Mini 1717 Alfred Hitchcock UPick [GAME OVER]

[Wingback]

VOTE: Hecatia Lapislazuli

[Wingback]

Concrete Angels, Thor665, Davsto, and Farside22 are townreads.

[Wingback]

Hey Wingback! Good to see you again.

Same here.

Give me more.

Those are all the reads I have for now. Do you disagree with any of them?

[Wingback]

Thor, I'd like you to explain the Cataphant townread. That was my one hangup about you and I'd like it cleared up.

In other news:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pistachion

[Wingback]

This was a bad post. I know it's technically not game related but it's like you're trying to convey an "i don't give a fuck" attitude.

Explain to me why scum are more likely than town to post "squawk" in response to being asked not to do it.

You don't like my vote on Hecatia? If I wanted an easy bandwagon I would have put my vote on Vedith.

What's your read on Vedith?

---

Oh, so this is a playstyle clash.

What gave you this impression?

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oh. Farside? This just looks like town farside to me!

What does scum Farside look like? If you haven't seen her as scum, what would you imagine she looks like?

---

How is not explaining a soft townred (with reasons given why I'm not) from RVS a "hangup" about me?

That's not a response to my question. Deflecting my questions with one of yours is a pretty great way to ensure you don't get a response. You can ask one of your own after answering mine. To be clear, I'll rephrase: what about Cataphant's first post read town to you? If you answered and I missed it, link it for me.

[Wingback]

ETL has shown the minor towntells I'd expect from town her this early, but not enough to make that read solid.

Which of you posted this? If not Sthar8, I'm interested in hearing his read on Concrete.

[Wingback]

I'm not voting Hecatia because they said squawk, that was just something I noticed. The general tone of the interaction made it seem like Hecatia was trying to project overconfidence.

Which posts were Hecatia trying to project overconfidence? What is their scum benefit for doing it? You hopped onto the Hecatia wagon when it was in full swing. But your reasons aren't even close to what I found scummy about them in the first place. That makes me think you hopped on there because it was the cool thing happening at that time. Your justification is weak. I wouldn't characterize Hecatia's posts as "filler." They had taken solid stances at that point.

Farside you are making me suspicious. Asking for name claims and justifying it with vague "I have a reason"

Do scum blatantly rolefish in your experience?

And you didn't answer my question as to what your read on Vedith was. You claim that you would have voted him if you were scum looking for an easy wagon. That implies you think he's town to some degree and that the people voting him are scummy in some sense. Is that true? If so, who are those people? If not, why do you call the wagon easy?

[Wingback]

While I'm thinking I somewhat wonder if we should claim characters. I have a theory and I wonder if I'm out guessing the mod or not.

I'd like to do this if we are all agreed. I won't be elaborating on why though at this point.

[Wingback]

@ Davsto, What specifically did you find scummy about Pistachion's jump onto Hecatia in Post 160? You earlier had a scumread on Hecatia in Post 84 and you later vote Hecatia in Post 195 so you definitely thought Hecatia was scum at this point. Why the dislike of Pistachion's vote? And why hasn't this affected your Hecatia read at all?

[Wingback]

UNVOTE: Davsto
VOTE: Cataphant

Most likely the scum on the Vedith wagon. It's Thor if not him.

Why are you hunting for scum on the Vedith wagon specifically? Do you have a townread there?

[Wingback]

I feel behind on this game. I'll catch up and re-read the thread tonight.

[Wingback]

Surprised no one is pressuring me. I'd have gotten a few easy townreads if people had called me out for lurking.

VOTE: Farside22

[Wingback]

Not really. I'd have hoped for a hard push or vote and pressuring me into towntelling.

Scum don't want to pressure lurkers with ten days on the clock. Because that would involve arguing with me, keeping up a sustained push and potentially making me react to pressure in a way that is clearly town to everyone. Scum want lurkers to lurk until 1-2 days to deadline. So, then they can go "why not Wingback?" And people decide to ISO me at that point, think "okay, he's done nothing, let's go with that!"

Problem is, no one has even given me a second glance besides Concrete who I'm already reading as town so I'm assuming scum are among the players crafty enough to not take the easy bait.

[Wingback]

VOTE: sakura her questioning is weirdly aggressive and doesn't seem to be from a town mindset

Why was her aggression "weird?" What post was this in?

thor is questionable but I trust him b/c big scary thunder god! Also hes a good guy either alignment, and seems to be actually looking for answers!

If Thor is questionable, why do you trust him? "He's a thundergod" doesn't cut it. Where was he "actually" looking for answers? In my re-read of the first few pages, his argument with Concrete looked like arguing for the heck of it and is so inane and frivolous that I don't think he's "actually" looking for answers more than looking to post what passes for "content" on the surface.

@Cataphant: your issue with us is that we are aggresive (or at least me), which is more of a playstyle issue than anything.

Why are you more interested in assauging Cataphant's read on you as "playstyle" rather than digging into their motivation for making that read? No interest in why he found your aggression "weird" or whether he sees any scum motive there or is just making stuff up?

Null on Concrete currently but I agree with [townreads on] Thor and Dav

Here's what you said thus far about Thor:
In Post 66, you asked him what Thor's issue with Dav was implying you can't see where he's coming from.
In Post 76, you elaborate on your disagreement telling Thor that you understand Dav's suspicion of him and question Thor about Hecatia.
In Post 167, you ask Thor why he was townreading Cat on page 1 implying that you find Thor questionable and are trying to read him.

Here's what you said thus far about Concrete:
In Post 167, you quote a post of theirs and say "this was how I was feeling when I read it."
In the same Post 167, you quote another post of theirs and say "this."

So, I don't understand how Concrete is null to you and Thor is town. It seems like it should be the other way around. My thoughts now are that you are scum with Thor and want to townread him so you can make it to endgame together and you also want to be somewhat ambivalent about Concrete. However, you had let yourself be drawn into a minor argument with Thor because you wanted to distance and overwhelmingly agreed with Concrete because you wanted to buddy them as you perceived them as the de facto town leaders.

Hey not sakura. I'm looking for some unfiltered thoughts from both of you too. Not just defending but your stands so far.

This is an odd question to ask Hecatia at that point. They may have looked "scummy" to some - that's debatable but they had given stances and unfiltered thoughts. They were scumreading Davsto, townreading Thor and were leaning scum on Concrete but couldn't nail it down. I can remember their stances from memory which is more than I can say for any other player in the game. So, this question from you looks like filler. Like you thought "hey, here's a wagon on town, let me ask them mindless, nonsensical questions to look like I'm scumhunting and trying to read them."

I'm happily in agreement with hippy that Far is town, I've played scum with her and this doesn't look at all similar. Call it meta/gut.

How is her play different here?

Concrete Angels seems aggressive, but has a similar thought process to me.

The "but" implies that you found Concrete's aggression scummy but that scumminess is mitigated by their thought process being similar to yours. Why is their aggression scummy?

I think that there is 1 scum on my wagon and 1 off and I don't see you and Hecatia associated as of yet.

Why? This looks more like an easy and arbitrary number to throw around for no reason at all. If one scum is on and one is off, where's the third scum?

rn my reads are- town- fars, thor

This is a poor townlist. You are townreading my top two scumreads.

i liked fars early aggression

Where was Farside aggressive about anything?

i liked thor in general

This is a non-explanation. What posts of Thor's did you feel were town-motivated and in what different way do you think he would have approached the game if he were scum?

i feel tunnely farside = town farside.

Who has Farside tunneled on? In fact, I don't recall a single scumread she had.

• Post 21 - She policy-voted you.
  
• Post 66 - She leans town on Dav and asks Thor what his issue with Dav was?
  
• Post 76 - She tells Thor that she understands Dav's issue with Thor.
  
• Post 134 - She declares V/LA.
  
• Post 166 - Fluff about trying to catch up.
  
• Post 167 - Agrees with Concrete's reasons for scumreading you (Hecatia) but adds no reasons of her own; further questions Thor.
  
• Post 168 - Asks for your "unfiltered thoughts."
  
• Post 169 - Townreads concrete. Some other indifferent, non-committal reads on Davsto and Vedith.
  
• Post 178 - Gibberish.
  
• Post 179 - Pointless overexplanation to Thor.
  
• Post 180 - Useless clarification.
  
• Post 191 - Asks Dav for his scumreads. A surface level question that takes zero effort.
  
• Post 196 - Asks Lying Cat why they only asked for Cat's townread on Farside. Because Cat's read was suspicious, duh.
  
• Post 198 - Justifying her desire to out characters.
  
• Post 306 - Sorry, she's been busy. But no worries, she'll be around tomorrow!

A couple of issues here: 1) Nothing that Farside has done looks town. 2) She didn't even come close to tunneling. How are you townreading Farside for "tunneling?" Where did she tunnel? Are you just making shit up now?

However, I'm seeing you and Hec as more TvT trying to 1 up each other.

One up each other? I have no idea what that means in a mafia context.

Null read on Vedith, the main argument seems to be that he was posting elsewhere but ignoring questions, and the one other time I was playing with someone like that it was a townie who had joined too many games.

Give me a link to this with names.

@Wingback: I see a lot of good questions, but I'm wondering - what conclusions have you reached based on the responses you've received?

My scumreads are Farside22, Thor665, and Cataphant. My strongest townreads are you, Lying Cat, Ankamius, and Massive. Possibly Hecatia based on more recent posts, maybe Davsto, Vedith, and Pistachion. Null on The Bulge.

the scumread on us for squawking looks like overeager newbtown who has like this simplistic one-dimensional view of the game based of froggie mafia we just finished id say that fits town pistachios p well.

In what way? Even a 30 second glance at his ISO in Frog Mafia tells me there's something very different in his posts here. He seemed a lot more interested in scumhunting there but the game had also reached around 40 pages at the point he replaced in.

It doesn't fit my experience with him, where he showed a genuine curiosity about people's ideas and tried to understand them. I don't see that here.

Show me where.

I am moving Pistach to a town read. Dav remains a scum read. So does Vedith. Concrete is trying to become one, trying very hard.

Explain them all please.

having played town and scum with [Farside] before. She's more aggressive as scum and the frustration over a spelling/comprehension issue looks genuinely towny.

Show me where as scum Farside was more aggressive. The "frustration" over a spelling mistake is 100% not indicative of alignment. It's a personality rather than alignment thing.

This is scummy as HELL so back up, and talk to me, dodge again with a weak wimp reason like the above and I will happily death tunnel you till I secure your lynch.

The entire response to Farside in this post is overblown and designed to confuse people. Like, what the heck are you even arguing here?

LC's laser post was an ode to crappy play while trying to sound clever about it - and no one seems to have even bothered to read it.

How? His descriptions of you and Farside were pretty accurate. Even if you disagree about his read on you, how does nothing about his Farside read resonate to you when you have also spent a ton of time calling out Farside?

[Wingback]

I have three scumreads I'm willing to lynch today: Farside, Thor, and Cataphant - in that order.

Farside's

only solid push this game was Hecatia. She votes them out of policy in Post 21 and as the wagon develops, that RVS/policy vote magically changes into an actual scumread based off of a piggyback of Concrete's reasoning. It doesn't look like an organic change, more like a vote that Farside simply decided to sit on in order to have something to push and not go through the hassle of constantly developing fresh reads. Her read on Thor makes no sense whatsoever. She is quick to "disagree" with Thor and argue with him about Davsto who seems to be her one rock-solid townread but ultimately winds up townreading Thor - and that never changes. She spends far too much time explaining her Davsto townread to Thor instead of pursuing her scumreads which I think is her way to look busy and "interact" with Thor. The actual Davsto read is boring as hell and comes down to "he's asking Thor questions." Her Post 168 to Hecatia asking them for solid stances is trash considering Hecatia had given plenty and looks like a way to paint them as scummy and inadequate and to appear to be scumhunting and trying to read them. There is not a coherent line of scumhunting in her ISO, her posts and comments are disjointed and disengaged and she never probes at any thread of scumhunting beyond a surface level.

Thor

spends a lot of time arguing nitpicky nonsense which may just be playstyle, but his actual reads look disingenuous. His early scumread on Concrete in Post 61 was because their vote wasn't on their biggest scumread which is explained more by carelessness than scum motivation. At first, I thought it was a joke but his continued push there and accusation of hypocrisy in Post 64 looked like a serious read. Following along, Concrete's thought process was abundantly easy to understand so it looked like Thor was playing dumb on purpose. I can buy people saying nitpicking is Thor's playstyle but I don't buy that acting

deliberately obtuse

is a town playstyle. The way he talks to Farside in Post 95 looks like he's exaggerating the weakness of her post to start an argument and by Post 405, I literally have no idea what he's saying beyond meaningless blather while overstating a Farside scumread. Calling out Farside for "ducking him" in Post 485 while also taking potshots at Lying Cat despite them also calling her out looks like he's attacking Lying Cat simply because they attacked him.

Cataphant's

reads are poor, unsubstantiated, and don't make sense to me. The townreads on Farside and Thor are ridiculously weak, Farside because she's more aggressive as scum, and Thor because he's a thundergod looking for answers. The Vedith scumread is a direct sheep of Concrete. Lying Cat is scum because Lying Cat pushed Cataphant. Their evaluation of Ank in Post 499 is heavily off the mark.

[Wingback]

@ ETL, can you answer my question to you in my wall?

[Wingback]

Hi Cataphant. I left several questions for you in Post 556.

[Wingback]

@ Davsto, Pistachion, and Cataphant

:

Can you post a list of your reads?

[Wingback]

Concrete Angels - Town.
farside22 - Nulltown.
Lying Cat - Townlean.
massive - Nullscum.
Thor - Gonna lean town.
Vedith - Null..?

You had Vedith as town and Concrete as "meh" in Post 380. What changed your mind since on both?

Why are farside22 and Thor leantown? What do you make of my scumreads on them?

What's scummy about massive? Why is Lying Cat a townlean?

[Wingback]

@ Cataphant

1. Can you link the post where Sakura called you out for saying "Sqauwk?" I ISO'd her and I must have missed it.
   
2. You say Thor will give an honest answer regardless of alignment, and then you call him town. So, why is he town?
   
3. I'm not going to just "trust you" on Farside because a) you can be wrong, and b) I have you both as scum. I need an actual explanation.
   
4. Please actually respond to the points I made in my case rather than play it off as a joke.
   
5. "Unfortunately, you think I'm town?" - What does that mean? Explain the townread and why it is unfortunate.
   
6. Explain the Vedith scumread - is it purely based on ETL's lurking argument?
   
7. How are Ank and Lying Cat null after you scumread both in Post 499?
   
8. Why is massive both "leaning town" and "leaning scum" in your list?

[Wingback]

@ Hecatia, I'm not seeing the Davsto scumread. I was actually leaning more town on him after that readslist when looking at his entire ISO in context. I still wanted the specific questions answered though. Why are you retracting your townread on Vedith? He's one of my strongest townreads now.

@ Ank, I agree with the dissonance point. The main problem I have with Cataphant though is just getting them to lay out their reads coherently and it looks like they are dodging having to explain them and I can't follow their thought progressions through their ISO at all.

[Wingback]

1) Approximately 200 posts.
2) farside22, while struggling to post extensively due to IRL issues, made some very good points in what she said.

1) I realize that. My question was what in those 200 posts made you change your mind?
2) What specific points of Farside's did you think were town-motivated?

[Wingback]

I disagree with #2 but I can see town thinking that way. I'll rephrase #1:

You had Vedith as town for decent reasoning (the lynchbait discussion). What about his posts put him back at null?

[Wingback]

@ Hecatia, I'd like a response to my posts to you in Post 556. Why haven't you commented yet?

[Wingback]

@ Davsto, Pistachion, and Cataphant

:

Can you post a list of your reads?

Town--Concrete Angels, Lying Cat, Wingback, Thor
Scum--Davesto, Hecatia, farside

Can you post explanations for your reads? And I'd like thoughts on all players, not just a few. Arrange them in an order from town to scum if you will.

[Wingback]

Hmm... Actually you have a point and i don't really remember, i haven't been paying as much attention to this game as i'd like to however.

Okay. Can you re-read and explain where you thought Farside was tunneling and what gave you that impression at the time? I don't mind if you changed your stance since or you misinterpreted something. I want to make sure your actual read was genuine.

Ank & Wingback -- let's work together on this? Can we agree a lynch target between the three of us?

Sure. I'm not confident in who I want to lynch just yet though because of two empty slots in the game. I assume I'll have a better idea once they are filled and contributing. What are your reads?

---

@ Lying Cat/Thor

, is this back and forth helpful? Because I just got to the point where I've started to glaze over your argument. I suggest stepping back and letting others catch up and not cause them to get apathetic by the overposting. I especially want Pistachion, Davsto, Massive, and Cataphant to post a whole lot more.

[Wingback]

Sorryyy i confused myself D:
notty was townreading far as he told me and for some reason i thought she was tunneling because i remembered tunnely farside = town farside from notty's reasoning for disliking the slot back in Saki achiga (which turned scum).
~Sakura

I'm not following. She was scum in Saki achiga and notty scumread her for tunneling? Or for lack of tunneling?

[Wingback]

VOTE: Davsto

[Wingback]

1. Your reads are completely static. You have the same scumread (Hecatia) all the way from RVS. Nothing changed. You are not trying to refine that read. You have the same leaning scumread (Pistachion) all the way from Pistachion's hop onto the Hecatia wagon. You haven't done anything about that.

2. You are coasting. You show up from time to time with nothing to say. You take easy positions - like dismissing Thor vs Lying Cat as TvT.

3. ??? Mystery reason. Brownie points for anyone who can figure this out before I reveal it. I'll give a hint though. It has to do with your Post 160 and Post 303.

[Wingback]

Davsto

, 1) I don't expect that town will always change their reads because sometimes people have strong reads and confbias themselves into being stubborn and not changing their mind. But that is typically accompanied by a hard push for their target's lynch. You haven't been pushing Hecatia, attacking their posts or making noises for their lynch. The Hecatia wagon is dead. But you are content to simply show up (very infrequently) and re-iterate that you are scumreading them. The fact that they are pushing back on you also makes your read pretty convenient. That looks more like scum who don't want to change the "reads" that they have settled into rather than either a) stubborn town knee-deep in confbias, or b) town that are re-assesing and refining their reads based on new evidence. 2) Your Post 160 clearly implies that you thought Pistachion was hopping on a town wagon. Why would a scum wagon be "easy?"

[Wingback]

Your latest posts were non-committal and stand-offish which made me think that you were a townread I was wrong on. So I went through the game again with specifically your posts in mind. And then I found this little gem:

VOTE: Hecatia

Most of her posts at first are filler that makes them seem like they're trying to do something, like 78.

Like there are a lot of posts but nothing good until 2/3 into the iso.

Sheeps votes on Vedith.

Not liking this.

Hopping on an easier bandwagon with little reasoning.

This is a very clear implication that you thought Hecatia was a town wagon that Pistachion was jumping on. When I pointed out later that you were scumreading Hecatia both before and after this post, you responded to me by saying that you thought Pistachion was bussing which is bullshit because if you thought she was bussing, you'd say "scum bussing" or "this is a bus vote," not "hopping on an easy wagon." The bussing explanation is something you concocted after the fact when I pointed out that you were scumreading Hecatia and so your post doesn't make sense. If you thought there was a good chance Pistachion was jumping on a town wagon, that would have affected your read on Hecatia. But your read remained unchanged. Also, if you think Pistachion is hopping on an "easy wagon" that could be either town or scum, why would you go after Hecatia rather than Pistachion? That logic doesn't work out either.

[Wingback]

Town to scum:
Lying Cat--The interaction with Thor seems TVT, both seem like they have differing opinions but they're trying to maximize information and see where the other is coming from.
Thor--Town, same reasoning as lying cat.
Wingback--Has been pretty good about getting information and pushing most people
Concrete Angels--Shares thoughts freely, questions people, towny. But not as thorough as the 3 above him.
massive--The few posts he has are pretty good
Cataphant--Nothing that screams scum, but not a lot of justification for actions.
Vedith--Most of the posts at the beginning were defensive, but now is starting to take a stand
Ankamius--Seems a little sloppier than the game I played with him where he was town, but granted that's a meta read so I'm holding off to have an opinion on him
The bulge--Where are you????? Why hasn't he been prodded, he hasn't posted in over a week.
Hecatia--Filler and sheepy votes
Farside--I thought the slot was scummy because there was a whole lot of nothing but I'll wait and see what I think of the replacement
Davsto--Seems to be avoiding taking a stance on the game at all.

1. Where did Lying Cat and Thor "maximize information" and "see where the other is coming from?" Can you quote the relevant posts and bold the sections where you think they did this and explain why you think it is town?
2. What about Massive's posts did you like? Can you link or quote those specific posts and explain what you liked about them?
3. The Cataphant read seems like a cop-out. Elaborate on it.
4. Why are you "holding off" on Ankamius because it is a meta read? Do you not trust meta-reads? If not, why is your Farside read based solely on meta but you are not "holding off" on it?
5. What do you think of Hecatia and Davsto pushing each other? You are scumreading both of them so does it affect your reads that two of your scumreads are scumreading each other?

[Wingback]

-Null read on Vedith, the main argument seems to be that he was posting elsewhere but ignoring questions, and the one other time I was playing with someone like that it was a townie who had joined too many games.

Post a link to this please.

[Wingback]

Because it was a tiny little niggle as opposed to the reams of problems coming from your slot.

"Reams of problems?" Here's what you listed so far:

Post 38: "

Meh. Maybe Sakura's I don't like that much, but I've never been one to read RVS well.

" - You seem to have no confidence in your read here.
Post 84: You didn't like that Sakura started a sentence with "although."

And then:
Post 160: This is the post in question where you call out Pistachion for "hopping on an easy bandwagon" and neglected to switch your vote.

So what are these "reams" of problems? That she started a sentence with "although?"

[Wingback]

The whole business with their awful, selective meta reads on me? Their convenient vote on Ankamius? Those are two quite key ones.

And both of these happened much, much after the point where you called out Pistachion. You called out Pistachion in Post 160. Hecatia voted Ank in Post 514. They used meta reads in Post 622 and Post 625. Do you have a time machine?

[Wingback]

UNVOTE:
I buy that claim and the manner of revealing/justification etc. If he's scum, that'll be more apparent later on.

VOTE: Pistachi0n

[Wingback]

I'm townreading Ank.

[Wingback]

Post 687 rubs me the wrong way. It is too much of a surface-level reads list. Thor and Lying Cat are TvT? That's an easy read with no substance. Concrete "shares thoughts freely?" That's playstyle. "Cataphant - not a lot of justifications for actions?" Why isn't Pistachion making them justify those actions then and see what she can get? Why use meta for Farside but not for Ank? Hecatia read is based on "filler and sheepy votes?" They've posted a whole lot of content and I don't think it is an accurate representation of the sum of the content they've posted.

[Wingback]

I don't think they successfully saw where the other was coming from, I think that was their intention in pushing each other and asking each other questions. And the interaction itself gave us information about them. I'm talking about 656 and 658.

Except you started townreading both of them in Post 650 before either of these posts were made.

If you had other reasons for townreading Thor and Lying Cat, why didn't you state them in your reads list in Post 687?

No I don't trust meta reads, my farside read wasn't based solely on meta, but I am holding off on it because it's a replacement slot and I haven't seen the replacement yet (unless they came in after you made this post asking me questions, which I will see when I catch up after I answer your questions)

What was your non-meta reason for scumreading Farside?

im gone until tuesday mostly other trunk shoud still be around

Answer my questions in Post 611 please.

[Wingback]

Welcome Nachomamma8! Please catch up quickly and offer your thoughts on people other than the mod.

Farside22, welcome back! Please address my case(s) against you. For a quick lookup, just ISO me and Ctrl+F Farside and address whatever I've written there.

[Wingback]

Hi Nachomamma8. I like your catch up for the most part and the angles you've taken but there are a few outstanding questions I'd like cleared up:

1. Explain your read on Thor with detailed reasoning. I agree that Thor's Ank read isn't the best. What ultimately caused you to read him as town? My problems with Thor come from his early posts where it looked like he was getting into a pointless argument with Concrete despite everything Concrete had posted making perfect sense. I also didn't like how he engaged Farside and Lying Cat focusing mostly on making them look silly.

2. I completely disagree with your concerns about Lying Cat. Often when someone is being overly defensive, it can be a useful tool to back off and see how they pro-actively scumhunt when they have nothing to defend against. It looked to me like Lying Cat was using that technique with Sakura.

3. Talk about why you are reading Pistachion as town with as much depth and detail as you can. There was one thing town I noticed about Pistachion and that was how she was reading Farside. Everything else looked vague and non-committal. I've also listed out my issues with her in Post 693, Post 732, and Post 751. Why are Hecatia's weak reads such a problem for you while Pistachion's equally weak reads are okay?

4. Reads on every other player in the game will be appreciated.

[Wingback]

The places I'm currently willing to vote are massive/Cataphant/Vedith; not really willing to vote anywhere else. If there are people who have feelings about one of these in particular, tell me now and lend me your sword. Otherwise, I will choose which one to push when I return and have time to drive a wagon.

You really shouldn't be voting Vedith. I'd explain why but I want to see if you can figure this out yourself after reading his ISO closely. I'll give you a hint: it has nothing to do with PRs so no need to waste time to see if he's crumbing. It's based on something in his mindset that scum just don't have.

[Wingback]

I don't like being ignored.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

[Wingback]

I don't like being ignored.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Finding a better place for my vote is a stronger priority than explaining town reads in details at the moment.
Do you have comments on the other two names I've given?

Massive is a player I was weakly townreading mostly based on his early posting where he mentioned that he was following along with Concrete's train of thought. I felt a similar way upon reading the early pages and I could see town following the game that way. I'm not sure scum would see things similarly. Since then, massive has been rather underwhelming and I'd have hoped to see his reads being fleshed out in depth but nothing really happened.

I've been slightly scumreading Cataphant. The issues I have with them are outlined in my ISO.

Regardless, I'm not going to restrict my lynch choices to just the three you have listed. If you want to truly collaborate on your reads, you'll respond to my questions and flesh them out. I like your entrance and I liked your depth of posting but I'm not the kind of player who's going to let someone else arbitrarily choose three people and lynch only out of those three. If you want my support, flesh out all of your reads.

[Wingback]

Farside

, why were you reading Thor as town in your Post 168? You list a bunch of problems you have with his early posts in your Post 771 but all of these incidents happened before you originally called him town.

Lying Cat

,

Massive

and

Thor

, can you post a list of your reads please? I'd also like both (Lying Cat, Thor) of your thoughts on Farside's catch up posts.

Pistachi0n

, please address my Post 751.

---

You know what, fuck it, come
lynch me i don't care anymore,

it'll be fun to see your face

for mislynching Town Sakura, when you've never done that mistake before.

This reads like you are townreading Nacho. But you aren't based on your other posts. Explain.

@Lying Cat: Your argument that farside agreed with ETL twice and thus should be town reading ETL is a weak one.

I've made this same argument. Why didn't you ask me about it?

PEdit: How about Concrete's case on Pistach which I literally mentioned in that goddamn post?

As far as I know, I'm the only one who's made a "case" on Pistachi0n. What is this "case" you are talking about? Quote it.

That comes from my belief that players tend to scumread people who scumread them.

I view this as weak, juvenile play. If a player is unable to see town motivation in attacks on them, they have a long way to go to improve as a player.

It seems like most people in this thread are townreading Vedith based on his attack on Ank.

Not me. There's something else besides his attack on Ank that is a ridiculously strong towntell.

---

Despite wanting elaboration on his thought processes, I'm reading Nacho as town. The pool of non-townreads I want more content from are: Pistachi0n, Massive, Lying Cat, Thor, and Cataphant. I'm going to go with Massive just because how absurdly underwhelmed I'm getting based on the lack of content. Pistachi0n is at least being batshit crazy by continuing to insist that Davsto is scum.

VOTE: Massive

[Wingback]

I'll explain the flip on my Lying Cat read briefly. Partly, it has to do with the two claims (Hecatia, Davsto) as well as two other slots looking a lot more town than Lying Cat which pushed them down my townlist. Secondly, their posting has been too focused on Thor. Thor is happily indulging them which just seems to be his playstyle. But someone who knows Thor and is at least decent as scum and can hold their own in an argument could easily use Thor as a distraction to develop increasingly inane arguments until the entire interaction is buried under a pile of muck no one wants to read. You gave a few reads besides Thor earlier but didn't develop them much at all. What are your reads now? Talk about how you seeing the (non-Thor) playerlist as a whole.

[Wingback]

@ Nachomamma8

@Lying Cat: Your argument that farside agreed with ETL twice and thus should be town reading ETL is a weak one.

I've made this same argument. Why didn't you ask me about it?

[Wingback]

A few more follow-up questions for Lying Cat:

The reason you aren't scum with far is the same reason she might be scum.

What would this reason be and why does it mean that Concrete can't be scum with Farside?

As far as reads, you're slightly town, but you need to be more town. Far and cat are both possible scum for different, possibly mutually exclusive (although I'll think more on that) reasons.

I can maybe see where you are coming from here since Cataphant's defense of Farside doesn't look like scum defending their partner. Do you have more fleshed out reasons for this?

I also don't think I fully understand your basis for Post 457. You say things like:

Next on the list is ETAngels.

Of course, that brings us to Sakura.

Which leaves us to the other course: Thor.

This gives me the impression that there's some sort of "list" you are working with that you aren't fully disclosing. For instance, why are Farside, Cataphant, Concrete, Hecatia, and Thor the only ones you are talking about? What happened to the rest of the playerlist? The time has come to unravel what was behind the scenes.

And I'm beating him over the head with inane and stupid bullshit to get him to the point where he lashes out.

And you are doing this why exactly? Has there been a time in the past where Thor lashed out at you and you ended successfully ended up reading him as town? If so, link me to that game.

You've non-RVS voted in this game twice. In Post 132, you voted Thor. In Post 551, you voted Thor (again). That's it. Why are you so obsessed with Thor?

[Wingback]

Alternatively, I could see Lying Cat and Thor as scum together fabricating this argument. Both seem the type to be capable of orchestrating a natural-looking interaction as scum.

[Wingback]

Scum - Ankamius, Lying Cat
Town - Vedith, Wingback, Hecatia Lapislazuli, massive, pistachi0n
Null - Nachomamma8, Davsto, farside22, Cataphant, Concrete Angels

Why Pistach town? The only mention I saw in your ISO was in Post 369. His posts before that didn't strike me as alignment indicative. They were mostly discussion about what he considers lynchbait.

Why Massive town? Your first mention of this was in Post 287 where you quoted a post by massive. But most of his argument against Hecatia was based off of Concrete's push so it wasn't original. If Massive was town for it, why not Concrete? Shouldn't they be more town since they originally presented the argument you are townreading him for?

Sure - but that doesn't change the point, nor change how often this happens, so I'm not sure what issue you're challenging.
I also think any lurking at all is juvenile and insulting and shows massive rudeness and should be one of the first things any player fixes int heir game - doesn't mean people don't do it, nor that it's something you cannot get alignment reads off of.

My point is that he may be a better player than you're giving him credit for. Your argument only works IF he as town is juvenile enough to be unable to see pushes on him as town.

[Wingback]

ETL, based on your experience with Lying Cat, is it normal for them to solely focus on one player? What's your read on them now?

[Wingback]

You're both town, obviously.

Did this make anyone else's skin crawl a little?

Post a list of your reads in order with explanations please.

[Wingback]

You're both town, obviously.

Did this make anyone else's skin crawl a little?

Post a list of your reads in order with explanations please.

Are you doing anything with this or just making noises?

I think I've been pretty clear about my scumhunting for a while now. I've asked plenty of people to post lists of reads, critiqued them and attempted to read them off of what they post.

My current townreads are you, Nacho, Hecatia, Davsto, Vedith, Ank, and now Thor. I've been going back and forth on Farside.

I've been reading the game again looking for potential interactive tells between the others. Pistachi0n, Lying Cat, and Farside make decent sense as a scumteam. I also find Massive and Cataphant scummy on their own. Right now, my goal is to probe those five enough so I can solidify my reads there.

[Wingback]

Except you started townreading both of them in Post 650 before either of these posts were made.

If you had other reasons for townreading Thor and Lying Cat, why didn't you state them in your reads list in Post 687?

Because their interaction was recent and therefore at the front of my mind when I made 687.

What was your non-meta reason for scumreading Farside?

I explained in 908. I'm townreading farside more after her catchup.

Why were you townreading them in Post 650?

[Wingback]

Because they have consistently been picking apart the game and trying to get information out of people.

Where was Lying Cat doing this? Can you quote it?

[Wingback]

What would this reason be and why does it mean that Concrete can't be scum with Farside?

Already been answered.

Where? Quote it.

That would be a playstyle thing. Entering into any game, I have a list. That list is based off of one of two things based on my alignment: My ability to read the player/expectations of their usefulness OR the player's ability to read me/ability to lynch them later. ETL and Thor are basically the top of both lists for this playerlist, thus a first priority to figure out. Farside is slightly lower. Hecatia's presence in my "I actually give a shit about these players" pile comes from her early presence as a wagon. Cataphant popped up via interactions I noted as fishy above.

I don't think I understand what the lists are. List 1 is your ability to read the player/usefulness? That's not the same thing so how is that on the same list? List 2 is player's ability to read you/your ability to lynch them? They're not the same thing either. Clarify these things.

See above: Thor is high priority. If possible, I want a townread or hard scumread on him today. His normal play is largely alignment neutral, so the attempt to get him to play a more proactive and emotional game is an attempt to shake him up and make him more readable. Not out of some prior success, but an attempt to try something new.

If his play looks alignment-neutral to you, why wouldn't you prioritize reading players whose play

doesn't

look alignment-neutral from you POV? Normally when someone has a lot of null posts, I try to read others who don't, first.

Hecatia Lapislazuli- mild town by situation. Town by claim.
Davsto- Town by claim.
Vedith- town by situation.
Nachomamma8- Town. Minor paranoia, because I default to town with him, but not worth readdressing yet.
Concrete Angels- mild town, not a pressing concern do to personal reasons.
Ankamius- mild town.
pistachi0n- null. I need to sit down and address that, though.
massive- Null. Also, likely to get ignored by me for a long time.
farside22- mild scum, but unaddressable until she gets her head in the game.
Wingback- mild scum. Sitting back and taking a manipulative stance. [p]453[/p] pings hard. Not making waves. Still useful enough that I don't want to lynch D1.
Thor665- Minor scum.
Cataphant- Scum. mostly gut, tbh, with the exception of things I've already addressed.

(Re-arranged so I can keep them in perspective)

Why are all your behavioral townreads besides Vedith "mild?" And all of your scumreads besides Cataphant are "mild" or "minor." Why no strong reads at all? Is this normal for you?

What of Vedith's "situation" do you read as town?

Why are you "defaulting" to town on Nacho?

[Wingback]

Feeling a whole lot more confident in Pistachi0n + Lying Cat as scum. The last one is within Massive, Cataphant, or Farside.

VOTE: Pistachi0n

[Wingback]

Will make reading through Wingback's reasons for voting her more closely a priority.

On this point: first off, I'll say that Lying Cat is a stronger scumread for me now. If I thought we could lynch them today, I'd push it but there are two problems: Firstly, I'd expect players who have played with Lying Cat before (you, Concrete) to resist the lynch because I've noticed people being notoriously reluctant to lynch within their in-group on D1. Secondly, players with very little experience tend to townread players that post "content" without thoroughly analyzing what that content actually is. I was hoping more people that I think are town and have clearly played with Lying Cat before (you, Thor, Concrete) flesh your reads out on them. I've listed out my issues with Lying Cat in my past few posts. I also think their scumread on me for "not making waves" is pretty disingenuous and calling my post when I was lurking "manipulative" is paper-thin considering the vast majority of content I've posted came since that post.

Onto Pistachi0n. My five major issues come down to these:

1. Calling out Thor and Lying Cat as TvT. Scum
   love
   dismissing wall wars as TvT without analyzing the actual arguments in-depth because it gives them a lazy out. This is even more so the case when one of their partners is involved in that fight. Pistachi0n is unable to corroborate why she's doing this beyond vague assertions that they are trying to read each other and her timeline is all messed up.
   
2. The jump onto Hecatia which you've quoted in your previous post. Her reasoning is horrible and it makes more sense as scum hopping onto an easy wagon than town legitimately finding Hecatia scummy for the reasoning she gave.
   
3. Your point about her pushing the claimed PRs holds less water when you consider that she was already getting townread for being "batshit crazy." Surely scum would continue doing that as it allows them a distraction to post content and they get no blowback since people are townreading them anyways. I don't think town would attack the PRs because anyone with a brain can tell that Hecatia and Davsto are town.
   
4. Her readslist in Post 687 is weak as hell. I talk about my problems with it in my Post 693 and Post 732.
   
5. Her pushes on Davsto and Hecatia are both on relatively "easy" targets. She never once pushes anyone that could be perceived as a "strong" player argumentation-wise. The exception is Farside and her insistence that Farside is "dodgy and less strong than usual" is the one and only town thing I've seen from her. Although if Farside is scum, this isn't a towntell.

I'm not sure who fits better into the third scum slot. Massive and Cataphant need to post more content and Farside needs to catch up and engage with the game.

[Wingback]

VOTE: Lying Cat

Yeah, let's do this.

[Wingback]

This is totally not a scum driven speedwagon at all. Nope...

Nope. Who's the scum in your mind? Thor?

Both me and Thor had scumreads on Lying Cat for a while now and the reasoning is there for all to see. Davsto is quite clearly town for his claim so who cares if he's wagoning without reasoning. If Nacho decides to compromise on Lying Cat, I'd call it probably the single most town-driven wagon that formed in this game so far.

Why are you against it?

[Wingback]

That doesn't alleviate my scum read given two other roles have already outed. I want the claim.

I also suspect you are using the word "conftown" rather liberally.

[Wingback]

I was considering whether or not to claim but I suspect the LC votes might trail off and I don't have time to check in tonight.

I will partially claim.

I am not a VT.

With my role, Hecatia's, and Davsto's, it is very unlikely LC has some sort of "confirmable" role. Their behavior points heavily to scum. I don't buy their soft-claim. They better get lynched today.

[Wingback]

I'm not an expert on Antihero games but I expect mafia games in general to be balanced. I don't buy that the two roles outed, my role, and another confirmable role all exist in the game.

You are making me very suspicious with this last minute defense on Lying Cat.

Explain how you got to me as town please. Do you normally accuse your townreads of "making noises?"

[Wingback]

I will partially claim.

I am not a VT.

Is this even slightly a surprise, supposed to be one, etc? It's a UPick game, of course you're not gonna be a VT.

Did Antihero state that it was role madness?

[Wingback]

I won't be supporting a Pistachi0n lynch today.

Before anyone decides to hop off of the Lying Cat wagon, considers the circumstances here: Lying Cat gets wagoned to L-2, they soft-claim some vague role. Then Cataphant votes them. Then they soft-claim again. Then Cataphant unvotes and votes Pistachi0n for no reason at all. It looks like last minute bussing and playing with momentun to direct it in Lying Cat's favor. Town moves in packs. And a vote + unvote is more likely to get other town to unvote than not voting at all. Nothing actually happened. Lying Cat didn't claim anything.

If they full claim every aspect of their role, I may be willing to switch, but there is not a snowball's chance in hell I'm unvoting and voting a different wagon just because they gave vague hints as to their role.

If Lying Cat claims, I'm switching to Cataphant, not Pistachi0n. I've been observing Hiplop over the last few days. He's had plenty of time to be on the site but his catchup is underwhelming and his vote + unvote looks like a last minute bus and then making it seem like Lying Cat's soft-claim has credence.

[Wingback]

But I'm preferring Lying Cat. Last-minute wagon changes worry me.

I prefer Lying Cat because they're scum, not because lollastminutechanges.

[Wingback]

I fully retract my townread on ETL. By the way, why is Metal Sonic not playing the game? He was pretty involved and engaged in Bojack Horseman.

My guess for the scumteam is Lying Cat, Cataphant, and Concrete Angels.

[Wingback]

Real life decided to make Jingle spend his entire time in the game obsessing over Thor and getting into an unproductive wall war?

Like, it is reasonable to excuse lurkers you know with real life but no one's even claiming that Jingle not being here is scummy. It is that WHEN he is here, he pursued agendas that benefited scum.

[Wingback]

Fair point.

pistachi0n's good too, honestly, both have a good chance of flipping scum. Let's go and hope that nothing horrible happens.

VOTE: pistachi0n
PEdit jesus, we have ten hours, we need to decide on a goddamn lynch for today.

Pistachi0n seems lost and his response to the Lying Cat wagon didn't seem to betray that he knows it's his partner. There was no move for towncred or defense of the wagon or anything of that sort. You should get back on Lying Cat. I'm about 95% positive they're scum.

[Wingback]

UNVOTE: Ank
VOTE: pistachi0n

Yup, I can get behind this. The opinion over Dav and how easy he unvoted said it all to me.

Switch to Lying Cat please. They're scum.

[Wingback]

The answer is in my ISO. Read it.

[Wingback]

Switch to Lying Cat please. They're scum.

Why lynch LC if they can prove to be town over night?
If LC is scum, it doesn't make me think any less of my scum reads and hitting another scum today can give us 2 tomorrow.

They never said they can prove to be town overnight.

They said that if the scum that isn't a ninja gets lynched, that will confirm them as town. Except they could be that scum. They need a specific scum player to flip. Read their actual posts carefully.

ETL, I'm not ignoring your posts. Will get to it in a bit.

[Wingback]

@ Vedith

, this is required reading.

I'm claiming that

at some point in the game

I will be confirmed town.

I, uh... Let's see here. There are two known quantities here. Scum have a ninja and a backup ninja.

Whenever the third member of their team flips, I will be confirmed town

by virtue of the fact that my role is confirmable.

Lying Cat did not - as you say - claim that they can be confirmed overnight. They said that ETL will know that they used their role on her overnight but their "confirmation" only works if one specific member of the scumteam flips and they could easily be that member.

This is a scare tactic to drive the wagon off of them and stall the lynch.

[Wingback]

wat that's not what he said. he said he would target me and I'd be able to confirm it. at least that was my understanding of it.

His role, not his alignment.

Role confirmation =/= alignment confirmation. You are experienced enough to know that.

[Wingback]

VOTE: Pistachi0n

Sorry, Wingback, I will not support a Lying Cat lynch today.

You haven't said anything about either Lying Cat or Pistachi0n recently. What tipped the scales?

[Wingback]

Just based on setup stuff, we should lynch Lying Cat earliest on day three. If we can't conclusively prove that he's town by that time, then I will fully support lynching Lying Cat.

Why are you being so charitable with them?

[Wingback]

Lying Cat haven't locked themselves into any sort of role. They made a vague claim that they are confirmable. I don't understand why you just decided to give them two more days to do that without asking for any further information and are willing to lynch another player that you've said nothing about for many pages. It is not even that you are lynching a different scumread, you are lynching someone you literally have given no opinions on over someone else who you've also given no opinions on because they said they could confirm themselves under a very specific set of circumstances?

I don't follow where you got this D3 idea from. They never said they can confirm themselves by D3. They said that if one SPECIFIC scum role flips, they would be able to confirm themselves. That doesn't do anything for me since that role may never flip and if we get to LYLO, Lying Cat can still plausibly argue that because that role hasn't flipped yet, they can't confirm themselves as town. That won't make them confirmed scum at this point so I see this claim as completely safe and without consequences.

He could "confirm" his role whatever it is by visiting people other than his two partners. Role confirmation isn't confirmation of his alignment and I thought you were experienced enough to know this as well.

[Wingback]

Fair point.

pistachi0n's good too, honestly, both have a good chance of flipping scum. Let's go and hope that nothing horrible happens.

VOTE: pistachi0n
PEdit jesus, we have ten hours, we need to decide on a goddamn lynch for today.

Davsto.

Get back on Lying Cat.

[Wingback]

Reasons:

1. The bulk of his posting was designed to irritate Thor to apparently get him to "lash out" which Jingle claims will help him read Thor. They've had a prolonged wall war and so far... nothing. They never tried to scumhunt or read anyone besides Thor beyond a single post early in the game. They've spent all their apparently limited time nitpicking Thor's walls.
   
2. Jingle's read on me based on a single post when I was lurking is skin-deep and ignores the bulk of the content I've posted since then.
   
3. None of their reads in Post 985 are strong or developed. If they were town, they'd be working on scumhunting and refining those reads instead of arguing pointlessly with Thor. Their only strong reads are based on the claims which is a total cop out.
   
4. They's made no attempt to read ETL who they claim is a priority read for them. They've had her as leaning town and that's about it. If they were town, they'd be using some of their time questioning and working with ETL instead of the wall war with Thor.
   
5. Their "confirmable role" claim is not a lock in. They can go all the way to LYLO and still have a good reason why they aren't confirmed town. Their vagueness is to try and misdirect the town into believing they are confirmable.

[Wingback]

@ ETL

,

1. It is apparent that they aren't scumhunting because if they were, they would have asked questions, voted people, accused them and so on to refine their weak reads on all the players.
2. I know they haven't tried to read anyone besides Thor because I have read their ISO. I suggest you do the same.
3. I think their read on me is fake. That's not irrelevant. That's how scumhunting works. If you think someone is faking their reads, you deduce that they are scum. How is the validity of their reads "irrelevant?"
4. Where have they developed reads? What reads have they developed? Telling me "you don't know they haven't developed reads" is rubbish because you are assuming that they have reads and asking me to prove they don't instead of starting from a blank slate and reading their ISO to see what reads they've developed.
5. Telling me I have "pre-determined criteria" is like asking me not to scumhunt. Based on our experiences, we develop ideas of what town behavior looks like and what scum behavior looks like. Arguing that someone doesn't look like town is basically how mafia is played.

[Wingback]

Here are some of the reasons

Lying Cat's obsession with Thor to the detriment of everything else

helped advance the scum wincon:

1. It gives them free content to argue about. Thor argues every point directed at him so the back and forth looks like they are generating content. Lying Cat knows that no one will bother to read the exact details of the argument or understand them so anything goes.
   1. This advances the scum wincon by creating apathy among the town making them less likely to want to catch up and contribute to the discussion.
   2. Town are unlikely to do this because they have other priorities like reading the rest of the playerlist.
   
   
2. Developing and refining reads on a large portion of the playerlist and changing and adapting them as the game goes on is challenging for scum to do because not only do they want to avoid stepping on too many people's toes, they need to make their changes appear natural. Getting into a dumb tunnel with Thor gives them an excuse to avoid these challenges.
   1. This advances the scum wincon because by not stepping on people's toes, they can be seen in a more favorable light, allowing them to better manipulate town players.
   2. Town are unlikely to do this because town's wincon is to find scum and solely focusing on a single player may let scum slide by not to mention that if Thor is town, all of the scum are safe from a hypothetical town-Lying Cat's scrutiny which makes a town loss more likely.
   
   
3. They never voted a single other player in the game for a period of nearly twenty days insulting them from VCA and accountability for pushing wagons. If they vote, they need to back that up. They need to push players, keep up the charade of scumhunting and so on. But they dodge it altogether.
   1. This advances the scum wincon by making it more difficult to scumhunt in later days and leaves a lot of ambiguity among the town.
   2. Town are unlikely to avoid voting other players because votes create pressure and allow a basis to interact and read other players which is paramount to helping town win chances.
   
   
4. They know that Thor is unlikely to get lynched purely on the basis of their argument. So, after they switch to a lynch at deadline, they can simply resume tunneling Thor the following day claiming that they haven't yet gotten the reaction they wanted.
   1. This advances the scum wincon by allowing Lying Cat to keep their hands clean and their credibility intact because they weren't the ones who pushed hardest for a mislynch.
   2. Town are unlikely to do this because town try to lynch who they believe is scum and want to have a say in the lynches so that their scum suspects are lynched.
   
   
5. Attempting to make Thor play emotionally means that Thor's arguments will be easier to discredit and taken less seriously by the rest of the town which also helps Lying Cat.
   1. This advances the scum wincon because town need credibility in order to push a lynch. If a town player is being dismissed as emotional and lacks credibility, they will lack the capability to convince the other town to lynch their scumreads.
   2. Town are unlikely to undermine the credibility of other players because their focus is not primarily on their survival but on finding and lynching scum.

[Wingback]

That should read "insulating" them from VCA, not insulting.

[Wingback]

Is this the part where I state intent to hammer?

Yeah, hammer. Intent was given. They declined. Tough luck.

I'm also very confident they aren't flipping anything but scum.

[Wingback]

Regardless of what they flip, Concrete is a player I need to re-read from scratch to make sure I'm not missing anything.

ETL's play looked a lot better than the game where we were scumpartners but there are times when it didn't make sense.

[Wingback]

But it is true. A lot of your arguments stretch the bounds the credibility to the point where if they flip town, I'd sooner believe you are whiteknighting them than that you were right.

Most of your arguments come down to "how do you know they aren't scumhunting and developing reads?" and "why are you reading them based on your preconceived ideas?" I'm not going to assume that they are scumhunting when their ISO doesn't show it. I also don't really understand your scumread on Pistachi0n beyond a certain inquisitiveness Pistachi0n apparently showed in a different game where she was town. Why did you never develop that read more? Pistachi0n has posted plenty more content since then.

[Wingback]

I explained in a lot of detail what they did to warrant my scumread. Your questioning was along the lines of "how do you know they aren't scumhunting" which doesn't make any sense because you are starting from a point where you are assuming that they are scumhunting, not from a blank slate which is what you should be doing. Then you dismiss their read on me as irrelevant when it isn't. I'm not saying they'll flip town. I'm saying even if they do flip town, you are still a player I need to re-evaluate. You spent a lot of time articulating their thought process for them and assuming that they only had the best of intentions when their actual posts suggest anything but. If they flip scum like I think, then I could see you as a partner but I need to read them (and you) closely.

[Wingback]

Cataphant's interaction with the wagon is one I found most suspect.

[Wingback]

Absolutely not. You need a lesson in reading comprehension. I asked you questions aimed at getting you to support your arguments. No where did I say they did or didn't do anything, nor did I say that I thought they did.

The way you phrased your questions looked like you were asking me to prove a negative.

This is also an error on your part - why are you unable to understand what I said there?

You said that whether or not I agree with their read on me was irrelevant. That wasn't my point. I said that their read of me looked fake.

Let me rephrase - You said they had no reads, then said they had a read. You saying they are right or wrong - that is irrelevant to the fact that the read exists, which was what I was getting at. You made a statement, I asked you to support it, and when you didn't do so satisfactorily, I asked you to explain further.

What I said was that they had no strong reads elsewhere besides Thor and they spent 90% of their time tunneling Thor instead of developing reads elsewhere. When asked for a readslist, they listed out a bunch of reads of which I felt that their read on me looked fake.

Not logging across, anti can deal with it. Go over wing and Thor with a fine toothed comb. Sakura's result tonight is trustworthy. JK, aim for scum. If you hit the ninja you're golden.

Not super disappointed about being the lynch, tbh. It was gonna be a struggle to keep my head in the game and I'm probably taking a break from mafia for a while, so...

And there's a clear reason I didnt full claim. I didn't want the scum to know who was the most valuable no target. Confirmable in less than 1 phase should be enough

Okay, so I was wrong on Lying Cat. Cataphant is almost certainly scum. After that, I'd look at ETL.