Mini Normal 1825 - Game Over

[Expedience]

Hello!

[Expedience]

I was already suspicious; however, having someone else that shares my opinion definitely solidifies it slightly more (peer pressure and all that). What's your opinion on Dierfire rn?

I already said I didn't like him.

How does someone else stating their opinion confirm yours? You changed your vote directly after Saru. Do you know they're town?

Really don't like this.

Dierfire is null to me fwiw

[Expedience]

Fuck, I have no strong scumreads.

Townread list: rb, RYank, gameplay506

I think Chuck is scummy for coasting on a basically RVS vote. "apologizing in advance" is reachy and it's been proven as null. However, I like his tone so I feel conflicted.

pitoli is vaguely suspicious, I get the feeling he knows Dierfire is town and is asking questions in a way that is directed. It's difficult to explain, like they're using arguments based on someone's flip in advance because they know their alignment, and it doesn't mesh with their stances.

Dierfire didn't do anything wrong, his play is a bit weird but I think it can come from either alignment.

[Expedience]

I just thought it strange that you expected me to scum read you because for me to formulate a read on you I would have to be town. As scum, it really wouldn't matter. So it feels like you know I'm town and you shouldn't because I haven't done anything.

Why aren't you voting her (-> me) then?

[Expedience]

VOTE: pitoli

I'm so lost so just going to go with my gut.

RyanK is probably a controversial read, I think he's town because he's only a small boy and is being transparent about his opinions. The things he's being scumread for are playstyle (e.g. weird not really believable move onto gameplay wagon). And the townslip is probably legit, these things generally are.

I concluded that Chuck is town. I've been reading things over and over but I reached the limit of how immersed (not very) I can be in this game after I just replaced in. See you all soon.

[Expedience]

Martha, what did you like about Dierfire's posts that changed your opinion on him?

I think Dierfire's posts

didn't

improve and Martha is scum trying to go with the flow.

VOTE: Martha

[Expedience]

Martha, what did you like about Dierfire's posts that changed your opinion on him?

I think Dierfire's posts

didn't

improve and Martha is scum trying to go with the flow.

VOTE: Martha

Dierfire is making worse and worse posts, so we should vote Martha?

No he's not. His posts are the same, null.

[Expedience]

So,
- Dierfire deserves to be lynched
- Yet I am suspicious for risking a quick hammer by scum
- Martha ignores my request to explain this fairlynunreasonable fear
- Ryan is even more scummy than Dierfire (who deserves to be lynched, so that's really scummy!), yet she keeps her vote on Dierfire - it's still on him btw... How about that scum quickhammer danger, Martha? Do you still feel Dierfire deserves to be lynched?

- At that time, Dierfire deserves to be lynched. It's my opinion.
- Wdym by this?
- Where?
- Yes, by now, Ryan is scummy than Dierfire. In fact, I'm still figuring out things. And I still need to see everybody's opinion on Dierfire then I'll do my part. You just gotta wait. No need to rush things. But rn, I do think Dierfire is okay for now. And that quickhammer danger? Isn't that a little bit stupid for scums to do? I mean, It would be obvious if they'll do a quickhammer.

But right now, As you have mentioned, I think Dierfire is okay for now. He's leaning on my nulltown but as I said above, I still need everybody's opinion on him.

UNVOTE: Dierfire

This is a scumpost

Trying to stay up to speed with everyone. There are a few questions out there people have asked my that I will answer in a couple of hours when I get home from work. Just had to jump in here real quick and ask RyanK:

What the frick?? We're on page 20 and you're arguing that someone's standing out because they exaggerated ten minutes into an hour? Why are you grasping at such insignificant things when we have so much content you could be analyzing instead?

Am I overreacting to that? That just seems to whacked to me.

This is a complete mischaracterisation of RyanK's play, he has been doing more than just that.

I dislike your rhetoric.

What's your read on RyanK?

[Expedience]

Am I the only one seeing this?

Yes. I'm not townreading either of them though.

[Expedience]

Don't apologize for saying what you believe!

The problem is that the only one here who's real life is rb. If other people were also rb that would help a lot.

[Expedience]

I think it's just a funny argument. I think it's not serious. And that slug thing.
UNVOTE: Ryan
VOTE: Cass

Please explain why that is scummy and serious?

It was scummy because of post 24. Meanwhile, it wasn't a really serious conversation from what I can tell.

No RyanK, I don't agree about post 24, that doesn't look scummy to me. I thought Gameplay getting genuinely annoyed (Game's post 56 and 62) after rb voted him (which is

after

the slug-fest, hah) was an overreaction at that point. I could ofcourse be misreading tone here. Such a strong response to a vote at this stage is good enough reason to add mine.

Being genuinely annoyed was why I was mildly townreading gameplay even before he started posting content.

How you can see that as being a reason to scumread him is beyond me. I think his reaction was pretty relaxed too.

You even used the word "genuine".

[Expedience]

@Pitoli

I am not a scum. Me and Cass' posts are completely coincidental. I tend to look more on the people being accused like for example, Dierfire was accused then I gotta look at him and judge him if he's acting or nah. and my sheep vote on Cass post is because that I want to know more about gameplay. That's why I said should we wait for him. Because that's part of my strategy. I vote on people who's acting scummy, then if they post town or scum then I will figure out things.

If yall still want to lynch me, Great. My mislynch would be good af

Why:
Would your mislynch be good?
Aren't you voting yourself if this is the case?

What I don't like about you is that you kept saying that you needed to hear from more people before voting RyanK. It felt fake like you were deflecting to cover your lack of confidence and you didn't really care about others' opinions.

Can you explain why you needed to hear from other people before you voted RyanK? What exactly did you end up hearing, now that you voted him?

[Expedience]

I can't defend myself seeing scums aboarding my wagon train.

I don't understand what this means, rephrase

[Expedience]

I can't defend myself seeing scums aboarding my wagon train.

I don't understand what this means, rephrase

I can't defend myself because scums are joining my wagon.

That's the second stupidest thing I've read in this thread.

[Expedience]

I'm not actually very sure. Maybe 57% sure, I could be surer.

Do you actually think I'm scum or is that just some kind of throwaway rhetoric?

Could you answer 535?

[Expedience]

Like I said Naomi's post WAS bad. Gameplay is being sketchy af and Dierfire's sheeping and reasoning for sheeping is awful.
...

Okay, I can understand that and I did have Naomi as townread so whatever.

VOTE: Martha

How is this reason for sheeping Expedience any better, rb?
VOTE: rb for hypocrisy.

He just unvoted before and replaced his vote.

You're looking at this too literally anyway, it's more "this person is voting someone they don't seem to really think is scum, so they are possibly scum", not "you naked voted the same player you're confirmed as scum"

[Expedience]

Wait no, I get it.

You're saying that you don't think sheeping is alignment indicative but you're voting rb for being hypocritical independent of that.

pedit: @Ryan

[Expedience]

Martha, why would you hammer yourself if you got to L-1?

I don't see how this would help you as either alignment.

[Expedience]

I'm not okay with this, I'm mulling it over and almost positive he doesn't say that mislynching him is good for town as scum.

UNVOTE: Martha

[Expedience]

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Only person who I actually want to vote.

Spoiler:

bbt: y
cass: meh
chuck: n
dierfire: meh
gameplay: n
glitch: maybe
golden009: meh
martha: n
pitoli: ehh
rb: nop
ryank: nop
saru: meh

He's sitting back in his armchair trying to look as nonchalant as possible and I'm not having any of that shit.

[Expedience]

Right, is it bad that I now hope soneone else votes Martha, just to see if she will actually self-hammer?

Us posting close together means nothing to me, obviously, since I don't have daytalk :p It could be an attempt to buddy by her, but I don't even think so. She doesn't seem coordinated enough for such a tactic. In fact, I find her posts increasingly hard to follow. But I like this wagon, in fact wouldn't mind if it turned into a lynch - especially with a self- hammer! Go for it, Martha! Unless you are in fact town, then start scum- hunting instead.

And now she's saying l-2 isn't bad, because scum wouldn't quick hammer, in dirct contradiction with her earlier post (on a tablet, so sorry not going to look it up, but it's in my previous post where I vote her).

"obviously" you don't have daytalk?

If you aren't following their posts isn't that kind of a red flag? I feel like that was the case for me, there were so many other things that looked initially scummy like all the deflection re: voting ryan for example, I latched onto the one thing which I'm sure is town. I think the rest is just Martha being automatically flaily and semi-literate.

I ask why it's obvious that you don't have daytalk because that's obviously not the case.

And I've always had this theory that whenever someone says something like that (initially meant as in response to when people say "r u town??" "ofc lol"), it's because they're scum automatically parsing it to "are you claiming town?". And they're subconsciously like "yes, of course i am claiming town!", and then they leave the "of course" behind. But the only time I noticed it the person was actually town. But this seems like a more pure form (since it wasn't in response to a cliché question). So you're probably scum.

[Expedience]

This expedience vote for blue without a reasons makes me wanna vote for you.

VOTE: Expedience

You are sheeping when Pitoli voted for me. I think you are being opportunistic when you voted for me.

I voted BlueBloodedToffee because I thought he was scum trying to make himself appear careless and laid back, sorry if I was being too metaphorical.

In particular, when he went on about how he wouldn't read walls. I didn't like his post attacking [player forgotten] because it was quite leading and he didn't go anywhere with it.

I voted you because you looked scummy to me, I unvoted because you don't any more.

Most of your play still doesn't make sense to me.

[Expedience]

I just thought it strange that you expected me to scum read you because for me to formulate a read on you I would have to be town. As scum, it really wouldn't matter. So it feels like you know I'm town and you shouldn't because I haven't done anything.

This one. Kinda awful.

This is just fucking stupid logic as well. Nobody treats people as if they have indeterminate alignment in every interaction. Like people don't ask "why are you townreading me (if ur town) or pretending to townread me (if ur scum)?"

It's literally like someone asked BBT "why are you scumreading me?", and then he comes back with this "oh, you know. isn't is kinda strange how ur assuming im town because if i was scum i wouldnt really be scumreading you, and you know im town because ur scum? just saying.".

[Expedience]

Okay, I understand. It didn't look like it at first, you never really explained yourself and it sounded like when you said "Dierfire looks more town" you were just saying that because everyone else was saying it, and you had nothing to actually back it up. But I'm beginning to see that you just don't explain yourself much.

That's a super town post btw because Martha is talking about lots of human feelings rather than cold facts, it's difficult to convincingly fake a post like that.

Pedit: @578

[Expedience]

Fine, I'll be back when you run out of other priorities. Little to gain from voting someone who isn't engaging.

VOTE: Cass

[Expedience]

Post 578 I mean, your post

[Expedience]

Right, is it bad that I now hope soneone else votes Martha, just to see if she will actually self-hammer?

Us posting close together means nothing to me, obviously, since I don't have daytalk :p It could be an attempt to buddy by her, but I don't even think so. She doesn't seem coordinated enough for such a tactic. In fact, I find her posts increasingly hard to follow. But I like this wagon, in fact wouldn't mind if it turned into a lynch - especially with a self- hammer! Go for it, Martha! Unless you are in fact town, then start scum- hunting instead.

And now she's saying l-2 isn't bad, because scum wouldn't quick hammer, in dirct contradiction with her earlier post (on a tablet, so sorry not going to look it up, but it's in my previous post where I vote her).

"obviously" you don't have daytalk?

If you aren't following their posts isn't that kind of a red flag? I feel like that was the case for me, there were so many other things that looked initially scummy like all the deflection re: voting ryan for example, I latched onto the one thing which I'm sure is town. I think the rest is just Martha being automatically flaily and semi-literate.

I ask why it's obvious that you don't have daytalk because that's obviously not the case.

And I've always had this theory that whenever someone says something like that (initially meant as in response to when people say "r u town??" "ofc lol"), it's because they're scum automatically parsing it to "are you claiming town?". And they're subconsciously like "yes, of course i am claiming town!", and then they leave the "of course" behind. But the only time I noticed it the person was actually town. But this seems like a more pure form (since it wasn't in response to a cliché question). So you're probably scum.

Yeah, that attack is so predictable and makes me see you as scummier. The daytalk thing is a weak thing for me to say, i know this. Because it is only obvious to me and everyone knows that - and I know everyone knows and that I will convince exactly zero people with such a claim, so it's NAI. Latching onto a thing like that is scummy. All it means is that I can't defend myself from a timing question, you do understand that, right? There's nothing useful to say against such an accusation. You can bring it back up if Martha or I ever flips scum.

???

I don't think you and Martha are scum who coorinated in daychat. This isn't coherent. I think you missed my point entirely, I'm voting you for how you responded to that accusation.

Not liking Martha's soft claim, but it does sound more like bad town play than lying scum, so, with an annoyed sigh:
UNVOTE: Martha

Why would it annoy you, your read has improved?

[Expedience]

Nope, I don't see anything redeeming in Martha's posts. It's just a lot of flailing and "woe is me" fatalism before the wagon even got ran up very far.

@Expedience: Actually, scum can hammer themselves as a way to deny that slight bit of information from town.

There are a lot of dumb votes being thrown around i.e. omgus, voting because "hypocrisy", voting because "illogical". The latter two can come from town as well as scum.

But they don't tell the town that.

It's townie fatalism because I doubt Martha is self-aware enough to fake it.

[Expedience]

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee
He's sitting back in his armchair trying to look as nonchalant as possible and I'm not having any of that shit.

I PMed the mod asking if he could issue BBT some sort of warning to actually participate in the game. That being said, if BBT is scum, I doubt that he will try to win by doing this coasting strategy all game.

It's not the coasting that bothers me, it's "look at me, i'm coasting!".

[Expedience]

I don't feel 100% anymore, but I still feel 60%, and I'm okay with that at the moment. I've been tempted to vote for Martha, but I don't feel amazing about her either.

pedit: uhhhhh
UNVOTE: VOTE: Martha Zolanski

y tho

[Expedience]

Martha and Ryan both... If town. Neither is helping town with their play.

It bothers me that you're voting Ryan while saying this, like you are this close to acknowledging that your vote on Ryan is entirely for playstyle.

It feels like an excuse for when Ryan flips town (because he will).

[Expedience]

Guys, Martha and Ryan are both town.

[Expedience]

Yes, golden

Ryan townslipped, and his erratic behavior is NAI. If anything it's a towntell because that sort of thing is hard to fake and it's not opportunistic what he's been doing. If you read his other game his opinions are inconsistent and jumpy in a somilar way. Ryan's arguments are not reachy to him, all that matters is that he believes what he's saying.

[Expedience]

Ryan townslipped

where?

Nevermind, it's not really a townslip.

[Expedience]

I can't deal with this, Ryan please tell me you're a spambot

[Expedience]

VOTE: RyanK I don't really buy this.

Yeah, I need a hard reset on this game.

Like I get this but lynching him just feels so wrong.

[Expedience]

I can't snip the quote but I don't like Glitch's post the way he backed down from me and onto Ryan. I don't trust that wagon at all.

The way he described Cass' post as town is nonsensical scum waffling and says nothing. I really hate that part, he's just giving reasons why Cass isn't scum for """synchronisation""" etc.

VOTE: Glitch

For rb support and gameplay is pretty town.

[Expedience]

Actually idfk.

Quoting posts from RVS and fucking tossing incoherent votes across the thread, he didn't do that in the other game. I almost feel like he was instructed in daytalk to just troll and he took it too far or something. Because this is just ridiculous, he has no consistency, no evaluation, no human inside that gradient of his

I can't make a judgement, and I feel like that's the case for several players in this game.

I can say confidently that Martha is town though, at least.

[Expedience]

There is a tactic in the way I'm playing. It forces everyone to give away more information about their thoughts that would be useful.

No, I don't want to lynch this.

I think he thinks that he's helping out by rereading the game or something. But it's some weird shit.

[Expedience]

Too scummy to be scum is a lazy ass excuse to list of somebody as town.
More fitting here would be "too dumb to be scum" but its still all the same.

That's not really what I'm saying. More like, "too outgoing, too much effort to be scum" because that's why I'm townreading him. And then I am bothered by the lack of consistency. Like, look at the thing he posted just now. That's a town post for a newbie, he wants answers and he's hounding you for them. Ryan isn't dumb, it's just he has distanced himself from mortal affairs and concerns himself only with simple questions and answers.

But I know I have a documented distrust of d1 wagons.

[Expedience]

gameplay, what's your read on rb?

[Expedience]

Saru's inactivity seems scummy compared to other games.

[Expedience]

rb I think you're town but your push on gameplay doesn't make sense and I think you are missing the big picture, you're seing salttells not scumtells

gameplay is town because his frustration at being beat down by rb is genuine, his stance on Ryan is believable and he isn't just jumping betweens wagons like half the game.

[Expedience]

This post exists to note that Chuck has promised and failed to deliver content for the past 3 days.

[Expedience]

frankly unacceptable lynches: gameplay, ryan, martha, rb
meh lynches: cass, saru, dierfire, golden009, pitoli
good shit lynches: bbt, chuck, glitch

I've decided that Chuck's confidence is in fact sickening, this contradicts my earlier statement that he was town for those following my posts closely. We have to purge lurkers in this game btw

[Expedience]

frankly unacceptable lynches: gameplay, ryan, martha, rb
meh lynches: cass, saru, dierfire, golden009, pitoli
good shit lynches: bbt, chuck, glitch

This is basically an activity list

That's coincidental.

[Expedience]

I've decided that Chuck's confidence is in fact sickening, this contradicts my earlier statement that he was town for those following my posts closely. We have to purge lurkers in this game btw

My level of confidence is for a very good reason.

My "lurking" is also for a very good (RL) reason. You'll see more activity later on. And this is my fourth promise of that, since you seem to be counting.

Regardless: Lurker hunting is never a good response to a very active day phase. That's Mafia Playing 101.

frankly unacceptable lynches: gameplay, ryan, martha, rb
meh lynches: cass, saru, dierfire, golden009, pitoli
good shit lynches: bbt, chuck, glitch

This is basically an activity list

While you are correct; to be frank, that's not necessarily a bad way to look at things in some cases. I contend that this is not one of those cases.

This level of activity without some form of town consensus on a lynch so far, generally means that scum are among the more active players in the game.

I'm more interested in the rapid wagon development and fizzling going on, the timing and people on the wagons, than the words being said.

These generalizations about the gamestate are inaccurate and scummy. I dispute your conclusions, I actually tried to read people and drew conclusions based on that as opposed to hand-wringing about activity levels.

You haven't named anyone other than Naomi (who was obvious town) as part of this mystic scum influence on the wagons, and that's because you're probably scum.

[Expedience]

Oh, that's right. Expedience replaced Naomi-Tan.

That completely explains his hypersensitivity to my slot. Of course he would want to lynch his biggest detractor, especially given the rest of towns focus on rb and gameplay.

Naturally, how elementary indeed.

[Expedience]

Can't write an in depth post, but I do have some Q's.

What does lynching Chuck, BBT, or me accomplish?

A Chuck lynch is not a big red flag to me but I'm also not convinced of it. But I'm not on board with a BBT lynch at this point because there's not a lot of content he's contributed so far, and of the content that he has contributed so far I don't remember much about (sorry).

I know the general consensus has shifted away from Ryan here, but it's too much to ignore in my mind that his playstyle conveniently shifted to being a bit more on the serious side once the pressure became real and not just a vote or two. When he got to around four or five he started contributing some more serious content but still in small nuggets peppered with his normal illogicality.

RyanK, I'm not really interested in waiting until tomorrow to figure out why you're playing the way you are, and it's odd to me that that's gone unchallenged when you said you would explain in Day 2.

ew. glad my vote is here.

What's up with the more serious tone in the second part of the day so far? Why the change? And why can't you explain now?

This isn't a thing.

[Expedience]

And the only reason I'm avoiding popular wagons is because they are shit. Like here's the choices: 1) player of mini normal 1825 who made an rvs vote 2) our robot friend ryan 3) flailing newbtown pr

The only wagon Chuck has voted is me, a vanity wagon that he's too faux-confident to get off at this point.

[Expedience]

And the only way to know if someone is town or scum is when some flips.

Ridiculously obvious things like this are usually posted by scum trying to be seen as a) helpful, and b) logical.

Missing the forest fire for the leaf

I would cry zero tears if RyanK was lynched.

Greatly prefer Expedience, however.

His character assassination of me during my absence, when I was an easy target.
Trying to lynch lurkers instead of focusing on what was actually happening in the game.

Two strikes. Being the replacement for Naomi-Tan is strike three.

Expedience is scum.

Everyone should just trust me on this.
Any other lynch today would be silly.

I read active players such as the ones of my list and didn't want to lynch them.

You're arguing that I'm scum because I pointed out your deferment of catchup, you can't believe that.

The first two strikes are simply factually inaccurate. And Naomi was so blatantly town.

[Expedience]

Checking through vote counts, I find that:

Gameplay has been voting for RyanK literally the entire game.

Cass, RyanK, and Martha Zolanski have all been on every one of the three major (5+ votes) wagons that were not on themselves.
Of the three, Cass is the only one who has not been wagoned.

Vote Count 1.17 is of particular note because there are no real good wagons. Scum can probably be found there later.

rb has voted 5 different people but keeps switching when the wagons get large. This is highly consistent with townie behavior gauging reactions and pushing in many directions. Find the person who tries to suck up to rb the most and they are probably scum.

Expedience is also hopping around (Naomi-Tan only ever voted Martha Zolanski) but unlike rb, he's not going from big wagon to big wagon. He's going from vanity wagon to vanity wagon, which is consistent with scum behavior who are afraid to be on a townie lynch when it goes through.

ISO Accountant and see these things for yourself. I could keep looking for patterns, but I'm out of time tonight.

Somebody else should go find all the stuff I missed.


P-edit: Agree that looks like that from a certain POV, but it's NNAI however, as scum can also be policy lynched, and in fact, that's what policy lynches attempt to eliminate. Not bad townies, scum hiding behind the guise of being a bad townie. That's why it's a "policy" lynch.

chuck has manipulated meaningless vote movements to fit predetermined conclusions.

[Expedience]

I don't necessarily agree with Chuck's conclusions but I think his reasons aren't that bad/scum motivated. I think he just really thinks you're scum...lmao.

This is exactly what I have done as scum in the past. He's going to posture and act sickeningly overconfident until hopefully everyone believes his tunnel and then he'll open up to lynching other people.

Sure I want to lynch Glitch too.

[Expedience]

rb, you should look at gameplay's ISO in micro 630, he doesn't put in anywhere near as much effort to sort players as he does here, and I think that's a strong and explicit towntell on its own.

[Expedience]

Replying from my phone so I can't quote.

@rb my questions for Ryan weren't implying that it's scummy to change play style. I asked him why he did. If I thought it was scummy I would have used it as an argument to support my current vote on him and encourage a lynch.

Additionally, you totally ignored my question about how it would be beneficial to lynch BBT, me, or Chuck. "Because you're scum!" is crappy answer. If any of us flip scum, good news. If any of us flip town, how does it benefit the town?

It would be more beneficial, seeing as we have a few suspicious people on board here, to find a lynch that would be informative in both cases when it flips town or scum. Who is associated with who? If Ryan, Martha, BBT, Chuck, or I are the lynch today, if we flip town does it help us figure anything out in Day 2?

We can find a beneficial lynch that helps town one way or the other. I'm aiming to run through some more options tonight after work and see what I can figure out.

@pitoli what's a policy lynch?

Ps
@rb: why am I terrible?

Obviously a mislynch would be bad lmao get out of here with all this "wait but guys, maybe lynching me is not beneficial??"

While doubtcasting rb even.

[Expedience]

rb, you should look at gameplay's ISO in micro 630, he doesn't put in anywhere near as much effort to sort players as he does here, and I think that's a strong and explicit towntell on its own.

What effort does it take to tunnel the most obviously shit player in the game?

Evidently catching up on the thread and giving reads on other players

[Expedience]

@expedience duh. A mislynch would be bad but some are worse than others. Out of the options for a scum lynch, if we are wrong, does it help us? Unless one person stands out as scum more than others, if we have multiple options on the table that we are considering and it's challenging to make a decision, why should we not pick the one that if they flip town helps us figure more out?

Because "we" only care about lynching scum, not the dubious information lynching that you only brought up now to try and save yourself.

[Expedience]

@rb: Sure but I have to re read first, which will be tonight.

@exp: right, which is why it would be good to get as much info as possible on who is scum when you get a flip. @rb too: can you explain to me why it's so shit?

And we do this by giving you a chance to inform us and voting robo-friend I assume.

[Expedience]

@mod: somehow Dierfire has become "DierfireAeybdD5UoQ" on the votecount

Okay, but having two people with the exact same scumminess and different information isn't something that has ever happened to me. It doesn't seem like you are actually trying to prove anything other than discrediting my vote on you.

Fixed. How the heck did that happen?!

[Expedience]

How about we lynch Ryan, and see if that and the night clears some things up? Because I can't make much sense of this game as it is.

Uh, lolno.

Martha, I'm townreading you because you look town. If I was scum, I wouldn't even care about whether or not you trust me because nobody is listening to you. I'm not just saying "ryan and martha are town", I have explained why I think that previously. The fact that you are afraid me buddying you also looks very town ftr

[Expedience]

@Game, I'd say you can read me quite well, since I'm not sure what i'm doing either. How about we lynch Ryan, and see if that and the night clears some things up? Because I can't make much sense of this game as it is.

I do think rb's defending of Ryan is getting a bit weird. Like he has to be some insane genius to play like this as scum, wtf? How is this style any harder for scum to pull off than as town? But he ignores me when i question him about it - in fact, rb ignores all my questions. What's up?

This is almost as bad as Glitch's fear of losing the ryan mislynch

[Expedience]

@Game, I'd say you can read me quite well, since I'm not sure what i'm doing either. How about we lynch Ryan, and see if that and the night clears some things up? Because I can't make much sense of this game as it is.

I do think rb's defending of Ryan is getting a bit weird. Like he has to be some insane genius to play like this as scum, wtf? How is this style any harder for scum to pull off than as town? But he ignores me when i question him about it - in fact, rb ignores all my questions. What's up?

This is almost as bad as Glitch's fear of losing the ryan mislynch

You know Ryan is a mislynch eh?

Yes.

[Expedience]

Just to make it really clear: Ryan is playing BAD.

Playing bad doesn't make someone scum.

No, but neither does it take any kind of genius to play bad as scum (as compared to doing it as town. And why do you keep ignoring me?

This feels like scum who thinks Ryan is being cleared too easily.

Ryan is not being cleared because he's "playing bad", which he isn't.

Also, gameplay calls you dumb and such because you are arguing with him and tunneling him aggressively. You two are creating that atmosphere and it's harming town. Please take a step back and see if he's also scum if you ignore the interactions between you two. Mind you, I'm not saying he isn't, I just really hate the way you are attacking him and it makes me want to defend him - or at least fight the wagon, possibly for the wrong reasons.

Do you think gameplay and rb are both town?

I want to quote all the times people have used the words "odd", "weird", "interesting", it's a legit scumtell that stood out to me from glitch and 1085.

[Expedience]

Ryan, you should just do what he asks, it's for the best so he stops yelling at everyone.

[Expedience]

I've never understood why players get so insistent about answering questions, I usually just leave it unless I really want to know.

Glitch, can you claim? Game's going in circles.

[Expedience]

By the way, now you can add claim fishing to the list of Expedience's crimes.

Glitch is at L-5, that's not the time to ask for a claim. Period.

Who are you to set the time to ask for a claim? I do as I please, period.

Glitch, do you think the people would settle for a...

Spoiler:

CLAIM DUEL?

[Expedience]

Just to make it really clear: Ryan is playing BAD.

Playing bad doesn't make someone scum.

No, but neither does it take any kind of genius to play bad as scum (as compared to doing it as town. And why do you keep ignoring me?

This feels like scum who thinks Ryan is being cleared too easily.

Ryan is not being cleared because he's "playing bad", which he isn't.

I don't understand what you're saying. Ryan isn't bad? Ryan isn't being cleared? And are you saying I feel like scum because I think he being cleared 'too easily'?

Also, gameplay calls you dumb and such because you are arguing with him and tunneling him aggressively. You two are creating that atmosphere and it's harming town. Please take a step back and see if he's also scum if you ignore the interactions between you two. Mind you, I'm not saying he isn't, I just really hate the way you are attacking him and it makes me want to defend him - or at least fight the wagon, possibly for the wrong reasons.

Do you think gameplay and rb are both town?

Yes, I do. I think it's TvT(vT if you count Martha).

I want to quote all the times people have used the words "odd", "weird", "interesting", it's a legit scumtell that stood out to me from glitch and 1085.

So do it, I know I'll be in it a lot. (And now adding one more to it: ) But answer me first - don't you think it's odd/weird/whatever that rb feels Ryan being scum would require 'god-tier' levels of skill?

I've never understood why players get so insistent about answering questions, I usually just leave it unless I really want to know.
Glitch, can you claim? Game's going in circles.

Why should Glitch claim now? He's at what, three votes? Maybe first convince a few more people that he's scum before you start role-fishing?? You just earned a vote.

About the questions: well, read my post to rb and you see why I was getting slightly annoyed. I'm not normally that insisten, but if someone explicitly asks for questions and then not answers them, I get triggered. Pretty sure I have more open questions to others, but I can't be bothered to look now.
UNVOTE: Ryan
VOTE: Expedience

Ryan isn't playing bad, he's just playing differently to you. It's like calling some wizened chess grandmaster bad because they spend so long thinking about their moves.

I'm clearing Ryan because I can see that he's town. You're disputing this in a way which suggests you know he's town but think you would scumread him if you were town, simplistically this is associated with debating the reasons why he's town rather than countering with arguments for him being scum.

Ryan possesses within him nearly limitless power which he has yet to even understand. Ryan's play is not yet god-tier, thus he could not fake this attitude as scun.

Glitch should claim now, because otherwise he's scum. He's scum anyway though, so I'm just trying to gather evidence to prove it to everyone else.

There's no reason why Glitch should claim over anyone else, and to be honest I do think everyone should just claim immediately. But that wouldn't work unless the majority of players claim. If I can encourage just one scum to claim, though, that would help us.

I'm offering the CLAIM DUEL to the site meta, on my knees, in the hope that I can sway its stubborn mind.

[Expedience]

I think that both the Ryan and Expedience wagons are bad.

I think that both the Ryan and Expedience wagons are good.

This game is beginning to feel like a stalemate. Here's hoping for quick replacements by people with something useful to say.

Rb, Expedience and Ryan scum buddies confirmed.

I really feel like it.

Hey, that's definitely not the case and I'm confident that all four of us are town.

[Expedience]

Reads:

Cass - Genuine scum hunting, I like the overall vibe I get when I read her posts. Townreading.

Chuck - He’s been really set on lynching Expedience since 947 because of Expedience trying to lynch lurkers and assassinating his character (in Chuck’s words). In response to Chuck’s question in 1041, and because I’m going through and ISO’ing everyone at the moment, something else to point out:

Spoiler: quotes

I'm not very satisfied by her quoting from her initial post, no. It still feels like she's setting up a get-out-of-jail-free card to escape suspicion if she does some anti-town things.

This post is correct, and golden009 feels town as well, not just from this post but from multiple others before this.

From multiple others before this? Here are all his posts before 151:

hi

just woke up

am looking through posts

for now VOTE: Naomi-tan because that opening post feels scummy

also tfw the two oldest accounts in this game have zero finished games combined

...
Speaking of LAMIST; the setup tells us that scum have day talk if you missed it, so please bare that in mind over the game.

Naomi-Tan, how did you know scum has day talk?

Not sure if serious, but Miscellaneous rule 6.

So are we at 5 Gameplay votes?

I don't like the entrance from golden009 in 84, as he fails to comment on the wagon, which to me appears to be the most important feature of the game thus far.

My opinion on the wagon is that it's reasonable, but I'm waiting for Gameplay to reply to vote (and put it at L-1 at this point).

In the meantime, I'd like to see Naomi-Tan respond to this:

@Naomi - how am I supposed to interpret the fact that you'rre pre-announcing that you pre-announced this thing last game? I don't think LAMIST is a scumtell (it's NAI) and I find it weird that you'd be so on edge about this. Again conveniently explained that you're like this as both town AND scum but that's what scum would say too.

What's the reason you told us this?

Mixed feelings. I can understand why town-Naomi would do it (if town-Naomi behaves like she said she does in her intro post), but if you look at it without knowing about earlier games, it's very meh.

I'm not very satisfied by her quoting from her initial post, no. It still feels like she's setting up a get-out-of-jail-free card to escape suspicion if she does some anti-town things.

Chuck why does golden feel town with 7 fluff posts that don’t have much meat to them?

This seems odd to me. It could be just normal Day 1 vibes without too much reason with such little to go on. Or it could be a lack of logical argumentation for favoring golden. Why?

Additionally, per 947, why should we just trust you on this?

Dierfire - seems town enough to me to not be on the radar at the moment. His posts throughout the entire thread are consistent and seem to be genuine, at least from what I’ve looked at.

Gameplay - Pretty stuck up and gets on my nerves. He’s stuck to Ryan from early in the game and really lobbied against him the whole time. I don’t really get why he’s so stuck and set on getting him lynched, however, it seems like it’s too stupid of a move to stay so hard-core against Ryan if he’s scum because scum would know better than to draw that much attention, right? I’m not really scum reading him just because he would be too stupid to be scum this way and I feel like he would play smarter.

Martha - Her whole episode of being down with her own lynch is just weird to me. Why would town be happy about themselves getting lynched? It doesn’t help anything unless their death is one of the notoriously awful info lynches. (-_-) And apparently since it’s so well known that that’s only something a shit player would do, I don’t see how the whole excitement over getting lynched could be townish.

Then there’s the fact that she repeatedly reiterates how town she is and throws in a soft claim. I just don’t like it. Plus, she’s on the Ryan wagon which I think even though there’s 5 votes on it right now I get the feeling it’s over because we’ve gotten what we need out of it and I think there’s enough people satisfied with his reaction that we won’t reach a lynch.

Before putting her as a scum read, one note. She points out in 716:

Golden seems unhelpful, btw. There's something fishy about him. Look at his iso then judge. And you're vote of me is unreasonable. It's not like I don't want you to vote for me, But the looks of it is just pure sheeping and opportunistic. You're saying you're tempted to vote for me, Why? It's because I've been suspected right? I am suspected, thus, you get the opportunity to vote for me.

So I went and ISO’s golden and he

has

been pretty useless. But that’s something that’s easy to point out and target — and she sure enough voted for him in 716 too. Just seems like cheap scum hunting.

Therefore, I’m shifting to VOTE: Martha for the time being. Thoughts on what I brought up?

Saru - is null to me, he has 7 posts and they’re all the same with a large amount of contribution that seems pro-town. Scum or town can do that.

pitoli - I’ve got a strong town read from the beginning on this one and I still get the same vibe

RyanK - Arguments have been made on why he’s totally town which I see the accuracy in, and the my goals in joining the wagon are accomplished. Unvoted.

BBT and Golden seems utterly useless so far.

rb has the most posts of anyone and I want to ISO him but I don’t have time right now. Will do soon hopefully.

Martha, you know why Glitch says it's weird to him that you're okay with being lynched? It's because he knows you're town.

He asks "why would town be okay with being lynched?", but he

doesn't ask

"why would scum be okay with being lynched?". The answer to both of these questions would be "town and scum sometimes give up", but Glitch didn't talk about that. However,

the way in which you gave up

was townie because you were transparent about it. Scum would either lurk or claim scum.

It's because he's not even considering the possibility that you're scum, he already knows it isn't the case. All he's checking for are indications that town are doing bad things (like being okay with getting lynched).

[Expedience]

...
I'm offering the CLAIM DUEL to the site meta, on my knees, in the hope that I can sway its stubborn mind.

Where does mass-claiming bring us? If it doesn't lead anywhere, I don't think we should try it.

I don't expect massclaiming to happen in this game, but having a CLAIM DUEL would be both pro-town and entertaining. Here's how it works, it's simple:

1) Glitch claims
2) I claim
3) We lynch Glitch

[Expedience]

...
I'm offering the CLAIM DUEL to the site meta, on my knees, in the hope that I can sway its stubborn mind.

Where does mass-claiming bring us? If it doesn't lead anywhere, I don't think we should try it.

I don't expect massclaiming to happen in this game, but having a CLAIM DUEL would be both pro-town and entertaining. Here's how it works, it's simple:

1) Glitch claims
2) I claim
3) We lynch Glitch

4) You get NK-ed

I'm not stating whether or not I am a PR until the CLAIM DUEL has begun.

[Expedience]

Martha, you know why Glitch says it's weird to him that you're okay with being lynched? It's because he knows you're town.

He asks "why would town be okay with being lynched?", but he

doesn't ask

"why would scum be okay with being lynched?". The answer to both of these questions would be "town and scum sometimes give up", but Glitch didn't talk about that. However,

the way in which you gave up

was townie because you were transparent about it. Scum would either lurk or claim scum.

It's because he's not even considering the possibility that you're scum, he already knows it isn't the case. All he's checking for are indications that town are doing bad things (like being okay with getting lynched).

I'll consider this as null town read for you.

UNVOTE: Expedience

And also, the fact that he also know that golden is unhelpful; which in fact not a pro town to do, is pure scummy for glitch to do. And the post he made just sounds, "I know Martha is town - and she suspects golden which I agree with - but Martha needs to get lynched. Vote: Martha"

Thank you for explaining this, Expedience.

VOTE: Glitch

I actually didn't read that part because it looked looked it required context to understand, but you're right, that is awful.

He's agreeing with your point and then saying that it's scummy for you to point it out. It's almost like he didn't want to get called out himself for doing that. It's definitely a fake thought process, yeah.

[Expedience]

If you support the CLAIM DUEL, type:

Code: Select all

[hurt]Glitch[/hurt]

HURT: Glitch

This is symbolic of the hurt we will collectively inflict on Glitch at the conclusion of the CLAIM DUEL.

[Expedience]

ok really someone sum-up the arguments on expedience and glitch because I ain't reading that
Basically what I understood you vote Expedience for him wanting Glitch to claim (which is bs because why would scum ever say that?)
and glitch because?

Well, it's not a simple thing like that.

If I try and explain it in detail, it becomes like that post I made talking to Martha only even more inaccessible.

[Expedience]

Because of the way he claims, and what he claims. I can't say more without giving him direct instructions on how to look town.

Prefunctionary edit: This post is aimed at Ryan.

[Expedience]

info

reeeeeeeêeeeeeèeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Expedience]

Expedience, I really don't know what to make of you.
This is some pretty creative flailing you're doing, and I've seen quite a gamut of styles in my day.

I'm interested in your claim. I'm also interested in Glitch's claim now, so, mission accomplished for you I guess.

I'm not very happy with how Martha is hopping around like a bunny on crack whose tail is on fire. I want that slot dead before endgame.

I never flail, I am serene.

The CLAIM DUEL is in part inspired by the approaching deadline.

If Glitch is town, he will immediately stop lurking in the scum PT after he gets prodded, and claim to initiate the CLAIM DUEL. Otherwise, he acknowledges that he would rather stall and hope a deadline wagon forms on me, because fewer players are willing to vote him currently.

[Expedience]

No really a ryan lynch is the way to go.
He either flips scum or in the slim chance of him flipping town there will be a lot of info to work with simply because everyone has interacted with him at one point or another.
Pedit: lolk

Also, you've missed out something. I've not interacted with BlueBloodedToffee, golden009, and Chuck.

Even if you had interacted with those people, lynching you would not have any more value. It's invariably a scum excuse to lynch someone.

Don't listen to Martha or anyone else, you're playing fine.

[Expedience]

It is absolutely and unambiguously not going to be juicy and informative looking at the policy votes that keep piling up on Ryan.

[Expedience]

Expedience, I really don't know what to make of you.
This is some pretty creative flailing you're doing, and I've seen quite a gamut of styles in my day.

I'm interested in your claim. I'm also interested in Glitch's claim now, so, mission accomplished for you I guess.

I'm not very happy with how Martha is hopping around like a bunny on crack whose tail is on fire. I want that slot dead before endgame.

I never flail, I am serene.

The CLAIM DUEL is in part inspired by the approaching deadline.

If Glitch is town, he will immediately stop lurking in the scum PT after he gets prodded, and claim to initiate the CLAIM DUEL. Otherwise, he acknowledges that he would rather stall and hope a deadline wagon forms on me, because fewer players are willing to vote him currently.

What's the use of Claim Duel? Isn't that a little bit scummy of you, Expedience? Yes, We all know Glitch looks scum. If Glitch claimed town and a pr , Then obviously he'll be night killed by the mafia? I'm not pointing out that Glitch isn't a scum but there's a possibility...

We'll see what he claims then. Glitch isn't a town PR because he's scum, and such.

[Expedience]

If Glitch is town, he will immediately stop lurking in the scum PT after he gets prodded, and claim to initiate the CLAIM DUEL. Otherwise, he acknowledges that he would rather stall and hope a deadline wagon forms on me, because fewer players are willing to vote him currently.

And how is Glitch stalling his wagon any different compared to Ryan when he was stalling his?

Well, to start with I don't believe such an event occured.

RyanK is always here to respond to any enquiries, 24 / 7.

[Expedience]

It is absolutely and unambiguously not going to be juicy and informative looking at the policy votes that keep piling up on Ryan.

My vote isn't policy

In that case all the "ryan is a worse player than me omg" votes as well as the "ryan is so jumpy / is sheeping / has moving parts, omg hes scum" votes will be similarly brushed aside with "oh. he was just misunderstood and we all either misread or pretended to misread him". zero information.

[Expedience]

Glitch, in contrast, is due for a prod conveniently immediately after he is challenged to a CLAIM DUEL.

[Expedience]

@Saru

It might be that the underlined section is the source of our difficulty. My philosophy (and the basis of the RVS) is that a vote for weak reasons, or no reasons, is better than no vote; that is, I would happily have cast a vote for even

weaker

reasons than what I gave if I couldn't find anything more worthwhile. As I was able to read rb as Town with some degree of confidence, I made that the basis of my vote.
Your description of my style appears to be based on Mini 1800; I had a late entrance in that game such that we had significant game-advancing content by the time that I arrived. My initial vote in that game is more typical of my "third vote" in a game that starts in RVS. My entrance in Mini 1817 is a more typical pattern for my "first vote" and the one is this game is more like a "second vote" pattern (compare to my second vote in Mini 1817; compare all three to votes in previous games--one good example in which I actually got all three votes in during the same game is Newbie 1712).

Ah, now I see what you're saying. I did a quick ISO of Newbie 1712 and I understand what you mean by the three votes. Essentially, the first vote is always just RVS. Second vote is based on minimal information near or at the end of RVS, and the third vote is usually put out via extensive analysis of things long after RVS is over. So your vote on gameplay here was more second vote than first or third, and so your logic behind it actually matches up nicely with that. Did I understand that correctly? Either way:
UNVOTE:
I like your explanation and it puts me more at ease about you. Still don't know how to read you but I guess I'll just have to wait and see more from you.

The Expedience wagon doesn't make any sense to me. Ok, he asked Glitch for a claim, so? Not like he's automatically forced to give one. I also don't think scum just outright asks for a claim like that. I don't however understand what the purpose of a "claim duel" is, and I've actually never even heard of such a thing lol.

I also didn't have much of a read on Glitch, but I do agree with Dierfire and Expedience that his tone towards Chuck when it comes to reading him seems very odd and comes off as distancing. Dierfire sums it up pretty well with this:

You both expressed suspicion of her, so it was unclear why you felt that Chuck was suspicious given his focus on Naomi-Tan. It's the sort of thing that comes up when a Mafia player is cooperating with a partner while trying to create distance.

I also thought that Expedience made a compelling point in 1126 against Glitch. I'm curious to see what he has to say about that.

@Expedience: I know you said you didn't want to reveal too much, but can you give atleast some idea as to what you seek to accomplish from a "claim duel"? It seems like you want Glitch's lynch no matter what, so why does claiming make a difference for you?

It makes a difference because it will get other people to vote him.

If two people enter a CLAIM DUEL, only one survives. That's how it works.

[Expedience]

It is absolutely and unambiguously not going to be juicy and informative looking at the policy votes that keep piling up on Ryan.

My vote isn't policy

In that case all the "ryan is a worse player than me omg" votes as well as the "ryan is so jumpy / is sheeping / has moving parts, omg hes scum" votes will be similarly brushed aside with "oh. he was just misunderstood and we all either misread or pretended to misread him". zero information.

Yes, My vote is a policy lynch but I am doing this for town's sake. And If Ryan flips scum, You and rb are surely scum team. People just don't listen to me but I need to follow my gut feeling. And because I barely see you two interact with each other.

I don't think you understand that losing a member of your faction, even if you don't like them, is literally never worth it. There's an opportunity cost of lynching actual scum, too.

I don't know how to convince you that Ryan is town. You don't seem very reasonable.

[Expedience]

Glitch, in contrast, is due for a prod conveniently immediately after he is challenged to a CLAIM DUEL.

Maybe rl things

Even if it is, it helps scum and he could easily use this as an excuse to lurk more. Glitch needs to claim immediately when he gets back.

[Expedience]

omfg you keep taking steps backwards

Ryan is town because he is super genuine. Nothing to hide, he knows what's up and he isn't afraid to tell us his (possibly simplistic but I prefer "pure") thoughts.

Can't write an in depth post, but I do have some Q's.

What does lynching Chuck, BBT, or me accomplish?

A Chuck lynch is not a big red flag to me but I'm also not convinced of it. But I'm not on board with a BBT lynch at this point because there's not a lot of content he's contributed so far, and of the content that he has contributed so far I don't remember much about (sorry).

I know the general consensus has shifted away from Ryan here, but it's too much to ignore in my mind that his playstyle conveniently shifted to being a bit more on the serious side once the pressure became real and not just a vote or two. When he got to around four or five he started contributing some more serious content but still in small nuggets peppered with his normal illogicality.

RyanK, I'm not really interested in waiting until tomorrow to figure out why you're playing the way you are, and it's odd to me that that's gone unchallenged when you said you would explain in Day 2.

What's up with the more serious tone in the second part of the day so far? Why the change? And why can't you explain now?

My plan was to collect some common playstyles of scum and town and their thought process behind it. But I didn't want anyone to subotage that data as it may result in inaccurate reads.

The more serious tone is most likely an effect of feeling I'm playing terribly this time.

This is a Ryan version of the post that made me think you were town, Martha (578).

If Ryan was scum, he would be lurking super hard and trying not to draw any attention to himself. He's town because he just gives zero fucks and wants to find scum at the expense of his ego and his vote.

If Ryan was in his final form, he would unflinchingly take every single one of those crayons and shove them consecutively into your eyesockets if he got even the slightest hint that you were scumreading him. You haven't seen anything yet.

[Expedience]

Here are my thoughts, in case this day ends soon.
- I read back on Glitch and Expedience. I can't believe both are scum, because of their interactions. So far I have been leaning Expedience, which would by PoE make Glitch town. However, by rereading I realized Glitch has been flattering me from the start with strong townreads, while Expedience has been attacking me. This may cloud my judgment.
- I see Glitch trying to get Martha killed, assuming Martha is indeed a town PR (and if he's scum, he'd pretty much know) these attempt look very scummy indeed.

Hence I hereby express willingness to hammer, though I'll wait 48 hours or so to give Glitch a chance to claim.

Now, if Glitch flips scum, I feel we should look at BBT next, there is a connection there (but that's for day 2). Unlikely partners: Chuck, Expedience, Martha, rb, Dierfire. If Glitch flips scum, these are all very likely town. Gameplay or Ryan could also be scum with Glitch. Golden, Saru and Pitoli are big question marks.

How sure are you that Glitch is scum?

This is a horrible post. I don't buy your position at all, you went from me being scum to "glitch confscum intent to hammer lets find partners" in 0.1 seconds. I think you're scum especially with Glitch.

If you were town I think you would've been less sure on Glitch because you were already scumreading me pretty hard.

I would rather lynch you than Glitch for fear that this is scum opportunism and I'm not 100% confident on Glitch being scum at times.

But I didn't say that because it would fuck the momentum that took so long to form.

[Expedience]

VC 1.13

Dierfire (5)

: Saru, golden009, rb, Cass, Martha Zolanski

VC 1.15

Martha Zolanski (5)

: Cass, pitoli, Expedience, rb, RyanK

Want these in my ISO so I remember to look over them.

That was a quick transition.

Yes, that is an interesting part. We were on Dierfire, then he made a decent post, then I made a case on martha (489), Pitoli & Golden vaguely sheeped me but without voting. Martha defends against my case and her and me get into a fight that's mostly misunderstandings and language-issues, I think (it's pretty unreadable, I apologize for my part in that). Then Pitoli (497) notes that Martha's and my posts 'synch up', and we could be following eachother onto wagons. (Note when ISO-ing: Martha here increases the confusion by posting a few times with and ALT account, keyenpeydee.)
Now Pitoli votes Martha, and Martha votes Ryan. Rb likes Dierfire's post and joins the Martha wagon, starts pushing it, as does Pitoli. Now Expedience (replaced Naomi) joins the wagon, but still thinks Dierfire is scum too. (

509 - This one reinforces my scumread on Expedience.

) Rb feels the wagon is going too fast now, too easy (

I can see what he means...

) and unvotes Martha (also calls Saru, Pitoli and Golden town). Expedience attacks Martha and defends Ryan. Based on this - I think because he's somehow reassured that Expedience is town (

unlike me

) -, rb revotes Martha(523.
(

Off topic: Post 528 makes me wonder if I could be wrong about gameplay; could he be Expedience's partner?

)
Now Martha says she can't defend herself because there are 'scums' on her wagon (wagon is now (4): Cass, pitoli, Expedience, rb). Martha starts to panic, suggests self-hammering, calls her own wagon good, etc. Now Ryan joins the wagon (

can't blame him, really

), making it L-2.

We are now at 550 (the second vote-count). What happens right after this is also interesting. The wagon weakens, as Ryan and Expedience back off. (

Omg, expedience looks so scummy doing that.

)
Then in 578 with just 3 votes on her, Martha soft-claims (maybe explaining the earlier panic?). After that, almost everyone (including me) backs off.

I was never scumreading Dierfire, it was saying "same level of null as before".

[Expedience]

Her point that you and Glitch are unlikely scumpartners is true though.

But after all the confidence pushing me that should lead her to Glitch being town because I'm scum.

You're saying that you think Cass is bussing Glitch? I can work with that since Cass isn't actually voting Glitch. If Glitch flips scum, this could be towncred play.

I guess

[Expedience]

Well Martha is a different thing entirely, I don't expect coherence from him. Martha's town for sure, just plays the game in a really weird way.

[Expedience]

{Martha, Ryan, gameplay}
{rb, BBT, Dierfire, pitoli}
{golden, Saru}
{Chuck}
{Glitch, Cass}

I want to hear what Chuck has to say about Glitch's claim when the CLAIM DUEL is initiated. Because it bothers me that he's interested in Glitch's claim after berating me for asking him to claim in the first instance.

Reading Saru's post townreading me gave me very

filthy

feelings.

Ryan, do you think Glitch is town or scum?

[Expedience]

This large wagon swing makes me feel like scum were definitely in on it, even if not necessarily leading it.

I agree with Glitch however, that if he flips town, Expedience looks more town due to the claim duel thing.

That makes me suspect that either/both of RyanK and Martha Zolanski would be the scum he was a counter wagon to.

The fact that he was mostly gone during his wagon's growth is also a deciding factor in that it was a bad wagon.

It's disappointing that you guys didn't at least wait until I got back. Pushing through a wagon on the weekend is bad form even when people haven't announced V/LA.

This is immediately after Glitch was hammered. I feel like this post is expecting Glitch to flip town because it only overs scenarios where this is the case. like he starts with "if he flips town" then devolves into outright assumption

It's unreasonable for town!Chuck to presume a town flip here, his post where he realized he wa hammered actually looked like a scumclaim to me (since it showed his aim was survival (however his play before that was pretty town and made my heart sink reading it)). Chuck never took a stance on Glitch, just let it happen and then tried to set up new pushes afterwards, but he did it slightly too prematurely.

The CLAIM DUEL thing is something that happened a while ago, Glitch didn't really bring anything revelatory to light there. Chuck could've made his own evaluation of the CLAIM DUEL when he made that post about how oddly interested he was in the claims of two town members. This is a really unnatural progression and shows that he didn't really believe all the crap he was throwing at me before. All the suspicion on me is completely gone! It's probably because he mistakenly thought I was a PR (and didn't notice that Martha was one?).

VOTE: Chuck

[Expedience]

Yes, that was the predictable NK. Too bad she was the doc and not something the doc could have protected. And rather sad she panicked like that and soft-claimed, as a doc of all things. Sigh.

I don't think Ryan is the best starting point for today, we went over him a lot last day and it doesn't look urgent now. BBT should have finally read up by now, so I want to hear his thoughts. I read him as possibly linked to Glitch, but Glitch flipped vt. I want tohear Expedience talk about last day, what was he thinking? And what is he thinking now.

I'll answer specific questions.

Where did Martha softclaim doctor?

[Expedience]

I'm slightly suspicious of rb, nothing concrete. golden is empty null and I wouldn't PoE yet.

[Expedience]

1380 and 1383 both strike me as trying to distance yourself from the responsibility of the D1 lynch. The connotation of 1380 in particular goes like "k, you idiots ready to listen to me now??" which just comes off incredibly scummy.

You're going to have to convince me why the Glitch wagon was a compromise for you when rb, one of your top scumreads, was pushing it.

I don't think gameplay did that, he's just trying to lynch his scumreads. There's no responsibility it's just a game.

[Expedience]

Who else do you think could be scum on either of those VCs Expedience?

Because I'm town reading everyone on both wagons except for rb.

Cass, pitoli, Saru (although not on wagon)

VCA doesn't make sense to me anyway, I think it's usually coincidence / statistics that scum are on a wagon, I never have that in mind as scum.

[Expedience]

Yes, that was the predictable NK. Too bad she was the doc and not something the doc could have protected. And rather sad she panicked like that and soft-claimed, as a doc of all things. Sigh.

I don't think Ryan is the best starting point for today, we went over him a lot last day and it doesn't look urgent now. BBT should have finally read up by now, so I want to hear his thoughts. I read him as possibly linked to Glitch, but Glitch flipped vt. I want tohear Expedience talk about last day, what was he thinking? And what is he thinking now.

I'll answer specific questions.

Where did Martha softclaim doctor?

My question refers to the Claim Duel business. Why did you do that?? And how do you feel about it after the flip? People are calling you more town over it, but I'm mostly just confused by it.

Martha softclaims in 578, for summary of the context read my 1280. She didn't softclaim doctor, just PR. I also really didn't think she'd be a doctor because that makes her behaviour there frankly even more insane. (One could even say anti-town, but I'll be generous and call it panick.) (Hence my sigh.)

I did that to try and get Glitch lynched instead of me (at the expense of my claim), I feel regret that I pushed the wrong guy.

I actually thought Martha claimed cop in 1367 and I got really confused and thought she was fakeclaiming, but it turns out I'm illiterate lol

[Expedience]

The many happenings from post 761 to post 864

An accusation was made against Glitch,
By Expedience, who decided to lynch,
The accusation was based on his defence,
About synchronized posts, for Martha and Cass.

The reason, for Glitch's vote on me,
Was brought in Gameplay, with an accusation,
Glitch's reason for vote was a bit fishy,
The reason for it, was my lack of reason.

It was fishy, because he stated,
Lack of arguments, isn't a scumread,
Thus, another argument was thrown quickly,
By five-zero-six gameplay.

Rb came in and accused gameplay,
For he thought Dierfire as scum,
But decided to vote me anyway.

Gameplay, defended himself poorly,
Because of defensiveness, which turned things terribly,
However, defensiveness isn't a scum tell,
As both factions, may react defensively.

Rb looked terrible while attacking gameplay,
As opportunism, is a very strong scum tell,
That such a strong scum read was found finally.

The conclusion, I will let you make your own,
As bias reads, shouldn't be well known.

-Ryan

I dont get this

And I still dont get what this means

some sick beats

[Expedience]

Fuck, Dierfire has done 0 scum hunting.

Fuck this fucking game.

He's always like this iirc. I'm townreading him slightly because involvement

[Expedience]

BBT - wtf, you accuse people of spamming this game, which I agree with, but then proceed to do the same yourself and so make it even worse. Agree with Gameplay about the rb point, it's nonsense.

But gameplay has me as a strong scumreas, but then says this slip isn't a slip?

Oh right because he knows I'm town.

You can admit that you're reaching here.

Who else do you think is scum?

[Expedience]

Yeah. Here's why.

That post assumes I am town, does it not? If you ISO me before that post, I had posted NOTHING of content. My predecessor hadn't even posted so I don't know why the hell rb is assuming I am town in that post.

Compare it to this post later on;

Hey BlueBloodedToffee if you're town can you just come demolish this scumlord with me? Thanks.

I really hope BBT is town because if he is we win.

And the first one could be a legit slip.

I don't really see it either, more like he's posting that to get a read on you. There's not a lot of stuff said on the assumption. I don't care for the way he phrases it though, sounds

weak

.

[Expedience]

Fuck, Dierfire has done 0 scum hunting.

Fuck this fucking game.

He's always like this iirc. I'm townreading him slightly because involvement

not the type of involvement that he isn't doing, just how he's on top of the game and analyzing it deeply and actually reaching conclusions

[Expedience]

Yeah, just kind of passively.

[Expedience]

It's unreasonable for town!Chuck to presume a town flip here, his post where he realized he was hammered actually looked like a scumclaim to me (since it showed his aim was survival (however his play before that was pretty town and made my heart sink reading it)). Chuck never took a stance on Glitch, just let it happen and then tried to set up new pushes afterwards, but he did it slightly too prematurely.

I'm not sure I understand how the presumption was unreasonable. When I read that post, I thought to myself that Glitch was going to flip VT for sure there. As much as I hate working within absolution, Glitch had noted several times himself that he was a newbie. One can assume that newbscum doesn't troll in regards to their flip with posts like 1362 and 1363. Just read them. They sound unbelievably genuine. I can understand why Chuck works with the presumption that Glitch will flip town in his post, because I had the same feelings at that point.

Glitch only realized that he was lynched in 1363, I agree that his post sounded genuine but did Chuck think that? I doubt it, his only justification for the rest of his pre-flip analysis was "if this flips town", didn't specify that he thought Glitch would flip town or why.

It wasn't like he claimed town after being hammered like you're making it seem.

Rather than being a slip I read it as an optimistic sort of appeal. This game is so full of shit rb was really hoping you'd be town at that point to help cut through all the bs. Probably just assuming from your join date and the number of posts you have on this site, he thought you'd be a real asset if town-aligned.

Agreed. Definitely doesn't feel like a slip. The point at which that post by rb was made really gives it an authentic "optimistic appeal" vibe. Reaching out to players who haven't posted much yet in a positive way will most likely get them to post more because it doesn't try to demonize their behavior. What rb did was actually pretty pro-town because he doesn't put pressure on BBT to post more, which is what scum might try to do in that situation. He simply says "look, I've heard how you are, feel free to jump in and give input." If it were more like "look guys, BBT is this amazing town player and he hasn't even posted yet!", then yes, that'd be more scum looking for an opportunity to throw shade. This thing about rb actually feels very similar to the thing about Chuck that Expedience pointed out. I can see why both might seem like slips, but I feel like it might be a case of reading too much into it.

Not really, I think you're reading too much into that. I can make up my own story as to how it has scum motivation just as easily

I'm not saying that Chuck slipped, just that his stances don't seem realistic.

Fuck, Dierfire has done 0 scum hunting.

Fuck this fucking game.

He's always like this iirc. I'm townreading him slightly because involvement

not the type of involvement that he isn't doing, just how he's on top of the game and analyzing it deeply and actually reaching conclusions

While I agree that Dierfire is always like this, I don't think his "involvement" makes much sense to town read him on. The reality is this: Dier involves himself in a game with a burst of posts once a day, maybe once every two days. He answers questions directed towards him and makes comments on current events and usually doesn't put out a solid vote until much later. He does that regardless of alignment. There isn't much to parse from him because his ability to analyze and reach conclusions is just who he is, and he never scarifies that part of him to play towards any particular win-con.

You're right I know, he feels town to me though and I think it's more than just that

Yeah, just kind of passively.

"Passive" scum hunting isn't a thing. You either scum hunt or you don't. You don't catch scum by being passive about it, because then scum can be just as nonchalant and get away with it. Do you town read Dier on anything besides his "passive" involvement, because your current read on him seems forced.

Okay, "passive involvement" is an oxymoron.

It's not forced, it's a weak gut read that you got bothered by semantics. I just think that BBT is scumreading him for null things.

[Expedience]

Why are you going to have the last laugh anyway?

[Expedience]

Why are you going to have the last laugh anyway?

Seems fairly obvious. This is a 1v1 you won't win, and when you flip scum I will be vindicated. The only reason for your read on me never to change is because I'm your #1 detractor and you can't survive unless I'm dead, because if you night kill me it'll seal your death warrant. Play dumb though, see how well that works out for you.

More votes on Expedience.

Compromise lynches are usually when you lynch someone else that one of your townreads wants to lynch, but you can't get each other to agree. They're not when you lynch the target of one of your top scumreads.

when a lynch requires more than half of the players in the game there is obviously quite a fair chance both categories are involved.

So tell me why you are Garcia-ing my point to pitoli instead of letting him answer for himself?


Preview edit: Sure you will.

You really think that when you're already at 3 votes? No, you don't.

This confidence can't be real. You went from me being confscum -> town -> confscum all with almost no foundation.

[Expedience]

Wait, I just realized the obvious way to do this

Chuck, I challenge you to a CLAIM DUEL!

[Expedience]

my extremely well-made case

No, this is not sincere at all.

You're posturing really hard and that's a gap

There was no mention of this new "you didn't reevaluate the flip!!" and I think you're making this up as you go along with the only real focus of "try to push him really really hard"

It's making this unenjoyable to play and i'm not sure if that's my fault or not.

[Expedience]

ok VOTE: golden

[Expedience]

I dislike that rb is not taking strong stances, he isn't even voting.

[Expedience]

Because they're posting makes me quite sure they're town.

Did you read up?

Nope. Will do it over the night phase.

So, if he didn't read up, how was he able to think pitoli as town because of her posting?

Probably because he read up partially or just read pitoli's iso. It's not this black and white and not significant anyway.

[Expedience]

Well Saru is probably town after that, I don't agree about his perspective re: LurkerScum Status, but he feels righteous and genuine. Not the type of person who would deliberately fake that either.

Chuck is n, he is being deliberately and actively contrary by scumreading BBT. No real case behind it and I'll admit that he had a stronger case (more well-composed case is what I mean) to think I'm scum, just going all-in after he worked out being hyperconfident got people to stop voting him.

From rb I think being aggressive like that is null. rb, do you think Saru is scum? It's not clear

[Expedience]

Nevermind, I didn't read 1555 properly.

That's not believable, since when do scum deliberately goad people into being toxic? That's not a thing and I don't think you think it is. This is chuck-tier "how do u know pitoli is town xd???"

Can you not see the town resonance from his posts?

What happened to gameplay? Guess you couldn't get him either if you're town

[Expedience]

@Expedience, Saru is playing victim just like scum always do. His reaction to being called a dickhead is hugely overblown. He's scum pretending to be upset for townpoints.

Ockham's razor disagrees, he sounds genuine too. It's not overblown and you're both escalating it.

I am ignoring 1584, a can of hornets

[Expedience]

okay, I'm not sure if you're saying that you changed your mind or trying to prove a point about Chuck but I'm okay with that.

[Expedience]

Hey I didn't write that =(

I just read Saru as town for what he posted arguing with you, not even you or Chuck. I said nothing about TvT and agree that it's not a good way to see things

[Expedience]

K, rb, I don't get you - but whatever your logic may be, you are wrong about me.

How about this compromise: We lynch Golden today, and you wagon me next day? At that point we may be able to 'conf' a thing or two. And base decisions on things we

can

talk about.

Why would you want to be lynched?

You've never suggested this idea until now, and if you think it would benefit us why not just vote yourself now?

[Expedience]

Of all the people that could've replaced that slot

[Expedience]

Still at work but taking a quick break

VC 1.39
Glitch (7): Expedience, rb, gameplay506, Martha Zolanski, Dierfire, BlueBloodedToffee, pitoli
Expedience (2): Chuck, Cass
Martha Zolanski (2): golden009, Glitch
BlueBloodedToffee (1): RyanK

Not Voting: Saru

Based on this vote count and the vote count on me Expedience and Saru likely scum possibly with Blue Blooded Toffee. This lynch happened way too fast especially since I know I am town. Expedience seems to have been vote sitting need to figure out why.

Unless Saru is on V/LA they are likely scum as they usually swapped votes more.

Need to read posts to confirm my theory.

More like you just chose two players and looked for reasons to scumread them. It's unbelievably convenient that reading through confirms what you decided from looking at a couple of vote counts.

The reasons to vote Saru are just ridiculous and definitely manufactured.

The things that makes me hesitate are the immediate VT claim, Chuck's attitude towards this, and the fact that you might actually just play like this as town. I never really tried to read Mathblade before. Chuck is scum though. I also feel like I could be trusting BBT too much because he appears a lot more consistently confident about a lurker lynch than I am. In conclusion, feeling meh about this but gun to head I'd say scum

[Expedience]

This is false. I gave reasons as to why they were in my lynch pool(1465). To be fair, it's something that comes out of PoE because I have lots of town/null-town reads, so I don't necessarily think that (Ryan, Golden, Dier) is the scum team; this is very unlikely, but I'm working within my reads at the moment. If they change, my lynch pool will also change.

From Saru's ISO.

This is not town Saru.
Town Saru was argumentative and more confrontational. He had no problems arguing with the thread.

but he is, look at the argument with rb he shows himself as town

TownSaru also never repeated phrasings. He repeats "This is false." As if this is something he must prepare. I will go into detail once I am not skimming ISOs for town and feel but this feels off.

no

Too scummy to be scum is a lazy ass excuse to list of somebody as town.
More fitting here would be "too dumb to be scum" but its still all the same.

That's not really what I'm saying. More like, "too outgoing, too much effort to be scum" because that's why I'm townreading him. And then I am bothered by the lack of consistency. Like, look at the thing he posted just now. That's a town post for a newbie, he wants answers and he's hounding you for them. Ryan isn't dumb, it's just he has distanced himself from mortal affairs and concerns himself only with simple questions and answers.

But I know I have a documented distrust of d1 wagons.

Expedience should know that effort is a shitty reason to town read someone from Gistou. Not buying this in an ISO perspective but need to get a read to be sure later.

um, no and it was more nuanced than that

Also, where even is Ryan?

[Expedience]

@Mod: V/LA until 12:00 AM 10/9/2016 (GMT+8)

because I'm in vacation in the southern peninsula Malaysia, which usually has an unstable internet.

Probably because he was vla in Malaysia is why I got the impression he was posting way less.

[Expedience]

Why BBT? I'm thinking the exact opposite.

Tell us, everyone can see you're eager to explain

[Expedience]

Hi?

[Expedience]

Ah, a replace after all. Welcome Mathblade

The VT claim sounds legit, Math doesn't look like the best lynch anymore, so:

UNVOTE: Mathblade
And my vote goes to:
VOTE: Expedience
Mostly for post 1639. Chuck is definitely scum, Mathblade/Golden is meh, but your vote stays on the big wagon - yeah right.

Yes, I am voting a null / slight scum read because they have a larger wagon, this is called compromising.

[Expedience]

I'd rather not respond to Math's meta case because meta takes ages to sort through and I don't have the time, nor patience, to do so.

Rb already trying to absolve himself of any responsibility of my lynch. Rb be scum.

Math/rb/Chuck is where I'm at.

Just quote us two games where MathBlade's meta argument is inaccurate.

I think rb is town because he has approximately 25% the concentration of "tbh" than in another game I checked.

Also, he's finding rhythm. (this is actually the primary reason)

[Expedience]

I think rb is town because he has approximately 25% the concentration of "tbh" than in another game I checked.

Also, he's finding rhythm. (this is actually the primary reason)

[Expedience]

This large wagon swing makes me feel like scum were definitely in on it, even if not necessarily leading it.

I agree with Glitch however, that if he flips town, Expedience looks more town due to the claim duel thing.

That makes me suspect that either/both of RyanK and Martha Zolanski would be the scum he was a counter wagon to.

The fact that he was mostly gone during his wagon's growth is also a deciding factor in that it was a bad wagon.

It's disappointing that you guys didn't at least wait until I got back. Pushing through a wagon on the weekend is bad form even when people haven't announced V/LA.

This is immediately after Glitch was hammered. I feel like this post is expecting Glitch to flip town because it only overs scenarios where this is the case. like he starts with "if he flips town" then devolves into outright assumption

It's unreasonable for town!Chuck to presume a town flip here, his post where he realized he wa hammered actually looked like a scumclaim to me (since it showed his aim was survival (however his play before that was pretty town and made my heart sink reading it)). Chuck never took a stance on Glitch, just let it happen and then tried to set up new pushes afterwards, but he did it slightly too prematurely.

The CLAIM DUEL thing is something that happened a while ago, Glitch didn't really bring anything revelatory to light there. Chuck could've made his own evaluation of the CLAIM DUEL when he made that post about how oddly interested he was in the claims of two town members. This is a really unnatural progression and shows that he didn't really believe all the crap he was throwing at me before. All the suspicion on me is completely gone! It's probably because he mistakenly thought I was a PR (and didn't notice that Martha was one?).

VOTE: Chuck

So you're voting Chuck, who dropped his suspicion of you because he thought you were a PR, and killed Martha, who WAS a PR... that he didn't notice was one?

Please explain, I'm confused as shit.

Yes, that's what I wrote.

On second thought, it's more likely that he backed down because he thought I wouldn't get lynched, or scumread Martha because wanted to look town for scumreading the guy who got killed, and whether or not we were PRs had nothing to do with it. I don't think it really matters but at the time I was anxious to work things out.

[Expedience]

I know there has to be scum in BBT RB Saru and Expedience.

inb4 all town

[Expedience]

rb, do you still think the House slot is scum?

[Expedience]

This large wagon swing makes me feel like scum were definitely in on it, even if not necessarily leading it.

I agree with Glitch however, that if he flips town, Expedience looks more town due to the claim duel thing.

That makes me suspect that either/both of RyanK and Martha Zolanski would be the scum he was a counter wagon to.

The fact that he was mostly gone during his wagon's growth is also a deciding factor in that it was a bad wagon.

It's disappointing that you guys didn't at least wait until I got back. Pushing through a wagon on the weekend is bad form even when people haven't announced V/LA.

This is immediately after Glitch was hammered. I feel like this post is expecting Glitch to flip town because it only overs scenarios where this is the case. like he starts with "if he flips town" then devolves into outright assumption

It's unreasonable for town!Chuck to presume a town flip here, his post where he realized he wa hammered actually looked like a scumclaim to me (since it showed his aim was survival (however his play before that was pretty town and made my heart sink reading it)). Chuck never took a stance on Glitch, just let it happen and then tried to set up new pushes afterwards, but he did it slightly too prematurely.

The CLAIM DUEL thing is something that happened a while ago, Glitch didn't really bring anything revelatory to light there. Chuck could've made his own evaluation of the CLAIM DUEL when he made that post about how oddly interested he was in the claims of two town members. This is a really unnatural progression and shows that he didn't really believe all the crap he was throwing at me before. All the suspicion on me is completely gone! It's probably because he mistakenly thought I was a PR (and didn't notice that Martha was one?).

VOTE: Chuck

So you're voting Chuck, who dropped his suspicion of you because he thought you were a PR, and killed Martha, who WAS a PR... that he didn't notice was one?

Please explain, I'm confused as shit.

Yes, that's what I wrote.

On second thought, it's more likely that he backed down because he thought I wouldn't get lynched, or scumread Martha because wanted to look town for scumreading the guy who got killed, and whether or not we were PRs had nothing to do with it. I don't think it really matters but at the time I was anxious to work things out.

Scumreading the guy that got killed wouldn't make him look town. If anything, it would incriminate him because it's indicative that he wanted that player dead, if he's scum.

I treat it as a towntell because I would never kill someone I could mislynch or could continue to tunnel to look town. Apart from you, I haven't seen anyone before who thinks this way of trying to mislynch their threats.

Sure it matters. If you see flawed reasoning, it's best to correct it to prevent such reasoning from infecting future games.

A noble aim

[Expedience]

I'm semi-ignoring you because I don't enjoy interacting with you.

I was inactive because I was studying for my exam which was today.

[Expedience]

This gives me an idea...

Everybody pick four top scumreads. Compare everybody's top four. Lynch the player that is most widely scumread among all players.

Chuck, Cass, Mathblade. I don't have a fourth. Maybe pitoli or rb?

[Expedience]

This gives me an idea...

Everybody pick four top scumreads. Compare everybody's top four. Lynch the player that is most widely scumread among all players.

you got it friend!

[Expedience]

you got it friend!

ebwop

[Expedience]

I'm semi-ignoring you because I don't enjoy interacting with you.

I was inactive because I was studying for my exam which was today.

You are ignoring me... because you don't enjoy interacting with me?

That's funny, I thought it was because you were compromising!

Silly me!

Seriously just stop I don't even know what you're trying to say

BBT, is your read on Mathblade 100% gut or you just don't want to explain? I don't know what to think of that, I didn't like how rb kept asking "why are you scumreading them?" and you just kept repeating "its null for me not to explain" rather than actually answering. Because at this point I'm worrying that you are not actually this confbiased and just faking bravado.

I don't even trust my scumreads at this point I just gave my vote to BBT.

[Expedience]

Not answering questions, and not explaining reads, are both concrete examples of objectively anti-town play.

Are you done with the completely superfluous theory lesson yet?

Are you going to discourage objectively anti-town play, or are you going to continue to defend it?

So your vote (not sure if you're voting him or not, otherwise push) on BBT is policy?

This post is disgusting regardless of your answer.

[Expedience]

This gives me an idea...

Everybody pick four top scumreads. Compare everybody's top four. Lynch the player that is most widely scumread among all players.

Chuck, Cass, Mathblade. I don't have a fourth. Maybe pitoli or rb?

If I recall correctly, piloting is popping up with a lot of townreads. Why do you suspect them?

They've posted a lot but haven't done anything I thought was town and a few posts I thought were scum. They've been in my peripheral vision for most of the game, not a strong read.

[Expedience]

Havent read yet will read after work.
However I did see last vote count I am at L-1 I am a VT.

Please give me a chance to read the thread and post thoughts.

And FYI my pronoun is them.

Why did you claim immediately before even reading the thread?

I thought you were the person always getting annoyed when people claimed prematurely

[Expedience]

Chuck arguing that House is "defending BBT's anti-town play" is disingenuous as fuck.

[Expedience]

No. If I explain it is antitown.

I think this is a town post.

VOTE: Chuck

[Expedience]

House thinks some strange things, and decided to make a code of it for some inexplicable reason which mislead others

[Expedience]

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee
He's sitting back in his armchair trying to look as nonchalant as possible and I'm not having any of that shit.

I PMed the mod asking if he could issue BBT some sort of warning to actually participate in the game. That being said, if BBT is scum, I doubt that he will try to win by doing this coasting strategy all game.

It's not the coasting that bothers me, it's "look at me, i'm coasting!".

And this is how anti-town play differs from scum play.

Do you really think scum would not only coast, but beat you over the head with that fact? Hell nah. That's PR play all day long.

yes :/

[Expedience]

Chuck arguing that House is "defending BBT's anti-town play" is disingenuous as fuck.

Why? I was.

Okay, that's not really what I meant.

House: "I think bbt is antitown but not scum"
Chuck: "why are you defending bbt's antitown play? thats rather odd dont you think?" [scumvoice]

When he was voting BBT saying that he was scum, not as policy. And it was clear he got the idea that you weren't voting BBT on policy because you thought he was town, but he was trying to feebly manipulate people into voting him anyway with all that MD post cancer.

It's just really opportunistic, he saw you saying that he was anti-town but town and then jumped onto that even though he didn't believe what he was arguing. <- this explains it best.

And his tone sounds like something I would say if I was screwing around and not being serious, only Chuck is zrzbznz. Which means he's scum, because it's fake.

BBT's play wasn't even anti-town

[Expedience]

Not answering questions, and not explaining reads, are both concrete examples of objectively anti-town play.

Are you done with the completely superfluous theory lesson yet?

Are you going to discourage objectively anti-town play, or are you going to continue to defend it?

anti-town play != scum play

Why equivocate the two?

I'm not equivocating the two in the least.

Answer my question:
Are you going to discourage objectively anti-town play, or are you going to continue to defend it?

I refuse to lynch town simply because they are playing anti-town.

Period.

And you know he's town... How?

EVERY TIME HE FUCKING SAYS THIS

[Expedience]

Ahhh. That's the *exact* opposite of what we needed.

Silver lining though, she was who I wanted to lynch today so at least now I get to save some face.

RyanK looks really bad right about now.

BlueBloodedToffee is sneaking up on my scumdar as well.

VOTE: Chuck

?

I don't like to look stupid.

this is fake innocence bullshit. 1377 is a WIFOM pseudoscumclaim with what House pointed out, because concern about appearances is a soft scumtell.

The question mark doesn't belong, Chuck knows exactly what he's doing

I'm beyond sure of myself now

[Expedience]

I'm semi-ignoring you because I don't enjoy interacting with you.

I was inactive because I was studying for my exam which was today.

You are ignoring me... because you don't enjoy interacting with me?

That's funny, I thought it was because you were compromising!

Silly me!

Seriously just stop I don't even know what you're trying to say

BBT, is your read on Mathblade 100% gut or you just don't want to explain? I don't know what to think of that, I didn't like how rb kept asking "why are you scumreading them?" and you just kept repeating "its null for me not to explain" rather than actually answering. Because at this point I'm worrying that you are not actually this confbiased and just faking bravado.

I don't even trust my scumreads at this point I just gave my vote to BBT.

Horribad.

If you are worried about someone being scum you don't give them your vote. This post feels like trying to distance between BBT and Expedience.

Yes, that's the obvious implication of those two statements, I'm no longer sure if I should proxy my vote to BBT, it's right there

And I don't want to vote Dier, btw.

[Expedience]

Shit BBT is town fuck

VOTE: Unvote

I want to restate that this feels extremely town, especially coming from Mathblade who seems like an analytical person, and also the type of person who would either double down on the read (calling House / BBT both scum), or ignore it altogether as scum.

Contrast this to Chuck's "hm, I have gleaned no information from house magically knowing and crumbing another player's role, but I think I might unvote because if he is scum, we can just lynch him later". What I felt was that Chuck didn't really think BBT was a cop or that it would come to anything but couldn't justify dismissing it. It also didn't sound like someone re-evaluating and there was no frustration like with Mathblade.

[Expedience]

Expedience do you see Chuck/BBT as viable scumpair?

Yes, but no this does not mean I want to vote BBT now.

[Expedience]

I think that that's it from me tonight, but I'm promising to return with more focused reads on the remaining players within 24 hours.

Some small things that will help me with that:

@Saru

Would you like to cast a vote?

@Cass

@pitoli: he already claimed vt, didn't you read?? FoS: Pitoli

Why did this make you so suspicious of pitoli?

@Chuck

I agreed with your thought in 1364 that the "claim duel" looked unlikely from a Mafia player given that Glitch flipped Town, so I was surprised that you reconsidered in 1470. Why would Expedience do that as Mafia?

well

His ISO has felt a bit stagnant lately, but I struggle to see anything through the regalia.

Your confidence in scumread on someone who I view as unreadable makes me uncomfortable and unwilling to sheep you.

[Expedience]

Maybe it's hard mode mafia where you have to go the whole game without explaining any reads

[Expedience]

Or House is a good lynch as well imo.

house did nothing wrong

[Expedience]

CLAIM DUEL me i'm 1-0 you're scared

[Expedience]

I wonder what Chuck will do now if he thinks I'm town. That was basically his whole deal, and everything else just snipping at a post here and there.

[Expedience]

Holy hell 90 pages d2 what God have i angered.
I've read nothing and i already can tell me need purging

Sorry you replaced into an outed town slot

[Expedience]

Saru is actually my strongest townread at this point. There is no trust left in this town. It would be really funny if everyone arguing was town though.

I'm leaning towards all of rb, BBT, House and Mathblade being town. But even the fact that I am grouping them feels like a bad sign, I'm super muddled. There's like a delocalised scum orbital between you guys

[Expedience]

VOTE: Dierfire

I read from page 84 without automatically skipping long posts and it hurt =( Don't like Dierfire's push on Cass, it feels manufactured like he was looking for reasons to scumread someone rather than evaluating from all the analysis he did throughout the game. There's really nothing else though and this is a compromise, I can't read his tone or distinguish between playstyle or anything.

These are my reads since they settled:

{House, rb, Saru}
{Mathblade, BBT, SpyreX}
{pitoli, Dierfire}
{Cass}
{Chuck}

[Expedience]

He's posted a lot of walls and content, just what BBT is saying is that they don't lead anywhere.

[Expedience]

If i had some bullets id machinegun down saru, expedience and house with glee in my eyes.

Hey, explain this that's like the opposite of what I think

[Expedience]

Hey thanks bbt for the update!

Pedit: maybe tomorrow.

Your "slip" is just wrong, look at Dier's ISO yourself. He's definitely posted a lot of stuff that's difficult to parse but easy to dismiss as town.

[Expedience]

Dier is so lucid. I feel really bad about lynching him even if he's scum.

[Expedience]

Why are you voting with BBT then?

[Expedience]

Makes more sense, okay.