NY 170: Georgetown II (Game Over)

[Tebow]

/confirm

And yeah, VI clearly doesn't mean Vanilla Townie. :rolleyes:

[Tebow]

Vote Emeraldemon

Saying stuff after game begins that could have easily been said in confirmation stage means it's only for towncred.

Yeah, this'll do.

Vote: Emeraldemon

[Tebow]

This means compared to a mountainous 10/3 there is a gain of 3 mislynches to find one scum. Compared to a mini normal of 10/3 where you have 3 mislynches here we have 6 but no PR's. I just don't see that as likely the number of mislynches available seems too high for only 3 scum, this, combined with the fact the game will also take forever if it were only 1 scumteam means 13/3/3 seems very likely.

Tell me; how many scum did you assume there would be?

The sample scum role PM also says 'You are a Mafia Goon' not 'You are a [TYPE] Mafia Goon.' It seems unlikely to me Huntress would deliberately reveal the exact size of the scumteam(s). In any case - why do you believe speculating on this at this specific point in the game is useful?

[Tebow]

The sample scum role PM also says 'You are a Mafia Goon' not 'You are a [TYPE] Mafia Goon.' It seems unlikely to me Huntress would deliberately reveal the exact size of the scumteam(s).

The sample PM didn't remove type but did remove an XXX to hide how many scum there are? I see!

The point being that you are speculating that there would be multiple scumteams based on there being exactly two sets of Xs, but that the sample PMs themselves do not indicate multiple scumteams, because that usually requires more info than just 'Mafia goon'- ie a name of a faction. So on the one hand, we have to believe the PMs are 100% accurate (because otherwise, the number of sets of Xs isn't a clue) but on the other, we have to believe that the faction names were redacted. That's a little weird. Not sure I buy color.

Asked what you were intending to achieve because, well, I wanted to know. Generate discussion is a somewhat disappointing answer.

[Tebow]

Unvote, Vote: Bulbazak

Emogirl's play can be very concisely summed up as 'Garmr is dumbass town.' Bulbazak's harping on the use of the phrase 'actual case' to derive the idea that emogirl has admitted she wants to vote town is just craplogic in extremis. Maybe he's just bad enough to think that two players derping around in pre-game is an actual indication of a scum link, but the alternative hypothesis, which is more charitable about his ability and less about his motives, seems totally plausible.

[Tebow]

Bulbazak's harping on the use of the phrase 'actual case' to derive the idea that emogirl has admitted she wants to vote town is just craplogic in extremis.

It's a very odd and unnatural way to phrase things. I could understand if she said she saw a bad case on a townread, or if she said she was watching the development of the Garmr wagon looking for opportunistic scum, but no, she said she was

preparing

, meaning premeditation, to vote whoever provided an

actual

, i.e. genuine (something that scum can't do), case on Garmr. Say it's crap logic all you want to, but that one sentence provided a valuable insight into her thought process and showed scum motivation in her intent.

OK: It's craplogic. 'Actual case' and 'Genuine town motivation' are not two things that a reasonable person acting in good faith would think are the same. Clearly, 'actual case' is to be contrasted with 'pressure vote' or 'random vote,' not 'fake case.' Your mindset reads like "Can I find a definition of 'actual case' that would make her sound scummy, then imply that's what she meant even though it clearly wasn't?" Because, seriously, what scum would actually say 'I want to attack town players?'

Maybe he's just bad enough to think that two players derping around in pre-game is an actual indication of a scum link, but the alternative hypothesis, which is more charitable about his ability and less about his motives, seems totally plausible.

Something felt off about the interaction, and it made me wonder if we were looking at scum theatre. And as far as scum theatre goes, pregame is the safest place to pull it off.

Can you give me any examples of 'scum theater' you've seen in the past? 'Pregame is the safest place to pull it off' is just an assertion - seems to me pre-game is the absolute worst time to distance, since it draws attention to/makes people pissed off with both of you, and it doesn't actually work as distancing because you're not really putting your partner at risk. Empirically, non-aligned players derp about together in pre-game all the time. Calling it 'scum theater' just sounds like a cheap excuse to sling some mud to me.

Emogirl seems to have clear, if possibly misguided, town motivation flowing through all her actions.

[Tebow]

'Actual case' and 'Genuine town motivation' are not two things that a reasonable person acting in good faith would think are the same.

Acting in good faith?

Yup. IE, trying to actually ascertain her alignment, rather than just deciding to try to paint her as scummy. If I can't see a reason a

reasonable

person acting in good faith (ie, town) would interpret a post in a certain way, that usually leaves three options: you're unreasonable, you're pursuing a personal vendetta, and you're scum. I don't like calling people stupid when there are alternative hypotheses, and I don't have any meta suggesting personal animosity.

Clearly, 'actual case' is to be contrasted with 'pressure vote' or 'random vote,' not 'fake case.'

And how does that change the interpretation? That just means she was ready to attack any case, or were you thinking she was planning on attacking a different type of case, and how would that not contrast with "fake case"?[/quote]

Because she felt Garmr was a poor player who scum wouldn't be able to resist attacking, therefore the first person who tried to actually build a wagon on him was likely to be scum.

Your mindset reads like "Can I find a definition of 'actual case' that would make her sound scummy, then imply that's what she meant even though it clearly wasn't?"

No, that phrasing did not feel natural to me, which was why I noticed it. And even if we were to ignore her particular word choice, the way she has gone about with her attack and her explanations since then point to the mindset that I have outlined. This is not some bit of semantic trickery. The intent behind that sentence was the same regardless of whether you buy the definition of "actual" or not.

Other players, please note Bulbazak baselessly asserting that his interpretation of her 'intent' is the same thing as her actual intent. Actually, I think they speak far more to the mindset that

I've

outlined.

She meant to attack those that presented a case on Garmr. It was not spur of the moment.

Never seen town try to lay a 'trap' before?

She admits to wanting to shut down discussion on him. She says it's to protect her townread, but when pressed, she couldn't give an adequate answer why this should be the case, since she admitted to ignoring most of Garmr's posts. Then when she was called out on defending Garmr, she backtracks and said that she was defending herself by defending Garmr, which is BS. So go ahead and criticize my interpretation of that one sentence. It still doesn't change her actions, which happen to back up that interpretation.

This is a hugely uncharitable interpretation of what she said and did.

Because, seriously, what scum would actually say 'I want to attack town players?'

Want town says that?

This would be valid, if

her having said that

was mutually accepted information. Since the argument is precisely about

whether that is a reasonable interpretation of what she said

, it's just crap. My argument isn't town say that. My argument is that Emogirl didn't say that, and you're deliberately twisting her words.

Gotta run to a lecture.

[Tebow]

Not liking the emogril wagon. I agree with OMGML: it is a lazy lynch.

And ABR isn't? Explain.

These things are so unalike that it hurts.

Also, Chevre's vote on the emogirl wagon is soooooo bad. It even sounds like Chevre know it's wrong in the course of making it - that old chestnut, the 'Well you've dominated the day to the point where lynching you will produce loads of information' argument absolving the voter of even having to commit to portraying confidence in a scumflip. This is a wagon built on misrepresentation and carried forward by lazy wagon-hopping.

[Tebow]

Yup. IE, trying to actually ascertain her alignment, rather than just deciding to try to paint her as scummy. If I can't see a reason a

reasonable

person acting in good faith (ie, town) would interpret a post in a certain way, that usually leaves three options: you're unreasonable, you're pursuing a personal vendetta, and you're scum. I don't like calling people stupid when there are alternative hypotheses, and I don't have any meta suggesting personal animosity.

You're one of those players who try to see the good in every player, believes innocent until proven guilty, and ends up doing very little as a result, aren't you?

Since I'm attacking you, HARD, that seems like an odd thing to say.

Other players, please note Bulbazak baselessly asserting that his interpretation of her 'intent' is the same thing as her actual intent. Actually, I think they speak far more to the mindset that

I've

outlined.

Read back over her posts. The intent you outlined doesn't fit in with her actions.

Given that I read her posts, and that seemed the obvious interpretation of her intentions, I don't see why doing the exact same thing again would lead to me coming to the opposite conclusion. Also, people who are not bulbazak should note that this is another bare assertion on his part.

Never seen town try to lay a 'trap' before?

Never seen scum flail before?

Never seen accusations of being 'flailing scum' made toward town before? It's an incredibly common scumtactic to accuse people of 'flailing.'

She admits to wanting to shut down discussion on him. She says it's to protect her townread, but when pressed, she couldn't give an adequate answer why this should be the case, since she admitted to ignoring most of Garmr's posts. Then when she was called out on defending Garmr, she backtracks and said that she was defending herself by defending Garmr, which is BS. So go ahead and criticize my interpretation of that one sentence. It still doesn't change her actions, which happen to back up that interpretation.

This is a hugely uncharitable interpretation of what she said and did.

It's an accurate interpretation. Get out of your fluffy clouds of sunshine and rainbows and join us down here in reality.

It's a BULLSHIT interpretation. For it to be true, she'd have to be the stupidest scum who ever lived.

She did say that! I can't help it if you want to sit there in your own little world and imagine there aren't people who kick kittens just for fun, but she did freaking say that!

LIAR! SHE DID NOT SAY THAT! YOU MISREPRESENTED HER AS SAYING THAT!

[Tebow]

OK, so there's an actual counterwagon here.

Vote: Chevre

Bulba's still either scum or the dumbest, confirmation bias-iest town of all time, though.

Love how Chevre unvotes as soon as people start pointing out that his wagon jump was scummy.

BTW... I suggest people familiarise themselves with the mafia-playing norms of 2p2.net. From what I remember, the average player there posts far more frequently than here, and has a much spammier kind of playstyle. The sort of annoying, pretending to do antitown things kind of way emogirl started this game is, from what I remember, the standard way games get started over there.

[Tebow]

Yet I did not unvote until I had a defensible excuse

Amirite?

[Tebow]

Just a spoiler: I've been playing mafia for 7 years. Should take my reads more seriously after I get lynched.

Yes it is. I play different sites though. Heard of 2p2? It's a poker site.

[Tebow]

What do you mean by town telling?

[Tebow]

I'm utterly perplexed that Chevre isn't even really pretending to scumhunt with his life on the line.

[Tebow]

I've had it with responding to him anyway. It's Vi's 'arguing with scum' thing. I'm not going to get him to admit he's scum, he sure as fuck isn't convincing me with his lies, and no-one else seems to be paying any attention to our back-and-forth anyway.

[Tebow]

OK: Nobody Special. You thought Sotty was scum coaching Emo, and voted for Emo. You're now voting with Emo and Sotty for someone who, like you, voted Emo.

There's an obvious tension between these two positions. Care to explain it? The only reason I'm not voting you straight off the bat is that a quick meta search reveals the one liners and wagon-jumping are consistent with your previous town play.

[Tebow]

Yeah, so... why did each of them 'look scummiest at the time' other than being the target of the biggest wagon?

[Tebow]

Albert's playing as per the Lord Gurgi scum strategy, apart from without the 'be super town to start with' part.

[Tebow]

Actually I'll

unvote

, because i need to think about this. Albert's vote for Chevre is scummy for exactly the same reason's Chevre's vote for emo was (except, I suppose, that Chevre is actually scummy and Emo wasn't).

[Tebow]

I think Albert is town. I have experienced the same malaise in some of my recent games. His emogirl vote was kinda scummy but his Chevre vote is good and is no reason to abandon the wagon.

Oh, the malaise thing is, of course, sometimes true. It wouldn't be a useful and common scumtactic if it weren't.

The problem with the Chevre vote is that it implies that jumping on emogirl without really adding anything new due to a self-proclaimed difficulty with getting going is scummy enough to vote for, whilst also, y'know, doing the same thing.

[Tebow]

Chevre is a good day 1 lynch. You can't just run up everybody to L-3 and then freak out when someone places that player in danger of a lynch, then choose to disintegrate that wagon and bandwagon the new player. This is mountainous, we're not going to get a game-changing claim. Instead of getting caught in a circular suspicion loop, I say we lynch Chevre.

This is a town post.

Now that this is established, with regard to Chevre, sure, his stance towards emogirl looks awfully scummy at first glance. But after I went back to reread #323, #387, and #428, I can follow the logic, and he just looks more and more town to me.

When you combine these two elements, a scumread putting a townread at L-1, I'd be inclined to turn the heat on too.

No, you don't get to do this. If you're reading Chevre as town, defend him, don't just say 'I can see why someone else might find Chevre townish and ABR scummy.' What is the logic of these three posts that you can follow? If you're 'inclined' to turn up the heat, why aren't you actually doing it? Bulbazak for all his copious flaws at least has some frickin balls.

ABR, Maenara, emogirl, in order of decreasing confidence

Was this a suspect list/

[Tebow]

I already called out everything scummy about ABR, which part don't you understand?

I'll make a post about 3 posts I listed from Chevre when I'm no longer freezing balls

fuck Canadian winter with a gay raccoon

The part where you're not voting him? The part where you're not trying to convince anyone else? You read like a guy who is happy to let the Chevre lynch go through so that you can blame ABR for it tomorrow, provided that you can say that you were opposed all along. Not to mention that 501 sounds more like a defense of bulba's attack on Rampage than one of your own, since you were responding to a question asked of him. Note how Bulbazak is actively pushing ABR and asking follow up questions. You're like "Oh, I've said what I think, why should I have to actually act on it?" The only post where you 'called out everything scummy about ABR' is 501 itself. If you want to talk about your big spoilered post, note that that post comes across as specifically designed to be as inaccessible as possible.

At best, you sound like a fan of the book 'Ten habits of highly ineffectual townies.'

[Tebow]

BTW, I think it's noticeable that pretty much no-one made a stand for the emogirl wagon once the Chevre one started growing.

Going off now, will be back online tomorrow - and will respond to yessiree then.

[Tebow]

323, 387, 428

In #323, Chevre's jump on the emogirl wagon is not unfounded. In fact, his reasonings in doing so are well-though out and easy to follow. Therefore, him placing the L-1 vote is not scummy.

Let's look at these 'well-thought out reasons.'

1/

A lot of her actions are suspicious to me, and

2.

these pages have been so dominated by her and discussion of her that I feel her flip would produce the most fruitful relationship analysis tomorrow.

1) Unspecified 'she's been scummy' 2) Lynch for information. The first is vague and useless, the second is scummy for all the reasons that have been pointed out previously.

Calling out emogirl for "defending Garmr, calling Garmr a townread while noting his posts were 'flaily'". Calling out emogirl for doing the same to Meanara.

This is definitely not scummy on emogirl's part. 'Flailing' is not a scumtell. Someone can be town, and can be losing their shit, at which point they aren't worth listening to.

I agree with the logic of Linking Bulbazak and Garmr to emogirl.

Well, hang on, why? The 'logic' of linking bulbazak and Garmr to emogirl is this: "I do think there is something strange about Garmr and Bulbazak's play, but I don't really know for sure where it is going because it is so greatly linked to emogirl." How is this logic? Vaguely asserts something out of the ordinary about how two people are playing, doesn't say what it is or if it's scummy, and it's apparently somehow 'linked' to emogirl in a way he also doesn't spell out. IE Here's something, I don't know what it is because of something to do with another player.

I agree with the logic of info from an emogirl flip will help "define the relationships for many people to [emogirl] with confirmed alignment"

Lynch for information, SCUMMY! HOW will it define these relationships? What will he, or you, be able to do with this information?

I agree with the logic that with emogirl being dead the attention will be "[focused] on those who aren't really contributing".

If this is a problem, why can't you focus on the non-contributors now? "People are focussing on emogirl, this is allowing people to get away with lurking, therefore let's wagon emogirl." LOLNO.

In #387, Chevre's unvote on emogirl is not unfounded either. I have felt the same about the matter he mentioned.

You having the same feeling doesn't mean you have any good basis for that feeling.

I agree with the logic that scum would not have done what emogirl had done. And that is, "when someone has tried to start a counterwagon to that of her own, she has gone against it. First with Maenara and now kabooooom. [He doesn't] see scum doing that".

Right, fine. Assume you're scum who's been caught piling onto a bad wagon with shit reasons. You realize that if the lynch goes through, you're going to be PE#1 tomorrow. At the same time, you can't just unvote immediately, because it would be nakedly obvious you'd just tried to push the leading wagon over the top, and chickened out when called on it. So instead, you wait until you see something, anything, that a town player might intepret as evidence of that player's town-ness that you can use as an excuse. All the while being careful not to do so in a way that would actually convince anyone else to jump off the wagon.

I mean, it's not impossible a town player would find her townish for that reason. But scum don't tend to do things that town would never ever ever do. They tend to do things that help them achieve their goals, for which they're able to give town-sounding excuses. I mean, that's pretty much scum 101.

In the first paragraph of #428, (at this point he is at L-4 with a sudden momentum shift towards the build-up of his wagon), he clarifies his unvote on the emogirl wagon, which was backed up in his #387.

In the second paragraph, he lies down the potential that both emogirl and his lynch will bring about. There is no scum motivation to be found here, only genuine towniness.

Read: he keeps his options open with regard to wagoning emogirl in future. As for the potential, literally all lynches have this potential. Any lynch is going to have people voting for it, people opposing it, 'connections' etc. Why are these two lynches special? Here, it seems rather than trying to work out who the best lynch is, he's going "It's day one so whatever" and trying to act all self-sacrificing in the hope people will read that as town. No. If you're town, the very worst thing you can do is give up without a fight for 'information.'

If he's town, he's playing horribly. The scum hypothesis seems equally valid, though. Your post has moved YOU into my town column, because you come across genuine, but at the same time reminded me why I think you're oh so wrong. I'm not certain he's scum, obviously, but he's more than scummy enough to be an excellent day one lynch.

[Tebow]

Vote: Chevre

Still support this wagon. Didn't want a derphammer, but I don't want it to slip away either. Don't have time to do a full response to yessiree... let's just say that 'Could equally be town or scum' describes a player who's a good day one lynch.