Mini 1591: PFs Flavorless Normal (Game Over)

[Dessew]

Claim

Witch Hunter

. (3rd party)
I win if there are no players alive having the pronoun "she". Please cooperate. PF can confirm me.

@mod: Can you please confirm my alignment and role?

VOTE: farside22

[Dessew]

Also,

@ Farside. The guys been on the site for 3 years. How is he an eager puppy with a new toy?

He does read like he's on the spectrum though (that's not an insult, BTW, and is an observation based on his posting style - I have a friend who plays on another site who is on the spectrum and posts in a similar way) which means how he presents is going to be different to how we would assume a player would.

This isn't a defence of his poor questioning either; more his interaction.

Also, glad it didn't offend :)

Please stop making posts like this. He's a grown-up man, let him explain himself. :)

[Dessew]

I hoped someone would post before the VC. w/e

[Dessew]

^I could support this wagon.

[Dessew]

Hey, so... I'm still in this game, you know.
Anyway, I was called scum by SK, I'd like to read about it. :)
What else... Reinoe is town, imo, his case on SK

is

over-the-top, true, but SK fisrt posts do tell plenty of people to just lynch him, I mean, SK, you did something dishonest (

you

said it) and you got called out because of it. What else did you expect?
However, SK isn't scum, either, more like leaning town, he just needs to take a few deep breaths, probably.
pops is town, obv, I'm gonna sheep him.
UNVOTE: farside
VOTE: Konowa
I dislike the way Konowa and Bob voted reinoe (RC, why do you like the latter?), and Konowa's unvote was horrible. That 'yup' does imply that he had some kind of knowledge about the game at the time, don't look over it only because it's only three letters. Bob overall gives me scumvibes, his wagon on reinoe, his exchange with RC, eh. It's a tonality thing.
I wouldn't start to speculate about Drew's alignment, partly because he's V/LA atm and he hasn't done much, partly because his posts are newbish, nothing else, imo.
Goofy should just answer

both

questions of SK, they shouldn't be so hard if he's town. (@everyone else: why are you emphasizing only the less relevant question?) Oh, the 'two votes OMG' segment was weird as hell.
About pictures, videos &c. since it seems to be a penis measure contest now: it's fine by me to flood the thread with such, but if you do post something non-text, could you please put a description before/after it about what you wanted to express them, please? Sometimes I'm online from my phone and loading pictures is long and bothersome. Thank you very much.

[Dessew]

Add IAI to the list about people I like.
Should anyone have wondered, Goofy really had not encountered a post with two votes before this game.
Drew's got quite a few finished games, I'll see into this later.

[Dessew]

Why is everyone ignoring my case on Konowa?

I haven't ignored it but I'm not quite sure how you're reading so much into his initial reinoe vote when all he said to go along with it was "Yup." Especially since he admitted later that he hadn't actually read the thread - it would be a really weird thing to lie about, so why would he outright admit to it if he was scum? People jump on early Day 1 bandwagons for all sorts of reasons (including no reason at all).

Goofy is much scummier if you're looking for people to vote that aren't reinoe.

Why is Goofy much scummier? I have him in my townie pile right now.

What? Why? What has he done that is alignment indicative?

[Dessew]

Spoiler: #67

I think his liking of renoi makes little sense as the serious vote was just "fine its you!" because of the lack of reasoning at the time. Unless he means that kind of thing just makes him smile, because it made me smile too.

His response to sleep saying one solution is to serious vote is wrong. It should read "this is obvious" as its one of the usual ways to get out of rvs.

However his logic for voting sleep seems sound, as not participating in rvs doesn't mean you are obligated in ending it, just that you are a fuddy duddy.

In my tiny amount of experience the people who start jerky turn out to be town, but I'll leave my vote on sleep for now until more interactions come.

On a serious note, since they are in the same post, which will be counted, I assume sleeps because it's lower, but it's the first time I've encountered this.

(I know this would be prettier as a multi quote but my phone would explode)

Why is everyone ignoring my case on Konowa?

I haven't ignored it but I'm not quite sure how you're reading so much into his initial reinoe vote when all he said to go along with it was "Yup." Especially since he admitted later that he hadn't actually read the thread - it would be a really weird thing to lie about, so why would he outright admit to it if he was scum? People jump on early Day 1 bandwagons for all sorts of reasons (including no reason at all).

Goofy is much scummier if you're looking for people to vote that aren't reinoe.

Why is Goofy much scummier? I have him in my townie pile right now.

What? Why? What has he done that is alignment indicative?

His 67 felt sincere to me.

Though dodging reads is very scummy, so moved to the null pile as I came across this through my read through:

The end of the game will be here and I still won't have answered it, reads coming tomorrow maybe, bed now.

Not posting because of sleepytime is fine, imo (when I sleep, I don't post, either.) OTOH, he doesn't take any strong stance in #67. It may as well be sincere, but it could come both from town and scum. It's one of the few cases when sincerity is not alignment indicative.

[Dessew]

Add IAI to the list about people I like.
Should anyone have wondered, Goofy really had not encountered a post with two votes before this game.
Drew's got quite a few finished games, I'll see into this later.

Who beside Konowa is on your scum list.

I'm getting the impression reninoe is asking pointless questions in reference to sleepy's pointless questions.

Cyberbob.
IMO, the whole reinoe-SK exchange went out of hand and leads nowhere, TBH. Nonetheless, SK's questions to Goofy are not pointless.
I'd be interested, though, what reinoe and SK think about the wagons on them.

Before I forget again.

Dessew: what was the point of this?

Claim

Witch Hunter

. (3rd party)
I win if there are no players alive having the pronoun "she". Please cooperate. PF can confirm me.

@mod: Can you please confirm my alignment and role?

VOTE: farside22

Gambit?

I just needed some kind of escapism and nostalgia seemed sufficient. We would play this role in every day at maths camps. Also, I could've been called out on it for whatever reason, that'd been fun, compared to the state of matters now, when I've interacted with like three players or so.
BTW, it's not like I don't have this role. PF didn't give it to me, true, but I assumed it for myself. (If I'd drawn scum, I'd have assumed the Bloodthursty modifier, that sounds cool, too.)

[Dessew]

Phoneposting, so just addressing some stuff I can recall.
SK: you said your push on farside hadn't been serious. What on Earth did you expect, not to be called out?
Konowa: if I was damage controlling, I'd be doing a really bad job, I mean, read again, maybe?
Whoever asked why pops is town: their actions show town motivation and no scum motivation. I'll do a post with quotes tomorrow.
Goofy: I've had a very long conversation in my head with many obnoxious players and other people from my life while walking back and forth in the flat (which makes the cat extremally annoyed) and drinking like one and a half litres of water all thanks to your incompetence. Answer the questions. You're withholding information, or at least that's what you claim. Here's what I want you to do: 1. Find some catalogue of BS (a Coelho generator or whatever) and post it labelled as 'answer to SK's RVS question'. 2. Tell us what SK's posts during the RVS told you about his alignment. I need your thoughts from exactly that point of time, use only the posts from that time. I personally honestly mistrust your capabilities of understanding what I mean by the things said above, partly because of my past experiences, but do what you can, please. In the meantime, I might be just oversensitive because I had to explain someone that things imply themselves, but I'm seriously contemplating a PL on you right now. Jsyk.
Drew: I'd like to hear how I'm '... interesting.'

[Dessew]

A case on town-pops with quotes would have ended up quoting all his posts with more than two lines, so here I go with no quotes. That sentence was the title of a spoiler, but I don't even need to spoiler it. Pops is town because he's actively trying to move the game further. His posts are overall collected and they have a purpose. Example: his stance on the reinoe-SK debate. The whole thing became a mere penis measurement competition, imo, I mean the only actual substance that could be sqeezed out of it appeared just recently. (Reinoe, you should really explain how we were supposed to find out whom you're scumreading from those lists.) Instead of this he actively tried to change the conversation to 'a lynch with strong merits'. That's my case: his ISO has plenty of useful town motivation. (The activity thing isn't unconditionally true, though, or at least I don't agree.)

SK: you said your push on farside wasn't for real (i.e. wasn't genuine.) I'm not saying that insincere=scummy, that's not true at all, but many players do think this way, or at least start their cases based on such (see: wagons all around the site based on anti-towniness, stupidness &c.) So you could have expected that you were gonna be called out! Then why on earth did consider reinoe's vote on you so extraordinary. I don't even remember which post I answered originally, I just want you to come out of the tunnel for now if reinoe manages to explain himself.

reinoe: I write it here, again: how was anyone supposed to know that Konowa being in a bracket means a scumread, but the same for the others doesn't?
sidenote: I've played an open with reinoe, he was scum and much more collected than now.

Cyberbob: I'm an Orthodox Konowa Lyncher, I think the Original Yup Case is sufficient. (He hasn't given much more, yet.)

Goofy or Drew, as I cannot really tell them apart:
During the weekend I can always find a good reason not to post, I spent Sunday with my grandmother then I watched the LEN final. Anyway, asking questions doesn't mean not providing content (to be more precise, if there are question marks at the end of each sentence, there can be still statement, regardless.)
I didn't duplicate any question.
Where did I say anything about SK's meta?
That'd have been a very bad gambit, but I have already stated that I had had no actual plan in my head.

Farside, Cooldog, RC and IAI are flying over my head, I'm gonna read them throughly.

[Dessew]

Almost forgot:
Goofy: did you really not post something (effectively not answer a question) because you wanted to avoid pressure? That's just... whoah. I'll think about it.

Cooldog: reinoe's and RedPanda's avatar similar (maybe the same.)

[Dessew]

I'm assuming the last part of your first post was for drew as none of it hit home for me. As for avoiding a question because of pressure, you have completely lost me, when did this happen? I didn't answer why rvs because it was like asking the teacher for a definition when you have a dictionary in your hands.

Des, his reaction read scummy from him trying so hard to find someone to single out quickly, but rather than push that I was horrible scum immediately he went with "just answer the question" which read more like anyone who wanted to get the game rolling fast and have fun. Like I said someone else answered that particular question.

I would like you to explain why you provided nothing but questions with your comment when it was your first one in 24 hours. Did you gather nothing to share since then? Even with my posts during that period you are still on this?

During the weekend I can always find a good reason not to post, I spent Sunday with my grandmother then I watched the LEN final. Anyway, asking questions doesn't mean not providing content (to be more precise, if there are question marks at the end of each sentence, there can be still statement, regardless.)

Please stop pluralizing questions, that is the only one that I know of.

I didn't duplicate any question.

[Dessew]

Oh, geez...
I'll make a post for Goofy later, as he's paying the game only-knowing-posts-quoted-in-the-post game, so whenever I want him address a point, he 'doesn't understand', I have to explain and then he doesn't address it. For a few days I wanted to do violent things to him, but now I'm just apathetic.
Anyway, just to clear it up, I made the pops case because I was asked about him, there's no PoE going on atm. Just don't stretch it. BTW, I doubt it'd make much difference.
Reinoe's overall explanation is sufficient. He's got to improve his communication skills, though. He's just like this guy from my neighbourhood, who cannot reword his sentences, tbh.
I'll ISO RC, probably today, because I didn't even notice (or remember) that there's been an RC-SK thing going on.

[Dessew]

Everyone forgets about Goofy. I'll do this in the next post (in an hour or so.)
I still think that SK v reinoe is TvT.
Replacing is not scummy, let us not be ridiculous.
Beck: that role was used in math camps, in open setups, so it actually was keeping girls in the game. Actually, it was the exact intent of creating such role.
In the meanwhile, I'm very much interested in Beck's catch-up posts.
Do you know the feeling when you really want to ask someone something but it'd be anti-town af? (rhetorical question)

[Dessew]

Spoiler: The Horror (the worst part is that I'm not even sure if it's relevant)

RVS, I chose you because I really am exhausted, got called in for a morning shift around midnight and it fit for randoms, your serious response is good info though.

While Dessew started out sheeping (admittedly) he has provided a decent amount of content and questions. Putting your thoughts with real reasoning behind them is strong town to me.

The only remark I have to make is that Des calls SK town because of past play of a similar start. Its a bad way to clear someone and build a read, it should be a supplement and not a main reason.

Dess is town.

Phoneposting, so just addressing some stuff I can recall.
SK: you said your push on farside hadn't been serious. What on Earth did you expect, not to be called out?
Konowa: if I was damage controlling, I'd be doing a really bad job, I mean, read again, maybe?
Whoever asked why pops is town: their actions show town motivation and no scum motivation. I'll do a post with quotes tomorrow.
Goofy: I've had a very long conversation in my head with many obnoxious players and other people from my life while walking back and forth in the flat (which makes the cat extremally annoyed) and drinking like one and a half litres of water all thanks to your incompetence. Answer the questions. You're withholding information, or at least that's what you claim. Here's what I want you to do: 1. Find some catalogue of BS (a Coelho generator or whatever) and post it labelled as 'answer to SK's RVS question'. 2. Tell us what SK's posts during the RVS told you about his alignment. I need your thoughts from exactly that point of time, use only the posts from that time. I personally honestly mistrust your capabilities of understanding what I mean by the things said above, partly because of my past experiences, but do what you can, please. In the meantime, I might be just oversensitive because I had to explain someone that things imply themselves, but I'm seriously contemplating a PL on you right now. Jsyk.
Drew: I'd like to hear how I'm '... interesting.'

Des, his reaction read scummy from him trying so hard to find someone to single out quickly, but rather than push that I was horrible scum immediately he went with "just answer the question" which read more like anyone who wanted to get the game rolling fast and have fun. Like I said someone else answered that particular question.

I would like you to explain why you provided nothing but questions with your comment when it was your first one in 24 hours. Did you gather nothing to share since then? Even with my posts during that period you are still on this?

Please stop pluralizing questions, that is the only one that I know of.

Also if not providing basic game theory in a non noob game qualifies as a PL from you, well, that's just sad dude.

A case on town-pops with quotes would have ended up quoting all his posts with more than two lines, so here I go with no quotes. That sentence was the title of a spoiler, but I don't even need to spoiler it. Pops is town because he's actively trying to move the game further. His posts are overall collected and they have a purpose. Example: his stance on the reinoe-SK debate. The whole thing became a mere penis measurement competition, imo, I mean the only actual substance that could be sqeezed out of it appeared just recently. (Reinoe, you should really explain how we were supposed to find out whom you're scumreading from those lists.) Instead of this he actively tried to change the conversation to 'a lynch with strong merits'. That's my case: his ISO has plenty of useful town motivation. (The activity thing isn't unconditionally true, though, or at least I don't agree.)

SK: you said your push on farside wasn't for real (i.e. wasn't genuine.) I'm not saying that insincere=scummy, that's not true at all, but many players do think this way, or at least start their cases based on such (see: wagons all around the site based on anti-towniness, stupidness &c.) So you could have expected that you were gonna be called out! Then why on earth did consider reinoe's vote on you so extraordinary. I don't even remember which post I answered originally, I just want you to come out of the tunnel for now if reinoe manages to explain himself.

reinoe: I write it here, again: how was anyone supposed to know that Konowa being in a bracket means a scumread, but the same for the others doesn't?
sidenote: I've played an open with reinoe, he was scum and much more collected than now.

Cyberbob: I'm an Orthodox Konowa Lyncher, I think the Original Yup Case is sufficient. (He hasn't given much more, yet.)

Goofy or Drew, as I cannot really tell them apart:
During the weekend I can always find a good reason not to post, I spent Sunday with my grandmother then I watched the LEN final. Anyway, asking questions doesn't mean not providing content (to be more precise, if there are question marks at the end of each sentence, there can be still statement, regardless.)
I didn't duplicate any question.
Where did I say anything about SK's meta?
That'd have been a very bad gambit, but I have already stated that I had had no actual plan in my head.

Farside, Cooldog, RC and IAI are flying over my head, I'm gonna read them throughly.

Almost forgot:
Goofy: did you really not post something (effectively not answer a question) because you wanted to avoid pressure? That's just... whoah. I'll think about it.

Cooldog: reinoe's and RedPanda's avatar similar (maybe the same.)

I'm assuming the last part of your first post was for drew as none of it hit home for me. As for avoiding a question because of pressure, you have completely lost me, when did this happen? I didn't answer why rvs because it was like asking the teacher for a definition when you have a dictionary in your hands.

I'm assuming the last part of your first post was for drew as none of it hit home for me. As for avoiding a question because of pressure, you have completely lost me, when did this happen? I didn't answer why rvs because it was like asking the teacher for a definition when you have a dictionary in your hands.

Des, his reaction read scummy from him trying so hard to find someone to single out quickly, but rather than push that I was horrible scum immediately he went with "just answer the question" which read more like anyone who wanted to get the game rolling fast and have fun. Like I said someone else answered that particular question.

I would like you to explain why you provided nothing but questions with your comment when it was your first one in 24 hours. Did you gather nothing to share since then? Even with my posts during that period you are still on this?

During the weekend I can always find a good reason not to post, I spent Sunday with my grandmother then I watched the LEN final. Anyway, asking questions doesn't mean not providing content (to be more precise, if there are question marks at the end of each sentence, there can be still statement, regardless.)

Please stop pluralizing questions, that is the only one that I know of.

I didn't duplicate any question.

Now, since we've got all the posts we need, Goofy, here come the questions. If there's anything you don't get, you will find it in the quotes above.
Why didn't you answer SK's questions right away?
(assuming an answer for the previous:) Did you seriously not answer right away not to get pressure from SK?
Where did I pluralize questions?
Where did I mention SK's meta?
Why couldn't you answer these questions without so many quotes?

PEDIT: I didn't say that to prod you, Beck. And I have been thinking a bit, I'm not gonna ask that question today. Even if it remains unasked, it's gonna sort itself out, and on D1 it'd be really really bad for us.
PEDIT2: Well, by asking that, I'd also state something, so yeah...

[Dessew]

It's not that bad, just a few questions to Goofy. It's just horrible how hard it is to get him answer everything.

[Dessew]

I was making it a point to ignore the why RVS question at first and was watching for his reaction to being ignored when Rei answered of what his reaction gave me. "[His] questions looked like fake scum hunting". I assumed at that point that that was sufficient an answer, and since noone but Skrew pushed right then I believed that it was. Once another player asked it again I answered completely as I chalked the original ordeal up to starting the game and thought we had moved on.

It wasn't to avoid pressure seeing as how ignoring his RVS question brought plenty of that, why would care?

Where you pluralized questions: 4 posts above where i mentioned it, not a hard find:

Phoneposting, so just addressing some stuff I can recall.
SK: you said your push on farside hadn't been serious. What on Earth did you expect, not to be called out?
Konowa: if I was damage controlling, I'd be doing a really bad job, I mean, read again, maybe?
Whoever asked why pops is town: their actions show town motivation and no scum motivation. I'll do a post with quotes tomorrow.
Goofy: I've had a very long conversation in my head with many obnoxious players and other people from my life while walking back and forth in the flat (which makes the cat extremally annoyed) and drinking like one and a half litres of water all thanks to your incompetence.

Answer the questions.

You're withholding information, or at least that's what you claim. Here's what I want you to do: 1. Find some catalogue of BS (a Coelho generator or whatever) and post it labelled as 'answer to SK's RVS question'. 2. Tell us what SK's posts during the RVS told you about his alignment. I need your thoughts from exactly that point of time, use only the posts from that time. I personally honestly mistrust your capabilities of understanding what I mean by the things said above, partly because of my past experiences, but do what you can, please. In the meantime, I might be just oversensitive because I had to explain someone that things imply themselves, but I'm seriously contemplating a PL on you right now. Jsyk.
Drew: I'd like to hear how I'm '... interesting.'

About you mentioning his meta

but SK fisrt[sic] posts do tell plenty of people to just lynch him

I read this as his first posts of the past at this point, I assumed you had played with him before based on it, if thats not the case I guess you ment his first few posts of this game, if this is the case I'll reread some with that frame of mind.

About not answering without quotes, I can at home, If I read 2 or 3 pages of sudden play on my phone I can only answer what stands out, my phone is an old POS but my time away from home+sleep is greater than my time at home by a large margin. If this game was more organised and had less pages of mud slinging it wouldn't be an issue. For your sake I will attempt to do better.

/sigh
Hown many questions do you see here?:

RVS, I chose you because I really am exhausted, got called in for a morning shift around midnight and it fit for randoms, your serious response is good info though.

What info has my response given you? Also:

Why did you feel the need to place a vote at all?

Des, his reaction read scummy from him trying so hard to find someone to single out quickly, but rather than push that I was horrible scum immediately he went with "just answer the question" which read more like anyone who wanted to get the game rolling fast and have fun. Like I said someone else answered that particular question.

Okay, I got this last part. OTOH, you had already neglected the relevant question in #17 and then in #65. No one had said

explicitely

what you said in #253, at least not on the fiSRt three pages.

[Dessew]

Well, yeah, Goofy, but since we're already talking about showing posts each other, I'd be interested in the exact post that happened to answer that question 'for the first time', even if it isn't yours.

[Dessew]

Des, his reaction read scummy from him trying so hard to find someone to single out quickly, but rather than push that I was horrible scum immediately he went with "just answer the question" which read more like anyone who wanted to get the game rolling fast and have fun. Like I said someone else answered that particular question.

reinoe puts on his dazzling thinking

cap

fedora...

Your questions looked like fake scum hunting

so I placed a serious vote just like you asked. Not every vote is to lynch scum. Some votes are for pressure. And just like an insecure teenager who wants to be a non-conformist while hanging out with his friends you gave in to pressure and in doing so exposed your hypocrisy.

A gust of wind blows off reinoe's hat!!!

These two are not the same. #253 is way way more specific.

[Dessew]

@goofy, I see VI not scum from his posts. I just don't see what scum gain from that type of posting.

I'll just go with this and never ever learn that if I specifically ask someone what their read was at a certain point of the game, why they feel the need to use 200 other posts from

after

that point.

It's not even realistic to try to do real scumhunting on RC or IAI until the tumor is excised. RC has improved a little bit, so that's less exciting, and IAI hasn't posted that much, and apparently based on Konowa's amazingly popular lurkerscum playstyle I've learned that if you keep your post count low enough you have lynchproof power role.

TBF, Beck's been posting. His posts aren't overwhelmingly town, but they're reasonable and make sense (they're like a thick, warm blanket to my heart.)

Question for the entire town:Anyone can answer...

1)what are your thoughts on SleepyKrew having one scumread?

2)What are your thoughts on SleepyKrew frequently neglecting to answer questions from several players but asking people to answer his questions?

1) It'd be absolutely fine if it was a good scumread.
2) It's fine. It isn't as bad as you try to make it look.

In the meanwhile, I'm looking for something to do. I'll review the RC case in the not too remote future (today or tomorrow morning (which is like, erm, night for most of you, I guess.))

[Dessew]

@goofy, I see VI not scum from his posts. I just don't see what scum gain from that type of posting.

I'll just go with this and never ever learn that if I specifically ask someone what their read was at a certain point of the game, why they feel the need to use 200 other posts from

after

that point.

maybe the fact that I had to catch up was part of this?

If you and Goofy are not the same person, I don't know what you mean by this.
Here's what I was talking about:

Yep you are correct, seeing as how I had 200 posts to consider it, the beginning of my answer is the same, the rest points out his interaction between then and 253. Like I said, the interactions would give me reads.

Just clearing up; I never ever want to revisit this part of the game.
And with all seriousness, I wouldn't read that reinoe v SK again, either.

[Dessew]

Sorry, I was pre-occupied with poem about the suckiness of being poor and young (let us be honest, youth can amplify the suckiness of poverty.) Anyway, I haven't read the Cooldog case, but I have the the one on RC. TBQH, I don't find it convincing at all, if that's really what there is against him, I'm gonna put him into the townpile.
Goofy makes my palm itch, but he's got some good points about Drew.

[Dessew]

Oh, only five days. I've got several players I want to ISO, I may be starting to do something. You know, like actually playing the game and other crazy stuff.
Neither the RC nor the Cooldog case is appealing to me. Cooldog defense is quite solid.
@Bob: iirc, someone (perhaps farside) said that she had just finished a game with town-reinoe and his game'd been day and night compared to this. Later I posted that I'd had a game with scum-reinoe and the patterns don't match in that way, either.
@IAI: dude, you can say my name. :D

[Dessew]

Almost forgot:
UNVOTE: Beck
VOTE: Drew-sta
I really did mean it when I said Goofy had brought up some good points about Drew. (Even if most of his posts read like 'help me, I think I have too many teeth'.)

[Dessew]

@RC: I don't recall calling Goofy scum. But you're right, that post wasn't the bestest ever, indeed, I just wanted to see if there was any useful information, appearently, there wasn't.
@RC&Drew: there are lots of cases going on and the one on Drew is the best, imo, the most convincing, at least. I'll make my ow case on him. I might reread the whole reinoe stuff with an open mind, though. My problem with the reinoe-wagon is that he

implicitely

called the first bracket scum and didn't the second one.
@Drew: defending others is fine, as long as you don't put answers into their mouths and don't do it with BS.

[Dessew]

@RC: I don't recall calling Goofy scum. But you're right, that post wasn't the bestest ever, indeed, I just wanted to see if there was any useful information, appearently, there wasn't.
@RC&Drew: there are lots of cases going on and the one on Drew is the best, imo, the most convincing, at least. I'll make my ow case on him. I might reread the whole reinoe stuff with an open mind, though. My problem with the reinoe-wagon is that he

implicitely

called the first bracket scum and didn't the second one.
@Drew: defending others is fine, as long as you don't put answers into their mouths and don't do it with BS.

[Dessew]

I don't know how I managed to do this .

[Dessew]

Hey Dessew,

Spoiler:

I'm about to go to bed and I meant to actually do this earlier.

I'm a town neighbor with Dessew. Dessew please confirm.

I can confirm this. I have also realized something just now.

[Dessew]

I know.
We had some pre-game chitchat, I don't know how much reinoe wants to share with you, though.

[Dessew]

I started to make a case on Drew, but I got tangled up. Here are the bits of Goofy's 656 I find good, anyway:

I would quote #225 here but it has been requested that noone does that again. So I will simply state that ad hominen has no place in forum mafia. In live mafia where things can get heated some can be excusable, but in forum mafia it just means that you can't think of anything real to discredit arguments so you have to belittle people to get it done instead.

Spoiler: In post 325 we see Drew trying to convince people to stop using votes to pressure information out of people, very early in day 1, with noone above 4 votes. Basically no more active scum hunting with votes yo

Yes, yes I do.

I'm agreeing with the wagon on Konowa (which Reinoe is pushing), but suggesting my read on RC is stronger and I have more confidence in it. If we get close to end of day and Konowa wagon is still going, I'll happily change vote back and lynch him. However,

I think it is important for each player to stick to their strongest read until that point.

The problem is that just because you're on the wagon I agree with, doesn't mean your reasoning is

right

to be on that wagon. This is what Reinoe is suggesting - that you're either bussing or distancing (or both).

Skrew keeping off RC (or not following through with his thoughts on it) for what I consider insufficient reasons is, in my mind, not pro-town. If the guy is mafia, vote for him. If he isn't then don't.

Intent is the key, Cyberbob.

Why

are you on a wagon.

Spoiler: Here in post 329 We see Drew slip in a defense for Reinoe into a response to a post that did not pertain to Reinoe, seems he may be trying to be more discreet with his defense here

Your thoughts about Skrew's behaviour towards the RC wagon

might

have some potential but only if you're willing to follow through on them. If you're going to accuse someone of being scummy for acting in a way that is similar to how you are acting you can't just handwave the contradiction away with "well I'm obv town and my gut says he's scum", it doesn't work like that. Nobody is obvtown, especially not on D1, you can't sit back and expect people to take your word for it.

PS: Dessew's whole thing with trying to make a case for pops being town is remarkably stupid. Not only is it far too early in the game to be making those kinds of calls, you're also painting a target on that person's back for scum to nightkill.

Neg town isn't necessarily scummy. Neg town is, in my view, acting in a way that is not in towns best interests. Again, intent is important. You can be neg town but town (which is usually the player making a mistake), or you can be neg town and scum (which is scum making a play for a mislynch).

Reinoe is, IMHO, misguided. But he's not, in his argument, being neg town. He's raising valid points especially for Skrew that should be dealt with properly, not dismissed because of his personality.

Think about it.

As I was reading posts, I found this:

The only scenario where it would make sense that Drewscum would verbally cheer on SK's wagon while voting for you is if you are town and SK is his buddy.

Where did Drew 'verbally cheer on SK's wagon'?

[Dessew]

(Assuming you are talking about me.)
I wouldn't call it attacking, but a huge portion of my posts have been about Goofy.
You can call me just Des or Dess or something like that.

[Dessew]

He made only one post with like three sentences in the PT. Although that one post was relatively substantial for a pre-game post.
I've been townreading him for most of the game. I got less certain about my read one or two times, though.
The tones of his posts in the PT and in the thread match one another.

[Dessew]

How many posts did you make in the QT?

Did he town read you right away? Did you town read him right away?

His posts were substantial how exactly?

Here's a transcript:
Des: I'm happy I know my neighbour from earlier. We can talk during pre-game. I think there might be other neighbourhoods. (NOTE: PF's wiki lists Won't You Be My Neighbor Mafia as an upcoming modded open game.) Ask about opinion.
rei: He strongly agrees with my assumption. He's gonna consider us masons. He's bad at scumhunting and thinks he's getting worse over time.
Des: Rei's shown much more certainity about the existence of other neighbourhoods than me and neighbours are no masons. I'm not asking about it now (during pre-game), though. Talking about periods of one's life when one feels that one's scumhunting skills are degrading.

Dessew/reinoe, do y'all have to share that tracker power or is it solely at reinoe's discretion?

I didn't even know about it, tbh.

I started to make a case on Drew, but I got tangled up. Here are the bits of Goofy's 656 I find good, anyway:

I would quote #225 here but it has been requested that noone does that again. So I will simply state that ad hominen has no place in forum mafia. In live mafia where things can get heated some can be excusable, but in forum mafia it just means that you can't think of anything real to discredit arguments so you have to belittle people to get it done instead.

Spoiler: In post 325 we see Drew trying to convince people to stop using votes to pressure information out of people, very early in day 1, with noone above 4 votes. Basically no more active scum hunting with votes yo

Yes, yes I do.

I'm agreeing with the wagon on Konowa (which Reinoe is pushing), but suggesting my read on RC is stronger and I have more confidence in it. If we get close to end of day and Konowa wagon is still going, I'll happily change vote back and lynch him. However,

I think it is important for each player to stick to their strongest read until that point.

The problem is that just because you're on the wagon I agree with, doesn't mean your reasoning is

right

to be on that wagon. This is what Reinoe is suggesting - that you're either bussing or distancing (or both).

Skrew keeping off RC (or not following through with his thoughts on it) for what I consider insufficient reasons is, in my mind, not pro-town. If the guy is mafia, vote for him. If he isn't then don't.

Intent is the key, Cyberbob.

Why

are you on a wagon.

Spoiler: Here in post 329 We see Drew slip in a defense for Reinoe into a response to a post that did not pertain to Reinoe, seems he may be trying to be more discreet with his defense here

Your thoughts about Skrew's behaviour towards the RC wagon

might

have some potential but only if you're willing to follow through on them. If you're going to accuse someone of being scummy for acting in a way that is similar to how you are acting you can't just handwave the contradiction away with "well I'm obv town and my gut says he's scum", it doesn't work like that. Nobody is obvtown, especially not on D1, you can't sit back and expect people to take your word for it.

PS: Dessew's whole thing with trying to make a case for pops being town is remarkably stupid. Not only is it far too early in the game to be making those kinds of calls, you're also painting a target on that person's back for scum to nightkill.

Neg town isn't necessarily scummy. Neg town is, in my view, acting in a way that is not in towns best interests. Again, intent is important. You can be neg town but town (which is usually the player making a mistake), or you can be neg town and scum (which is scum making a play for a mislynch).

Reinoe is, IMHO, misguided. But he's not, in his argument, being neg town. He's raising valid points especially for Skrew that should be dealt with properly, not dismissed because of his personality.

Think about it.

As I was reading posts, I found this:

The only scenario where it would make sense that Drewscum would verbally cheer on SK's wagon while voting for you is if you are town and SK is his buddy.

Where did Drew 'verbally cheer on SK's wagon'?

I didn't cheer on SK wagon. Also, I ask that you to point out exactly what about the argument at me is compelling, and you've basically sheeped Goofy.

I know you didn't, that's why I'm asking Bob about it.

Also, those Goofy quotes are a complete misrep of me. And you know it.

Tell me how they are, then.

If he flips scum we lynch dessew. Drew/dessew scum team where drew decided to defend reinoe for town points. Seems legit.

I don't know how this makes sense, but fine.

[Dessew]

Spoiler: Answer to Drew

@ Dessew

Tell me how they are, then.

Goofy posts:

Spoiler: "In post 325 we see Drew trying to convince people to stop using votes to pressure information out of people, very early in day 1, with noone above 4 votes. Basically no more active scum hunting with votes yo"

And cites 325, highlighting:

I think it is important for each player to stick to their strongest read until that point.

The context of the quote was what Cyberbob said in 324:

You guys realise that supporting wagons you agree with and arguing against wagons you disagree with is what town should be doing right

I was simply suggesting that people should stick with their biggest scum read and argue that case rather than switching over for lesser scum reads so early in the day.

Him saying 'Basically no more active scum hunting with votes yo' is inaccurate - I want scum hunting, and I want pressure through the use of applying votes, but simply flip flopping to other targets means no real pressure is ever built on one target.

He is suggesting I am anti-scum hunting - I am not. I want pressure built on players and then released if they are validated as town.

You can effectively scumhunt even without pushing your biggest suspect, for instance if the people around are simply not interested in it (because they've got other cases to discuss.) You vote whom you want to lynch and you want to lynch scum (players you find scummy.) I don't see why one would be obliged to vote their No. 1 scumread.

Goofy again posts:

"Here in post 329 We see Drew slip in a defense for Reinoe into a response to a post that did not pertain to Reinoe, seems he may be trying to be more discreet with his defense here"

... and cites 329.

The entire exchange is between Reinoe, SK, Cyberbob and I (320 - 349 roughly) - the post was about the topic of Reinoe and Cyberbob's interaction with him / Reinoe's thoughts on Cyberbob's behaviour.

There is no slip.

Regardless, the post you were answering had very little to do with reinoe.

I need a sane players thought process to talk with right now.
I feel like this is the second time rc is push for end of day. I also thought he didn't like my case originally on CD.

TBF, there were like two days left or so.

Pops, it's called PoE. And protecting our power roles identity. All in one.

As for faking my reads, u'll see RC and cooldog throughout my ISO, so get that crap out of here!

Ask yourself two questions

1) do u think bodyguard RC is likely to leave a crumb?

2) more importantly, what pct of the time do scum almost lynched D1 fake claim vs claim VT?

Just a sidenote here: assuming that fakeclaims are always logical is quite a stretch. When Pasch was my buddy he claimed weak doc, iirc, and as I'm thinking about it, it's a horrible fakeclaim (especially as the game had two town vigs and one town gs, and at the time of the claim (even the night before) it could have been guessed.) (For the record, the night before I had called it a good idea.)

[Dessew]

You can effectively scumhunt even without pushing your biggest suspect, for instance if the people around are simply not interested in it (because they've got other cases to discuss.) You vote whom you want to lynch and you want to lynch scum (players you find scummy.) I don't see why one would be obliged to vote their No. 1 scumread.

I think you've hit a stylistic difference - I want people to know who I think is my most scummy person and so keep my vote locked onto them for that effect.

His suggestion that I was anti scumhunting with votes was, to be honest, just wrong.

1. You're the only one using the term 'anti scumhunting', I don't even get what you mean by it.
2. In the original post (eaten by the quote gnome, I guess...) you were talking about

all players

, now you're talking about

just yourself

. That's quite a difference.

Regardless, the post you were answering had very little to do with reinoe.

The context of it all was focussed on Reinoe. I stand by my comment although concede it is contextually dependent.

I can only repeat myself here.

LOL @ the RC wagon. Stop trying to lynch claimed PRs. (Or stop trying to D1-lynch players who have claimed a PR. /sigh)

[Dessew]

I thought I was priority target in that case... for some reason.

[Dessew]

vote:drew

If he flips scum we lynch dessew. Drew/dessew scum team where drew decided to defend reinoe for town points. Seems legit.

Here, I looked it up.
PEDT: Awww...

[Dessew]

@IAI: if someone scumreads RC, they should want to lynch the player who was pressured by RC only verbally not with voting (ergo Drew.) Just my two cents, really.

[Dessew]

Your problem (if I get it correctly) is that RC was only speaking about voting Drew, but when he had to choose between the only two existing wagon, he chose Cooldog instead of Drew. If you scumread RC, the logical thing is to prefer a Drew-lynch to a CD-lynch. You're being irrational.

[Dessew]

I checked, RC voted Drew early in the game and after the wagon on him. So yeah, lynching Drew should be more logical for you.
Tbf, I'm not even really reasoning for the Drew-lynch here. It's simply just hillariously anti-town and scummy from IAI to stick to a lynch that won't happen today

while not even trying to scumhunt with the ongoing wagons.

He claims that there's RC's having voted

Cooldog

instead of

Drew

is alignment telling and yet his preference of today's lynch is

not

based on alignment.
Pedit: now, this forget-argument cannot be taken seriosly. The Cooldog wago was bigger with like one vote. RC didn't even vote right after unvoting (someone confirm this or me, please, phoneposting.)

[Dessew]

I can tell you about what was posted in our PT, but it was mostly reinoe asking me about whom to track and who are my scumreads (I'll post it when not phoneposting.) (Mostly means here that the very vast majority of the posts was about it.)

[Dessew]

Transcript:
r: if he's killed, RC lied.
r: Drew should have claimed earlier. Drew should have ha,,ered CD when he could. Reinoe might suck, but he knows how to play.
d: Drew's not having claimed is trollish. The Vig-flip makes RC's claim even more believable (pairitywise.) All PRs might be outed. Don't like IAI, although town-Drew might make this suspicion non-sensical.
r: asks whom to track.
d: long explanation about past experience, I advise tracking a nullread. I list Bob and Beck as my weakest reads and then Goofy and IAI. I have way too many townreads. Last piece of advice is to track Bob.
d: sharing a neg result immediately might be not the best idea.
r: asks for scumreads.
d: I give the following list (in order of scumminess): reinoe>RC>farside>SK>pops>CD>Goofy>Bob>Beck>IAI. Goofy is in leaning town, that's way too few possible scumreads.
d: don't know if the last three could be a possible team.
r: he prefers finding one scum at a time. Work from flips. It's fine to have a short scumlist. He doesn't know, either, wether they could be a team. SK could improve his behaviour. Asks me about tracking a townread.
r: there're only two hours left. How about not tracking tonight? He's wondering about using it when there're fewer players left. (NOTE: it was around half past 10 here when these two posts were posted. I was sleeping.)

I think he fakeclaimed partly not to get lynched, partly he wanted to pull a gambit (I'd say claiming a negative on one of his townreads.) As you can see, he was seriously contemplating not to 'track' N1.

[Dessew]

d: Drew's not having claimed is trollish

I just realized what I might get from Drew in the DeadQT (if there's one) for this.

[Dessew]

Drew order of scumminess goes from town to scum or scum to town?

I honestly don't know how to feel about this question. Are you trying to imply that I might find the two un-CC'd PRs the scummiest? I can assure you, even if I had thought reinoe was scum, I wouldn't have told him so. Also, I would've tried to find out a bit more.
PEDIT: almost forgot to answer the question, the lefthandside is the townie end.

[Dessew]

@pops: I don't undestand how you get to the conclusion. Could you explain with smaller logical steps, perhaps? I'm being serious here.
@farside: :) I might have been a bit harsh, retrospectively.

[Dessew]

@pops: thank you. However, it isn't convincing at all, you fail to consider RC's actions, which is quite a great lack, since he plays a key role in it. I don't want to go into more details, I'll let SK dismantle it, it's his duty, after all. Nonetheless, I'm still open to discuss other things you've posted today. For instance, what do you mean by you 'don't care' whatever excuse he's got?

[Dessew]

@pops: I'm genuinely interested what you meant by not caring about RC's excuses.

I read IAI's case on RC as if RC's having claimed a BG and lynched a townie played a key role in it, which is just outright absurd. Unfortunately, I know little to nothing about wagon analysis, so I can't provide one. I want to reiterate the point that a Vig and an even number of players make the existence of a BG very beliveable. I'd also like to add, that loosing a Vig instead of a BG is not such a tragedy (something similar arose durig the conversation), as Vigs are wild cards.

[Dessew]

Whenever I read this thread, there's always at least one post that

might

be just a joke!
Scenario A: there's another PR with night actions: they won't be blocked.
Scenario B: there's no other PR with a night action: it doesn't matter wether RC is blocked or not. He's town enough just by being a PR.

[Dessew]

Oh, that reminded me I hadn't voted yet.
VOTE: IAI

[Dessew]

@farside: the part where IAI calls people scum(my?) for lynching Drew is scummy. Just an example: 'you lynched the confirmed town vig Drew' (to whomever, it doesn't really matter.)
I'll look into this pops case when my head isn't full of Banach-Tarsky (you (mathematically) are able to make an ordinary chalk into the size of a mammoth, crazy, right?)

[Dessew]

I also played some part in the Drew-lynch. Not like I want you to bother about it, I mention it just for the record.
About IAI: his... wording is off, maybe? It's hard to find the proper words, but the way'voting confirmed town Drew vig' or whatever sounds is completely off, I mean off in a scummy way (and also in an absurd way, I tend to emphasize this part, not like I should.)

[Dessew]

@farside: oh, I didn't get what you meant. At the end of D1 I didn't like IAI's posting, I made a post about it. It was mostly about his stance on the Drew wagon, I even said in the PT that I should have looked into it with the flip in mind (I haven't, though.) Someone (RC?) said that he was a scumread of his, regardless of the flip, so I took, that from that point of view, he wasn't very townish at least. And then he made his posts of D2. I hope I answered all your questions.
Mentioning pops...

[Dessew]

@farside: 1. I haven't revisited the end of D1. 2. If a townread of mine says it's scummy, I at least excet that it wasn't townish, and since his play on D2 has been scummy, it's just enough for me now.
@IAI: in point 3 you indirectly claim that it is townish to go for the low-hanging fruit. And such things are what I call BS. I'd answer something similar to the question you asked RC: scum-IAI would just push an RC lynch then pull a crafted argument out of his ass to explain why it wasn't scummy.
@singer: he said he'd attemoted to BG reinoe.

[Dessew]

I was away for (almost) literally two days and I managed to catch up in 15 minutes...
@farside: I'll make a chart with quotes and now I really do mean to use quotes. (Although, I can sum my ISO: vote parking on Konowa, answering all kinds of questions, having a pointless exchange with Goofy, whimwhaming on the Drew lynch, posting about IAI, new day, back to IAI, reveal you things I didn't make a secret out of. This guide is pretty reliable if my memory serves well, you could use it. I'll make the aformentiond post, regardless.)
I remember liking the pops wagon but I cannot recall why. I know where to look for it, though, so it's okay.

[Dessew]

First and foremost:
We've got 12 players, so there's at most 3 scums, I guess, otherwise it's probably a major overkill. Let us assume that each and every player has voted three other players. The chance of a townie voting town alll three instances (assuming random votes) is 8/11*7/10*6/9=.339, it's not much, tbf. So the chance of voting at least one scum is voted is 1-8/11*7/10*6/9=.661. There are three scums and three confirmed towns (as IAI claims he's conftown for himself (which is equivalent to being town), OTOH, iirc, he doesn't consider RC conftown, yet) that leaves us with 6 unconfirmed towns. The chance that all of them voting at least one scum is (1-8/11*7/10*6/9)^6=.083. It means that the chance of at least one of them voting no scum is friggin .916. Jesus, Mary and Saint fucking Joseph, IAI's primary reason to scumread Bob is AWFUL.
And before some sentimental comments, yes, it's absolutely reasonable to assume random votes.

[Dessew]

@farside

Spoiler: Goddamit, whenever I say I want to use quotes extensively, I end up just quoting several posts and not doing anything with them, anyway, here are the key posts if anyone's interested.

I checked, RC voted Drew early in the game and after the wagon on him. So yeah, lynching Drew should be more logical for you.
Tbf, I'm not even really reasoning for the Drew-lynch here. It's simply just hillariously anti-town and scummy from IAI to stick to a lynch that won't happen today

while not even trying to scumhunt with the ongoing wagons.

He claims that there's RC's having voted

Cooldog

instead of

Drew

is alignment telling and yet his preference of today's lynch is

not

based on alignment.
Pedit: now, this forget-argument cannot be taken seriosly. The Cooldog wago was bigger with like one vote. RC didn't even vote right after unvoting (someone confirm this or me, please, phoneposting.)

Transcript:
r: if he's killed, RC lied.
r: Drew should have claimed earlier. Drew should have ha,,ered CD when he could. Reinoe might suck, but he knows how to play.
d: Drew's not having claimed is trollish. The Vig-flip makes RC's claim even more believable (pairitywise.) All PRs might be outed. Don't like IAI, although town-Drew might make this suspicion non-sensical.
r: asks whom to track.
d: long explanation about past experience, I advise tracking a nullread. I list Bob and Beck as my weakest reads and then Goofy and IAI. I have way too many townreads. Last piece of advice is to track Bob.
d: sharing a neg result immediately might be not the best idea.
r: asks for scumreads.
d: I give the following list (in order of scumminess): reinoe>RC>farside>SK>pops>CD>Goofy>Bob>Beck>IAI. Goofy is in leaning town, that's way too few possible scumreads.
d: don't know if the last three could be a possible team.
r: he prefers finding one scum at a time. Work from flips. It's fine to have a short scumlist. He doesn't know, either, wether they could be a team. SK could improve his behaviour. Asks me about tracking a townread.
r: there're only two hours left. How about not tracking tonight? He's wondering about using it when there're fewer players left. (NOTE: it was around half past 10 here when these two posts were posted. I was sleeping.)

I think he fakeclaimed partly not to get lynched, partly he wanted to pull a gambit (I'd say claiming a negative on one of his townreads.) As you can see, he was seriously contemplating not to 'track' N1.

@pops: I'm genuinely interested what you meant by not caring about RC's excuses.

I read IAI's case on RC as if RC's having claimed a BG and lynched a townie played a key role in it, which is just outright absurd. Unfortunately, I know little to nothing about wagon analysis, so I can't provide one. I want to reiterate the point that a Vig and an even number of players make the existence of a BG very beliveable. I'd also like to add, that loosing a Vig instead of a BG is not such a tragedy (something similar arose durig the conversation), as Vigs are wild cards.

For motivation, hun (?), trying to push lynches and defend himself with such blatantly wrong reasons is just enough for me.
Illustration:
1177
1183
1188 (compare it with post 1408)
1226 (I especially like the "Yep, you voted the confirmed town vig while I voted CD. Once again, bad argument on your part." part. I never followed up, but how does reinoe's not surviving make RC's claim more beliveable? And if so, why on earth is RC scummy?)
1351 (mafia 101 is pure WIFOM, trying to make himself look town and any player he pushes look scum. I mean, then the indirect towntells IAI is sharing with us are: 1. vote scum 2. start wagons 3. go for weak players 4. throw reads around 5. vote claimed PRs. Tell me IAI, again, why it's highly illogical for scum IAI to vote a claimed BG on D1?)
1359 (I'm simply speechless. For the record, I missed the part where IAI started to townread RC.)

I'll dig into the pops case later.

[Dessew]

Hey dessew, scum hate making enemies...they are going to need some help at end game to win it.

Like cyberbob having just 1 scum read (me) and then a conditional one if I flip scum (singer).

More mafia 101 that u need to learn

Oh dear... No, it doesn't work like this. Getting into a disadvantegous positionand then waving your fingers at others going like "look guys, how I'm at a disadvantage, look how townish I am because of it!!" No, stop, no.
With the same logic you've been using, scum wants to avoid conflicts (to

blend in

), so from your point of view Bob's not posting a list makes him supertown, right?

[Dessew]

I also haven't been told how reinoe's death makes RC's claim more believeable. Nor how your case could still hold while knowing the numbers.

[Dessew]

I've started to read through the pops case, the beginning is not very strong. I didn't like his start of the day, either, but he hasn't really posted any more scummy since (I'm at the middle of page 52.) Also, asking someone to explain why they don't vote a player usually makes them more redundant to vote that player. (Making someone defend an opinion makes them more fond of it.)

[Dessew]

I also haven't been told how reinoe's death makes RC's claim more believeable. Nor how your case could still hold while knowing the numbers.

The claim is more believable with a dead town vig, don't you think?

Yes, it is. We started off with an even number of players, with a BG as the protective role and no Vig we couldn't reasonably change to odd numbers, there fore the presence of a Vig does make a BG claim more belivable.

OTOH, IAI thinks that reinoe's death (who was a Neighbour and fakeclaimed a Tracker) does it, too.

[Dessew]

I have just checked and I think I get it now, so nevermind. It does prove that there's no other protective role than RC.

[Dessew]

I'm not sure why this doubt arose dess.
You originally voted iai for start of day 2 comment and following rc.
Was there a doubt about rc I missed?
Also whom else are you scum reading and why?

I also missed that doubt... What on earth are you talking about?
No one. I'm reading the pops case now, it's quite slow. You might think that the reasons why you scumread pops are obvious, but they aren't. For instance:

IAI's posting is starting to sound delirious, but not in a good way.

Vote: IAmInnocent

To be quite honest, since I made legend at hearthstone I for some reason don't care if I win this game.

Anyone thinking this is town needs to explain why in there next freeking post.

I've read this like five times and not just one after another, but leaving a few minutes between some "sessions" and I still can't see your point.

[Dessew]

SK: yes, I know, I'm not ISO'ing, so you didn't post in vain.
Is there anything new to the case after page 52, though? I reiterate the point: arguments polarize and create confbias. If you ask someone to defend a stance they get more fond of it. Jeez, I've read about it on this site like three times and I hardly touch old stuff.

[Dessew]

2. Polarization: Turns out if you argue a position, even if you don't agree with the position you'll grow to favor it. So asking people to make a case against X and them actually doing it makes them more likely to follow through with their vote.

It's the last time I saw it, I guess. (And it's from a GD thread, you can surely find a handful of MD threads with this piece of information.)

[Dessew]

I'm not calling it town, nevertheless, I don't see why it's scummy. (A post not being explicitely town is nothing to work with. If you think it is, I'll post tomorrow an article about shepards, try to have a read on me from that.) You're supposed to try to get a wagon moving, how about posting your point instead of Yoda-like questions?
I'm halfway through. SK brought up one and a half good points about pops calling/not calling Drew scum. The half point is about pops's posts about SK at the beginning of this day, it might lead to somewhere, but tbh I doubt. Suprisingly enough, IAI provided another interesting point about pops's not voting. It feels like testing waters a bit.

[Dessew]

Is there anything new to the case after page 52, though?

In 1330 (which is on page 54) I show that calling Drew "the lesser of two evils" is disingenuous because he straight up called Drew scummy near the end of D1. I might have said that before, but I think 1330 is when I went and got the actual quote.

Yes, that's what I meant by good point. I'm phoneposting, so that's why the lack of quotes now.

[Dessew]

Ohhh, farside.

[Dessew]

Ohhh, farside.

Hmm?

Playing with two accounts innthe same game is a serious violation of the rules.
But, yeah, I don't like drama, that's all. And it's nothing more than drama.
@farside: I asked you a question and I'm truly interested what your answer is

if it makes you feel better!

[Dessew]

I posted: ohhh, farside, and you went like hmmm?

It was a joke!

RC's and farside's exchange is literally just a personal argument, as RC's on the offensive and he's explicitely said he doesn't want to lych her. There aren't even questions asked.

[Dessew]

@PF: Sorry; I didn't intend to violate any rules (not like intentions matter, though.)

Spoiler: Posts about IAI on D2 (short edition)

Further, I'll go so far as to say Drew's flip doesn't change my IAI read one bit. If anything, I'm just going to dig in deeper. IAI knows better than to try and push a lynch on a non-cc'd protective role, one that is provable (as I maintain a BG is). The only possible explanation for what he did is if he's gunning to fakeclaim as a protective role. He egged Drew on to push an irresponsible wagon on me.

pops and farside were both co-conspirators in that fiasco that was the CD wagon failure, but, to their credit, they backed off after my claim. Cyberbob was kind of too, but at the very least Cyberbob was on record as scumreading me way before I claimed (he even criticized Drew for having the audacity to equate his scumread of me with Cyberbob's, which I found very comical). I can give Cyberbob a pass on this even though he was wrong.

For my money, it's IAI-pops/farside-beck/CD/maybe Dessew (I have a townread on him for going after IAI at the end of the day like he did, but you can't ignore the neighbor issue now with reinoe's flip).

VOTE: I Am Innocent

---

Do you know how many times those dead townies received my vote? ZERO.

What an absolutely manufactured argument. First off, you were effectively missing for the first half of this game, whining about CD when it wasn't relevant to anything. Then, when CD became relevant, you conspicuously abandoned it in favor of voting for a non-CC'd protective role that can be proven. Second, you were supposedly "willing to switch to Drew" 799 (presumably if he didn't go for your sinister bidding), you can't turn around and say that not voting him makes you this town saint. Third, what the heck is wrong with town voting town on D1 of all days? As reinoe said, being wrong isn't a scumtell. If anything, it shows that you're considering opinions that aren't your own and critically thinking.

How is that obtuse? If any wagon late in the day pops up on any of these players, would you not consider them for a lynch?

You assuming that my scumread on you and my scumread on, for instance, Dessew (a player I made it a point to explain my read on) are equivalent is you being obtuse. No, they are not the same. It's quite clear that you are far and away at the top of that, and I'm going to press for your head before any of the others.

RC, I know your lazy/OMGUS'ing, but me, pops, and Farside were not on that Reinoe wagon of 5. Neither was beck or dessew.

So 5 of ur 6 scum reads are not on the wagon...do u really think Beck or Dessew could be the last scum and that none of the 3 scum were on that Reinoe wagon?

How can I OMGUS a player that isn't voting me...? :?

This is a fair point, however. But you have to understand that I'm town and I suspect reinoe, so there's already bias inherent in that. Further, I'm more than willing to alter my reads based on flips. It seems like I had to tell Drew that 5 times, but I guess I'm going to have to be prepared to state it 5 more times. I obviously don't know if that prediction is going to be accurate. It's what I think right now, however.

And where do you think most scum would go "If he had claimed vig"? Do you think they're going to say "No, I'm gonna keep pushing a claimed town vig" (which has alot more weight than a bodyguard, which DOES NOT PREVENT A DEATH AT NIGHT, NOR PROVIDE ANY INVESTIGATIVE INFORMATION).

No they are going to blend in and play the "i'm a good player" card.

This is straight WIFOM and you not acknowledging it is scummy. To answer your question, however, is to ask you why you'd presume to know what I'd do as scum in the first place? Further, my point was that there are things you need to hold your nose and swallow as town, all differences aside. I contend that Drew couldn't do that, hence why I was telling Dessew that calling him trollish is pretty accurate.

CoolDoG/IAI team very possible. Will need to go back and read up on their interactions again at some point.

CD mentioned IAI all of two times yesterday despite IAI throwing all sorts of accusations and votes his way. Not wanting to react too hard to a bus?

I read IAI's case on RC as if RC's having claimed a BG and lynched a townie played a key role in it, which is just outright absurd. Unfortunately, I know little to nothing about wagon analysis, so I can't provide one. I want to reiterate the point that a Vig and an even number of players make the existence of a BG very beliveable. I'd also like to add, that loosing a Vig instead of a BG is not such a tragedy (something similar arose durig the conversation), as Vigs are wild cards.

Are you attacking iai for attacking you only? Why do you have the groups you do as scum together?

Current scumreads.

In regards to IAI, check out 689 where he fishes for a doctor claim. This caught my eye immediately because it looked as though he was trying to breadcrumb being a protective role here. He mentions doctor out of nowhere, and the statement is awkward. All he needed to say was that you were his biggest townread. It would then be assumed that he would think you were worthy of a doc protection in his eyes. You may have missed it on the first go around, but I didn't because I knew I had a protective role already. It didn't make sense for someone to throw that out there to me. Another point, I find is conspicious that CD has been really lax about mentioning IAI at all, despite the fact that IAI had been attacking him throughout most of D1. That doesn't look like a town-town relationship to me, but, rather, either scum-scum or scum-town. Check out 906 where he tries to throw dirt on my BG claim. Him and Drew try and tag team me and get me lynched post-claim. Also, I have no idea how a BG claim is "easy" for scum to fake? Maybe we could ask IAI how it's "easy" for me to fake my own death? A doctor is an easy claim to fake, because the scum could always NK if they need to. Remember this is what IAI was angling to do before I called him out. I also want to point out, just so that I am on the record for this and you know this, I wanted IAI lynched yesterday (957), but I realized it would be foolish to try and pivot the wagon that late in the day. Three other quick points against IAI:

1) IAI was coming after me for voting CD as opposed to Drew yesterday saying that I flipped my townread on CD. That was a misrepresentation as I explained in 1106. IAI wanted to know if I would vote CD specifically as a counterwagon to reinoe prior to reinoe's claim. Under those specific conditions, I did not want to vote CD. But after reinoe's claim and the (rightful) collapse of his wagon, CD was no longer a counterwagon to reinoe because reinoe wasn't a viable wagon any longer, do you follow me?
2) IAI contradicts himself in his own post, calling CD town and then asking players to vote for him in 1112.
3) IAI's contention that him not voting reinoe or Drew during D1 in post 1177 is hardly convincing at all. I elaborate as to why in 1191, but the short of it is that IAI is on record as saying he would vote Drew. It's nonsensical for him to turn right around and claim that him never voting Drew makes him town... he offered to do so!

I don't see why iai as scum would continue targeting the claim bg. There wasn't a cc and there is typically the chance of scum rb.

As is evidence by his vote on Cyberbob, he has since stopped targeting me. But don't forget what he said in 906...

---

Why did you vote IAI instead of CD?

Because IAI is far and away my bigger scumread today and at the end of yesterday (see what I said above, but I will restate my points for you specifically if necessary).

What I wanted to talk to you about was what we were talking about before the lynch.

I did address it...

• This doesn't explain voting for someone you said you absolutely wouldn't vote, instead of a different scumread.

  
  
  What do you mean? You're the one I'd least expect to be swayed by IAI's scummy crap because I've been the most honest with you about my scumread on Drew as it has evolved over the course of this game (see: 516, 522)
  
  Also, IAI is leaving out a significant point of context here. IAI specifically asked me if I would vote CD or Cyberbob

  as a counter wagon to reinoe

  . That's the criteria, okay? He qualified that statement and he's now omitting the qualifier to paint me in a certain light. In the universe where reinoe is my top scumread and hasn't claimed, I absolutely would never join IAI on a CD counter wagon. In the universe where reinoe is no longer my top scumread and has claimed, I absolutely could conceivably vote CD. But it's no longer a counter wagon to reinoe. Do you follow me?
  
  SK, IAI and Drew are both adept at twisting words around. They overplayed their hand here because they thought the could lynch me even after I claimed. They got greedy. They both need to be hanged.

  
  

---

About IAI: his... wording is off, maybe? It's hard to find the proper words, but the way'voting confirmed town Drew vig' or whatever sounds is completely off, I mean off in a scummy way (and also in an absurd way, I tend to emphasize this part, not like I should.)

Also IAI thinks I'm scum for pushing a wagon that ended up being on a town player on Day 1.

To be honest I'm not 100% sure what to make of pops, if he is scum it would be fair to say that he's successfully flying under my radar. I can say that I very much don't like this post:

IAI's not a bad lynch. I liked his recent posting but his day one posting was pretty lackluster.

IAI's recent posting has been terrible. He calls himself guaranteed town because he never voted for two flipped town players - one of whom was only flipped by a scum kill. His five point "theory" of scum behaviour is shit. This post from pops does feel like it could plausibly be scum manoeuvring around from a previous "town read" into a bus. Always be on the lookout for wishy-washy reactions like this.

The obvious catch here is that it's one of those reads that is predicated on someone else's alignment (I don't think pops-scum would have the same attitude towards IAI if IAI were town). IAI is still the best lynch today.

For motivation, hun (?), trying to push lynches and defend himself with such blatantly wrong reasons is just enough for me.
Illustration:
1177
1183
1188 (compare it with post 1408)
1226 (I especially like the "Yep, you voted the confirmed town vig while I voted CD. Once again, bad argument on your part." part. I never followed up, but how does reinoe's not surviving make RC's claim more beliveable? And if so, why on earth is RC scummy?)
1351 (mafia 101 is pure WIFOM, trying to make himself look town and any player he pushes look scum. I mean, then the indirect towntells IAI is sharing with us are: 1. vote scum 2. start wagons 3. go for weak players 4. throw reads around 5. vote claimed PRs. Tell me IAI, again, why it's highly illogical for scum IAI to vote a claimed BG on D1?)
1359 (I'm simply speechless. For the record, I missed the part where IAI started to townread RC.)

I'll dig into the pops case later.

First and foremost:
We've got 12 players, so there's at most 3 scums, I guess, otherwise it's probably a major overkill. Let us assume that each and every player has voted three other players. The chance of a townie voting town alll three instances (assuming random votes) is 8/11*7/10*6/9=.339, it's not much, tbf. So the chance of voting at least one scum is voted is 1-8/11*7/10*6/9=.661. There are three scums and three confirmed towns (as IAI claims he's conftown for himself (which is equivalent to being town), OTOH, iirc, he doesn't consider RC conftown, yet) that leaves us with 6 unconfirmed towns. The chance that all of them voting at least one scum is (1-8/11*7/10*6/9)^6=.083. It means that the chance of at least one of them voting no scum is friggin .916. Jesus, Mary and Saint fucking Joseph, IAI's primary reason to scumread Bob is AWFUL.
And before some sentimental comments, yes, it's absolutely reasonable to assume random votes.

IAI's reason for declaring himself town is probably even more questionable, it was awfully convenient for him that the other town member that he never voted for/I did vote for was chosen for death by scum last night. He wasn't terribly backwards in being forward about this either - it came, totally unprompted, in his second post in Day 2.

(I just ISO'd Bob, RC and myself, quoted relevant stuff, deleted irrelevant stuff &c. Most posts have links/quotes or are very close to the relevant IAI post.)

[Dessew]

I think he wants to distance from the wagon because it led to VIG LYNCH.
The problem isn't that he voted Drew or claimed to find him scummy. The problem is that after the flip, pops has been acting like Drew wasn't a scumread.

Wit all due respect, but IAI is the only one who says that mislynching a townie (or a PR, w/e) is outright scummy.

[Dessew]

What I'm trying to imply is that the idea of that wagon (or other wagons) would have such a huge impact on how this day turns out is very unique to IAI. So if you're right with the explanation, pops got the idea from him, right? I mean, I state it: if pops lied with the intentions you wrote a few posts ago (and let's be honest, the only other "reasonable" explanation is that he forgot), then it originates from IAI and therefore they're most likely buddies. I don't know if they make sense as a team otherwise, I haven't been looking at them only individually.
@IAI: why did you dislike pops' not voting? (you know, between voting you and voting you iirc.)

[Dessew]

Going to do some vote count analysis, for Dessew/RC/guessing CyberBob when he checks in, we have two dead townies. Do you know how many times those dead townies received my vote? ZERO.

How about analyzing the wagons yourselves to see where scum is on there. Cyberbob's vote early D1 (3rd on Reinoe) got my attention early. It was why I jumped on him. Guarantee that scum was on those wagons, so how about "analyzing" them rather than OMGUS'ing, RC? Dessew, same challenge goes to you.

Dessew this is what I said which is different than what u claimed I said.

Didn't know it was rocket science that says scum usually vote town...

It might've been a bit exaggerating, but I think I managed to grasp the spirit of it. Because scumminess tends to act likean intensive property and other physics shenanigans.
About the second, I'd share a piece of information with you. When I'm scum, I usually vote one of my buddies at least once (I should stop it, though, it must be dangerously easy to meta.)

Because he mentioned 3 possible scum when he unvoted but yet didn't throw out a vote. No vote = no pressure, so why would town not want to pressure one of their scum reads.

Or in the case of scum, they tend to throw out a few names, see 'which way the wind blows' and then vote along with the group.

The latter is what I felt pops might be doing.

It's actually a good answer. However, he'd voted you earlier on this day, unvoted, then switched back to you. What do you make of that? Also, your wagon's been around for almost the entire day.

What I'm trying to imply is that the idea of that wagon (or other wagons) would have such a huge impact on how this day turns out is very unique to IAI. So if you're right with the explanation, pops got the idea from him, right? I mean, I state it: if pops lied with the intentions you wrote a few posts ago (and let's be honest, the only other "reasonable" explanation is that he forgot), then it originates from IAI and therefore they're most likely buddies. I don't know if they make sense as a team otherwise, I haven't been looking at them only individually.

So you're saying that they could be buddies but you haven't really looked into it? Or am I misinterpreting?

Well, not exactly, as I've actually shown up some reasoning why they might be buddies (in certain circumstances.) But yes, your interpretation isn't very off.

[Dessew]

1188 (compare it with post 1408)

I don't get this at all - can you explain?

There were 5 players on both wagons, yet he it plays a major role in his reads. Most of his points about Bob are these wagon stuff and voting patterns. Ooooh, you haven't been shown Mafia 101 yet, have you?

Wasn't the Vig claim made *after* the lynch had happened? Because I read IAI calling people scummy for lynching a provable role - but that only makes sense if the claim came prior to the lynch. Can someone clarify? What I read made it look like the claim came after.

Drew claimed after the hammer.

[Dessew]

@farside: the part where IAI calls people scum(my?) for lynching Drew is scummy. Just an example: 'you lynched the confirmed town vig Drew' (to whomever, it doesn't really matter.)
I'll look into this pops case when my head isn't full of Banach-Tarsky (you (mathematically) are able to make an ordinary chalk into the size of a mammoth, crazy, right?)

I'm going to spell this out for you.

If you are town, in a game with 11 other players, presumably 3 of which are scum, that means you have a random chance of voting scum 3 out of 11 times (27%) and town 8 out of 11 times (73%).

Scum knows who is town and who isn't, so if a bad townie makes a fool of himself and gets a large wagon, who do you think is going to vote it. A few townies (73% of them maybe, as a reasonable guess), and maybe 2 of the 3 scum?

So when I see two townies, now dead, WHICH MAKES THEM CONFIRMED TOWNIES NOW, and FIVE players were on both those wagons, I'm guessing scum are in that list. Probably at least two. What do you think?

But yet you seem to think scum avoided BOTH of those wagons. Because that is what I did and that is what you are calling me (scum).

I'm going to clue everyone into mafia 101:

1) scum like to vote town
2) scum like to do it without drawing attention, which usually means not starting the wagon and...
3) ...not voting obvious town (aka, picking easy targets, which are those who usually draw large wagons)
4) scum like to not give lots of reads (that way they are free to maneuver more)
5) scum like to play the good guy feature, which means if someone claims, let's jump to another wagon cause look at me, I'm a good townie

and so on and so forth.

Dessew, when I scumhunt, I think what would I do as scum. Is that player doing it, or not.

Cyberbob has done almost all of those items above.

One could say IAI has not done 1, 2 (started a Cyberbob wagon, Cooldog wagon, pushed RC hard after he claimed), 3, 4, and 5.

Call my posts arrogant, but if you are town, ask yourself 'what would scum do'. You will find many answers in that and become a much better scumhunter I promise.

[Dessew]

@farside

Yep, you voted the confirmed town vig while I voted CD. Once again, bad argument on your part.

I'm not quoting the whole post because it's way too long to do that.

[Dessew]

Dessew, RC, pops, same question for u.

I... honestly don't know. BTW, have you answered what you thought about pops voting-unvoting-voting you? I must have missed it.

If IAI flips town and pops wins as scum I'm going to be a sad panda.

Again, I must have missed a post here. Last time IAI wasn't in your town pile, right? Has anything happened since then?

Has squirel explained why pops is not scum based on meta?
I'm a bit busy for the next 2 days so someone needs to follow up on that.

I might mess up the terminology now because I'm not implying that you're doing it

intentionally

, but you seem to strawman squirel's arguments so that they look like ad logicam and then you ad logicam them. Pops wasn't called town, iirc.
With all that said, farside's posting seems genuine.

Let's go into hypothery for a moment. If one wagon is town and the other is scum then does it make sense to bus?

Before RC stated his explicit intent to hammer? No. After? Possibly. I think there are good reasons both to bus and not to bus, trending more towards bussing the longer the day goes on without a hammer. On the other hand they might be worried that hammering at any point would draw suspicion tomorrow. (all of this is assuming both that pops is scum and RC is town) In conclusion: it's terribly WIFOM, but I am positive that someone better at mafia theory than me has worked out a general rule about it in the past.

I wouldn't discard the possibility of a two-slot scum team. SK has already pointed out that with a three-player scum team, a vig and twelve players at the start this game could end awfully fast.

This variety stuff should be elabourated.

[Dessew]

I doubt IAI is town, he's just confident in his manipulation skills and wants to provide us every last bit of it. Anyway, playing along...:

Dessew, RC, pops, same question for u.

I... honestly don't know. BTW, have you answered what you thought about pops voting-unvoting-voting you? I must have missed it.

I haven't got an answer.

Also, revealing the reasoning behind your reads would be nice. (I mean if you

dare

.)

[Dessew]

I'm happy now. We did do well today.
@Squirel: are you scumreading farside now? (I'm a bit lost, tbh.) If so, then what is your read on pops and how strong is it? (Or not just "if so", it might be not intersting, though.)

[Dessew]

inb4 flip

[Dessew]

Or not. I mistook someone else for PF.
Anyway, I have a sudden rush of ideas, there are soooo many things to look into. I've got ambitions!
Gotta sleep, though, good night.

[Dessew]

@Squirrel: interesting. Farside's been pushing pops for quite a long time. If they're both scum, it's the most brutal and pointless bussing I've ever heard of (aside from dayvigging a buddy who's not been pressured at all and other nonsense.) So my conclusion, or more like the natural conclusion imo is that those two cannot be buddies. Any opinion on this?

[Dessew]

@Squirrel: I expected you to have a weak associative read on pops then if nothing else. Since your main suspect seems to be farside, you know. NOTE: I'm not saying that there should be a strong or an independent read on him, but having a null on the player who's got so distinctive exchanges with one's strong scumread is suprising. I'm not sure what to make out of it, though. One more thing to look into.

[Dessew]

I'm hiding? That's news to me.

I'm just ignoring him for now, he's clearly decided to stop providing content. (Which is a shame, but the fact that he's doing such a niccage-like "whatever" acting now is soooo soooo soooo good. I cannot wait for the flip. It's like waiting for the results of my application for secondary school: it's exciting and safe (I mean there was no way I wouldn't get in that grammar school.) This game has provided me so much nostalgia.)

[Dessew]

Goofy, are you scum? If not, unvote.

[Dessew]

SLEEPYKREW

Sadly, the answer is no or none, depending on what the question is. OTOH, I have skimmed farside's D1 posting, I thought maybe she breadcrumbed whom she was gonna track, but I didn't find anything (at one instance she called Konowa Konowa instead of Konawa, though. Fun fact: there's a town named Konawa in the US. I don't think it's any good, though.) All I can think of is the setup now, but naturally it doesn't lead us anywhere. Also, it'd be so much easier if scum jst acted scummy and town acted townish...

[Dessew]

It might be MyLo. Pops is on L-3. Goofy was around, I didn't check wether Squirrel was.

[Dessew]

Check the numbers, it takes 5 to lynch.
You're right, I'm not discussing nor pushing a NL atm. Your logic is falsch, though, there are like two weeks left. Only half the playerlist has posted today. Letting a quicklynch happen wouldn't be nice.

[Dessew]

Damn. Sorry, farside. I really screwed this one up. That teaches this game to listen to me as town.

I protected Dessew last night, of course. I figured he would've been the kill for sure.

I also looked over farside's posting and the only thing that seems to stick out to me is that I think she probably tracked a Konowa innocent on N1. I agree with Dessew. Nothing else really makes sense given that she was not a fan of Konowa and then she backed off of him during D2.

I'm happy to vote pops today, but I need to hear more from Goofy. I agree with Dessew, his post today is unsatisfactory.

I didn't actually mean that Konowa part seriously... Damn, I should just stick posting things that are strictly game-related, it's not the first time I screwed up in this game. Anyway, what RC says certainly makes sense.

All I have now is that I managed to make up my mind about something I've been thinking lately (so no actualy new stuff, at least from my point of view.) Based on this, I think Bob has just townslipped:

I think it's probable that pops is scum but there are 2 other scum in this game that we need to find at some point (let's be real here, it's a 3 man scum team).

Because I hardly doubt it is a three-man team. Let's see, I wouldn't attempt to use my own sense of balance, as I haven't proven to have any, but let's look at the setup, what we know.
There are 12 players. Two neighbours, one bodyguard (I believe RC's claim), one vigilante and one tracker, which is just a nerfed cop, actually, and there's a roleblocker on the other side. Now, if you drop the neighbours, but make the tracker a cop and the whole setup open (instead of closed), you make the town much stronger. Notice how there's already a protective, an informative and a killing role on town's side and a blocking role on scum's side.

[Dessew]

When the fuck was 25% scum unbalanced?

So something pinged my 'oh shit RC-Dessew-Konowa' scumteam radar because I don't know why anyone would assume that Farside 1. inno'ed Konowa, let alone 2. Chose to track him in the first place. And duh? Dessew? Why was Dessew such an obvious target over farside?

Granted, this isnall oending them being the scumteam together, so if even one flips town that theory is destroyed.

Who's to say it wasn't a guilty on pops that she didn't want to claim so pushed so hard for? I would bank on that being a pops/squirrel girl team...no idea on a third, though...

The comment about the typos was meant to be a joke, making jokes is not my cup of tea, as it seems. But the fact is that farside didn't really bother with Beck on D2 iirc, and she didn't she didn't push pops at the beginning of the day. At the end of D2 she would have claimed if she had had a guilty a pops, I'm pretty sure about that. (Not like a tracker inno would mean anything much, though.)

Not to mention a neighborless neighbor is a nobody. It's also worth noting that the "transcript" of the night talk after Reinoe died could be edited to fit the scum plan, which would be a good reason to kill them N1.

It's not important by any means, tbqh, but how about sharing what diabolical plan could those posts of mine serve? All I'm asking for now is one relatively believable scenario, whatever comes to your mind first, it should just make sense to some extent, please.

I have not been enjoying this game.

If it's mylo, there's not much use in me leaving my reads behind, huh? So I mighty well skip that.

Now, stop acting stupid.

About Squirrel: I dislike her stance on pops. I couldn't really put it anywhere at the end of D2, but with today's posting it's a bit wishy-washy. 1968 is also valid.

[Dessew]

Was this a hammer?

[Dessew]

Scum-Squirrel really doesn't make much sense, I was very much wrong yesterday. I'll make a post when I get home.
@singer: are you pushing an RC-lynch, or what?

[Dessew]

I promised a post (which I meant to be mainly about Squirrel), but instead I'm just posting that she's making a point about herself, despite the fact that she did

not

harddefend pops and it is a bit wifomy. I don't feel enough power in myself to post more now, sorry.

[Dessew]

It's technically a prode-dodge, I'm terribly sorry.
@Squirrel: you listed pops as a null on D2, didn't you? Then calling it

hard

defense is quite a stretch.

[Dessew]

@Squirrel: it doesn't matter, I stated it just as a matter of facts.
About singer: The D2 part of the case on her seems to forget about the fact that the IAI wagon was a thing at the time. I'll look into this Drew stuff.
So will I look into the Bob thing.
Tbh, I'm quite suprised that I'm not really pushed because of my role. I'm not really sure what two twon neighbours are supposed to do.
And if anyone was wondering, I wasn't posting this week because I had to (and still have to on this week) look at small metal stuff and check if they were scratched too much for a suprisingly long time each day. So Bob can stop worrying.

[Dessew]

Oh, at some point I'll ask for a case on me, but if I demanded it to be posted right now, it'd be quite hypocritic, given my level of activity, and I definitely should avoid that with Demokles's sword above my neck, shouldn't I? :D So, how about in the next three ot four days?
I am rereading some of the pops-CoolDog exchange of D1, I cannot see why it's so damning, yet. I know you (maybe Bob?) emphasized the part where pops voted Drew, so I know where to look. I recall, though, that I didn't like the case on CoolDog.
@Goofy: pops was pushing a Konowa lynch, how about that?
And reiterating this: I think there's only one scum is left. (I remember towreading Bob based on that on D3.)

[Dessew]

LOL, I call people bad only when I'm grumpy. My mood's been suprisingly good since the weekend. PoE is fair enough, I was hoping a 'real' case, though. Anyway, I suspect a two-player scumteam because of balance: 1. There're potentially two NKs each night and no town role can reduce the number of people dying, yet we're only two on our own (see SK's comments.) 2. There's a similar setup on this forum with three scum, except that it's open, town is more powerful and there's one more player (it's in that mith-project.) That tells me that three scum would be scumsided.
@RC: I think it's quite the contrary. If I thought there were two scum left, I'd just vote the bigger wagon out of singer and Bob. I mean you're town, Squirrel is also most likely town, and Goofy's posting doesn't seem to be beneficial from a scum point of view (stolen argument from CD.) There are three viable lynches today, one of them is me, I'd rather not go into LyLo or MyLo with ths situation. The only solution is to hit scum today (as I don't really like the idea of me being lynched.)

[Dessew]

A quick check-in.
@Squirrel: before you make a comment on one of my posts, read it, please, thank you. I'm slightly leaning towards scum-Bob, but maybe just cause there've been some case attempts on singer's slot that I explicitely dislike.

[Dessew]

A quick check-in.
@Squirrel: before you make a comment on one of my posts, read it, please, thank you. I'm slightly leaning towards scum-Bob, but maybe just cause there've been some case attempts on singer's slot that I explicitely dislike.

So you actually think that Singer/Cyber could make sense as a scum pair?

No, I think that there's only one scum left, therefore there's no pair at all.

[Dessew]

I mean... I've had this stance consistently for

days

.

Game days

.

[Dessew]

I've got a bit more time, so I go into details.

@Dessew - I see a few holes in that logic. However, let's just say I could convince you that there was a three scum team - who would your suspects be for the last two?

What holes? I'd really like to hear some arguments for a three-player scum team aside from the "that's the usual" one. I'd be happy even with an ad-logicam-esque whatever you claim to have. And why do you ask me about my reads then if 1. they're in my post 2. this is what you post later:

With Dessew openly saying he'd vote whichever wagon was bigger.

So you did read that part of my post. Not to mention that your statement isn't true as it is because I think there's one scum, and nothing has been posted that even attempted to change it. (I don't think anything could, though, my resoning is solid, imho.)

[Dessew]

Cooldog replace out looked really bad, and that's reason enough for him to be lynchable today. Especially the way he explained it, since he contributed fine day one.

Can someone explain me how this makes sense with singer-scum?
VOTE: Cyberbob

[Dessew]

Well there's my nightly dose of comedy, time for bed

You're welcome.

[Dessew]

Well, yeah. Whenever something comes into my mind, I'll post it, but having some cases on me would be nice, too. Since I'm the leading wagon. I'm looking at Bob, specifically, Squirrel and RC have already given their reasoning, I cannot do much with those, though. It's just rude of Bob to deny my dose of comedy. :)

[Dessew]

@RC: "there wasn't a wagon at the time": but, but that's part of the point. It wasn't the first time pops attacked CD, if you look at his stances, there are actually quite a few flips and flops. The point is that if your buddy replaces and there's just little pressure on them, bussing makes no sense, especially if you had a nullread earlier. The pops-CD/singer interactions don't add up, and what else do you have against her? Iirc, there was that she had changed her vote very early from a viable wagon to a viable wagon or whatever and there's her playstyle, which wasn't addressed properly, just a "scum plays like this" "I play like this" type conversation leading to literally nowhere.

[Dessew]

Oh my God, how dense I was! If there's one scum left, there's no way that it's me. Because then I'd have to be a Neighbour Roleblocker with pops being a Goon. That's just nonsense, it'd be unnecessarely swingy and against site-meta. So we HAVE TO discuss the setup. I'll make a post about it right away, revisiting the points I posted earlier.

[Dessew]

Okay, so there are two distinct points.
1. It was originally posted by SK. The point is that if there were two three scum, the game could have ended jusr after two mislynches. It's quite straightforward.
2. It's a bit unorthodox. So the point is that I show that if there were three scum, the game wouldn't be balanced. I'll do this by comparing this game to a similar setup.
There are going to be a few assumptions you might disagree with, so let's clear them up beforehand.
a) All town PRs have been outed. It's actually kind of a crucial point, but since a killing and an informative role has already flipped, there's an unCC'd protective role, there's most likely a scum blocking role and btw, a miscellanious town role has flipped, too.
b) RC is town. I think he's been pretty townish and he's an unCC'd PR. But even if he was scum, it would just amplify my point. RC being town also means that there's a scum RB.
Okay, so we need a setup now. I won't link anything because I'm posting from my phone, but there's a thread called "(Semi-) Open Design Challenge Finalists (Kids With Guns!)" (please look at it, the OP is mith if it makes it easier for you to find it.) You can find several setups in the OP, the one created by Jackal is very similar to the one in this game. Jackal's setup (probably) went through a process (I don't know much about this whole challange stuff, tbh), so I take that it's balanced (and balance is objective &c. all the stuff you hear.)
Then let's assume that we've got three scum after all. How does PF's game differ from Jackal's?
b) It's closed. Closedness buffs scum. For instance, in an open there would be no bright mind who wants to lynch an unCC'd BG.
b) There' some neighbour thing going on. Two town neighbours are obviously weak af, but you don't know my alignment, so let's consider a town-scum pairing, as well. Well, it's still not powerful, imo, there are some slip possibilities, of course, and if the scum dies earlier, the townie gets a bunch of towncred, but the advantages get overwhelmed by point c)
c) There's a Tracker instead of a Cop. Cops are one of the most powerful roles. Also, consider the usefulness of a Tracker with a Vig alive. Or a BG alive. It can receive false positives and false negatives. So adding point b and c together, town get nerfed to some extent.
d) One less player. It doesn't even need a comment.
So if there were three scum, you could get PF's game by taking Jackal's and making it more scum-sided to a considerable extent. That's no balance, therefore there must be a two-player scum team.

@singer: I meant that in that case for example if the roleblocker dies, scum loses the neighbour, too (as they are the same player.) And that situation might as well create a conftown, as well (see above.) In my experience scum PR are usuallyy spread out to avoid this kind of swing (for example when in one of my scumgames we had a GF, a RB and a Tracker, we were all given one role each, not like a GF-RB-Tracker and two MGs.) I think it's common practice, isn't it?

[Dessew]

@singer: I meant that in that case for example if the roleblocker dies, scum loses the neighbour, too (as they are the same player.) And that situation might as well create a conftown, as well (see above.) In my experience scum PR are usuallyy spread out to avoid this kind of swing (for example when in one of my scumgames we had a GF, a RB and a Tracker, we were all given one role each, not like a GF-RB-Tracker and two MGs.) I think it's common practice, isn't it?

Just to clarify, so everyone will understand it. If the setup were Mafia Neighbour RB + MG (+ Town), the death of the RB of be much more detrimental to scum than that of the Goon (so it's swingy.) Scum wouldn't just lose half of itself (remember, the whole thing starts as "if there are two scum"), they also lose all their PRs and the flipping Neighbour might create a conftown player (and there's a BG, so the town-Neighbour's gonna stay for quite a time.) The swing can be reduced by distributing the roles more evenly (i.e.: Mafia RB + Mafia Neighbour.) NOTE: pops was a Goon. NOTE2: Drew was a Vig, so the setup's got just enough swing from town's side.

[Dessew]

Basically your argument for why this is a 2 scum setup is; if half the players die and town controls 4 of those deaths then it is unreasonable to have the game end in a scum victory if no scum have died.
And - out of a group of 4 unclaimed players I'm basing my speculation on the idea that one is scum and 3 are VT with thin reasoning behind it.

I don't really agree with either point.
So I don't agree with your conclusion.

That said, considering the way you guys went, I do agree that you're not the RBer.
Which is why I'm voting Cyber right now.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but Vigs are a) technically to execute PLs via NKs during the first (few) night(s) b) wild cards, I mean it can turn out in either way dependent on who gets the role. So I'd say that from 6 deads, 2 would be controlled by the full town, 2 by scum and 2 by a town individual, and these two not necessarily a) are scumhunt-driven b) reflect the opinion of any major groups of the town. It really makes a difference.
I didn't actually think there was anyone who thought we had any more PRs left unknown to the public. Tbh, I cannot really answer anyting to this second concern.

[Dessew]

I'm using it to make a towncase on myself. It'd stop me from being lynched and narrow most (all except for me?) players' scumpools.

[Dessew]

I can only laugh at this, seriously... :D
I recently managed to discuss economics and philosophy (to some extent) with ordinary blue-colar workers and I consider myself to be good at introducing relatively complex ideas to kindergardeners, yet I fail to get an outragously simple thought into Goofy's mind. Not once. It's impossible!

[Dessew]

I'll explain it later, when I'm not shaking from permanent giggle.
Goofy, you should teach people Buddhism, you'd be excellent at it, I'm serious.

[Dessew]

Well, singer what do you think about my reasoning about why there's only one scum left?
@Goofy: the shaking's gone (the giggling's not.) If there's one scum left, I cannot really be scum. You cannot narrow the lynchpool by lynching a townread, can you? (Not a real question, don't you answer it!)
I'm gonna be like Bob and go to sleep after the thread made me smile. (Although I'm not sure if he meant the comedy comment sarcastically, I don't, that's for sure.)

[Dessew]

I can only laugh at this, seriously... :D
I recently managed to discuss economics and philosophy (to some extent) with ordinary blue-colar workers and I consider myself to be good at introducing relatively complex ideas to kindergardeners, yet I fail to get an outragously simple thought into Goofy's mind. Not once. It's impossible!

I'll explain it later, when I'm not shaking from permanent giggle.
Goofy, you should teach people Buddhism, you'd be excellent at it, I'm serious.

Well, singer what do you think about my reasoning about why there's only one scum left?
@Goofy: the shaking's gone (the giggling's not.) If there's one scum left, I cannot really be scum. You cannot narrow the lynchpool by lynching a townread, can you? (Not a real question, don't you answer it!)
I'm gonna be like Bob and go to sleep after the thread made me smile. (Although I'm not sure if he meant the comedy comment sarcastically, I don't, that's for sure.)

Neighbor can also be considered a modifier under

Normal

rules, so that it may be combined with other power roles.

Giggle all you like, it doesn't make you less wrong.

I have to admit I enjoy this exchange much more than I should. I'm not even sure wether you're trying to make a point here and if you should be, what the point is supposed to be.
Okay, so again. There are several measures that can describe a game, one of them is swinginess. The more swing a game has, the more difficult it is to predict beforehand what's going to happen in the game. For instance, Vigs are a perfect example of roles amplifying swinginess. The game is going to be seriously affected by who gets the Vig role. Another example is making an overly powerful combined role while not giving anything anyone else. And before I forget to add, you generally want to reduce swing below a certain level.
Now, you believe that a Neighbour RB + MG scumteam is reasonable. It isn't, though, that's what singer and I had an exchange about not so long ago if you remember. It was on the previous page. Let us assume you're making sense, though.
Let's see what happens if the MG is lynched. Scum loses half of its team.
Let's see what happens if the Neighbour RB is lynched. Scum loses half of its team. Scum loses an extremely strong role. Scum loses a realtively weak role. If the other Neighbour is still alive, they get most likely conftown, who can be protected by the BG.
All this because it's Neighbour RB + MG instead of Neighbour + RB.

[Dessew]

Just outlining the possibilities. Now how about you hammer Singer

No, you're not outlining anything, except the facts that you didn't understand most of the last page. This post of yours also makes a good job with outlining it. I'm not gonna vote singer.

[Dessew]

I quite rarely use the word "impossible". The only instance that comes to my mind is the most recent about getting you to understand stuff. So, please, stop pretending that your posting made sense. If you have anything to say about the actual reasoning, go ahead. It'd a refresing change to discuss game stuff instead of you going "eeeeeh? I don't get it." :)
Pedit: I almost forgot to drectly answer your post: no, you didn't. Period. You're literally arguing thath there's something on this page that just isn't here. :D

[Dessew]

I am!
I mean, I'm pushing a towncase on myself, I've already commented on the singer case as a whole (no one has reascted, though.) Now I'm trying to encourage Goofy to say something less hollow than he usually does, trying to make him stop posting nosense and trying to get something into his head, preferably not a fist. (Okay, I'm doing the last two only for my own amusement.)
I haven't seen your case on me, though. I thought the "three or four days" were up. I'm not sure, though, I don't remember when I posted it. :D

[Dessew]

I cannot really say anything to PoE, and you cannot really say anything to mine, I take so it's a stalemate.
The towncase on me works because it's not based on what I posted. It's not based on anything I could possibly influence. It tells a lot that you're not attacking the case itself at all, but the fact that there's a case (using the word "attack" feels quite a stretch. You're not even saying anything this one unique instance, only general stuff.)

[Dessew]

I left the rest untouched because they're not worth mentioning. Goofy has brought up several times that Neighbours have no alignment conformation, just find a post where he seems to be very proud of himself of open the wiki.
Semi-active lurking? Well, yes, my posts were shit earlier, your posts are shit now, herpderp. If you want to make a point, don't just throw in a mafia phrase.
My PoE is public, it's comprised in two (2) posts of this day. The earlier one was the post that Squirrel didn't read, I haven't posted too much since then. Where's yours?

[Dessew]

And how the hell could a case on me (a viable lynch) be irrelevant, ffs?

[Dessew]

I meant these two posts.

LOL, I call people bad only when I'm grumpy. My mood's been suprisingly good since the weekend. PoE is fair enough, I was hoping a 'real' case, though. Anyway, I suspect a two-player scumteam because of balance: 1. There're potentially two NKs each night and no town role can reduce the number of people dying, yet we're only two on our own (see SK's comments.) 2. There's a similar setup on this forum with three scum, except that it's open, town is more powerful and there's one more player (it's in that mith-project.) That tells me that three scum would be scumsided.
@RC: I think it's quite the contrary. If I thought there were two scum left, I'd just vote the bigger wagon out of singer and Bob. I mean you're town, Squirrel is also most likely town, and Goofy's posting doesn't seem to be beneficial from a scum point of view (stolen argument from CD.) There are three viable lynches today, one of them is me, I'd rather not go into LyLo or MyLo with ths situation. The only solution is to hit scum today (as I don't really like the idea of me being lynched.)

@RC: "there wasn't a wagon at the time": but, but that's part of the point. It wasn't the first time pops attacked CD, if you look at his stances, there are actually quite a few flips and flops. The point is that if your buddy replaces and there's just little pressure on them, bussing makes no sense, especially if you had a nullread earlier. The pops-CD/singer interactions don't add up, and what else do you have against her? Iirc, there was that she had changed her vote very early from a viable wagon to a viable wagon or whatever and there's her playstyle, which wasn't addressed properly, just a "scum plays like this" "I play like this" type conversation leading to literally nowhere.

So, where's your PoE?

[Dessew]

wut?

[Dessew]

Are you claiming scum now or what? It doesn't make sense.

[Dessew]

In that case yay. Your wording was just a bit off(?). Last time you had two scumreads on Bob's wagon. It sure was sudden. (I hope so much I'm not making a complete idiot out of myself. You wouldn't play with food, would you?)

[Dessew]

In that case yay. Your wording was just a bit off(?). Last time you had two scumreads on Bob's wagon. It sure was sudden. (I hope so much I'm not making a complete idiot out of myself. You wouldn't play with food, would you?)

He's saying that you basically confirmed yourself as town by not hammering me. Not sure how he'd trust that since you could just not be bussing me for all he knows, but I'm not complaining!

Alright then!

I'm using it to make a towncase on myself. It'd stop me from being lynched and narrow most (all except for me?) players' scumpools.

If there is one scum left, then we have a mislynch to go, so people who are uncomfortable with you have the room the eliminate you from their pools, not sure what about that you didn't get.

It's like the third thing you claim to have stated. Get yourself together. You couldn't comprehend I was talking about. You could have made comments on the game instead of this awkward struggling for nothing.

[Dessew]

The more dedicated you are to trying to say it didn't make sense the more convinced I am that there are 2 left and ones you. You can't hammer singer because even with the bus shes the RB and it throws your argument away.

1. My argument is that there are two scum in total (so one left, here, I did the arithmetics for you :).) If we lynch scum and the game is still going on, my argument is dead.
2. You cannot narrow the lynchpool with lynching a townread. It is because that townread isn't in the lynchpool, goddammit.
I love how you discard my case without actually mentioning anything about it. Speaking about the actual case would be like, I don't know, discussing the game.

Here's a quiz for you, though, I hope you'll enjoy it.

What does the following quote mean?

If you convinced everyone that there was one left, lynching you would also narrow everyone's scumpool.

A

Giggle all you like, it doesn't make you less wrong.

B

Just outlining the possibilities.

C

I'm simply saying even with 1, it could be you, you are saying its impossible, when it's simply unlikely.

D

If there is one scum left, then we have a mislynch to go, so people who are uncomfortable with you have the room the eliminate you from their pools, not sure what about that you didn't get.

I'm intrigued by your answer.

[Dessew]

Welp, congrats. That BG fakeclaim was spot-on.

[Dessew]

I for one do not believe RC's claim. Bodyguard is an easy claim to fake for scum.

If RC's wagon falls apart, I am going to move my vote back to Cooldog, though I'm starting to feel there is only 1 scum in {RC, Cooldog}. VT claim/my suspicion of that slot would take precedence over suspicion I have for others at this point (who have not claimed), hence why my vote would go back there.

For dessew :roll:

Iirc, you posted that, then ad nauseam came, right? Mafia isn't about just the reads, you have to get people vote the player you want to lynch.

[Dessew]

I for one do not believe RC's claim. Bodyguard is an easy claim to fake for scum.

If RC's wagon falls apart, I am going to move my vote back to Cooldog, though I'm starting to feel there is only 1 scum in {RC, Cooldog}. VT claim/my suspicion of that slot would take precedence over suspicion I have for others at this point (who have not claimed), hence why my vote would go back there.

For dessew :roll:

Iirc, you posted that, then ad nauseam came, right? Mafia isn't about just the reads, you have to get people vote the player you want to lynch.

So it's my fault your play absolutely sucked this game? You're amazing dude...

Mafia 101...maybe you and bob should stop making fun of that now and finally admit I was right...

Scum get some credit for the win, but you two get much more in my opinion!

Your cases were horrible. How is BG easy to fake? Why were you scumreading, like, anyone (Bob, me &c.) What did you get from your VCA and how? Many queations left unanswered.
Think of about rummy or 5-card poker. Both games have a primary goal you can realize in an unstant: lose your cards / get the strongest possible hand. But in order to get any good at them you must improve other cometences: paying attention to the others' cards / manipulating the opponents. Your reads were good this game, wether out of pure luck or natural talent, I don't really care. But you have to sell your cases, wether you like it or not.
Also, stop putting words into my mouth, be happy that I had something constructive to say, unlike you.
I could be vulgar, but you've already mentioned your mother. ;)