Mini 1591: PFs Flavorless Normal (Game Over)

[Squirrel Girl]

Hellooooooooooo!

So why am I the crazy neighbor on the lonely wagon?

[Squirrel Girl]

Well, I could be a crazy grandmother, but then that would be insulting to older folks.

What's the Pops and or IAI case and/or where can I get a quick refresher course in them?

[Squirrel Girl]

The difference being that grandmother isn't an actual role.

And neighbor is still a normal word in the English language that makes sense in context with the sentence posted.

But I don't want to have to watch what I say all the time so you can track me like a cop or paranoid gun owning vigilante ninja serial killer, unless I get a bullet proof vest and the governor on my side to backup my commentary like a brother mason armed with a lie detector worthy enough to jail a godfather and block his role cold like an undertaker grabbing an innocent child princess from some some lovers.

Here's my pops stuff. idk how useful it'll be without having read the game though.

I read over the links,a nd had to link some links to get it in perspective.
Your core issue seems to be his thought about what your read was or wasn't on RC, yeah?

[Squirrel Girl]

Like, basically you think he lied about that and also had some hypocrisy in later commenting that you did some read bad based on a town read on someone? (though I don't think I saw the link to that moment, but it was inferred.)

[Squirrel Girl]

As someone voting the other wagon, wanna explain that one?

[Squirrel Girl]

And hypocrisy isn't a pure scumtell - but it can show a lack of care for logic, and that can be an indication of scumminess if the player otherwise plays logically.
It's certainly a pretty reasonable 'let's lynch the guy because, hey, poor logic' tell though.

[Squirrel Girl]

Other than the IAI lie thing I felt I pretty much got that - I'll look for the lie to see if it sells me any.

@Singer - is Sleepy correctly representing your belief in the case? Because I have to admit I'm not particularly sold by it as a case, so I'm curious if you agree that thi sis indeed the case you also support, or if you are advocating the lynch, but have a different case altogether?

[Squirrel Girl]

Why you?
Because you're here.
And because I'm going to eat your brains in a few seconds.
Because I'm a zombie.
Life is pretty deep sometimes.

I mostly think scummy for things like such as for doing something something like he resigned to losing and probably something g self I'm forgettjng

I see your response and offer a reasoned assessment of - bwuh?
I'm pretty sure this is English - but you lost me.

[Squirrel Girl]

So, is it the not backing up his belief that RC was a suspect of Sleepy? You have an issue with that - anything else, or is that basically the point?

[Squirrel Girl]

@Farside - thanks, also I think I got to see the IAI lie thing Sleepy was talking about now, yeah? That explains why I didn't recall seeing it earlier as it's functionally the same thing he was saying about Sleepy, so I guess I just combined them. I'm going to say that your case, to a large degree, does look the same as the case Sleepy has - your big issue does also seem to revolve around the belief pops expressed of a scum lean towards RC and the theoretical soft push on RC and you're also having issue with the Drew vote.

I'll admit I don't get the Drew vote issue - that seems reasonable as an action paired with his stated beliefs. Maybe I'm just dumb and am missing it, but I don't really see the fire there.
I'll also admit - I have no idea why scum would even sweat a bodyguard. Frankly, bodyguard always sort of struck me as a dumb role, really. Like, if I was scum and someone was a bodyguard it's like 'meh, who cares?' The only way it matters is if they happen to protect an investigative role, really. Maybe I'm coming from a weird position there, but I have no idea why scum would even bother soft pushing on a Bodyguard. Don't tell Sleepy I said Bodyguard though...

@Cyberbob - do you have any reason at all I should think IAI is scum? I keep looking at these cases (and drunk rambles) for why pops is town and I'm all like 'oooh, they're long, and have *quotes* in them!" so I'm all like, guess maybe they must be true! Can you explain why you're not voting for pops already and seem to have this insane belief that poor IAI is scum?

[Squirrel Girl]

I'll admit I don't get the Drew vote issue - that seems reasonable as an action paired with his stated beliefs. Maybe I'm just dumb and am missing it, but I don't really see the fire there.

He is saying that he voted Drew because he HAD to pick one of Drew/CD, and decided that Drew was a slightly less bad choice. What actually happened was he called Drew scummy. Has pops ever even tried to contest this point?

Yeah, but, what exactly was the scum plan there?

I called this guy scummy before, but *now* I need to distance from it - haha!

It doesn't really make sense. Also, the picking of Drew over Dog does make sense from his expressed reads on both, and he made the comment that he thought Dog was less likely to be scum, and voted someone both of you agree he had called scummy and did this in preference of voting a claimed PR though he was expressing his issue with the PR. It just doesn't sound either disassociated from his reads nor does it seem like some brilliantly needed scum distance - he basically voted someone he called scummy and pointed out that he found another player less scummy than them.

[Squirrel Girl]

In short squirel, pops is not scum hunting.

Yeah, and he seems to lack logic. I agree he's not going to be a bad dark stabbing lynch.

[Squirrel Girl]

The problem isn't that he voted Drew or claimed to find him scummy. The problem is that after the flip, pops has been acting like Drew wasn't a scumread.

I did a search and couldn't really back this comment up. All I did was a Ctril+F of 'Drew' on his ISO.

Prior to the lynch there is this
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6084355
and this
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6086478

After the lynch, nothing that he says seems to disagree with his thoughts as expressed prior to the lynch.
Can you show me where you think he changed his tune?
Because what I see seems to make sense. He thought it was a decent info lynch, found the slot to be scummish, never found it a strong read, and found Dog less scummy.
I literally don't even know where you're getting your version of the events from.

Can you back it up?

Also looking over Dessew's link-o-rama now.

[Squirrel Girl]

1188 (compare it with post 1408)

I don't get this at all - can you explain?

Wasn't the Vig claim made *after* the lynch had happened? Because I read IAI calling people scummy for lynching a provable role - but that only makes sense if the claim came prior to the lynch. Can someone clarify? What I read made it look like the claim came after.

[Squirrel Girl]

Want to make an easy link - or are you happy with what Dessew said and endorse it as your case?

[Squirrel Girl]

Wasn't the Vig claim made *after* the lynch had happened?

Correct.
I'll do your other stuff later or maybe someone will hammer please

Are you okay with IAI calling people scummy for lynching a "confirmable" role - when they didn't know that?
I'm asking this because a big part of your case on Pops seems to be about lies - so I'm curious of your attitude towards this lie.

Not a fan of Cyberbob's case.
IAI's vote on Pops looks *way* more survival minded than the Pops vote on IAI.

@Farside - is town Pops a more active scumhunter than this Pops?

[Squirrel Girl]

I like what I've read of Red, Dessew, and Sleepy.
I will clarify that I don't like what Sleepy is selling, but the attitude feels town - like, I don't think scum would marry themselves to a case like what he's married to right now.

I seem to recall reading that Goofy was cleared - is Goofy cleared? That would make me feel better about that wagon.

[Squirrel Girl]

I think my IAI issue is actually what he's saying kind of feels like multiple little slips because of the town case he's trying to sell on himself that doesn't make much sense unless he knows the alignments of unflipped players or expects his detractors to.

The lie thing I'm indifferent about, it's kind of a derpy misrep, but it is honestly about the same as Pops getting the wrong(?) vibe from IAI as to what IAI was selling - which actually seems reasonable considering how bouncy he is. I'm mostly pinging on it just because multiple Pops voters (Sleepy and Farside) have issue with lies - but no issue with that lie, which has to be just as big of a lie. Heck, it's actually a less interpretive lie, really, so it's probably objectively a purer lie - and it's also being used to present scum reads. SO I really don't get why one is an issue and the other isn't.

I'd also really like farside to sell me on the non-scumhunting thing. i happily agree that's bad, but unless Pops is normally an active scumhunter when town it seems like a playstyle tell being dressed up.

Vote: Farside

I'm putting that out to clarify my own thoughts currently as to the vote I'd want if it was up only to me.
Depending on some answers I get I may move.
Or if I get a lot of sudden sheep I may not Just saying.

[Squirrel Girl]

So instead of meta searching the player in question doing nothing you ask me his meta and vote me?
That seems opposite land.
Is my case saying all meta.....no. I stated his lack of scum reads and push. You think that comes from town? Why?

I presumed when you had cited that as scummy from him and voted him that you already had an awareness of the meta and knew/suspected this wasn't play that would come from him as town. Was I wrong to presume that?

Maybe it is opposite land, I've had my logic called...(wait for it)....squirrely.

He has certainly expressed scum reads, I can tell that just by going over his iso. I will agree he hasn't pushed scumreads functionally today - but I ask why you presume that to be something he is normally capable of doing and is choosing to not do in this game?

I also note you're trying to frame me into a false debate. I never said his actions justified a town case. I do think they justify a playstyle case,a nd I also could *easily* show you town playing poorly and not scumhunting. Is that really a shocking idea to you, like you've never seen it before? That sounds insane if true.

[Squirrel Girl]

Deal

[Squirrel Girl]

I'm scumreading both of them. pops lynch is better because I made a pops case that I think is good.

I have to love you because of Chris Pratt - but I have to hate you for this answer

Do you have more townreads voting Pops? Because that might at least justify the stance, if not then I will somehow overcome the cuteness of the avatar and just hate you.

[Squirrel Girl]

Lol@voting farside.

Anyway. I no longer care who we lynch today but would still like to lean towards the claimed VT at L-1

Not sure if serious...

[Squirrel Girl]

@Farside - I find your links really unconvincing. I am actually almost happy that they are as jumbled as they are - because I misunderstood what the alignment of he was before reading. There was one I read where I was like 'oh, he's posting every day, but it's short, and he's scum' then there was one where he was massive on the info, and you indicated he was town, and I was all like, yeah, this is town pops and is *not* what he is doing here...but upon review I discovered that you had mislinked this one (or been confused about his actual alignment) and he was scum in that game, not town.

Looking them over, I do not think you have shown a functional link between his activity or scumhunting and his alignment.
I am mildly sold by the Day 1 lynch one...just because he tried to throw out thoughts prior to death...but will admit to feeling you're a little skeevy in tossing that one up as an example of his clarity, as he spent half his posts aware he was soon to be dead.

I would also note, that though that shows an L-1 Pops being helpful, we also had a scum Pops self-hammering at L-1. I think it's fair to presume there are some shifts in his play even within the small batch you looked at, and I'm surprised it's so clear to you. I don't like it either.

@Sleepy - why is Farside town? I think that is probably wrong.

[Squirrel Girl]

"Potentially" then? Maybe 'possibly' that sounds a bit more like a conclusion than potentially but without the stronger vibe of probably which sounds like a >50% sorta comment.

I do still stand by my previously stated commentary about your reads

I still feel like I'm floundering a bit without enough reactions to ping from other people. Singer's drunk antics were not as rewarding as the beginning of this sentence should seem to imply them to be. Cyberbob is basically checked out for...some reason. Goofy about the same. I don't think I've even seen Red in thread yet. Both IAI and Pops have been here, but have just been doing generic defensive flail - so not much to vibe with there.

[Squirrel Girl]

I almost find myself wondering if town is just debating between lynching the two weakest looking players.
It's about what the cases feel about - they're practically mirror images.

[Squirrel Girl]

It was a bad joke - basically I town read you but find your logic not sheepable.

[Squirrel Girl]

The two that say town he was town.
Not sure why you were confused or saying I mislead anything there squirel.

Well, you provided five links, four of them you labeled as him town, one you labeled as him scum - the reality was three were scum and two were town.

So he hammered one game and doesn't hammer here therefore he's town?
Please explain that logic compared to where he was town being voted and telling people his reads before he was lynched and not doing it here.

My point is that he isn't a cut and dry player. If he did the one thing as scum, and the one as town, and is doing neither here - then there is no functional conclusion to draw unless the argument is that he's 3rd party now.

Also one of the scum link that broke he was lynched in and did not self vote there squirel

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3521605

Yeah...that would be a game he was nightkilled in.
This is *totally* selling me on your meta skills and your trustworthiness...no, wait, it's the other thing, the not trusting thing.

Why didn't you do your own meta research? If the behavior is scummy and I show a more active town pops why is he town based on not hammering squirel?

Of the games linked, his most active and aggressive one he was scum in.

I'd also be willing to take your 'last reads' challenge with him - I'll do it later today when I have time.

Squirrel girl, what do u think of a player who is asked to produce his or her reads on all players but refuses to do so? Esp when they are tunneling one player, and have been on both confirmed town wagons?

I would find them anti-town.
I do not want to get into your weird world of town wagons debate because you make weird claims about what we can or cannot know.

Also please define weakest looking players, cause I do take offense to that.

I am sorry you take offense - to that I would offer this thought; do you think you are often mislynched because other players don't agree/understand your playstyle?
We can change the comment to 'most mislynchable looking players' and my point and stance will hold fine.

What's the point in replacing in and then giving a running commentary of who isn't living up to your standards.

What's the point of replacing in and not pointing out the players that are not?

Not to mention the fact that your target scum right now is because, as far as I can tell...she doesn't make sense? You're not the only one having a hard time understanding her but what about it makes her scum? That she should know better because of meta?

I have expressed a few times how I think the manuvers Farside is doing are scum minded. She is being selective and narrow minded in her scope - also, not that when I first called her out on meta (something she admitted to not doing) her first reaction was a sudden lash out at me - when literally all I had done was ask if she'd done that research. Then she does the research and - shock of shocks - finds evidence to support her claim...until you actually start looking at the evidence and asking questions. Also, note her attitude towards IAI as compared to Pops and then compare the cases. Even Sleepy the tunnel king actually feels comfortable admitting that he scum reads both - as well he should since they've done the same stuff. But Farside acts surprised I even have that conclusion - while still sticking to her guns that it is Pops, not IAI, who looks scummy...for reasons...

That doesn't make you nervy about her?

It makes me nervy as hell - what have you figured out from trying to understand her?

[Squirrel Girl]

Actually, I think I sold myself, and we only have two days left and it doesn't look like my cuteness factor has kicked in yet for sheeping;

Unvote: Farside
Vote: IAI

L-1

If this is a scum flip - I would highly suggest a Farside lynch next. Like, highly, highly.

[Squirrel Girl]

So he hammered one game and doesn't hammer here therefore he's town?

Also one of the scum link that broke he was lynched in and did not self vote there squirel

I really want to also call out the word shift from hammer to vote - made between two posts that are back to back.
Also note, in the game he is discussing there was neither a self vote nor a hammer - because Pops was night killed.
This is just disingenuous.

[Squirrel Girl]

I love this feeling.

[Squirrel Girl]

It took me a second to translate - but that was an intent to hammer statement.

So;

@IAI - claim, please and thank'ee

[Squirrel Girl]

We have 857 words for 'acorn'.

[Squirrel Girl]

@IAI - it has happened, Sleepy expressed hammer intent, you have just shown you're not reading the thread and/or that you're intentionally delaying your claim to try to work on your fake claim.

Less scummy, though still skimmy. I'm content with the lynch still.

@Farside - haven't found a scum one where he offered last reads. I did find a town one where his last reads consisted solely of 'lynch lurkers, I guess' so now we have established as town that he doesn't always offer helpful last reads.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=17629

[Squirrel Girl]

Squirrel u are either scum or suck at this game, just saying.

I guess I hate you too?

[Squirrel Girl]

Just so you're aware, you insulted me, and I didn't insult you except for the one comment that I immediately apologized for and clarified my intent with the comment. You told me I sucked, and seemed happy that I wasn't happy with that as a reply. I'm pretty sure I'm not the rude one here.

What would I have learned from a meta dive of you?

[Squirrel Girl]

Also might clue u in between my town and scum play.

Interesting how u look into pops meta to defend him, but just make blanket assumptions about me.

I didn't make an assumption about you beyond indicating a belief that you were a player being drawn up more for playstyle than actions.
That's actually not even a scummy call, functionally I was suggesting you were maybe just town getting a bad beef.
Why do you think I was using that to suggest you are scum.

Also, you're not lynched yet - what meta should I be looking at and for what?

[Squirrel Girl]

Well there was a caveat in there, u could be scum instead.

[Squirrel Girl]

Pick any game other than my previous 2, which I flaked due to real life issues.

What am I looking for?

Why did u use it for pops and not me?

I didn't - I asked Farside if she had used it, and then later pointed out how she was sort of not being honest in her conclusions.
If my case on you was based off meta I probably would have meta-ed you. But it isn't, so I didn't.

[Squirrel Girl]

I've looked at a couple, I'm not seeing anything leaping out to me as a difference in your playstyle.
The most I got is you are way less wall-y in this game, but I've found you as both town and scum dropping walls, so it really doesn't say anything to me.

[Squirrel Girl]

If u think I'm scum, me providing links doesn't work (scum IAI will show scum games different from my play style here and town games similar to my play style here).

What would you define as the difference - then I can do the research and see if it backs you up?

[Squirrel Girl]

In any case, to be honest I don't read farside's arguments so much as I read the emotion behind them as town. I have a hard time believing that scum have to try very hard to push anyone in this game and yet she and cyberbob are uncompromising because they believe they are without a doubt right.

Could be a crazy ploy but yeah, I feel like scum could easily justify either wagon and not be pressured nearly as much as they seem to be today.

You get this frowny face for complaining about me trying to figure out Farside apparently with no actual traction of your own to discuss.

Also, can you point m to where Cyberbob or Farside really felt bought in emotionally o you? I don't get that from either of them, yet am getting it from Sleepy in spades and you apparently don't get it from him because you didn't mention that. Just looking at the game from the point I came in I see Sleepy being loud, proud, aggressive, and focused about his thoughts, but paired with awareness of other things - that reads as town to me. Cyberbob basically stated hi thing, backed it up a bit, and then left in a huff the didn't feel obviously real and could have just been a fake way to avoid having to defend anything for days on end. He reacted to me saying 'I'm not sure' about his case by giving up on me? When his case is at L-1? To try to force through a deadline lynch? I didn't feel any buy-in there. Farside is focused, and is making cases, but the cases seem hollow considering the similarities between the two wagons and Farside not even discussing why one is good or bad besides making the meta claim about scumhunting, a claim she backed up awkwardly and with, in my opinion, a pretty clear showing of dishonesty in how the evidence was being presented that makes me question the motives all the more.

What are your thoughts?

[Squirrel Girl]

Neither.

[Squirrel Girl]

Your claimed scum meta had you fakeclaiming a cop - that doesn't tend to suggest that you're a wallflower when scum.
I'll agree you're not a wallflower in this game, but clearly your playstyle is a bold one - so I don't think that's something that is different depending on your alignment.
Are you saying it is? Like, you're not bold when scum?

[Squirrel Girl]

I also found you claiming scum when scum.
And being pretty aggressive as scum.

[Squirrel Girl]

Will you vote cyberbob when I flip town?

Well, I will admit I'm voting you actually to learn about Farside, insomuch as I think your alignment and Farsides' are likely pretty identical. I have not been particularly sold on Cyberbob, but neither have I been on Singer. Barring other info I'd probably vote one of them if you flipped town though. If you flip scum I'm voting Farside.

[Squirrel Girl]

Okay;

"When you flip town I promise to sheep your read till at least L-1 on Cyberbob tomorrow barring any other role revelations."

That's as good as you'll get from me.

[Squirrel Girl]

Frankly, looking at the current wagon, depending on who hammers, he'd be my only scumread voting you - so it's pretty much a lock if you are town.

[Squirrel Girl]

No you won't unless you're scum.
If you self hammer I promise to just vote park on Red Coyote for the rest of the game until he or I are dead.

[Squirrel Girl]

I also like wagon analysis, and also don't like having to debate if self-hammer claims are coming from scum as a trick, because by the time you figure out it wasn't a trick, a town has gakked up a wagon and self-hammered. So I basically refuse to listen to them and attempt to create a situation where we ignore that they were offered.

[Squirrel Girl]

Has squirel explained why pops is not scum based on meta?
I'm a bit busy for the next 2 days so someone needs to follow up on that.

I addressed a few things about that and responded directly to you about them.
I seriously wish people had just been willing to lynch you first.

If IAI flips town and pops wins as scum I'm going to be a sad panda.

Do you have any other thoughts on the current game state?

[Squirrel Girl]

I was typing up a huge response to Farside, but then realized I'd hate myself if I fell into that trap.
Look, Farside's barrage of posts basically makes two claims that I will show are silly.

1. That I am saying the meta shows that Pops is town, and that I haven't backed that up, therefore my issue should be ignore.
2. That I have not clarified why I have an issue with Farside but not Sleepy - when I have said both are doing the same thing.

Basically both of those claims are straight up straw men and/or lies. I have never said #1, and in fact have specifically not said it multiple times. I also *have* discussed #2 (again, multiple times I think). I am frustrated that Farside is demanding I defend and support things I have NEVER SAID and then, in the same wave, trying to suggest that my reads should be ignored because I can't defend things I never said.

Here's my rebuttal to *ALL* the points she is claiming I need to somehow show that Pops is town via meta;

I also note you're trying to frame me into a false debate. I never said his actions justified a town case. I do think they justify a playstyle case,a nd I also could *easily* show you town playing poorly and not scumhunting. Is that really a shocking idea to you, like you've never seen it before? That sounds insane if true.

Farside should be well aware that it is not my stance that Pops = town via meta - but is choosing to still try to force me to defend those statements.
I cannot make my stance any clearer than the above - and I said that in a response to Farside.
Farside apparently doesn't care and keeps trying to argue nonsense with me while suggesting people should ignore my thoughts.


Here's my rebuttal to #2

Even Sleepy the tunnel king actually feels comfortable admitting that he scum reads both - as well he should since they've done the same stuff. But Farside acts surprised I even have that conclusion - while still sticking to her guns that it is Pops, not IAI, who looks scummy...for reasons...

That doesn't make you nervy about her?

It makes me nervy as hell - what have you figured out from trying to understand her?

I have noted multiple times that I found Sleepy's reactions more towninsh, and Farside's more strange and agenda motivated, and have been noting this belief for some time - yet Farside can't figure out why I would possibly vote her.

I am content with my vote.
I would be more content if we spun all our votes onto Farside.
I am pretty sure this answers all the raised issues and points Farside made of me - and my basic answer is 'Farside is not reading and/or lying'.

[Squirrel Girl]

I have more townreads than scumreads this game. It happens sometimes. IAI is my biggest one, because he has been too willing to lynch a variety of different people (except for the townwagons he bragged about). Since IAI is already the counterwagon to me there's not much to say, Cyberbob makes the case better than I do.

A variety of different people?

IAI
Farside
Sleepykrew
Singer
Beck
RC
Dessew
Goofydood
Pops
Cyberbob

How does this list he made say that?

And look at this one, it's more misrep.

Pops is saying IAI wishes to lynch a variety of people.
Farside quotes IAI making a town to scum list - and suggests that disproves the previous statement.

It doesn't - it doesn't actually say anything. Like, where on that town to scum list is the lynch line? Clearly IAI wouldn't vote themselves, and the Farside position makes sense to my current theories, but after that? Even if, say, the 'willing to lynch' line was drawn at RC down or something, that's still a massive pile of people he'd be willing to lynch and it proves Pop's point fine. If, however, IAI had said he'd only be willing to lynch the bottom two it could show that Pops is wrong/lying.

But it doesn't do any of that - it's information that tells us nothing about IAI's thoughts as concerns what Pops is claiming.
But Farside is trying to use it to disprove and discredit Pops.
This is scum thinking.

[Squirrel Girl]

I haven't really read SG at all, but I have no intentions on creating a new wagon even if I didn't like the things she had to say.

Wait, so you're not even paying attention to what I'm doing?
Stop that!

[Squirrel Girl]

I prefer to think of myself as an unpredictable whirlwind of awesome.

[Squirrel Girl]

No issue with my response to you?

[Squirrel Girl]

1. Okay...that still doesn't prove they are scum. Basically you are arguing that he is a poor player, and suggesting we should lynch hi due to that - but you're claiming it proves he's scum in the same breath.
2. I have done anything but ignore meta - half of our conversation has been about meta.

I'm not sure which statement is my 'second statement' here. I'm going to presume it's #2. I will quote you saying that now;

Earlier she stated my case was like skrew's. So why is skrew's case and point fine but mine is scummy?

If you meant any other comment of mine please clarify which one - and I'll prove that whatever I said is also true.
I don't expect you to do so, because staying vague is your only defense at this point.

[Squirrel Girl]

By the way I phone post and was pissed that pops gets to lurk another day because of what comes down to one fucking post made by iai.

Eat shit and die!!!!

[Squirrel Girl]

You brought up the fucking meta
YOU!
I made a huge fucking case that stated that his fucking cases suck shit and that he unvoted a fucking player and push jack fucking shit today as far as scum.
Why is that not good enough for you.

I explicitly explained and showed examples of why "that wasn't good enough for me"
I have re-quoted a comment I made (and basically just repeated it again above) that I felt your meta, at best, showed a playstyle case, rather than a scum case - and didn't support his actions here as te actions of Pops scum, but rather the actions of Pops player.

What about my stance is confusing you?

[Squirrel Girl]

You brought up the fucking meta
YOU!
I made a huge fucking case that stated that his fucking cases suck shit and that he unvoted a fucking player and push jack fucking shit today as far as scum.
Why is that not good enough for you.

I explicitly explained and showed examples of why "that wasn't good enough for me"
I have re-quoted a comment I made (and basically just repeated it again above) that I felt your meta, at best, showed a playstyle case, rather than a scum case - and didn't support his actions here as te actions of Pops scum, but rather the actions of Pops player.

What about my stance is confusing you?

You did not show how it represents his town play based on meta

We're talking at cross purposes here - what have I said that makes you think I am arguing it proves he is town?
I am arguing that it is a null tell - and has no clear alignment showing properties.

[Squirrel Girl]

That doesn't awnser the question.
I showed 2 scum game where he made either subpar cases or wordy and showed more open thought as town.
Why is it null?

I think it does answer the question when you're asking me to defend something I didn't say - I can't really answer the question any other way.
You did show two scum games, I would also note that I found his interactions in one of the linked scum games you provided to be aggressive and very scumhunting focused - I described this. i also pointed out other actions that didn't seem to marry over well as far as your read,a nd also pointed out an issue with one of the games you used and the conclusion you drew from it, because it was a different sort of lynch situation. I also noted that one game you were citing for info of how he handled lynches he wasn't lynched, but night killed in, suggesting a premeditated false premise attempt from you.
I think it is null because you failed to properly connect a given play to either a scum or town game systematic history,a nd I was able to show multiple exceptions to both - that is the definition of showing it is null.

[Squirrel Girl]

I'm happy now. We did do well today.
@Squirel: are you scumreading farside now? (I'm a bit lost, tbh.) If so, then what is your read on pops and how strong is it? (Or not just "if so", it might be not intersting, though.)

I've been scumreading Farside for a long while and also voted Farside and encouraged botht he Pops and IAI wagon to go away in favor of a Farside lynch today.
My current read on Pops is "meh" really. I wasn't particularly against nor for his lynch, though I did find the case on him more one of complaining about playstyle rather than citing him for scumminess. I actually had the same attitude about the IAI case - I pointed out that I chose to vote IAI more due to my issues with Farside than particular belief in the case.

I was in the game you didn't like where he was lynched.
I misspoke about him being lynched the other game.
I also pointed to third scum game you said nothing about.
And the game was lynched day 1 he still had reads and they were not survivlistic

Your first two points I'll agree with the first and shrug and go 'well, that's your safest answer' to the second, but it's certainly a possibility for what went down, I'll agree.
Your third point, I think i probably mentioned that game when I described how you had linked a game where I saw agreement in your description of the scum meta you were selling on him, but then noted that the other disabused me of that belief.
I'll agree he had non-survivalistic reads in that game, I just disagree that he always does that as town, and will also note in that game he was pretty much an early lynch choice and had nothing else to do but express some reads - I would also note it was Day 1, and in this game Day 1 he had reads. I also saw a scum game of his where he had lots of clear reads over multiple days. I also saw a town game with the same. I also saw a town game with rather poor reads. I'm standing by my opinion that I don't think the meta supports what you're saying it supports, and will also re-state my issue with how you didn't have this meta evidence, were asked about it, then found stuff that supported your stance...as long as you don't look at it much.

I basically think you faked the meta research and just grabbed things and claimed they backed your call.

[Squirrel Girl]

I notice this does say what you found of his town games that makes shitty case making null.

I'm guessing you mean 'doesn't'?
I can show you games of his with him as town making poor cases, and can show you games that he was scum where I think he was making fine cases (though at least one of those I know we disagree on because you claimed it showed the opposite).

[Squirrel Girl]

Holy cats girl, I am barely following any of this.

[Squirrel Girl]

I think I extracted the main points;

So you will let pops lurk and make no cases and continue to call it null, while people pushing for the lynch is scum?

This is ridiculous and has no bearing on anything I've said.

Also you asked for meta, because you disagreed, them asked for no meta on iai is highly sudpect

Please point out the point raised about IAI that was based on playstyle and I'll agree that I dropped the ball.
The issue raised there was basically the lie. I also didn't question the meta of the lie issue as applied to Pops.
Your hypocrisy complaint here is pretty empty.

Also why aren't you linking the games your citing as evidence against me?

I have linked some and have not linked others - are you coming out and saying those games don't exist and your meta check was deep enough to know that they don't?
If you agree to that I'll link all of them.
If not, I don't see why I need to post games to show your meta check was shallow, because you're already aware of it.

[Squirrel Girl]

[Squirrel Girl]

You pushed and use the word push laughably a vote on me and calls pops null and found both cases weak.
Where do you say you'll vote for pops if he continues his shit playing ways?

I don't think I did and I don't think i ever told you I did.
Why do I never feel like we're art of the same conversation?

You stated both cases where the same. How is it not both a playstyle thing?

Because the cases are based on the lying - I said as much a couple of times.

I saw one link you made.
If there was more please tell me where. Because the one link showed pops as active town pissed a lurkers, which makes no sense for him to do as town if he hates it so.

I note you're not taking me up on the meta challenge.
That said, you're now saying that he hates lurkers and never lurks as town?

As to your bold question - I would say a few times as town and a few times not doing it as scum brings into question the validity of suggesting it is a valid scumtell - I have said this before.

[Squirrel Girl]

Where is pops defensive flailing?

Well, pretty much every post he made since I replaced in where he was basically complaining about his persecutors.

In short squirel, pops is not scum hunting.

Yeah, and he seems to lack logic. I agree he's not going to be a bad dark stabbing lynch.

You agreed with my point at first, what happened?

Note that I call it a 'dark stabbing lynch'.
As in 'A stab in the dark'.
As in - http://www.idiomeanings.com/idioms/take ... -the-dark/

Remember when you were saying I was calling him town and I said I wasn't?
This is further proof of that.

Says both cases are mirror, meaning personality??

Stop asking things twice when I still haven't had time to respond to the first one - it's making it hard to keep up with the constant barrage and making me doubt that you're as interested in talking to me as in talking at me.

[Squirrel Girl]

So my statement about allowing pops to continue his play gets a pass is accurate then.
Why?

There is a difference in me being okay with the quality of the play and me thinking the play is scummy.

So pops lie was okay? My case was never about a lie it's about not having reads or voting for anyone or pushing a case.
I still don't see why you think he should get to continue his shit play.

Quote me EVER saying Pops lie was okay and I'll bother to try to defend the statement.

Hi lie much. I asked you were you posted more then one link game. You implied more then one

Okay.

No I didn't say that. I asked why soneone that complains about lurkers as town would lurk.

I don't know, that is a question to address to him, I can only offer my opinion on the situation - not defend the playstyle. You already have me on record as not being particularly supportive of his playstyle, so I don't know why you think i consdier it the best thing ever and am obligated to defend it as such. I don't find his play consistant even in games I know for a fact he was town in, so I'm not going to try to justify it here.

Where the fuck is my response to the question I've asked 3 time and bolded the 3rd time?!?!?!

WHERE THE FUCK IS YOUR ABILITY TO READ YOU JERK!

As to your bold question - I would say a few times as town and a few times not doing it as scum brings into question the validity of suggesting it is a valid scumtell - I have said this before

.

[Squirrel Girl]

There is no [giantflashingletters]Why is this player just trying to yell at me and not give one whit about my answers[/giantflashingletters] code, is there?

[Squirrel Girl]

I don't see it as personal, but that shouldn't surprise anyone as I voted with you. Has anyone played with Squirrel before? Does she typically defend scum buddies? It seems as though Pops tried to distance a little, keeping Beck on the scum list but not explaining it much, then Squirrel leaps in and starts to defend so hard that he lurks possibly in an attempt to not acknowledge the defense and ruin his attempts to distance.

Just a few thoughts before lock.

What lock? Don't we still have 24 hours or so to get a lynch?

And my meta with scumbuddies is defense of them - I am not really a busser. You could find that info really easily.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Goofy - I didn't realize we were already hammered. Are you intentionally not offering any opinions about what went down than? Your posting has been quite empty since the hammer, why is that?

You have me one link as town and that was it squirel.
Where are the rest of the times pops did it as town?

And let's say lurking it's helpful how is nothing as far as scum reads mean it something at all?

As I said - I'd provide them if you wanted to claim that your meta research was good enough to believe they don't exist.
Otherwise you're admitting that you haven't done any real meta research - in which case you should be aware that there is a lot of stuff out there you didn't bother to consider, and at that point I'm not sure why you're so focused on batting at my conclusions.

Which are you claiming?

I hope my last two posts will amuse Squirrely.

They're okay. Though I will note I am not particularly advertising my main because this alt is intentionally being played in a totally different way and my goal was to establish this playstyle enough prior to allowing my main to switch over without the awkward inbetween time first.

But I've slip revealed a handful of times - I just am trying not to advertise it. I would prefer you react to me as this playstyle, rather than hanging the old weights on my neck.

@Squirrel: interesting. Farside's been pushing pops for quite a long time. If they're both scum, it's the most brutal and pointless bussing I've ever heard of (aside from dayvigging a buddy who's not been pressured at all and other nonsense.) So my conclusion, or more like the natural conclusion imo is that those two cannot be buddies. Any opinion on this?

I would agree that Farside and Pops are unlikely to be same alignment in an inverse way from the way Farside and IAI are not. Yes.
I'm not sure where you're going with this though.

[Squirrel Girl]

That is part of the point. Rep is an issue that weighs on you.

[Squirrel Girl]

Yeah, I was actually almost hoping for an early IAI push from Farside to explain the craziness.
I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that the result was 'went nowhere' or something akin. Maybe a roleblock I suppose :shrug:.

Eh, sure;

Vote: Pops

[Squirrel Girl]

Though I just broke my word to IAI.
Sowwee!

[Squirrel Girl]

I suppose that makes sense. My main thrust was that there wasn't likely a 'tracked someone to someone else' result in her hand.

[Squirrel Girl]

Squirrely why are you voting pops?

Because Farside was killed and Pops was, by lightyears, who she would have been pushing today.

That said.

Unvote" Pops

@Dessew - I'll admit I'm a little slow, but when did we confirm a roleblocker in the setup?

[Squirrel Girl]

Unvote: Pops

even.

[Squirrel Girl]

let's look at the setup, what we know.
There are 12 players. Two neighbours, one bodyguard (I believe RC's claim), one vigilante and one tracker, which is just a nerfed cop, actually, and there's a roleblocker on the other side.

This is really what I'm asking about.
Who confirmed a roleblocker and when? Was it RC?

[Squirrel Girl]

Why do you think farside was killed and not one of the other pops-pushers (aka me)?

I would presume because scum found you less intimidating or thought you less able to push the wagon through, or found your other reads slightly less scary. Or found her push to be more strident (I did).
Heck, maybe they flipped a coin. I dunno.
Doesn't change who her top suspect was.

[Squirrel Girl]

As has been pointed out already, I did attempt to protect reinoe. I don't know what happened, but presumably I was roleblocked.

@Dessew - nevermind!

Vote: Pops

[Squirrel Girl]

Because yesterday I had two pre-built competing wagons and a short period until deadline.

[Squirrel Girl]

That didn't stop you from temporarily pushing farside.

You are correct, but I'm not sure I understand the issue.

2. Yes, I would argue that Squirrel Girl's vote on IAI was pretty pivotal in his getting lynched instead of pops. It was kind of gross at the time and made even more so when he flipped town.

That sounds like your case on me is predicated on Pops being scum.
I'm willing to have you sheep me whenever.
I figure it's win/win for me - because either I'll get a scum lynched, or you'll have to drop a really nonsensical case.

[Squirrel Girl]

I agree that would not be an acceptable excuse. But that isn't what I said, I said;

Because yesterday I had two pre-built competing wagons and a short period until deadline.

You said I said;

"IAI and pops were the only viable lynches at the time."

Those are not the same things. I was actually expressing gratitude for the two pre-built competing wagons, and though I personally pinged to Farisde worse than any of my other reads, and wanted that known, I was also fairly clear that I didn't town read either of the two competing wagons and was content enough to pick between them. Now I have a viable scum issue with one of the aforementioned competing wagons that is supported by evidence of the kill. To my mind my reasoning makes perfect sense and isn't an excuse for anything. Where am I losing you on that path?

[Squirrel Girl]

Maybe I should have pushed her more, but I certainly never expressed that I town read her, nor does the lack of my push somehow suggest I don't use that as a means to assess scumminess - which is the only way this is a problem unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Basically you're pointing out that yesterday, on a replace in, and with two strong wagons, and short time in the day, that I didn't functional showcase every thought I had nor did I address my read on every player. I will agree that this is true, but I don't think it's actually alignment indicative nor does it invalidate my push today.

[Squirrel Girl]

1. That's not at all what I was even implying? I'm saying that your vote was independently bad and that with two competing wagons (pops already at L-1), your vote swung the odds. If you really had scum reads on both of them why not just hammer?

2. Lol@voting the person I was voting for yesterday=sheeping you.

3. Nonsensical? Case? You're trying to discredit something that's not even there. Ok definitely not building a case against you, but calling you scummy certainly isn't nonsensical.

Ok...I'm even more confident that you two have to be scum together...I just don't know who the third would be at this point... Aren't we missing people?

So your case is that I am his scumbuddy, willing to desperately defend him yesterday in order to bus him today. Yes, I think that's nonsensical.

Also, I clearly expressed that my decision yesterday was based on my Farside read - I even repeated it for someone (I think IAI). I can quote it for you if you like.

[Squirrel Girl]

Maybe I should have pushed her more, but I certainly never expressed that I town read her, nor does the lack of my push somehow suggest I don't use that as a means to assess scumminess - which is the only way this is a problem unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Is "her" singer? I'm going to assume it is. I don't remember you pushing singer at all?
The fact that you didn't use "who was the kill suspecting" yesterday, despite it being your entire case today (right? I seem to recall you thinking both IAI and pops were null) makes me think that you don't genuinely believe that tactic works.

Basically you're pointing out that yesterday, on a replace in, and with two strong wagons, and short time in the day, that I didn't functional showcase every thought I had nor did I address my read on every player. I will agree that this is true, but I don't think it's actually alignment indicative nor does it invalidate my push today.

Why are you hyperbolizing what I'm saying? You had the time to push someone besides one of the two strong wagons; that means you had the time to push singer since that's who reinoe had suspected. But you chose not to.

Can you show me a quote where you expressed any read besides null on pops before today?

No quote explicitly, however I on multiple occasions noted willingness to go for his lynch. A simple glance at any of my town games would show I never do that for anyone I am town reading - and tend to be pretty aggressive in defense thereof. Note that I took pains to claim my town reads. I do this in basically all my games, and my meaning is clear 'these I shall not lynch'. I called him null, but also said it was a fine lynch, and my opposition for it directly stemmed from my opinion about how Farside approached it.

I agree that I didn't push Singer, I said as much.

It is not my entire case, but it is certainly a component of it. I have noted before that I don't find his playstyle very impressive nor his scumhunting present and agreed that was an issue.

I am not hyperbolizing anything - you're claiming that because I didn't use a read yesterday (near day end and with wagons in place) it proves it is bizarre that I am using it now (near day start and with no wagons in place) and yet can't seem to understand that the different situations of the game would affect the validity of the read, nor how flips and other information might adjust how I'm taking in the info or how I would apply it. You're applying a black/white method to my scumhunting that I don't think holds water unless you think I'm very robotic in how I get my reads - and I don't think I should come across that way at all and am annoyed at needing to defend that I don't scumhunt via absolutes held in isolation from other info - I would tend to suggest that you look at any of my town games and see if I come off that sort of robotic to you. I know I won't, and I feel that does easily qualify as my entire defense here. Stop telling me how I think and demanding I defend your presumption.

[Squirrel Girl]

I don't get scurred at night.

[Squirrel Girl]

Woot woot!

Vote: Cyberbob

[Squirrel Girl]

Lets hit the person who ensured the second mislynch and is also part of Farside's final scum team.

Because my scum plan was to come in, defend my scumbuddy super hard on one day, and then immediately bus them the next day invalidating what I fought for all th eprevious day?
I don't think that actually makes sense.
Can you explain how my defense of pops has any sort of scum plan to it? Like, what was my end goal considering my other actions?

Don't you think it's a little late in the piece to be making unjustified votes and forcing people to pull your reasons out of you?

Nah.
Plus I think the reasoning for you is pretty apparent. If anyone needs to hear it they can ask.

guess who breaks the momentum for a CD wagon that he wasn't voting? pops in 893. Once pops joined Drew in voting me, farside, IAI and Cyberbob followed in quick unison, effectively killing the CD wagon for the rest of the day. As far as I know, CD is the only living player that was brought to L-1 and had his wagon fall apart. And the person that orchestrated that was pops for the most part (farside had her hand in it, too, but she wouldn't have jumped if pops didn't do so first).

That is a little weird, especially since of the unflipped movers there we have two confirmed town.
The thing is I can't help but note that Cyber is there too.

How do you explain Singer's move on Pops though? You call Cyber's 'organic' or whatever, but Singer looked pretty focused to me. i think she was literally the first person (maybe it was Farside though) who basically whined that I was defending Pops. That seems like a pretty focused town tunnel rather than a bus, no?

[Squirrel Girl]

Scum team needed to kill far at night because she was correct, that made pops' lynch an inevitability, so a fast bus would definitely not be out of the question. Today you get to say you started the wagon on a scum, but that's only because you noticed the game was open before me.

Okay, so the scum team needed to kill Farside...I still don't see why that meant I had to hard defend my buddy like crazy, and then happily bus him immediately. I didn't even say I started or didn't start the wagon, that's immaterial, but the issue is - why would I go from hard defend to hard bus if I was actually of a mind to hard defend my buddy. Wouldn't I just keep hard defending (especially at a point where it was unclear whether he was even the lynch or not)? Think this through, your case doesn't make sense. I'll agree I ended up defending scum, but I *don't* think it actually shows me as scum, I think it just shows me as wrong, and that's a big difference.

[Squirrel Girl]

I can't even tell you if I'd be the kind of person to bus or not because I haven't been scum in so long.

That sounds like crazy talk. I don't think I've ever even voted a scum buddy as scum - but I knew even before I was scum that I thought that was the right play. Are you really saying you couldn't even tell me how you'd react to a scum buddy in trouble?

[Squirrel Girl]

It depends on what kind of trouble? I could make up a scenario for you if you'd like...

How about a scenario of two competing wagons, one your scumbuddy and one town?
This feels like a really weird conversation still, why are you making this so hard? I mean, do you bus or don't you? Even if you have to delve into the ancient past - why not just discuss your method from there, or provide links or something? I don't feel like it's a complicated question regardless of whether you've been scum recently or not.

[Squirrel Girl]

I feel like I;m asking 'do you like Thai food' and your answer is 'I dunno, i haven't eaten it in a few months'.
Does that make sense to you?
It doesn't to me.

[Squirrel Girl]

You may not like the case, but you can't deny it makes sense.

Well, actually that makes a lot more sense than I thought it did. That said, I still don't like it - at the point I came into the game, functionally I was choosing between those two lynches no matter what. SO regardless of my alignment I had a 50% chance to do what you're saying was the optimal scum play. That's just coin flip to cast me as scum - is there anything else that paints me as scum, or are you happy with a coin flip case?

Also, considering your case on me, what's your take on Cyberbob?

@Singer - are you intentionally ignoring my question or did you just miss it?

SG, as a replacement, do you think you'd have come in and hammered pops for the credit if you were his buddy? Why or why not? Were you aware that I had the intention to hammer pops around the time you joined the game?

I was aware that a couple of people were expressing desire to vote either wagon - it's one of the reasons I tunneled in on Farside because she was one of the only ones who was being active who seemed to be unaware the cases were identical.

As far as bussing for cred? Nah, I doubt it. I don't think I've ever bussed a scum buddy ever. I would challenge anyone to find me doing so. I'm actually not even sure if I've ever voted a scumbuddy, though probably I have in RVS or something somewhere - but I think it's anti-scum to bus. It's not a good winning strategy, scum need to stick together in the current meta.

I'm with Bob on this one. This is a serious vote on a serious day, SG. You need to give us more than you have.

My issue is his votes and stances and his relations to the players nightkilled. There was never a Cyberbob supported killed that I can find, and he did oppose the wagon on scum and did so for a lengthy period of time to the point of not even discussing anything else, and he also was the one who "because he would be busy" allowed yesterday to be cut short by putting Pops in self-hammer range. I think that looks like a pretty obvious buddy, why don't you?

Honestly, I didn't much care for singer's move to pops on D2. The main reason being her wishy-washiness as she came into the game. In 1372 she says she's going to vote IAI. In 1375, she reaffirms that she's going to vote IAI and explains this to farside. After her and farside go at each other a bit (in fairness to singer, she claimed to have a farside townread early on), she recants in 1407, essentially saying she "mixed the names up", and slowly starts to pivot toward pops.

I've got to be honest with you, that sounds sorta screwy if she was scum ad her goal was to...what, manage a buddy bus?
I don't see the scum motivation there really.

@Dessew - no, if you look at the point in the day after I decided Farside was scum and moved to IAI then my defense of Pops becomes pretty explicit insomuch as I actively oppose the one lynch and favor the other. If that's not defense I don't know what is.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Singer - also, do you think Cyber is town? I don't. If you have doubts about me, what are your reads on him?

[Squirrel Girl]

My bad, I lost a couple posts there somehow.

Could you look again on Cyber's stuff. Like, take how he talked about caring about RC's protect choice yesterday, even though he has no opinion on it today despite hinting that he might,a nd even though, with a claimed blocker, it literally probably doesn't matter what RC does from here to eternity if he's town. That's scum setting up stuff, not town hunting and thinking.

[Squirrel Girl]

It's always at least somewhat relevant who he claims to have protected even if he does have a roleblocker riding his coattails.

I spent more time commenting on it yesterday because it was a much bigger point of contention than it has been so far today.

And of course the lynch today is considerably less obvious than pops was yesterday so I'm spending more time and energy thinking about that today.

These sequential sentences are very contradictory to me...

If the lynch isn't as obvious as yesterday, then why did you vote already (in within your first few posts)...

I was going to say something, but have to admit that a +1 to the above pretty much works for what I was going to say.

[Squirrel Girl]

Well, mostly to the contradictory part - I am more indifferent on the vote timing.
Okay, I'll explain anyway - basically you're saying you brought it up yesterday because it was more contentious than it has been today...but today you didn't even so much as raise a burp of commentary on it and *also* didn't bring up the stuff from yesterday wherein you noted that you had issue with it and expressed desire to talk it over later. Instead you're voting someone else entirely.
I don't think any of that flows from a basis of you actually caring about the discussion of the protects.

[Squirrel Girl]

I think I need other voices in here, this isn't very helpful to me.

[Squirrel Girl]

I would say we're maintaining the regular posting habits of all th ecurrent living players except that you're being more active than you have the last two phases. But everyone else feels about the same, it's just a few of the more active voices are kinda dead now.

How come you were badgering me for a case on you - but as soon as someone who wasn't you asked, and I provided it, you didn't even comment on it?
Am I allowed to call that a scumtell and empty scumhunting?
Because I'd like to.
Your total response to it was kind of vaguely saying that you'd meant to do stuff about the protects but had forgotten to. You were just badgering me to try to diminish my credibility as soon as you saw an empty weakness, but didn't actually care about discussing with me where I had gone right or wrong in assessing your slot. I would like to add that to my case on you as well, as further evidence of how empty your scumhunting is. You're just going through motions and hoping no one bothers to pay attention to the flow as long as individual posts generically look like something town would say.

[Squirrel Girl]

Honestly even that last post is empty.

"Grrrr, peeps ain't postin'...must mean people are lurking, that's scummy, y'know? But it's not me, I'm not lurking, as you can see I'm here growling about the lurking, harumph!"

Even though, everyone who is alive is well within the posting habits they have shown for literally every day of the game since I joined. It's not like anyone went from a dynaball of activity to not posting. And if someone did they must have done it weeks ago and you should have called them on it then. It's just an empty "this is what town would/should say" comment. You're not even trying to get a conversation going, you're just generically tossing mud and keeping your head low. I am struggling to find the words to make everyone else see it, because you need rope!

[Squirrel Girl]

@Singer - the point about Cyber is that he's being so lazy. Theoretically town should be thinking today is potentially mylo unless it really was a 2 scum team...and at that point we need to lynch a claimed PR today or something. But I'm willing to wager 3 scum as balancewise that makes sense, so there should be two left. Cyber isn't following up on claimed issues with RC. He isn't following up on my case (indeed, he is even kind of sighing theatrically and going 'aw geez, can't you just vote Singer and stop being silly?') and he didn't even do any scumhunting today, instead he waited for the first solid case presented (by a player he vaguely intimated he's still scumhunting) and then instant sheeped it and stopped discussing anything besides trying to shout you down and dismiss my position.

That is what you need to see, does it make sense now? Just ask yourself, what town would shut down communication like he has? Cyber is basically like 'full steam ahead, scum found, no other discussion or investigation needed'.

He isn't worried about tomorrow because he knows if he gets this lynch than tomorrow is probably meaningless. That's why he's doing what he's doing.
Basically at that point my only prayer is he at least shoots me for being right so I don't have to be endgamed in shame.

[Squirrel Girl]

Gotta dodge the prod, nothing I've seen has changed my mind on Squirrel, I wouldn't mind lynching CD's spot, I just feel more strongly about Squirrel.

Talk to me you joik!

the cases were identical.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

The comment feels very straightforward - I'm not sure how to make it simpler. "The list of accusations were basically mirrored"? Does that make more sense? Taalk me through the confusion and I'll clear it up more.

There was never a Cyberbob supported killed that I can find

Again, I'm kind of confused as to what this means. You mean all the players killed were suspicious of Cyberbob?

I mean none were allies.

It's quite clear what the motivation is... IAI was town and pops was scum. singer came into this game and thought she could join the IAI wagon without getting herself into the spotlight for doing so. farside immediately started throwing accusations her way and she thought it wasn't worth the trouble to fight for an IAI lynch when she could get in good graces with her townread farside and get credit for bussing a lame goon. pops' self-vote yesterday was especially good evidence as to the fact that pops was onboard with using himself as bait for his scumbuddies to get credit off of.

Maybe. Feels paranoid on your part though.

This implies that you think SG is town then, yeah? I'll sympathize with you in that I'm having a difficult time coming up with partnerships, and I think I agree with you that one of Dessew/Goofy is probably scum here and that's a straight toss up for me right now.

I think a scum neighbor makes a lot of sense, personally, looking at the setup. It would also qualify his hedging today.

[Squirrel Girl]

Um...I am quote wall fail!

All the little comments inside the big wall are me.

[Squirrel Girl]

I did do that, but I also changed my tune on him later as I increased the Farside read and suggested that was a mislynch he was pushing for.
I'm not sure how it matters much either way, so if it allows you to comment on other things feel free to claim I did either.

[Squirrel Girl]

Same difference in the end.

Would you like to talk to me about the case yet?
Or talk to me about my case on Cyber?

Why are you just like a will-o-wisp right now, please stop that.

[Squirrel Girl]

As far as I can tell Goofy isn't even reading the game, I have no idea how to read that.

[Squirrel Girl]

Though actually 2087 suggests he is.
So I guess he's just choosing to ignore me trying to talk to him. I now hate you, Goofy.

[Squirrel Girl]

Tbh, I'm quite suprised that I'm not really pushed because of my role.

If it makes you feel better I have indicated you're my top thought for scumbuddy with Cyberbob - I do aim to make everyone feel included

[Squirrel Girl]

If I had to lay odds I'd guess two, just off the PR analysis.

[Squirrel Girl]

It's also why I think Dessew makes sense as the final, and why I'd want to make him the final on the off chance I'm wrong in that supposition. But, yeah.

[Squirrel Girl]

Well Dessew being the probable other scum is one thing you and I agree on.

But on a more serious note - yeah, I'm not surprised that your secondary read is him.

[Squirrel Girl]

Ever have that moment where you're not sure if you want to laugh, scream, or cry?
I just had that.

How is the case on Singer still even a thing? She's like the only player who is trying to play the game. Scum are WAY too happy about this.

[Squirrel Girl]

I don't even get why you're being so defeatist. You're not supposed to roll over and hand wagons away.
On the flip side your biggest fear seems to be that we're currently at 5/1 which would be *awesome* if true. If we're at 4/2 then I think Cyber/Dessew makes a whole lot of sense if you're at a loss for theory teams.
And, yeah, getting your town reads set in your own head is a decent place to be. Every player you can rule out makes your other reads more accurate.

[Squirrel Girl]

I thought you might say that. I'd be quite happy to do you a deal and vote him together today.

Singer is playing the emotion card on you really hard though.

Color me interested. You move first.

If you were town you'd know me better than that.

You're saying you don't use emotions as scum and Cyberbob should know this?

[Squirrel Girl]

My brain hurts now, I don't know what this means.

[Squirrel Girl]

Unvote: Cyberbob
Vote: Dessew

It probably means we'll at least bully him into talking more though.
And Cyber can't have backed out once he made that comment and I called him on it.

I just realized bussing isn't as prohibitive for scum as I thought it was today either.
I'm babbling. But this move makes sense.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Singer - you agree with me that Red actually has a pretty weak role, right? Like, in the scope of defensive roles a Bodyguard is amongst the worst, right?

[Squirrel Girl]

I personally think a vote on Pops without trying to claw much attention to the effort is more likely to come from town than scum.

I didn't think you expected to slip it by me, I think you might have hoped I didn't go for it.

What is your response to Singer's call about you and her emotional meta? She dinged you with that and I'm looking for clarification, but I noticed that you never addressed it directly - why is that?

[Squirrel Girl]

Yo answer your 'what-what'.

Generally I feel that when scum decide it is time to bus that they would want to, y'know, get some props for the bus. So they tend to try to claw some of the prestige of the wagon to themselves. Make a case, point out a tell, do something to help make it look like they 'caught' the scum or at least helped in the catch. The lazier the vote, the more likely I feel it is to come from town. So, yes, I agree her vote was lazy - but I'm not sure why I'm supposed to believe that when bussing (where the only prize is towncred) she didn't even look like she cared much and also outsourced the credit.

The bluff comment from you is just meaningless posturing.

The meta comment...it feels a bit dodgy. So you're agreeing that back in some long forgotten day you may have been aware of some meta on her, but that you certainly wash your hands of it in the here and now even if you did? That's weird.

You actually are sort of half right ish about the Dessew thing though: I wasn't expecting you to go for it, I was expecting you to blather on about how much of an obvious bus it supposedly is (which you kind of did) and keep your vote on me anyway.

[Squirrel Girl]

'To answer'
Though maybe I channeled the 'yo' with the 'what-what'.

[Squirrel Girl]

I'm actually way too pleased with that mistype.

[Squirrel Girl]

Ive been ignoring that request because it has a built in false premise that 'gut tells don't count'.
Basically what that's saying is 'a player who doesn't conform to a given playstyle becomes scum'
Which is bull-hooey.

Even looking at her iso I think your issue doesn't hold water. Yeah, sure, she's a player who gets reads more off interaction than off iso analysis. Big deal, I'm the same way, it's not a scumtell it's a playstyle tell, and I am totally on her wavelength that this game is a bear to deal with due to the inactivity and dodginess of the playerbase, because I'm fighting that exact thing - so I am really getting what she's saying and also her frustrations, and even if you don't get them I fail to see how they're active lurk, and even if we want to decide that's scumtell she's hardly alone, as I could easily apply the same issue to...well, basically every other player in this game.

[Squirrel Girl]

This isn't remotely a fair or accurate summary of what I said. That's weird.

I think it was a quite functional summary. You admitted that the knowledge might have existed, but even if it did you weren't bringing it forward with you. That *is* what you said.

[Squirrel Girl]

SG, do you think Bob is bussing? If so, why was he the first to "break the deadlock", as it where?

I literally already gave my thoughts on all of this.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6199051
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6199144

Which explanation isn't enough for you, and what deeper thought are you looking for?

[Squirrel Girl]

That said, I feel good about Goofy's move as far as a 'he is likely town' sort of thing.
Even though he still isn't talking to m

That said, it would be as easy to slide to Dessew as it would be to slide to you.
I suppose maybe he's a theory Dessew buddy desperate to save Dessew and thus hoping to draw Cyber back to Singer...but I'm pretty sure I already ruled out Goofy/Dessew from something or other. I should look at that again. As long as I did, and I'm pretty sure I did, then this move is basically townish, and it's nly scummish if he *is* teamed with Dessew, so even if I can't it only makes sense s a scum move with Dessew/Goofy, so my initial comment still makes sense, yes!

That got really garbled. Short version is, unless Goofy = scum with Dessew than Goofy = town (with a p.s. of - I don't think they work as a pair, ergo...)

@Dessew - my case on you is mostly setup analysis and PoE for possible scumbuddy pairings.
When you show up to tell me how bad of a player I am and how bad of a conclusion/method that is - could you also tell me why you think we're facing only 2 total scum (one of them a goon) in a 12p setup?

[Squirrel Girl]

@Squirrel: Today I woke up late and had to take an emergency dump and was late to work. My wife and 6 month old visited me when they were out so that was a bright point. After work I started playing a game called Clicker Heroes, which you can try at ClickerHeroes.com, it is pretty cool for a clicker game. I then watched by son for a few hours which he mostly slept through so I could click uninterrupted. Then someone said they hated me, and that made me sads.

What else would you like to talk about?

Well, I did ask you about some things as regards your case on me - we could discuss that.
There is also the Dessew case, of which I've offered thoughts, we could go there.
Also, you seem to have Cyber as town and I very much do not, I wouldn't mind hearing how/why you clear him.

Pick any or all of the above and I'd be pretty tickled.

@Dessew - I see a few holes in that logic. However, let's just say I could convince you that there was a three scum team - who would your suspects be for the last two?

[Squirrel Girl]

I was the one who pushed it, and I wasn't around then, so how does that apply? And if anyone who does it isn't town motivated...well, that would be Cyber, who you aren't exactly calling town there. So are you kind of agreeing with me about Cyber being potential scum?

[Squirrel Girl]

Also, SG, I'm coming around to your pivot on Dessew only because of what I said above. I'm still kind of confused about your thoughts in regards to bussing. It looks as though you're recanting your scumCyberbob read though (correct me if I am wrong). If this is the case, can I interest you in voting singer?

Noooooooooooo! You are very wrong. I still think Cyber/Dessew is the most likely pair out there. Frankly I would prefer it if we lynched Cyber first because I think he's the more likely. I actually kind of feel like this is the second time I've had to say that to you, you are too disconnected to bounce ideas off of and it's very frustrating because you're the closest thing we have to obv. town in this game.

[Squirrel Girl]

I would like to point out that Singer just made it a 1 v 1 request between her and Cyberbob.
That is with Red, Cyberbob, and Goofy calling her scum.
And with her and I calling Cyberbob scum.
With Dessew openly saying he'd vote whichever wagon was bigger.

And people think she looks like scum.

[Squirrel Girl]

[Squirrel Girl]

Being aware that the lineup is a you vs. her with Dessew as the likely buddy doesn't actually involve any double standards.
She was also complaining about someone she has fairly consistently been calling town as the kingpin of setting up that situation.
I do think you tried to paint it as scummy. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

[Squirrel Girl]

You *literally* just said you were trying to suggest she had double standards.
That's calling her scum.
I call it 'painting her scummy' because of my read on you and her - but I am not creating anything magically out of thin air there, I am using the evidence and your own words. You're just trying to make me dismissable now because I'm on to you.

[Squirrel Girl]

You *literally* just said you were trying to suggest she had double standards.
That's calling her scum.

Actually it's calling her a person that has double standards.

A quick check-in.
@Squirrel: before you make a comment on one of my posts, read it, please, thank you. I'm slightly leaning towards scum-Bob, but maybe just cause there've been some case attempts on singer's slot that I explicitely dislike.

So you actually think that Singer/Cyber could make sense as a scum pair?

@Squirrel...do you think in any spot of your mind, that you're using confirmation bias and can be wrong about Bob? Honest question.

Theoretically if I was confbiased I wouldn't be able to realize it because I'd be confbiased.
My basic answer to this is 'if Cyber isn't scum, then I think Goofy would have to be - and I don't really see Goofy as scum right now'.
I also don't think Goofy/Dessew makes a lot of sense. Goofy/Cyber...maybe, but not so much the other.
So, yeah, I think Cyber is scum and yes I think that is affecting what I say and see, but I don't think I got blind and came to the conclusion, i think I came to the conclusion and then got focused.

[Squirrel Girl]

You're not even trying to scumhunt right now.
You want me to debate the setup with you.
No.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Red - Cyberbob's whole 'double standard' conversation - weird or not weird? I think it looks weird as all get out in a scum sort of way. He's basically calling her scum for a silly reason, I call him on it, and he re-clarifies to that he's...calling her out as having double standards as a person outside of the scope of alignment.

That is messed up in my opinion.
Am I crazy? Or is Cyberbob? I'd like some feedback on that one from the acorn gallery.

[Squirrel Girl]

Heck, if Dessew wants, he could weigh in on it too if he needs something to discuss, I'm an equal opportunity fretter.

[Squirrel Girl]

Personally I think, yes, you were wrong because no double standard was applied. I said as much at the time.
Whether or not you were right there is still a question as to your implied purpose in what you did - which is what I'm asking Red about because I hope he sees it, agrees with me, and then gets excited about making you dead.

[Squirrel Girl]

Feel free to explain how there was.
I told you why I thought there wasn't and why your push was scummy.

[Squirrel Girl]

She was complaining about finding herself in a situation almost exactly equivalent to the one I'm in. Or were you planning on saying something other than "oh well Bob must be the other scum buddy" tomorrow if we lynch Dessew today?

I agree that she did this.
Where's the double standard though?

Did she claim you couldn't say it?
Did she call you scummy for saying it and then say the same thing?
Did she claim her situation was unique and that you were not in that situation?
or
Did she claim that the two of you should go 1 v 1? (which is what I think she did...and I'm not sure how that's a double standard - so if you agree with me that's what you need to explain)

[Squirrel Girl]

You're just buzzwording.

[Squirrel Girl]

I am content with your answers and think anyone who looks at them can draw their own conclusion.

[Squirrel Girl]

I did some direct threatening earlier - go back and read that if you need to get some terror chills.

[Squirrel Girl]

Vote: Cyberbob

Back to L-2 for you.

[Squirrel Girl]

Sounds like frustrated town. singer has not really followed up on the points she made against Bob that sounded good to me, and I'm not going to do the work for y'all. Bob's points against singer were succinct and easy to understand. These ramshackle, last minute "does Bob talking about double standards seem scummy" come across as desperate and not tied down with anything concrete that has happened over the course of this game. pops is the key to this game, SG, and I think you're missing that.

And I think you're overlooking flash tells for the sake of building conspiracy tells.
KISS on this one, I think. He's acting screwy - why is it screwy? This will tell us things.

[Squirrel Girl]

Keep it simple stupid.

You're making a complicated case and ignoring an easy one. Just because one is less clever doesn't prove it wrong nor desperate.

[Squirrel Girl]

Except that we'll still be debating this tomorrow so why not today?

[Squirrel Girl]

I would still like to point out that all Cyber is doing is sitting on the sidelines making noise and not actually scumhunting nor advancing a case.
People should vote him.
He is practically laughing about how this day is going.

[Squirrel Girl]

Basically your argument for why this is a 2 scum setup is; if half the players die and town controls 4 of those deaths then it is unreasonable to have the game end in a scum victory if no scum have died.
And - out of a group of 4 unclaimed players I'm basing my speculation on the idea that one is scum and 3 are VT with thin reasoning behind it.

I don't really agree with either point.
So I don't agree with your conclusion.

That said, considering the way you guys went, I do agree that you're not the RBer.
Which is why I'm voting Cyber right now.

[Squirrel Girl]

Wow.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Krew - Too many town saw you as town also though - scum kill the heck out of those. Also, I think Red saw you as a possible threat to him if I recall correctly.

PEdit - I am fine with the QT being released, though will back any of the scum if they don't wish it.

[Squirrel Girl]

Wow, I was drinking some raspberry tea when I read that and I had to dry off my laptop before it got ruined.

Wheeeeee!

[Squirrel Girl]

I mostly just went for the defense for reasons as cited by...singer(?) the next day.
With a toss up between the two, you just kind of want to make sure the scum one goes second.

[Squirrel Girl]

We still lurvs you!

[Squirrel Girl]

Also, i mean, basically every town player was pretty snookered and directionless that last game day. I think all of you suspected me at some point - just never at the same time, and RC was totes skating on the claim.

[Squirrel Girl]

For the record, with a lack of insta win we had become convinced Goofy was some type of PR. Hence the Dessew shot as probably not likely to be protected.

[Squirrel Girl]

I would have claimed and traded myself for RC in Mylo 100% of the time, assuming the role was protective.

Agreed - I basically said as much in the QT, and also ruled you out as a BP as well.
...frankly I had become fairly sure you were Vengeful

SG, one of the things that made me lose direction is that no one would follow me on you, from the day you saved pops I had a 100% scum on you, just not able to muster what it would take to convince everyone.

I kind of knew that would happen, honestly. Here's actually what I said about you in the discussing of kills on the night before the last day phase;

"I agree about Goofy, but on the flip side I don't think his lurking and non-read offering behavior has left him a lot of stroke. So he may turn against us, but unless there's a leader I don't think it will matter."

Basically you were sitting in the background too much, keeping reads close to your chest, not making a lot of waves. We thought you might be a PR, but I pointed out that you were of almost no threat by yourself, and it would require one of the louder town to agree with you for it to be any issue at all. That's one of a few reasons Sleepy died - he was at least shown to be able to lead compared to the other surviving town players. That then left town functionally leaderless except for a lurky RC and the kind of noisy Squirrel. Pretty much a perfect situation for scum (and that by early into the game day we were debating between two town lynches [one started by RC and the other by me] pretty much showed how that ability to push wagons really handed us the win at that stage).

I think you need to be more of a presence throughout the game if you want to be able to lead wagons. As I noted, a fair shake of players suspected me - you just lacked any bank to build a wagon. I do think the possibility for my lynch was there but you were going to have a massive uphill climb to get the stroke to make it happen.

At least that's how I read the situation.

[Squirrel Girl]

And by that I mean they just let the day waffle on forever when I was the obvious mislynch. I was literally about to vote myself when I remembered that would be a bad idea. >_> It just felt like they could've easily just latched onto either one of us and we wouldn't have been any the wiser and neither would've goofy or Dessew. That's probably the only thing I'm mad about. It was well played as scum but really poor sportsmanship, IMO. <3

Eh. It was safe and solid play.
Sure, it might have been nice if we sped things up - but we would have had to play differently. You might as well argue that town couldn't make up their minds on which scummy player to mislynch to hand scum the win, and that it was bad sportsmanship on your part for making us wait.
Scum's job is to secure a mislynch and look like town doing it - their job is not to make it quick and painless.

[Squirrel Girl]

Maybe you underestimate yourself.

[Squirrel Girl]

I wasn't there for that decision so can't easily say or produce my thoughts on the kill discussion.

[Squirrel Girl]

I would note that the instant a wagon was within L-1 we hammered it.
I don't think you were as easy of a mislynch as you wish to argue.