Large Normal 199: L'Hôtel Pleuvoir (Fin)

[Tywin Lannister]

At work so can't post or read anything yet, but confirming. VOTE: Alisae cuz hi! And OMGUS! .

Will read/post at my lunch break

[Tywin Lannister]

Off work finally. I usually work til 5 pm PST but left early cuz Friday! Yay!

Anyway, am catching up now.

[Tywin Lannister]

Just got to the last page, and two players I've actually played with before have posted things I was actually about to write myself. I find myself nodding my head in agreement, and this puts them in my town pool.

1. Kyou calling out Lapsa for that gibberish post. Wth is that supposed to be? Hyroglyphs? If lapsa wants to write shorthand notes, he can do it on his computer/phone without making a post on it. Use actual sentence structure in threads, or at least make it legible. Lapsa posted a lot of 'happenings' in short hand (for no apparent reason), yet didn't give any actual thoughts about it. What message are you trying to convey Lapsa? Are you attempting to look like you're contributing while actually not doing so? Not all posts are created equal, and #209 alerted my scumdar. It says nothing at all with a lot of words. It's the same as if I posted every post/page number in succession in a huge wall post, and that's it. It says nothing, gives nothing to read, and it's useless fluff. Without thoughts or action, that post alone puts Lapsa in my scum pool. I'll have to ISO to get a clearer picture, but I haven't seen anything useful with the quick read I just did.

2. Alisae voting Cloud. Cloud looks like the scummiest player in the game so far IMO. I will write more on this in another post (on my phone, ease of use difficulties). My overall feeling though is that Cloud is scum. He is definitely pretending to be the vi. Posts look forced, content looks useles/all fluff, no real game evaluation, and he isn't trying to find scum. I can't see how anyone would get a TR off of cloud at the very least, and not knowing his meta, I'd say that this VI throwaway excuse is a bad one. VI = liability/anti-town, and it's a catch-all to remove scummy play. I know I've played the carefree VI as scum in the past, and it works on those who don't read/pay attention/evaluate the game past the current page. It makes the supposed carefree VI look active, but it's not playing the game to lynch scum. It's there to pretend contribution/activity and avoid the lurker suspicion . If he is the VI every game as he claims, then he should reevaluate his play. There are always players that are lynchbait in every game they play, but most at least try their best. Cloud isn't trying at all to be pro-town. Therefore, cloud gets my vote.

VOTE: CloudKicker

[Tywin Lannister]

I also dislike Lapsa's new vote on Alisae. What are your reasons? Give them if you are town. If not, carry on.

[Tywin Lannister]

Ebwop: Nevermind, it was an unvote.

[Tywin Lannister]

136 was an obvious joke, stop taking everything so literally

A bad joke, but that's not the point. The real point is you trying to 'joke' your way through the game doing absolutely nothing useful. Jokes are great when you also contribute, but you haven't and don't seem to want to.

[Tywin Lannister]

I never claimed vi, titus did and its her read on myself not mine. This is my townplay, when im scum i dont aggro the attention of the whole town just to do my show, i can give you 2 game on site that demonstrate that meta.

I don't use or care about meta. Every good player can and does change their meta to help win games for their alignment. Meta is for either those naive enough to assume people are robots who never change their play/get better, or those policy lynchbait players that don't know how to change. I doubt you're either of those two, so don't bother. You're in this game currently, so I'll judge my reads off of that. They could change, but you are currently my top scum read.

[Tywin Lannister]

People are really innaccurate on average on this site and this is one of those reasons, actions are NAI, intention/motivation are AI

Wrong IMO. Motivation is always simple for scum: don't get lynched, get town lynched. That's it. Everything after that is pointless conjecture. Actions are the process of following win con for both alignments (and third party). Actions are everything. Motivation is a red herring.

[Tywin Lannister]

Its funny, you say that im not a good game so therefore my meta wouldnt change, but you refuse to consider meta to read me.

Actually, I didn't say you're not good? I said I don't think you're bad, so you could easily manipulate meta to work for you rather than against. Meta is an easy defense to scummy play that isn't easily countered. It's not good for town to need meta as a defense, but scum absolutely love it. I will say that if you are always looked at as the VI when town, what causes that, and why don't you switch it up? Maybe you purposely act that way as scum to give a good meta cover? Who knows? Youre basically telling me that I'm giving you too much credit here? I think you're much smarter than you've let on.

[Tywin Lannister]

I should probably do an ISO of each player that looked suspicious on my fast catchup read. Will try to post updates reads soon.

[Tywin Lannister]

Titus why do you think Gamma is not a BFF?

He's null. Too early.

No hes not, he voted obvious town and you say someone fosing obvious town is null because lack of content beep beep
Lapsa is obvious town, sonia didnt say hi so ill go and say that its not towny, titus had 2 bad posts, tra

Why is Lapsa obvious town? Obvious? Really? Guess I missed that boat. Please explain why he's town and what makes it so obvious. I find Lapsa scummy, and he has a wagon currently, so you'll have to explain to everyone what the obvious part is they're all missing (unless you think Lapsa's wagon is all scum).

[Tywin Lannister]

Fuck Chicago winter.

I'm back and thawing out.

Nero; by "buffer" you mean on what wagon?

This is why I moved to Seattle. I haven't seen snow in two years, and I moved two years ago. Coincidence? Wish I could've flown home for the Cubs parade though.

[Tywin Lannister]

What do you think of me town reading Lapsa?

I'm wondering why. I TR you for evaluating the game though. That's far more than some have done.

[Tywin Lannister]

What makes Lapsa town? I put him in my slight scum pool. Can one of you 'Lapsa is town' players give a reason?

[Tywin Lannister]

I think the Lapsa wagon was shit and wouldn't be surprised to see scum on it.

Can say this about literally any D1 wagon. Why is Lapsa probable town (or obvious town according to Cloud) than probable scum? Do the players on Lapsa's wagon look scummier? Are there any specific posts by Lapsa that give town vibes? Is there anything to look at, be it a string of posts, a vibe, whatever that gives you a 'Lapsa is town' impression rather than just 'this wagon got big too fast, must be scum driven?' Im seriously wondering what it is that makes you all think Lapsa is town. I'll let cloud explain the 'obvious' wording, since he said it. I just want to know why that is the read you came away with, regardless of it being a gut feeling or due to the players on the wagon. What created that TR on Lapsa?

[Tywin Lannister]

@Tywin do you mind proving this?

Proving what? That I was at work? Really? So it wasn't a joke post? Lol wow, okay then.

Umm... Okay. My proof is that I own this phone, pay for its service, pay for the wifi internet it's currently using, pay for the apartment my wifi, phone, and body are in, paid for the couch im sitting on, and none of that pays for itself. I live, therefore I make money. I do that at a thing called a job. I don't remember when my OP was that you asked this question, but I know it was before lunch.

So why did you ask this question twice? I assumed it was a joke at first, but you posted it again. Troll post? Or...? If it's serious, then why would you ask me for proof that I work on a weekday? What are you hoping to achieve by even asking it?

[Tywin Lannister]

At work so can't post or read anything yet, but confirming. VOTE: Alisae cuz hi! And OMGUS! .

Will read/post at my lunch break

@Tywin do you mind proving this?

That's what my OP and then Lapsa's question immediately came after it. I assumed that's what it was for, but if it is about Alisae (why didn't he state that? English not his primary language?) not being an alt, then... I don't know aside from playing in a recently finished Newbie game with her, and she seemed to be brand new by the questions, hangups about words/accronyms like 'OMGUS, chainsaw defense, WIFOM, etc) thinking they were scummy buzzwords, and her general demeanor in her first game. I also brought up that she was an alt in that game for seeing Alisea (not Alisae) in the newbie Q. A player looked it up and confirmed both were brand new alts, and she was a new player.

Now, could that be wrong? Sure. My name is new, yet it's an alt only in that I forgot what my original name from around 2009ish or before was. Due to not knowing it, I created a new name, but I haven't played on mafiascum in years. So it's possible Alisae is an alt, but if so, she's a very good actor at playing new. I'd say she is almost certainly not a real alt in terms of experience. I don't think she's a bad player in the same vein as most newbies might be though. She's solid IMO.

[Tywin Lannister]

I think the Lapsa wagon was shit and wouldn't be surprised to see scum on it.

Can say this about literally any D1 wagon. Why is Lapsa probable town (or obvious town according to Cloud) than probable scum? Do the players on Lapsa's wagon look scummier? Are there any specific posts by Lapsa that give town vibes? Is there anything to look at, be it a string of posts, a vibe, whatever that gives you a 'Lapsa is town' impression rather than just 'this wagon got big too fast, must be scum driven?' Im seriously wondering what it is that makes you all think Lapsa is town. I'll let cloud explain the 'obvious' wording, since he said it. I just want to know why that is the read you came away with, regardless of it being a gut feeling or due to the players on the wagon. What created that TR on Lapsa?

Are you reading anything that I'm saying?

I don't think that any of the Lapsa votes were any good and while yes, it

could

be all really bad town that voted Lapsa but its my

OPINION

that they were scummy votes and thus there's likely scum in there and that's just what scum hunting is. Also Titus is ignoring the fuck out of me like she does as scum.

I don't really like this doubt casting on my reads. Why are you trying so hard to keep Lapsa lynchable but aren't even voting him?

Doubt casting? I can doubt your read while not calling it AI. I also legitimately don't understand it. You are calling a scummy player town due to non-association with the players voting him. How is that a read? That ignores everything Lapsa does in favor of what someone else has done independent of him instead.

And I like how defensive you got over me asking a simple question about your read. You basically haven't explains it, and yes, I can read. You say Lapsa is town due to his wagon looking scummy. You don't say why they're scummy, and you certainly haven't said why they're scummier than Lapsa. Why are you giving a free pass to an unknown AI player? It's fine to be suspicious of the wagon, but why ignore the player off-hand? You haven't said a word about him, just the players voting him.

Also, I can vote where I'd like. Lapsa isn't scummier to me than Cloud is RN, but my vote may change. At least cloud somewhat pretends to be trying. Lapsa legitimately looks like he wants to be lynched, and I don't know what to make of it yet. I certainly don't TR him for it though, which is why I asked you to explain. Your explanation is 'but but but.. Other players!' You haven't addressed Lapsa or his post quality at all.

Are you saying Lapsa is just useless town? He legitimately asked me to prove I was at work. That's his scum hunting at work. Do you TR posts like that regularly?

[Tywin Lannister]

Now Titus may be scum and Lapsa may be town, but I don't get the association unless you're saying exactly that: Titus is scum therefore Lapsa is town. If that's the case, say it. It's not hard. You're implying it at least, but I can't get a read on anyone without making sure they're saying what I think they're saying. That's why I ask questions.

[Tywin Lannister]

Well, feels like my vote is in the right place. I do agree with the town read on Alisae though and I'm sure a quick meta dive can confirm how she's been described for those who do TR her. I also like when she posts more seriously, it's attractive. Her questions and reads feel like they're coming from town.

Yeah, nah. You don't get to keep your rvs vote on me, not explain why, and then instead of talking about why you think I'm scum go off on a tangent about alisae instead. Tell the good people of this thread why I'm scum

Square up, you bout to catch these blessed hands

Gladiate: Lil Uzi Vert

Agree with Elibirn. Answer his questions Lil Uzi. It's only fair.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin do YOU think Titus is scum? Also what do you think currently of Elbrin and Uzi?

Way to read my mind as I post about Eliburn and Lil Uzi lol.

I think Uzi needs to answer Eliburn's question. Why does Lil Uzi think Eliburn is scum?

I don't have much of a read on either RN, but their exchange should tell more. If Lil Uzi keeps avoiding questions, I'd say he's probable scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

Hey, if nobody pressures Uzi to answer basic questions, then he'll skate by forever. I'm just adding my voice behind Eliburn's since it's a more than reasonable request. Vote some out (or keep it there outside RVS) and you should be able to explain why they're scummy. It may not be good reasoning, but either way helps others gain reads. Not answering at all or giving reasons for things is scummy though, so I expect Uzi will reciprocate.

[Tywin Lannister]

Cabd, that makes sense. I do know that when I first read it, I took it at face value. I then scrolled up to see the player you were talking about (not knowing you or your wife), and I then assumed maybe it was an alt that I don't know. I didn't like the claim, but I can't say I haven't seen it before on other forums. I don't know the mafiascum meta as it were, so that point was moot. I'm not sure it's entirely AI mainly due to it being on the first page (first post even if I remember without looking), so it just took a quick scroll up to see there was no player by that name in-game. You could argue town or scum could question it off-hand reall. I'd also say that it took no actual effort to scroll up and see the player list after seeing your post. I didn't have to click on another page to see it.

So that being said, it is somewhat more likely that scum Lapsa tried jumping on it. It could also mean he did what I originally assumed before you posting she was your wife and it was a joke, which is that you were referring to someone's alt.

[Tywin Lannister]

Twin, gun to your head.

Lynch Elbrin or Uzi.
Cabd or Uzi.

Uzi

[Tywin Lannister]

Twin, gun to your head.

Lynch Elbrin or Uzi.
Cabd or Uzi.

Uzi

Then why are you treating Uzi with kid gloves?

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for the moment. I'll let him answer. I've missed questions before as town (missed yours a few times last game), so it's entirely possible he missed them. I don't think he can miss it now, so next post or two from him should give a better read.

[Tywin Lannister]

Stop walling

Love,

Me

Stop posting useless fluff and contribute.

[Tywin Lannister]

Okay, so I caught up with my morning coffee.

So for things related to me seem to be this:

1. Titus calls me scum for no reason, then votes Alisae instead. Well, to be fair, her reading was my 'it's only fair' statement, but it's probably one of the most atrocious over-reaches I've ever seen. It's that bad. That was the only reason given by Titus, and it seems the three buddied females have jumped on that reasoning as being amazing, because after that:

2. Alisae starts questioning me/thinking I'm scum after being obviously led by Titus. My favorite post was 390 by far. Apparently, la that Alisae has thought about it, I really haven't done anything except 'thinking Lapsa and Cloud is scum, and that Kyou, Nero, and me are town.' Oh, is that all? Lol. Even if that was all I did this game, it would be more than Titus or Sonia have done. Speaking of the third member in this girl buddy band...

3. Sonia pops up out of nowhere, sheep's Titus by calling me scum, and her reason is also sheeped by giving her reason as my 'it's only fair' statement. Zero originality there. That's some blatant sheeping going on.

All of these three have this in common with ONE outlier: who has asked questions out of all of them? Only Alisae. Titus and Sonia both threw shade on me, and they even asked others to weigh in on me and Alisae (who I TR pretty strongly), yet zero questions have come from her. Titus hasn't asked me anything. She hasn't tried sorting me whatsoever. The same goes with Sonia. She has thrown shade on multiple players, yet she hasn't even once tried sorting a single person. No questions have been asked whatsoever. Titus at least has the ability to lead sheep. Sonia has done zero scum hunting whatsoever and everything she does seems to sheep someone else.

Titus: why haven't you asked me a single question? Why do you continue to ask others to comment on me while you refuse to sort me directly yourself? Are you hoping a wagon forms on me that you can hop on, otherwise why haven't you voted me if you think I'm scum? Why vote Alisae for asking you to explain yourself when throwing shade on me? Do you truly believe my lil Uzi 'it's only fair' comment is a scum tell? I sure as hell don't believe that. It's weak and contrived. We both know that already though.

Sonia: why haven't you asked me any questions? Also, why did you sheep Titus exactly to the T? Do you have no original thought? I find that sheep on atrocious reasonings are almost always scum. What do you think? Also, when ssbm_Kyouko pointed out your blatant buddying with Titus in post #400, you came back in #407 calling him 'not town' for no reason. It was another OMGUS shade throw with zero follow through. You haven't followed any lead or anything you claim to be scummy with any actual questions whatsoever. Also, you claim my post #303 is 'scummy as fuck.' Please explain what in it is scummy. You said it was overly defensive and manipulative. What was I defensive about? Who was I defending against? How does that make any sense whatsoever? I joined in with Elibirn to get Uzi to answer why he thought Elibirn was scum. He never gave a good reason, but regardless, what was there for me to be defensive about? I wasn't being attacked, so why call it defensive? Also, how was it manipulative in a scummy way? Do you know what 'scummy' even is, or only when you're town and not using contrived reasoning to throw shade on players? Why are you chainsaw defending Uzi here? You AND Titus both highly dislike Uzi being questioned. Both of you have attacked me now over me forcing Uzi to answer a basic question. Neither of you seem to have any real questions for me though. Now THAT is 'scummy as fuck' (to quote your own words).

So with all that being said, that puts Titus/Sonia firmly in my scum pool, and Alisae goes in as strong town. Only Alisae has even tried to scum hunt this game. Titus/Sonia can only throw shade using terrible reasoning, while asking zero questions or even pretending to scum hunt. Sonia looks more like the sheep with no originality, while Titus is the Shepard of these misfits. I find it odd that so many of you haven't mentioned it yet. It's extremely blatant. Titus isn't being sneaky about it.



Oh yeah, I almost forgot. VOTE: Titus. I'm willing to bet one of Titus/Sonia are scum at this point. I'd gladiate them like Eliburn pretended if I could. I may get the chance after Kyouko just blatantly said he'd sheep a wagon on me. You people really love lynching town on these forums. The only time scum are ever caught in my games are when I do it myself. I'm not sure why so many are so bad at such easy things like scum reading. To read into my 'it's only fair' statement as being scummy is just ridiculous/bad play. To even assume I'd join in on the Elibirn/Uzi thing as scum period is insulting. Don't project your bad plays into me and think it will work in calling me scummy Titus/Sonia. Try again.

[Tywin Lannister]

Titus/Sonia, be glad I left you questions all in your own paragraph. Alisae's are all mixed up in different posts, and I can't quote everything on my phone.

Alisae: I'll try to answer everything, but if I miss a question, just ask again. I can't switch back to a new page and then type again easily, and it deletes everything I type if I take too long. This forum needs some QoL updates for phones. Nobody uses desktops anymore.

Post #387

You discuss my RVS vote and say something about OMGUS. That was a joke. I voted you after you voted me and said 'OMGUS.'
Then you ask what you have to do with Cloud. At the time, you had voted Cloud. I thought Cloud was scummy, and you voting him at the time. I mentioned two players I agreed with so far, and you were one of them. It was a TR basis.

Post #388

You ask if I've ever changed my meta. My answer is yes. I could link you to games I do remember from other forums for every alignment (scum, town, third party, cult, 2nd scum team, etc) and you'd probably see that either my play was steady in all AI or looked more strong town than anything, regardless of AI. Honestly, the only 'meta' that stayed constant with me was that I was considered a strong enough player where I'd be NK'd very quickly as town, and as scum, town would start to say things like 'it's day 4 and he hasn't been NK'd yet, must be scum.' I couldn't change the meta of other players affecting me, so in that respect, it didn't change. Staying alive past a certain day phase = scum was not a fun meta to deal with, but they were almost always right.

Then you ask why I thought nobody else would pressure Uzi. Well, have they? I haven't seen anyone else pressure Uzi. I've only seen Titus/Sonia chainsaw defending him. They certainly didn't scum read me before I put my voice behind the Uzi questions, so what change fed? Was it that I said 'it's only fair' as a third party to that fight? That has to be a joke, because it sure isn't a good scum read. It's them reaching for something that isn't there. They're slinging shit into the wind in hopes that something sticks, but I don't believe they truly believe my post was scummy.

Did that answer everything Alisae or was there more? Wait.. The gladiator thing.

No, I didn't believe the Gladiator claim, and the fact that Titus claimed it was a regular role in Mafia means I scum read her ever more. I've played plenty of games with many different setups and absolutely stupid roles (mad scientist/tree stump comes to mind), but I've never once played a 'gladiator' game. Honestly, that claim makes me scum read him too, except it was so outlandish that it has to be taken as a joke. For anyone to truly believe it, they'd have to not know Mafia whatsoever (be brand new). Titus isn't that, so she was defending an outlandish claim in Eliburn for no legitimately good reason. I believe Titus may have said it to hopefully remove suspicion from Eliburn for fake claiming/lying. Lynch all liars used to be the policy here long ago. What changed?

[Tywin Lannister]

The reason she gives for her intial SR on you, Titus, looks bad. She said you haven't been evaluating the game I think, but the shift to a TR looks like it could be defensive.

The reason here Titus is interacting with me. Titus is evaulating me as scum. Titus is scum hunting. Titus is doing town things. Thus she gets my read as town.

Titus is not town.

I am town.

Lunching me or Titus will prove it. If we have a vigilante, please shoot the other one. If I get lynched, make sure to shoot Titus. You'll thank me later.

[Tywin Lannister]

Alisae, since you like meta, go check all my games. Every game I play in, I catch scum. My reads are almost always good. The scum I go after may not always get lynched right away, but when they do, I get proven right. So lynch me if you want idc tbh, but make sure to lynch/Vigi shoot Titus afterword. Trust me.

[Tywin Lannister]

The reason she gives for her intial SR on you, Titus, looks bad. She said you haven't been evaluating the game I think, but the shift to a TR looks like it could be defensive.

The reason here Titus is interacting with me. Titus is evaulating me as scum. Titus is scum hunting. Titus is doing town things. Thus she gets my read as town.

Why would I care if she's interacting with you? You could be her scum buddy. Titus is calling me scum, not you. So in calling me scum, she needs to ask me questions, not you. And now that you chainsaw HARD for Titus, I question if maybe you two are buddies. It surely isn't a townie move to not let her answer her own questions, let alone letting the focus go off of her.

[Tywin Lannister]

But you see how an outsider could also see scum!Alisae is being pushed by town!Titus and decides to attempt to divert Titus by giving her a TR?

Is there a particular reason you think townies don't like wall posts, or was it arbitrary/intuition?

pedit:AI means alignment indicative btw, not just alignment. Saw it used to mean just alignment in an earlier post too I think so pointing it out now.

Also you're blowing up the gladiator claim. Check the wiki, it's a possible role in this setup even though it's not an explicitly normal role. Titus claiming it's a regular role is NAI. I don't think Titus's moonbrain would take the claim seriously until she saw the mod confirm it, at least mine wouldn't
As far as I can tell Titus isn't lying

Townies (why only townies? Scum too) don't like walls because they don't like reading. This is a game about reading and intuition, so not liking it is an oxymoron. Don't play Mafia is you can't handle basic functions like reading and writing. This isn't charades.

Also, the gladiator role is not normal. Sorry. You can't turn a falsehood into a truth just by repeating it.

As for your first question, I'm not following what you're asking. Titus is leading the sheep. She isn't voting Alisae seriously. Alisae chainsaws for Titus pretty blatantly however.

As for your AI statement, I used it as Alignment and it was obvious. Why are you fighting semantics? I probably wrote it as AI by mistake, but who cares? It's obvious what my intent was.

[Tywin Lannister]

Sorry. That post WAS a bit defensive in nature. I don't like scum being defended by those sheeping them, and your post piled on with Alisae's. Don't think you are scum though. Sonia can call 432 'defensive' legitimately for once. That's a plus. I don't think she can use the term for the 'it's only fair' post though. It doesn't make sense in the context.

[Tywin Lannister]

I do want a 1 v1 Titus. You're scum and I'm not. I come out ahead no matter what. My flip only will incriminate you further. Please do.

[Tywin Lannister]

What was fabricates? Uzi? Okay, you can have that point. What questions did you ask me? You say right after that you don't 'need' west ions. I agree, since you are scum. You don't have a case at all and know it.

[Tywin Lannister]

The reason she gives for her intial SR on you, Titus, looks bad. She said you haven't been evaluating the game I think, but the shift to a TR looks like it could be defensive.

The reason here Titus is interacting with me. Titus is evaulating me as scum. Titus is scum hunting. Titus is doing town things. Thus she gets my read as town.

Why would I care if she's interacting with you? You could be her scum buddy. Titus is calling me scum, not you. So in calling me scum, she needs to ask me questions, not you. And now that you chainsaw HARD for Titus, I question if maybe you two are buddies. It surely isn't a townie move to not let her answer her own questions, let alone letting the focus go off of her.

Why do you think the read was directed towards you? Becuase it wasn't.

Then I misread it. My bad. I assumed it was directed toward me due to the wording and my post being quoted.

[Tywin Lannister]

Ugh am I misreading all these posts as being toward me? They are subsequently about me, especially when Alisae voted me. Who are these posts directed to then? I'm confused. Alisae quotes me, votes me, but doesn't give a reason and it apparently was directed toward Kyouko? Wth?

[Tywin Lannister]

I haven't seen anyone else pressure Uzi.

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

I stand corrected, but the context was about Uzi's vote (or non-removal after RVS) on Elibirn not being explained. I didn't see anyone in-thread support Elibirn's legitimate gripe, so I added my weight behind it. Apparently, that makes me scum according to Titus/Sonia. I don't understand how, but I'll accept it as a reason, however badly contrived it may be. Uzi didn't even give that to Elibirn at the time, so I believed it needed to be addressed. It still isn't satisfactory IMO, but it is A reason. Again, reasons should always be given. Alisae didn't give one for voting me. I believe that needs to be addressed as well.

Anyways Lapsa, you are right.

[Tywin Lannister]

You and I have very different definitions of a lair, Titus. Can you lay out why exactly you feel Tywin should be a major scum read of mine? As for Alisae; not discussing it right now; you don't see it.

Anyone who makes up what I said and when confronted with evidence it's not true doesn't back down.

VOTE: AJ

I'm still catching up, but I just noticed this. What 'evidence' did you post to prove I somehow lied?

Gladiator thing was null and not really part of my scum read of you aside from the fact that yes, you DID claim it was normal. Your claim is that you said it was real, but that's not how it fit in the context of those posts. The question was 'is gladiator a normal role' not 'is gladiator a real role.' You're shade throwing and completely full of it to even insinuate I lied there. You're pushing an insanely asinine read on me, because you don't have a case and never did. You never will, because I'm town. You will never be able to prove anything that is false, regardless of your terrible logic and emotional appeals to other players. It's quite the straw man. You trying to 'lead' town I to mislynches will ultimately be your downfall. You are scum and you know I'm on to you.

What was the other claimed lie? That you didn't ask me questions? I asked you to repeat them in a subsequent post, since I never once found any questions from you. Your response was to say 'but I did ask! You lie! Oh, but I don't need questions to read you.' That was it. You never ONCE reposted any questions, so without actual proof, I will continue to say you didn't. Following that, I propose to call you the liar here. You're lying about me and misrepresenting the entire sequence of events to twist into me being scummy. People aren't stupid and can read, unfortunately for you. Try again scum. Misrepresent some more. By your own definition, it means you're a liar yourself. Foot in mouth disease. i hope it isn't contagious.

[Tywin Lannister]

@TY,

628

Not on this page yet, but will get to it soon. The problem with calling someone a liar is you better be damn sure you can prove it, and you haven't, because I didn't. Also, don't post something as 'proof' that just so happens to be far after the fact and later than your continual posts calling me a liar. Nice misrepresentation, again. Scummy as fuck. You def aren't town. If you were, you'd read the game and use real logic instead of continuously pushing a mislynch on the person who calls you out.

[Tywin Lannister]

Clicked on your 628 post. Oddly enough, none of your links in that post work. Hmm. Looks like you again hope that nobody reads your lies. Scum tactic. Common scum mistake to push a wagon on a townie by trying to 'catch them' with gotcha moments, and barring that, to misrepresent the sequence of events in an attempt to throw shade their way. Most town won't go back and double check every post or thing you claim, so they assume it's true. The problem you have is that I remember the context of what happened. You literally had to go searching for things to respond with almost 10 pages later (looks like) than my accusation against you. Funny.

[Tywin Lannister]

I think you really, really don't like that I'm calling you out. Your personality is the type to want to take charge, but you can't lead the sheep when your integrity is called into question. Best get rid of the townie that does so, right? The problem you're really in is that when I flip, be it lynch or an NK by your scum team, it only incriminates you further. I'll gladly trade a 1 for 1 with scum, and I'd say you're strong scum who likes to throw her weight around. You can't bully everyone however, and so that's why you push me so hard

[Tywin Lannister]

Game is dead for almost half the day now. Lurkers have no excuse to not be caught up. Come on, hop in and DO SHIT.

Lol you sound like me. This game is moving extremely fast. 38 pages on Day 1 is a lot. I mean, I was halfway caught up last night before I had to leave for my work's holiday party, and i think I stopped somewhere between page 23-26 to respond to Titus' continuous claim that I lied (I didn't). Regardless, I left for the party and come back on today and it's now 12 more pages. Considering how most players don't like reading anything longer than a sentence, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them skip it all together and either quit or just go to the last page and post whatever. I'll read it all and catch up, but I have no such hopes that everyone will.

As a side note: THIS is why wall posts are better than 50 split posts. 36 pages looks more daunting to read than 10 or less pages of wall posts. People complain about walls, but then they post 30 times to say the one thing the wall could have.

[Tywin Lannister]

Like Alisae for instance seems to dislike wall posts, but she posts one sentence a damn post. Then writes a following post with another sentence. She splits questions up intended for the same player into multiple posts. It's absolutely ridiculous and bad form. It takes a shit ton of effort to quote multiple posts on a phone. Stop it. If you have questions for someone, put them all in the same post

[Tywin Lannister]

AJ picks the easiest players to call scum here. That's not a real analysis. He simply went with the two players most won't disagree with in a way that requires explaining. AJ hasn't done anything all game as far as I've seen, unless I missed something between the last 12 pages (will catch up soon regardless). The guy is skating by and is half-hearting these bs reads.

AJ: why am I scum? Why is Alisae scum? Why do you have two scum reads, but can't seem to get reads on more than half the game? Please explain all the reads you half heartedly slapped together.

[Tywin Lannister]

AJ picks the easiest players to call scum here. That's not a real analysis. He simply went with the two players most won't disagree with in a way that requires explaining. AJ hasn't done anything all game as far as I've seen, unless I missed something between the last 12 pages (will catch up soon regardless). The guy is skating by and is half-hearting these bs reads.

AJ: why am I scum? Why is Alisae scum? Why do you have two scum reads, but can't seem to get reads on more than half the game? Please explain all the reads you half heartedly slapped together.

"Can't get a good read" isn't true. I'm just a paranoid player and therefore don't like to have a townlist I don't trust.

I've discussed Alisae and you for scum. Until you respond there, I'm of no need to do your busy work. You either read it or you don't.

Furthermore it's completely on you not to be an 'easy target', aka someone who can be easily scum read. Alisae isn't necessarily that either, as certainly there's not exactly popularity for her lynch before I started discussing it. One vote on, from Nos in RVS. At peak, 3 votes on.

P-edit: Gamma's more suspect for what he HAS said, those 2 just haven't said much.

Being paranoid is fine, but it isn't when you specifically name two players as scum and ignore absolutely everyone else in the game. When I eventually flip town (and I WILL get lynched this game, because half the game is full of teenagers that don't know what they're doing, call things that aren't scummy as being scummy, and write 39 pages of almost completely useless content that frankly is annoying af), what will you do? If Alisae also flipped town, you'd be down two townies with absolutely zero reads. The few reads you did claim just now are at the very least half-wrong, so if both players are town, you're awful at this. Just saying.

Honestly, I have half a mind to just vote myself off just so I can get out of this clusterfuck of a game. These players have no idea what they're doing, and my role is worth Jack shit anyways. It bothers me that there are 39 pages on D1 and none of it is worth a damn. An extremely dedicated player could possibly sort through this mess to find the ONE diamond in all this crap, but I'm not that player. Adults write condensed posts with real content, but these people say one thing in 50 posts, post questions to the same person in multiple posts, and can't seem to gather any logical thought on what is truly going on. This game is depressing to play in tbh.

I just don't see much of a point to be active and read everything only to have to defend myself against illogical non-reasons. The only thing I've ever seen from anyone to call me scum is from one post where I said 'it's only fair' that Uzi answer Elibirn's question. That apparently was the scum tell of the century for these people, because they don't have a clue as to what scummy is or isn't. It's a joke. There's no defending against idiocy, and I can't change the minds of those who are either scum or just ignorant, so there's nothing to really be invested about in this game for me.

That's my $0.02. The only reason I even halfheartedly pay attention now is because it's disrespectful to not do so for the good players here. I see you guys, and I know you've complained about the speed of the game, useless ridalin-fueled posts, and illogical reasoning going on as well. I welcome you to vote me if you think I'm scum for absolutely no reason, but realize that when I do flip town, you followed like sheep without ever having a reason to do so. Bad wagons need to be addressed, but they never are by bad players. Mob mentality is one of the side-effects of Mafia, and mob mentality always sucks.

[Tywin Lannister]

Speaking as somebody who lived the life of a meta player for years: meta is only valid if the person in question does not know their tells. If a person is aware of their meta, it's useless.

+1. Thank you for recognizing this. I say it every game it seems, but meta is used way too much as reasons for votes in mafiascum. They're usually bad reasons.

That being said, Alisae is going hard defending Titus during the past couple pages up to this point. Why? Why do people TR Titus so much? Her trying to be town leader doesn't mean she's town. Her play is largely in-line for what I usually do as scum, which is attempt to be town leader and force mislynches. I still see her as the strongest scum read in the game. Alisae defending her tooth and nail is definitely bothering me though. Why is she doing it? Nero adds one vote to Titus and Alisae chainsaws HARD for Titus. Why?

[Tywin Lannister]

FYI: Titus is scum.

+1

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm getting the NES Classic the morning it launches.

It already launched a while ago?

[Tywin Lannister]

UNVOTE

VOTE TITUS

+1

[Tywin Lannister]

UNVOTE

VOTE TITUS

OK, caught up.

Town: Me, Sonia, Cloud.
Pro town: SSBm, Elibirn, Pine

Null: Cabd, AJ, Uzi, Nero, Gamma, Transcend, Nosferatu

Pos scum: Twin, Lapsa, Alisea

Scum: Titus.

I like this list, minus me on the scum side. I also don't think Lapsa is scum. He's been pushing for Titus all game, and his early wagon was definitely scum fueled IMO.

My list:

Town: Cabd, SSBM, Cloud, Nero

Pro Town: Elibirn (see Uzi below), Sonia, mozamis, Lapsa

Null: Transcend, Gamma, AJ, Pine

Pro scum: Alisae, Nosferatu, Uzi (Uzi or Elibirn could change sides based on the flip of the other)

Scum: Titus

I read more town than scum atm, which could be a product of good scum or lurking scum. Nosferatu could definitely go lower in my list, but mainly due to lack of content/lurking than anything he/she has posted. I largely forgot they were in the game. I think that means scum more than town.

Gamma not posting much could also mean the same. Without knowing his scum meta though (not that it matters, beyond a reference point), my gut reads town. I will need to look at the vote count as I catch up to see whose on his wagon, but if it's Titus-led, then I don't like it at all.

Transcend hasn't done much at all. Idk his meta, but he's not posting real content. Ever. Why is this okay? Why give him a free pass to post nothing useful, but call gamma scum for doing the same? It's ridiculous. I think people town read Transcend only due to being friends over actually evaluating his alignment.

Uzi/Elibirn: I dont like the gladiator claim, but apparently fake claims in mafiascum meta is okay. Elibirn doubled down on it when others took it as a joke, but it's largely null. I do think fake claims are scummy and idk why it's okay in mafiascum, but it is what it is. Uzi/Elibirn could be TvT, but I think one of them are scum. Idk which one, but Titus has weak associations with either one. Her entire scum claim on me was my 'it's only fair' post asking for Uzi to give his reasoning on voting Elibirn. Then again, Elibirn could be scum and Uzi town. Neither are a good lynch today, so this whole point is moot.

I think it's clear I want Titus lynched. Doubt I need to explain that further. She's been all over the place in trying to push bad wagons. She isn't suspicious enough of Alisae buddying her so hard. She tries to wave off votes on her as bad, but never addresses the reasons they are there, and she isn't genuinely evaluating things the way Alisae constantly claims. If so, then she has some really bad reads IMO. Unless Titus is always this bad at being town, then I'm pretty dead set with her being scum here.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Alisae: what will you do if Titus flips scum? Your entire game will be flipped upside down. Why in the world would you be so sure of anyone on D1? That's ridiculous.

[Tywin Lannister]

Town: Cabd, SSBM, Cloud, Nero

Pro Town: Elibirn (see Uzi below), Sonia, mozamis, Lapsa

Null: Transcend, Gamma, AJ, Pine

Pro scum: Alisae, Nosferatu, Uzi (Uzi or Elibirn could change sides based on the flip of the other)

Scum: Titus

Do you see Titus and Alisae as scum together and does Alisae's behavior affect your read on Titus at all? Can you explain why Nero is so high on your list?

I can definitely see it, albeit it being pretty improbable due to just straight bad play. Alisae would be extreme newbscum in that scenerio though, and Titus sure hasn't called her out for the blatant buddying. It's really bad, and any suspicious townie would call it out. Honestly, if I wasn't so sure Titus was scum, I'd just straight call Alisae scum and vote there. Buddying that bad on D1 isn't town play.

Does alisae's behavior affect my read on Titus? Yes, but only in slightly thinking Titus could be town and Alisae scum. I could definitely see Alisae/Titus scum team though, and without day talk, Titus can't reprimand Alisae for the blatant buddying. That will happen N1 IMO.

[Tywin Lannister]

Oh, and Nero is high on my list due to him being one of the very few (me/Lapsa/Nero?) in-game to really question or go after Titus and her motivations. She was being put on a pedestal by Alisae and Elibrin, and others were sheeping her. She's been going after bad wagons consistently, but when only a few players question it, then it's likely due to her being scum. Easy wagons are usually scum driven, and Titus has pushed them all.

[Tywin Lannister]

I change reads when I get more info Cloud. You were my first non-RVS vote. Am I not allowed to reevaluate?

[Tywin Lannister]

I change reads when I get more info Cloud. You were my first non-RVS vote. Am I not allowed to reevaluate?

Changing reads is fine, i was just wondering what made you change

Honestly? The lack of connections to my top scum reads in Titus/Alisae, plus a general townie vibe I've gotten from you after I originally voted. I just don't see you as scum now.

[Tywin Lannister]

Yep, Alisae is scum. If Titus isn't the lynch, I'll move there.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Gamma: why would I have a role that says 'this person is scum' on D1? What are you even asking? That's a really stupid question.

If you want to ask me something, ask why I think Titus is scum, then read my posts that have explained my SR. What is your intent with that question about my role?

[Tywin Lannister]

@Alisae: what will you do if Titus flips scum? Your entire game will be flipped upside down. Why in the world would you be so sure of anyone on D1? That's ridiculous.

Actually, asking you this. What will you do if Titus flips town?

Think I addressed this, but since you didn't read:

It doesn't change the fact that you're scum. It only would show my conf bias in ignoring you in favor of Titus. It actually makes me think it's a mistake to ignore you, since your blatant buddying is obv not town.

And did you answer my question yet? Or just deflect it back to me while sheeping Titus again?

[Tywin Lannister]

Since it's come up again I'll actually quote the wiki and link the page if you guys want to verify
"Mechanical changes which must be announced beforehand include:
Mafia may have daytalk without an Encryptor as long as it is announced in the game's rules beforehand."
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

We don't know if Mafia have an encryptor or not so we don't know if there's daytalk because the mod did not announce it. The mod is obligated to announce if there will be daytalk

without

an encryptor in a Normal Game.

Oh this changed since last time I played normals.

FWIW Cephrir does come fro the school of mods who used to enjoy daytalk; not sure if it's still the case but I'd call it more likely than not.

I really don't know what daytalk does to affect balance. Can you teach me?

Really? Why are you constantly asking asinine questions?

Okay, here's an example for you:

Titus is scum buddies with Alisae. Without day talk, Alisae is extreme newbscum and doesn't know to not buddy her scum team in-thread. She thinks that's how to play, but obviously Titus can't go and say 'hey Alisae, calm down there buddy, you'll get us both caught!' Without day talk, newbscum Alisae does what she does.

With day talk, the experienced scum would calm her the fuck down and try to minimize her mistakes.

[Tywin Lannister]

@ssbm: you ask why if I thought town Titus/scum Alisae was a possibility, why not vote Alisae. Mainly, I haven't switched because I want to be right with my conf bias that Titus is scum. Alisae is the low hanging fruit of the scum team IMO. Nobody will go out of their way to defend her if she had a wagon. They may for Titus. I COULD be wrong about one or the other, but I honestly don't believe both are town.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Gamma: why would I have a role that says 'this person is scum' on D1? What are you even asking? That's a really stupid question.

If you want to ask me something, ask why I think Titus is scum, then read my posts that have explained my SR. What is your intent with that question about my role?

You say your flip will incriminate Titus. Unless you have something in your role that does so, I don't believe you.
BTW your case on Titus is terrible.

Yet Titus' case on me is good? She said my post asking for Uzi to answer Elibrin's question and saying 'it's only fair' was the scum tell of the century. Really? Now that is fucking terrible, but a lot of you latched onto that as if it was legitimate. Do you even know what my case is? Why defend Titus without looking at what she's done? You're ISOing me a lot apparently, but ignoring others. Why?

[Tywin Lannister]

So you acknowledge there's a lower chance that Titus is scum than Alisae but still vote Titus? Alisae is the one buddying and sheeping Titus, not the other way around. I just don't understand how you can suspect both of them and decide Titus is the better lynch

I am allowed to choose the more illogical vote, but if you want better reasons, than look at Titus not calling Alisae out for it. She's called 4 players specifically as the 'scum team' and I know I'm town. I suspect the others in her SR list are also town. She pushes all bad wagons consistently and her play reminds me exactly of what I do as scum. I truly believe Titus is scum or I wouldn't vote her. Alisae is low hanging fruit. If Titus is scum, then the best lynch is to take her out first. Alisae isn't experienced enough to carry a scum win the same way as Titus might.

Again, why hasn't Titus called out Alisae? Any good townie would call out blatant buddying. Titus has not done so. She would only say 'Alisae is 80-90% town but but reasons for not 100%'. It's a way for her to have an out, but it was never real suspicion against Alisae. In my mind, Alisae could just be VI that doesn't know what she's doing. Her inexperience largely leaves me to ignore her over bigger fish like Titus.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Alisae: Why would any competent scum ever bus each other day 1? That makes no sense. Town mislynch people all on their own. Bussing doesn't have to happen ever in a game, but if it is to be done, it's optimal to do it later on when a big play can make/break the game. I doubt competent scum would truly bus each other D1 except when there is a wagon that won't be stopped and it's convienent to hop on it for town cred. It's a flailing move more than real strategy in that case, kinda like how you're flip flopping with your Titus read after the focus goes to you being scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

Again, why hasn't Titus called out Alisae? Any good townie would call out blatant buddying. Titus has not done so. She would only say 'Alisae is 80-90% town but but reasons for not 100%'. It's a way for her to have an out, but it was never real suspicion against Alisae. In my mind, Alisae could just be VI that doesn't know what she's doing. Her inexperience largely leaves me to ignore her over bigger fish like Titus.

I'll answer this. If she flips scum she'll get the town to lynch a townie. Because scum know who town are naturally. I basicly set myself up to be the person she can easily fall back on to be called scum.

I don't get your point here. 1 for 1 town/scum is great for town. If a lynch on me confirmed scum on someone else, I'd take it, especially on D1. But that's also not what you're saying. You're saying if she's scum, you were town that she liked buddying her. Well you've been doing it blatantly, and now you're flipping the script? Either Titus is town or she is scum, but if she is scum, why would you have ever buddied her so strongly? If town, what does that say about you? You surely wouldn't know she's town unless you were scum. See how this works? Buddying is always bad for town, at least on D1 without hard PR evidence.

[Tywin Lannister]

Titus nothing works by pairing me with anyone, because I'm town and always will be town. Sorry to burst your bubble here, but you truly have terrible reads. I hope that will show everyone in the future to never trust you in any position of town leadership. You really are bad at this.

[Tywin Lannister]

I mean for a player like Titus to SR 4 players as a scum team and conf bias everything in hopes of proving it... On day 1.... Jesus Christ that's terrible play. I can't believe that Titus is considered a good townie if this is usual stuff for her. I truly believe it must be scum driven, because it's just baaaaad

[Tywin Lannister]

Hey Tywin, remember those times when I chainsawed and you thought I was scum for it but then we were both town? good times.

How would you defend your townreads?

@SSBM

Spoiler:

Who is the chick so I can go look her up

This response to Tywin is off. :/ Doesn't feel like arms length deal. Too chummy.

To be fair to Alisae, her only other game I'm aware of was a newbie one with me in it. We won as town, but were scum reading each other all game long.

[Tywin Lannister]

Gamma, you're scummy for ignoring Titus and focusing your entire attention on townies.

[Tywin Lannister]

I do have to admit, the gladiate, if real, neuters my vca too...

This is horrible. VCA still works with gladiation.

No. It really doesn't. I have been reading through here and every post here is theory and a good chunk is wrong. VCA centers on the choices made. Gladiation artificially removes choices from the game, limiting data points.

Since I am making a post educating you, here's what you need for a good VCA

1) Every vote count colored, without bias of town by play
2) A scum flip not caused by a guilty/gladiator
3) 3 days of data to work with
4) A good understanding of optimal town and scum play
5) The ability to filter a VI.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I will get back to reading. If I only see more bad theory spec that makes me rip my hair out, I will be annoyed.

Jesus Christ, pot meet kettle.

Titus is the player that called 4 players the scum team and conf biases everything over her bad theory in hopes of proving it right somehow. It's the definition of a bad theory, yet she has the nerve to call out Gamma? Wow. Misplaced fucking ego that is.

[Tywin Lannister]

What lie? Omg you're seriously the most full of shit player I've seen on these forums. What lie? You throw that word around a lot, but you are completely full of it and have no ability to pull your head out of it. It's really irritating to have someone call another a liar without reason or actual thought. You are a real train wreck when your flaws are pointed out. I'll be really glad when you're lynched. You can take the liar thing to the dead thread. You're the real liar here.

[Tywin Lannister]

Titus still ISOing me with lots of fake claims. When I flip town, what then? Oh, I guess it's off to her other 3 scum in her bad theory. How many mislynches do scum need to win? Titus would love to get those, cuz she isn't evaluating the game from a perspective that I could be town. Otherwise, she'd know better than to base everything on a link with me and others. That's just really bad play. Unless Titus is always a bad player when town, then I highly suspect it comes from scum motivations. She is only wrong due to being scum and thus it's the best she can work with. It all naturally is false, so it isn't bad play from scum perspective. From a townie perspective though, she's anti-town at best. Her theory of 4 scum, while conf biasing every post I make as a connection to scum/town pre-flip is just idiotic. Is she always this bad @meta lovers? Seriously, it's not a townie move. I truly have to believe it's scum motivated, because it destroys her cred as a player otherwise.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Tywin, Being town and being honest are good steps to my townread.

Now off to grab the RVS mega wagons to revamp my theory.

Why would I put any stock into your TRs when I think you're scum? My alignment doesn't magically flip back and forth based on whether you decide I'm town or not. You're theory is bad. Town lynch 1 day at a time. You can't find 4 scum on D1. It just won't happen, and if/when any of your reads flip town, your whole theory goes to shit. I don't see you as a bad player, so purposely using a bad theory and blatantly pushing it so hard must be scum motivated. I legitimately can't see any other reason to justify it.

[Tywin Lannister]

BTW your case on Titus is terrible.

What about my case?

Don't really care

Gamma scum buddies with Titus, or Titus is town and Gamma trying to earn TCred from her? He hasn't looked at her at all. Not even one post, yet calls her town. His only town read. Odd.

[Tywin Lannister]

What? This looks wrong. When did I vote Alisae? I need to reread. That looks wrong to me. I'm pretty sure my vote was on Cloud the whole time until Titus.

[Tywin Lannister]

Nvm Alisae was my RVS

[Tywin Lannister]

Titus really is bad at this. She's analyzing RVS votes now. This is like by-the-book bad townie play. Is she really this bad as town? Someone answer me. Who knows her town meta? Is it always bad? I mean wow.

Unless she's known as a bad player who uses bad theories and asinine reasons like RVS to form scum teams on D1, then she is scum.

I wonder if I repeat it over and over then someone will listen already. Does it really have to take my flip for people to listen in this game? If so, I'll vote myself. Idk how to get others to listen at this point. People choose to be blind. If voting me equals Titus is eventually caught, plz do so. I'll hammer myself, but Jesus she's obvious. Stop being stupid town. Titus is scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

Does a Tywin lynch mean others will finally call Titus into question?

Everyone answer me. Stop defending her terrible play. Idc if you're friends. It's bad, and it's bad on purpose.

Titus is scum. I will vote myself off if it gets her investigated or lynched or something other than players like Gamma calling her town.

[Tywin Lannister]

Titus is the player that called 4 players the scum team

Also listing 4 scumreads does not make them the scumteam. There are always nulls involved that could be scum and I don't recall her specifcally saying scumteam ever

Stop defending bad play. Stop it. It's infuriating.

[Tywin Lannister]

What am I at? L1 or close to it? I'm a straight up vanilla townie. To be exact, there isn't even a vanilla in there. It's just 'townie.'

To answer Sonia: there are 50+ pages on D1. You say I missed your post? Well no shit? I can't reply to 50 pages worth of garbage and hope to find one diamond in the rough. It will literally take HOURS of reading. You can forget that. I'm not gonna do it after seeing very few of you truly evaluating the game if you think I'm scum. I say it over and over again, and I will keep saying it until I'm lynched and flip town. Titus is scum. Remember that after I'm

50 pages is too much to have any say here. It's a shit show right now full of fluff and bad posts. Nobody knows a damn thing with all this useless posting. It shows that nobody is even attempting to sit and think about what's what. 50 pages means D1 is a wash. Way to go town. You'll get a mislynch on D1 and no info out of it. Titus will use that to her advantage to get anyone else who claims she is scum as the next few day's mislynches, because a lot of you seem to be sheep here. It's ridiculous, but I don't see anything changing with 50 pages of useless posting going on. It's really bad and completely demoralizing. I had almost all weekend off, and I can't keep up with this thread. Do none of you have responsibilities or jobs? There are multiple players complaining on this thread about the length and the insane amount of posts. It's not a good thing for town. Scum can and do hide in shit show threads like this.

Anyway, again, I am town. Titus is scum. Take from that what you will after I'm lynched.

[Tywin Lannister]

I wish I even knew what the case against me was, but I honestly don't know. I don't think there ever was a real case, but with so many posts, any questioning of it can be ignored and nobody notices. You just have sheep joining the wagon without thought. I am convinced of that due to how many posts with little to no content that have been made on this DAY ONE thread. It's seriously ridiculous. Think about things before posting useless crap in the future. Do it for the sanity and morale of any adults with life responsibilities. 50 pages is like Day 3-4, not day 1. Just saying.

/rant

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm asking you to answer my post as you made a giant case on me and I went from sr number 2 to pro town
that's the annoying part
UNVOTE:

Do me a favor. Repost it or give a post # or page #. I don't even know where it is. I have to go to work, but I'll try to respond during a break or lunch if I'm not hammered by then. At least realize the amount of posts here and try to be a bit more understanding. If forgetting or not seeing questions in such a large thread means scum, then more than half the players in the game are scum right now.

[Tywin Lannister]

FWIW I'm not voting for Tywin today. He's very obviously frustrated railroaded town.

Shame on those of you that are taking him as scum. He can be town who found scum-titus or town that mistook town-titus for scum titus but the frustration and emotion is genuine town with a capital T.

Tywin, let's chat real quick. A large part of your Titus case is that the logic Titus is using is so ~wrong~ it has to come from scum, right?

I have a couple min, so I'll respond here. Can't read it all, and Sonia, I think your post deserves a longer look than I have atm, but I'll do it when I get a chance in a few hours or so.

Cabd: pretty much, yes. I see Titus as a strong player, so her using really bad theories, constantly repeating this 'liar!' theme, her jumping back and forth to whomever seems like an easy target, and generally refusing to even think about whether or not these players she calls scum may be town (which would derail her entire theory and 'scum hunting' efforts) just looks so bad that it must be from scum. That's my belief. It's day 1 and she's railroading 4 specific players into a scum team she fabricated without any reasoning, and the real aspect of it is that maybe 2 players get subbed in or out solely based on me being scum. So when I flip town, everything she's done in the game becomes useless. That doesn't look like a townie truly trying to sort anyone. I just don't see it.

[Tywin Lannister]

FWIW I'm not voting for Tywin today. He's very obviously frustrated railroaded town.

Shame on those of you that are taking him as scum. He can be town who found scum-titus or town that mistook town-titus for scum titus but the frustration and emotion is genuine town with a capital T.

Tywin, let's chat real quick. A large part of your Titus case is that the logic Titus is using is so ~wrong~ it has to come from scum, right?

I have a couple min, so I'll respond here. Can't read it all, and Sonia, I think your post deserves a longer look than I have atm, but I'll do it when I get a chance in a few hours or so.

Cabd: pretty much, yes. I see Titus as a strong player, so her using really bad theories, constantly repeating this 'liar!' theme, her jumping back and forth to whomever seems like an easy target, and generally refusing to even think about whether or not these players she calls scum may be town (which would derail her entire theory and 'scum hunting' efforts) just looks so bad that it must be from scum. That's my belief. It's day 1 and she's railroading 4 specific players into a scum team she fabricated without any reasoning, and the real aspect of it is that maybe 2 players get subbed in or out solely based on me being scum. So when I flip town, everything she's done in the game becomes useless. That doesn't look like a townie truly trying to sort anyone. I just don't see it.

Okay so.. what if I told you that titus is known for making absolutely no sense whatsoever from the outside perspective; as town? Like... is so well known for it around here that she has a custom moderator-granted user title honoring that fact? I know it's not "ideal town play" as you and I see it, but play this game is internally consistent with Titus logic. (And no, throwing your hands up and wanting to die doesn't count as a response; you're stuck in this thing with me like it or not)

If that is the case, then maybe she is town and I need to reevaluate. I asked for some kind of meta about her I think multiple times when writing my thoughts about her theories, but they've been ignored until this post. She sounds very aware of this meta about her though, so why continue it? She may be able to manipulate it to look her normal 'town' self while being scum. Nero pointed out similarities between her last scum game with him and this one, so I'm not completely sold on her being town, but I will take it into consideration and focus elsewhere for now. I still get massive scum vibes from her, but you being one of my top TRs saying this gives it weight IMO.

[Tywin Lannister]

3. Sonia pops up out of nowhere, sheep's Titus by calling me scum, and her reason is also sheeped by giving her reason as my 'it's only fair' statement. Zero originality there. That's some blatant sheeping going on.



Sonia: why haven't you asked me any questions? Also, why did you sheep Titus exactly to the T? Do you have no original thought? I find that sheep on atrocious reasonings are almost always scum. What do you think? Also, when ssbm_Kyouko pointed out your blatant buddying with Titus in post #400, you came back in #407 calling him 'not town' for no reason. It was another OMGUS shade throw with zero follow through. You haven't followed any lead or anything you claim to be scummy with any actual questions whatsoever. Also, you claim my post #303 is 'scummy as fuck.' Please explain what in it is scummy. You said it was overly defensive and manipulative. What was I defensive about? Who was I defending against? How does that make any sense whatsoever? I joined in with Elibirn to get Uzi to answer why he thought Elibirn was scum. He never gave a good reason, but regardless, what was there for me to be defensive about? I wasn't being attacked, so why call it defensive? Also, how was it manipulative in a scummy way? Do you know what 'scummy' even is, or only when you're town and not using contrived reasoning to throw shade on players? Why are you chainsaw defending Uzi here? You AND Titus both highly dislike Uzi being questioned. Both of you have attacked me now over me forcing Uzi to answer a basic question. Neither of you seem to have any real questions for me though. Now THAT is 'scummy as fuck' (to quote your own words).

Okay you're clearly not reading the thread what so ever you need a bit more coffee I came back in the day having to catch up I saw your post that I disliked (get to that in a moment) and I called you out on it also I said your post was scummy but the thing you forgot to address was I said I liked your other posts that's why I didn't vote you because that was the only post I had a bit of trouble with I wasn't sheeping Titus I didn't even see her call you scum I don't even know what post ssbn called me out on the post in question you were defending yourself it was over defensive on your actions like "don't look at me it isn't my fault on this!" I don't ever omgus unless it's for a joke purpose "how does it make sense" you ask because it makes sense what type of question is that Also I'm not defending Uzi I don't have a read on him what I AM doing is calling out your shitty reasoning in that post I know what scumhunting and being scummy is smart one I don't have a question for you because there's nothing to be asked would you like some RQS? I saw a post I disliked and I commented it you clearly don't even know what sheeping is just because 2 players dislike a post doesn't make it sheeping buddy

it's a bit of a mess cause I just typed my thoughts out.
I do think Tywin is obv town btw

On a 10 min break RN with a couple min left, so if I don't answer all of this RN, give me time.

I saw your posts after the fact saying you basically disliked only that one post, but in the context of the time frame, I don't believe you said those things previous to my post above. Due to that, I thought you were just sheeping a bad read from Titus. While I still don't agree that my original post was scummy, I understand that you/others might have so I'll just grant the point. Idk what to say beyond that though, because I really don't agree with it being scummy in the first place. It seems like a grasp at straws in my biased opinion.

Look at it through the lens of my perspective, knowing I'm town, and what would you say there? If I grasped onto a post that you found nothing wrong with and called it scummy, what would your response be? Add to that and say I agreed with a player you thought was scum. In the context of that, prior to your follow up posts, would you possibly have insinuated there may be a connection? I've since moved you to a TR, but at the time, I saw it as sheeping already bad reasoning. Granted, I still don't see that posts as scummy, so the reasoning behind it made me assume there was something more there than there may have been. Make sense?

[Tywin Lannister]

Titus: Ignoring tywin's positions in regards to you/your posts; what else is in your case? Lay that out and see if what is left is still convincing to you; and to others?

Cabd, Tywin's ISO is nearly excusively lying about me/AJ, slipping Gamma is town (one post only), and trying to fake towntell. There is no way to divorce the lies and case him. That's removing his entire ISO.

This is complete misrepresentation of me, purposely, and in your own description of what lying is, you are doing it right here. Due to this, you should lynch yourself. The case you have against me is clearly mirrored from your own play.

All joking aside, I think you're seriously misjudging the entire game to the point where you're unable to look past me no matter what. When I flip town, you'll still claim some stupid excuse as if what you are claiming about me was somehow true and it's MY fault you are blinded by your own conf bias. That's exactly how these things go, and I'm completely certain that it's what will happen here. You'll spout off all this crap you misrepresent me on and claim the same false narrative even after I flip town, and that is what's going to piss me off more than anything. You won't learn a thing from my flip, and then you'll drone on and on apparently in every game you play with the same illogical, and completely fabricated cases no matter what the outcome. I don't agree with your play style in any case, and if it were someone else you railroaded into being scum regardless of evidence to the contrary, I'd count you off as a detriment to town and/or scum. Anti-town isn't any better than being actual scum, because you'll go against your win con just to feel justified in your obvious mislynches. Your entire theory is based around a townie being scum. I really will try to listen to Cabd and pretend that your play is normal for you as town, but it's seriously not going to go well for you when I do flip. You'll have no legitimate reads and your case will look completely fabricated (since it is).

[Tywin Lannister]

That being said, I will look elsewhere and let others sort this mess however they see fit. I will even agree to my own lynch if it somehow helps town get info, but if the info is only to see that Titus is railroading a townie and completely blinded by conf bias, then I don't see the point.

@Titus: what will you do if/when I flip town? What information will you have gained? What backup plan do you have if I'm a mislynch? Do you have one, or are you positive I'm scum? If you're positive, and I flip town, then what happens? Will you agree that you railroaded a towbie for no reason and that it looks extremely scummy on your part? Be honest. There's no way you're 100% certain, but if so, then I truly wonder what you'll say/do after I flip town.

[Tywin Lannister]

Yo
I came to 30 pages and I tryharded my way through
You can do the same.

I caught up with 30 pages last night, then went to bed and there's another 15 when I woke up. I'm not caught up past like page 36 or something. This game is moving too fast for even my liking, and I hate dead/slow games. It went way past the sweet spot long ago. I'm guessing pine will replace out too.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin, This is again, why you need to die. There is not a single misrepresentation in my entire ISO. You said I asked you no questions. That was wrong. You were shown it was wrong. You doubled down on the fiction. You're also immediately discrediting any kind of post I make. Your posts with Uzi felt fake. You tried to create the impression i thought it was a mega scumtell. (Tone isn't a scumtell, just an indicator). Until you actually tell the truth and do analysis, you need to die.

Given the extremely low likelihood of you being capable of such, given your likely pm, there is not much to say here. Either you lie and die, or be honest and live. No less than 3 players see you as a known liar (me, Gamma, and ssm) so your attempts to paint me as wrong/bad/lying/scum will not work.

I question whether you know what facts are or aren't, and you use feelings as if they are facts. Your feelings are wrong, your facts are wrong, and even when asked what you'll do if I flip town, you claim I'm useless and still worth killing. You're past the point of redemption and just became a policy lynch where I come from. You admit to being anti-town and you're not trying to win under a town win con. That's clear.

[Tywin Lannister]

Ok, Captain Planet is here to clean up this toxic thread. I will shut up about Titus, and do my best to ignore further... Whatever. Cabd gets my TLeader nomination for even trying to mediate it. Scum would be more than happy to let this fester, especially if it's TvT (which neither Titus or I think it is).

Still at work, but will give updated reads when I get a chance to really catch up again. I have about 15 pages to read it looks like, and I skimmed most of the previous 30 as well. Even if Titus is scum, she's not the only one, so it's a pointless venture to keep it going until one of us (probably me) gets lynched. Town will be no closer to finding the other scum, and so I think even keeping this 1v1 with Titus up would be anti-town on my part. I'll drop it.

[Tywin Lannister]

I don't like AJ's post above. I personally don't find him all that townie to begin with, so idk how he believes him or Elibrin deserve town leadership roles. You guys aren't confirmed, and you're not super town enough to even assume that role. Adding Titus is clearly not my cup of tea, but even if you believe her town, she wants to mislynch town. Therefore, Idk what you're hoping for AJ, but it certainly shouldn't happen. Maybe on a day or two 'if' you're cleared by a PR, but right now? You're that confident in Elibrin/Titus? Hmmmm....

[Tywin Lannister]

He's clear to me.

Basically, he's saying if Tywin's a town idiot we can carry him and put him on ignore and hopefully not reach the point of policy lynching him.

No, egotistical moron, he said you're the town idiot who has a meta of being a town idiot in all your games, and it's so bad that mod's have officially named you as such. You're so blind that you think it's cool. You're pissed off that someone DARED call out your flawless logic and completely rational emotional appeals, so clearly that person must not just be scum, but worthless, and idiot, what else can you slander me with? You're a bad player and it's obvious. You basically think it's okay to win by frustrating others so much with your complete lack of adaptability, stubborn/ignorant reads, and slanderous false accusations that they want to quit or give up. You've now even fucking insulted me personally twice outside of the game. If you are scum, nobody will ever respect you for this kind of play, and if you're town, you're extremely bad at it. I can't stand egotistical morons. You don't have a right to treat others as if you are better than them in any way, because you're so blind that you think you've been playing well. You insulting me on top of all of this is the most classless thing possible. You're trashy as fuck.

[Tywin Lannister]

And fuck this. I'm not gonna be personally insulted anymore. VOTE: Tywin Lannister

I'm absolutely disgusted with anyone who thinks Titus' play is acceptable. Real classy. Consider me officially checked out. I've been insulted personally enough to hope I never see that player again. That's not acceptable play no matter what. Lynch me plz. See where her play gets you all.

[Tywin Lannister]

Priceless, because it's okay to insult someone so much that they finally check out and do it back? Hmm. Yep, priceless. Have fun children. This is a game, but when someone takes it too far and it stops being a game to them, then that's where I say fuck off and peace out.

[Tywin Lannister]

VOTE: Titus

She's clearly scum, and that post about 'not needing all townies' to lynch a townie is scummy as fuck. She doesn't care about lynching town, because she is scum. She thinks her play is good, because she is following her scum win con by making townies so frustrated and pissed off that they quit. How's that case for you? Read her posts and tell me she's town. Only her buddies would ever claim otherwise. It's scummy as fuck for Gamma to claim she's town and defend her for this shit she's been posting. I think a few town even see it now. Forget her meta and look at it right here, right now. Does she feel town? If not, then why not vote her? Are you worried about getting bullied and flamed as well, or what is it?

[Tywin Lannister]

The fact is, she knows I'm town and still wants 'to kill me' and thinks 'I need to die.'

Now idk about mafiascum after all the old players like me quit 8 years ago, but saying those specific words instead of 'lynch' is a HUGE scum tell. Scum say 'kill' and 'die' while town say 'lynch.'

Also, since there apparently is day talk, this agreement between AJ/Titus/Gamma is scummy as fuck. They're literally cheering her on when she flames me and claims she's okay with lynching town. That's so scummy that honestly, town deserves to lose if she lives through the day. She's scum and has outed herself. Gamma/AJ are also probably scum. At least one of them is. The other is a weak-willed sheep and/or a child to cheer on disrespectful play and a lynch of a townie. Making someone want to quit due to flaming them isn't good play, so why are they cheering? It's against their win con if town, so what's the deal? Oh right, there are actual scum in this game, and it's not me.

Titus has gunned for me ever since I claimed she was scum. She's been irrational, disrespectful, harassing/flaming me, and basically making it so that I'm either so pissed off or so demoralized that I quit. That's her game plan. It's scummy as fuck. Town don't do that to other town. Figure that out already. Town DO NOT do this to other town. It is a scum move. She is scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm cheering because you're a hypocrite. And I have a TR on both Titus and AJ fyi
I do love all these idiots shouting "town v town!" though.

We all know how good you are with killing townies Gamma.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm cheering because you're a hypocrite. And I have a TR on both Titus and AJ fyi
I do love all these idiots shouting "town v town!" though.

We all know how good you are with killing townies Gamma.

Hey, you're dying now. Last reads. Assume I am town and scum. Give reasons.

I don't assume your town, because your play has been anti-town the entire game.

Your scum because you're successfully fucking over the town and fulfilling your win con. You flamed me so much that I basically quit, and you knew I was a townie the whole time. The fact that you kept claiming how you don't need all town to 'kill' me and that you didn't care that I was town is completely in-line with scum win con. It's against a town win-con in every way, and you refused to settle things. You just added more and more unnecessary and extremely insulting barbs in hopes of what just happened, happened. It's obvious you're scum, and one way or the other, people will see it. They may lose due to it, but that's inherently the problem with being a vanilla townie. You can't affect the game much when town refuse to listen. One scum can fuck over a lot of town in a game with 60 pages of shit. Good job, but I will never respect the play style you chose. It's disrespectful and not within the guidelines or spirit of the game. Flaming or frustrating someone so much that they can't enjoy the game is not a good thing, and it may get you banned one day. I realize it's a tactic as scum, but you straddle the line.

[Tywin Lannister]

He's clear to me.

Basically, he's saying if Tywin's a town idiot we can carry him and put him on ignore and hopefully not reach the point of policy lynching him.

No,

egotistical moron

, he said you're the town idiot who has a meta of being a town idiot in all your games, and it's so bad that mod's have officially named you as such.

You're so blind that you think it's cool.

You're pissed off that someone DARED call out your flawless logic and completely rational emotional appeals, so clearly that person must not just be scum, but worthless, and idiot, what else can you slander me with? You're a bad player and it's obvious. You basically think it's okay to win by frustrating others so much with your complete lack of adaptability, stubborn/ignorant reads, and slanderous false accusations that they want to quit or give up. You've now even fucking insulted me personally twice outside of the game. If you are scum, nobody will ever respect you for this kind of play, and if you're town, you're extremely bad at it. I can't stand egotistical morons. You don't have a right to treat others as if you are better than them in any way, because you're so blind that you think you've been playing well. You insulting me on top of all of this is the most classless thing possible.

You're trashy as fuck

.

Hey. Does the bold not look like flaming?

Takes two to tango, except one person got defended, while another got attacked. One person did it all game and continually did it even after it was attempted to stop. I may be a hypocrite for partaking, but I didn't start this nor will I continue to take it passively. Defend her all you like, but it takes two, and you're a hypocrite for failing to acknowledge that.

[Tywin Lannister]

Sigh.. Okay.. Cigarette and long drive home made me realize that regardless of semantics, I allowed myself to be emotionally compromised in a game where that is the goal of scum. They love what has been happening, even thrive on it, so I'm playing the anti-town VI by allowing it and feeding into it. That's my fault and I should acknowledge that. Regardless of what's been said, I shouldn't say anything back. It's not hard to ignore a slot if I stop feeding into it, so until I'm told otherwise, that's going to be my plan.

Regarding Gamma, from what I've seen from his past meta, he usually doesn't lurk this hard, and he seems more unbiased when town. As it stands, he fed into things by quoting my retaliation posts and calling me the culprit while defending Titus hard. He says we are both TRs, but he wants me gone badly. Unless he is close friends with Titus, he may be scum hoping for more discord. Townie Gamma wouldn't want to feed into it, but his posts in the past few pages clearly had that intent. When confronted by that fact, he claims he's not partaking. I think that's obviously not true, so I more question the motivations for it. Why is he wanting to feed the fire?

Taking into account his extreme lurking and a pretty big shift from what i know of his townie meta, I think he may be a scum slot. Sonia is clearly town, but when she called Gamma out for his play, hesays 'caught scum.' He's repeatedly been dropping his willingness to lynch her, and it's just out of place and not in-line with real townie thought.

SSBM also seems like possible scum here as well. He's definitely not playing the same as he does when town. I'd have to read more of his meta for both alignments to solidify/disregard that statement, but that's how it feels to me. AJ also doesn't sit well with me one bit based on his post wanting Cabd, Elibrin, him, and Titus to be a 'multi-headed town leader.' It's day 1 and nobody is cleared right now. In fact, there are only a couple really strong TRs right now, and even those aren't technically cleared. Why is AJ claiming to basically 100% know Elibrin, Titus, and Cabd are town? That's the only reason he'd even think to offer a town alliance on day 1. A cop could try this after an investigation or two (far more subtly obviously), but on day 1? That doesn't sound like a suspicious townie to me. AJ is suspect IMO.

I'm ignoring my top SR slot as already mentioned. So I won't build any connections there outside of my thoughts on Gamma using the flame war to his advantage.

[Tywin Lannister]

Serious question to everyone: if I get lynched and flip town, will that possibly make you reevaluate any TR you have on Titus? Pushing hard for my lynch seems to be her entire D1 MO, so if it succeeds and I flip, will reads change based on that? Will any info be gained? I assume my current status is a town distraction, so I'm wondering if my lynch will help town in some way for the future? I've already claimed, so not being a PR generally means it won't hurt town too badly to mislynch me of all the slots. They happen all the time on D1, so losing a VT shouldn't hurt too much.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm cheering because you're a hypocrite. And I have a TR on both Titus and AJ fyi
I do love all these idiots shouting "town v town!" though.

Nvm, maybe you didn't TR me. I saw this originally and didn't see the AJ part. I thought you said 'I have a town read on both of you.' Guess you caught me in another lie /s

You TR Titus and AJ I guess. Looks odd to me. I SR them both. You included. Funny. Who are the idiots you mentioned claiming TvT?

And I'll repeat my question: if I get lynched and flip town, will your reads change?

[Tywin Lannister]

Serious question to everyone: if I get lynched and flip town, will that possibly make you reevaluate any TR you have on Titus? Pushing hard for my lynch seems to be her entire D1 MO, so if it succeeds and I flip, will reads change based on that? Will any info be gained? I assume my current status is a town distraction, so I'm wondering if my lynch will help town in some way for the future? I've already claimed, so not being a PR generally means it won't hurt town too badly to mislynch me of all the slots. They happen all the time on D1, so losing a VT shouldn't hurt too much.

Not really. Her push on you is solid from what I've seen. She's not grasping for anything.

Can you explain her case? What is it?

[Tywin Lannister]

You have lied about her not asking you questions. That's the main one I remember seeing that she pointed out too.

Do you know what the lies were about? Do you know the context of it? Did you not see my explaination, or even did you see her post 'I don't need to ask you questions to read you' when I asked her to repeat them? Did you see her post about 10 pages after that in which she does apparently post her questions, yet the links don't work? Have you paid any attention to that, or are you sheeping reasons you don't really remember? How is that sorting? Do you expect everyone to know every question posed to them in a 60+ page D1 thread?

[Tywin Lannister]

You have lied about her not asking you questions. That's the main one I remember seeing that she pointed out too.

Do you know what the lies were about? Do you know the context of it? Did you not see my explaination, or even did you see her post 'I don't need to ask you questions to read you' when I asked her to repeat them? Did you see her post about 10 pages after that in which she does apparently post her questions, yet the links don't work? Have you paid any attention to that, or are you sheeping reasons you don't really remember? How is that sorting? Do you expect everyone to know every question posed to them in a 60+ page D1 thread?

It wasn't 60 pages back then.
I'll look back over, but this is more for your alignment than hers.

So you're saying you were caught up back then, yes? How would you know how many pages it was when you haven't caught up until a few pages ago?

[Tywin Lannister]

You have lied about her not asking you questions. That's the main one I remember seeing that she pointed out too.

Do you know what the lies were about? Do you know the context of it? Did you not see my explaination, or even did you see her post 'I don't need to ask you questions to read you' when I asked her to repeat them? Did you see her post about 10 pages after that in which she does apparently post her questions, yet the links don't work? Have you paid any attention to that, or are you sheeping reasons you don't really remember? How is that sorting? Do you expect everyone to know every question posed to them in a 60+ page D1 thread?

It wasn't 60 pages back then.
I'll look back over, but this is more for your alignment than hers.

So you're saying you were caught up back then, yes? How would you know how many pages it was when you haven't caught up until a few pages ago?

I know the question I saw was asked much earlier than page 60.

So you should've been caught up, right? If it's only 30 pages, that's not much is it? It's not 60, so that means her point was right and there's no way I could've missed her questions? You were caught up at the time? I mean, how would you have seen it and SR me ever since then if you weren't even caught up to those posts? You technically shouldn't have SR'd me at all until like a page ago based on your excuses of not being caught up the entire game. What gives?

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm sick with the flu right now (not sure how considering I got a flu shot a few months ago), so I'm not caught up past page 50 or something... But why would anyone claim there is an SK in the game on D1? What brilliant mind made up that idea?

Traitor/survivor also doesn't matter until one alignment or the other is winning. So why the assumption that Alisae is any of these things? Again, it's Day 1. I'll try to catch up and find why anyone would even mention those roles instead of just calling them scum, but I believe a day talk scum team would be far more interested in sorting a Survivor/Traitor/SK than any townie ever would right now. I feel like I need to mention that it's Day 1 again. Town looks for scum, at least until they can confirm multiple NKs after N1. Scum may look for 3rd party in Alisae, but I can't see town having a reason to do so.

Back to reading though... I slept all day and can't anymore, so I mine as well catch up.

[Tywin Lannister]

Ok, I'm caught up for the most part. I skimmed here and there, but it took an hour and a half to go from page 50ish to 80, so I feel like everyone skims in this game.

A couple people moved up/down my reads list, and for different reasons.

Scummiest players: Nosferatu, Lapsa, Lil Uzi, ssbm_kyouko

Nosferatu: lurking badly, yet only a couple of players have even mentioned Nosferatu all game. Scum lurkers tend to not be called out on D1, since obviously town forget they exist, and scum don't want to draw attention to it. It's 80 pages though. Lurking at this point is beyond ridiculous. I caught up 30 pages and haven't seen a Nosferatu post for ages. I honestly can't remember one, but they've never been prodded. This is a player that needs to be on people's radar.

Lapsa: I don't like the flip flopping, the lack of honest content, or the general feel I get from them. Lapsa could be just sarcastic town, but I can't name a time that he's ever truly tried sorting anyone. He called me 'Not touching: town' as Cloud pointed out, but voted me when my wagon looked a sure thing. He never gave a reason for it either, which I don't like.

Lil Uzi: General vibe I get from them, but I don't see Uzi as truly attempting to find scum. He's largely sheeped other opinions until very recently, and it just feels like the classic 'trying to skate by unnoticed' scum play rather than anything sinister. It's not a great case by any means, but I find him scummier due to that than I do Alisae. I see them as largely the same player, but Alisae I know is new. Lil Uzi isn't, so there's less excuses there. Aside from that, nobody has legitimately called him into question the way they have with Alisae, saying she's an SK or Traitor or Survivor... A lot of bad claims for D1. They never tried this with Uzi, and I don't really know why.

Ssbm_kyouko: I flip back and forth with him... His play doesn't seem the same as what I know townie ssbm does. His conclusions and reads seem off as well. The thing that flips me is that he genuinely seems to be trying. I don't agree with his theories or conclusions, but he's at least giving them. That's far more than I can say about the above three players.

D1 lynches are a crapshoot, but I'm okay with a Lapsa lynch. I'm also ignoring Titus here (I still think she's scum) for reasons. It derailed the thread too much, so I'll let it get sorted another day phase. I don't like the Titus/ssbm 3rd party talk about Alisae though. Town shouldn't be worried or care to sort a 3rd party on D1. We don't know if there is one or not. Scum would want to find a traitor, but why mention SK? If you need an SK for your l D1 theory to work, perhaps you shouldn't have a theory and just lynch scum 1 at a time.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin read on me?

And I assume you like the Lapsa wagon? Why don't you have a seat or intent to hammer (assuming Elbrin takes the L-1 seat)?

If closer to deadline, I'll give intent. I don't have intent right now though. There's no reason to end the day yet.

Idk about you, but you've gotten more flak than Uzi has, which is what doesn't sit well with me. Uzi has largely been ignored or placed in 'null' reads by my SRs, while you've been talked over as an SK, traitor, survivor, etc. It seems really off to me. Nobody talks about SKs prior to D2. That's just weird. Without multiple NKs, why would anyone assume it at all? It's day 1. I just don't like it. I view you and Uzi as largely the same player so far, yet Uzi gets a pass?

[Tywin Lannister]

So I like your reads list for the most part Kyouko, but why is Pine/Nosferatu in as null town? Have they said anything that would make you lean town, or is it just not knowing where to place them due to extreme lurking?

[Tywin Lannister]

wat

Tywin, do you feel as if Kyouko on a scum team specifcily with Kyouko or not?

wat

[Tywin Lannister]

wat

Tywin, do you feel as if Kyouko on a scum team specifcily with

Lapsa

or not?

wat

Edited. 4am. Need to sleep, probably am not going to sleep anyways.

I honestly haven't and won't look for scum pairings this early. Without a flip of one of them, there's really no point. It's one of the major gripes I had/have with Titus. It's just pointless to look for pairs and tunnel the game into theories that make no sense. That's why I believe she even put you as the 'SK' on D1, because you don't fit well in her scum pairing theory. Kyouko running with it kind of also points out why pairing anyone on D1 doesn't work. I've always thought it best to find one scum first, at least in large games like this. Find the first one before worrying about more.

Do you have any specific connections between Lapsa/Kyouko though? That's worth looking into regardless, but if it's just Kyouko not voting Lapsa, I don't see a problem with it right now.

[Tywin Lannister]

Hey Ty! Good to have you back in the fray.

Could you give some examples of why you feel me and Alisae are basically the same player to you? I'm struggling to see how you reached that conclusion.

It's a feeling, and I'm also lazy enough (plus sick) to not go back and find every post that struck the same cord for me, but it's mainly the lack of real conviction on anyone, the flip flopping on me, Titus, etc. You both generally seem to want to make everyone happy. It's not just an Alisae thing. There's more to it, but that's the basis of it. Alisae got called an SK/traitor/etc for wanting to please everyone, while you got called null/null town for doing much of the same IMO. I'm not sure why you've been given a pass here.

[Tywin Lannister]

Votecount 1.10

Lapsa 7 (Pine, CloudKicker, Alisae, Titus, Gamma Emerald, Lil Uzi Vert, ssbm_Kyouko)
Titus 4 (Nero Cain, mozamis, Tywin Lannister, Syryana)
Alisae 1 (Aj The Epic)
Tywin Lannister 1 (Lapsa)
CloudKicker 1 (Nosferatu)

Not Voting 3 (Cabd, xSoniaNevermindx, Elbirn)

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

Deadline for Day 1 is December 30 at 11 AM Eastern.

While the mod at least exists now, he will nonetheless be kinda-on-vacation for the next week.

Here is my hangup with Lapsa being scum... Namely a few SRS on the wagon. If Lapsa does flip scum, I can't see them all bussing here. It wouldn't make sense. AJ/Nosferatu/Sonia/Elbirn will need closer looks regardless. I get bigger scum vibes from Nosferatu/AJ than I do Elibirn/Sonia though.

So why hasn't anyone questioned Nosferatu on that Cloud vote? That just looks bad. AJ on Alisae over ever mentioning Uzi looks bad IMO. I'd assume they'd both be scummy in AJ's mind considering they both have done the same things (albeit to lesser degrees). I honestly like everyone on the Titus wagon, but that's not going to go through today. Sonia had kinda disappeared, so I don't know where to lean with her.

The real problem I have is that the Lapsa wagon contains enough SRs that it gives me pause, but nothing Lapsa has done objectively makes me think 'town' whatsoever. So it's my own bias due to SRs that make me uneasy about him more than anything else. If Lapsa is scum, then they can't all be scum with him. That's too many votes for a proper bus.

[Tywin Lannister]

Honestly? I'm starting to think Lapsa/AJ/Nosferatu just off their early exchange with Cabd and knowing there's day talk.

[Tywin Lannister]

Honestly? I'm starting to think Lapsa/AJ/Nosferatu just off their early exchange with Cabd and knowing there's day talk.

If Nos were scum with these two, his vote on Cloud seems very off unless he's catching up while placing it.
Like, it seems it would be super uncordinated with his scumteam.

He voted you when the Lapsa wagon first took off on page 2 or so. Lapsa had voted you too I believe.

And what's uncoordinated there? You think scum will all join the same wagon? I don't. Do you think they'll all bus unless it's a for sure lynch? I don't. The cloud vote looks bad, but it's a placeholder vote. It isn't meant to show conviction. It's not a real scum read. It's just there to have a vote while hopefully not draw any attention. Clouds not getting lynched clearly, so it's a wasted vote.

[Tywin Lannister]

AJ: I'm not trying to tunnel you three into a team, but it's fine IMO to throw it out there. I like the Nosferatu vote currently. His flip doesn't correlate to your/Lapsa's alignment, but it's a starting point. Frankly, I think you lynch who you think is scum and go from there one at a time. There aren't any double lynches, and it's a waste of time to put a whole lot of stock into scum teams on D1. I still think it's a possibility, but that's not really worth investigating further until someone flips scum. So while I think you believe you caught me in a 'gotcha' moment, I don't agree. I'm not basing the entire game on conf bias trying to prove a team exists pre-flip like some of your TRs have.

VOTE: Nosferatu. I like this vote. I also see Lapsa being probable scum too, but I do feel like Nosferatu is a better bet. All the players on his wagon didn't sit well with me, and even if it was a scum bus, I don't think all scum are on it. I think Nosferatu needs to explain the throwaway vote on Cloud at the very least. It's pretty obvious that cloud isn't getting lynched today, and the reasoning (from what I remember) seemed really weak and pointless.

Yay, a wagon I can really get behind that doesn't make me question all my SRs in doing so.

[Tywin Lannister]

Not properly caught up. But it's the old problem - if a wagon (Lapsa) builds up steam quickly like this, prob means there is scum on it. So I'm liking it less.
Much rather Titus, who I'm pretty sure is scum.

I think I've agreed with your reads this game, and I still believe in a scum Titus (inherently conf bias at this point though), but she's not gonna get lynched today. I think that's painfully obvious. I agree with your assessment of the scummish players on the Lapsa wagon too. That's literally the only reason it doesn't sit well with me though. I don't think Lapsa is town, but I definitely don't think Nosferatu is town when you really look at him and the context/timing of his posts. Knowing that there's day talk now (regardless of whether people disbelieve that I didn't see post 400 something for a while), Nosferatu just has some weird timing going on with his content. I need to do a real ISO, but I'm good with his wagon as it stands. I'm surprised it even gained votes tbh, but I like it. N1/D2 is always there to sort the other current scummy players.

Side note: still sick. I actually showed up to work and a couple managers took one look at me and sent me home. I guess that means I'll have time to invest in the game today. Don't think I'll be sleeping the whole day like yesterday, so I'll try to ISO Nosferatu and post a clearer case on him, since I'm mostly going off of memory atm. I should probably do the same for Lapsa to see if either is a better/worse wagon.

[Tywin Lannister]

Lol, so it won't take long to ISO Nos. He has 17 total posts in an 80+ page game. He's never been prodded, and nobody has really looked at him much at all. I've seen scum pairs thrown out all over the place, but Nos always enters null/null town in any read lists people give. Is that a case of forgetting he exists, or is it due to scum not wanting him and his obvious lurking (while avoiding prod) to be noticed? Will follow up soon.

[Tywin Lannister]

Speed of a wagon has never been AI of the wagonee. Mozamis might as well be saying Titus is on it, so I will not bus.

Also, not found of doing dual scum wagon nonsense. If both wagons are on scum, it fractures town and makes scum harder to lynch. If one is on town, it makes the one that's on scum harder to go through.

Pretty sure the way Tywin jumped onto this that it is just lurkerbait to save Lapsa.

Oh look, more shade throwing, with a bit of WIFOM for good measure.

I can do this too!

Pretty sure the way Titus hopes to derail the Nosferatu wagon without even looking into it at all is just scum hoping to avoid a buddy lynch.

[Tywin Lannister]

@Titus: do you TR Nosferatu? If yes, why? If no, then why are you against the wagon?

[Tywin Lannister]

no stahp
tywin is town

My door is open to reasons to townread him that are not rage/faked towntells. I have asked repeatedly, got crickets.

He finally simmered down when I was talking with him. I'd think scum would remain indignant.

I'm still indignant to be fair, but in the off-chance she is town, I don't want to keep derailing everything based on my extreme bias. You shouldn't waste time trying to convince Titus of anything with me. It won't happen. She will be convinced I'm scum until I flip no matter what happens IMO. I still think she's scum, but maybe I'll be proven wrong. I at least recognize my judgement on her is clouded, so that's why I'm ignoring her slot. I'll let others do the sorting there. Regardless of her being scum IMO, there are others out there, and the feud between her and I largely detailed the thread and made me emo af. Not a good look, so I'm not going near it. I know I'm town, so it just largely disqualifies most/all of her opinions, because she's pushing hard on a town slot without acknowledging even the slimmest chance of me flipping town. That's hardcore conf bias, so I can't take her reads seriously RN. If she manages to find actual scum, then maybe I'll overlook her hard D1 misread of me and listen. I just don't expect her to do the same, but you never know. Sometimes town wins by overcoming petty disputes in search of lynching the greater evil in scum. It could happen if she's town.

[Tywin Lannister]

I mean he will get prodded sometime before the 30th and have no choice but to respond. Isn't like Lapsa is being pro-town with responding to his wagon. I'm pretty sure he's scum too. I like the reactions against the Nos wagon though. People who are more than okay with a lapsa lynch are not with Nos? Why? Does one seem blatantly scummier? I say they're both scum really. Makes me question if there really is a multiball setup now, cuz why would scum be okay with bussing lapsa but not Nos?

[Tywin Lannister]

I am really starting to think Sonia is scum at this point. There was no real reason for scum to shoot at cloud except their friendship connection. Why not shoot one of the stronger TRs like Cabd or something? Why not shoot me or Titus and put WIFOM shade on the other? Why not shoot anyone that looks like a PR? Why cloud? It's funny that he's the traitor, but scum shooting cloud means they did it for personal reasons over in-game ones. That points directly to Sonia IMO.

[Tywin Lannister]

I know who I'm vigging tonight.

We need to revisit this as well

[Tywin Lannister]

I know who I'm vigging tonight.

Nah, I was fakehammering for reaction test purposes.

Results: Alisae gon git vig'd

And this

[Tywin Lannister]

Nah, I was fakehammering for reaction test purposes.

And Tywin was on Titus, not Lapsa.

Shows how much attention I've been paying.

At least you didn't skip 10 pages like me

Sigh.

I'd shoot Uzi before I shot Nos or ssbm fwiw.

Aaaaand this

[Tywin Lannister]

Did this guy nk cloud just so he can try and frame my ass

WIFOM, same as your reasoning to not shoot cloud as Alisae just pointed out (she's getting good at this)
. Simplest explanation is usually right. I'm not gonna use the NK of cloud as a reason to call you scum, but it's a starting point to look into you further.

Before that happens, I REALLY wanna hear what's up from Syryana. I missed that whole sequence at the end of D1 where he claimed vigi multiple times, not expecting a counter from Alisae. He clearly didn't shoot Alisae, but she shot Uzi. Something's gotta give here folks.

Also, I'm tossing out every preconceived notion from D1. Nobody is town RN except Titus who is mostly cleared (albeit by a possible fake claim, but unlikely) gunsmith. Cabd is at least partially cleared if the gunsmith claim wasn't fake. The rest all go back to null.

[Tywin Lannister]

Kyouko youre really underestimating what a traitor would to to indicates hes the traitor to their scumteam

Doesn't this post suggest lynch Kyouko?

Hmm..

Also I haf question: Uzi flipped Vanilla Cop. The only reason for the vanilla to be in there is if there are either modifier cops (insane/naive/etc) elsewhere. So if someone also got a cop role, perhaps they are insane? Just a thought, although not sure if the modifiers are considered normal or not. I just don't really see a reason to say 'vanilla' cop if the others aren't normal anyway.

[Tywin Lannister]

People who shout wifom are people who can't expect logical facts
There's no way the Cloud scum kill points to me you're saying it's personal when people just townread cloud and he could be the nk for that
THAT'S THE SIMPLE FUCKING ANSWER
What you're suggesting is I'm basically going "omg guys I know cloud and he's rly good let's get'em!"

So your answer is 'cloud was NK'd just because he was a town read' and that's it? Scum didn't even try to look for a better NK? They just chose randomly through anyone that wasn't on their team? You know better than this Sonia.

[Tywin Lannister]

"Sonia nking cloud doesn't make sense so much that it makes sense hahahaa"
S H O O T M E I N T H E H E A D
Cloud buddied my ass cause he knows I'm really easy to buddy.
Simple

So if we WIFOM the exact opposite here and say cloud buddied your ass because he was traitor and knew you were scum... You'd call us stupid and that a joke, correct? Why would you not be able to understand both perspectives?

[Tywin Lannister]

By the way... It's snowing in Seattle. Like actual snow. Sticking to the ground and everything. First time I've seen that since I moved out here 3 years ago. Kinda cool. I'm good with it as long as it's gone right after Christmas

[Tywin Lannister]

Kyouko youre really underestimating what a traitor would to to indicates hes the traitor to their scumteam

Doesn't this post suggest lynch Kyouko?

Hmm..

Also I haf question: Uzi flipped Vanilla Cop. The only reason for the vanilla to be in there is if there are either modifier cops (insane/naive/etc) elsewhere. So if someone also got a cop role, perhaps they are insane? Just a thought, although not sure if the modifiers are considered normal or not. I just don't really see a reason to say 'vanilla' cop if the others aren't normal anyway.

This is just bad.

Vanilla cop checks VT or PR. Goon comes back vanilla.

Cops must be sane in normals. Try again.

I don't know til I ask Titus. That's why I said it was a question. We come from different environments and expectations on what roles are normal or not.

[Tywin Lannister]

"Sonia nking cloud doesn't make sense so much that it makes sense hahahaa"
S H O O T M E I N T H E H E A D
Cloud buddied my ass cause he knows I'm really easy to buddy.
Simple

So if we WIFOM the exact opposite here and say cloud buddied your ass because he was traitor and knew you were scum... You'd call us stupid and that a joke, correct? Why would you not be able to understand both perspectives?

I understand if people would think I was scum for being scum.
I would understand if Cloud was lynched and people thought we were scum buddies
I do not understand how the Cloud kill points to me what so ever when I'm the last person here who would do that

Maybe scum are framing you, who knows. I just don't understand the point of a cloud NK other than your ties to him. I don't accept that it's just a random NK. Scum 'should' be smarter than that.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'll brb I'm getting my juice.

Laid back, with my mind on the scummy and the scummy on my mind.

[Tywin Lannister]

"Sonia nking cloud doesn't make sense so much that it makes sense hahahaa"
S H O O T M E I N T H E H E A D
Cloud buddied my ass cause he knows I'm really easy to buddy.
Simple

So if we WIFOM the exact opposite here and say cloud buddied your ass because he was traitor and knew you were scum... You'd call us stupid and that a joke, correct? Why would you not be able to understand both perspectives?

I understand if people would think I was scum for being scum.
I would understand if Cloud was lynched and people thought we were scum buddies
I do not understand how the Cloud kill points to me what so ever when I'm the last person here who would do that

Maybe scum are framing you, who knows. I just don't understand the point of a cloud NK other than your ties to him. I don't accept that it's just a random NK. Scum 'should' be smarter than that.

Tywin, I don't see scum trying to frame Sonia.
If they wanted to frame Sonia, Gamma would be the better NK.
Unless they are trying to frame Sonia, in which case Gamma is scum.

Why would gamma implicate Sonia?

[Tywin Lannister]

Actually, I want to hear from Gamma now. I forgot he was in this game

[Tywin Lannister]

^ this guy knows how to make smart posts

[Tywin Lannister]

Also can someone explain the titus/Cabd "Clear" read?

Cabd claimed gunsmith, claimed he didn't find a gun on titus

[Tywin Lannister]

VOTE: Kyouko. L-4 now I believe

I still wanna hear from Syryana on that vigi claim that came right before Alisae countered. I believe her over him.

[Tywin Lannister]

Sonia, I think the buddying is more in-line with the SR than the NK itself. The NK is just icing, but not the real substance of it. The NK is all WIFOM, so you claiming you'd never do it to a buddy can also be supported by scum thinking 'I'll NK cloud and nobody will suspect me since I'd never NK a buddy' kind of deal. It's all WIFOM either way.

[Tywin Lannister]

Actually Tywin, why did you feel the need to so suddenly jump on Sonia about the NK?

Because I don't understand why cloud was picked over almost anyone else. The only connection cloud really had was Sonia, and she laughed about him getting NK'd by saying 'take that for buddying me!' Paraphrased a bit, but it just seemed off.

[Tywin Lannister]

I keep seeing 'If Tywin flips scum, Player X is town'. Well what happens when I flip town? Do you gain any info on my lynch at all? I feel like those that are stuck with me in their scum list aren't evaluating everything or everyone. It's stale. There never was a legitimate case on me. There wasn't even one for Lapsa either, aside from a general 'feel' on him. Nobody looks to be giving genuine evaluations of things outside of bad theories that don't hold up with flips.

Here's my point: what did we learn from the Lapsa flip? I learned that there's at least one scum on his wagon. It was pushed and pushed (like mine was) without reason. Nobody even questioned it. Nobody said 'wait, why is this going through so easily and without pushback?' What was even learned from it? Anything? We were down a townie and for no reason.

Then we have Alisae NK Uzi for no reason. She killed our cop. What did his flip tell us? Anything? If not, then why TF was Uzi chosen over original intended targets like nos? Nos' wagon was derailed fast. Scum didn't want it to happen IMO. Alisae was told not to shoot him by Syryana as well. She followed his prodding like a sheep. It got our cop killed. This is ignoring that a vigi shooting N1 is almost always a terrible decision. She's new so I ignore that, but for future reference: vigi's STOP shooting N1 unless it's an obvious scum kill. You'll almost always hit town, and since we HAD a cop, we lose at least one confirmed investigation. Alisae, you did scum's work for them. Why shoot Uzi? You said nos was your target originally. Why change? Why not shoot me? My flip would've given more info and not had wasted another town mislynch. Did you think about it before shooting Uzi? Or did you just listen to whatever Syryana told you with his vigi claim (which you didn't question at all???).

I feel like this game is full of people making suboptimal decisions and not thinking about the pros/cons of them. If you aren't sure whose scum and are after blood, why not go for the lynch/vigi kill that gives actual info to town to work with? Nobody seems to question this stuff and it's pretty annoying from my viewpoint.

Some flips that give info IMO: Sonia/Kyouko/me/Syryana

There's probably more, but start there if you're not going to think things through and try to use information from flips to find scum. Just lyching/vigi killing without thought is the worst idea possible. THINK before you act.

All that being said, I have another 20 something pages to catch up with now. This damn thread is annoying. I hope one of you has something new to add in the last 20 pages, because if not, I'll be even more annoyed that I wasted my time reading it. Stop posting useless crap if you've got nothing to add. I'd prefer wall posts from everyone right now over 97 pages. At least walls need general thought to create, rather than dumb one sentence posts saying nothing useful.

[Tywin Lannister]

I thought it was a literal mason claim/crumb. Obviously that's not the case so eh

Why would Mason's even give that crumb? It's not necessary unless Kyouko or his partner were at L1 with intent to hammer given. Then he'd say it. It's useless right now to give that info out. There's not enough sure-fire TRs after the recent flips to create a town bloc, and it's not optimal Mason play to tell anyone with so many unconfirmed and nowhere near Lylo. Mason's shouldn't crumb yet, and so why are you looking for it? To create a theory? Why not find scum one player at a time? We need an actual scum flip before theories are even close to useful right now. Please try to remember that.

[Tywin Lannister]

It turned into just gamma scumreading me turning into a sudden snowball
does no one see the issue in this

I'm not caught up at all, but what's your vc? Are you the leading wagon? Sigh... Afk until I read this mess

[Tywin Lannister]

In post 1842, CloudKicker wrote:
Titus is town, tywin is town, aj looks town, sonia is gut town with pro reads that are just like mine. Sbm might be playing a great scumgame btw, elbirn looks town enough, gamma with the mason comment looks ridiculously town

So Titus, tywin and Aj scum?
I can totally buy that.
Apart from the massive tywin and titus spat. Epic performance if so. I know Titus is capable of that sort of game. Anyone know Tywin's game? Is he good enough to pull of that kind of stuff?

Yep. He is definitely good enough to pull that shit off.

Read this game for an example:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69290
We spent the whole game scumreading each other. We were both townies.

Elbrin, if Tywin is town. Describe his push on Sonia earlier. Because that feels forced to me.

How does it 'feel' forced. Do you even know what that means? You're saying useless crap in a shade throwing attempt, while not actually staying WHY you think it's forced. This is scummy. Don't do it unless you can give reasons. I take it that you're scum reading me after seeing posts like the above consistently from you. Am I correct?

Here's my question to you: you claim vig yet didn't question Syryana on his claim ever. Why? When Titus even points out how extremely unlikely it is to ever have two vig's in the same game (plus there weren't 3 NKs), you STILL don't question Syryana. Why? This is wrong and completely scummy. You counter claimed and don't push the original claimant at all? Not even a single pushback? Again... Why?

[Tywin Lannister]

Literally impossible unless those three plus me are scum

ok, caught up and have calmed slightly.
I'll rescind my rage vote for now. His reason for voting Lapsa sounds OK. Plus, I really want him to be town. He has to be null I guess for a while. But seems more profitabke to concentrate on cloud kikers stuff.

UNVOTE

My run through of Cloudkicker's ISO suggests that he was attacking Gamma, Alisea, Nero and I pretty consistently. There were others, and a few he went back and forth on, but they seemed more a feature of his spazzy nature than serious attacks.

More important is how hard he defended Tywin. That's where my vote is going.

VOTE: Tywin

I'm just gonna keep defending tywin while he continues to ignore my love

It's pretty easy for scum to play peacemaker for town cred when they see a TvT fight. I don't think there was anyone in this game that wanted to see tywin v. Titus continue any longer, and the "protown" move was clearly to try to promote peace

<3 not ignored, but since I TR you, I don't see a point in responding to this stuff really. I'm looking for scum, not super awesome cool guys named Elibrin who are town.

[Tywin Lannister]

If Tywin flips scum, Sonia is town to me.

The reason why I said it felt forced was that he immediately jumped on Sonia about the NK.
I bought it at the time, but I took more time to think about it before I came to the conclusion that it felt forced.
Not to mention Tywin continued to push Sonia when Sonia wasn't responding well to the pressure.
So I could see why you think I'm all over the place with that.

Another push on me from Alisae. Not surprising, but her wanting me lynched over Syryana is disconcerning. She should be pushing hard against the counter claim, yet she ignores him completely in favor of me. Why?

[Tywin Lannister]

If Tywin flips scum, Sonia is town to me.

The reason why I said it felt forced was that he immediately jumped on Sonia about the NK.
I bought it at the time, but I took more time to think about it before I came to the conclusion that it felt forced.
Not to mention Tywin continued to push Sonia when Sonia wasn't responding well to the pressure.
So I could see why you think I'm all over the place with that.

If Tywin flips scum, Sonia is town to me.

The reason why I said it felt forced was that he immediately jumped on Sonia about the NK.
I bought it at the time, but I took more time to think about it before I came to the conclusion that it felt forced.
Not to mention Tywin continued to push Sonia when Sonia wasn't responding well to the pressure.
So I could see why you think I'm all over the place with that.

Do you think it's scummy to push someone cracking under pressure, or..?

Eh, it depends if they're being provacative or not.

But Tywin easily knew that Sonia could not respond well under pressure. She voted me up when I said she was overeacting, and she and Gamma got into some kind of fight.

Another post about me... Like every post Alisae makes has my name in it, even when what she responds to isn't about me. Is this not odd to anyone else???

[Tywin Lannister]

Okay so Alisae is confirmed SK. If she was vigi, she'd push against Syryana. She doesn't even want to touch him though, because his flip would destroy her claim. I'm ignoring her for the rest of the game as the obvious SK. It's probably not optimal to lynch her today, but she's only going to NK townies. She killed our cop obviously. Her being in the game only speeds us closer to Lylo, so if she's not the lynch today, then I hope either scum or our real vigi take her out at night. She can't remain in the game for long if town expects a chance to win.

So moving on, I once again am the leading wagon (well, I'm tied). Again, I'm a VC so at this point idgaf enough to fight it. It's inevitable that I'll be lynched sometime soon due to the town leadership currently basing the game off of extremely sub-optimal theories that don't help catch scum whatsoever. Cabd doesn't seem to like scum hunting anyone more so than to just give out inane theories based off of fake crumbs and other non-existent tells. I'd prefer him give actual thoughts on whose scum and follow through with it by questioning those players. He refuses to do that, which means he should not be town leader. I'd even give it to Titus since she's largely reevaluated things, and if Cabd is town gunsmith (likely, but not confirmed, and easy to fake claim with our cop dead), Titus is pretty close to confirmed. IF neither Titus or Cabd are dead by Lylo, then you know they're scum, but save that for a later date.

So Titus, who do you want to lynch? If it is me, then please give me something that says my flip gives town info. If my lynch does NOT give info after I flip town, then why am I getting lynched? That's not optimal play at all. People want me lynched, but they're not seemingly able to understand what it gives town if I flip town. Just wanting me to be scum won't make it true, so people, THINK about it if you are town. If you're scum, then you're gonna fake this shit anyways and my lynch is easy, gives town nothing to work with, and will bring you one step closer to Lylo, so continue as you are scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

It sounds like she's pushing a scumread. How strange.

I honestly believe you're scum. You've added nothing to the game, was on the Lapsa lynch, push for my lynch (I know I'm town) without reason, doesn't think things through about what info my flip will give if it flips town (and it will), doesn't look at Syryana or Alisae both claiming vigi, and has tried to derail the Kyouko wagon by going back to the easy mislynch (me).

What have you done this game that is pro-town Pine? Also, why not question the counter claims at all? What case do you have on me as scum, and if I flip town, what info do you gain from it? Do you not think anything through as a general rule?

[Tywin Lannister]

Btw Pine, you claim to have not read the entire D1, so I hope you have a good reason to SR me. You're playing the 'under the radar' scum very well this game. You're lucky the SK Alisae is helping you out, or I'd think you'd be a great cop investigation.

[Tywin Lannister]

Nobody has even evaluated Pine due to his extreme lurking, and he's been as useless as anyone not named Nosferatu this entire game. He clearly pushes for mislynches based on the Lapsa wagon (and now mine), so nothing he's done has been pro-town. He says a lot of one liners like post 2431 above that add nothing to move the game forward, and he does not scum hunt ever. He would be the definition of scum IMO. If you want to hop on a wagon that gives no info by a flip, at least go on the one that is far more likely to be scum. Pine. He has nobody after him at all. That alone should tell everyone that something is wrong.

[Tywin Lannister]

Okay so Alisae is confirmed SK. If she was vigi, she'd push against Syryana.

She doesn't even want to touch him though, because his flip would destroy her claim. I'm ignoring her for the rest of the game as the obvious SK. It's probably not optimal to lynch her today, but she's only going to NK townies. She killed our cop obviously. Her being in the game only speeds us closer to Lylo, so if she's not the lynch today, then I hope either scum or our real vigi take her out at night. She can't remain in the game for long if town expects a chance to win.

I Can WIFOM the bolded the whole fucking day.
I want him to show up so I can touch him. Like, legit you aren't even considering the fact that he hasn't appeared yet.

No you can't. You can't call basic gameplay WIFOM. You aren't following win con for town vigi. Simple. You're SK.

[Tywin Lannister]

In fairness to alisae syr hasn't even posted yet this phase

She's confirmed not groupscum, so even if you think she's an sk her suspicions and thoughts are all legitimate; whether we agree with her or not is another matter, but she is a verified trustworthy voice if she's trying to eliminate the scumteam, no? We can call her wrong (I think she is) but we can't say that her ideas are coming from a malicious intent like you inply

Having said that I don't believe syr has a legit counterclaim because he was apparently "joking" and so his flip doesn't Damm alisae. If he were a vig then there should have been a 3rd corpse last night.


Disclaimer: if you can convince me alisae is SK then turbo lynch the fuck out of her regardless, but for now with me being unconvinced of that idc

I also don't agree that someone being not scumread makes them scum (re:pine) but uh he is totally coasting off his early townread

Pedit: so many posts

Sk's job is to survive. She does that not by killing off scum, but keeping it as balanced as possible for as long as possible. Eventually she needs to take out scum so she isn't teamvoted out by them when town is eliminated, but let's not pretend being an SK is pro-town. I'm just ignoring her slot as the obvious SK at this point. And I don't take her analysis as truth at all for obvious reasons. She's voting me, and I know I'm town, so what reason do I have to include her in anything anymore? I'm not going to vote her until it's time to take out the SK, but I'm not going to give her anti-town reads any real credence. She's been tunneling on me all day long for no legitimate reason, and the only reason she gets away with it is due to being SK. Let's not pretend otherwise. She's helping scum currently. First it was Lapsa she hammered. Then she NK'd the cop. Now she's after another mislynch. That's 3 townies. I'm positive she will NK the 4th tonight. So she IS effectively scum's best weapon right now. She is their easy win con, and they can just NK or vote her out whenever they decide her usefulness is up. To town, she effectively is scum for her play so far. It certainly isn't a helpful-to-town SK by any means.

[Tywin Lannister]

Alisae just stop arguing. You don't even know what you're saying. If you were the vigilante, you'd start a wagon on Syryana for his vigi claim, because he faked it and is scum. You'd have CAUGHT scum right there for the taking, but instead are trying to argue that it's WIFOM for me to assume a townie would want to lynch scum.

Just stop. You're not fooling anyone. You're scum's best weapon right now too. You've hammered a townie, NK'd a cop, and now tunnel another townie. You'll almost certainly hit a 4th townie NK tonight unless you completely hit scum by accident, so that will be 4 townies you've had a huge role in taking out. The problem you have is scum know you're the SK too, so as soon as you're done hammering and NKing all the townies, you're next. So it's already game over for you. You just don't know it yet.

[Tywin Lannister]

@everyone not named me: Should suspected but not proven to be Vig/SKs be leashed or instantly lynched?

Unless you truly believe in two vigilantes, and ignore everything alisae's done this game, then she is pretty much confirmed SK. I think we all need to go by that as a rule of thumb first.

[Tywin Lannister]

SYRYANA IS NOT A FUCKING VIG OH MY GOD


It was painfully obvious he was kidding. Does nobody else see that?

Then his painfully obvious kidding caused our vigilante to claim. Not so obvious to me, and clearly not so obvious to Alisae. She believed it, and still does. Your post saying its a joke may give her a defense, but before that? She should have pushed Syryana on his claim, since she believed it enough to claim herself. Why didn't she?

Also, Syryana doubled down on it for 4 posts. That's a lot of kidding if you ask me. He also helped 'trick' Alisae into hammering Lapsa. Admittedly. So you TR that? I'm certainly not sure why. Just because you are friends doesn't mean he's confirmed town. If I did what he did, id be called scum for it.

[Tywin Lannister]

If I did what he did, id be called scum for it.

You would!

I don't townread him for it; I nullread him for it. Lemme pull up some examples of why.

Fair enough. All I'm saying is that vigilante Alisae should technically have pushed on Syryana's vigi claim. She believed him enough to claim herself, so I take that as she fully took his word. Due to that, she should recognize there aren't two vigilantes and said something, but she's ignored his slot entirely. I realize he's not here, but she posts zero thoughts on him. She won't go near it when asked. That's a huge red flag to me. It makes me strongly believe SK, and if she is the vigilante... then she has a lot to learn and needs to stop hammering/shooting town without thought. She didn't even think about what Syryana's claim could mean, which shows she either doesn't understand what's going on or she doesn't want to touch it due to being SK.

I'm talking in circles so if nobody else wants to listen, that's fine. I said what I think. If it were me in her shoes, I'd have pushed against Syryana's claim in a heartbeat. She already claimed, so she can't worry about scum knowing she's a PR anymore. Syryana would have to die if I were Alisae and believed his claim like she did. IMO

[Tywin Lannister]

Okay!
I never actually sent the last letter. Let's try this again.

Dear Santa, I would like to vig the following People.
Tywin
Kyouko
Sonia

Just shoot me please.

Reasons:

A) I won't be an inevitable town mislynch
B) You can't hit any actual town PRs
C) I can happily stop trying to catch up on 30 pages each day
D) Forces town to either reevaluate the game, or just lose faster for being so irresponsible

I'm serious. I'd rather you NK me than have town waste another day mislynching another VT for no actual reason whatsoever. The fact that there's not even a case on me doesn't even bother anyone, so I feel like the game is a wash. Town can't be carried by one smart player the same way as scum can, so losing due to being on a less than stellar town team isn't that bad. Id rather it end quicker the way this game has been going. Scum don't even need to try when we have town like this against them. 100 pages on D2, and we are still back to mislynching the same wagons we were D1. Nothing learned, nothing questioned, nobody scum hunting at all, nobody presenting any cases against me or anyone else... It's high time I'm put out of my misery and leave town to their own devices. Maybe they'll focus after I'm gone and at least attempt to find real scum. If not, then I'd rather not be here to watch it slip away anyways.

So.... Shoot me plz?

[Tywin Lannister]

Also: everyone needs to stop focusing on Alisae and try to find actual scum. She's obviously NOT scum. She's either SK or Vigi, neither of which matter right now. Town loses no matter what Alisae flips if we don't find scum. Alisea questions aren't progressing the game. It's stalking it out. It's giving scum the ability to post without needing to actually scum hunt. It's a red herring that is anti-town when it takes focus away from scum.

Merry Christmas

[Tywin Lannister]

@Alisae - Are there any restrictions on when you can kill besides during the night phase?

I can only kill during the night phase and I can kill whoever the fuck I want whoever the fuck I want. Besides obv towns. Shooting them would be retarded.

You don't even know who obvious towns are, nor do you seem to want to find them or find scum. If you're town, this 'I will shoot whoever I want I am teh shooter, memememememe' talk is distracting and anti-town. You're going to lose due to it. If you're SK, you're going to lose anyways so idk what to tell you.

The thing you should be worried more about than anything is the fact that you claimed D1 and scum saw you as more helpful to them than town. That's why you're alive still. If you were a detriment to scum, you'd be NK'd in a heartbeat. Remember that disrespect and maybe use it to find real scum instead of this weird power trip you're going on about. Scum are laughing at you at night when they won't NK you, because it means they fully expect you to continue to help their cause in mislynching and NKing town. Just saying. Shoot some scums and force their hand if you really are town vigi. Stop doing their work for them.

Except tonight. Go ahead and shoot me tonight (if I'm not mislynched by then). I support that and won't count it against you.

[Tywin Lannister]

Looks like I've been prodded. Sorry, the past week has been hectic with the holidays and being sick and stuff. I'll catch up soon.

[Tywin Lannister]

So I just caught up. There's nothing interesting whatsoever in the past 20 or so pages. It's all crap.

Town is shitting the bed here BADLY. It's like you're all playing like newbies. You all give the same shit reads, don't give legitimate reasons for them (the only reasons I see are for TRs, which mean jack fucking shit), and you all wagon townies. It's terribad. I pray that I'm shot tonight by Alisae so I can't be a part of this shit show. This thread is absolutely ridiculous. You guys need to relearn how to read players. I'm not joking.

Mozamis is OBVIOUS town. That's a BAD wagon. It's a fucking joke. What is the case on him? There isn't one!!! Wake the fuck up town. Learn how to play mafia. Jesus.

All the shit reads from Kyouko and Pine are pre-flip garbage based on me being scum. Titus still calls me scum without any actual evaluation. Cabd sits in a corner with popcorn. Nos wants to lynch an SK/maybe vigi over scum. Kyouko calls that lurking fuck town for it. Pine does Jack shit all game, every post is absolute garbage fluff, yet nobody questions him on it. Mozamis gives actually legit reads that make sense and gets a quick wagon for it. Alisae jumps on it due to not knowing how to play. Elibrin is obvious town and will be NK'd for it most likely. Titus has been useless the entire day. Gamma is obvious scum. Who am I missing? Anyone? Syryana... Probably scum since he hasn't reappeared since his fake vigi claim that our 'Vigi Alisae whose probably SK' won't call him out on. What else?

Honestly, this game is fucked. Scum will easily win. Town have no ability to give decent reads, and the amount of pre-flip garbage and useless theories constantly thrown out only prove that point more and more. This game is one of the worst town performances I've seen in a very long time. Scum aren't even playing well. They just don't have to do a thing. Town mislynch all on their own. Scum just hop on.

Again, mozamis is town. Lapsa's wagon I understood. He screamed scummy in his personality and play style. Mozamis screams town and you people wagon him for it. Why? Because you disagree with his reads. You disagree with his reads, because your own are absolute shit. This is seriously a learn 2 play issue. Some of you need to relearn the game or take a break from it. 100% serious here.

People who are probably town or third party (SK, or something stupid like survivor):

Titus
Cabd
Mozamis
Elibrin
Alisae (I don't care whether she's vigi or SK, she's not the lynch target under any circumstances)
Me (but who cares, I'm an easy mislynch tomorrow if Alisae doesn't shoot me)

Probably scum:

Pine
AJ
Gamma

Null but lean scum over town:
Nos
Kyouko
Syryana

Did I miss anyone?

Chew on that list. Mozamis is CLEARLY a scum driven wagon. It's terrible.

I want Pine lynched more than anyone, but since town won't give me that wish, I'll vote the other leading wagon in AJ, who at best is null and at worst is a useless scum fuck. Just saying.

VOTE: AJ

Alisae: please shoot me tonight. Otherwise, please shoot obvious scum Pine.

[Tywin Lannister]

Oh I forgot Nero in there. Add him to the null/don't care pile.

[Tywin Lannister]

I forgot Sonia too. Add her to scum pile.

[Tywin Lannister]

Elibrin, if you are town, I'd give a long farewell letter and last reads before mozamis gets hammered, because you're too town to not be NK'd soon. I mean.. Assuming scum aren't idiots, I can't see how you'd live. Mozamis is the other obvious 'absolutely screams town' player to me, and scum are wagoning him for it. Titus and Cabd have remained useless enough to live on. I'm an easy mislynch tomorrow. Alisae is useless and easily led like a sheep, so she's gonna stay. The rest are null players that could go either way, but honestly add nothing to help town win so they're a wash.

So analyzing what any smart scum team would do, you're the obvious NK target assuming you really are town and not scum playing the game of your life. Just saying man. Be prepared for it. I can say this since I already accept my fate as the next mislynch, so I'm not exactly worried about scum like Pine calling this post scummy. I'm just calling it as I see it. Give reads before the day ends. FYI

[Tywin Lannister]

>Rants about no ability to give decent reads
>votes for the one person in the game he doesn't mention the entire post

I'm only voting you because you're not mozamis. I want Pine lynched, but it would be a throwaway vote. IMO so is mine on you too, but at least I tried. You lean more null than scum to me (although you are in my scum pool), but it's not like it will matter. You're gonna lynch town regardless of what your flip is since you're wagoning mozamis. At least give a case on him.

[Tywin Lannister]

So according to moz aj is scum but let's look for options outside of aj

Wew lads

She just saw the light imo.

I don't really get the negative feels over this game. As far as I'm concerned, the town's in a relatively decent position to perform and Tywin's direction went against his own diction by refusing to explain his own placement.

I have no idea what that last sentence means, but idk how you think town are in a good position? After you mislynch another townie on D2, and Alisae NKs another townie in me or someone else, town will be down 5. We got lucky with scum NKing cloud. That was pretty funny, but even scum being morons won't derail them from this win. Town are just bigger morons.

You must like in some really optimistic fantasy land to think town are in a good position with zero scum flips. Traitor doesn't count, since scum did that themselves. You live in a fantasy. You must be scum for that, because there's no legitimate reason to assume anything good here. Even if you pre-flip me and call me caught scum (which I'm not so that's also a hugely false hypothetical), you'd still be screwed. After I'm mislynched or vigi killed, you'll be down to Lylo maybe.

[Tywin Lannister]

I do cases when I need to start a wagon, not end one.

Have fun with that scum. That's not a townie mindset. You're lucky town have a learn 2 play issue this game.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm not dead? And that scum Nos is? Nice shot Alisae.

Also, I think via DOES matter. D1, when Titus was pushing Lapsa's wagon after mine failed, I tried pushing Nos (Eliburn did as well), but nope... Titus had to have Lapsa! She's never once mentioned Nos all game. She's not the lynch today due to Cabd, but it makes Cabd suspect along with her.

Also, Kyouko is scum. He kept calling Nos town for no reason. I want kyouko's scummy head on a platter.

[Tywin Lannister]

VCA

[Tywin Lannister]

Actually, I wanna do this.

VOTE: Tywin

All hail the gods of VCA and truth.

If Tywin is mason, I will not be happy.

I'm going to give Tywin a chance to talk before jumping on his ass
VOTE: Nero

I'm not the Mason. That's what I didn't understand. Why didn't moz's mason buddy defend him? Wth?

I TOLD you all he was town though. I also said Nos was scum Day fuckin 1. You people need to listen to me for once. Alisae saved the game, with no help coming from our 'town leader' players like Titus and Cabd.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm not dead? And that scum Nos is? Nice shot Alisae.

Also, I think via DOES matter. D1, when Titus was pushing Lapsa's wagon after mine failed, I tried pushing Nos (Eliburn did as well), but nope... Titus had to have Lapsa! She's never once mentioned Nos all game. She's not the lynch today due to Cabd, but it makes Cabd suspect along with her.

Also, Kyouko is scum. He kept calling Nos town for no reason. I want kyouko's scummy head on a platter.

How can anyone be townreading this?

How can any town player think Cabd is suspect but Nos flipped scum...and they flipped the same night...

This is fake.

Not a single person should be town reading you based on VCA alone. Easy there cowgirl. You're clearly not good at this scum reading business. Maybe you should stop and let the real players handle this game, unless you're scum. All you do is wagon Townes and defend scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

Oh Cabd is dead? Nvm then. Didn't see the scum nk.

K well Kyouko is scum. He's a better lynch than Nero IMO

[Tywin Lannister]

Shading the dead guy...

Yeah this is the third derpslip. Dude fakes them underpressure

You can lynch me, but after, please admit you're not good at scum reading whatsoever. I'd be the third town you wagon. You're not playin well at all this game. If you weren't so incompetent and also lucky that Cabd investigated you, I'd say you'd have to be scum for how bad you've been playing. It really seems fake af.

[Tywin Lannister]

Shading the dead guy...

Yeah this is the third derpslip. Dude fakes them underpressure

Yeah he's not the mason.

Titus, how does his pushes make sense from a scum perspective? Why pick a fight with you here, why go after kyouko (whose main proponent for a wagon listed him as a no-lynch today)? I think his actions are reckless and off-base but for little benefit of scum.

My actions are reckless and off base? How? I'm at work, so I'm not caught up, and I only checked to see if I'd been NKed yet, but I find it absolutely hilarious that all my reads have been mostly correct, while all the players who've been gunning for me all game have consistently wagoned town and zero scum. That's really funny to me, because regardless of the outcome, I was proven right, while players who've been whining and crying about lynching me all game have been proven to be nothing but a detriment to town.

I haven't been on a single town wagon this game. You all join shit wagons without reason, don't listen to obvious town players, and still refuse to acknowledge you were wrong. I think Titus needs to just stop and let others handle things, since she's been nothing but bad for town as far as I've seen. Maybe she redeems herself starting now, but all her wagons and reads have been shit the entire game up til now. Yes, I'm gloating. She deserves this in this specific game.

[Tywin Lannister]

I'm not dead? And that scum Nos is? Nice shot Alisae.

Also, I think via DOES matter. D1, when Titus was pushing Lapsa's wagon after mine failed, I tried pushing Nos (Eliburn did as well), but nope... Titus had to have Lapsa! She's never once mentioned Nos all game.

She's not the lynch today due to Cabd, but it makes Cabd suspect along with her.

Also, Kyouko is scum. He kept calling Nos town for no reason. I want kyouko's scummy head on a platter.

The fuck? He flipped town jackass.

Shh scum, you'll get your wagon soon enough.

[Tywin Lannister]

Shading the dead guy...

Yeah this is the third derpslip. Dude fakes them underpressure

Yeah he's not the mason.

Titus, how does his pushes make sense from a scum perspective? Why pick a fight with you here, why go after kyouko (whose main proponent for a wagon listed him as a no-lynch today)? I think his actions are reckless and off-base but for little benefit of scum.

Because he's more concerned with faking townslips than scumhunting.

Your shitty push on me is so contrived, it's ridiculous at this point. Stop crying that you can't lynch me out of spite and learn how to read scum. You can't say I don't scum hunt when all you do is wagon townies. Your scum hunting is a net positive only for scum. I bet this really gets under your skin, doesn't it?

[Tywin Lannister]

How can't I argue that you're shit town and that I've not been on town wagons? They don't correlate, and the second is a fact. The first is just an opinion, but one that's been proven correct so far this game. I'd say you were scum if Cabd didn't investigate you. I didn't see his flip before, so I suppose that clears you. Due to that, it means you're shit town instead of scum.

Also, I told you all moz was town, but I'm not the Mason. Why didn't his Mason buddy defend him? Can anyone explain that to me? How idiotic is that? Wtf? Mason was the last thing I'd think moz would flip based on how many of you were on his wagon, without anyone actually defending him. That's just ridiculous.

I'll catch up when I get home and reevaluate, since I just read Kyouko isn't the lynch for some reason. I'll find out why later. He did defend Nos and claim he was town though, which I find odd.

I also want to check the end of D1 and see who was against the Nos wagon, which was the counter to Lapsa's. I'm willing to bet that someone pushed hard on Lapsa over Nos there, and that player is probably scum.

Also, gamma, lol! You're clearly scum, so I'm not worried. Lynch me and three town wagons won't look good for you bud. You aren't cleared like Titus.

[Tywin Lannister]

Can you stop fucking coaching scum AJ?

Explain a case on me before you call me scum. All this shit wagoning by you, gamma, etc without reasons needs to stop immediately. You've all had two chances to prove your shit method works, and it's been proven wrong twice. Time to play the game like you're supposed to if you're not scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

Honestly, at this rate, you all have a better chance of winning by voting no lynch and letting Alisae carry town to victory. The brand new player has made better decisions than all of our town leaders combined after last night. I think that goes to show something here. The only confirmed player is Titus now, so if she wants me lynched, I should be the lynch. That being said, when I flip VC like I claimed on D1, you can all blame the town loss on her.

[Tywin Lannister]

Votes like this are exactly why I have said all game that you guys don't know what you're doing. You lynch town, NEVER give reasons for your wagons, NEVER give actual cases against any player you SR, and all of your decisions have been absolutely terrible. Everyone has sheeped each other, but not a single person has objectively read the game and played it well. None of you. All the good town players have been lynched or NK'd.

I'll hammer myself when I'm L1 just to get out of this shit show. Nobody listens to my opinions anyways, because my reads are always counter to your shit wagons, not to mention that I've been railroaded by Titus ALL GAME LONG. Idk why I haven't been NK'd by Alisae (she probably thought I was the Mason for being literally the ONLY player to defend a fucking obvious town yesterday), but since I haven't been NK'd, let the predicted lynch happen quickly.

Again, I pointed out this would happen yesterday. I knew scum would quicklynch me off the shit reads of Titus. I said it yesterday, which is why I wanted Alisae to NK me instead.

Also AJ: have you not read any post I've ever made? Did you just forget everything I said at the end of D2? Is that on purpose? ISO me when you get a chance and see all the players I've called town and scum. Then after the game, see the results and compare them to Titus and others. See who was right here.

Post game, I want you all to rememver how your shit wagons and reads went, then try learning from it. It's not my job to convince you all that your reads are bad, but I've tried time and time again. I will be wagoned for doing so, but I am right. Wagon me for calling players out for not playing the game correctly, but don't blame the eventual loss on me. You sheeped the wrong players and will lose for it. Stop being sheep in future games and learn from this game.

[Tywin Lannister]

Am I L1? Hammering myself. Good luck! I said this all game and nobody listened.

[Tywin Lannister]

But he should know he doesn't win a fight with you at this point.

I win the fight by being right. Getting me lynched only proves my point. Titus is a bad player this game. She isn't in others, so if she isn't scum, then she had an absolutely terrible showing as town. It's atrocious.

[Tywin Lannister]

VOTE: Tywin

Somebody will hammer. Even if it isn't me. Peace

[Tywin Lannister]

@Tywin,

Town sucks and is lynching town.
Self fail hammers.
Can you do one reads list that isn't a blatant contradiction?

I haven't even had a chance to catch up yet. I posted during my 10 minute break and got a quick wagon for it. You want me to post reads after this? Really?

Fine.

Scummiest to Towniest top-bottom

Gamma
Pine
Sonia
AJ
Nero
Kyouko (I lowered him since people keep claiming he's not a good wagon, I haven't read why though)


For sure Town so no point in putting in above list:
Titus
Elibrin
Alisae

[Tywin Lannister]

Alisae is vig. I think Mason was Syryana's slot, because he was the only one that wasn't here during Moz's wagon. I was only one to defend moz, so it has to be Syryana.

So add the Syryana replacement to town list.

[Tywin Lannister]

Why is Elbrin lock town?

General gut read. He was my most town player D2 and j figured he'd be NK'd for it. Cabd was a surprising NK because it confirms you. Either scum made a bad move there or theres some loophole with gunsmith not finding a gun on you that allows for you to still be scum.

So yeah, Cabd NK was stupid on scum's part IMO. Can Elibrin be scum? Sure. If he is, he oculus let wouldn't NK himself. Cabd makes more sense then.

[Tywin Lannister]

Why is Elbrin lock town?

General gut read. He was my most town player D2 and j figured he'd be NK'd for it. Cabd was a surprising NK because it confirms you. Either scum made a bad move there or theres some loophole with gunsmith not finding a gun on you that allows for you to still be scum.

So yeah, Cabd NK was stupid on scum's part IMO. Can Elibrin be scum? Sure. If he is, he oculus let wouldn't NK himself. Cabd makes more sense then.

And the two wagons were Lapsa v Elbrin, with almost evety slot voting?

I remember voting Nos D1, but at the end, the mod had me still down voting for you. I thought it was a mod error, but it didn't matter IMO since Lapsa was lynched. I could be remembering it wrong, but I'm pretty sure that my vote was actually on Nos unless I changed it. I haven't gone back to check though. I did assume it was a mod error with the vote though, especially when Syryana/Sonia/etc said I voted you during D1 twilight.

[Tywin Lannister]

Anyway, Elibrin may be scum but I don't have him there. He's been too counter the usual sheep votes. He hasn't played the game safe like normal scum would. He's voted opposite of the usual suspects many times IMO. He even defended me before. Due to that, I still think he's town, but it's whatever.

[Tywin Lannister]

Anyway, Elibrin may be scum but I don't have him there. He's been too counter the usual sheep votes. He hasn't played the game safe like normal scum would. He's voted opposite of the usual suspects many times IMO. He even defended me before. Due to that, I still think he's town, but it's whatever.

^ scum defending town for brownie points ^

Can you actually play the game like you're SUPPOSED to and give reasons for calling people scum? Give a damn case already.

You've hammered town twice now, and are voting me today without a given reason. Maybe I should call you scum. Either that or you're just really bad town. Again, play the damn game the right way, or don't play the game at all.

There really is no excuse for any town player to be playing the way you all have this entire game. This isn't how you are supposed to play mafia, and it certainly isn't how you WIN when town. All votes need reasons. All wagons need cases. You don't just sheep votes and basically RVS wagon anyone not named you and call that anything but absolute shit play. Scum can play that way, because it inherently is a different game and mindset for them. They love not having to give cases or reasons for wagons. The issue is that all of you can't be scum, so town players are doing this shit too. That's the most frustrating thing in this game. It's happened all fucking game, and it isn't the right way to play. This isn't Mafia the way you're all playing as town. It's RVS YOLO fuck it mode, and it's fucking trash. It really is. That's why I hammered myself. The play of town this game has been so terrible that I've lost respect for mafiascum as a site due to it. It's that bad.

I learned Mafia over a decade ago playing on mafiascum. All of those old players are no longer around for the most part, but players like Titus should know that this isn't how the game should be played. Sheeping essentially RVS wagons for three straight days is fucking trash play, and all of you are guilty of it. The only ones who get a pass are scum for taking advantage of it, but if I was scum, I'd feel like a scum win in this game was cheapened by the terrible play of town.

I know most of you wont listen and most don't care, but you need to relearn the basic fundamentals of the game in my opinion. When a brand new player like Alisae outclasses you all in every way, there's a problem. I'm 100% serious here and not talking about this game as a player anymore, but as an observer. This style of play you guys have used is not good. It cheapens the game into being just a crap shoot without any information ever gained. How would any of you ever win in an all-VT game? Did none of you ever play newbie games to learn how to legitimately give reads, scum hunt, ask questions, analyze cases, GIVE cases, etc? Seriously, this game has been depressing as fuck for me to witness and be apart of. Nobody has been held accountable for their votes or actions, and that's why I believe town will lose. Scum haven't had to sweat it out or even try, and that's not how you win as town.

[Tywin Lannister]

Also I really don't like Kyouko. Like I don't like how fucking easily he picked up those crumbs. Honestly I never did like Kyouko.

I like you a lot more for this, plus your shot on Nos. I won't even blame you for hammering me or the other two townies. You can't change the game as a voter. Not with this town play.

What I can say is that keep this mindset and go your own way. Don't follow what these people tell you all the time, because they legitimately don't know how to play any better than you do. If it comes down to Lylo, don't sheep their votes. Think for yourself and go from there. You're a much stronger player than you've given yourself credit for, and legitimately the only reason town hasn't lost yet. Don't forget that.

Also, Kyouko is scum. Idk why anyone said he's not a lynch target, but whoever did is probably scum too. Kyouko has been scummy af all game long, and there's legitimately no reason for anyone to TR him.

[Tywin Lannister]

Alisae, what's your vig letter to Santa?

Dear Santa, I want to vig the following people:
Nero
Kyouko
Gamma

I approve of this. Wait til I flip, or don't take my opinion at all, but regardless, I agree with this list. Preferably Kyouko or gamma over Nero. I don't see much wrong with Nero compared to the others, and the fact that he was brought up by so many makes me suspicious regardless. With the reads 'town' has had all game, I think the opposite is always going to be the truth. Whoever is scum in 'towns' mind is actually town, and whoever is town in their mind is scum. That's my opinion.

[Tywin Lannister]

Also I really don't like Kyouko. Like I don't like how fucking easily he picked up those crumbs. Honestly I never did like Kyouko.

Wowee, I spotted some crumbs, it's almost like I'm paying attention to what I'm reading

Only scum seem to be doing that this game, so it doesn't help your case much.

[Tywin Lannister]

We're both the the clearest town players here, along with Elbirn,

Srsly did I get day-copped while I wasn't looking?

Moz did you not have me as scum earlier? Explain.

Mozamis and Tywin have nigh identical reads. It's kinda awkward but I'm not sure what to make of it.

Mozamis and Tywin have fucking identical reads. They both were convinced each other was town.

Aj, you've pointed this out multiple times now, but what's the point? After my flip, do you honestly believe anyone will care what reads dead townies have had? They haven't for three days now. I don't see it changing on day 4.

That being said, at least you're paying attention. I think you've moved up in my TR list. I wasn't sold on you yesterday when I voted you, but I was far more sure of Mozamis being town due to his play. I honestly have no idea how or why he was lynched. I never once saw a case on him.

Can anyone explain why Mozamis was lynched? Did anyone have a case? Elibrin switched to him without giving a reason (same as he is doing for me now and did for Lapsa as well). That doesn't look good for him. Gamma never gives reasons or cases. Nero had hammer intent without even asking Mozamis a single question.

Honestly? AJ was the only one I saw who even questioned things. Nero also said he didn't think Moz was scum, but voted him due to Moz voting elsewhere when he scum read AJ. It at least was A reason.

My lynch has quick votes without reasons as well. The only player that legitimately gave a reason to vote me has been Titus, and the reason, while not being a good one, still is legitimate. She scum read me all game, and due to our constant fighting this game, she WANTS me to be scum. Her judgement is clouded due to it, but at least it's understandable for her to wagon me.

Everyone else though? Not a single one of you has given a reason or a case to wagon me. That should concern town, and the confirmed townies need to grill players like Elibrin and Gamma for their wagoning without cases or reasons. Once I flip, you'll have nobody left to easily quicklynch, so I sure as fuck hope town starts doing actual scum hunting once they flip a third townie in a row. Again, ANYONE that wagons someone so fast and doesn't give reasons should be called suspected scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

Also I really don't like Kyouko. Like I don't like how fucking easily he picked up those crumbs. Honestly I never did like Kyouko.

Wowee, I spotted some crumbs, it's almost like I'm paying attention to what I'm reading

Only scum seem to be doing that this game, so it doesn't help your case much.

Just because you think town is playing poorly doesn't make it so. So far we're 1 for 4 on hitting scum, and scum has made mistakes too by shooting cloud. We're really not doing badly imo, especially if Titus lives

No, there's no 'we' there. Don't take credit for things you had no part in.
ALISAE is 1 for 4. Absolutely nobody else is.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin to be fair, I don't remember Lapsa having any reads.
Uzi maybe...

I remember that I voted Moz because I never liked how they responded to the wagon...OH WAIT Tywin you're right, they legit couldn't.

I'm not really worried about lapsa. The lapsa wagon was understandable for everyone really. He just seemed scummy. His play style didn't help his cause. I'm more looking at yesterday and today, and also the overall picture of how people voted and for what reasons (if any). The players who consistently didn't give reasons for three wagons (I'm including mine) should be suspect. If a player can't give reasons why they scum read and lynch someone, there's a very big problem. It usually means that problem is scum rather than town legitimately trying to lynch who they think are scum.

[Tywin Lannister]

Either way, I'm conflicted about Tywin. I'm not sure on him atm. I'm much more sure on Kyouko.

Issue is, Tywin's pushed himself into a level of WIFOM that's just harmful for the town at large.

I don't disagree here. AJ is right. I'm 'okay' with getting lynched. I knew it was inevitable since day 1. I didn't think I'd make it this far.

All I'm doing now is trying to give any information possible so that town can catch scum on Day 4 and (hopefully) past that. So after my flip, some players should be looked at for their role in my lynch, combined with their roles in the Lapsa and moz lynches. Three town lynches means people better have damn good reasons for it. If not, they've got to be considered probable scum until further notice.

Aside from that, I probably should be the lynch today. That doesn't excuse the early wagoners who didn't give reasons for their votes. A scum case on me absolutely should be given, regardless of the fact that I know I'm town. Voting me means you believe I'm scum, so give a case and put in the work to show WHY you believe that. People should never, ever be allowed to sheep wagons consistently and not be grilled for it.

[Tywin Lannister]

Ok, tywin is going to make this unreadable.

I endorse the vig pool but not opposed to Elbrin either. For the VCA.

Titus show the world your vca or eat poop

I'll do it with the flips. I need someone who actually votes.

What does any of this mean.

You're trying to indict me on vca. Show us this vca or shove it.

What? So are you saying you haven't lynched two townies so far? You're voting a third now as well. You've never given reasons for either Moz's wagon or mine. You've always joined after the lynch was a sure thing, aka the common scum spot. You never gave a case on Moz and haven't given a case on me. You didn't even give a one sentence reason for wagoning either of us. This isn't even looking at Lapsa from D1, who you also participated in.

You should shut it yourself. Nobody needs to 'prove' facts are facts. It's there for all to see. It's on you to prove you had good reasons to wagon townies and never even once scum hunt anyone.