspect, and where my vote will be until/unless something bigger comes along." -

he has not said a single thing about notscience. Even that one sentence on him is lacking

. If notscience flips town, jon_h61 needs to come under fire for sitting on notscience all day without even attempting to figure out his alignment. Conversely, if notscience is scum, jon is probably town. Scum don't needlessly sit on a random vote all day on their buddy. But it is suspicious if notscience is town.

This is what I get from being I too many games. I don't know how you people who play multiple games ever do it. Earlier today I almost voted someone who wasn't even in this game. Honest. From now on it's a limit of two at a time for me. As far as the " if Not is scum, jon is Town" and "if Not is Town, Jon is scum" I'd like a little more explanation,because these things elude me. I'm sure it's supposed to be an associative tell of some kind. I wonder if anyone's ever studied this tell to see how often it really works.

pedit Like Bob Seger says "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then!"

ppedit keep saying it enough, it might come true? Nope still not scum.

[jon_h61]

fuzzy the only game I got to of yours today you replaced into a scum slot, and immediately died. It wasn't any help.

[jon_h61]

of course you would Not, it'd take the heat off you, duh.

[jon_h61]

One of these days I'm gonna try that style where you grab a weakass tell and ride it for all it's worth and try to make the person crumble by shear force of will. It might be fun. But for now I'll just keep going through ISO's and looking things over. I think motives is the best tell I've come up with yet. It actually seems to work.

Like what is Not's motive, ATM it appears to move suspicion AND the conversation away from him. Why, is what I'm looking for.

[jon_h61]

Town points for marcmann, I can agree with that.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: hookerpunch

@ hooker when you played before, did you play often, or just dabble?

[jon_h61]

@ hooker I was the one with the true colors statement. Just so it's clear, and it isn't used against Kthxbye later.

That's L-2

[jon_h61]

@ hooker Thanks for that, I'd bet those skills will come back with a little time! Don't sell yourself short.

[jon_h61]

I swear I voted NS yesterday, and with an explanation that echoed kthxbye's. My thought is I got distracted,(sometimes I have way too many tabs open when I'm scum hunting), and at the end of the night I closed the browser without realizing the post never got posted. I do know I started writing it after Rob's comment about taking all NS votes for NS.

tl;dr NS's actions are very suspicious coming from an experienced player

and

mod. I'll listen to his explanation, but I'm not sure I'll buy it. This is a vote to lynch.
VOTE: NS

[jon_h61]

Missing AngelInFreezer, Have you ever gotten with Angel? I'm gonna start calling you Freezer if she doesn't show up soon.

I'm going to devote a good chunk (hopefully) of time to Mafiascum today, and try to weed out a few scum along the way!
So if anyone has need of me, I'll probably answer back pretty quickly.

[jon_h61]

I'm leaning towards JuanJuan and/or AJ as scum. I really don't think NS is scum. His hammer was too anti-town to be actual scum.

I'm not willing to change my vote until I hear from him. I'm not buying the "it's too scummie to be coming from scum" theory. He better have something good to say. BUT if we can find better fish to fry Day 2, I might be willing to lend a vote.

[jon_h61]

Sorry all, I'm having computer issues, but hopefully I'll get them fixed ASAP. I'll read over the game and Get back into it later today. If my laptop cooperates.

[jon_h61]

VOTE: jon

What do you think of this situation, jon?

Sorry all, my laptop went belly up. I have to read over the pages since the lynch to get an idea of what's been going on. I have to "Borrow" time on my sis-in-law's desktop until mine is fixed. I'll have some reads and thoughts later today.

[jon_h61]

And this... only showing up when your name is mentioned to prod dodge... THAT'S scummy, folks.

Whatever, I posted when I got here. I guess if you want to push a beetlejuice tell though, go for it. I notice it was ten minutes short of twenty four hours when I made my post, but if you see it as "only showing up when your name is mentioned to prod dodge..." so be it.

@ GiF I'm interested in your Town reads ATM. I'm leaning Town on you, and think we can get a strong Town Bloc going if we play our cards right. I really think Not is scum, and he sounds like he thinks he's safe from Town right now. Or at least that's the way I'm seeing it. I'm leaning strong Town on Kthxbye.

I'm still unsure of Amrun, her cockiness is throwing off my read on her.

I'll be back around later.

Oh yeah,
VOTE: NotScience

[jon_h61]

@ MOD I'll be v/la til Sunday afternoon sometime. We're going camping/fishing for my wife's b-day.

@ Amrun I'd be interested in any case that doesn't use this beetlejuice tell as evidence.

I apologize for my lack of participation this game, but it's circumstances beyond my control.

[jon_h61]

@ GiF I'd like to hear what your PR is, I know you've visited someone who wasn't Not. With you outing yourself yesterday, you should have no problem explaining your actions. Town needs your info today before you're NKd. That is If you are Town.

I'll look into other scum after I hear from GiF.

[jon_h61]

@ GiF I know where you went Day 1, and I have them as a Town read. Since they are still around it makes me convinced you're Town too.

OK, scum are not me, GiF, Kthxbye, and Bubba. I'm leaning Town on NS. That leaves marcmann and DeasVail.

@ marcmann I notice in your ISO you've voted juanx2 several times. Do you have anything convincing on him?

@ Juan marcmann asked you your reads in 964. You never posted until 985, but never mentioned your reads.
I'll ask you this time, do you have any reads you'd be willing to share?

I forgot he was replaced, but I think this could still be relevant in making reads on the slot.
@ DV Have you read enough to develope any reads yet?

[jon_h61]

@ NS we need some input from you.

I'd like your opinion of what's been revealed today, for me you're leaning Town, but not enough to completely trust you. The others, I'm pretty confident on.


I think for now
VOTE: DeasVail

Oh, thanks for being able to join us!

[jon_h61]

I don't have anything on Marcmann.

@ NS What are you referring to in 1118? I watched kthxbye, and Aif visited them. That's why I asked GiF his reads Day 2 including kthxbye as one of my Town reads. I was hoping he was a cop and cleared him. Then when he claimed an even day tracker, that really threw a loop into my read. But kthxbye never died, and there are only two reasons I could think of for that. GiF being Town (which I suspected) or a rolecop who got vanilla. I still feel GiF's Town.

I don't think we really need MC today.

[jon_h61]

If Gif watched, or I tracked a Commuter, what would happen? I don't have any experience with Commuters. The wiki says they leave Town and are not target-able. Other than that I'm not real clear on their play.

[jon_h61]

EBWOP Vice versa GiF track, me watch.