Mini 1837: Family Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: SirCakez

[Nachomamma8]

Imagine the glory. Look inside yourselves, you all know you've wanted to lynch someone before they could post.

Why not today? You can blame me. You can feed your dark desires without even being culpable.

Jussst dooo ittt

I have dreams of a game that, for once, doesn't devolve into absolute fuckery by page 5. I've seen scum lynched before they even posted, but rarely does it provide the satisfaction of hunting and catching that same scum and giving scum two free kills (and taking away the first kill's chance to claim) doesn't exactly light the fire in my heart.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh I didn't notice that nacho hadn't posted either. I thought she listed all the people who didn't post on her "shortlist"
Well then, care to explain why I'm part of your selective list camn and why you're okay with me being lynched? Looks like culling to me if you ask me

What sort of answer are you expecting here?
Do you think that camn is planning on pushing through a lynch on you because you are on her Day 1 shortlist?

[Nachomamma8]

I think my dreams are a lot more realisitic and hilarious

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

[Nachomamma8]

That's not what I'm talking about, I was pointing out that it doesn't look random to me like she's saying
I'm a newer player so we haven't played together much at all before
And dwlee and cakes look like the easiest pickings out of the playerlist

She said it was almost random, which is different from completely random (and if it was completely random - a dwlee/you/Cakez trio is just as likely as any other so I don't understand your criticism there). She also said that Day 1 is very dynamic, meaning the shortlist she has right now is probably based on feelings, inclinations, isn't yet significant.

I don understand why you're currently worried about her shortlist unless you think she has the intent to follow through with stated reads in the first three pages of the game.

[Nachomamma8]

poor hiplop

[Nachomamma8]

i mean really why am i and cakeboy priority to scrutinise?

I interpreted it more as "talk about these people" as opposed to "these are people that are priority sorts".

The rest of your answer is fair enough; I'd move onto something else, but I don't really have anything right this moment.

[Nachomamma8]

I'd like this wagon a lot more if the target was actually around.

You're missing the appeal of it, SpyreX.

[Nachomamma8]

Because it seems nacho is more interested in making kraska look like scum then actually finding scum
Camn is probably innocent because her posting is really loose. She's more uptight as scum.

There was not a place where I misrepresented kraska or made her look bad; the purpose of my questioning was not to "make her look bad", it was to figure out what she was driving at with her camn questioning.

The only place where she felt I misinterpreted her was when I said she was "worried", which I don't think was unreasonable or anywhere close to it, but feel free to disagree if you'd like. Why do you think Camn is town now (if it's just the uptight thing do you really think that not being uptight for one day is significant? could you give me an example of her being uptight as scum)? Why did you think she was scum before?

[Nachomamma8]

I mean like "too defensive" implies scumminess

Too defensive implies odd behavior, which is worthy of questioning because either it's something I don't understand, something kraska isn't expressing well enough, or its kraska awkwardly faking something for some reason.

"Too defensive" is also something that I didn't say or imply; they're words that you put into my mouth... why, exactly?

[Nachomamma8]

I keep refreshing expecting something more and I keep getting disappointed

[Nachomamma8]

Hammering a slot for 4 posts still seems like a pretty terrible idea in general.

[Nachomamma8]

Pretty ballsy timing, Dwlee.

[Nachomamma8]

you're whiteknighting us bruh
~Dwlee

There's a massive difference between "white-knighting" and pushing back a lynch that is proposing to lynch you because you're a hydra, don't you think?

[Nachomamma8]

you're whiteknighting us bruh
~Dwlee

There's a massive difference between "white-knighting" and pushing back a lynch that is proposing to lynch you because you're a hydra, don't you think?

we've done jack though lol

Who cares? It's Day 1. It's Page 6.
No one has done anything worth reading.

[Nachomamma8]

I have absolutely no idea what you're even trying to argue here: are you telling me that I should hammer you?

[Nachomamma8]

It's completely possible that you have scum her, but I don't really see why him dying two days from now does anything but help the game state. Two days from now I'll have a more solid group of people I am willing to trust, I'll leave a better footprint so that I will have made a mark on this game if I'm shot N1, and his partners will have to deal with your wacky push on him for two days longer (as in they will actually have to comment on it). If he's town, it gives him a bit of time to recover from an awkward and underwhelming entry, it gives him time to get a bit frustrated, it gives him time to let things out a bit more.

Like right now I can see his dumb "oh nacho is scum you're whiteknighting me" line as scum trying to for the HEY I'M WACKY AND TOWN points and I can see it as Dwlee just flailing around under pressure. I see SirCakez's recent push similarly; could be scum, could be town, no real idea right now. A couple days down the road and maybe Dwlee backs off or maybe Dwlee keeps pushing but either way it will tell a hell of a lot more than his entrance did.

[Nachomamma8]

look at this post

vote: SpicyJalapenoKnocks

Will you listen to me this game Spy?

LOOK AT IT

VOTE: dramonic

What's wrong with it?

[Nachomamma8]

There are better places to throw your vote around if that's what you're aiming to do.

[Nachomamma8]

Saying "the way Nacho is defending me creeps me out" is fine and is something I understand.

This:

you're whiteknighting us bruh
~Dwlee

There's a massive difference between "white-knighting" and pushing back a lynch that is proposing to lynch you because you're a hydra, don't you think?

we've done jack though lol

is not.

[Nachomamma8]

I am not happy.

[Nachomamma8]

SpyreX, don't worry; I will not let a wagon on me fester all day. Either the paranoia surrounding me will surround and devour me alive or someone will pull their head out of their ass and I'll be a free man once again.

I don't have a lot of time right now and probably won't post until a bit later tomorrow (long day ahead of me), but I'll do my best to give you a little taste of the hellfire to come.

[Nachomamma8]

The "I'd move onto something else but I don't have anything" reeks of Nacho wanting to get off kraska because he knows it's a shitty push (or whatever he's calling it) but has nowhere else to go.

This is a not so great premise based on what stage of the game it is currently. I can do whatever the hell I want at this point in the time because everyone who has played more than five games of mafia knows that currently the name of the game is throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Arguing that I struggled to get off an RVS push (that no, wasn't a push more than it was questioning) is equivalent to me arguing that this case is you overcompensating because you wanted to separate yourself from your shitty House vote (which, just to be perfectly clear, is 100% an absolutely absurd argument).

"feel free to disagree if you'd like" pings my scumdar. Shows too much uncertainty.

Saying that he could feel free to disagree was a challenge, as evidenced by "...which I don't think is unreasonable or anywhere close to it" which came immediately before. I don't even understand what the "too much uncertainty" point has to do with anything or how you even got to that point if you were actually reading my post; the rest of the post was very strongly and obviously not "uncertain".

I find Nacho's response here oddly tame. Like he just accused Cakez of misrepping him and just asks him why he did it rather than looking for motivation. Doesn't jive with me.

Cakez misrepped me. I expect Cakez to misrep me regardless of alignment because he doesn't typically read very closely.
Saying that I was too tame for you is equivalent to saying that I'm too defensive, or angry-sounding; unless you have decent familiarity with a person or you've played with them a decent amount, nitpicking someone to the degree that you're doing to me right now is ineffective and annoying as hell.

More "there's nothing to work with!"

Context: Dwlee's entrance was underwhelming and that post was a follow up to that point.
Which you would realize if you were reading my posts.

This is just unnecessary. The jalapeno wagon wasn't ever going through so early. Nacho knows this.

I know that it's happened in the past. I know a couple of times where I've had that same attitude that you have here.
I also know that playing conservatively has absolutely nothing to do with alignment. You know this too!

Again, a tame response. Here jalapeno is accusing him of white knighting and instead of looking at WHY jalapeno would say that, he posits a dumb rhetorical question.

I didn't white knight Dwlee.
I was pushing back against the idea of a speedlynch, as you just noted.
Why is pointing out that I wasn't whiteknighting him an unacceptable response?

More "there's nothing to go on yet."

How on earth are you missing the context here?
Like, okay, maybe I understand you missing the last one, everyone makes mistakes, but there's clearly a reason I'm pointing out that it is still in the early stage in the game that you ignore for absolutely no reason.

This reads as scum bewildered that his attempted buddying isn't working.

My argument was that Dwlee's early wagon was stupid.
His response was that they hadn't done anything at all (in the first day of the game).
That response was dumb.

[Nachomamma8]

The nature of being "too" something (too laidback, too lurky, etc.) implies scumminess, so I pointed that out and he agreed and voted Nacho.

Someone acting differently than you expect means that it's perfectly normal (and the purpose of the game even) to prod at it. Someone acting differently doesn't mean that they are suspicious, especially when you don't have any familiarity with a player that's acting differently.

As for your "I'm close to 100% sure that Nacho is scum"... You've played with me a few times but not many times at all, you haven't demonstrated any unique strength in reading me (I remember you being paranoid as hell in Gumball of me as town and I remember you defending me in Musical when I was scum), the game isn't yet three days old... don't you think that you should probably dial back the confidence a couple of notches?

[Nachomamma8]

Look at this scumbutt
I never said he said "too defensive", I was talking to gigabyte lol.

Gigabyte said that it looked like I was making kraska look too defensive.
Your response was that too defensive = scumminess.
If "too defensive" = "scummy", then "making kraska look scummy" and "making kraska look too defensive" are equivalent statements.
If you didn't agree with his point, then it makes no sense for you to respond to his point the way you did as opposed to saying something along the lines of "I disagree with your point!".

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho's posts at the start seeked to actively misrep Kraska, then when confronted with this he proceeded to misrep me then started dodging the game.
That summarizes it pretty succinctly.

Let's actually look at my posts against Kraska again:

Oh I didn't notice that nacho hadn't posted either. I thought she listed all the people who didn't post on her "shortlist"
Well then, care to explain why I'm part of your selective list camn and why you're okay with me being lynched? Looks like culling to me if you ask me

What sort of answer are you expecting here?
Do you think that camn is planning on pushing through a lynch on you because you are on her Day 1 shortlist?

I think we can both agree that I'm not misrepping kraska by asking her questions. At least, I hope we can both agree on this point.

That's not what I'm talking about, I was pointing out that it doesn't look random to me like she's saying
I'm a newer player so we haven't played together much at all before
And dwlee and cakes look like the easiest pickings out of the playerlist

She said it was almost random, which is different from completely random (and if it was completely random - a dwlee/you/Cakez trio is just as likely as any other so I don't understand your criticism there). She also said that Day 1 is very dynamic, meaning the shortlist she has right now is probably based on feelings, inclinations, isn't yet significant.

I don understand why you're currently worried about her shortlist unless you think she has the intent to follow through with stated reads in the first three pages of the game.

I said that she "criticized" camn's shortlist, which is true.
I also said that she was "worried" about it. Is this the misrep you're talking about? What am I misrepresenting here?

So, AT BEST, your big problem with my exchange with kraska is that I used the word "worried".

Second, to me dodging the game? Because I went less than 24 hours without posting? No.

[Nachomamma8]

In what world is "too defensive" something used not to describe scummy behavior?
I don't understand the relevance of my past with you, that's pointless shade casting. I don't need experience with you to have a strong read on you.

Defensiveness isn't a scumtell. Being "too defensive" isn't a scumtell, it's a personality trait.
I never described kraska as "too defensive" or "too anything", I just keep drawing a line between "this is something I am questioning" and "this is something that I find scummy".

And no, I don't imagine you would understand why I'm bringing up your past failures.
When I am nightkilled this game and I flip as town, understand that your approach to me doesn't work. When your approach to someone doesn't work, you need to change how you approach them, you need to try harder not to read them, you need to be more careful with your reads on them so you don't fall flat on your face the next time.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Elyse

While I'm still acknowledging that Elyse's case could have just been a townie trying too hard to put words with feelings, I'm not really buying that Elyse as town would stretch quite that much (in particular her "Nacho's saying that nothing has happened! Scummy!"), and I don't really like her "too tame, too much uncertainty" tells; I don't think that any of what she pointed out is an actual scumtell or anything that she believes is a scumtell and I don't think she'd make such a large case on something she knew was completely insignificant.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not really buying that Elyse as town would stretch quite that much

I really wish I could agree with you.

Why do you disagree?

[Nachomamma8]

Oh i don't think it's a scum move. The double down on it especially. But it's still moon farts

I have a little personal experience that makes the double down a bit less convincing than it would be otherwise, I will dig it up when I'm home.

[Nachomamma8]

tbh i think the nacho push is probably coming from town but we should talk about the dramonic push

kraska do you think anyone is scum or are you still pro-spicy policy lynch

Do you have anything to add to the dramonic push? I've been uninterested because I don't see how his play has been different from normal dramonic play thus far.

[Nachomamma8]

Also, why do you think Elyse's push on me looks town?

[Nachomamma8]

post 326 nacho votes elyse and this is totally a valid vote/push to make after his rebuttal of her case...but then he goes on to say he acknowledges that elyse could be town and i feel this negates the effect of his vote if that was supposed to pressure her...

I was acknowledging a different point of view (that I have considered) before explaining why I didn't think it was the case. I find that keeping in mind that the person you are pushing could be town is a healthy way to approach the game in general.

[Nachomamma8]

post 326 nacho votes elyse and this is totally a valid vote/push to make after his rebuttal of her case...but then he goes on to say he acknowledges that elyse could be town and i feel this negates the effect of his vote if that was supposed to pressure her...

I was acknowledging a different point of view (that I have considered) before explaining why I didn't think it was the case. I find that keeping in mind that the person you are pushing could be town is a healthy way to approach the game in general.

If you don't believe they're scum, why do you want them lynched?

Believing that someone has a chance of being town =/= believing they are town.

[Nachomamma8]

idk, I don't push unless I'm sold.

Then we are different people, which isn't particularly surprising.

[Nachomamma8]

Alright. Agreed. There is enough meat in this sandwich.

VOTE: SpicyJalapeñoKnocks

I think this is the right move today.

a) likely scum.
b) Reasonable amount of wagon-analysis opportunity.
c) not sold on nacho-scum
d) death to all hydras.

The only opportunity for good wagon analysis is analysis of wagons. We don't have that right now.

Don't let Elyse off the hook so easily for today; let me press her, let her continue her case against me, let me rain why it's dumb to let her off the hook so easily; you and SpyreX gripe about losing to lurker scum but Elyse is a top tier lurker and you're letting her go because she made that tiny little "Nacho is still scum" line?

[Nachomamma8]

btw is elyse generally a lurker...? because i'm getting the vibe she's just been busy recently, doesn't seem fair to call her a top-tier lurker just because of this game

I was referring to her play this game, not her play in general.

[Nachomamma8]

My big problem with this is your motivations here (misrep wasn't a good term for it). I don't think anything you attacked Kraska for was AI and it looks like a scum trying to fake a push early on onto a player who left themselves open to an easy push. It reminds me of your Waco Kid push in TV Show Characters mafia which just ended.

I never attacked Kraska. I didn't vote Kraska. I didn't say that what I pointed out was alignment indicative; it was different than my expectations which is why I pushed. My push on Waco Kids in TV Show Characters; it happened late game when people were ready for a lynch but didn't like the options before them, and I framed it much like the way that SpyreX is framing the Jalapenos lynch now in that he was lurky, he was underwhelming, he needed to die.

Could you point out some specifics of why you thought the two pushes were similar?

That's something we disagree on
Gigabyte was the one who said you were trying to make kraska look "too defensive", not sure why you're arguing that part with me

Where did I call Kraska scummy? Why did you think that I was calling Kraska scum (or trying to make her look bad since you love your semantics)?

[Nachomamma8]

As promised, here's a scum ISO that shows why clearing Elyse for doubling down in a situation where most scum wouldn't is a bad idea.

If Nacho isn't lynched by tomorrow morning I will be PISSED

Just read his latest posts and his shitty OMGUS vote on me. I think my personal favorite is telling Cakez that his read can't be strong because he hasn't played with Nacho "many times".

Part of what feels strange about this post is the "oh if Nacho isn't lynched by tomorrow morning I will be pissed" - it's overblown. Even SirCakez who said that he was close to 100% that I was scum on page 2 or some dumb crap like that didn't expect me to be lynched in a day. And maybe it's a bad move for me to expect Elyse to see some flaws in what she's pushing but a lot of what she's pushing makes absolutely no sense at all and it's really really hard for me to see town becoming so cartoonishly close-minded at such an early stage of the game; as scum who feels particularly comfortable 1v1ing people, definitely.

And as for her attack on me for criticizing Cakez for not being able to read me, here's the context yet again:

Err when he's voting nacho the intent is pretty blindingly clear. He thinks nacho is scum and it isn't a bus therfore town.

It's drunk but the logic itself is whatever

I know that, but unless he's close to 100% sold on Nacho-scum I fail to see why using that as a reason to townread kraska isn't completely stupid. Like you could have a read on a single player and use that to get a read on every other player in the game if you wanted but you wouldn't because that would be ridiculous. Doing it with one player is just as bad in terms of logic.

I am close to 100% sold on Nacho scum.

I pointed out that 1) Cakez sucked reading me in the past, 2) Cakez hasn't played with me much, 3) The game was three days old.
I was pointing those things out because you shouldn't have a "close to 100% read" that early in the game when you don't really have much familiarity with someone and have sucked in that little experience they do have.

[Nachomamma8]

As promised, here's a scum ISO that shows why clearing Elyse for doubling down in a situation where most scum wouldn't is a bad idea.

If Nacho isn't lynched by tomorrow morning I will be PISSED

Just read his latest posts and his shitty OMGUS vote on me. I think my personal favorite is telling Cakez that his read can't be strong because he hasn't played with Nacho "many times".

Part of what feels strange about this post is the "oh if Nacho isn't lynched by tomorrow morning I will be pissed" - it's overblown. Even SirCakez who said that he was close to 100% that I was scum on page 2 or some dumb crap like that didn't expect me to be lynched in a day. And maybe it's a bad move for me to expect Elyse to see some flaws in what she's pushing but a lot of what she's pushing makes absolutely no sense at all and it's really really hard for me to see town becoming so cartoonishly close-minded at such an early stage of the game; as scum who feels particularly comfortable 1v1ing people, definitely.

And as for her attack on me for criticizing Cakez for not being able to read me, here's the context yet again:

Err when he's voting nacho the intent is pretty blindingly clear. He thinks nacho is scum and it isn't a bus therfore town.

It's drunk but the logic itself is whatever

I know that, but unless he's close to 100% sold on Nacho-scum I fail to see why using that as a reason to townread kraska isn't completely stupid. Like you could have a read on a single player and use that to get a read on every other player in the game if you wanted but you wouldn't because that would be ridiculous. Doing it with one player is just as bad in terms of logic.

I am close to 100% sold on Nacho scum.

I pointed out that 1) Cakez sucked reading me in the past, 2) Cakez hasn't played with me much, 3) The game was three days old.
I was pointing those things out because you shouldn't have a "close to 100% read" that early in the game when you don't really have much familiarity with someone and have sucked in that little experience they do have.

[Nachomamma8]

I just can't see scum holding onto it though zito help me

The concentrated awful from the outset certainly doesn't seem to be coming from a sunshine and rainbows place. The subsequent lack of backtrack feels more deer-in-headlights stuck that stubborn stuck. It's "yeah well uh fuck here lemme sling some mud and slink into my hole to let this blow over" to me. If this was true town blinders tunneling AHA I FOUND SCUMZ here I would expect a dissection of Nacho's response but instead she took her ball and went home.

But that's just a theory, a game theory, thanks for watching.

I wasn't even expecting a dissection; even something along the lines of "I didn't like how slimy that felt" or something more believable than cherry picking me having a problem with Cakez being close to 100% sure that I'm scum not three days into the game and saying that she expects me to get lynched overnight and that's the smoking gun that should do it.

[Nachomamma8]

245 didn't feel like a townpost. like where is the town motivation in taking potshots at someone's townreads if you're not scumreading any of those people? if he disagreed about one of my reads that's one thing, but that's not at all what he said. also him calling it a townbloc was kind of ???, while i was sheeping cakey at the time i didn't really have any intention to get those 4 people to work together because i still feel like i'm sorting everyone at not super happy with all of my reads. i just don't really get how someone reacts to me saying "I have 4 townreads!" the way he did, it was an overreaction to nothing.

First of all, this is a game where dram did what dram typically does and people were confused and appalled all at once. If you were looking for something more along the lines of personal experience, then I'm not quite sure how to describe his play other than "something like this".

His explanation for lashing out at your townblock seems to be because he thought you were townreading them because they were your friends; dramonic likes to be grumpy and tell people who aren't doing things as well as he's doing things that they suck. I won't pretend like he's doing it because he has some great concern for the town and is particularly aggressive about cutting off unhealthy lines of thought before they begin, it's just more of a dram thing which you'll see if you ISO him or podoboq (who had a reaction that's quite similar to yours right this instant).

[Nachomamma8]

Also, I think your reaction to him calling it a townblock is a tiny bit of an overreaction. Some players do refer to their townreads as a town block, and you lumped a bunch of us into one post in such a way that it could be seen as such.

Not saying that he is town, but your suspicions seem a little wobbly.

Oh yeah and I agree with this; not sure why calling a town family a town block is an overreaction or why that overreaction is even scummy in the first place.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho work with me here. I'll give you yours tomorrow.
Whomever else wants to be a champion of justice get on this train.

Duh house is p awesome and its a front

I don't need your vote in order to make a lynch happen; if you want to bribe me to your wagon, I'm easily swayed by analysis and attention.

[Nachomamma8]

1) As scum, why lurk out your own lynch?
2) Along the same kind of lines, why would scum lurk out their partner's lynch at this point rather than bus the fuck out of them? Presently, no one's really shouting about their lynch with any real conviction except SpyreX, and if you want to convince me they're partners then glhf.

I don't think that lurking out their lynch at this point is intentional (there's no real reason to lurk here as either alignment); I thought the best reason for calling Dwlee town was him accusing me of white-knighting when I was the only person who wasn't shitting on him at that point in time and that tell is mitigated by me already having people who suspected me at the time.

I also don't really think that the game has been going on long enough to say that people are lurking out anything, but maybe that's just me...?

[Nachomamma8]

No that literally happened.
Scum jalapeño would have been bussed don't ya know

It happened and then Elyse said that the logic was strong enough where she decided she was officially against the jalapeno wagon.

I'll respond to the rest of her post when I have time, but I am currently on the way out.

[Nachomamma8]

He's saying that Elyse was bussing Spicy, isn't he?

I thought elyse was agreeing that my slot's response to getting wagon'd was town or whatever?

Oh dear.

[Nachomamma8]

Plus...nacho is really good. He keeps his secrets at L-4. Does he keep them at L-1? Inquiring minds want to know.

Camn -
When people are wagoning you for bullshit reasons, do you keep your secrets? Or do you get pissed off?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't like the prospect of being forced to claim in a game where I should be drawing a nightkill. There is absolutely no world where I allow myself to get lynched or I make it anything but an immensely painful slog for whoever the hell is currently trying to mislynch me, but it's fairly easy to get me to play my cards on the table simply by working with me and talking with me instead of talking around me - I am not you or SpyreX, I am not afraid of tipping my hand or undermining the wagons by being too transparent because eventually the truth will out in the end unless people are sticking their fingers in their ears and refusing to listen, refusing to read, and if that's the case, then I will eat a mislynch knowing that I've done everything that I can to fight it, and I will make my thoughts as transparent and clear for anyone willing to pick up my torch once I'm gone.

[Nachomamma8]

Plus...nacho is really good. He keeps his secrets at L-4. Does he keep them at L-1? Inquiring minds want to know.

Camn -
When people are wagoning you for bullshit reasons, do you keep your secrets? Or do you get pissed off?

Wouldn't someone that's pissed off be more likely to retain their secrets out of spite?


</semantics>

Generally people who are pissed off don't help the people who they're pissed off but don't mind here I'm just chillin on Planet Earth(tm)

[Nachomamma8]

Notice that Spyrex called the Nacho wagon "boring" (not bad) and thinks it's legitimate enough to stick around until the end of the day.

Hey, House: what do you think of this argument?
Elyse is currently arguing that because SpyreX called my wagon "boring" and didn't explicitly call it "bad" he secretly loves the hell out of it.
Great argument, right? Coming from the place of a strong town player?

[Nachomamma8]

See, me and people like me, when we say that a player's posting is boring, what we really mean is that a player's posting sucks. But people like me like to occasionally have a little style when we talk, ask rhetorical questions, use different adjectives to describe similar things but apparently that's absolutely ridiculous in Elyse's eyes? Probably yours too, right?

[Nachomamma8]

Notice that Spyrex called the Nacho wagon "boring" (not bad) and thinks it's legitimate enough to stick around until the end of the day.

Hey, House: what do you think of this argument?
Elyse is currently arguing that because SpyreX called my wagon "boring" and didn't explicitly call it "bad" he secretly loves the hell out of it.
Great argument, right? Coming from the place of a strong town player?

Where do you get "love the hell out of"?

Exaggeration for effect does not work well with me, I'm too literal.

Her argument is that because SpyreX used the adjective "boring" instead of "bad", he secretly thinks my wagon is a good one.
Do you think that is a good argument?

[Nachomamma8]

And I really want you to parse and understand Elyse's arguments right now because I completely understand your approach; it's fine to respect people and give them space when they deserve it, but when someone you respect is giving you a plate of absolute bullshit, then you need to give them hell for it. I think that Elyse is a fantastic player as both alignments; I think that she's insightful, I think that she's smooth as scum, I think that she's logical, and I think that she doesn't consistently make me want to tear my hair out. She is a better player than what she's presenting right now, and I really don't think you will disagree with me if you actually give her arguments the time they deserve.

[Nachomamma8]

I think it's an opinion and not something that can be objectively fact checked, so I'm willing to accept that she thinks that.

Whether i agree or not is irrelevant, the question is whether her belief is genuine to her.

You should know all this, so what are you really driving at?

When I respect a player, it is because I think that their opinions are better than the opinions of average people.
When you tell me that she is better than you at reading people, I expect you to be analyzing her approach; how is she reading people? What are the points that matter to her, what are the points that she's bringing up?
Your opinion of her matters because she is your sounding board this game; you should be paying attention to her opinion more than anyone else's. I care about your opinion of her because my case on her is coming from a similar perspective to your perspective (a position of respect), and if I'm completely off then you're in the best position to tell me because right at this moment it doesn't feel like she's going to convince me that she's town by the strength of her own posting.

So, once more with feeling:
What do you think of her argument re: SpyreX and adjectives?

[Nachomamma8]

Do I think she's trusting tryharding right now?

Yes.

Do I think she's scum tryharding? If Elyse is as smooth as scum as you say she is, I don't think she'd be fumbling and tripping all over herself in an early d1 case.

That's awful noobscum, don't you think?

She's strong as either alignment. Stumbling and tripping is abnormal regardless of alignment.

[Nachomamma8]

And just because this has been a game of "OH GOD THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID" here's the quote in all of its unadulterated glory:

Cakes bringing the hard hitting journalism.

You've got two heads producing that. Yes i want you lynched. Would i be shocked if you flipped town? No. Would i cry tears of regret? No.

This nacho wagon is boring. Too boring in fact. But just the right level of boring that it will fester until day end and then lo and nehold there we are

Notice that Spyrex called the Nacho wagon "boring" (not bad) and thinks it's legitimate enough to stick around until the end of the day.

The implication here is that because SpyreX called my wagon boring (not bad), he doesn't think that it's bad.
And because he said that it would stick around until the end of the day, he thought that it was legitimate.

Is it really that much of a stretch of the imagination to divine bad from boring? I don't think so. Do I really think that what he was trying to say here was "man this Nacho wagon is legitimate but I don't want to admit it"? Hell no. I don't think that Elyse believes either of these things because they are both ridiculous thoughts and neither are things that SpyreX actually said (which is what a misrep ACTUALLY is, Cakez take note). I think that she's playing the way she is because she thinks that no one will read her exchange and she thinks people will read her on tone and she will coast as a result.

[Nachomamma8]

So by your own admission her shitty (by your definition) case is NAI.

What else makes her scum?

I don't think that she's stumbling or tripping over herself, I think she's misrepresenting the shit out of an overwhelming majority of cases that she's touching and I think she's doing it because she knows that she's able to get away with it most of the time because, surprise surprise, people don't actually read the games that they're playing. They see a huge wall and they go "effort! probs town" or "I had a scumread on them before! probs scum" and that's that.

[Nachomamma8]

I just don't think 526 is the smoking gun you think it is.

She isn't even commenting on the case against you in that post, she's commenting on somebody

else's

opinion of the case.

That's not the entirety of the issues I have with 526; Rome wasn't built in a day and so I'm trying to encourage people to actually read the shit she's trying to peddle piece by piece, one step at a time. I just want you to look me in the eyes and go "you know what Nacho? you're right. that argument sucked ass. I don't think it's alignment indicative and I'd still lynch you in a second, but, in this specific scenario, you are correct that argument was dumb and weird". And then I'll be able to go to sleep with a smile on my face tonight.

[Nachomamma8]

If she's smooth ass scum!Elyse, why would she pick one of the worst possible people in the game to antagonize her first (real) vote?

She's smooth as scum not because everything she says is smooth; she's smooth because she knows how to play to an audience. she knows people aren't reading our wall war. She knows that people will probably dismiss her for tone alone. I think she's failing on a couple of points, but really, who cares about those points? Does SpyreX? Does Camn? Do you? Fuck no. You know that people often townread you simply for posting a bunch; they don't care what you're saying as long as you're saying. Elyse is playing the same game, but if you actually look into her posts, there's no way in hell that you can come away from it all with a "yeah, I think that she actually believes this" type of read.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm happy to unvote Elyse!
If you read her posts and demonstrate to me that you've spent time understanding them.

[Nachomamma8]

ok in the meantime i'm gonna wall war for the two and a half people who actually take time to read walls consistently

[Nachomamma8]

You never said you loved me.
But now you're implying that you loved me? And it's better to be loved and lost than never to have been loved at all!!!

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Dramonic

[Nachomamma8]

just as a word of warning i'm drinking a very alcoholic margarita before i respond to elyse's latest post

[Nachomamma8]

which doesn't reflect well on her since i can be absolutely shitfaced and still point out why her arguments are bullshit

[Nachomamma8]

Fine you cant come to my birthday party think about that madam.

So ill ask a legit question again:
Elyse is considered a strong player y/n

y

you're welcome, zito.
you're welcome.

[Nachomamma8]

By absurd argument are you talking about me saying you're struggling to get off your RVS vote or my House vote?

If it's the former, I think you kinda dug yourself into a hole there when you shrugged your shoulders and said you had nowhere else to go. If it's the latter, then why didn't you call it out earlier? As you said, RVS is mostly throwing shit against the wall and seeing what sticks. What was so "absurd" about what I said? I clearly missed the context because I didn't read the pregame thread at all but I don't see what's so crazy about my House vote.

RVS is mostly throwing shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.
It shouldn't be so difficult for you to see me throwing some shit out there on page 3. And yet it is. Because my two posts on kraska is me super pushing him and not at all me throwing a little bit of shit at a very clean wall to see if it creates the Virgin Mary, amirite?

[Nachomamma8]

And to rephrase for the more literal among you:

The argument she is making against me is that I am struggling to distance myself from the early Kraska push early. I find this an absolutely ridiculous assertion because it was page fucking 3 and you don't need to spend significant effort distancing from an opinion on page fucking 3.

[Nachomamma8]

No your posting is your own don't even start with me

Hey while I have your attention

I still wanna know what's substantially different between Hiplop and Jalapeno

Spicy is at least letting us know about r/l demands, for one thing.

hiplop is just a snoozefest unless he starts getting pressure.

Turn up the heat and watch him pop like a kernel.

dramonic's been a snoozefest with pressure
let's kill him bud

[Nachomamma8]

I think uncertainty was maybe the wrong word...scared? timid? It's like you were afraid to take a stance and had to add the "feel free to disagree" in there. You say it's a challenge but to me it looks more like you're not trying to take a stance.

The stance that I was taking (that I didn't misrepresent kraska) was not a particularly difficult one to take. It was one that I would be expected to take regardless of alignment. It was one that Cakez, king of the nonsense tunnel, agreed that I was right about down the road when he actually read my posts. Your argument sucks.

[Nachomamma8]

good work dramonic.

[Nachomamma8]

He's done more than hiplop.

Everybody on the roster has.

Even Spicy

this isn't really that significant of a point for me.
"doing more" doesn't really matter unless I like their content; a good majority of the time, "doing" possesses a disgustingly close correlation with "time available".

[Nachomamma8]

I don't use meta much, sorry! When I see someone say "why did you misrep me" rather than "Cakez misrepped me, he's scum because of x or it's not alginment indicative because of y" (which you didn't do until I called you out), it's scummy.

Oh, right.
Because I worded it as a question and not as a statement it was scummy.

I apologize for every time I ever criticized your arguments for being utterly atrocious.

[Nachomamma8]

How am I supposed to know that this was in reference to Dwlee's underwhelming entrance?

I am reading your posts and looking back I guess I could see that but it's not clear at all.

Two things:

1)

yeah ofc then they go and do that and make me look stupid

So on a scale of 1-10 how much coordination did those two posts take.
I mean it can't be 1 afterall.

I keep refreshing expecting something more and I keep getting disappointed

These posts were made within 10 minutes of one another.

2)
Who the fuck says "I keep refreshing the page expecting something

more

and I keep getting disappointed" as a way to describe them not getting anything out of the current game state?

I mean I guess this is also a point where only I can see how it's ridiculous, but from my experience, people don't refresh the page constantly expecting to get reads.

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Elyse

Too much blind attacking, not enough thinking. I know she's capable of actually taking a step back and showing some element of *game-solving noises* and I'm not getting any of that here.

Can you talk to me about why you thought the Dwlee hydra was town because they haven't been bussed yet?
The argument assumes that 1) every scum partnership busses immediately, 2) scum aren't already bussing, and 3) town will suspect their play to such an extent to where they would be dead if scum jumped on. Can you walk me though it?

[Nachomamma8]

I also know that trying to derail a nonserious wagon on page 12 on someone who has done nothing is scummy. Especially when you said you were disappointed by their entrance, apparently.

SpyreX has been pushing this wagon for the entire game.
Why do you think it is nonserious?

[Nachomamma8]

I think House's reasons for voting hiplop are silly.
Hence why I'm not voting hiplop and instead giving new blood and a new energy to a classy dramonic wagon started by some awesome dude way back in the day.

[Nachomamma8]

I just don't understand why you're giving the dwlee slot so many chances. "It's the beginning of the game, there's not much to go on" "I'm disappointed" "We shouldn't lynch jalapeno" "I didn't white knight you". All of their content is shitty/misrepping you and you seem fine with it.

Dwlee is around 15 years old?
I'm willing to give him more room than I'm willing to give other people. I've again pushed back at SpyreX's dream and not the prospect of lynching him immediately which other people have agreed with me on but you haven't addressed because you're three knees deep in "Nacho is scum who has done a bunch of horrible things (he hasn't actually done) land".

[Nachomamma8]

1) Not really, but with the slot having reached L-1 at several points already and no one except me really being sold on them being town you can't honestly believe they'll survive to endgame. May as well grab the towncred while it's still on the table.

I don't think that lynching scum Jalapenos at this point earns a lot of town credit for whoever kills them.

[Nachomamma8]

Anyone else on the wagon was basically "meh whatever sure I'll see where this goes" and I'm not sure you could even call that bussing.

It's not particularly difficult to see scum adopting that position who don't want to lynch their partner but also don't want to be seen defending them.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think that lynching scum Jalapenos at this point earns a lot of town credit for whoever kills them.

More towncred that they'd get for doing nothing or defending them though.

But not enough towncred where every possible scum Jalapeno partner would bus them as you seem to be implying.

[Nachomamma8]

Postie's response to Ranmaru seems pretty town.

[Nachomamma8]

GOOD PEOPLE:
RANMARU
POSTIE
CAMN
KRASKA
HOUSE
GIGA
ZITO
SPYREX

BAD PEOPLE:
ELYSE
DRAMONIC
SPICY
CAKEZ (?)

[Nachomamma8]

I'm disappointed that SpyreX died last night.
I've skimmed and I see a couple people are waiting for my input on... what, exactly? Cakez claimed a guilty on Kraska. Kraska had a ridiculous response. Kraska is scum.

Vote: Kraska

[Nachomamma8]

Let's talk about karaka and dram.
Yesterday I was leaning dramscum... But karaka was flailscum, and offered to night target dram pretty quickly.
If dram is his partner... How would that have played?

Kraska gets another night, scum kill who they want, kraska says that he attempted to target dram but it didn't go through.

[Nachomamma8]

This happens with any night target that kraska offers to shoot; you're not playing the long game when you claim SK/vig.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey, Giga - I don't think that you're scum. Come lynch Elyse with me.

Vote: Elyse

[Nachomamma8]

@House yes he was a scummy scumbutt for all of day 1 and the fact he's still going after Elyse is terribad

So, because kraska pushed Elyse, Elyse is now completely off the table?
When I flip town, who are your three scum?

[Nachomamma8]

"terribad" because scum never bus or distance from one another, right?

[Nachomamma8]

She was already obvtown before kraska pushed her
Plus people with more kraska experience then I said she doesn't like to bus

Why was Elyse obvtown?
Is it because she was pushing me?

The people with more kraska experience... that's giga, right?

[Nachomamma8]

His enabling Kraska to self hammer yesterday was especially awful

And then you can explain this whenever you like; what else had to be done yesterday?

[Nachomamma8]

That and the fact the reasons people were using to wagon her were awful.

What reasons were that?

[Nachomamma8]

For starters, you giving content besides a vote on Kraska.

That needed to happen yesterday? That couldn't happen today?

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah it could have been pretty helpful for night actions

What night actions?
You're always getting protection over me.
You're the investigative role, so it's not like you're ever changing your read on me.
Papa Zito was the presumed killing role; he wasn't doubting me and didn't have shots at night.

I'll respond to the Elyse points later.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh, and as for your "it's so terrible you're going back on Elyse, she's obvtown from kraska interactions"... the way that kraska backed me up against Elyse when not a whole lot of other people were listening is not scum-scum interaction. You're pushing me despite of that because of a pre-existing scumread that you had on me. Alternatively, I'm pushing Elyse because of a pre-existing scumread I had there; if a reread shows that wow kraska's interactions with Elyse are in no way scum-scum then I'll back off but that's not what a skim says and giga's meta of "kraska doesn't like attention when scum" is applied too naively (as demonstrated by the kraska scum flip) so I'm not just going to blind trust it.

[Nachomamma8]

It's ok Kraska, I'll fight to my death to make sure they don't lynch you

unless i scumread you this game, that'd be a first

btw kraska you should totally vote with us!! why no RVS vote?

elyse, i'm townreading both of those people though?? explain

also kraska who are you voting for? i can't find a vote from you

I can see the incentive behind his nacho vote and he's sticking out his neck a little...looks town

good, then i can feel comfortable calling this ^ my happy town family

i had slight pause about cakey because i do agree that the logic around his read on you is ??? but tbh it could be worse

(in lieu of readlists i will make edits to this picture for all of my townreads. spyrex might be the family dog but i'm still thinking about that one)

None of these interactions seem particularly scum-scum.

@postie, i doubt anyone's going to quickhammer and i don't really want to condone cakez's push until i can reassess and decide it's valid

plus i don't think a quickhammer is that much of a loss so

I don't relly understand why you ended up voting Spicy when you did; you stated earlier that it was for policy lynch reasons, but I thought the plan was to game solve in the meantime?

Did you intentionally state your ability to read her amounts to (roughly) the same averages as a toss of a coin? (Slightly lower, actually)

lol yes that was the joke

but i do think that after hydra-experience and several games with her that my read on kraska is most likely the one to be correct.

Continuing to note interactions that are extremely blatant for scum-scum (and that weren't reciprocated by kraska at all, so the chances of a coordinated strategy go down). There's no reason for giga to blatantly tie themselves to kraska so hard when kraska wasn't in any significant danger and pushing dramonic for criticizing their kraska read kind of layers on the "too blatant to be scum" levels.

Do you have anything to add to the dramonic push? I've been uninterested because I don't see how his play has been different from normal dramonic play thus far.

kind of not... i'm kind of strategically sheeping this point in the game state (i.e. following townreads in their pushes that i don't feel are misguided) but i

do

have kind of an almost-actual-for real scumread of my own on dram now so

245 didn't feel like a townpost. like where is the town motivation in taking potshots at someone's townreads if you're not scumreading any of those people? if he disagreed about one of my reads that's one thing, but that's not at all what he said. also him calling it a townbloc was kind of ???, while i was sheeping cakey at the time i didn't really have any intention to get those 4 people to work together because i still feel like i'm sorting everyone at not super happy with all of my reads. i just don't really get how someone reacts to me saying "I have 4 townreads!" the way he did, it was an overreaction to nothing.

also his explanation for it later made no sense and i felt like he didn't even read any of my posts so uh... there's that. i'm kind of shit at explaining gutreads so i don't even know if this is coherent but this is the best way i can put it for now.

also elyse's overblown push feels more like a personality-sort-of-thing to me so i didn't really read it one way or the other personally, i liked the vote at the time because your earlier posts didn't jive well with me for reasons i think i've explained?

i'll admit that i'm not giving the game 100% atm because my brain is kind of mush from irl stuff and it's still early game, my midgame is generally a bit better so i'm not going to be this useless later

one more thing: what's dramonic usually like then? the only people i've played with here are obviously Kraska and House, and also Elyse so i have a general idea of how they play but if this sort of posting is normal for dramonic i'm lost

(this was a kind of long phone post so if you need me to rephrase something more coherently i can do that.... later... much later )

If dramonic is scum, then Giga's town equity goes up even more.
Giga's approach of "following people who he thinks are town and not entirely misguided" is reflected pretty solidly in his earlier play. I thought that his case on dramonic being scum for a nonsensical criticism of the townreads was completely reasonable and seemed genuine.

I don't really see the reason why they are a major scumread.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho
I'm not "off the table" by any means. But you didn't explain why my interactions with kraska look like scum-scum when the majority of people think that it makes me look town. Your vote on me is just stale and I'd expect some additional explanation from town you.

Vote: Dramonic

Same goes to you, Elyse.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey, Giga - I don't think that you're scum. Come lynch Elyse with me.

Vote: Elyse

I don't think Kraska/Elyse makes much sense. Why do you think she was bussing?

When kraska voted Elyse, I had already been pushing Elyse for about 10 pages and no one was really buying it. This means that there's decent enough evidence of kraska not really thinking the wagon would go through. As far as the actual content of kraska's push, kraska mostly pushed elyse by going "hey do you want to vote elyse with me?" and by rehashing points that I had already pointed out, which means that unless she thought that her asking people to join the wagon was magically going to drive it to a lynch, she probably didn't think that lynch was going through.

It was a strong place to provide distance; there was a possibility that eventually I would wear down Elyse or the rest of the town enough to where I would be able to push a lynch through and thus kraska would look better in retrospect (despite not putting her team in any significant danger at the time). Whenever I am discounting a read with "this isn't a bus", I ask myself if their push on another player would damage the scumteam as a whole. If it wouldn't, you can't really give bus cred for it.

[Nachomamma8]

Ranmaru, why does scum need bulletproof to counter the town dayvig when the town dayvig is already "countered" by being lover-masons?

[Nachomamma8]

i mean that's not exactly what i was saying

What were you saying?

[Nachomamma8]

That is a good point. I figured scum would need the protection, but I guess getting a 2-for-1 trumps protection then? Are we thinking a total 4-man scumteam or 3-man scumteam?

3.

[Nachomamma8]

But if you feel this why, why throw away the push and change your vote to Dramonic?

Today feels like it will be an uphill battle. Most people see Elyse/me as a pair containing one scum. Most people don't read the words that I write about Elyse. I feel that it will be more healthy for the town if I shake out Elyse's partner and force her to bus just so she doesn't look terrible compared to me, and it will ptobably be useful for Cakez's investigative role that most of us already know but we are pretending that we don't.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote; Vote: Elyse

I actually agree with your argument. Also Elyse's push seems like a chain-saw (even though you haven't really attacked Kraska), which checks out as I'd look at both actions to see if it's mutual.

Who do you think her partner is?

[Nachomamma8]

So Cakez, as scum, decided to fakeclaim a guilty on his partner despite the possibility of an investigative role (which is present in most games) counterclaiming and sinking both him and kraska for absolutely no benefit at all?

[Nachomamma8]

If you're curious as to what his role is, he's probably a tracker or else he would have targeted me already.

[Nachomamma8]

Yet Zito died as mason-lovers which counts as an investigative role. Cakes never full-claimed, and isn't giving any clear result today. Seeing as there is a mason-lover in the setup, it is possible scum only have goons and guessed that they could fake claim a guilty. This also gives Giga town points since she asked why Cakes investigated Kraska instead of you, his main suspect.

Mason-lovers with a dayvig shot do not count as an investigative role.

[Nachomamma8]

It counts as a killing role. A weak investigative role (like our friend Cakez the tracker) makes sense.

[Nachomamma8]

Congratulations UTL!

[Nachomamma8]

And just because you only have goons doesn't mean you go all "YES TIME TO FAKE A GUILTY" in any world ever

[Nachomamma8]

Do you have reasons to think that dramonic is town? What happened to your scum read on me from yesterday?

[Nachomamma8]

1. Only as a killing role? I have seen in the wiki that masons are at least half an investigative role.

Sure but seeing lover mason dayvig in the game and going "there won't be an investigative role in the game" is bleh to the extreme.

[Nachomamma8]

2. I still have a gripe with Cake choosing Kraska over you N1.

I can explain this if you'd like me to; answer seems fairly straightforward to me.

[Nachomamma8]

It counts as a killing role. A weak investigative role (like our friend Cakez the tracker) makes sense.

I can see this. I am still wondering about him choosing Kraska over you, though.

At this moment I don't think "why didn't Cakez choose his top scum read over a middling scum read" is a compelling enough hole in Cakez's play to lynch the claimed investigative role who lynched mostly townread scum yesterday.

[Nachomamma8]

As town she's usually somewhat more productive

and doesn't do her "flip out under pressure" thing.

Can you quotee a game where camn as town took a lynch calmly? I think you probably have a very weird subsection of her meta if this is your opinion of her.

[Nachomamma8]

You're missing a key point here. kraska's push DID begin to drive my wagon toward a lynch.

Kraska's push didn't do jack shit. Kraska voted you on page 17, the wagon continued to stall for the next 10 pages. Postie voted on page 27. SpyreX voted soon after. Zito joined after that. Those three people were who drive your wagon towards a lynch, not kraska.

I think next you go into how kraska gave me the support I needed, blah blah blah: why would kraska support her scum buddy on a push that wasn't working? Wouldn't that just make her look worse when one of me/you flipped? It's not like I was in danger and kraska bailed me out; she supported me on a push that had been failing the entirety of the day.

[Nachomamma8]

I actually planned on gunning for camn today but your vote on me was worse than what she's done.

Did you really expect me to drop my suspicion on you because kraska was scum? Do you think that town Nacho who had been convinced you were scum all day would see scum soft-pushing you for a while and go "welp guess I was wrong on Elyse all along"...? The only way I'm changing my read on you is if you look town or I see compelling interactions; I already talked to giga about what those are exactly.

[Nachomamma8]

So if I were to flip scum, how would this make her look good? I'd expect a scumbuddy looking to distance to have some solid, original reasoning of their own but not push it too hard.

This assumes optimal scum play.
I already gave a scum motivation for what kraska did. I don't believe that scum always distance with original reasoning and find this argument ridiculous in general.

[Nachomamma8]

I also have a sneaking suspicion you keeping scumreading me and not voting me because you know should I flip town, you're donezo. But me, I'm willing to face the music if I'm somehow wrong about you.

If you are getting lynched I am on your wagon.
If you flip town there is no way people are going to go "look Nacho didn't vote her though" and give me a pass.

This argument doesn't come close to making any sense unless you've never heard of suspecting someone without voting them before.

[Nachomamma8]

And if you haven't, I'm suspecting you. I'm not voting you. You are my top suspect. I'm not voting you.

[Nachomamma8]

And I'm sorry for my frustrated tone towards you; it's not your fault. It's mostly just tedious interacting with you when I know no one is paying any attention to what we're saying.

[Nachomamma8]

How's that coffee going?

[Nachomamma8]

A) throwing shade at Cakez is priceless. He pulled a guilty in a previously pretty unsuspected scumzor. That pretty much earns you a free ride to LYLO if you are scum... Or a nightkill if you are town. Why go after Cakez now? Because a mislynch of the proven PR is tight.

Ranmaru, if scum, had a strong opening and put himself in a fantastic position early. I don't think that Ranmaru as scum in his fantastic position decides that today is the time to shade the uncc'd power role that caught his partner yesterday when there's a decent chance they can just kill him tonight. I don't think that he is delusional enough to think that he could actually get away with mislynching Cakez the day after he got a guilty on his partner.

[Nachomamma8]

i feel a dram lynch more than a elyse lynch but Elyse/Nacho probably shouldn't make it to mylo

We're not reaching LyLo. If you're feeling a dram lynch, come vote dram.

[Nachomamma8]

Also have no plans on going over anything from yesterday but this can't be left alone:

Also the votes on me are ridiculous. The only things I've seen people say are "yeah Nacho totes ripped into Elyse's case on him" which a) isn't true and b) Nacho's not even voting me??? So if you're going to use "what Nacho said" as a reason to vote me, then that makes no sense.

"Nacho isn't voting me so you can't use his reasons as reasons to vote me!"

It's probably linked to Elyse not realizing that I suspect her even when I'm not voting her which I

guess

isn't alignment indicative (although I really really would be surprised if that wasn't something she was aware of before dealing with me), just holy shit.

[Nachomamma8]

House: Alright man, how's that review going?

Who is your suspect for an Elyse partner?

[Nachomamma8]

Need to know whether I need to pester you about your reads or not.
The answer is yes.

[Nachomamma8]

hey cakez
who's my partner?
is it dramonic? please say it's dramonic

[Nachomamma8]

are you still going to tunnel me after elyse flips scum?
or are you going to make me lynch the rest of the scumteam before you're willing to consider that maybe i might be town?

[Nachomamma8]

If Elyse flips scum then I'd rewrite my reads dw

oh you won't have to rewrite your reads
we'll save the elyse lynch for tomorrow so you get to be wrong for the entire game

[Nachomamma8]

Camn Scum [Follows reachy Elyse argument, puts giga on cull list, votes lynch bait twice, votes hiplop, is budding with house] (#24, #33, #42, #166, #289, #328, #407, #409, #419, #531, #570, #606)

I am still under the impression scum have BP to counter a Town Dayvig. Now that Zito has flipped as mason dayvig, that points to Camn. Add to that, she is voting based on scum's reads list, instead of looking at play. The only things I do think can be legit is Kraska's actions on Day one and how she used her vote. Her reads list after being guiltied is only a means to spread misinformation.

Vote: Camn

As a case, this is incomplete.

I haven't followed your links, but I believe that camn did all of these things. What I don't understand is how they make her scummy.

First of all, following a bad argument isn't problematic; people do it all of the time. Second of all, camn didn't follow Elyse, she followed House; she had already been "budding" up to him quite a bit as you observed and so it makes sense that she would follow him if she was using him as a sounding board. The vote also made sense because she was bothered by me for other reasons; it's not like she went from Nacho's #1 fan to suddenly convinced by that atrocious Elyse wall.

I don't understand why putting Giga on the cull list was bad. Why do you think her opinion is scum-motivated?

You ding her for her votes. What were wrong with her votes?

What's wrong with "budding" with people?

[Nachomamma8]

Ranmaru you're killing me softly

[Nachomamma8]

Having 5/7 to 6/7 of the town on your lynchable list is a solid scum strategy. Don't have to risk getting called out on flipflopping that way.

If his strategy is to avoid flipflopping, then why is he flipflopping like a madman?

[Nachomamma8]

Don't play coy with me, nacho. You know as well as I do that scum 101 is to keep everyone on the table.

Scum 101 is to make some townfriends that won't lynch you, mislynch the low hanging fruit that isn't your partner, and then feed into your townfriend's paranoia in order to make it the rest of the distance. Scum 101 is not to push a case on a player, reanalyze, back off, push someone else, reanalyze, back off, push someone else; it's too much work and scum try to avoid flipflopping so publicly. I also don't think he'd be this comfortable playing as scum right now; we were scumbuds in an off-site game while this one was going on and his play there looks absolutely nothing like his play here.

[Nachomamma8]

note the use of the word "mislynch"

[Nachomamma8]

okay well note it again except not that that smug/snarky way

[Nachomamma8]

She put Giga on the shortlist for culling on something that seemed legitimate, but only because Postie seemed like she had a problem with, she along with it.

A couple of problems with this.
First, this happened on page 1. If you are factoring anything that happened on page 1 into your overall read you need to take a step back and let it go because that shit doesn't matter anymore.
Second, you are criticizing camn for agreeing with Postie's reasoning. As an isolated event, this is a useless tell; people play different ways and agreeing with someone is not an inherently scummy action.

She stated she was giving you a D1 pass yet she threw that away and was fine with joining your wagon.

This is a contradiction, yes. But is it scummy?
Camn said that I am someone that she would generally extend a day 1 pass to. Have you ever extended people Day 1 passes before? The general idea behind it is that the players you are giving the pass two are strong enough where the potential of what they can do for town (scumhunting, kill drawing potential, etc) is too large to risk lynching them Day 1 except under some pretty wacky circumstances. Now, if camn was reading me scum and was bothered by my opening as she said she was, how exactly is she supposed to react? Is she not supposed to question my actions at all? If her scumhunting style is typically pushing people and getting a bead on their reactions, does that mean the townie thing to do is completely ignore her feelings on me because she publicly stated that she was giving me a free pass?

Her #407 shows her trying to shade House when she has been budding him earlier.

I don't understand why you can't have suspicions on someone who you are buddying up to as town, which seems to be the meat of your point here. Could you explain your thought process for me here?

Her votes were on lynchbait, and I think scum would prefer those over others as it's easier to target them then others who have seemed townier.

1) I'm not lynchbait.
2) What pushes from her on low-hanging fruit do you feel weren't genuine? I don't feel like pushing on someone because of their targets is good enough; sometimes townies suspect lynchbait and sometimes townies defend scum. What pushes has she made here that you don't think she would make as town and why?

Her claiming PGO reeks of scum who wants to have a reason for staying alive for the night when she's been yelling that she'd be nk'd.

Do you really think that scum!camn thought that people expected her to die N1 so powerfully that she decided she needed to fake a PGO role that would explain her surviving one night? I don't think most players expect to be questioned after surviving one night. I don't think any players expect to be questioned after surviving one night.

[Nachomamma8]

I read my #912 and was reminded that Kraska never actually responded to Elyse's second question. That gives Elyse town points.

Could you explain how scum not responding to someone's question means that they can't be scum together or why it is less likely?

Nacho still has the concern of asking Kraska a question and concluding it after 50 posts.

What? Is your implication here that every question has to go somewhere?

Kraska added her vote to a failing wagon, but she has been pressing on Elyse for quite a bit.

Kraska parroted my points and went "vote Elyse with me!". This is not significant action to push a lynch.

I think Elyse gave good points in her #1367.

I need you to break this down for me. What compelling points has Elyse given, exactly?
Is it when she spun the narrative to make it look like Kraska pushed her to L-1? She implied that kraska was the one who pushed her wagon when it reality the votes that swung the momentum were Postie's/SpyreX's/Zito's and kraska had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Was it her very compelling argument of "why would kraska distance when kraska could push a townie"? The point of distancing is to set up for town cred down the road. The point of lynching a townie is to move closer to your goal in the short term.
Was it that "kraska really meant to push my wagon through"? Kraska asked people to vote Elyse and Kraska agreed with my points. Kraska did this a lot, but Kraska's push was not any more advanced than that. I have no doubt that Kraska wanted to look like she wanted Elyse's wagon to go through when the Postie/SpyreX/Zito triumvirate pushed her; it'd be a shame to waste all of that good distancing by backing off the second the scumbuddy you were pushing gets in trouble.
Was it her argument that scumbuddies only distance with original reasoning because they want distancing to look good? Hint: there is no motivation to make a bad case. As scum, you want good arguments on townies so it doesn't look as bad when you lynch them. As scum, you want good arguments on buddies so it looks better when you lynch them.
Her argument for me being scum with kraska makes no sense; I didn't need support.
Let's look at initial reactions to after I voted Elyse:

Spoiler:

Your AtE is not convincing

That hellfire wasnt hellfirey enough but this wagon makes me sad.

I kinda like Nacho's responses, tbh.

I'm not really buying that Elyse as town would stretch quite that much

I really wish I could agree with you.

329 makes me want to both scumread Elyse for how fake it sounds and townread her for how ballsy the push is.

Yeah same her push seems unconditionally strong considering the gamestate
I was iffy on nacho But that last post on elyse was bad...it just seems really weak, like "here, have a vote"

Elyse's case was a pile of crap and Nacho tore it to shreds. More interesting is Elyse refuses to back down afterwards.

well met

I am entreating the blood gods for a miracle vig. Please oh miracle vig deliver us the dead bodies, amen.

The only people who didn't like my responses to Elyse were A) Cakez, who has been tunneling me all game and B) Kraska herself. Funny how if Kraska thought that I needed support that she would immediately throw shade on my response to Elyse after a few townies gave their endorsement of it, right? Also notice how kraska only started supporting my case after it got a positive response and people still didn't end up following it; Elyse paints the picture of Kraska saving a scumbuddy in trouble but that's not at all like it went down (she also implies I was getting heat at that stage; when kraska voted me, it was far beyond that point).

Or is it the part where she thinks I'm trying to avoid responsibility for lynching her by not voting her?
Was that the part that swayed you?

[Nachomamma8]

so why focus on Elyse to give more reads than nacho and not the other way around as well?

"hey what are your reads other than nacho?" is a very very easy way for scum to tell their partner to talk about reads on people other than nacho because the nacho tunnel is not going so well.

[Nachomamma8]

i don't see how that was an unreasonable question from kraska though; what were Elyse's reads at the time she made that post? can you name any other than me?

[Nachomamma8]

simply because scum don't 'need to' distance on page 3 doesn't mean they won't do it.

I don't know why you brought distancing between scumpartners up when that wasn't the subject of discussion at all. Elyse's argument was that my initial push on kraska was so terrible that I had to distance myself from it. That was a bullshit argument.

If they were both scum I would expect their interaction to be calculated, and finished.

And this is just a weird expectation. This just reads like you

feel

scum finish their interactions and don't really have anything beyond that which is lame.

Nacho did seem like he had an awkward interaction with Kraska, and never concluded it until 50 posts later.

I asked a question. I don't give in thread conclusions with every question. The only reason it became a big deal in the first place is because Cakez and others threw such a big shitfit over it.

[Nachomamma8]

@Sir Cakes: Because I'm more confident on Camn/Gamma today. Think it's possible Elyse v Nacho is TvT?

you haven't been reading sir cakez's posts have you

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: Did you consider that Elyse v You could be TvT? Did you consider that Kraska was focusing on Elyse!town and you!town as town to spread misinformation?

I've considered worlds where Elyse is town but Kraska doesn't really have anything to do with it.

[Nachomamma8]

Your case on House seemed to be "House sheeped a lot".
I don't deny that it would be cool if he did his own thing ever but sheeping isn't exactly a scumtell.

[Nachomamma8]

hey camn before you go to asia vote elyse with me

Vote: Elyse

[Nachomamma8]

Your case on House seemed to be "House sheeped a lot".
I don't deny that it would be cool if he did his own thing ever but sheeping isn't exactly a scumtell.

That's quite the watered down version of what I was saying, man.

but that's essentially what you're saying, right?
house sheeped constantly. and when he wasn't sheeping, he was making easy votes.

[Nachomamma8]

i don't think that we will see eye to eye this day.
so i'm going to lynch elyse and she will flip scum and you can work with that information.

[Nachomamma8]

i just want to be free from Cakez and he has told me that the only way to be free of him is by producing Elyse's mafia corpse.
and so produce Elyse's mafia corpse I will.

if you vote camn she's flipping town. house slot i'm not so sure about, but if you vote camn she's flipping town. if she flips town, guess what still needs to be resolved the next day? me/elyse.

[Nachomamma8]

i'm not concerned about camn having trouble responding to me because guess what? you're having problem responding to me too. it's called "wearing blinders".

[Nachomamma8]

hey Ranmaru

[Nachomamma8]

The only way that you're getting camn lynched if she is not loved is if every player except for me and camn votes her. That means that her partner will bus a loved partner, or I'm scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you realize how little loved-bulletproof scum makes? Or have you not thought of that yet?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm being driven fucking batty in this game; if you're going to push through nonsense lynches just vote me and be done with it

[Nachomamma8]

Elyse-me is not being dragged out until tomorrow. Elyse-me needs to be resolved eventually. If we are both alive in MyLo tomorrow, then we will end up voting each other.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you realize how little loved-bulletproof scum makes? Or have you not thought of that yet?

I thought being BP-lover with one additional vote needed is a bit much, actually.[/quote]
For town? Versus for scum?

[Nachomamma8]

If you need me to self-vote to get it done then fine but no one has come close to giving me a compelling reason why Elyse is scum. You are ramming a lynch through on someone who is very town due to setup spec and due to play and the case you have on her is moonbeams. I'm not taking any part of it. The only way you're getting it done without me is with Scum's help.

[Nachomamma8]

Loved is not lovers. Loved means that they take an additional vote to lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

And the Gamma lynch is because he hasn't done shit. Dramonic hasn't done shit either but you're allergic to putting votes there, right?

[Nachomamma8]

I also am having a lot of trouble seeing House as scum with Elyse. His play towards Elyse is extremely funky if they're scum-scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you realize how little loved-bulletproof scum makes?

I think loved-bulletproof is bs as

either alignment

Postie had to agree with Zito's shot for it to go through, so I'm working from the assumption that she didn't and Camn is not actually protected.
OR camn just automatically wins any 3p endgame for the lolz.

I'm sure the loved modifier expires at a point.
Both things are testable.
The bulletproof has been tested (Zito claimed he lost the shot IIRC so your theory doesn't really work).

So, the role is real. Does it make more sense as town or as scum?

[Nachomamma8]

That's the problem. You are so tainted by your Elyse read, that any person that doesn't fit with Elyse you don't consider.

So we have to be resolved eventually because I'm not backing down. Why not today? If you don't think that I could possibly be right, lynch me and let me be free.

[Nachomamma8]

hey cakez, vote camn so we can test the lover claim

[Nachomamma8]

loved*

[Nachomamma8]

hey dramonic are you willing to acknowledge that the bulletproof/lover is probably town aligned?

[Nachomamma8]

because making scum that much harder to kill game-breaking
making town hard to kill/lynch is not game-breaking

[Nachomamma8]

just need cakez
but cakez left

[Nachomamma8]

You said your big happy town family. That's a townbloc to me buddy.

What's the difference between a town block and town reads?

[Nachomamma8]

i don't know how much sense it makes.

VOTE: Gamma

This is where I'm starting, yeah. Why do you think it doesnt make sense?

[Nachomamma8]

You said your big happy town family. That's a townbloc to me buddy.

What's the difference between a town block and town reads?

A town block is a group of unified townreads that vote together.

Where did Giga ever push for those townreads to vote together as a block?

[Nachomamma8]

Because his interactions with kraska weren't svs

I missed this.

Why? Sorry I know I'm asking a lot of whys but to me it seemed like giga expected to be able to work with kraska and using his experience with her as a tool and is stuck now that she's gone. I don't think he expected her to be gone so quickly.

I grabbed quotes earlier, look at them.

VOTE: gamma

if you want me to die this game you need to vote me/elyse

[Nachomamma8]

Ranmaru, why are you so uninterested in resolving me/Elyse?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm fine talking about my dram read; today I am on a short schedule so I'm not sure how much time I'll have but I'll try to post something about it.

[Nachomamma8]

Where did you lay out your case for Elyse town?

[Nachomamma8]

and cakez why would you vote outside of me/elyse when i told you i'd be willing to self-vote to get it done?

[Nachomamma8]

me, you, elyse, camn - we'd only need one more for a lynch.
as I've said many a time, I'm not really interested in doing this song and dance tomorrow. I'm interested in me or Elyse today and I'm not going to let a random fuck all wagon go through instead of one of us because we have to be dealt with eventually and MyLo is the absolute worst time to deal with us.

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't give a town-Elyse case or a town-Nacho case. Yet I posted in my read reversal that I thought she was slight town, and after Gamma posted I reversed of my nacho wagon support. I think you are slight town too. I also liked Elyse's recent catch up. I really want to hear your Dram read please.

Right now the only thing that you're giving me on Elyse is "I liked her posts!". No talk why, no reasons, not jack shit. If all I gave you of my Gamma read was "House was slight town", would you be happy with it or would you be annoyed as shit?

[Nachomamma8]

Blurg this Nacho thing is freakish. You do know it will be MYLO tomorrow if we mislynch today right?

Yes, hence why I'm not overly excited on letting the wagon go through on you because of the case currently sitting on you and which is why I'm really not willing to let this stand for another day.

[Nachomamma8]

There is no one who has given a good reason for it not to be one of me/Elyse today. The best I'm getting is "hey, I'm slight town on both of you because ?????"; that's dumb.

Ranmaru, have you looked at any of House's scumgames?

[Nachomamma8]

You know what I'm lynching Nacho because his mentality is extremely anti-town.
VOTE: Nachomamma8

Why is it anti-town to draw attention to an exchange that I'm having with a player that I believe is scum? Why do you think that I am scum am drawing attention to me-Elyse instead of letting the wagon on you go through?

[Nachomamma8]

I think Nacho is actually a lyncher on Elyse tbh. I don't believe town or scum would make the promise to self-vote if their highest scumread flipped town.
VOTE: Ranmaru

Elyse promised that. I'm offering to self-vote to get Elyse lynched tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't really think she'd go through with it considering tomorrow would be MyLo if I was lynched, but w/e.

[Nachomamma8]

If you need me to self-vote to get it done then fine but no one has come close to giving me a compelling reason why Elyse is scum. You are ramming a lynch through on someone who is very town due to setup spec and due to play and the case you have on her is moonbeams. I'm not taking any part of it. The only way you're getting it done without me is with Scum's help.

Please self vote

I will lynch myself if you flip town

[Nachomamma8]

and cakez why would you vote outside of me/elyse when i told you i'd be willing to self-vote to get it done?

Why do you care so much if its done today?

tomorrow is mylo if we mislynch today.
imagine why i don't want to end up in mylo with elyse.

[Nachomamma8]

vote: SpicyJalapenoKnocks

Will you listen to me this game Spy?

The meat of dramonic's early game was hiding behind SpyreX's vote on SpicyJalapeno. As far as red flags, this is a major one for me considering dramonic is typically the type of player to do his own thing and not really give a fuck about anyone else; it also makes sense for a player who fears SpyreX (as the scumteam who shot him Night 1 probably does) to hide behind SpyreX while he's alive.

I can see the incentive behind his nacho vote and he's sticking out his neck a little...looks town

good, then i can feel comfortable calling this ^ my happy town family

i had slight pause about cakey because i do agree that the logic around his read on you is ??? but tbh it could be worse

(in lieu of readlists i will make edits to this picture for all of my townreads. spyrex might be the family dog but i'm still thinking about that one)

That is one awful townbloc.

Probably one of the five newest players on site, OMG FRIENDSHIP!!!

EDIT: zito so full of hate

This dramonic criticism was pretty incoherent; I can understand him criticizing the townblock if "you have scum in it, you're missing out on all the obvious town" something game-related or something that actually made sense but OMG FRIENDSHIP!!! doesn't really make any sort of sense at all.

vote: Camn

I am offended you put me in the same pool as Hippo and Jalapeno Zito >:(

Dramonic followed SpyreX onto camn as soon as he voted her after weakly calling her scum earlier. Still hiding behind SpyreX. Still nothing original. Still not being open about it.

So, the role is real. Does it make more sense as town or as scum?

This is her third claim, color me skeptical.
It makes zero sense as

either

alignment, I'm calling BS.
But if you wanna test the loved claim we can put her at 5 votes and see what happens.

EDIT: town. My scumlist is camn/elyse/giga

The way that dramonic treated camn's claim felt like scum who had difficulty letting go of a mislynch; it took a while in our exchange for him to even admit that camn wasn't bulletproof/loved scum (which really should not be a difficult argument to make) and even then he still wouldn't let go to her quite possibly being 3p (despite no evidence of extra kills).

As far as what's missing from his usual, it doesn't actually feel like he's doing any actual scumhunting: compare with a random town game of his. In this game, he tunnels and engages iron pretty fucking hard whereas here he didn't say a single word on SpicyJalapenos despite voting him for a good portion of the day while his Day 1 scumread on camn consisted of "camn is scum. she put me in the same pool as jalapeno!".

[Nachomamma8]

And a couple of moments supporting kraska-elyse-dramonic from dramonic's end:

I doubt an SK would suddenly try to draw a million ties with me out of nowhere

I have no idea where dramonic got the idea that kraska was trying to tie herself to him by suggesting she shoot him; it's not too difficult for me to see a situation where dramonic saw kraska's proposal as some really terrible distancing and tried to do some damage control.

been pretty disconnected from the game, busy with a million other things, but

I'm pretty sure we'll net one/two scum within camn, elyse and giga. Nacho doesn't really feel like scum to me?
I'd like to see a sober post out of camn in the near future, cuz that ranmaru scumread is ridunculous
Ran (I think it was), mason aren't investigative. Knowing one person as conftown isnt an investigation, especially when they're lovers anyways. Also whatever you're trying to get out of Cakez you should stop that. There's no reason to extract more than we already have.

vote: Elyse

gonna reread and get back into gear (or into gear period, depends on perspective)

Vote lasted for one day. Never seemed to revisit Elyse after that.

[Nachomamma8]

Hm. All interesting points. What happened to resolving you and Elyse?

Ranmaru asked me about my read on dramonic. I'm answering his question.

[Nachomamma8]

Now, house has been pretty active. Yet, he has had no push of his own. Or, he'd be voting stragglers when they couldn't really answer for themselves. (Hiplop) His two Nacho votes were both sheeps (Onto Sircakes, then on Elyse) #729 He states that he won't vote Elyse, Nacho, Camn, or sircakes. #641 This is to give his buddy within that pool, a chance to live to D2 without him giving a direct stance. His vote on Postie was a sheep on me. His vote on Dram was proxy. (Which wasn't even trying) I caught House with his pants down in my #1388. He then asks Elyse a question in his #1339. This shows he was lazy and my question to him reminded him he should be trying to determine her alignment. He was in the middle of reviewing Elyse and never concluded his stances. When Camn was making her push on me a page back, House only posted in jokes, not stances on what happened on that page. It's so he could keep his town read on me and whatever stance he had on Camn. I pressed him to give a stance and he replaced out.

What frustrates me about this case is that it focuses on House's votes and absolutely nothing else.

Dramonic also hadn't had a push of his own but Ranmaru apparently didn't notice because dramonic didn't announce to the world that he was just gonna follow SpyreX around like a sad puppy for the entirety of the game. Ranmaru criticizes House for voting Hiplop even though that was a vote he made on his own impetus and it's not like pushing people who flat aren't around a bad move. He says that House saying that he won't vote for a certain group of players means his buddy is in that pool; no, that's god damn bias, that's building a scum case around an action and sure as hell isn't looking at it (because camn does the exact same thing with her day 1 passes). There's nothing to this case beyond this that I can see but boy I'd love to be sold.

[Nachomamma8]

Meanwhile, things that House actually did:

Yup. SpyreX is town.

I liked his early strong townread on SpyreX, I agreed completely. I'm sure one could frame it as "buddying it up to strong town", but I didn't view it that way; I thought the way of describing SpyreX practically begging people to pay attention to him was an approach that made a lot of sense and I'd imagine scum wouldn't belt on about how town SpyreX was if only to avoid being singled out for buddying.

VOTE: Nacho

Let's not lynch Spicy before he has a chance to push somebody.

I'm dying to say he's jalapeno business.

I mean like "too defensive" implies scumminess

Or panicky town.

VOTE: Spicy

Fun wagons are fun.

I don't think that scum tend to blatantly contradict themselves like this within a matter of minutes for the same reasons why House thought SpyreX was town; I think that this is a strong play towards getting attention and it's something that looks classically scummy and few scum players do things that they know will be taken badly unless it's for a higher purpose which this clearly wasn't. His off comment to Giga's and Cakez's conversation shows that he is paying attention to what's going on; if scum is paying attention to what's going on, it makes much more sense for them to form a push of their own if they're able to do it and not too lazy to do it.

Not a fan of his attack on defensiveness.

There are town AND scum reasons for being defensive, and wtf is TOO defensive? Should town just roll over and be lynched to avoid looking too defensive? How does that work?

I just find his push to be Meh, and he's campaigning for town leader with his multiple votes, where he hopped from one to the next when he didn't get a bunch of followers.

Looked tryhard.

Just not a fan of his play.

This is House's original read of Cakez. He misunderstood what Cakez was saying here, but I still think the fact that he's thinking about the games and pushing reads other people aren't really thinking about.

I'll be back later, no time now.

[Nachomamma8]

Not sure why you'd be concerned about that since you're so sure Elyse is scum?

You're not sure why I wouldn't want to make it with Elyse to lylo when everyone is currently voting Gamma and ignoring me/Elyse and she has proven she can dodge the lynch day after day after day

[Nachomamma8]

Agreed Cakes.

Why was being bothered by a post "bad shade throwing"? This is a nonsense point.

[Nachomamma8]

What is the point in you posting #1666?

What's the point of throwing shade at someone who isn't getting lynched? Do you really buy into the reasoning that only scum would doubt the investigative role?

[Nachomamma8]

And gamma don't fuck with me.
You are about to get power lynched.

The hell?
I'M IN HOUSES SLOT YOU IDIOT

THIS IS SO SCUMMY
Being in House's slot means fuckall, he wasn't townie

The point that Gamma was bringing up was that Camn was hard townreading House earlier, which is a valid point regardless of your opinion on House. I thought House looked town as fuck. I think it would be sad if Gamma got lynched here when the case against him doesn't really hold up.

[Nachomamma8]

And I think it'd be especially sad if camn lynched him here despite recognizing him as town early and holding onto him as a pretty strong townread almost immediately.

[Nachomamma8]

House asked questions, but his conclusions sometimes did not match with a town mindset.

You said that House brought up something that concerned him about Postie. You say that his conclusions didn't reflect a town mindset not because you agreed about his conclusions, but because he didn't pursue him the way you would have. This is a bad way to approach a read on someone; not everyone pursues things for pages and pages after the fact and just because House had concerns doesn't mean that he needed to form some big push on the slot as well.

[Nachomamma8]

He over-reacts to Nacho's Dram vote possibly due to a connection to him.

I don't know what world that was an overreaction in but going "seriously? hiplop is not making any significant contributions at all" is not an overreaction in mine. You say it's a connection to dramonic as a partner but you did the same exact thing by ignoring dramonic and pushing the House slot (who has done a hell of a lot more than dramonic has) instead. Dram and hiplop were both low contributors, but at the time, hiplop was beneath dram.

[Nachomamma8]

He has been active and questioning but has not really provided that many scumreads.

This doesn't matter. He's been an active participant in early game and has had no problem taking stances; he's provided plenty of scumreads even if he hasn't cased them in the style that you do; this is an attack on play style, not content.

[Nachomamma8]

but forgets that he has to fake scumhunt

This should not be a real argument. Scum don't forget they have to fake scumhunt.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey, camn - have you looked over House again before you lynch his slot?

[Nachomamma8]

Will reply to you soon, Nacho. You are wrong. I want to ask, since when did your Dram scum read originate?

When I voted him.

[Nachomamma8]

Maybe Giga is town after all...

vote: Elyse

???

Nacho doing Gamma's work for him is reallllly pissing me off. I held off on voting Gamma because I wanted to see how he reacted to pressure and the case on him but Nacho did everything for him.

I will defend townreads, especially when they're at L-1 and especially when Ranmaru is strong arming the shit out of the lynch.