Mini 1742: game over

[A Simple Plan]

Fuck me, I'm gonna confuse Taly and Talah way too much this game.

VOTE: Johnny

You know why.

[A Simple Plan]

Sorry for the delays, folks. Was out of town this weekend, and was stuck in traffic forever yesterday, so I just crashed in hopes of focusing in class.its been a long day, but I'm off tomorrow, so my mission is to contribute after getting some sleep.

[A Simple Plan]

This game is moving pretty nicely, and I haven't had the chance to catch up. I've read through the first page and a half or so, and all I've gotten to so far is this post, which strikes me as slightly odd.

very nice reasoning to make a wagon SO fast SO early ... So your saying we should lynch whoever we don't played before to just sort them out ...

2 votes is the start of a wagon, sure. Wagonning to get reads is fine until there's something better.

Yeah I'd lynch you at this point. Especially if you have nothing better to contribute than a counter-vote on RC, considering there have been several other things happening.

Edit: hi Titus btw. You scum this game? How am I gonna know...?

See, I understand the thought process, but I don't quite catch singling out Frozen for this, when all Titus had done was counter-vote, and when all I'd done was cast a vote for someone unrelated to anything going on. Why weren't we commented on for similar reasons?

The thing is, overall, I get where the push is coming from, but I don't like it, one for being on the first damn page and out of nothing, two for ignoring other players committing the same or similar offenses, and three for the insanely serious nature during what is clearly meant to be a joking, fun RVS.

[A Simple Plan]

Dammit, another what, seven pages? Alright, I'll see what I can do after my meeting tonight. Sorry for (again) prod dodging.

[A Simple Plan]

Okay, I'm simply going at ISOs at this point because fuck if I can keep up.

Reading over ABR, from a mostly gut/partially meta perspective, he reads as town. I've played with him once, and he replaced out shortly after I joined, but reading his play that game and this one (it was a newbie, I forget which), his general attitude toward the game seems to be similar. I will admit, he seems more invested in this one than a newbie game, but he seems to carry the same genuine scum-hunting mindset. 477 is a very sensible case on Ice in a concise manner. If I don't find anything better, I'll sheep the fuck outta this.

Titus vs RC is nothing new to me. Instinctively I think it's TownvTown, but I thought that before and was wrong. I'm leaning town on Titus more so than RC, but they're both town leans for me.

I'm struggling to read Johnny, but I don't think I want my vote on him as of right now.

UNVOTE: Johnny

The same can be said for Talah.

508 by Wickan reads rather town. I'm gonna need to dive deeper into that later because that's literally the only post of his Ive read since RVS.

As well, I need to take a genuine look at Taly, Ice, and Frozen, and hit that Johnny ISO better. For now, as mentioned in my ABR post, consider this post a pseudo-vote on ICE because I don't have a fucking clue what the VC is at and don't want to derp-hammer.

[A Simple Plan]

I can sort of see where Titus is coming from with

ABR gut-wise

Despite my disdain at being spoon-fed

self-meta

Reading over ABR, from a

mostly gut/partially meta

perspective, he reads as town.

Your

attitude at least seems the same

his general attitude toward the game seems to be similar.

HMMMMMMMM

When the fuck was this? Like I said, I mostly read ISOs- the majority of ABR, read part of Titus and RC, looked at a couple Johnny things, and read most of Page 21 simply because that's the page we were on. I liked your page 21 stuff so I agreed I wouldn't be voting you. I liked 508, and don't know anything about Wickan otherwise. This game is moving so fast I really haven't given much of a fuck about it.

Btw, my avatar is a reference to the Canadian rock group Simple Plan.

[A Simple Plan]

I liked your page 21 stuff so I agreed I wouldn't be voting you.

Who were you agreeing with?

Apparently everyone, according to the most recent vote count (and every prior one back to page two)

Should state right now that if Aspy is the person I remember he is he's super easy to vote

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=63042 this was our other game together, and should explain my 'you know why' vote early on.

[A Simple Plan]

what is exactly the case against ASP ? the way he was lying low?

It's that my ABR townread mimics Talah's wording almost exactly, which is a right shitty case argument if you ask me. Like I said, I didn't even read the posts mine mimics until Talah explicitly quoted them.

[A Simple Plan]

I don't remember agreeing with anyone that I'd be townread. So you'd be agreeing with folks who did, in fact, townread me.
Who are they and why do you agree aside from the one page you referenced?

I'm in panic-mode because I have a super-strong scumread on you because of that and the ABR read - I'm waiting for you to try to scum your way out of it - and I don't know how to interact with you meaningfully aside from the fact you just proved you're sheeping me for some reason.

I don't have a *strong* read on ABR but it's nuanced at least.

Why is it you read him exactly the same way I do?
Gut, meta, acting similarly this game to his towngame?

Are you saying you came about those three things exactly without reading my iso or skimming the thread, forming a townread on me and sheeping?

My turn to WTF when did that happen.

I didn't say I was town reading you. I didn't say I was agreeing with people who explicitly did. I said I was agreeing that I wasn't voting you today, which seems to mirror EVERYBODY because the last VC with a vote on you was on page two. You're putting words in my mouth.

When did I say I'm sheeping you? I'm reading ABR as town based upon Newbie 1606 in which he was town, and I see similarities in attitude and playstyle because I worked my ass off to win that game after practically screwing my partner over. He replaced out, but I made sure to read everything of his before BBT replaced in for him, especially before killing him, because if there was anything at all for me to make a case off of I wanted to use it and kill the other obvtown. The read features meta based upon that game, but is for the most part gut.

So in an essence, that's exactly what I'm saying, because I sure as hell haven't ISO'd you yet, and the amount of thread I've actually read outside of ISOs is the first two pages, and 21 to now. It just so happens we seem to be thinking alike in regard to ABR.

What are your reads right now ASP?

I can't see your try to figure the game out .
somehow I was even forgetting that your in the game at all ...

See 519. Admittedly I haven't read the whole game, and damned if I'm gonna if this is the response I get for actually posting reads.

[A Simple Plan]

Simple Plan's scummy in his own right for not forming his own read on ABR, but rather mimicking what had been said in-thread.

Additionally he's been lurking and not providing input, but giving excuses for not posting (like "whoa, such activity" etc) and when he does post - see the paragraph above. His reads aren't coming from his own unique viewpoint. This indicates to me that he know's who's town.

He also "agreed" not to vote me today with what he's now saying is basically thread-consensus - this was after I attacked him for the non-genuine ABR read. I don't buy that at all. Let's say I saw that Johhny had no votes basically all day and I was to say "I agreed not to vote Johnny". It doesn't make sense that I'd be talking about thread-consensus. I'd either be agreeing with Johnny (in the form of "okay okay back off and I won't vote you" - obviously something that primarily fits a scum perspective), or I'd be agreeing with specific people who have stated Johnny's town. Otherwise there's no reason to "agree" rather than just state your own read.

Now he's wandered off having done just enough flailing and backtracking to thow doubt on his obvious scum-behaviour.

More Simple Plan votes please.

You're ridiculous. Allow me to RE-reiterate.

1) I didn't mimic anybody. I made my own determination on ABR, and it just so happens we used similar wording. Thats what you're up in arms about. Freaking. Wording. I didn't read your ISO, I haven't yet read your posts before your page 21 material save for your sudden "miraculous discovery" on page one, and after a horrible tunnel case on me that's the most idiotic thing since Talladega Nights, I'm not sure I want to waste my time. Is everything else you've said this terrible and tunnelish?

2) you call it lurking. I call it having a life. I didn't see your posts for thirteen hours there either, buddy. Way to lurk. Or did you have something significant to do today too?

3) Again, you're obsessing over a WORD. ONE WORD. I agree that I'm not voting you. As in, nobody else is voting you, and I don't see anything scummy enough to vote you either. It's a word I use all the time. I agree with everbody else in this game, that you aren't worth a vote today! What's so hard to interpret about that? It directly parallels the thought of if EVERYBODY scumread a player, I could simply say I disagree, and that I'm not voting for that player. Are you seriously struggling to understand that, or are you just looking ing ANYTHING to use as a case on me? Either way, you need to wake the heck up off of your easy lynch mindset no do some REAL scum hunting.

I saved this a minute and then went back and deleted all the swearing, because this case is really bad, and it's getting me pretty ticked off. If I missed anything, I'm sorry, but it's a lot better than it would've been.

Deuces.

[A Simple Plan]

When are you going to catch up?

Why did you decide to ISO ABR first? Who are you going to ISO next?
And why are you up in arms that I find it suspicious you're saying you came to exactly the same conclusion that I did, when you're claiming to have not read my own posts to any significant degree?

And talking about that - claiming to have not read my posts to any significant degree - why are you confident that I'm not a player worth lynching today?

Why do you know the votecounts but not what I've posted?

On lurking and you trying to say me not posting for 13 hours (or whatever, I might not post for 2 days or longer and prod-dodge, it's not the point) - your ISO now consists of 10 posts, most of them useless except as far as making excuses and defending yourself. Fully half of them have arrived in the last 24 hours and have been in response to me attacking you. Don't you think that's a good thing that I've motivated you enough to - actually post?

-When I have more time, I will catch up more thoroughly. I have three school projects due in the next three days and a butt load of family stuff to deal with.

-I felt ABR would be one of the easier players to get a read on based upon ISO alone. I worked my ass off in Newb 1606, and figured any sort of similarities here in terms of playstyle and attitude toward the game would be indicative moreso of town than a lot of people. I never seem to read RC right, Johnny was an enigma in my last game with him so it's basically square one again, and I've figured out by this point that if I'm town-reading Titus I'm usually wrong, and when I'm scum-reading Titus I don't trust myself because more often than not Titus looks town AF. I haven't played with the other half of the game before.

-I listed several players back on 519. I think my big focus needs to be Wickan, as my counter-wagon, and IceNinja, the player ABR was voting prior to his Wickan vote. I want to see if I find myself reading Ice similarly. (And yes, I'm purposefully avoiding the A word, because fuck me if I'm getting into that crap again)

- I read most of the stuff on page 21. I liked your posting on that page. One of the ones that stands out most to me is 512. It backs up your read and prompts Wickan to explain his own. In addition, 505 is a good argument. With BOTH Titus and ABR on someone, I wouldn't be surprised if they're right, unless one of them is scum and is fooling the majority of us.

-As I've specified, I know where the ISO button is, and I know how to ISO the mod. It's not hard to watch the vote count progress.

-Fair enough in regard to activity. I've had a busy week, sue me.

Actually, don't. I don't have time to go to court.

[A Simple Plan]

The most recent vote count before my catchup post, according to the ISO, was page 19. I didn't look to see who voted or unvoted who in those last two pages. I read 21, but none of 19 or 20 save for that vote count. For all I knew, there had been X number of ICE votes on 19/20 and mine would've been hammer.

[A Simple Plan]

Spoiler: so, I ISO'd Wickan...

^This seems like it's trying way, way too hard to read into the fifth game post in the thread.

VOTE: talah

Terrible. I understand your perspective, but my POV is that he's getting the game away from RVS hella quick by generating discussion. That's NOT scum.

Well, usually I'm *that* guy that goes in deep on the first page or two but looks like we've got someone already doing it for me. Awesome. Gives me a chance to say "hello" to the handful of players here who I recognize from the old days.

Vote Wickan

. How is it scum motivated to push for information gathering regardless of what page it is?

Scum isn't necessarily. I interpreted that post by Talah as being completely serious, and to the extent it was serious I found it to be trying to find information where there was pretty clearly none. It felt to me like making a mountain out of a molehill.

@talah: I interpreted the townread offer by Titus to be completely in jest. Just normal mafia jabbering. It's not clear to me that that in particular points either way.

I clearly said I have no problems with your

[talah's]

vote. your tone in the other hand , don't seems like town

This is just plain not true. You did have problems with talah's vote; you thought (like I did) that they were making a serious vote off of obviously RVS/spam material (cf 15 22). I dislike that you try to cover this up.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

I can't understand what the heck this is. It looks like you're making a case on Frozen, and then voting RC with no explanation.

In retrospect, 39 wasn't very pleasant either.

Wickan, why do you call out FA for covering up her issue with talah but then you vote on RC? I'm not getting a game-solve vibe from you?

Those are two separate issues. The former I found suspicious, the latter was a vote aimed at RC's weak jump in of "I think FA is town" without any further commentary or a shift in his vote. The two aren't related. I was expressing suspicion of FA, but greater suspicion of RC.

@Johnny: I'm not "twisting" RC's vote at all. RC's response to the whole talah-FA back and forth was to just jump in and say "I like FA for town atm <3"

and leave his vote there anyway.

Yes, I'm aware that that was an RVS vote, but the combination seemed both unhelpful and anti-town.

ICE: What surprises you about how my wagon formed? I actually think it seemed quite natural. I grant that the weirdest part was Taly's jumping off before I even responded, but I didn't find any of the actual votes unusual at all.

Taly's jump, however, does feel bad, as it removed a significant amount of pressure from me before I had even responded. Even if ICE's post had set off alarm bells, I would've expected him to just wait. That's unhelpful to town, but I'm not quite sure why it's scum.

This post... Geez, where do I start? I shipped a little bit that was irrelevant to my point, but really? Your problem is with RC's lack of commentary, so you cast a

naked vote

. Is it scummy, or not? Your vote suggests it is, but your vote is therefore scummy itself. It should not have required prompting to explain that vote.

The response to ICE is calm and collected, and I think that's fairly pro town, contrary to the rest of the post, and I like the points made about Taly here, though it is potentially setting up a vote for later.

110 is ugly. In the span of that post, Taly a) states that he cannot see how ICE's thought process is town, but thinks that ICE is misguided town; b) claims that his vote on me was meant for pressure, yet doesn't really have an explanation for why he took it off before that pressure did anything; c) argues that his jump on my wagon was definitely not opportunistic; d) claims to "get into a lot of TvT in games; and e) follows along with ICE's hedge on reading Johnny. This looks like a combination of trying to paint his interaction with ICE as town v town and follow along with ICE's other suspicions.

VOTE: Taly

@FA: ICENinja isn't pushing me. Voting for me yes, but pushing me no. I think the wagon on me was normal D1 pressure, which tapered off when Taly decided to prematurely abandon it.

As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The question in 78 was meant 100% seriously. The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum. But from my perspective, that obviously doesn't make sense. I was wondering whether you would notice that Taly's unvote implied that (which you did).

In short, it wasn't meant as a defense of Taly. It was a genuine question, as his unvote made no sense to me from a town

or

scum perspective.

So is Taly's unvote scummy or not? This post is indecisive on the matter because point b paints it as scummy in the first paragraph, but 78 claims it had no scummy motivation for happening. In addition, what happened to RC?

And I am pointedly refusing to answer the question.

Fair. It was a terrible question. Any answer would've been incredibly scummy.

I'm very strongly scum reading Wickan right now. I'm quite happy with my vote. This is based on:
-A chain of logic that a townie would basically never have,

Well, I did.

-His original vote of RC that wasn't explained until someone ELSE mentioned it (highly realistic scumpair of Wickan and Titus, probably even more likely than Taly),

I mean, are you saying that I voted RC for no reason? And only came up with that reason later? Yes, I didn't explain it at the time; I thought it an obvious reference to the post he had just made.

-It's small, but he did seem to oppose early discussion with his first vote.

It wasn't opposing early discussion so much as thinking that talah was really, really reaching with that logic.

This post radiates of "fuck you, I'm town." I don't like the response re: RC either, because it's one of those things where he goes "look, I voted him, he must be scum! Go figure out why!" There's only one player I can think of who ever does this consistently as town, and he's constantly scum-read for it. As town, there shouldn't be a reason to naked-vote. Also, is reaching with logic scummy? I only ask because a lot of your logic throughout your ISO seems to be reaching, such as 230 I doubt you've played with RC before if you think that's particularly scummy of him, or 232. If you're scum, you know the motivation behind your actions, and it becomes innately harder to fabricate town-motivated content, whereas if you're town, it's clear what to do and what to look for, but harder to get into the mindset of scum, because you're

not

.

Wickan

- why drop your vote on RC without saying anything about a changed read?

Because it hadn't.

@Wickan I think where that falls apart in my head is that ICE doesn't really seem a hugely valuable buddy. At least not so far.

Nobody is really expressing suspicion there (myself included). Seems a perfectly fine D1 buddy to me.

Then why did your only post mentioning him at all between 90 and 213

@Johnny: let's explore your alternatives to me (obviously I'm your number 1, but I'm curious about 2)

Do you think RC's continuous bringing up of his meta is at all scummy?

Do you think ICE's association tell thing is productive?

Did you actually gain anything from these questions? I didn't really see any sort of follow-up either. What is your read on Johnny?

I'm actually scumreading titus and wiccon as I said before. As I said I feel a weird connection between them.

But their already under pressure and I'm analysing people's reaction about them. I'll post my reads later today (don't have the time right now)

All the more reason to add to the pressure though. If you're suspicious, why would you sit back and let other people handle it? Wouldn't the townie thing to do be to add pressure? It looks like you just want to have other people do the dirty work, so that you can stay above the fray.

This is... Overly poor. What could you possibly gain from these questions? It's like calling him scum without calling him scum. Did you benefit from this at all? If so, explain what you got from these "questions", because I don't see how things in a "wouldn't it be better..." Sort of manner is going to gain information. It's leading.

But ICE has taken plenty of stands. He thinks I'm scum paired with one of you or Taly. And he's danced w/ RC about meta and us about "how do scum vs town think."

So is your belief that RC is scum reliant on ICE also being scum?

Okay, I understand. But my question is still there. You're saying that RC is avoiding sorting ICE and saying that that's scummy. But does that also rely on ICE being scum? If we knew for a fact that ICE was town, would that still be problematic??

Again, what did you gain from these questions?

about me pressuring you - I voted you to see your reaction and it was awful. you started accusing others when people started asking you questions. this was weird.

I started accusing others of being scum? Yes, yes I did. That is the game. Do you think that I did so in a particularly suspicious manner, and if so, why?

I read your only meta town game in site and this is not like it all.

I have one game from four months ago. I would argue you're reading way too much into one game.
(also, I would argue that there's plenty of continuity in my town playstyle: I sucked in that game and am doing poorly here )

I asked you a question about the ones your scum reading in your wagon and you refused to answer.

I think I've basically given my thoughts about all players (well, not Simple Plan, but there's nothing there).

Unsure of how to read ABR's 341....

I think the easiest way to read it is on its face: an admission from Albert that he's not going to put much effort into this game. I honestly don't see that as particularly alignment-neutral either way though.

1) Why did you not comment on what was being said about you, choosing instead to redirect? Ignoring concerns is not the way to go.
2) self-meta is scummy. You're basically saying that because people scum-read you, you have to be town, and that's some serious crap.
3) have your reads at all changed? Has Taly done anything more recently than 110 to validate your read further, or was it just early-game that made you suspicious?
4) it's an Albert tell. I can't quite understand- are you saying it is or is not alignment indicative?

Short case: Taly's 110, his attempts to insist that his discussion w/ you were TvT and his buddying up to you, and going all the way back to his unvote on me early on, removing pressure. Although he does seem to have dropped the townread on you recently (not sure why, as I'm not sure what you've done differently that prompted it). (Taly will promptly dispute that he ever had a townread on you, but I honestly don't know how else to read 110)

See also my 230 for the short case on RC (although slightly out of date, I think most of it still holds)

Also @ICE: see my question above on the Titus wagon. Is it primarily driven by Titus not explaining her reads?

I appreciate the shortened versions of cases and explanations for your reads, but I disagree with 230- that's definitely how RC plays as town. Again, though, what do you hope to gain from this question?

And for the record, I absolutely 100% still believe that 110 was an attempt to buddy ICE. From the "I get in a lot of TvTs, especially D1" to trying to placate ICE's concerns to agreeing with his reads. It all looks like an attempt to deflect ICE's attention away from you and to other people.

Okay. Anything since then that you find scummy about Taly, or is that scum read based solely off of that one post?

I don't like how Wickan is approaching the game trying to find cracks,

it feels like he's patting around the dark for the path of least resistance to a mislynch.

I honestly don't know what this means.

To be precise, the bolded part makes no sense to me.

The latter half I understand, and I guess my only response is "no"

This sort of response isn't really necessary. No what? No you're not searching for cracks in the game? It reads like you are. No you're not searching for the path of least resistance to a mislynch? Fair. You're tunneling the fuck outta Taly, who to the best I can tell is not in today's lynch pool.

Also I actually agree. If you have ABR and Titus as your top townreads you should be voting Ice and I don't know why you would need wining and dining to make that decision.

I really don't see that that follows at all. Just because they're my townreads doesn't mean I agree with them on everything.

Make the case for why ICE is scummy.

Again, I like this post. It feels town in nature because it defends your own reads, and explains a reasoning for not wanting to follow them on a wagon in the same manner, though Titus offers reasoning for the ICE scum read in 218 and Talah does a much more comprehensive job in 408, enough so that I'd sheep it. It bothers me that you didn't see any sort of case on ICE whatsoever to the point of asking it be made again.

Summary: Laced with questions that aren't exactly beneficial and terrible posts- features a horrible self-meta assessment, tunneling, and early problems explaining his vote. I can definitely see town motivation slipping in through some of his posts, but I'm leaning scum overall, and I'm okay with this wagon.

[A Simple Plan]

Spoiler: so, I ISO'd Wickan...

^This seems like it's trying way, way too hard to read into the fifth game post in the thread.

VOTE: talah

Terrible. I understand your perspective, but my POV is that he's getting the game away from RVS hella quick by generating discussion. That's NOT scum.

Well, usually I'm *that* guy that goes in deep on the first page or two but looks like we've got someone already doing it for me. Awesome. Gives me a chance to say "hello" to the handful of players here who I recognize from the old days.

Vote Wickan

. How is it scum motivated to push for information gathering regardless of what page it is?

Scum isn't necessarily. I interpreted that post by Talah as being completely serious, and to the extent it was serious I found it to be trying to find information where there was pretty clearly none. It felt to me like making a mountain out of a molehill.

@talah: I interpreted the townread offer by Titus to be completely in jest. Just normal mafia jabbering. It's not clear to me that that in particular points either way.

I clearly said I have no problems with your

[talah's]

vote. your tone in the other hand , don't seems like town

This is just plain not true. You did have problems with talah's vote; you thought (like I did) that they were making a serious vote off of obviously RVS/spam material (cf 15 22). I dislike that you try to cover this up.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

I can't understand what the heck this is. It looks like you're making a case on Frozen, and then voting RC with no explanation.

In retrospect, 39 wasn't very pleasant either.

Wickan, why do you call out FA for covering up her issue with talah but then you vote on RC? I'm not getting a game-solve vibe from you?

Those are two separate issues. The former I found suspicious, the latter was a vote aimed at RC's weak jump in of "I think FA is town" without any further commentary or a shift in his vote. The two aren't related. I was expressing suspicion of FA, but greater suspicion of RC.

@Johnny: I'm not "twisting" RC's vote at all. RC's response to the whole talah-FA back and forth was to just jump in and say "I like FA for town atm <3"

and leave his vote there anyway.

Yes, I'm aware that that was an RVS vote, but the combination seemed both unhelpful and anti-town.

ICE: What surprises you about how my wagon formed? I actually think it seemed quite natural. I grant that the weirdest part was Taly's jumping off before I even responded, but I didn't find any of the actual votes unusual at all.

Taly's jump, however, does feel bad, as it removed a significant amount of pressure from me before I had even responded. Even if ICE's post had set off alarm bells, I would've expected him to just wait. That's unhelpful to town, but I'm not quite sure why it's scum.

This post... Geez, where do I start? I shipped a little bit that was irrelevant to my point, but really? Your problem is with RC's lack of commentary, so you cast a

naked vote

. Is it scummy, or not? Your vote suggests it is, but your vote is therefore scummy itself. It should not have required prompting to explain that vote.

The response to ICE is calm and collected, and I think that's fairly pro town, contrary to the rest of the post, and I like the points made about Taly here, though it is potentially setting up a vote for later.

110 is ugly. In the span of that post, Taly a) states that he cannot see how ICE's thought process is town, but thinks that ICE is misguided town; b) claims that his vote on me was meant for pressure, yet doesn't really have an explanation for why he took it off before that pressure did anything; c) argues that his jump on my wagon was definitely not opportunistic; d) claims to "get into a lot of TvT in games; and e) follows along with ICE's hedge on reading Johnny. This looks like a combination of trying to paint his interaction with ICE as town v town and follow along with ICE's other suspicions.

VOTE: Taly

@FA: ICENinja isn't pushing me. Voting for me yes, but pushing me no. I think the wagon on me was normal D1 pressure, which tapered off when Taly decided to prematurely abandon it.

As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The question in 78 was meant 100% seriously. The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum. But from my perspective, that obviously doesn't make sense. I was wondering whether you would notice that Taly's unvote implied that (which you did).

In short, it wasn't meant as a defense of Taly. It was a genuine question, as his unvote made no sense to me from a town

or

scum perspective.

So is Taly's unvote scummy or not? This post is indecisive on the matter because point b paints it as scummy in the first paragraph, but 78 claims it had no scummy motivation for happening. In addition, what happened to RC?

And I am pointedly refusing to answer the question.

Fair. It was a terrible question. Any answer would've been incredibly scummy.

I'm very strongly scum reading Wickan right now. I'm quite happy with my vote. This is based on:
-A chain of logic that a townie would basically never have,

Well, I did.

-His original vote of RC that wasn't explained until someone ELSE mentioned it (highly realistic scumpair of Wickan and Titus, probably even more likely than Taly),

I mean, are you saying that I voted RC for no reason? And only came up with that reason later? Yes, I didn't explain it at the time; I thought it an obvious reference to the post he had just made.

-It's small, but he did seem to oppose early discussion with his first vote.

It wasn't opposing early discussion so much as thinking that talah was really, really reaching with that logic.

This post radiates of "fuck you, I'm town." I don't like the response re: RC either, because it's one of those things where he goes "look, I voted him, he must be scum! Go figure out why!" There's only one player I can think of who ever does this consistently as town, and he's constantly scum-read for it. As town, there shouldn't be a reason to naked-vote. Also, is reaching with logic scummy? I only ask because a lot of your logic throughout your ISO seems to be reaching, such as 230 I doubt you've played with RC before if you think that's particularly scummy of him, or 232. If you're scum, you know the motivation behind your actions, and it becomes innately harder to fabricate town-motivated content, whereas if you're town, it's clear what to do and what to look for, but harder to get into the mindset of scum, because you're

not

.

Wickan

- why drop your vote on RC without saying anything about a changed read?

Because it hadn't.

@Wickan I think where that falls apart in my head is that ICE doesn't really seem a hugely valuable buddy. At least not so far.

Nobody is really expressing suspicion there (myself included). Seems a perfectly fine D1 buddy to me.

Then why did your only post mentioning him at all between 90 and 213

@Johnny: let's explore your alternatives to me (obviously I'm your number 1, but I'm curious about 2)

Do you think RC's continuous bringing up of his meta is at all scummy?

Do you think ICE's association tell thing is productive?

Did you actually gain anything from these questions? I didn't really see any sort of follow-up either. What is your read on Johnny?

I'm actually scumreading titus and wiccon as I said before. As I said I feel a weird connection between them.

But their already under pressure and I'm analysing people's reaction about them. I'll post my reads later today (don't have the time right now)

All the more reason to add to the pressure though. If you're suspicious, why would you sit back and let other people handle it? Wouldn't the townie thing to do be to add pressure? It looks like you just want to have other people do the dirty work, so that you can stay above the fray.

This is... Overly poor. What could you possibly gain from these questions? It's like calling him scum without calling him scum. Did you benefit from this at all? If so, explain what you got from these "questions", because I don't see how things in a "wouldn't it be better..." Sort of manner is going to gain information. It's leading.

But ICE has taken plenty of stands. He thinks I'm scum paired with one of you or Taly. And he's danced w/ RC about meta and us about "how do scum vs town think."

So is your belief that RC is scum reliant on ICE also being scum?

Okay, I understand. But my question is still there. You're saying that RC is avoiding sorting ICE and saying that that's scummy. But does that also rely on ICE being scum? If we knew for a fact that ICE was town, would that still be problematic??

Again, what did you gain from these questions?

about me pressuring you - I voted you to see your reaction and it was awful. you started accusing others when people started asking you questions. this was weird.

I started accusing others of being scum? Yes, yes I did. That is the game. Do you think that I did so in a particularly suspicious manner, and if so, why?

I read your only meta town game in site and this is not like it all.

I have one game from four months ago. I would argue you're reading way too much into one game.
(also, I would argue that there's plenty of continuity in my town playstyle: I sucked in that game and am doing poorly here )

I asked you a question about the ones your scum reading in your wagon and you refused to answer.

I think I've basically given my thoughts about all players (well, not Simple Plan, but there's nothing there).

Unsure of how to read ABR's 341....

I think the easiest way to read it is on its face: an admission from Albert that he's not going to put much effort into this game. I honestly don't see that as particularly alignment-neutral either way though.

1) Why did you not comment on what was being said about you, choosing instead to redirect? Ignoring concerns is not the way to go.
2) self-meta is scummy. You're basically saying that because people scum-read you, you have to be town, and that's some serious crap.
3) have your reads at all changed? Has Taly done anything more recently than 110 to validate your read further, or was it just early-game that made you suspicious?
4) it's an Albert tell. I can't quite understand- are you saying it is or is not alignment indicative?

Short case: Taly's 110, his attempts to insist that his discussion w/ you were TvT and his buddying up to you, and going all the way back to his unvote on me early on, removing pressure. Although he does seem to have dropped the townread on you recently (not sure why, as I'm not sure what you've done differently that prompted it). (Taly will promptly dispute that he ever had a townread on you, but I honestly don't know how else to read 110)

See also my 230 for the short case on RC (although slightly out of date, I think most of it still holds)

Also @ICE: see my question above on the Titus wagon. Is it primarily driven by Titus not explaining her reads?

I appreciate the shortened versions of cases and explanations for your reads, but I disagree with 230- that's definitely how RC plays as town. Again, though, what do you hope to gain from this question?

And for the record, I absolutely 100% still believe that 110 was an attempt to buddy ICE. From the "I get in a lot of TvTs, especially D1" to trying to placate ICE's concerns to agreeing with his reads. It all looks like an attempt to deflect ICE's attention away from you and to other people.

Okay. Anything since then that you find scummy about Taly, or is that scum read based solely off of that one post?

I don't like how Wickan is approaching the game trying to find cracks,

it feels like he's patting around the dark for the path of least resistance to a mislynch.

I honestly don't know what this means.

To be precise, the bolded part makes no sense to me.

The latter half I understand, and I guess my only response is "no"

This sort of response isn't really necessary. No what? No you're not searching for cracks in the game? It reads like you are. No you're not searching for the path of least resistance to a mislynch? Fair. You're tunneling the fuck outta Taly, who to the best I can tell is not in today's lynch pool.

Also I actually agree. If you have ABR and Titus as your top townreads you should be voting Ice and I don't know why you would need wining and dining to make that decision.

I really don't see that that follows at all. Just because they're my townreads doesn't mean I agree with them on everything.

Make the case for why ICE is scummy.

Again, I like this post. It feels town in nature because it defends your own reads, and explains a reasoning for not wanting to follow them on a wagon in the same manner, though Titus offers reasoning for the ICE scum read in 218 and Talah does a much more comprehensive job in 408, enough so that I'd sheep it. It bothers me that you didn't see any sort of case on ICE whatsoever to the point of asking it be made again.

Summary: Laced with questions that aren't exactly beneficial and terrible posts- features a horrible self-meta assessment, tunneling, and early problems explaining his vote. I can definitely see town motivation slipping in through some of his posts, but I'm leaning scum overall, and I'm okay with this wagon.

See above for main reasoning. Unless I missed it, Wickan ignored it completely. This is what I did find though..

Wickan and ASS need to pick wagons.

I don't like ASP or Titus wagons though.

Care to explain why?

Not Voting: Johnny, Titus, Albert
Could Be Talked Into Voting, But I Wouldn't Be Happy: ICE, Frozen, Talah
Happy To Vote: Taly, RC
I Have No Thoughts: A Simple Plan

Shift ASP up to "Not Voting"

Over one post of content? What makes me so incredibly town from one post?

VOTE: Wickan

L-1. I didn't get any sort of reaction I was hoping for. Maybe some answers, a response other than town-reading me... Something. Even others' "why is he suddenly doing this now" is better than "okay that's town." I get it, y'all are gonna call it opportunistic. So be it. I had reason to vote earlier, didn't get the response to my case I was hoping... L-1

[A Simple Plan]

UNVOTE:
Okay, so the hider is a thing.

I think this hider pool idea is rather dumb. Our plan needs to be to have him target one of the most suspicious players, the ones who haven't contributed as much and don't appear to. It leads to three scenarios:
1) target is scum, Wickan dies, and scum gets two deaths in exchange for a guaranteed lynch.
2) target is town, scum kills target, but get two less-than-stellar kills instead.
3) target is town, and scum targets someone else, allowing for a presumably confirmed townie pair in the game and drastically narrows down the suspect pool for D2.

ANY WAY we look at it, worst case scenario is 7p tomorrow without a confirmed scum but much greater opportunity to figure the scum team out. Better possibilities, only one death plus two confirmed townies, or even a confirmed scum, and assuming target is town, it creates a tough decision for scum to deal with.

Alternatively, what do we get from the three-player hider pool? It creates WIFOM for scum, but WIFOM for town the following day if he dies because we can't be sure if he targeted town and died due to the scum kill or targeted scum. A definite target at least gives us information.

Since I was asked, to sum it up, I'm not 100% sure in Wickan's claim, but it bought him a day.
Not Lynching: Johnny, ABR, Wickan
Give me a case and it's possible: ICE, RC, Talah, Titus (though those last two will need to be damn good cases)
Potentially Scum (would lynch): Taly, FA

I've been reading since page 21, and I think I've caught on with a Johnny tell. Wickan I won't lynch due to his claim, and I've been confident in my ABR townread since I ISO'd him around page 21, and I haven't seen anything to change that.

P-edit: I might be willing to lynch RC based off of that post about 20 minutes ago. This tunnel is ridiculous.

[A Simple Plan]

Then go with the free-for-all. If we do a hider pool like that, it offers us the same chance at information while increasing the chance scum picks your target and kills both of you.

[A Simple Plan]

Wickan [7] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Frozen, ABR, ASP}
Johnny [7] {Titus, talah, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ICE, ASP}
ABR [3] {Titus, Wickan, ASP}
talah [2] {Titus, ICE}
Titus [5] {talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ABR}
Taly [3] {talah, Johnny, Wickan}
RC [2] {Frozen, ABR}

Preference for lynch - nominate ONE only:

talah [1] {Frozen, ABR, RC}
Ice [1] {Titus}
ASP [3] {talah, Johnny, Taly}
RC [1] {Wickan}
Taly [1] {ASP}

I think that's everyone?

[A Simple Plan]

Wickan [7] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Frozen, ABR, ASP}
Johnny [7] {Titus, talah, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ICE, ASP}
ABR [3] {Titus, Wickan, ASP}
talah [2] {Titus, ICE}
Titus [5] {talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ABR}
Taly [3] {talah, Johnny, Wickan}
RC [2] {Frozen, ABR}

Preference for lynch - nominate ONE only:

talah [1] {Frozen, ABR, RC}
Ice [1] {Titus, ASP}
ASP [3] {talah, Johnny, Taly}
RC [1] {Wickan}

I think that's everyone?

Actually, I changed my mind after reading 1065. Taly is probably town...

[A Simple Plan]

I'm kinda liking this Frozen argument by Talah.

Tell me again why we're on Talah today? I seriously don't see this hitting scum, and I'm not sure I want to contribute. Nonetheless, I'm going to be out of town tomorrow until around this time. If a hammer hasn't happened or an alternate decision hasn't been made, I'll hammer.

[A Simple Plan]

Hmmm... Let's go with this.

VOTE: Jeanne

The whole bad play vs scummy play thing is pretty terrible. Tunneling is literally all RC does, and that's the basis of the case.

[A Simple Plan]

Is that based just on Jeanne, or on ICE as well?

Ice didn't do anything noticeably town that I remember, and this tipped the scale.

Well, I receive much flak on my games for playing bad as town and he receives free pass on that?

He shouldn't receive a free pass, no, but bad town play and scum play are differ and you're pushing RC for something that is notoriously town in his meta, and in the process following a (former) scumread of someone who seems almost universally townread in Titus. (Titus labeled RC town in 1208).

Hmmm... Let's go with this.

VOTE: Jeanne

The whole bad play vs scummy play thing is pretty terrible. Tunneling is literally all RC does, and that's the basis of the case.

You realize you're doing the same thing you're voting her for

In fact, I'm not. RC's tunnel on Titus was poor, but is not scummy, yet Jeanne is making it out to be. She is trying to take an easy target that multiple people have expressed negative thoughts about with terrible logic. If pushing an easy target upon replacing in isn't scummy, I'd like you to define for me what the hell is.

[A Simple Plan]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that we've been through this about RC, and not only is you case weak and inaccurate, but in targeting someone for the same reasons he's been targeted all game, when it is in fact his town play to do what he's doing, you're trying to score an easy mislynch on him for anti town play that's not even scum. Admitting you know the difference and are doing so anyway makes it worse.

[A Simple Plan]

How about this- it's been almost sixty pages. Town has enough info for this day phase, and I'm sick and fucking tired of it. If y'all wanna lynch me, go right the hell ahead- you won't gain nearly as much info from my lynch as you would others (Might I interest you in that ICE/Jeanne slot? Or I'll even compromise with Frozen Angel. The pool is literally myself, Jeanne, Frozen Angel, and RC in my eyes.) but it'll end this eternal day phase and actually do SOMEthing.

[A Simple Plan]

SP, what are your thoughts on talah?

Null. Earlier interactions I had- where Talah pushed me to be active and followed up on my comments when questions arose, made me think town, but your case is compelling, especially the self-vote meta.

[A Simple Plan]

How about this- it's been almost sixty pages. Town has enough info for this day phase, and I'm sick and fucking tired of it. If y'all wanna lynch me, go right the hell ahead- you won't gain nearly as much info from my lynch as you would others (Might I interest you in that ICE/Jeanne slot? Or I'll even compromise with Frozen Angel. The pool is literally myself, Jeanne, Frozen Angel, and RC in my eyes.) but it'll end this eternal day phase and actually do SOMEthing.

Vote jeanne then.

Literally any of those I am fine with.

I did. I started the damn Jeanne wagon, and it's my preferred wagon.

But oh well. This day phase was ridiculous.

P-Edit: actually, I think RC is at L-1. I still don't want a quick hammer.

[A Simple Plan]

Well, that's all the proof I needed RC is town. (And yes, I saw Jeanne's unvote before declaring L-1 to get reactions. But that reaction RC gave was town, so I say it worked)

I don't like either of these votes, but I suppose my read on Talah is an effective null based on Taly's case and my own assessment, whereas Titus is almost at an "IDC-Town" sort of read, that townie that's lost interest so bad she's voting herself... I'm not voting Titus today.

Where does everyone stand on Frozen Angel? I'm curious why they've BEEN voting for Talah throughout this ordeal, when Taly isn't even voting there after that decent case was made.