***Mini Normal 1744 - Country Music Mafia - Game Over***

[acryon]

VOTE: acryon

For not confirming.

Confirmed now

[acryon]

Also Keyser is Town. Dwylee VI? Sheeping Keyser on RolePlay because we apparently think alike.

VOTE: RolePlay25

[acryon]

And I am getting a reaction out of you, arent I, neumune? But sometimes people might be like "Wtf I didnt even do anything this alwayd happens when I am scum!" or something. You dont need to be rude just because I decided to reaction test a little.

I'm with you here.

Also Keyser is Town. Dwylee VI? Sheeping Keyser on RolePlay because we apparently think alike.

VOTE: RolePlay25

r u srs rn

Yup. Also why do you seem to have a problem with putting someone to L-1 this early? Seems solid trains are good for reactions, no?

[acryon]

What part of the post that I made do you agree with, acryon?

Testing for reactions. I am (in most cases) for the open flow of accusations and questioning. Even a faulty line of questioning could illicit a valuable response, as long as it's always taken with a grain of salt.

[acryon]

Again, Roleplay's definitely on the top of my scumlist. Again, I'll wait for him to explain himself before I vote (random bandwagons are dumb).

What is "OMGUS"?

Dwlee is a villain, and must certainly die! For he has revealed it through his actions. He votes early, showing that he is happy to throw his vote around, but then when I behave what he believes is oddly, he turns to golden009 to ask golden009 what he thinks. But does he act when golden009 helps confirm his suspicions? No! He acts only when I take action first.

Villains cannot kill good guys without the support of other good guys! Dwlee is not seeking to learn if I am a villain, he is seeking to see if there is support for killing me! Dwlee is most certainly a hideous villain, and should be exiled from this town.

I'm sorry, what?
VOTE: RolePlay25

I'm not sure I buy you being convinced enough by that one post to place your vote. You didn't even ask a real question in response either. Seems like a textbook chainsaw defense actually.

VOTE: golden009

[acryon]

For reactions. Youd be surprised at how many people make bah posts. Like town might say "Why would you lynch me I was a cop!!!" or something.

I would be surprised, considering that I've never really seen that work.

Well, as you said, you're rusty right? Can't use your rustyness as a reason to not look into your posts but then expect your ideas of what works and what doesn't to be correct.

[acryon]

For reactions. Youd be surprised at how many people make bah posts. Like town might say "Why would you lynch me I was a cop!!!" or something.

I would be surprised, considering that I've never really seen that work.

Well, as you said, you're rusty right? Can't use your rustyness as a reason to not look into your posts but then expect your ideas of what works and what doesn't to be correct.

Fair enough. I just wouldn't have expected that part of the meta to change.

Now what part of RolePlayer's post promtped your vote? And what was your problem with it?

[acryon]

Apparently he has other accounts that have a game or two on them, but probably not many. I personally am thinking he is a noob town right now.

I don't think you can really describe him as noob town when he says things like "I would be surprised, considering that I've never really seen that work" and "I just wouldn't have expected that part of the meta to change." His total experience may be lower than some, but he is not a noob.

[acryon]

@golden009
I don't like that you are dodging me. To make things easier than having to search, my question for you was what part of RolePlayer's post prompted your vote? And what was your problem with it?

Overall, (and I'm echoing others here) I'm not sure why anyone would believe any of these soft or hard-claims; they all seem very clearly to be joking and I feel there are two types of people that would lend credence to the claims: 1) inattentive town or 2) scum feigning participation.

golden in 25 re: RolePlayer sort of claiming VT.
supercool898 in 80/83 believing dwylee was really claiming doctor.

Of these two, I feel like golden009 is the second type and supercool is the first type. While supercool is wrong on a lot of the things he is saying, it feels more uninformed/noob than nefarious.

I like: dwylee (I take back the VI comment), bji, and keyser. Still working on many of the others, although specifically I would like to see RC vig'd sooner rather than later since it's a slot that will kill us if we were to get to lylo and I'd rather not waste a day discussing lynching him.

**Specifically for RC, but for all: read 38 and please stop claiming anything if you are town. All claiming is going to do is lead the town PRs toward the wrong people. It's more detriment to town than any potential benefit. The only thing to be gained is scum killing you instead of a real PR, God forbid you're actually the PR.**

[acryon]

I like your style, RolePlay, and to be honest, the things you say make sense to me. It worries me a bit that I seem so much more easily swayed by your wording than other people though. I don't want to be a gullible sheep.

VOTE: Keyser Soze

Do you always think out loud like this? In my experience I tend to see scum do this more than town so that if/when the vote leads to a townflip, you can always say "I knew I was worried about being swayed by you Roleplay" and then move on to RolePlay.

[acryon]

I like your style, RolePlay, and to be honest, the things you say make sense to me. It worries me a bit that I seem so much more easily swayed by your wording than other people though. I don't want to be a gullible sheep.

VOTE: Keyser Soze

In light of RolePlay's most recent comment, what in his original post that you agreed with resonated with you?

[acryon]

One thing that worries me is that he seems to be instructing Supercool what to do!

Show me.

So far I have highlighted the problems I have with his reads/logic. I would not call that instructing/coaching.

I have also asked him to give me an update of his reads in light of his latest revelation. I would not call this instructing/coaching.

I have asked many players for their reads (and to explain their reads) as I think it is productive.

RolePlay25, I await your reply.

In Post 159 you tell him to explain more without commenting on why! Nor do you comment on his explanation! This is not indicative of anything on its own, but is worth noting!

In Post 176 you deflect my suspicion, and tell him he "needs to make a case" for you to read him! This would be a strong evil player telling a weaker evil player that his play is poor! It gives you the opportunity to sacrifice the evil player "for the greater good" if his behavior remains inexplicable and transparently lacking in any motivation that might lead to evil players being uncovered. But it also tells him how to behave like a good guy! And it lets you revise your opinion if his behavior improves!

You are a crime boss! You are not embarrassed to share opinions and attack players, so to me this soft treatment is worth noting!

Where are you at with your read of him now? You said your logic was faulty, unvoted, but you seem to still be suspicious. Why remove the vote?

[acryon]

Where are you at with your read of him now? You said your logic was faulty, unvoted, but you seem to still be suspicious. Why remove the vote?

I do not wish to kill him right now! That does not mean he is proven good!

Who said a vote on him means you want to kill him? Especially D1, votes provide pressure, which causes things to come out that help the town build their reads. Unless he is L-2/L-1, you adding your vote to him is certainly not an intent to lynch.

[acryon]

A vote is an intent to kill! There is no other use for one! If I wish to learn someone's alignment I will ask questions and air speculation to see how they respond!

When I vote for someone I desire them to die!

Then what was this?

Ah! Now I do have a vote!

Vote: Dwlee99

You were confident enough to vote for someone to die in the first couple pages, but not now? Surely you know more now than you did then.

[acryon]

Vote: Supercool

What, specifically, was enough in his post for you to turn from not wanting to kill him to wanting to kill him? To me it looks like your primary reason is that you don't like he is exonerating people based on their activity, which I agree is a bad reason to do so, but that doesn't make it scummy.

I guess the question is: from the way super has played thusfar, what were you expecting from him out of a full reads post?

[acryon]

This Keyser is almost definitely town.

Yup.
And Roleplay is almost certainly town too due to their not caring about their playstyle being stuck at. Sticking to your guns is generally a town trait and the desperate wanting of being listened to seemed town too.

In terms of his playstyle, it's actually a detriment to the town since it makes things harder to understand and adds noise. That being said, I don't think either town or scum are more likely to employ it, but I would say if anything backing off and playing normally would be the town trait, as it would show a desire to work together with the town and clear up communication.

[acryon]

Vote: Supercool

What, specifically, was enough in his post for you to turn from not wanting to kill him to wanting to kill him? To me it looks like your primary reason is that you don't like he is exonerating people based on their activity, which I agree is a bad reason to do so, but that doesn't make it scummy.

I guess the question is: from the way super has played thusfar, what were you expecting from him out of a full reads post?

Logic that would indicate that his motivations were part of a genuine attempt to determine whether other players were good or evil!

If you agree there is no genuine attempt to determine the inner nature of our fellow guests, do you wish him to die or to live?

I wouldn't agree that there is no genuine attempt to determine who is what. He had a vote on you and changed you to a null-read for not much of a reason. There really isn't a good reason to do this as scum. He's either sloppy town or very very sloppy scum.

[acryon]

Question: Why is everybody accusing TheCow of actively lurking when it seems like RadiantCowbells has been doing the same thing? I mean, let's look through this.

How, in any way, has RC helped town in these posts? All it seems like is that he's looking active and making friends instead of actually, you know, scumhunting. In addition, Roleplay has looked somewhat less suspicious in the last couple pages, mainly because of his actual analysis and trying to get the game moving. For that reason, I would like to UNVOTE: Roleplay25 and VOTE: RadiantCowbells.

Everything you list here is correct, but I think the difference is that RC seems more like a VI, which is far more annoying, but isn't necessarily scum and is a lot harder for the town to stomach lynching. As I said before, RC seems like a perfect option for a Vig shot if we have one, because VI's kill towns in LyLo.

RolePlay25: Gets alot of criticism for his style, but persists, which I actually appreciate. Some want to brand this 'anti-town', but I see it as wanting to have fun and play the game on his own terms and not letting anyone discourage him. Is either very diligently scumhunting, or is trying very hard to appear that he is, and I see no reason to conclude it's the latter.

I do want to clarify that I do not think that roleplaying is firmly anti-town, but given the option between pro-town and anti-town, it has to sway toward anti- since it undoubtedly mucks up discussion (numerous people have asked for clarification from him which proves my point).

Also @biji: You posted a lot of your feelings, but I don't see a direction. If someone was to earn your vote (which generally I think someone always should), then who would it be?

[acryon]

Vote: Bloodking

The reasons for such should be as evident as sun, as inevitable as the tides.

What? No the reasons are not obvious, and especially given your necessity to truly feel ready to lynch someone to vote them, I think it's important you make your reasoning clear.

[acryon]

Well then, that is a no. A pity, the cookies shall have to be withheld.

Chocolate chip?

Sir Acryon, suppose one day if, instead of in a drawing room, we found ourselves upon a hill. And as we stood upon that hill, we witnessed a burning building. "What is happening," you ask, turning to me.

Sir Acryon, the building is on fire. Blame me not, instead observe the building. It is a small structure, a shack of limited size. You lash out at me, asking me to explain the nature of fire, how it can set a building alight.

Please, Sir Acryon, reign in your prodigious temper. The reason for my actions is found in Bloodking's post, not in mine. Seek to his post and consider. If so truly you need an explanation after such, perhaps I, like Prometheus, shall explain the basics of fire.

I hope that is not necessary.

Go ahead and explain because wordplay doesn't lead a town.

[acryon]

Leadership, dear Acryon, is not a trait I have ever aspired to. It is like schoolwork - depressing, tedious, and filled with little reward. A leader is blamed for failures, burdened with regrets. If the leader is correct and ignored, somehow it becomes the leader's fault. "You should have lead me better!" is the cry. If the leader is followed, it becomes an excuse to offload thought! The group, instead of heroes and villains, becomes composed of followers and rebels. How does one determine the alignment based on whether one follows or rebels? It is impossible! Such speaks more to a person's nature than their character.

Non, non, mon cheri, leadership in a mystery such as this is a responsibility I do not seek. I wish to be among a coalition of equals! A band of compatriots, of siblings in arms!

If you wish to follow me, Sir Acryon, I invite you to. It is as simple as getting on your horse and following my path. But if you do so, do so because you wish to follow my path. Do not demand in me the qualities of a leader because you have chosen to follow.

So you place a vote on Bloodking, but don't desire to lead anyone and provide no reasons or pressure. What what your point?

[acryon]

Is that not enough? Please explain to me how any hero who has thoroughly perused this game might view our friend MarioMaker as a null, a blank spot. Is this the actions of a hero seeking understanding, or a villain who has noted a possible target for later?

It seems loose to assume that he must be scum because no town that thoroughly perused the game would make these notes. Who said he thoroughly perused it? I think it's clear he didn't. Bloodking's post reads like someone who scanned through 10 pages after being sick and didn't dive into the minutia of every post. I don't blame him for that. Ideally, every player, active or inactive, would take a detailed look at each post, but that's not reality and it also doesn't make him scum.

[acryon]

Is that not enough? Please explain to me how any hero who has thoroughly perused this game might view our friend MarioMaker as a null, a blank spot. Is this the actions of a hero seeking understanding, or a villain who has noted a possible target for later?

It seems loose to assume that he must be scum because no town that thoroughly perused the game would make these notes. Who said he thoroughly perused it? I think it's clear he didn't. Bloodking's post reads like someone who scanned through 10 pages after being sick and didn't dive into the minutia of every post. I don't blame him for that. Ideally, every player, active or inactive, would take a detailed look at each post, but that's not reality and it also doesn't make him scum.

Sir Acryon, I admire your spirit, but your defense is misaimed. I would wager every farthing I have against a hot meal that Bloodking is a villain.

I shall make you an offer. If I have erred in my judgment, I shall cease my clever wordplay and communicate to you in only the most boring, prosaic, and mundane fashion I could possibly imagine. I shall become as dull and uninteresting as you please. That would violate the entire reason I came here to play! But I wish to offer it to you!

Think about it! Either you receive clear communication! Or you receive the death of a nefarious villain! Does not either outcome offer you a benefit?

Not interested. As much as I am mildly bothered by your wording, I am majorly bothered by town lynching town.

[acryon]

Is it truly so hard to deduce? Who am I voting to kill?

Acryon, I am curious how you deduced Bloodking's affiliation from his sparse missives.

Who said I did? The risk with every flip is a possible dead townie. And in the case you have given me far from enough to buy into the lynch.

[acryon]

What then, Sir Acryon, is your analysis of his posting? How do you read him? Do you not see the glaring inconsistencies in his description of Dwlee? Do you not see how he praises the skills of you and Kaiser, agrees with you on the alignment of Golden, only to completely forget them when it comes time to place his vote? Lazy, on this we agree. But the intent, Sir Acryon, is this how a hero thinks?

He didn't say he agreed with me on the alignment of Golden necessarily. He said "So far I like his scum hunting and questions the most I can completely understand his thought process and why he is asking the questions he is." Where in there does he say he agrees with me on the alignment of Golden?

Understanding

is not

agreement

. I already stated what I thought about his statements. Nothing too crazy and looks like a standard catch-up post. Anything groundbreaking? No. Is this something to keep in mind on future days? Sure. Am I interested in lynching him over it today? Nope.

[acryon]

As for Dwlee, I wish you to read what I quoted!

Leaning Town

Dwlee

- I feel the whole reaction test thing was more town leaning than scum I don't see what motivation scum would have to do this, and I feel like scum would be paying more attention to the vote count the he was. While his activity level is high I don't think his content reflects this it feels like he is just here interacting with people which isn't really wither alignment for me as this could be scum trying to seem active or a town actually just trying to converse with people. As for his reads so far they seem null to me.

You are saying to me that a good guy went through the thought process outlined here, and then categorized him as "Leaning town"? Or did he categorize him as "Leaning Town" prior to writing this?

If you think it's the former, allow me to dip into the common vernacular. Are you fucking serious.

Do you really think it's that absurd to go through that thought process and determine a town-leaning alignment? Leans are very often nulls pushed one way or the other by gut; this looks like that.

I don't have as much of an issue with your argument earlier in the post, but I still think I'll side with Occam here, especially this early in the game.

[acryon]

What then, Sir Acryon, is your analysis of his posting? How do you read him? Do you not see the glaring inconsistencies in his description of Dwlee? Do you not see how he praises the skills of you and Kaiser, agrees with you on the alignment of Golden, only to completely forget them when it comes time to place his vote? Lazy, on this we agree. But the intent, Sir Acryon, is this how a hero thinks?

He didn't say he agreed with me on the alignment of Golden necessarily. He said "So far I like his scum hunting and questions the most I can completely understand his thought process and why he is asking the questions he is." Where in there does he say he agrees with me on the alignment of Golden?

Understanding

is not

agreement

. I already stated what I thought about his statements. Nothing too crazy and looks like a standard catch-up post. Anything groundbreaking? No. Is this something to keep in mind on future days? Sure. Am I interested in lynching him over it today? Nope.

And what was his read on Golden?

Leaning scum, but evidently his feelings were worse for you.

[acryon]

Do you truthfully think that the death of Sir Golden is a superior choice for the day?

At this point, yes, but I'm also nowhere close to ready for a lynch.

[acryon]

So everything you are posting has no point because you lack a killing intent? And people accuse me of posting unnecessary verbiage!

Did I say that everything I post has no point? All I said is I'm not prepared to lynch right now. Questions don't need kill intent to have value.

[acryon]

He didn't say he agreed with me on the alignment of Golden necessarily. He said "So far I like his scum hunting and questions the most I can completely understand his thought process and why he is asking the questions he is." Where in there does he say he agrees with me on the alignment of Golden?

Understanding

is not

agreement

. I already stated what I thought about his statements. Nothing too crazy and looks like a standard catch-up post. Anything groundbreaking? No. Is this something to keep in mind on future days? Sure. Am I interested in lynching him over it today? Nope.

I personally believe that when someone says "I can completely understand his thought process", they usually mean they agree, to some degree. It would be hard to understand someone so well that you'd be willing to state that you do so, without agreeing with that thought process, because most people wouldn't be willing to state that they completely understand something they don't agree with.

It's a minor point, but I think you should give more credence to RolePlay's point here than you are, based on that.

I would agree that someone that says that is likely to agree with the ideas, but the fact is there it is also possible to not. So while one may be more likely, you can't say someone is scum for understanding but feeling a bit differently because that is still a reasonable stance. He would be attacked just as much here for sheeping, so I'm reluctant to grab my pitchfork when he was clearly damned either way.

[acryon]

Bji is town.

I'm inclined to agree. Who is not town dwlee?

[acryon]

BLOODKING (Don't know where the numbers are, don't particularly care) seems to have forced reads, probably due to his lack of presence up to that point.

I don't agree with Neumune's conclusion after this, but I do want to highlight this quote because it is similar to what I mentioned before. 1) It seems far more likely to me that his general reads are due to a lack of presence coupled with the difficulty of catching up. 2) I don't see the scum-motivation for voting the way he did. It seems more like someone that isn't quite focused than scum. This all being said, we haven't heard from him since his reads list and we have plenty of time left in the day to clear things up a bit.

[acryon]

The impossible is that a good guy followed that train of logic. And that is but one of the issues with Bloodking's post. It is a Matryoshka Doll of villainy.

This is just not true. Illogical =/= scummy. In fact, I would say scum tend to be more careful about their logical progressions. I know I certainly am whenever I play scum. You're asking for trust when your conclusions are backed with faulty assumptions and hyperbole. No thank you.

[acryon]

One remembers a lecture from Sir Acryon earlier in the day, when Acryon lectured myself about the values of voting! "A vote", sir Acryon said, "is a means to apply pressure and learn more about a person."

As I observe my vote of Bloodking I wonder how Sir Acryon plans to learn more about Bloodking. It must not be through pressure! For he nobly deflects it with great ardor. One might almost believe that my vote on Bloodking has placed Sir Acryon under pressure! It is noted.

Bloodking has not grown less suspicious by dint of absence. Neither has Sir Golden.

And I still agree that votes are great for applying pressure, but it seemed as though you disagreed with that idea so why would I assume you were now operating under a new concept of voting purpose?

We can learn more about Bloodking in time, and when he is here. But the key is to always be learning, which at the very least your push on Bloodking has certainly helped that. I do agree that absence doesn't eliminate suspicion, nor do I think anyone would feel that way. But I also don't feel Bloodking was all that suspicious in the first place.

[acryon]

Bloodking is a villain Sir Acryon. It is your philosophy that is inconsistent, not mine.

It appears you would tell me that such inconsistency is the mark of a hero. That you become more noble the less sense you make.

Should Golden prove aligned with good, and Bloodking aligned with evil, we may find ourselves pointedly revisiting this conversation.

Not sure how my philosophy is inconsistent? I vote for two potential reasons: 1) provide pressure/get information or 2) intent to lynch. According to you, you only vote for reason 2):

A vote is an intent to kill! There is no other use for one! If I wish to learn someone's alignment I will ask questions and air speculation to see how they respond!

When I vote for someone I desire them to die!

So where is my inconsistency? If you are using your vote to pressure Bloodking, then clearly the inconsistency is with you.

[acryon]

I am using my vote to kill Bloodking. Had I another method, I should end him on the spot. Were you to give me such a method, I would employ it immediately. Bloodking's death is a requirement for my victory. Jake has stated such.

If I wish to pressure people, I believe I shall speak to them. As I am doing with you, Acryon. I note you did not reiterate any conviction that Golden is a villain. Do you still believe him such, Acryon? How strong is your conviction? Shall you flee your own words, claim your actions are for mere "pressure"?

Why do I need to reiterate the idea that Golden is scum? At the moment, I'm unsure exactly who I think is most likely to be scum, although Golden is surely near the top. Also there is a difference between voting someone I think is scummy for the sake of pressure/information, and voting someone I think is scum for the sake of a lynch, although you seem to be conflating the two.

[acryon]

I will also offer you some of these delicious cookies if you can locate the crux of Acryon's misunderstanding. For Sir Acryon, through either negligence or willful ignorance, has missed the thrust of my point in the entire.

I didn't miss your point; your point just is not strong enough. I wonder how many people it will take disagreeing with you to realize this?

[acryon]

Given that they are identical actions, Sir Acryon, I think it is you who are mistaken. By virtue of their identical nature there cannot be such a distinction. One must select which one wishes one's vote to be.

This is just incorrect. Intent matters. If golden were run up to L-1, for instance, I would most likely unvote, so clearly there is a distinction. A pressure vote to me is a formal declaration that I feel a certain player is doing things that I consider scummy. It does not mean I want them dead right now. Think of it as a more serious FoS if that makes you feel better.

[acryon]

I do not know what an "FOS" is, nor do I care.

You make no effort to comprehend the meaning of my words, nor do you make the effort to engage in civil discussion to clarify your lack of comprehension. Is it through a paucity of intellect, or a byproduct of the nature of your alignment? I find that I cannot muster even the least little iota of desire to deduce that today.

I wish to converse with other people, I do not wish to converse with you. I shall take further intervention from you to derail conversations I am having with more refined members of this company as a declaration that you do not wish any actual attempts to discover the alignment of our fellow players to occur. I will react accordingly. You may place your vote on me to chastise me for my behavior. Try to locate someone who gives a shit.

[acryon]

I do not know what an "FOS" is, nor do I care.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fos+mafia

[acryon]

Thank you for ruining all the fun I was having with this game by the by.

I wasn't going to respond to this, but it's not right for you to blame someone that isn't griefing for you not having fun. People have been hostile toward your way of wording things, which I'm sure bothers you, but you can't expect everyone everyone to be warm to something that may make playing the game for them more difficult/troublesome. Play the way you play, but understand that you needing to clarify things is just going to happen. Not everybody signed up for a game of riddles in every other post, and you can't expect them to play a game they didn't sign up for.

[acryon]

I think that if you're trying to catch up and don't have time/energy to read in detail all of the prior postings (and I can understand this as it did take me 1.5 hours to do a careful re-read and even then I didn't have time to do as careful reading of the later postings as I did of the earlier), you're less likely to go "out on a limb" with strong reads, and/or reads that buck the status quo, because you know in the back of your mind that because you haven't read carefully, you may have missed something that will either a) cause you to look inconsistent or opportunistic or whatever and get you in the hot seat (which neither town nor scum generally want to be in), or b) just lead to distracting noise as you have to respond to the comments that indicate the flaws in your reasoning, all wasting town time dealing with mis-statements that simply came out of not having read well enough.

I find that just as plausable an explanation for Bloodking's reads list as the ulterior motives that RolePlay suggests. And I also find it null, as I can see both town and scum doing the same thing here.

That being said, RolePlay's explanation is

also plausable

and is

good evidence

that will be

remembered and referred to later

should other supporting evidence of Bloodking's guilt present itself.

Finally, I find it depressing that the two people who are the hottest topics of conversation - golden and bloodking - aren't even bothering to answer questions directed to them or defend their prior postings. I guess some patience is in order here though, I guess real life must be getting in the way or something.

Agree with all of this.

[acryon]

I think we broke RP. He turned from whimsical to bully. I didn't care for the roleplaying, but bullies are worse. Unfortunately being a bully doesn't necessarily make you scum (although we will see how this continues to develop).

@Keyser: I liked you better when you asked questions rather than just posting ISO-analysis.

[acryon]

[Currently writing...]

@Keyser: I liked you better when you asked questions rather than just posting ISO-analysis.

No one answers my questions Got a few pending questions still to be answered too.
The ISO shit is something I do to consolidate my read on someone. Sometimes I miss things when I'm too distracted.

Once I catch up (in fact, when more than half of the players catch up - what are you guys all waiting for?) I'll be online to chat. Felt like I was going round in circles yesterday talking to myself

This is all very fair. Why do you feel ready to pull the trigger on BK?

[acryon]

This is all very fair. Why do you feel ready to

pull the trigger

on BK?

I do not "feel ready" to

kill

BL0ODK1NG.
I do "feel ready" to

vote

BL0ODK1NG.
Here is my "scum lean" read of BL0ODK1NG (post 333).
Here is me looking at RolePlay25's reasons (post 332).
I do not town read BL0ODK1NG.
Voting BL0ODK1NG was the next natural step to take.
Do you think BL0ODK1NG is town-aligned, acryon?

Thanks for the clarification. I wouldn't say I

think

he is town-aligned. I would say he is a null to me at this point because everything he has done could come from either side as far as I'm concerned, and my gut tells me it's coming from the town-side so if I had to push it one way it would be a town-lean but that's just my gut leaning it one way or the other.

[acryon]

[Currently writing...]

@Keyser: I liked you better when you asked questions rather than just posting ISO-analysis.

No one answers my questions Got a few pending questions still to be answered too.
The ISO shit is something I do to consolidate my read on someone. Sometimes I miss things when I'm too distracted.

Once I catch up (in fact, when more than half of the players catch up - what are you guys all waiting for?) I'll be online to chat. Felt like I was going round in circles yesterday talking to myself

Oh keyser, did I ever answer your question about my reads on acyron and RC? I think I started answering it at some point but might not have hit submit

Not Keyser, but you did in 259.

[acryon]

Hello everybody.
Over the weekend my activity should improve.
Mocks are getting in the way.

Keyser makes a good point about my questions. Golden is the right wagon and it shouldn't be abandoned.
My playstyle this game is to focus on logic first and foremost disregarding gur for the most part. This causes me to focus on a player. If I see a request I will almost always try and do it ASAP.

But I completely destroyed the case against Golden in post 315. Even Keyser gave up on Golden after that. Why are you still voting Golden? Why is anybody still voting Golden?

I will say that I am still voting golden because I haven't found someone else I feel it needs to be placed on more at the moment. That being said, this could change soon.

[acryon]

Keyser is reinforcing my thoughts of him as town.
Normally he makes those charts in scum chats not in the thread.

How many times have you played with him? I'm generally against using meta, especially if it's based on a small sample size.

[acryon]

But I completely destroyed the case against Golden in post 315. Even Keyser gave up on Golden after that. Why are you still voting Golden? Why is anybody still voting Golden?

I still want to vote golden009 - in no way is he a town-read of mine.
Why can't other people vote golden009?

Do you think golden009 is town-aligned, bji?

I want to understand why players who have not refuted my arguments from post 315, would continue to vote Golden.

And yes, I do think he's town aligned, I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise.

What does it mean to "want to vote golden009"? Who else do you "want to vote"?

Honestly my vote on golden is outdated at this point. Could return, but for now:
VOTE: RolePlay25

[acryon]

Page 14

2) I don't see the scum-motivation for voting the way he did. It seems more like someone that isn't quite focused than scum.

This is a possible argument.
However, it could also be scum-BL0ODK1NG finding it hard to build artificial reads/scum cases [maybe a meta-check would be advisable].

I do agree completely here, and this tends to be where gut comes in until we have more information to lead us one way or the other. My gut just happens to be telling me town at the moment, although that can certainly change with more info.

Someone likes my hammer! FINALLY.
Where have I repeated myself, though?

I didn't mind your hammer.

I think we broke RP. He turned from whimsical to bully. I didn't care for the roleplaying, but bullies are worse. Unfortunately being a bully doesn't necessarily make you scum

@acryon - do you think RolePlay25 is now a scum-aligned bully?

To be honest, I'm not sure. In my experience, scum are more likely to crack under the pressure, which it seems like he is doing. My vote just adds to that to see where it goes from here.

People have been hostile toward your way of wording things, which I'm sure bothers you, but you can't expect everyone everyone to be warm to something that may make playing the game for them more difficult/troublesome. Play the way you play, but understand that you needing to clarify things is just going to happen. Not everybody signed up for a game of riddles in every other post, and you can't expect them to play a game they didn't sign up for.

Explain to me scum-RolePlay25's motivation to adopt the above playstyle?

I wouldn't say I think that he adopted his playstyle to assist him in being scum. He may just do it anyway, but it certainly makes him harder to peg as scum since many people have already admitted to not really reading his posts.

I wouldn't say I

think

he is town-aligned. I would say he is a null to me at this point because everything he has done could come from either side as far as I'm concerned, and my gut tells me it's coming from the town-side so if I had to push it one way it would be a town-lean but that's just my gut leaning it one way or the other.

This was your read on BL0ODK1NG.
Now, point to the posts of RolePlay25 that you think could not have come from town (thus, scum-indicative).

I don't like his attempts to bully people onto a train. I don't like how he got emotional. Emotional =/= scummy, but they are often connected since being scum is naturally more stressful. My feelings on him have less to do with specific posts and more to do with his demeanor and agenda.

I really hope nobody actually thinks scum will quickhammer on D1. That would be insanity for scum players to reveal themselves that early. What will happen if this wagon really takes off is either BK gets to L-1 and which point you unvote him, or BK gets to L-1 where someone announces intent to hammer at which point you retract your vote. Unless you go MIA for a long period of time or something, BK will not get lynched with your vote on him.

I'm not worried about scum quickhammering; I'm worried about town doing it. People like RC this game/VIs clearly don't have an interest in being helpful, so I have seen them quickhammer. There is also the possibility of someone coming in that's been away, not realizing how many votes BK has, and accidentally hammering. No one should be put to L-1 unless the person putting them there is ready for them to die.

[acryon]

Sorry y'all...life's not slowing down a bit, and it's not fair to y'all for me to prodge all of D1.

@mod: please replace me.

No worries Diego, take care!

[acryon]

I'm not worried about scum quickhammering; I'm worried about town doing it. People like RC this game/VIs clearly don't have an interest in being helpful, so I have seen them quickhammer. There is also the possibility of someone coming in that's been away, not realizing how many votes BK has, and accidentally hammering. No one should be put to L-1 unless the person putting them there is ready for them to die.

OH SHIT.

SHOTS FIRED.

Mild rant incoming: You've made 16 posts and only 143 is even close to being a real post. Are you here to actually play the game? I don't get trolling here. I wish there were ways to just remove trolls from the game to be honest, because your play (or lack thereof) ruins the game regardless of your alignment. Most people take this game to have fun, but part of that is at least taking it seriously. It's ok to have fun, but if you're not going to take it seriously then as far as I'm concerned you should get out.

[acryon]

Technically someone could post filler forever

This behaviour would be anti-town/scummy.
I would lynch that.
I would policy lynch that.
(But BL0ODK1NG isn't doing this.)

Isn't that essentially was RC is doing?

[acryon]

Isn't that essentially was RC is doing?

Look at RadiantCowbells' town-meta/scum-meta - it is the best defence as town/scum (

'too scummy to be scum'

and

'I play like this as both town and scum'

).
Thus, I wouldn't scum-read him for it, as it is null-indicative.

However

, based on his posts so far:
If faced with a NO LYNCH or a RadiantCowbells-POLICY LYNCH, I would choose a RadiantCowbells-POLICY LYNCH.

I strongly agree with this. As I stated earlier, it would be of great detriment to town for us to be stuck in LyLo with RC alive.

[acryon]

Also Keyser, all of my votes had killing intent! When I read your words I noted a glaring inconsistency of thought to deed! But then I proceeded to attempt to verify, and discovered the inconsistency was a flaw of my memory! Had it truthfully existed, I would pursue it to the end.

Similar with Dwlee! You mistake the ability to alter ones opinion with the idea that the initial opinion was insincere. It was not in the least!

So how about what you perceived to be an inconsistency of mine? Either you admit that you were wrong as you did here with Keyser, or you ceased in pursuing it to the end like you just stated you would.

[acryon]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday.

Noted

[acryon]

@Keyser; I'm allowed to play with whatever style I wish to play with at any time. In Newbie 1658 (Mafia in Plain Sight) my ply was less emotional and more reasoned. I can't talk about most of my recent games but gradually changing meta isn't a scumtell.
I don't think you've been actively

pushing

for RC's lynch. I think TC has.

Think of it like this. If you no-lynch, the scum get to privately choose the lynch, and then no-kill, losing you a mislynch and a valuable confirmation the player you're townreading yet is being scumread is town.

No-lynch on D1 would be awful. If we ever the ability to NL, we want to save it for later. Early on, we definitely need the lynches for information.

[acryon]

I'd remove Acyron out of the townreads, leave the other two.

Mala

RC is looking like a shitter this game. I don't see why he'd act the way he is if he were working towards his wincon as any faction. That being the case, I'd be cool with a PL if we somehow don't execute a proper lynch. As it stands, burgerking is a real possibility, depending on whether or not he responds to his prod.

I have this really weird feeling this is Cow trying to push on an easy target!

Is this a genuine response Mario? Or are you being sarcastic?

[acryon]

!

Looks like most of your links are set to go to the top of this thread.

[acryon]

the process of catching up! (part 2)

post 225 : really ? you don't expect someone to have a scum read in page 10?

That depends entirely on the person's activity in the game. Someone that has been involved/clearly reading? Absolutely they should have some scum-reads. But some players are not very active and some clearly don't read the thread in much detail.

[acryon]

Is that surprising, given that the wagon on Bloodking was there mostly because people didn't like his level of activity, both in terms of volume, and in terms of producing a "too safe, didn't try hard enough" reads list? Frozen Angel certainly took care of dispelling both of these issues right off the bat.

In level of activity, higher.

In content of activity, no change.

Shall I produce some flash cards with smiley faces to communicate the sheer lack of content in her posts to you? It is not so hard to produce a very weak summary of events that occurred within a game. Especially one dominated by said faces and vague commentary (mostly about how she does not like the votes on her, apparently the primary focus of her reread).

There is a clear stylistic chasm between you and FA. I hope you are taking this into account and not just chasing playstyle differences since you already got the taste for blood.

[acryon]

You have 20 minutes to convince me why your not giving me a chance to play and why are you so sure about Blood being mafia instead of the reason he agreed on a read and I won't vote you.

pedit - I never said you didn't interacted with anyone else. I said your trolling the whole f... game and your focused on one slot and your not even having doubts about it ...

don't get distracted. tell me reasons. why you think I'm scum ? because the role pm jake gave me wasn't at all ... and I'm sure you never saw my role pm ...

You believe I have been focused on a single slot for the entire game? That is most interesting. Do tell me more about this read through.

To be fair, while I don't think it's accurate to say you have focused almost soley on her slot the

entire

game, you certainly have for at least the last 12+ pages or so, which would also make it disingenuous for you to pretend her claim is complete absurdity.

[acryon]

Also FA is likely town so let's not vote town, Kay?

Got a second to explain? We could use your voice here.

[acryon]

TALK TO ME INSTEAD OF MAKING NOISE ....

Do you always play this...emotionally? You should understand that being so defensive is often viewed negatively by the town, so it is certainly not helping your case.

[acryon]

Frozen reminds me of another player. This said player reacts via emotion when town. The pressure from RP is stupid right now and the chances of this being a TVT fight is pretty high.

Everybody listen to Malakittens. I don't see quite eye to eye with her on RP being T, but at the very least we can move on from either BK/FA or RP today, because this back and forth is just brutal.

[acryon]

Fellow members of the town, there is two ways this can play out. The first is quite tiresome and trite. I make a "case". Frozen Angel attacks every single element of this case, because that is how it is supposed to play out. A good guy makes a case, if it is good enough the bad guy dies. She wants such. She desires such. She is actively seeking to attack my case, regardless of its contents. She argues that none of my points on Bloodking had merit, that they all boiled down to attacking him for lurking. For those of you who were there, you know this is not my case. For those of you who were not, read.

I prefer another method, perhaps this is from a bias that this site does not share. You read her posts, you see her raw need to latch onto a familiar framework of "town vs. scum" and you see how such framework she seeks places her as scum, and me as town. Like adults, like equals, we all make a judgment.

To me, it seems a waste of time to attempt to convince Frozen Angel she is a villain. She has known such since she replaced in. You know such by observation. Let us finish this.

I'm sure even you see the futility in an infinite back and forth between you and FA. You echo your past reasons, she denies and gets defensive. Who that isn't convinced is convinced through this?

[acryon]

VOTE: Frozen Angel

you might wanna explain ?

"Reasons". I promise I will explain at the appropriate time.

I will kill you all after this game.... I'm me myself , a town member.... If your that blind to accept reasons from such troller your as bad as he is ...

pedit : ..... your going to lynch me because of those 6 posts he posted? the only thing I asked was time to let me play ... and your that obsessed about those faulty reasons?!!

Bji said the opposite of that. He was letting his 6 posts pass, but yours he is not.

[acryon]

I hate reads lists, they're so fake and "scummy" -- in a way that doesn't involve jargon.

They don't have to be, although I agree they can become unnecessary points of contention depending on how much credence is given to them. That being said, they are good for some amount of information, and you should only be worried about them if you're scum.

UNVOTE:

@supercool: Of the people on your wagon, how do you feel about each of their perceived or stated reasons for being there? Who's scum? Who's town?

[acryon]

@supercool: Of the people on your wagon, how do you feel about each of their perceived or stated reasons for being there? Who's scum? Who's town?

I think that FA, mala, and maybe cow are scum. Titus is a null read for me, since she and neumune haven't really said much yet. I'm waiting for her to catch up with the game.

You really think that three of the four people on your wagon are scum/maybe scum?

VOTE: RolePlay25

UNVOTE:

@acryon - can you explain how you got from the vote to the unvote. I didn't quite catch that.

Yeah I didn't explain it, because I didn't feel the need to add noise at that point. Simply I'm not interested in it being there anymore. I did it in the first place to partially attempt to slow down the FAvRP walling.

idk I'm in a rut right now. I don't really have any reads.

A good starting point would be to take a look at the 4 main wagons of D1 so far:
RolePlay25 - Dwlee99, supercool898, Keyser Söze, acryon, golden009 (L-2)
golden009 - MarioManiac4, acryon, Keyser Söze, Titus (L-3)
Frozen Angel - RolePlay25, Keyser Söze, bji, supercool898, Dwlee99 (L-2)
supercool - Malakittens, TheCow, Frozen Angel, Titus (L-3)

Interestingly Keyser, the person this makes not look good is you. The only wagon you're not on is supercool's who was twice on the same one as you. Do you generally jump on every wagon that comes along? Do you feel your vote is best-used on FA right now?

[acryon]

Simply I'm not interested in it being there anymore.

Yes, that's my question. Why?

What

made you think RolePlay25 was scum?

What

made you think RolePlay25 was not scum?

[Please point out the posts

].

What? First, why wouldn't you ask me this when I voted? Second, my vote wasn't necessarily because I thought he was scum. Did I dislike his tunneling? Yep. Did I think things were getting out of control? Yep. Was I voting him because I thought he was most likely to be scum and I wanted him to die? Nope. That will always be the reason for my vote at the end of the day, but not necessarily during.

Interestingly Keyser, the person this makes not look good is you. The only wagon you're not on is supercool's who was twice on the same one as you. Do you generally jump on every wagon that comes along? Do you feel your vote is best-used on FA right now?

What do the reasons for me voting for RolePlay25, golden009 and BL0ODK1NG have anything to do with supercool898?
If voting RolePlay25, golden009 and BL0ODK1NG is "NOT LOOK GOOD", tell me what is 'LOOK GOOD'.
Are you saying supercool898 is sheeping me? Or I am sheeping supercool898?
I have voted for people I think are scum/or where I needed answers.
I can't see how that does not "look good". Please explain.

Clearly you were able to draw the conclusion that it potentially looks like one of you is sheeping the other, and your not being on supercool's wagon despite pushing on the others make that seem like you. I'm not saying I think you are scum; I am just pointing out that if we were looking for one person to look the worst based on those wagons, that person is you.

Do you feel your vote is best-used on FA right now?

Are you telling me to unvote or vote for someone else?
I will unvote when I feel like it.
I will vote someone else when I feel like it.

I'm not telling you to do anything. I asked you a question and for some reason you got defensive and didn't answer it...

[acryon]

Second, my vote wasn't necessarily because I thought he was scum.

I will keep this in mind when you vote someone in the future

, and will be sure to ask you:

'are you voting for this person because you think they are scum?'

This is fine with me. I have stated before and will say again that there is a difference between "I think this person is doing something scummy so I am going to put pressure on them to see what happens" and "I think they are scum". One is based on the actions and the other is based on the person. I'm not going to lynch someone for doing something scummy, but I will lynch someone for being scum. I get how this can be confusing, but town can do things that appear scummy, so we aren't looking at actions so much as we are trying to discover intent.

I am just pointing out that if we were looking for one person to look the worst based on those wagons, that person is you.

You are in no position to say I "look the worst" based on the wagons I have been on (on Day 1 with no flips).
This only works if supercool898 is scum (and my historic/current scum reads are town). Now how the hell am I supposed to know which ones are 'good', and 'not good'?


This is the 2nd time I've said that sentence (post 212).

Who looks worse than you based on those wagons?

Do you feel your vote is best-used on FA right now?

Are you telling me to unvote or vote for someone else?
I will unvote when I feel like it.
I will vote someone else when I feel like it.

I'm not telling you to do anything. I asked you a question and for some reason you got defensive and didn't answer it...

It is a non-question. It is like me asking: was my vote best-used on RolePlay25 at the time? Yes.
Was my vote best-used on golden009 at the time? Yes.
"Is my vote best-used on FA right now?" Yes. That is why it is there.

I wouldn't say it was a non-question. On the contrary, there was more than one facet to it. 1) I was essentially asking you why you thought it was the right place for your vote to be, and 2) I was asking you to be introspective and examine your own reasons to determine if it was, in fact, in the right place.

[acryon]

I feel like Acryon's questions to keyser are crap.
Just the "why didnt you answer the question" post after, as keyser said, is a non-question.
I also do not like the "looking bad before flips" thing.

P-edit: Then why didnt you just ask that then, acryon.

Because the way I asked it was more interesting. It gave us a reaction and I was still able to follow up more directly. But I also don't understand how it was a non-question. You don't have to be a genius to read between the lines and understand what I am getting at. This game is all about getting information directly and indirectly through reactions. If I can do both with one question, why wouldn't I?

And for the record, it was Keyser who actually told RC to look at the wagons to develop reads...

[acryon]

Dwlee it's also clear to me you are putting far too much stock in your one game of experience with Keyser. Forget it. Any decent mafia player can and will adjust their style from game to game. Reads based on meta are just plain bad.

[acryon]

What is this obsession with reads list?

I was wondering if your other scum reads hinged on Frozen Angel being scum.
E.g when you thought supercool898 was scum, you thought I was his partner based on association tells.
I need to see/hear your individual reads.
You should be voting your scum-reads, not voting for who I vote for.

Total shit. Total fucking shit. You should be trying to get your scum reads lynched, not playing dan the philosophy man. I don't know what this absurd desire for everyone to spoon feed you shit comes from, but it's a little new and a lot disturbing. Get your act together.

Acryon, you're town, and you appear to be better than dan the philosophy man, who do you actually want to lynch today now that you're done jacking off with your vote?

While I don't agree with your way of describing my vote, I'm unsure of who I want to lynch today. There are some good questions out right now and I suspect we will learn a lot in the next 48 hours as we hash some of those things out.

[acryon]

Well both of you are wrong about the wagon thing, then.
And I an sticking to my keyser read.

What is your reason for reading him as town other than meta?

[acryon]

Gut + Meta.

[acryon]

Ah finally. I can reveal the reason for my vote.

It's quite simple. Frozen Angel and RolePlay were bussing. I voted Frozen to put more pressure on her, hoping that if others piled on, we'd be able to see how much RolePlay really wanted to lynch her. I didn't want to tell my reasons then, because it would completely ruin any chance of getting an accurate read on RolePlay's intentions.

So how do I know that they were bussing? Consider:

- RolePlay makes some random early pressure on several players and then settles on Bloodking with a trumped-up case that he pushes hard. We've all seen how much RolePlay has "tunnelled" on the Bloodking/Frozen slot for most of the game by this point. Even Frozen admitted it.

- A reasonable explanation for this would be that RolePlay had agreed with Bloodking in scum pre-game chat to bus each other. It's a decent strategy, my scum partner and I won our first game with the same approach.

- But Bloodking goes AWOL. RolePlay is left bussing someone who isn't bussing back. This leaves RolePlay paralyzed because he has to keep bussing Bloodking on the assumption that he'll come back soon ... but Bloodking never comes back. Now RolePlay is left a bit out to dry but ...

- In comes Frozen to the rescue. Posts a bunch of fluffy comments to look like scum hunting and then, as her first action after this, in post 560, tells RolePlay:

"come drect on me RolePlay"

- So why did she post this? I'll tell you why. Frozen has access to the scum pre-chat and was able to read Bloodking and RolePlay's communication and knew they wanted to bus, but now that it's day she can't talk directly to RolePlay and so had to communicate her intention to continue the bus strategy. And there it was, in black and white. "come direct on me RolePlay".

- Immediately, RolePlay starts bussing her, hard. And she busses back, with lots of emotion and drama.

I started to get the feeling that there could be bussing here soon after these two started going at it, so I decided to make the game interesting by seeing if we could get Frozen close to L-1 and then see what RolePlay would do. If he dropped off the wagon, that would be further evidence - he doesn't want to really lynch Frozen, so he has to start acting uncertain ... which HE DOES, right around post 715. RolePlay is starting to beg Keyser to give him a reason to leave the Frozen wagon!

And Keyser doesn't play along; but RolePlay leaves anyway! 778

I am now 100% convinced that Frozen and RolePlay were bussing. I don't care which of Frozen or RolePlay goes first, but one of them has to go.

Quoting this both to ensure it isn't accidentally bumped by my post and also to comment. This is the kind of crazy trail that I would take in games, and I love it. That being said, given the very real possibility that you are wrong, which of the two would we be less sad about lynching as a townie? I think it's clear the answer is FA.

[acryon]

VOTE: FrozenAngel

[acryon]

Here's the thing. Someone needs to die today, and bji's idea is strong enough if it works out that its worth taking the chance over our other options.

[acryon]

yeah, Mis lynches are always the best Idea

No one is trying for a mislynch, but they happen. It's foolish to think we are going to get scum 100% of the time D1.

[acryon]

yeah, Mis lynches are always the best Idea

No one is trying for a mislynch, but they happen. It's foolish to think we are going to get scum 100% of the time D1.

But its foolish to lynch a slot with no evidence.

I'm getting lynched because of everyone else and my town flip will prove anything? NO! its just a waste ... You want to win ? try to lynch scum!

First of all, we're never really operating off concrete evidence, especially D1. We tend to operate off of assumptions, circumstances, etc.

Second, every lynch provides information, but no one is looking to lynch you for that. I currently think you are most likely to flip scum.

[acryon]

This is nonsense.

Gladiate golden009

I wouldn't do this if you would pay ANY attention to Golden.
Instead it's all the FA show when the emotion is the opposite of scummy.

Emotion is not the opposite of scummy. Emotion is null. Emotional people can be emotional as town or scum, and good players can manipulate it as either.

[acryon]

yeah, Mis lynches are always the best Idea

No one is trying for a mislynch, but they happen. It's foolish to think we are going to get scum 100% of the time D1.

But its foolish to lynch a slot with no evidence.

I'm getting lynched because of everyone else and my town flip will prove anything? NO! its just a waste ... You want to win ? try to lynch scum!

First of all, we're never really operating off concrete evidence, especially D1. We tend to operate off of assumptions, circumstances, etc.

Second, every lynch provides information, but no one is looking to lynch you for that. I currently think you are most likely to flip scum.

give me reasons for your current wrong reading ...

I already did? I believe bji's scenario is a very real possibility. I believe it is worth pursuing enough that it is better than our other options. Given his scenario, we are left with RP or you. I see RP being more helpful if he is town and bji's idea is incorrect, so that leaves me with you.

[acryon]

@acryon - how did you get from here:

Do you feel your vote is best-used on FA right now?

to here:

I'm unsure of who I want to lynch today.

to here:

VOTE: FrozenAngel

Someone needs to die today

Well the first one was just a question to feel you out, as we already discussed.

Both the first and second post were prior to bji's post. The final posts were after bji's post, I really like his idea, and "someone needs to die today" is just a fact. There's no great statement there.

[acryon]

Keyser, have you played with Acryon before?

Is he actually dumb enough to think that BJI's "theory" is anything other than a pile of fucking nonsense?

He hasn't, and I have had some crazy theories like bji's in my day, and I think the gain from being right versus the loss if we are wrong makes it totally worth it to try.

pedit so you voting me becuase someone bussed the shit out of me????! Really ? :/

I told you why I'm voting you.

[acryon]

"someone needs to die today" is just a fact.

also this is the best reason for jumping on a wagon , you know? (considering the fact 5 days remained)

Everyone has to jump on one at some point due to this fact. Just depends on when you're ready. I generally like to take plenty of time to wait, but I like the idea enough to go for it now. bji's post changed the game. You can't really ignore it.

[acryon]

Yeaaahhh, Keyser, I don't think he's actually that stupid.

I don't think I'm stupid either. Glad we are on the same page.

I told you why I'm voting you.

and I told you why that's funny.

any comments on that?

I think I've said all there is to say. I believe bji's scenario is worth pursuing. I think you are the best lynch given that. End of story.

[acryon]

The final posts were after bji's post, I really like his idea, and "someone needs to die today" is just a fact. There's no great statement there.

To confirm: YOU voted Frozen Angel because you think Frozen Angel and RolePlay25 are a

scum team

?

Yep. Seems better to me than the alternatives or potential alternatives we will find D1.

[acryon]

"someone needs to die today" is just a fact.

also this is the best reason for jumping on a wagon , you know? (considering the fact 5 days remained)

Everyone has to jump on one at some point due to this fact. Just depends on when you're ready. I generally like to take plenty of time to wait, but I like the idea enough to go for it now. bji's post changed the game. You can't really ignore it.

are you even trying to show your vote valid? because the only thing I can see is your stupid try to get behind bji

What is there to validate? I think he is scenario is probable enough to be worth pursuing given the risk and the alternatives. I'm not prideful enough to be unwilling to jump on someone's idea if its better than mine.

[acryon]

Man explain his idea to me please! I want to hear it from you!

This makes no sense. I have already explicitly stated I believed his idea. Why would I rehash it when he already explained it?

[acryon]

I'm unsure of who I want to lynch today.

Your subsequent actions do not reflect that position.

So why did acryon jump on: is Frozen Angel deadweight scum, or the inevitable miss-lynch?
Still reading.

If I were scum I would be concerned with not changing my mind on things. Since I'm town, I'm not. I'm just concerned with doing the thing that gives us the best chance of finding scum. Going after me because I changed my mind following a groundbreaking post doesn't make much sense.

[acryon]

Man explain his idea to me please! I want to hear it from you!

This makes no sense. I have already explicitly stated I believed his idea. Why would I rehash it when he already explained it?

Because I believe you planed it before contributing it inside the tread!

The Idea is just as absurd as ....

I must be lynched because you believe someone else were busying me?!!! and my flip will tell you what in this case?!!!

I planned what?

[acryon]

The idea goes like this. In a town with Golden, Supercool, you, Diego, RadiantCowbells, and TheCow scum!Me decided that the correct course of action was to bus you rather than mislynching one of those absurdly easy targets. When you replace in, instead of backing off, like two other players chose to, I went full force with someone I've literally never played with before immediately, in a rapid fire exchange, and you are a good enough actor that you put up this front during that.

I dunno if that makes BJI scum. Willful blindness is scummy, but inconcievable retardation is a town tell.

Acryon buying that load of horseshit is a bridge too far.

At what point did FA stop being scum to you?

[acryon]

BEST REASON FOR BEING TOWN READED YOU KNOW THAT?

VOTE: acryon

yeah count it OMGUS I know you will , But I'm lynching my strongest scum read right now.

I'm sure you don't even know what are you getting behind of

I didn't say you should town-read me for changing my mind, but you certainly shouldn't scum-read me for changing it. And you are correct that I will call it OMGUS.

Ohhhh Acryon, haven't you been reading? You really should be reading if you want to try these little slides around me

I have, but I want you to remind me, because I would think it would take a lot more than that to get off to the point you are now.

[acryon]

I'm not voting you becuase your voting me or you changed your vote! I don't even care!

I'm voting you because you have no idea why are you voting me right now!

I know exactly why I am voting you and have explicitly stated numerous times why. You can cast shade here but I'm sure any sensible townie will understand what's happening.

Also come on bji! You drop a bomb that I agree with and now you're not even here to take some of this heat?

[acryon]

I'm misrepresenting who? are you even reading his posts ?

nah I know your scum with him

Now you are misrepresenting me too. Acyron agrees with bji's conspiracy theory and has decided that the reward is greater than the risk. Honestly I agree with the latter part too

Thank you supercool. I was afraid I was running out of ways to say the exact same thing.

[acryon]

Ohhhh Acryon, haven't you been reading? You really should be reading if you want to try these little slides around me

I have, but I want you to remind me, because I would think it would take a lot more than that to get off to the point you are now.

Yes, you don't understand me. You never have actually bothered to try to understand me. You assumed you understood me.

A mistake that shall prove fatal.

I guess we'll see. Although only one faction I know has the power to threaten.

[acryon]

I currently think you are most likely to flip scum.

Show me why.

I already said why. I think bji's case is the best by far of any other info available, meaning I think FA/RP are equally likely to flip scum. Given those two, I think we lose less mislynching FA.

[acryon]

No the case on him is that he never knew what is he agreeing on!

he just went forward and joined my wagon behind someone else.

I did know what I was agreeing to. I read the post. I agreed. I assessed. I voted. It's not a deep web of connections; it's fairly straight-forward.

[acryon]

I think we lose less mislynching FA.

should I say anything more?!!!

Do I really have to explain this explicitly? Given two equal scum-reads, there must be a tie-breaker. The most logical for me is: if the two are town, which one would the town be hurt more by not being around?

[acryon]

Day 2: "It looks like Fallen Angel is town. Man, that tells us a lot about BJI's alignment"

See how that goes?

I'm not sure what your point is here, but of course I don't agree with that logic.

[acryon]

The whole BJI case is valid if both are scum.

your assuming me as a mislynch.

should I say anything more?!!!!

How did I assume you were a mislynch? I don't mean to be disrespectful, but do we just have a big language barrier issue going on here?

[acryon]

I currently think you are

most likely to flip scum

.

Show me why.

I already said why. I think bji's case is the best by far of any other info available, meaning I think FA/RP are equally likely to flip scum. Given those two, I think we lose less mislynching FA.

No, tell me why Frozen Angel is most likely to flip scum.

What if bji had chosen 2 other names, would your stance still be the same (i.e 'somebody needs to die Day One'), or can you highlight what makes Frozen Angel more likely to flip scum more than anyone else?

Well no it wouldn't be the same because the same tension hasn't existed between two others. I think FA/RP are more likely to flip scum because the relation painted by bji is more likely and worth the risk of pursuing than any other ideas at present.

[acryon]

You said I'm a better mislynch didn't you?

Mislynches are an unfortunate reality, but they are a reality nonetheless. It would be foolish to not consider them in my decision, especially D1 when the chance of mislynch is so high.

[acryon]

WELL Acryon - supercool never engaged in a conversation in the whole damn thread.

ONLY once!

look at these trusre posts and you see what I mean :

the word "super" was 26 timed mentioned in arc Iso (more than half other peoples quote)

I am very confused at what your point/conclusion is here.

[acryon]

Interestingly Keyser,

the person this makes not look good is you

. The only wagon you're not on is

supercool's

who was twice on the same one as you. Do you generally jump on every wagon that comes along?

Do you feel your vote is best-used on FA right now?

"not look good"?
Now that I've unvoted Frozen Angel, do I look good now?
Or should I "best-use" my vote on supercool898?
Why weren't my previous scum-reads not "worth the risk of pursuing"?

Because they were weaker than bji's. I believe bji's scenario here is more likely/worth the risk than any previous wagons/cases.

I only said you didn't look good in the context of those wagons, which you yourself exhorted others to examine. There's a reason I never voted for you; I didn't and still don't think you are scum. I was merely commenting on what I thought was interesting in what you presented.

[acryon]

I feel as though I have been very transparent about the stark change in my reads? Bji's post changed the game dramatically for me. It opened up a possibility that I felt was far more likely than what I had been considering. It did require me to change my feelings on BK/FA especially, but I am not foolish enough to think I have it all figured out so that's ok with me.

I felt like you were using the fact I wasn't on the supercool898 wagon as something against me (i.e. "not look good").

I was pointing out that if anything were to be drawn from those wagon votes, it was some sort of you/super connection that makes you specifically look bad, but that doesn't mean I had conviction about that being the case. I think I was clear about that and have been so since, having never stated I felt you were scum. There is a difference between "I think you look scummy based on the dynamic of you/supercool re: wagons" and "if anyone looks bad from the wagon VCA, it is you". One is an accusation, the other is an observation. I was doing the latter because I don't believe you are scum.

[acryon]

Roleplay and FA were mortal enemies but now they are both voting for acry? umm..
The bussing theory before flips is really bad but then they both fight together for an acry lynch.
I am going to keep my vote on FA

Ah, a fanciful theory discussion if I may. I wish to propose an idea. During this game, I have gone through the exercise of asking myself "is this player scum?" about 12 players.

I will have asked myself this about 9 town players, assuming this setup seems vaguely similar to the standard setups, which I may hope it would be.

The goal is not to be so timid that one does not challenge before 100% certainty, the goal is to end the day with 7 votes on a scum player.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but it is seeming to downplay your push on FA, which I believe would be very disingenuous.

[acryon]

I feel as though I have been very transparent about the stark change in my reads? Bji's post changed the game dramatically for me. It opened up a possibility that I felt was far more likely than what I had been considering. It did require me to change my feelings on BK/FA especially, but I am not foolish enough to think I have it all figured out so that's ok with me.

Ah, an epiphany! I love those! I too have had an epiphany about Frozen Angel, especially considering the people voting her. I propose a simple idea, to test the strength of belief in our epiphanies.

If someone has a vigilante shot, and Frozen Angel is scum, I wish to be shot tonight.
If someone has a vigilante shot, and Frozen Angel is town, shoot Acryon tonight.

How say you about your epiphany? Do you wish to sign on?

These are so stupid, and actively anti-town.

[acryon]

Why would town

ever

make a statement like that? It doesn't mean anything; it's just posturing.

[acryon]

These are so stupid, and actively anti-town.

Are they? I believe BJI's theory changed the very nature of your thoughts on the game. I am scum with Frozen Angel, am I not? So this would give you two scum kills, would it not?

Let's save some time and a Radiant Cowbell's vig shot friends

@RC:

Keyser hasn't been voting for me for ages. And this guy has a wonderful patina of fear. I mean I wouldn't mind you shooting him tonight in any case, but we could just lynch him too.

But I am not and never would claim to be omniscient. So why in the world would I offer myself up on something that I have no way of knowing 100%. This is common sense.

[acryon]

Conclusion

acryon, doesn't vote for who he thinks is scum. [

acryon votes for who is the best miss-lynch.

]

What? I've stated the opposite of this multiple times.

acryon thought the wagons I voted (RolePlay25, golden009 and BL0ODK1NG) and the wagon I didn't vote (supercool898) made me "look the worst" / "not look good". [

acryon is in no position to say this without any flips. How does he know which wagons are 'good' or bad?

]

I've also said multiple times that I was merely humoring

your

exhortation for preliminary VCA on the major wagons.

acryon stated he was "unsure" of who to vote for with 5 days left to deadline. But then votes Frozen Angel in faith that Frozen Angel and RolePlay25 are scum partners, two players he does not scum-read individually [

I would expect a townie who was unsure to keep digging and scum-hunting before thinking about who made the best "miss-lynch".

]

As again I've already stated, bji's scenario changed the game for me, and it's only looked better since. Not sure how many times I have to explain that I am

not

voting for someone due to them being the best mis-lynch, and if you believe that then I just don't know what to say.

So, is acryon bad-town, or opportunistic scum?

VOTE: acryon

If FA gets lynched and flips scum and then RP follows, am I still bad-town?

What happened to you Keyser? You started off scum-hunting and now you've gone on auto-pilot... You can't possibly believe these conclusions if you truly think about them.

I imagine there is other nonsense to address in the last couple pages, but figured I'd address this most recent one for now.

[acryon]

I didn't say that, but nice try. I asked why you would propose that

if you are town

. Sorry I guess I thought that was implied in my previous post. If you're town, you have no reason to wish for this ultimatum to come true because you'll be damning yourself to a mislynch if FA is scum, and damning another player to be killed with no further discussion if FA is town.

Yes, I will. And Acryon will be damning himself to death if FA is town. And he's not willing to do that. He's not willing to do that at all, even though he is amazed by his epiphany.

Of course I'm not willing to do that. I hope any townie is able to clearly see why this is so terrible.

Your analysis, as usual, is total shit.

Preserving townies is an illusion.

Town players will die. Town players will die in great number, before the game ends, that is the nature of mafia. What rate am I comfortable having town die in? Well, let me check. We have 10 town and 3 scum, yes?

I am happy to lose 3 town players for every scum death, that will result in victory 100% of the time.

Think a little next time bji.

But your scenario does

not

ensure a scum-lynch, even with the 3 townies deaths.

Any townie willing to buy into this nonsense is not thinking it through.

Yeah, that's

functional fucking retardation

is what that is. You know what the ratio was in your two other normal? 10:3. You know what the ratio is in 95% of every 13 player mini normal on this site? 10:3. Exceptions are basically for 9:3:1, and if you want to go serial killer hunting on day 1 I will stake you out and burn you myself. I don't give a flying fuck if you don't care about meta, but understand basic facts. It is 10:3 until PROVEN otherwise, and proof must come in VERY CONVINCING form.

@Mod

: Can we get some warning on this? RP has been toeing (and IMO crossing the line in some instances) all game. I think it better get stopped before it gets worse.

[acryon]

Please answer the following questionaire:

Show me why RolePlay25 is scum (with quotes and thought-process).
Show me why Frozen Angel is scum (with quotes and thought-process).
Show me why RolePlay25 and Frozen Angel are scum partners (with quotes and thought-process).
Show me why no one else who was on Frozen Angel's wagon, could not be bussing her either (with quotes and thought-process).

If any of your answers are,

'someone needs to die today'

or

'we lose less mislynching them'

, then kindly get the f**k off my plane

Realized I skipped this. But I think I made clear why I am voting. I am sheeping bji because his post makes enough sense that it's worth pursuing over any other leads I have. Are you asking me to rehash the argument and post he already made? Because I'm not going to do that.

A question for you: is it not at all curious to you that RP would push so vehemently on FA, and then completely back off?

[acryon]

I'm voting scum yo. I don't know what everyone else is on.

Can you please do me a favor and open Acryon ISO and read it for me? Then can you please search "Super" name in his ISO (for searching Supercool).

and then come back here and tell me what do you see there?

Maybe you should have done better research popping into this game, because if you did it would be clear I defended

your

slot more than I ever defended sueprcool.

[acryon]

I said you defended him? I'm saying you two never had any kind of direct interactions.

Wait, are you kidding? Not only is this just a silly notion, but its patently false.

Apparently he has other accounts that have a game or two on them, but probably not many. I personally am thinking he is a noob town right now.

I don't think you can really describe him as noob town when he says things like "I would be surprised, considering that I've never really seen that work" and "I just wouldn't have expected that part of the meta to change." His total experience may be lower than some, but he is not a noob.

[Currently writing...]

@Keyser: I liked you better when you asked questions rather than just posting ISO-analysis.

No one answers my questions Got a few pending questions still to be answered too.
The ISO shit is something I do to consolidate my read on someone. Sometimes I miss things when I'm too distracted.

Once I catch up (in fact, when more than half of the players catch up - what are you guys all waiting for?) I'll be online to chat. Felt like I was going round in circles yesterday talking to myself

Oh keyser, did I ever answer your question about my reads on acyron and RC? I think I started answering it at some point but might not have hit submit

Not Keyser, but you did in 259.

I really hope nobody actually thinks scum will quickhammer on D1. That would be insanity for scum players to reveal themselves that early. What will happen if this wagon really takes off is either BK gets to L-1 and which point you unvote him, or BK gets to L-1 where someone announces intent to hammer at which point you retract your vote. Unless you go MIA for a long period of time or something, BK will not get lynched with your vote on him.

I'm not worried about scum quickhammering; I'm worried about town doing it. People like RC this game/VIs clearly don't have an interest in being helpful, so I have seen them quickhammer. There is also the possibility of someone coming in that's been away, not realizing how many votes BK has, and accidentally hammering. No one should be put to L-1 unless the person putting them there is ready for them to die.

@supercool: Of the people on your wagon, how do you feel about each of their perceived or stated reasons for being there? Who's scum? Who's town?

@supercool: Of the people on your wagon, how do you feel about each of their perceived or stated reasons for being there? Who's scum? Who's town?

I think that FA, mala, and maybe cow are scum. Titus is a null read for me, since she and neumune haven't really said much yet. I'm waiting for her to catch up with the game.

You really think that three of the four people on your wagon are scum/maybe scum?

[acryon]

So you call these questions as trying to solve him out really?

only 5 posts in your 115 posts ... and the only try I can see is in the last one ... which you never even continued it ...

Well for one, that's not the statement you were trying to make. You said:

I said you defended him? I'm saying you two never had any kind of direct interactions.

which we've seen is clearly untrue.

As for what your supposed point really was, is it your expectation that every player has pointed questions at every other player in an effort to figure them out? I ask questions and comment where it seems like it will give good info.

If that is your issue, then I'm not sure why you tried to make some supercool/me connection as I'm sure there are other players I pointed comments/questions at even less.

[acryon]

Sorry FA, but I think it's clear you're lost on this one. I think your OMGUS is beginning to look like what it is.

[acryon]

and yeah i searched everyone else keyser :

number of results after search :

Mario : 9
Golden : 55
Bloodking : 35 , Frozen Angel : 67
Keyser : 76
Dweele : 26
RP : 22 + Roleplay : 116 = 138
Radiant : 10
bji : 47
Neumune : 5 ,Titus : 4
Cow : 19
Mala : 8

he is to concentrated in his reads ... ^

Are you truly just searching for the names... Do you realize this includes every mention anyone has made within anything I have ever quoted. Do you not understand how flawed this is?

[acryon]

and no, you two never had any kind of conversations so far. only some comments , questions (5?!)

and no! I'm scumreading you independently - But I'm kind of sure about the scum team atm

I just did a quick search of myself for cow and it turns out I've only talked to him twice?! Book me boys! Cow/Acryon scumteam confirmed.

[acryon]

Thankfully I think this town is experienced enough to not follow this nonsense, so I'm not too worried about defending too hard be honest.

[acryon]

and no It includes all the responses - all the communications you had directly - or indirectly with people - not flawed at all

Very flawed considering that I just looked for cow and your method says 19 times and I have talked to him twice and maybe about him one other time.

[acryon]

Taking a break for a bit until some others can enter the fray. We need some more reason in here.

[acryon]

Can I get a list of words that are PG so no kiddies get offended?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14372
This part is of particular note.

Certain words which are particularly offensive to a group of people (by race, gender, sexual orientation, or mental capacity) may be deleted on sight depending on the context.

It's not about being offended; it's bout understanding how to play the game without resorting to words that are disrespectful. This is how things work as an adult.

[acryon]

Okay. Well very respectfully then and in a racially neutral manner, I'm going to lynch you because you're scum

That's nicer, although you're wrong.

[acryon]

I took a step back and looked at her wagon: it had become more scummy than the initial reasons why I voted BL0ODK1NG in the first place.
Also, factor in Frozen Angel's personal message about her illness.

You can't make in-game decisions based on outside factors. You're essentially not playing the game at that point.

[acryon]

and yeah i searched everyone else keyser :

number of results after search :

Mario : 9
Golden : 55
Bloodking : 35 , Frozen Angel : 67
Keyser : 76
Dweele : 26
RP : 22 + Roleplay : 116 = 138
Radiant : 10
bji : 47
Neumune : 5 ,Titus : 4
Cow : 19
Mala : 8

he is to concentrated in his reads ... ^

Let's come back to hear if/when supercool898 flips red.

Do you want to lynch supercool898 or acryon?

You don't truly think that list has

any

weight to it, do you? You can't possibly. If you do, please address my prior concerns with it.

[acryon]

You can't make in-game decisions based on outside factors. You're essentially not playing the game at that point.

I was scum-reading Frozen Angel's slot because of BL0ODK1NG. I no longer scum-read that slot.
Why do you think Frozen Angel revealed personal details about her illness? As cover for her "scum-partnership" with RolePlay25? That is f*****g disgusting.
I do not think Frozen Angel and RolePlay25 are scum partners.

I'm forced to treat it as a null, because it shouldn't play a part in the game.

[acryon]

You don't truly think that list has

any

weight to it, do you? You can't possibly. If you do, please address my prior concerns with it.

Not until someone flips red.
Everyone keeps pulling up supercool898's name.
If supercool898 flips scum, I will certainly be scrutinizing everyone's interactions with him.
Until then, lynching someone on the hope that supercool898 is scum is ill-advised.
The same way I freaked out when you said me not being on supercool898's wagon was "looking worst" and "not good".
I was very close to voting supercool898 back then to call your bluff, but voting on pre-flip association BS is bad-town.
Why da f**k is supercool898 being thrown about as the living definition of scum/bad/evil?

For my case, the only reason I commented on him is because of the 4 major wagons you noted, his was the only one where you were not present. Again, nothing groundbreaking, just a note.

And my question is do you truly believe searching someone's ISO and doing a Ctrl + F is a good or at all accurate way to gauge engagement with each player? (By the way I've already proven that it's not)

[acryon]

For my case, the only reason I commented on him is because of the 4 major wagons you noted, his was the only one where you were not present. Again, nothing groundbreaking, just a note.

The neutral observation was "his was the only one where you were not present". Agreed.

But then you gave it negative connotations by saying I "look the worst" / "not look good".

Why the f**k did you remark that I 'looked the worst', that it did "not look good"? You added your personal opinion to a neutral observation.

That

is where the ground broke for me.

Fair enough, but I was attempting to merely speak objectively, hence the lack of any further pushing or voting on you.

I'm forced to treat it as a

null

, because it shouldn't play a part in the game.

In your own words, show me the scum-indicative factors that help to reveal the Frozen Angel-RolePlay25 scum partnership. I will then analysis them to say if they are "null" or "scum" indicative.

Not sure how many times I have to say this, but I'm not going to rehash what bji said. I agreed with his analysis, and jumped on. If you'd like to talk about his post, fine. Quote what you have a problem with and let's talk about how his is not more worth pursuing than other leads.

[acryon]

wow okay.
Can we hold the ball for a moment?
Roleplay is town. Frozen Angel is town.
Golden009 is not town.

What reason (other than emotion, which is a firm null) do you have to believe FA specifically is town?

[acryon]

What reason (other than emotion, which is a firm null) do you have to believe FA specifically is town?

What reason (other than the fact I got tunneled by Roleplay which is a firm null about my slot) do you have to believe I specifically am Scum ?

Lol the relation between you and RP is not a firm null; it is very much up for debate. Emotion being a tell either way, however, is not. And the reason I asked the question of him specifically is because I believe he mentioned emotion being a towntell in the context of your slot, which it is not.

[acryon]

Not sure how many times I have to say this, but I'm not going to rehash what bji said. I agreed with his analysis, and jumped on. If you'd like to talk about his post, fine. Quote what you have a problem with and let's talk about how his is not more worth pursuing than other leads.

Not sure how many time I accused you for just being opportunistic on a jump and find no one better than bji to get behind ...

You may want to start talking by yourself ...

Hold on a second. Of all the wagons that have existed in this game, I'm opportunistic because I jumped on bji's wild theory? Are you kidding? Opportunistic would have meant jumping on any one of the many very easy wagons that existed this game. I jumped on bji's because I liked it and it seemed much more worth it than any of the others.

[acryon]

I cannot talk to FA anymore. Not sure if its the language barrier, inexperience, or what, but it's just nonsense after nonsense here. Someone lynch her or lynch me, because I can't imagine staying in a town with this player for more than a day.

[acryon]

Acryon what the hell?!!!!

why you feel that way? I apologise if I did anything bothering you. pLease !

I don't want you to take anything personally either, but something is just not getting through. And I'm not sure if its playstyle or alignment, but it makes it very hard for me to communicate/play. I'm not leaving, but I am going to back off a bit and let some others sound off. One can only take so much back-and-forth on things they believe are crystal clear.

[acryon]

Spoiler:

Please read my wiki page

I think I can't hold on anymore either. for now.

I know and I understand that. I don't want you to think this is personal, and it's honestly probably mostly just frustration I have to work through on my own.

[acryon]

Dude Roleplay's town.

Who are you?

Also, VOTE: Titus. Come on town.

[acryon]

VOTE: unvote

As some may have guessed, I am not in fact cop, nor do I have a guilty on Titus.

I'm still processing what happened so I'm not anywhere near a verdict yet, but I'm thinking FA and BJI are both scum.

Are you kidding me? Well now I have another person on my list of people to absolutely avoid in any games I play. This claim was stupid, because now if we don't get scum tonight, you are almost definitely going to get lynched tomorrow because no one can trust you. If we do get scum tonight, then things are a bit different, but I still think the claim wasn't worth it.

I won't hard claim my role. But RC is town.

What? It doesn't matter what your role is now. If you state that you are claiming something, mafia is going to kill you tonight. It's far more beneficial for town if you actually claim now. Anyone who thinks me or RC are rolefishing on this, just think about it.

w/e

FA got her report out and I'm good with being cleared. I won't pry.

I'm not sure where to vote now though.

Again, are you kidding me? You are ridiculous enough to fake-claim cop and out someone, but then someone soft-claims, says you are fine so now you aren't going to pry?

Ugh this game. I don't even want to comment on the last page other than to say I have never been in such a terrible game. Either RC and FA are both great scum-actors, or they are playing the sloppiest (whether intentional or not) games of town I have ever seen.

UNVOTE:

Back to where it belongs, VOTE: Frozen Angel

[acryon]

What? It doesn't matter what your role is now. If you state that you are claiming something, mafia is going to kill you tonight. It's far more beneficial for town if you actually claim now. Anyone who thinks me or RC are rolefishing on this, just think about it.

I see your point; although at this point I doubt I would believe FA's claim anyway.

Well scum knows if FA is town or not, and if FA is town, then her claim is most likely legitimate, which means they kill her tonight. At least if she actually claims, we as a town can analyze it and determine its likelihood of legitimacy. At this point scum has already gained from her claim, so town might as well gain from it too.

Ugh this game. I don't even want to comment on the last page other than to say I have never been in such a terrible game. Either RC and FA are both great scum-actors, or they are playing the sloppiest (whether intentional or not) games of town I have ever seen.

I agree, but I believe that these things don't just happen by chance. I think that the mafia team is actively working to sow this confusion, which is why my vote is on RC. Can you explain why you think FA is the better lynch choice? Is it just residual conviction left over from yesterday, or something that happened today?

It's hard to say. Players do legitimately play sloppy/badly. This does happen. My reason for voting FA is a mixture of the two. I still felt she was a fine lynch choice yesterday, and then her comments today have felt much of the same. Her reaction to the claim didn't feel entirely genuine. Her weird softclaim just does nothing for me, so even if my vote gets her to actually claim, then that's good too because she's as good as dead at this point if she is town anyway.

[acryon]

I know my role I know if its beneficial for town to hard claim it or not.

so please stop role fishing and play your game if your town.

w8 , I think your not.

VOTE: Acryon

note : If I died tonight you can analyze the real clues I put there in my posts. I'm sure I did that enough . So you might wanna judge me after the game?

Wasn't a lot of your push on me predicated on a me/supercool scum team?

Your role is irrelevant to whether or not its beneficial for town to hard claim or not. It is almost never beneficial to softclaim like you did (and certainly isn't here), so if you care about town, you'll hardclaim now. All you're doing right now is sowing confusion, like bji said. If your desire is for town to succeed, stop the nonsense and claim. If you are town, only scum is currently benefiting from your softclaim.

[acryon]

I scum readed you and supercool separately. and I was thinking about a very possible scum team there. don't mix things up.

I was drunk :/ yeah I'm sorry about sof claim. But no , I won't hand claim now and I know its not beneficial for town.

Considering you were urging everyone to vote for me based on the idea of "look at this interactions with supercool", I don't think this is quite true.

Also it's unfortunate that you softclaimed at all, but now it's already done and the optimal thing to do is hardclaim, because it will actually give us something to analyze. All your softclaim did was add confusion to the game. Do you not understand that scumteams thrive on confusion within a town? I would never advocate claiming normally, but you already screwed up and softclaimed, so its too late and now you need to hardclaim to at least give the town something useful today.

[acryon]

Its not optimal. and you don't know why until you see my flip. No role fishing town. I won't hard claim.

and NO you can go back and see that I was scumreading you because of your awful sheeping me behind bji reason.

But I was really scumreading Super and I'm really ashamed of it.

You're just flat wrong on this claiming business. You not claiming is going to make it more difficult for town to sort things out today, and if you are actually town, you are either going to A) die tonight or B) be left alive by scum which will just make things

more

confusing for town.

[acryon]

But I already said enough. Only scum wants to know more details atm.

go back and see what I claimed.

Your seriously trying hard to make me confess the role. I won't give the scum the satisfaction.

in situation A ) They will know everything after my flip

in situation B ) I will hard claim tomorrow

fair enough?

What more details could scum possibly need? They have all they need, which is that you are a PR. And no that isn’t fair enough, because we are then SOL of info today.

There is not any more info you could provide that is helpful to scum. There

is

more info that is helpful to town

.

[acryon]

Acryon, you're town.

Thoughts on BJI?

I think he is town. I just don't see the scum-motivation in some of his posts. His grand ideas just seem too far-fetched when there are so many other paths of less resistance for scum.

I said I want the hammer vote remember?

and I was testing acryon.

I want a reason why he wants my exact role.

I already told you reasons why...

[acryon]

I already told you reasons why...

and those are absurd. I already shared my reads. thats all town need atm

How are they absurd? Tell me, specifically how the mafia will gain from your actual role being stated that they didn't already gain from your softclaim? And tell me why you hard claiming won't make things more clear for town?

[acryon]

My hard claim will clear SO MUCH.

I won't do that for scum.

I asked you

what

it will clear up for scum. They are going to kill you tonight either way if you are town, so I don't understand what they could possibly gain from knowing now versus knowing tonight.

[acryon]

You will understand tonight as well ?

It won't help town today as I already shared my result. I promise that.

How will it not help? We don't believe you right now. You're the shadiest person in the game and your green-check was on the second shadiest person in the game. Forgive me if we require more info from you for you to be believed.

[acryon]

Wow, I've had family members die of cancer too! Lets start a club where we all find various things to be offended about it will be good times!

I think the word lynching is racist.

You realize

you

are the one making this a big deal by constantly talking about it. How about just play the game and stop prodding people?

[acryon]

What's going on is I'm officially policy lynching Roleplay for being a jerk.

So there's that.
It doesn't matter how town I think someone is but when a lines been crossed that's t

I'm going to ask you for the sake of the game to not do this Mala. If you want to file a formal complaint, fine, but let's keep the game the game.

[acryon]

You will understand tonight as well ?

It won't help town today as I already shared my result. I promise that.

How will it not help? We don't believe you right now. You're the shadiest person in the game and your green-check was on the second shadiest person in the game. Forgive me if we require more info from you for you to be believed.

i'm shadiest people? I'm the only one who role claimed and Told her results ... are you blind or ignoring my last posts?

Seriously I was thinking you really can't see my really obvious leads in my last posts?

Why are you asking for me stating that again? Its obviously scum motivated to be sure what your dealing with at night. scums not like my WIFOM's don't they?

I already soft claimed my role - and I already stated my night results.

I'm sorry but how exactly is softclaiming a role

not

shady? Why would it matter to scum what they are dealing with at night? They hear you are a PR and boom, you're dead. That's that. It's not like they can find out exactly what PR you are and kill you harder.

[acryon]

AND I DEFINITELY WON'T SAY MORE.

you can see my flip or take my hard claim tomorrow.

If you're going to make us waste time getting you to the point of lynching before you claim then fine I guess, but I'd rather us not waste all that time.

[acryon]

Yes, I'm a "jerk." For repeatedly pointing out how ridiculous your actions are in a town context.

That's what you'd like people to think. You're scum, and this is scum play. It's that simple.

Town, let me ask you - if you had absolutely zero time to play mafia for at least a week, would you replace into a game? Is it something that would ever cross your mind to do?

What does that have to do with alignment? She didn't know what alignment the role was before replacing in.

[acryon]

I don't really want to say anything about FA right now so as not to suggest scum strategy.

I don't think it would be in error to let her live another night and see what happens.

Yes, I've already mentioned this as a possibility, which is why it's critical that she claim today so town can work with that information.

[acryon]

I'm sorry but how exactly is softclaiming a role not shady? Why would it matter to scum what they are dealing with at night? They hear you are a PR and boom, you're dead. That's that. It's not like they can find out exactly what PR you are and kill you harder.

DUH

What if they can't kill me at all?! I won't tell them if they can or they can't <= WIFOM.

and this is interesting because I already stated my result (not telling a not guilty on RC) something else. if your blind town that's not my problem.
if your scum you need to die.

If they can't kill you at all, then we somehow have a normal game where the town has a Roleblocker, a Doctor, and some sort of bulletproof cop, which sounds like the best role ever, and would mean we have a confirmed unkillable town.

AND I DEFINITELY WON'T SAY MORE.

you can see my flip or take my hard claim tomorrow.

If you're going to make us waste time getting you to the point of lynching before you claim then fine I guess, but I'd rather us not waste all that time.

Are you threatening me?

Yep.

[acryon]

Urgh.

I'm setting town up for some real consternation later down the line.

Maybe FA should in fact claim today.

Yes, she should. She f'd up in the first place by softclaiming, but now we need the hardclaim or this whole day is screwed.

[acryon]

If she's cop then town already has her result if she dies.
If she's cop and lives, then she gets another investigate.

She won't live.

If she's not, then she eats a NK and a potential mislynch dies.
If she's not and lives, then she claims tomorrow that she was wifoming and it doesn't change anything.

If she's not and is town, then screw this game anyway because we have no chance of winning when we have multiple townies fakeclaiming.

[acryon]

FA seems very confident right now and I was unable to get any sort of rise out of her. FA seems to believe her own claim, at the very least. For that reason I have them as "probable town", and what not.

Well how can you not believe your own claim? You can't fakeclaim and then back down. This is a bad reason for getting off her.

[acryon]

She won't live.

Then
1) she dies
2) we know that I'm cleared

I don't see the issue with this.

The issue is that we can't ignore her for today. I'm surely not going to. I let the town walk into a stupid lynch yesterday instead of going after FA, and I'm not interested in letting that happen again. There have been so many diversions that this game has been a cakewalk for scum so far.

Well how can you not believe your own claim? You can't fakeclaim and then back down. This is a bad reason for getting off her.

There is a level of confidence in the claim.

I'm not sure what to think of FA but I think leaving her alive for a night phase could be productive.

There has been a level of confidence in everything she has done today, but confident =/= town, especially when it comes to a claim because your only choice is to stand hard by it. It's only even possibly productive if she is town, which I don't think she is.

[acryon]

The issue is that we can't ignore her for today. I'm surely not going to. I let the town walk into a stupid lynch yesterday instead of going after FA, and I'm not interested in letting that happen again. There have been so many diversions that this game has been a cakewalk for scum so far.

Look, I'm not townreading the FA slot either and I'll say that openly. Some real weirdness with her knowing my claim is fake

HOWEVER.

If she's town and cop she's in a situation where she may indeed live another day and get another invest off, and that's always good.

If she's not, she could bait a NK onto herself, when she's already heavily scumread and thus prevent her own mislynch.

If she's scum, we force her into a claim tomorrow.

:\

Let's talk. FA said she was jumping on to your claim and voted Titus along with you. Then after you backed down, unvoted and said that she guess you were fake-claiming. Then said the way you fakeclaimed made her think of your scum game. Then said you are town...

Tell me how any of this is real progression?

[acryon]

Hey FA, do you notice how you keep contributing to the game under pressure? That's because you're town. Mala kittens has under no pressure decided to not contribute a damn thing, after a week of not contributing a damn thing. Do you see the difference? I do.

Can you tell me how activity is alignment-indicative? You apparently think she is lying about her RL and isn't busy like she says she is, and that this just happened to line up with her randomly replacing into a scum-slot. How would busy town-Mala act differently here?

[acryon]

I don't recall saying that I townread her.

I'm not asking you to townread her. I'm asking you to scumread her.

[acryon]

Activity isn't the only reason to scumread

Kitten

Mala.

Let's hear them later, but I want to talk about FA first.

[acryon]

Oh she's not lying about what she's doing in real life. She's exaggerating its impact on her time. She replaced in thinking "I'll have time to handle that, just barely, only one game and it will be fun." Then she drew scum. I doubt she likes playing scum. So it became a convenient excuse. Same with her town read on FA. She knows FA is town, she likes FA but she doesn't want her neck out to save a townie, so we get this vague stuff. The vote on Cow was literally pitiful.

What's in her posts, Acryon? Wastelands of nothing. And she uses the posts she admits she barely gets a chance to make to what? Complain people are making jokes and vote for "being a jerk"?

To be honest, most of what you're saying isn't off, but I still don't think she's where I want to be voting right now. There are bigger fish to fry, like FA.

Town mala wouldn't let "outrage" get in the way of playing the game and would offer actual interesting posts, infrequently.

Can you cite an example of this scenario in a previous game?

[acryon]

SEE ACRYON YOUR NOT SEEING IT.

GO BACK AND REREAD.

I did.

I SAID WHY I KNEW RC IS LYING WITH HIS CLAIM . AND I ANSWERED WHY I THOUGHT TRUSTING HIM IS MY BEST OPTION ATM.

YOU SAW NEITHER.

SO GO BACK AND REREAD. I ANSWERED ALL THE QUESTIONS YOUR ASKING ME.

I don’t think “I was drunk” is a legit defense in mafia.

[acryon]

I said my reason why I thought trusting RC is my best option atm ................

why are you mixing everything up?

pedit : nah

To be fair, you are all over the place.

Question: hypothetically if you are the cop, why would you assume that someone else fake-claiming cop is town?

[acryon]

you need to move off my wagon to do something right.

pressuring me is not in towns favor. I already said enough clues. my hard claim is not the best option for town.

You essentially hardclaimed cop in 1325, but it is important that you actually claim.

[acryon]

Question: hypothetically if you are the cop, why would you assume that someone else fake-claiming cop is town?

Apparently she had an inno on me <3

But she said she didn't... She just said the reason why was because what you did seemed town.

[acryon]

pedit : I'm gonna seriously kill myself after this game ...

Don't say things like that.

My vote is staying on you.

[acryon]

Stop being blind ... and think!

I said I knew RC was not cop.

that means I'm cop?

End of discussion. I won't say anything else. even if you lynch me. i really don't care a town loose if town is really that stupid to lynch me.

good night. I really need some sleep.

If you are cop, then it is critical you claim today, because if you die tonight we need to know who you checked last night and what kind of result you got.

[acryon]

The softclaim happened, so it's too late for being coy.

[acryon]

You can even conclude my role.

I don't understand your issue with claiming at this point. If it's really so clear what's happening, then scum would get that too.

[acryon]

@RC: Why did you admit your claim was fake when you did? Why not ride it out a bit more? It doesn't seem like we ended up with much from it.

@RP: I will be the town leader, but you have to think I'm town for that to work. Also, let's just say we didn't want to lynch mala today. Who is #2 right now?

[acryon]

Acryon, your vote has no power. No one fears it. It sits on fallen angel, yet she does not fear lynch, for she knows it is nothing but hot air.

You, lead the town? Pah. You fool, you lead nothing. Even scum wouldn't follow something that hollow.

Feel free to answer my question next time.

[acryon]

Because I couldn't get into what I wanted to get into with the fakeclaim active, which was BJI.

But wasn't the point of the fakeclaim to get reactions? Why bother getting into something with BJI if your fakeclaim still had some mileage?

[acryon]

Aaaare you kidding me.... Well town officially has no chance to win when everyone and their mother are fake-claiming as town... My vote is staying.

[acryon]

their mother

are you insulting?

Because I feel insulted.

Certainly not; it's an idiom.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/everyone ... eir_mother

@RC: If we are to lynch someone, I would be far more comfortable lynching FA given that her slot has so much confusion around it, and has the entire game.

[acryon]

I don't want to lynch FA right now.

She feels town.

Titus feels like a gigantic bag of scummy mush.

Eh I don't see it in Titus. I don't think that her response to the fake guilty was necessarily scummy.

RC - Let's pretend you're not you. Would you truly believe that

two

separate townies fakeclaimed cop? I have been in only one or two games ever where

anyone

fakeclaimed as town. I think it is far more likely that at least one of you two are scum than you are both town.

And if for some reason you are both town, read this please http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=64420.

[acryon]

I don't and never have played by that ruleset.

It's boring and ineffective.

Ok then ignore that and answer the rest of my post.

[acryon]

C - Let's pretend you're not you. Would you truly believe that two separate townies fakeclaimed cop? I have been in only one or two games ever where anyone fakeclaimed as town. I think it is far more likely that at least one of you two are scum than you are both town.

Yes.

I know for a fact that I fakeclaimed cop and I can believe that FA would have done it.

I had my reasons, FA had her reasons. What's so unbelievable about that?

Because frankly it was a very stupid thing to do and its hard to believe two people would do something so stupid and anti-town consecutively. I would rather believe one of you is scum than believe my town has two people in it willing to do that (in which case we are screwed anyway).

Titus buying my claim of her being mod confirmed when she was scumreading then changing the topic is scummy as all fucking shit.

Plus, given the between us situation I'd expect her to take my push to lynch her a lot more personally if she was town.

I don't see this. Her response seemed natural, and in-character with her play this game. To be honest I don't blame anyone for feeling disinterested in this game, because the fakeclaims and drama have made it a complete disaster to read. Also her not taking it more personally is not a scum-tell. People react to things differently, and as a townie, if someone is faking a guilty on you, your best course of action to avoid getting lynched is probably calm and collected since people generally see more emotion there as defensive and scummy.

And 1657 is, at least to me given what I know of her, a scumclaim in the fullest. If I get lynched I'd demand her to follow me.

1657 is not close to a scumclaim.

[acryon]

People react to things differently, and as a townie, if someone is faking a guilty on you, your best course of action to avoid getting lynched is probably calm and collected since people generally see more emotion there as defensive and scummy.

I'm referring to Titus specifically that I would expect to take it more personally.

Well meta means nothing, especially with someone who has experience (like Titus). Anyone worth their salt can and will adjust their play based on the game, not just alignment.

[acryon]

Yeah, but why would they adjust their meta in a way that would make them considerably more scummy and not less?

It's not about adjusting your meta. But I play differently based on the town I'm with, how people seem to be reacting to things, etc. Alignment doesn't change my play, the playgroup and environment does. Clearly this is a screwed up environment so I especially wouldn't trust meta in this game.

[acryon]

3) her flip regardless of what it is has massive value in order to analyze the effects of the fake claim.

A FA flip would provide massive value; a Titus one would not.

[acryon]

Titus scumflip guarantees BJI scum flip in my eyes.

Where do we go from a FA flip? Riddle me this, Acryon.

I'd rather not say exactly where we go from a FA flip, since I'd rather not inform the scum-kill. We can talk about that tomorrow. And how in the world does the Titus scumflip guarantee BJI scum?

[acryon]

Just take my word for it.

Like I took your word that you were cop?

[acryon]

RC - I can't imagine you don't understand that one of the very real consequences of what you did is that no one trusts you.

[acryon]

And I'm like 100% convinced about RC being town atm.

I'm like the easiest mislynch who can happen here.

that being said. I'm kind of eager to point acryon as a possible scum. I don't know why RC is town reading him constantly.

Why did you decide to fakeclaim?

[acryon]

Just take my word for it.

Like I took your word that you were cop?

Alright.

I think that Bji is godfather and that Titus, believing that there was a cop in the setup, heavily pushed him at the end of the day without risking a vote or anything in order to manipulate an inno onto said godfather.

If this is your theory, then shouldn't you be going after BJI since it all hinges on him, especially if he is the PR in your scenario?

Why did you decide to fakeclaim?

Because I believed that a cop existing in the setup was a near impossibility based on its unsuitability with Doctors and I wanted to fish reactions from BJI about the situation.

Sorry that question was actually directed at FA.

[acryon]

I WAS DRUNK

I do that only about two or three times a year. and I'm really ashamed of it atm...

I think I did that to take the bullet at night or something ... when I saw my posts later tomorrow my face got black like raspberries. I knew I screwed up this game. And I already said sorry

I don't buy this. Your thoughts and posts were very similar in coherence to the rest of the game. And if you drink and play mafia to the point that you are fakeclaiming roles, you should stop doing that because it's an actual detriment to the game.

[acryon]

And I'm like 100% convinced about RC being town atm.

I'm like the easiest mislynch who can happen here.

that being said. I'm kind of eager to point acryon as a possible scum. I don't know why RC is town reading him constantly.

Not even. That would be me.

I am not eager to point out scum.


Can someone be town and post in this shitshow? I got two townreads. Need like 5.

I'm town. Let's talk Titus.

[acryon]

As much as FA's prior threatening to commit suicide was appalling and hurts my stomach, it makes it easier to townread her.

So I'm not going to support that today.

I just don't see a lynch choice other than Titus, particularly when she's as scummy as she is.

There is 0% chance I'm voting Titus today. I also don't give townpoints for emotion because there is no way to tell what's real and what's not. There's also people that get legitimately upset even as scum.

I don't buy this. Your thoughts and posts were very similar in coherence to the rest of the game. And if you drink and play mafia to the point that you are fakeclaiming roles, you should stop doing that because it's an actual detriment to the game.

I'm town regardless what you think about the fake claim. and that's the definition of a policy lynch. and in this case will lead to a mis lynch.

I wan't that drunk to misbehave :/ I was enough drunk to do a shitty fake claim without thinking it through ...

and I already said sorry. If your town I need to accept my apology. I'm kind of in a massive pain atm.

How is this the definition of a policy lynch? The only way it's a policy lynch is that it's my policy to lynch the player most likely to flip scum. If you're town, then I accept your apology but hope you won't do it again. Although I don't think you're town so the apology doesn't mean anything.

[acryon]

I also don't give townpoints for emotion because there is no way to tell what's real and what's not

GL ever reading me accurately then.

This is the internet. This is mafia. That's two big reasons why you can't trust or base things on emotions on MS.

[acryon]

I cannot move myself past the associatives I see between you and BJI.

Something has to give here.

Why is Titus scum aside from the associatives you mention?

[acryon]

How is this the definition of a policy lynch? The only way it's a policy lynch is that it's my policy to lynch the player most likely to flip scum. If you're town, then I accept your apology but hope you won't do it again. Although I don't think you're town so the apology doesn't mean anything.

The only reason for lynching me was the lie.

policy lynch : A Policy Lynch is one that is done for arbitrary reasons.Most commonly, it describes the lynch of a player who is not found to be particularly scummy, but because the player's bad play will hurt the town later on.

Lynch All Liars is a longstanding mantra in the mafiascum.net community. Quite simply, most Townies have no reason to lie about their actions, motivations, or roles.

this is not why your voting me atm?

and I'm town. and I'm sorry from all the town for what I did.

How is that the only reason for lynching you? My vote was on you for most of yesterday, and you have just looked even worse today. When did I ever say I was lynching you based on LaL?

[acryon]

How is that the only reason for lynching you? My vote was on you for most of yesterday, and you have just looked even worse today. When did I ever say I was lynching you based on LaL?

I don't care. all your reasons are bullshit.

last day you wanted to lynch me because RP tunneled me. was there another reason?

That and you've done nothing but make things more confusing for town, your fakeclaim being the cherry on top. Townies don't make things confusing for town.

@Titus: Join me on FA?

[acryon]

@MarioManic: Can I get a FA vote?

@RP: Ascetic doesn't block NK's.

[acryon]

@MarioManic: Can I get a FA vote?

@RP: Ascetic doesn't block NK's.

See this is the other reason you're not town leader. You don't read. RC claimed bulletproof.

TBH I did miss the 1-shot BP part. What did you think of RC with all of her D1 "claims" to pull a NK?

[acryon]

People tend to claim something close to their roles. And Aescetic counters town roleblocker quite nicely.

Is this a genuine scum slip in the wild?

What do you think the odds are that neither RC nor FA are scum?

[acryon]

It's honestly one step above NK-immune Miller vig. Fine, said enough until I think but UGH

The problem is lynching RC is much more dangerous than lynching FA.

[acryon]

Stop making a relation between me and RC lynches.

we are two different separate people and there is no guarantee to find scum between us based on LAL. The probability thing your bringing up is completely flawed

I am not basing it on LAL, and I am not saying there is a guarantee. What I am saying is that it is incredibly likely that one of you is scum. And the way you acted during and following your claim with the unclaim and everything just looked much worse. Additionally, I think an alive-RC makes things less confusing than an alive-FA.

[acryon]

ITS NOT INCREDIBLY LIKELY. its just as probable as for any other two pairs.

It is not. If we are looking at just the set of people we have with 0 information, then of course it's the same, but this isn't just a statistic game and you know that. You have both done things that are actively anti-town, but your responses in general have been worse and there is less damage if we are wrong about you, so it goes to you.