Mini 1679: Baccano! Mafia - Game Over

[West9]

Hi! I'm here and reading up. I'll try to get a post in later this afternoon/tonight.

[West9]

I've played a lot of games with Ari, and his tripping up over something earlygame happens a lot. That he's asking a lot of questions and actively trying to figure out why people are mad at him, and sort of backpedelling in the process, makes me think he's town. I typically view scumAri as a more collected/reserved type.

so why does the party always start when i'm asleep
i'm gonna assume we are still random voting though there seems to be something going on...

VOTE: ToastyToast
i think you're burnt

VOTE: Mainez
Why assume? Can't you read one page? I don't understand why this assumption was necessary.

you're jumping the gun. i did read before posting.
considering that the game just started and that there was a mix of random and non-random votes, i decided to place a random vote while questioning the more serious issues.

Then why include the random vote? What benefit is there in staying in RVS at that point?

I get that people are mad at Bro for being condescending, but the charge that he hasn't explained the Ari vote doesn't make sense to me. While I don't agree with his reasons, 94 and 259 are really clear and concise.

Ari's not gonna tell you this because he's not terrible, but he's a magnet for d1 votes regardless of alignment. For what it's worth the crap he's getting votes for today is horseshit.

You kept on the sidelines during a lot of the time when Ari was the center of attention. Why didn't you chime in with this context earlier?

Johnny's constant asking of other people to tell him what to think is bothering me, is this just what he usually does?

Yeah.

VOTE: Domino
Tell me why you thought that 222 was the ideal time to switch your vote over to me.

Then you misrep me later on in your post. Since you mentioned disliking my reason which was wrongly 'summarised', I've asked you to look at my reasons again so that you could see for yourself that my vote was more than what you were saying. Or you looked back and interpreted my post wrongly or you didn't look back. Hence, I kept probing you to look back. I've clarified my reasons a long time ago as seen in the quoted post above. And I even mentioned that I would repeat them if neeeded in my previous post aimed at you.

What does this have to do with NQT's request for you to clarify your reads right now?

[West9]

"reads" shouldn't be plural in that last question

[West9]

Currently I like johnny as scum, so yeah,
VOTE: johnnyFarrar.

Why?

@west, more on domino please,

I'm interested as to why you voted that way instead of ari.

I'm probably going to wait for domino to answer my questions first, actually.
For the bolded part: why is this what you're interested in?

[West9]

you're jumping the gun. i did read before posting.
considering that the game just started and that there was a mix of random and non-random votes, i decided to place a random vote while questioning the more serious issues.

Then why include the random vote? What benefit is there in staying in RVS at that point?

it was page 2, you have an issue with RVS? you look like you're just trying finding reasons to go against me

I don't have an issue with RVS, but this question isn't about whether RVS is good or not. The point of RVS is to get out of RVS, so I don't understand why you'd half-ass that transition if you already see the game getting non-random.

[West9]

Currently I like johnny as scum, so yeah,
VOTE: johnnyFarrar.

Why?

@west, more on domino please,

I'm interested as to why you voted that way instead of ari.

I'm probably going to wait for domino to answer my questions first, actually.
For the bolded part: why is this what you're interested in?

because it seems pretty stupid to not vote for someone who you think is scum and have explicitly said is scummy. Even if it is for a bad reason, your vote should go with where your reasons go, for it to go somewhere else is odd and reeks of opportunism.

Yeah, that would be stupid, but I didn't say Ari is scummy.
Also, why are you voting for Johnny? And why didn't you answer that the first time?

[West9]

prodge. currently sick and taking finals, so i might be a bit less active for the next couple of days.

[West9]

West9 could be scum because of how the slot lurked and replaced out. Kind of felt like an "I'm scum and don't want to play" type of replace out, so that's something I want to see put under pressure and squirming a bit.

Pressure votes aren't really useful once you say that they're just pressure votes.

(But seriously your vote's still on me and you haven't told anyone why or pushed it at all)

the way that you are only acting defensively and not contributing to the town in a meaningful way is why I am voting for you. Throughout the entire game there has been no meaningful content produced. Just take a look at the iso. One line posts that say nothing or next to it. I don't get good vibes. This is fake activity.

@wake, misread your post, sorry bro.

Why did you wait so long to explain your reasoning?
And am I wake?

but lol my interaction with West9 is hilarious, he's picking on me for weird reasons and i reply him cause i'm polite like that

How are they weird reasons?

Varsoon replaces in for Domino. Thank you sir!

Domino can't answer my questions now, so UNVOTE:
I'll just say that my vote on Domino was because his jump from Ari to me was terrible, as were his attempts to explain his Ari vote. This was the sequence which really bugged me.
In response to NQT asking for a clarification on the Ari read, Domino wrote:

I'll gladly explain why I voted Aris. But before I do that...

Which is instantly followed by:

Vote Hydra

Better vote right now

and then later:

I was the third vote on Aris as my reasons for voting didn't exist yet or barely when the other 2 players voted.

Two attempts to completely remove the urgency from the question. And then he gives still gives a non-answer, "This conversation is over" response:

I've asked you to look at my reasons again so that you could see for yourself that my vote was more than what you were saying. Or you looked back and interpreted my post wrongly or you didn't look back. Hence, I kept probing you to look back. I've clarified my reasons a long time ago as seen in the quoted post above. And I even mentioned that I would repeat them if neeeded in my previous post aimed at you.

It's a sloppy cover-up for a bad push and a worse jump.

I'll see where I stand on Varsoon, but for now I like johnny and am fine with this Cooldog wagon. VOTE: Cooldog

@Johnny's readlist:
I'm feeling the same sort of "I dis/agree with you and how you handled Ari-shenanigans" thing with people like Beer and Toast and Bro.

Anyone else think it's super weird that the most meaningful interaction both West and Mainez have had was with each other? I don't know why it's weird, but it is.

Clarification: here, do you mean West as in me or West as in this slot?

I don't remember thinking about these things while doing my catch-up read, so you should explain them to me:
NQT lending gravity to what he's saying
Toast both sinking into the background and standing out as a logical thinker
Mika's super-towniness
i think that's it.

[West9]

cause it looks like you're picking at me for no reason, or a bad one at least

I'm not. The way you transitioned out of RVS was weird and I didn't understand it and have been trying to ask you questions about it. I don't see how that's "picking on you."

@west: how strong is your read on cooldog? You haven't said much about him before this vote beyond the "I never called Ari scummy" bit.

Strong enough. The Johnny vote was really forced, and the three days it took to explain the vote and the "what do you mean, 'psychology professor?!'" bit that preceded it were awful.
Also, Johnny's handling of the Ari thing before I replaced in was awesome and I am 100% cool with sheeping him.

I think Bro and I may be suffering from a difference in opinions rather than him being scum.
I believe he was similar in another game we played a bit ago, but I can't remember his alignment. Will get back to you on that.
(Actually, Varsoon, would you agree? It was Drawn on Arrival. Do you remember his alignment and am I offbase with this statement?)

Random question: how many people here have played with you before?

Next he says to West that you should vote who you think is scummy not where its opportunistic, which seems at odds with his reasoning for switching off of Mainez.

I didn't even notice this discrepancy before, this a great point. Why do you like what Cooldog is saying?

Then he gets sick and busy and disappears for a bit but now he's back in force with his last post (#385), pressing a bunch of players.

For the record: I am still sick and busy, I just like making longer posts in general.

Noted. People should try their best to put votes on their own line to make sure that I see it in the future!

mmkay. sorry bout that.

[West9]

pdodge

[West9]

Guys I love you and everything and I haven't forgot you, but I'm sort of living and breathing e3 right now. Will be here to play later on in the week.

+1

[West9]

I am here and not dead. Sorry I had to be prodded. Reading up, hoping to catch up by tonight

[West9]

Johnny stole my idea, but I was gonna do this anyway.

CooLDoG wagon votesummary:

Beer

Spoiler:

CoolDog's 69 is awful - I would expect town who thinks Mainez isn't scum hunting to have more specific thoughts on why the questions Mainez *did* ask weren't legitimate; instead he just writes it off as "not scumhunting". The part re: Aris comes across really forced and like someone reaching to find an original reason to go along with the Aris scum read.

Vote: CoolDog

Mainez

Spoiler:

reads as, "I would rather not scum hunt." Vote stays.

What do you make of Main's 29/30? Have her recent posts affected your read on her?

Man, I want to vote this guy too. Every post I read just gets worse and worse. It feels like he is flailing after getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Every post is just a justification for the last post that he made... I don't know, I really want to see if my initial vote has any legs though. Will come back to this in the future.

Even if Aris *was* flailing, which I don't really see, what about this is scummy? Why wouldn't you expect a town player to justify previous posts they made when questioned about them?

these seem like pretty obvious questions that anyone was going to ask. Any given player would ask those questions, thus it does not contribute to a read either way.

@JohnnyFarrar
can you say something regarding the game, i don't really like the 4 posts you have made thus far.

part of my problem with this player can be found here. There is not even an implicit reason given for disliking certain posts AND there is an easy way out due to the very non-committal language.

seriously?
any given player would ask those questions? lol
also do i have to spell everything out for you?
it looks like you're just finding reasons to go against me and they are weak WEAK

VOTE: CooLDog

Johnny

Spoiler:

Best vote right now is Beer's vote for cool dog (even better with CD's current posting) but I want to know why they think Domino and Bro or town to make sure he's not crazy pants before hopping on that wagon

Beer's answer is alright VOTE: CoolDog

Mikazuki

Spoiler:

I usually only get angry when someone insists on claiming the same, obviously incorrect point over and over again because I find it extremely annoying.

VOTE: Cooldog

I'll wait for West to catch up, looks like the doggy is next in line then.

West

Spoiler:

I like johnny and am fine with this Cooldog wagon. VOTE: Cooldog

notquitethere

Spoiler:

The more I look at it, his low engagement jabs aren't convincing me that we should avoid Cool's wagon.

VOTE: CoolDog

Kalimar

Spoiler:

i would like cooldog to claim

i would like content from the replacements

i will hammer when the above things have happened, or if the day is still continuing at the same time tomorrow

vote: cooldog

-fin-

I'm gonna split up the analysis into a different post to clean this up a bit.

[West9]

Mainez seemingly votes for CD because of CD's reaction to Mainez's RVS vote, but the CD vote happens a long way down in that discussion, and throughout the whole thing, Mainez kept holding onto that RVS vote.

Johnny sheeped, but after saying that he wanted to make sure Beer was a good person to sheep. Later describes CD's "brand of wrong" (294) as being scummy.

NQT says that he "doesn't see" the Cooldog wagon in 403, then votes for it 9 posts later.

Kalimar previews the hammer, then hammers. Previously talked about CooLDoG in 293, 335, and 375.

Questions:
Mainez: Why wait so long on the CD vote?
Johnny: What were your reservations about joining the CD wagon at first? I had trouble following the whole "making sure Beer isn't crazy pants" thing.
NQT: What happened in between 403 and 412
Kalimar: Did somebody hit you with the "really good reasoning" you said you needed, or did you hammer just to hammer?

VOTE: NQT

[West9]

please tell me if I missed some things, especially from the time that I wasn't in the game yet. Harder to read through that stuff w/o memories of seeing it unfold.

[West9]

Mainez: Why wait so long on the CD vote?

do you mean why i waited so long to vote CooLDoG?
did i? i don't think i did.

You did though. You voted in a response to cooldog talking about the vote he made on you about the RVS thing. Why not vote for him in the responses you gave at 45, 83, or when you gave him a scumread at 188? It's not like you were doing anything with your vote at any of those times.

@Ari

- Random question: how many people here have played with you long enough to know your playstyle besides Johnny and me? A big part of the townread I have on Johnny is based on the fact that he had no reason to come to your defense in the way that he did if nobody else here knew your meta.

Ari looks great more people talk go

I went through all the trouble of putting together that votesummary and you don't even have the decency to answer my question.

Basically, I reread his ISO at that point and read more into his inconsistent reasons for voting. I posed the vote on him as a question and then he didn't get back to thread with answers before the end. If he'd put some minimal effort into explaining himself he'd probably still be alive now.

I'd say that this was fine, but you put him at L-1. That kind of hurts the whole "I was just asking him a question" reasoning.

[West9]

@west9: my vote was a hammer vote. no more or less. what is your read on me - i think it's weird you've totally ignored my suspicion on your slot. your vote analysis stuff underwhelms in a slightly scummy way - very few conclusions visibly drawn and a quite descriptive, mechanical approach.

Why do you think that's weird? Your suspicion of up until this post was "I think that Hydra was scum and I don't really care about West," which is whatever, but don't act like I'm avoiding your scumread when it gives me literally nothing to respond to. I kind of thought maybe there was something else to it, but i guess it's just that I'm "underwhelming," which I've heard wayyyyy too many times before to care anymore.

If my approach seems mechanical, it's because it sort of is. I'm trying out an approach to looking at D1 wagons that netted me 3/4 of a scumteam in a recent game. Conclusions I get from it drive the questions, and responses to those questions get new conclusions. What I have right now is that NQT and Mainez had the worst timed votes on the wagon, your vote seemed like a normal hammer but I wanted to see if I was wrong about that, and I still want Johnny to answer my question even though I'm townreading him.

As for my read on you, it's really mostly based on these last posts you've made, but if this is all there is too your West vote, then that's really lame, especially for how long and hard you've been pushing it.

my latest post before voting CooLDog was the post on my reads and after CooLDoG replied Beer, i had a stronger stance on CooLDoG being scum

Okay then, follow up: What was it about CD's answer to Beer that pushed you over the line? In your vote post, you talk about him saying that "anyone would have asked the questions" you asked, but he also said that that particular point didn't contribute to his read on you.

I'd say that this was fine, but you put him at L-1. That kind of hurts the whole "I was just asking him a question" reasoning.

It wasn't just a question though, it was pointedly a 'if-you-don't-give-me-an-answer-for-this-I'm-happy-to-lynch-you' question. He didn't give me any answer at all. No one had to hammer him before he got a chance to answer everything.

Yeah, but you said, like, 10 posts before that vote that you'd expect scumCooldog to try more if he were scum. Why was his lack of trying suddenly scummy?

[West9]

Augh what the fuck how has it been 48 hours since my last post.

Sorry about this, I'm not usually this absent-minded.

[West9]

my latest post before voting CooLDog was the post on my reads and after CooLDoG replied Beer, i had a stronger stance on CooLDoG being scum

Okay then, follow up: What was it about CD's answer to Beer that pushed you over the line? In your vote post, you talk about him saying that "anyone would have asked the questions" you asked, but he also said that that particular point didn't contribute to his read on you.

to put it simply, i felt like he was discrediting me without much reasoning.

But what was it about that specific post? Like, I wasn't asking you to put it simply.

vote: notquitethere

So I guess there really was nothing else to your West suspicion.

Still waiting for NQT to answer my question.

[West9]

I think the best way to move this game forward is if everyone, and I mean everyone, provides a simple reads-list.

There's something about this post, combined with Varsoon's recent activity being nothing more than "I don't how this game is going," that really bugs me.

Varsoon, what are your reads?

[West9]

I think the best way to move this game forward is if everyone, and I mean everyone, provides a simple reads-list.

There's something about this post, combined with Varsoon's recent activity being nothing more than "I don't

like

how this game is going," that really bugs me.

Varsoon, what are your reads?

EBWOP

[West9]

actually even if i were to not put it simply, it's still yes he was discrediting me without much reasoning. like saying what i did was useless and fake and something anyone can do. but the actual fact is i was trying and people were not picking out points that i picked.

but hold on a second, where exactly are you trying to go with asking me so much about why i voted for CooLDoG? are you reading me as scum or what? what have my answers told you?

because i'm starting to not see where you're going.

One of my pet peeves in mafia is people blatently not using their vote, and you weren't using your vote for longer than I think was reasonable. I get that this is probably some sort of playstyle difference, but I don't want to dismiss it as just that. So, you are saying there was one particular post that made you change your mind, and I want to know what it was about that post.

Putting it like Big, there.

Scum:

Kalimar
NQT
Hydrangea/West9 slot

Really? Kalimar is #1 scum? What changed from 568?

@NQT

- Why was Cooldog's lack of trying suddenly scummy?

[West9]

But if you actually read what I said back then, I didn't find Cool scummy for his lack of trying. I was questioning him over the weird rationale he'd been giving for voting:

But you being fine with CoolDog dying if he doesn't answer your question implies that you find his lack of trying to be a lynchable offense, which I assume means you find it to be scummy.

[West9]

I can hammer later today if Aristo doesn't get here.

[West9]

pdodge

[West9]

Sorry, I've been really busy for the last couple of days. I'll try to get back into the game tomorrow.
I'm Isaac Dian, Roleblocker, but I can't claim any of the failed night actions. I targeted Varsoon N1 and Mainez N2.

[West9]

First thing in going to say (because it's honestly the most important thing to me) is that I'm a survivor, so I win with whatever party that wins. Basically the way I'm playing to this win con is to hope there's a mislynch today. If that doesn't happen, I'm out now and I'll agree to do whatever the town wants me to do with my powers in exchange for letting me live.

I'm pretty sure this is bullshit. Unless you're not considered an anti-town threat?

[West9]

I just roleblocked people I had scumreads on.

I don't trust Johnny or Big (Big getting a result that they think is scum and then advocating a different lynch yesterday raises a ton of red flags).

I'm still grappling over whether or not we should kill Johnny. I think it's a good idea at some point, but I can roleblock him if we go with someone else today.

[West9]

Actually, wait, that makes more sense. Let's not lynch Johnny today, because I can just keep blocking him and preventing his kill until we decide to use him or kill him.

[West9]

I'm gonna need one hell of a good reason to not block Johnny tonight if he's still alive. I don't think he's telling the complete truth.

I've already crumbed my result on NQT yesterday -- it's clear as day that I thought he was scum.

then why didn't you stray from kalimar at all?

[West9]

Did he claim who he generously made immortal Night 1? It wasn't Beer, and it wasn't Jazzmyn, because they both started out immortal. Oh and he ate both obvtown.

He apparently got the "giving people immortality" power from killing Beer.

[West9]

No, fuck this whole "leaving Johnny alone so he can kill someone" thing. I understand that we can't afford lynching him, but I do not trust him enough to not block him.

[West9]

Also I'll just not vote today if you guys prefer. The only way I'm gonna win is if I follow everything you guys say in exchange for my life.

Also, as much as this fucking sucks, we need to figure out some sort of system of how to get Johnny to vote. Looking at the numbers and assuming 3 scum, it'll be impossible for us to lynch an unbussed scum without the fifth vote of Johnny.

[West9]

I need a little bit more time before I vote, mostly because A) I think that NQT is a good lynch but I'm afraid he might be enabling my roleblock and B) this Big lynch is starting to feel like the Kalimar lynch in terms of everyone just being okay to default on it.

[West9]

boopie doopie boop doop

sex

VOTE: Big

[West9]

boopie doopie boop doop

sex

I've had this god damn song stuck in my head for weeks and it's insanely frustrating

[West9]

gg everyone! Thanks for hosting the game, Cheet! Excellent job as always.

I spent most of this game panicking. Y'all had some scary scumreads on Hydra.

I'm fine with opening the PT. We got kinda cocky near the end, though, so sorry about that.

I think Cheet's right about you guys having great reads. it just seemed like everybody really wanted to kill Big and Kalimar. It distracted you guys a LOT. Mainez made an unnoticed scumslip during her roleclaim, and nobody seemed to pay any attention that there were two roleblocks on Toast that weren't claimed by anyone (I was really afraid that made it obvious that I was lying about not roleblocking him).

One question: what was the fakeclaim that Johnny had that he chose not to use?

[West9]

Oh! I was really impressed that Toast's Leader/Sheep/Lurker theory was 100% spot on. If he'd have revisited that on the last day and took it seriously, he'd have realised that by process of elimination I was the Leader-scum.

+1 on this. I spent most of that day trying to get out of the lurker pile.

[West9]

This might actually not be a scumslip. I could just be stupid.

i'm dallas geonard, a perma-commuter, so basically, every night, no one can do anything to me and

i can't do anything too

The idea that I had was that town commuters wouldn't be told this, because it's assumed that town normally can't do anything at night. The only reason that you would need to be told that you couldn't do anything is if you were otherwise able to do something. Like, the mafia nightkill, for instance.

[West9]

@cheery: I just feel that the fact that my power didn't even get a prime once sort of shows off the power imbalance here.

I mean, that was just because we blocked you every night that we didn't kill you.

[West9]

SO MEAN

heh heh heh.

This might actually not be a scumslip. I could just be stupid.

i'm dallas geonard, a perma-commuter, so basically, every night, no one can do anything to me and

i can't do anything too

The idea that I had was that town commuters wouldn't be told this, because it's assumed that town normally can't do anything at night. The only reason that you would need to be told that you couldn't do anything is if you were otherwise able to do something. Like, the mafia nightkill, for instance.

oh that wasn't a scumslip from my point of view though, i was like comparing to the other powers like roleblocking and stuff.

yeah, i'm probably just stupid

I mean.
West made a great point that like.. nobody figured it was weird that Toasty was getting blocked and West was a claimed roleblocker.
Lol.

It was funny, because I lied about it because I couldn't for the life of me think of a good reason that townWest would block Toast twice in a row.
Also, another thing that nobody noticed is that I said that I roleblocked Mainez during the day after Jazzmyn died and it seemed that scum didn't make a kill. I was surprised that nobody went "Hey, West probably stopped Mainez from making the kill!" which would have sucked BALLLLLLLSSSSSS

[West9]

Hey, another question: what was NQT enabling?