A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Lyanna Stark]

Never fear, your Queen of Love and Beauty is here!
My presence alone should motivate you all to perform best in this tourney at King's Landing as we struggle to keep the Lannister's in power.
Wait...what the fuck?

Also, am I really to be expected to vote someone to assassinate my

son

nephew? Even the sand snakes of Dorne have a better sense of honor and duty than to participate in something as ridiculous as this. I'm not a Greyjoy after all. Well, as long as it's a venture doomed to fail, I'll

Choose: Bowen Marsh

Dolorous Edd is very very likely to be town. His Post 14 is far more likely to come from town him than scum him, especially with the follow up "What do you guys think?" I understand why some people have suspicions of him, but I haven't seen anything from him yet that raises any alarms, and between him and his hydra partner, I'm pretty confident in my ability to get an accurate read on them in time.

Starbuck looks rather town as well and the wagon on her is boring. Her beliefs on sending a townie to do the job sound very genuine and mirror my own understanding of the situation. I originally thought that it would be best to send someone who was pretty obvtown, likely to be killed night one or two and who had good instincts so as to shoot best. That way we would likely be down one scum, but then I realized that even if we choose scum to do the job, we'd still be down one scum so the #2 suspect debate makes sense in that regard. I'm still struggling to reconcile that in my head and therefore, her struggle to understand the situation and continue to argue her point of view reads town to me. I'm not sure I understand the VT claim this early, but I don't see how it would come from scum. She's played long enough to know that all is not lost in the rvs stage, so I can't see her just claiming vt to save her scum team from it.

I have a weak town read on Tyene. I don't necessarily disagree with her read on Feysal, but I do disagree with why. I, myself, wondered if this was multiball of some sort as I can't imagine a 28-person game with just one scum team. I imagine if there isn't a second scum team, there is a serial killer, so his stating his assumption without saying it's an assumption didn't strike me as off. In fact, when I read it I was glad someone else was thinking along the same lines as me. I don't read his not writing an essay explaining why he believes it to be multiball as a scum tell; in fact, I read it as a slight town tell. I don't think it's exactly fair to expect because someone is prone to writing walls that they will always write walls, and I would imagine scum-Feysal would be more cognizant of that and would write a wall explaining why it was multiball instead of overlooking it

because

it's a known part of his meta that he would be trying to match in order to avoid suspicion.

That said his choose vote on Tyene was awful in Post 39. It felt like he was looking for something to choose someone for rather than finding what someone said awkward. Tyene made a sound statement regarding town directed shots and I can't wrap my head around why Feysal felt the need to choose her for that or comment on it.

Leaning town on PlessieZar at the moment, but will hopefully get a better read when Pless starts to post. Zar's hard to read sometimes, especially day one.

I'm going to agree with Regfan on SnowStorm. His entrance was rather odd. I could imagine him feeling a little intimidated for his first game at MS, but he knows at least eight of us here quite well. He completely ignored the joke welcome vote PZ gave him and focused instead on a rather strange thing and voted Benmage. He does, however, have a tendency to garner a good amount of suspicion on day one and can get a bit intimidated, so we'll see.

My biggest scum read is on Minimum though. Think both Mina and CES were posting last night, with Mina being the one posting words and CES being the one just jumping votes.

Minimum

- Who made the first post in this game?

VOTE: Minimum

[Lyanna Stark]

So why does Minimum not have more votes at this stage?

They're a better choose vote than a vote vote. And while I may understand your reasoning of "I predict I'll die early anyway so I'll take the shot" it's not right; it's much better to be aiming at securing a suspect on that giving us what is essentially two lynches and shots at getting scum with a backup night shot if we're wrong.

Why would they be a better choose vote than lynch vote? I'm still trying to wrap my head around why it's better to choose a scum read, but if I do understand it properly, wouldn't we be better off choosing someone we're less confident in being scum and lynching someone we're more confident in being scum?

[Lyanna Stark]

Why would they be a better choose vote than lynch vote? I'm still trying to wrap my head around why it's better to choose a scum read, but if I do understand it properly, wouldn't we be better off choosing someone we're less confident in being scum and lynching someone we're more confident in being scum?

Simply put I'm not super confident that they're scum and in the case that they're not I'm very happy for those two to be controlling the vig power in comparison to a lot of other players in the room.

I guess I can see this. Probably not a decision that would have to be made today though.

Also, I just had a flash of what their qt would look like as they decided the vig shot, if town, and was sent into gigglefits.

[Lyanna Stark]

My biggest scum read is on Minimum though. Think both Mina and CES were posting last night, with Mina being the one posting words and CES being the one just jumping votes.

Presumably though "I think Mina was posting words" isn't why you have a scum read on Minimum?

Nope! That would be silly. I know that you don't presume that though and wouldn't have to ask, so I'm not quite sure the point of that particular question.

Someone posted that they thought it was just one or the other posting last night; it was a statement correcting that though I can't find who originally posted that it was just one so I can't address them specifically.

[Lyanna Stark]

Presumably though "I think Mina was posting words" isn't why you have a scum read on Minimum?

Nope! That would be silly. I know that you don't presume that though and wouldn't have to ask, so I'm not quite sure the point of that particular question

I was wondering why you have a scum read on Minimum? Obviously.

~ Pless

Nearly every post they've made has made me feel all twitchy. And the things chosen to focus on last night didn't matter at all and were odd things to choose such as the response to MoI's self-choosing and the question for why Benmage self-chose (when I think for Benmage, at least, it was pretty obvious why.)

While on the subject – what is your read on Minimum and why is it that?

Hmm. Our take on Minimum is a bit confused. I can't read CES at all, personally. But Zar tells me that he thinks CES fits his scum-meta better than his town-meta at the moment. In particular, Zar doesn't like Minimum's #21, which he reads as an attempt to sound helpful while giving bad advice (the sort of people you'd policy lynch aren't really the sort of people to trust with a free vig-kill, so the idea to make the choosing a policy-lynch seems backwards). We'd both have a better take on that slot if Mina was posting more. We think.

(Lyanna, I think it was us who speculated that Minimum was mostly/entirely CES. Mina was pretty good at signing her posts when she was a hydra in SOS -- plus, of course, Minimum's posts so far have been pretty short...).

Also, Mina and CES were both posting last night. Unless CES decided to talk about himself in the third person a couple times. Mina doesn't always sign her hydra posts and she doesn't always write walls, so those aren't good indicators of who's written posts.

Lady Stark's notions of 'honor' are quite interesting. 'Honor' is a cumbersome and inefficient thing that one is likely to die from. The Crown calls, you answer--or do you want to cause

yet another

civil war, little wolf? Why are you not Choosing someone?

A life without honor is a life not worth living

or so my brother often muses

. It's interesting that you say when the crown calls, you answer. Aren't your house words Unbowed. Unbent. Unbroken? Or is that only reserved for the true born and the sand snakes are willing to be at the Crown's beck and call? I'd say the fact that I'm helping to keep a Lannister on the throne is duty enough for me. *shudders*

I'm not choosing someone right now because

I'm busy smelling the pretty blue roses

I'm trying to wrap my head around what is the best policy for choosing. I'm still trying to reconcile what I thought was the best thing to do with the arguments made contrary to mine, and when I decide what I think is best, I'll choose.

I've played with Tammy before. She is a decent scumhunter, but gets too wrapped in emotions during the game. (A funny thing, that, as one might expect the Starks to be as dead inside as their winters.) Would I trust her with a gun N1, if she is town? Yes. Would I have her out of the game N1? Yes.

I can appreciate this, and as a side note, I'm quite self-aware and accustomed to take constructive criticism. I'll never get to the point where emotions won't play a part in my game as it's a part of who I am, but I'm not emotionally distractive or destructive in every game I'm in and am working on it overall. (Mafia behind the Maiden was a particularly bad game in that regard, and I won't pretend it wasn't though.) But thank you for saying I'm a decent scumhunter and that you would trust me with a gun night one if town (if you are town and mean that that is )

At a glance, the Salamence wagon is dull and predictable like my uncle. I have no intention to be part of it.

Just target him with whatever your ability is please, I want to get that guilty and laugh in your face.

Do you ever explain your Sala scum read? Before you say ISO...I did. I haven't found anything damning or non-Sala like.

---------------

Still have a town read on Dolorous Edd

because I don't want Regfan to make me eat another hat

. Think the argument with Starbuck is largely unproductive especially considering that my original assumption for what to do with the choose mirrors what she's suggested and I can't understand how that's being painted as scummy. I think she's gotten caught up a little too much in defending her stance and think they should both drop the issue because it's going nowhere. I still understand the suspicion on him, and can see where MoI's argument concerning the multiball suspicion is coming from, but the type of stances and assumptions that Arthur's been coming up with fit his town meta far far more than they fit his scum meta.

Dolorous Edd

I don't think Alek's been posting, or if he has it hasn't been much at all. If he hasn't posted, why not? Please have him start posting. I'd like to feel more confident on my read on you guys. Thanks.

Still have a town read on Starbuck, Pandora, MoI and leaning town on Pless, Regfan and Tyene.

[Lyanna Stark]

Why did you ask me that question if you're just going to drop it after, Tammy?

Do you ever explain your Sala scum read? Before you say ISO...I did. I haven't found anything damning or non-Sala like.

You should try ISOing him again and reading more slowly this time (noting e.g. his use of italics).

Do you mean who was the first post? Because the answer was enough for me. And that meant that most likely, your entrance into the game was your Starbuck vote, which would be a null tell as the Starbuck wagon was equal with the MoI wagon if my count is right. If the entrance to the game was you and not Mina (I'm assuming I'm talking to CES right now) then that would be weird, right? Because the vote was for BBMolla when the biggest wagon at the time was MoI.

I will re-iso him in a bit though.

[Lyanna Stark]

Do you mean who was the first post? Because the answer was enough for me. And that meant that most likely, your entrance into the game was your Starbuck vote, which would be a null tell as the Starbuck wagon was equal with the MoI wagon if my count is right. If the entrance to the game was you and not Mina (I'm assuming I'm talking to CES right now) then that would be weird, right? Because the vote was for BBMolla when the biggest wagon at the time was MoI.

Voting for MoI while also choosing him seemed a bit silly. Did the fact that I was directly contradicting the previous line not tip you off that my answer wasn't entirely serious?

CES? you're giving me a headache...don't give me a headache. I took your answer as the first person to post as Mina serious, but your answer that all of your responses were you as a joke. I took into account the fact that whoever posted first chose MoI and he was the largest wagon into account, but you? Also asked why I was suiciding in your first post and seemed to not believe tierce when she cleared up the alts. Both of those things lent belief to that being Mina last night. I still don't understand the suicide question.

But talk more!

[Lyanna Stark]

And for the record: who is Lyanna Stark?

Lyanna Stark is Eddard Stark's sister who unfortunately dies before the series starts

and might be the cause of a civil war

.

Or in more important game terms, she's Tammy.

[Lyanna Stark]

CES? you're giving me a headache...don't give me a headache. I took your answer as the first person to post as Mina serious, but your answer that all of your responses were you as a joke. I took into account the fact that whoever posted first chose MoI and he was the largest wagon into account, but you? Also asked why I was suiciding in your first post and seemed to not believe tierce when she cleared up the alts. Both of those things lent belief to that being Mina last night. I still don't understand the suicide question.

But talk more!

The idea was it would be perceived as a package deal since the joke clearly relied on me immediately contradicting myself. Doesn't work as well as I imagined in hindsight. How did the Tierce interaction suggest it was Mina?

Right, talking. Salamence's #56 really is implausibly over-the-top and him hounding people over why they're suspicious of him is weird; neither of those match what I saw of him in the last game (in which I correctly pegged him as town). I'm not really sure why people think snowstorm is town based on bringing up something weird considering the reasons for the early suspicion against him and the early-game nature of what he posted.

In hindsight probably nothing. I'm not sure why I read "we'll see" as particularly Mina-ish, but I did. What were you meaning then?

Are you saying you have a scum read on snowstorm then? If you do, why aren't you pushing it? (I don't have any read on him as he hasn't given me enough to go on yet so would be interested in why you do.)

[Lyanna Stark]

And for the record: who is Lyanna Stark?

A little wolf whose house cannot even welcome the royal family without crumbling to shambles. That would

never

happen in Dorne, with sweet Myrcella and her companions.

You're right because it definitely wasn't in Dorne that sweet Myrcella was struck in the face and lost an ear.

[Lyanna Stark]

In hindsight probably nothing. I'm not sure why I read "we'll see" as particularly Mina-ish, but I did. What were you meaning then?

Are you saying you have a scum read on snowstorm then? If you do, why aren't you pushing it? (I don't have any read on him as he hasn't given me enough to go on yet so would be interested in why you do.)

"We'll see" just meant pretty much what it says, i.e. "We'll find out if you really aren't Tammy in due time."

I do have a weak scum read on snow but I haven't really seen much reason to push it.

Okay. So, you thought that Tierce and I were playing let's switch and see who notices?

But, wait, you haven't seen much reason to push it or mention it before this. The only interaction you had with him was to tell him not to get too caught up in the flavor. Why didn't you try to interact with him to get a read on him?

[Lyanna Stark]

aaaaaand I'm already annoyed by the roleplaying.

You're boring MoS. (And for someone who tends to annoy people in games just for the fun of it a little hypocritical.)

Also, I think it's fun that we have a Starbuck and someone with a totally different name but an av of Starbuck.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay. So, you thought that Tierce and I were playing let's switch and see who notices?

But, wait, you haven't seen much reason to push it or mention it before this. The only interaction you had with him was to tell him not to get too caught up in the flavor. Why didn't you try to interact with him to get a read on him?

It was more me being generically contrarian. I totally would've been jokingly implying that if I had thought of it though.

I'm lazy and I don't particularly think it's a big deal?

You have a scum read you decided you were too lazy to pursue

Hey, D.Edd, is all the content you've been posting purely Arthur content?

Yes.

Dolorous Edd

I don't think Alek's been posting, or if he has it hasn't been much at all. If he hasn't posted, why not? Please have him start posting. I'd like to feel more confident on my read on you guys. Thanks.

I'm not sure why he hasn't posted yet

But he said he was lost in the beginning and is trying to catch up, so he should show up soon

(As a note, I'm moving in to college this week, so it's going to be hectic and stuff, so I'll be V/LA for a bit.)

Good! ^^^ And for anyone wondering a continued reason for why I'm getting a town read on Edd. Good luck moving into college Arthur!!!

This is Mina, and I've skimmed the thread on my phone during my breaks, but didn't have enough time to post before. But before I catch up more thoroughly, here's an answer to a few points and questions directed at us

in which I am the model of reasonable and composed and pretend not to hate you all as much as I do

:

1) The only posts I've written this game were this, this, and this. (Fun fact, though, Tammy--I was actually going to make my first post a vote for BBmolla, since we'd agreed to choose MagnaofIllusion, but CES ninja'd me after I spoke to him about it on AIM.)

Hey! Those were the ones I was most sure were yours.

We're not lynching Hydrina or choosing them today.

Why not?

"4) When the game has been open twenty-four hours, it's too early to base Choose or suggested vig targets based on who's not getting lynched today. (For example, I'd wager there's a very low chance that Minimum will actually get lynched today although it'll involve me failing my French test on Thursday--I start off a bit awkward sometimes, but my alignment generally shines through once I get into the game.)"

Basically this.

This gave you a town read. Heh. Everything Mina stated in her wall was likely true enough, and absolutely none of it was alignment indicative.

What are your reads, so far? ~Zar.

I think

Regfan and

Benmage look town.

I'm also getting townish vibes from Tyene and MoI. I think Feysal and Starbuck looked townish, they were getting some heat but I didn't find them suspicious.

I'm hesitant in giving D.Edd/Arthur a town read. His play seems to fit his usual town play, though he seems somewhat different. It's been harder for me to get a good read on him ever since he

turned to the dark side

started playing here.

I'm having a hard time getting a read on Minimum. The idea I have of Mina's town play is that I usually agree with her and get early town reads on her, which hasn't happened in this game, though I don't think she has posted much? As for CES, I don't really know how to read him and the freshest memory I have of his play is when he managed to survive a whole game as scum without doing anything but voting without reason. So, I'm kinda worried about them, I'd like to see more from Mina.

These are all just general impressions from the top of my head. I don't have any real scum-reads, most of the players haven't made any impression on me and I need to do some re-reads and ISO's.

SnowStorm it must suck to come to MS and have your first role pm be scum. So, Benmage looks town to you does he? *glances up at vote count* Can you explain why you're still voting him then?

Is everyone pretty much null to you SnowStorm? Not one person you want to vote for and press

besides the one you just called town

? None?

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh Alek. You're not really doing anything for the town read I gave to Arthur.

[Lyanna Stark]

I hated how he come right in and started defending Feynal...reeks of scumbuddies...

So I say we lynch one and send the other to the wall

Also,

Snow and Refgan are town, obviously so, I know Snow it wayy to awkward as scum to be posting this much and Refgan hates being scum and tends to over lurk alot, I know meta boo, w/e

So, is there anything in Pandora's play that suggests they're scum?

Why do you have a scum read on Feysal?

And you've just defended SnowStorm. Am I supposed to assume you are his scumbuddy because you defended him?

[Lyanna Stark]

Good! ^^^ And for anyone wondering a continued reason for why I'm getting a town read on Edd. Good luck moving into college Arthur!!!

Why don’t you explain how what you quoted in Post 333 should explain your Town-read on Dol Edd because I don’t see much in the way of alignment relevant information in the quoted post.

Nothing I can really vocalize. I know it seems a little silly, but I would expect a different type of response from him if he were scum. That being said, his other head posted.

Aaand the major hydra dissonance just showed that Edd is (are?) town (again).

Can't say I agree with this. The hydra dissonance displayed by Pandora earlier seemed very natural; that's a town-tell, sure. But the Alek/Arthur dissonance? Meh.

Individual scumhunting from Arthur/Alek. They're likely wrong in their top scumspects, but the way their reads differ don't really speak of someone who's bothering to check with their buddy to make sure they don't mess up their reads or accidentally write themselves into a corner. I'd like them to patch it up, as with Pandora, but initially? Alek came in and threw down reads with major disregard for what Arthur had already said. Yes, this is a towntell from them.

That might be a town tell for a lot of people, and the hydra might be town. However, this is not a town tell for those two particular people. Staeg mentioned how this was already called a town tell for Pandora, so it doesn't really apply the second time. And, well, this is Alek and Arthur, so it's not exactly a towntell

from them

Tammy, Tierce: Roleplaying is okay, your fighting against each other, your jabs and all, do they have a purpose, or are they just a nice reminder that you dislike each other? If they are pointless can they stopp, they become a distrection I think.

Yes, it serves a purpose. We're having a bit of fun. We tend to but heads but I don't dislike Tierce and that's not what this is about. She's a Sand Snake from Dorne and while her house may have never bowed to the throne, it's a vastly inferior place than the north.

SnowStorm it must suck to come to MS and have your first role pm be scum. So, Benmage looks town to you does he? *glances up at vote count* Can you explain why you're still voting him then?

Is everyone pretty much null to you SnowStorm? Not one person you want to vote for and press

besides the one you just called town

? None?

Yup, I think he's town. Yup, my vote stayed on him. Obviously, when I called him town, that vote lost it's power, so it was basically the same as unvoting. But, unvoting is boring, since it doesn't allow for this kind of situation...

I'm kind of surprised that you, of all people, picked on this. You've seen me do it before, more than once, this is something I usually do when I have no suspects. Also, you usually pay attention to this kind of stuff and I never expected this reaction from you.

Hmm...this is the only post you have made today and I don't like your response. I didn't pick up on this only for you keeping your vote on Ben. I've done a similar thing a ton of times. I've voted someone and decided they're town but not unvoted them. I don't think it's inherently scummy, but when I've done it I've usually made an announcement that that is what I have done and that I will move it when I decide who it's going to go onto if I for whatever reason don't unvote (but that's usually when we're nearing deadline and I'm actively searching for someone to vote instead.)

And, this is the problem I'm having is that you're not actively looking for suspects; you're not actively engaging with anyone in the game really. You picked up on the Ben issue and I have no problem with that, but that is pretty much all you have done other than discuss theory. And then you gave a few townish reads and said that there was pretty no scum reads, basically you nulled everyone. The manner in which you gave your reads was rather stilted as well. All of this made me suspicious. If it were just the vote, and you were being active in the game, I probably wouldn't have even noticed.

I don't know why you wouldn't expect the reaction you got from me. You've seen me point out things that I don't like and question people about things numerous times before.

-------

Dolorous Edd

Why do you have a weak scum read on Plessiezarus? Also, why is SnowStorm null. (obv I'm asking the Arthur head on that.)

Sorry

Promise me Ned? Promise you what? That'd I'd delete your posts on the wrong account? Sure thing, sister!

[Lyanna Stark]

Also,

Let look at the odds...

Why should we choose someone who is town? They are more likly to hit town then scum right?

So why not use this has what is really is a second lynch they has a payment..

We lynch the strongest scum read and send the second strongest to die at the wall..

this increases are chances of hitting scum them giving it to a strong town read and lett him make a guess and end up hitting town..

Does this make sens to anyone else, or all you really all that dense?

I'm trying to figure out what you're doing here. If it's a bit of nervous posturing, you might want to stop as it's not doing you any favors and is going a long way to destroy the town vibes Arthur gave your hydra.

Aww love you too lynna

Assume what you want... I do alot..

Really Pandora just looks bad, from his first post at how he defended the whole multiball slip from fenyal to attaking Arthur for"bandwagon hopping" when Arthur was one of the first two ont he wagon.. go figure huh..

I agree with Aruther that the whole multi-ball comment was off, I agree with Arthur that he looks scummy becasue of it

Why does he look scummy because of it? Several people have defended the multi-ball slip, I have even. Is everyone scummy for defending it?

Later Folks take care and find that scum

This is rubbing me all kinds of the wrong way, Alek.

[Lyanna Stark]

Please, by all means, go on believing that makes her look town or whatever, but like Tammy said (I think?), there is not one thing that can be used as alignment indicative.

Just ftr, sucking on Day1 is not a reason for you not being lynched.

Neither is having a meta of acting scummy.

But tell me, what was your read on them before that?

Because unless you seeked council from the oracle of delphi, I really don't see how that post could've at all changed your thought at all...

Then you either didn't read it, or you've never played with Mina. Simple as that.

Actually it's not as simple as that; he's played with Mina and seen her as both alignments. I'm the one who made the statement originally he's agreeing with; Mina, herself, would probably tell you there was nothing alignment indicative in that. Anyone can say, I'm busy but I'll obvtown myself later. And, I'm not saying I disbelieve Mina as I know she has a French test coming up (Good luck Mina, by the way!), but saying it isn't alignment indicative. If she obvtowns herself, then she does, but her saying she can isn't alignment indicative.

(Also, Hyperion is GreatJim on the Westeros site, right? Don't really understand the meta-based scum read on him, if that's the case.)

Don't know if anyone answered this, but yes, Hyperion is GreatJim. Oh wait I remember Regfan posting a link to a game they played in on site.

Regfan

- Hyperion was Olivia Dunham in the Fringe game. He was also Aviendha in the WoT game.

BB

- You "played" in the Fringe game right? Did you see Hyperion vote me because I suggested a policy lynch on someone as a very obvious joke early day one? He was the one who gave me a flow chart of scumminess when I asked him about it.

I'm not ready to give Hyperion a town read, but he's a newer player who sometimes jumps on minor things that aren't very scummy and calls them scummy and that should be taken into account. So, it's very much within his play and experience level to not realize that BB was doing a reaction test that is not scummy in and of itself, especially since that's not a typical practice at our site.

I've explained the town-read on Edd already but lets put it this way; I have meta on the posting head, Tammy also has a lot of meta on that posting head, everything they've done ressembles their town play quite strongly and I really suggest you give that a lot of weight. Also their early comments about the usage of the choose is very town and the pointing out of the Feysal 'slip' is a big town-tell as is the fact that their posts and scumhunting show a lot of consideration.

From what I could see, there were about two sentences, mostly saying that Edd would do what you would do, and you liked a couple things that he did(which you repeat here). The meta argument does absolutely nothing for me without you elaborating. I could say "My meta on people posting the way Edd does makes me think he's scum" and it means absolutely nothing. I can't give weight to you saying that his meta resembles his town play because of that.

I know that Reg gives you more input on this, but here's the thing about Arthur. Arthur has a tendency to get overeager and overzealous in a way that usually garners him a bit of suspicion...well a lot here. He jumps to horrible conclusions sometimes about what makes people likely to be scum, has a tendency to not read things, and base his conclusions on that. (Once he tried to lynch me for rping during the rvs stage of a theme I enjoyed and then getting serious once we got out of it because it was scum being nervous or something.) It's frustrating as hell sometimes, and believe it or not he's getting better. He tends to spam threads and sometimes acts in a little overaggressive ways because he feels like he gets the best reads when he gets people to express anger/frustration/etc. He has a tendency to think his reads are rock solid and has a really hard time articulating why he has the reads he has though sometimes he has really good reads.

There's a way that he interacts with people when he's town from when he's scum that's a bit different. He's only been scum three times I believe, and it's been rather awkward when he has. Here's his most recent scum attempt if you like meta http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4251258 As scum he generally goes between an overaggressiveness that is combined with a weird over angry attitude but becomes complacent immediately and backs down when called out. Basically he's very self-conscious in a way when scum that he's not when town.

I've only seen a couple of slight things that have given me slight pause when reading him which gives me a good feeling overall. That being said, his other head posted. Alek gave me far more bad feelings than Arthur did, but I still think that given time to interact with them I can get an accurate read on the entire hydra. I'm pretty sure I've been the driving force behind lynching Alek all but one of the times he's been scum when we've played together and that was mainly because I was focusing on his partner and got night killed before I could broaden my suspicions. Alek has a tendency to come across extremely suspicious though, so sometimes it's harder to get a town read on him unless he drops strong town tells.

That not but the defence of "I am so scummy, I can't be scum" is still worst.
So beeing unhelpful und checky is now a towntell?
Shadow try another explanation?

How about the explanation of, the game isn't even 3 (real) days old and people are trying to actually use limited amount of interaction in a 28 player game to pinpoint behavior as either 'scummy' or 'town', as if the game has been going on for weeks, or some mystical mindset is able to actually tell you I am scum, much in the way I've been called out for calling Mina town (which I never actually said she was, just that she shouldn't be lynched because Mina is easy to read in later days).

I haven't even properly read the whole thread, I just find it amusing that we have MoI and others trying to throw their weight around so early when no one knows jack shit for any reason on day one. Deal with it.

Okay two things. Do you actually believe that Mina is so easy to read? Because I'm not sure where you're going with this. Mina is fairly readable, but she can play a decent scum game when she wants to. But you're acting like Mina fumbles along like an idiot when she's scum spilling so many scum tells it'll be obvious. If that were true, Plessiezarus wouldn't have added that they *think* they would have a better read of minimum if Mina started posting.

Second - I remember you in GvE having a couple of scum reads on day one. CooLDog especially, so I'm trying to figure out why you keep preaching that there's nothing to know.

And, for the record, I've been able to get some decently strong and accurate reads day one.

CES, I don't find anything in your posts even slightly town, convince me I'm wrong?

I'm being far too lazy to be scum.

PFFT. Reckoner was too lazy to be scum in Scummies too...wait. Also, are you going to say you're random vote hopping as scum in the WoT game was you being active and not lazy?

I'm mildly... not suspicious, I guess, but... troubled? by the fact that snowstorm doesn't want to read the previous games to "keep an objective PoV," when he has already played with about 1/3 of the playerlist on the Westeros forums.

I'm reading SnowStorm as scum, but I want to interject here a bit because it makes sense to me why he wouldn't. At Westeros, we always play behind alts. There are very very few times we play altless. We also have quite strict meta rules. We can't out another person's alt or our own. Sure, we have codes and things to get around some of the rules when we have meta reasons for why we read people the way we do, but we can't use that as part of our cases or arguments at all. You know how people go, "In GvE, you behaved this way, so I believe xyz here?" We can't do that there. So, because we are accustomed to play without meta - and our hilariously bad altguesses of each other has hindered games in the past - it makes perfect sense why SnowStorm wouldn't want to read any past games to get an unobjective PoV because that's how we're conditioned to play this game.

-------

WELCOME AMRUN :CARTWHEELS:

[Lyanna Stark]

PFFT. Reckoner was too lazy to be scum in Scummies too...wait. Also, are you going to say you're random vote hopping as scum in the WoT game was you being active and not lazy?

Yeah, Reck is pretty uncool (it should be fairly obvious this tell isn't supposed to apply to everyone?). And the WoT thing was me being overwhelmed, not lazy.

Overwhelmed? I'm not following. It's not like you're new to the game.

[Lyanna Stark]

Overwhelmed by the pace.

I thought this was pretty obvious. Then again, not that surprising that Tammy can't understand basic implications when she's trying really hard to paint someone as scummy.

Do you even know what you're talking about?

[Lyanna Stark]

Overwhelmed by the pace.

I thought this was pretty obvious. Then again, not that surprising that Tammy can't understand basic implications when she's trying really hard to paint someone as scummy.

Do you even know what you're talking about?

I mean because if you knew anything about me or what we're talking about, you'd know I'm trying to determine someone's alignment not paint anyone to be any way. It's probably hard to get that when you barely read the thread though.

[Lyanna Stark]

(By the way, Tammy, you could at least have the courtesy to pretend that you're so paranoid of me because I'm a master of manipulation or something, rather than "Mina is easy to read, but her posts up to now have still been alignment-null." )

(Also, I've still got no studying done whatsoever for my French test this evening.)

Did I say that? I responded to someone who said you were easy to read with that you were fairly readable but could play a decent scum game when you wanted to. I know you can play a good game and be manipulative when you want. Besides, I don't think you're

that

easy to read.

And good luck on your test!

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm reading SnowStorm as scum, but I want to interject here a bit because it makes sense to me why he wouldn't. At Westeros, we always play behind alts. There are very very few times we play altless. We also have quite strict meta rules. We can't out another person's alt or our own. Sure, we have codes and things to get around some of the rules when we have meta reasons for why we read people the way we do, but we can't use that as part of our cases or arguments at all.

With all the talk of meta from Westeros games I felt like I was missing out on something, but apparently not. If that is how mafia is played there, I will never set foot in the place.

Well it definitely isn't for everyone. Our games are extremely fast paced, with 32 hour days and 2-8 hour nights and games last about a week. Last week day one produced 35 pages of content in a 32 hour day. It's pretty demanding but provides a different skill set of sorts, maybe. We might privately know, by meta, why people are their alignment but the rules force us to focus on the behavior publicly, for the most part. Their are pros and cons to both, but it works for us. It's how I learned to play, so I like it.

Feysal - You said you have a town read of Magna mostly because he's making sense and not being as confrontational. You're not the least bit paranoid about him?

[Lyanna Stark]

BB - You "played" in the Fringe game right? Did you see Hyperion vote me because I suggested a policy lynch on someone as a very obvious joke early day one? He was the one who gave me a flow chart of scumminess when I asked him about it.

Nope. I didn't.

(I wouldn't really call myself playing as much as throwing it. )

Does he have a history of skimming posts too?

That was why I used the scare quotes . He doesn't so much have a history of skimming posts so much as sometimes latching onto odd things to find them scummy with a conviction that's kind of off. The alts have changed and I'm too lazy to hunt down his attempt at scum before Mina replaced him, but I think more than one post is needed to determine whether or not he's scum or he's just acting like he normally does.

Liked

Edd

's earlier posts, didn't like his attack on Starbuck, and have kind of skimmed over his later posts, so it's tempting to take the Westeros crew's word that he's playing like town Arthur (I don't think I'm as familiar with Ser-Arthur's meta as everyone else is).

While I thought (and think) that Arthur's first posts are very much in line with his play as town in previous (Westeros) games, I'd note that he's only been evil once (as far as I can remember?). Some of his (and Alek's) later posts have struck me the wrong way.
Pless

He's been evil now three times as he's played it twice here. Here's a link to his most recent scum game that I know of. We were lover partners in this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4251258

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hyperion

I'd like some reasons for this vote, please. Oh, if it's Alek who voted, please make sure it's Alek who gives the reasons, Thanks. Also, Alek, I'm waiting on you to finish explaining to me why Pandora is scummy for defending the Feysal multiball comment when others have defended it as well.

I'm reading SnowStorm as scum, but I want to interject here a bit because it makes sense to me why he wouldn't. At Westeros, we always play behind alts. There are very very few times we play altless. We also have quite strict meta rules. We can't out another person's alt or our own. Sure, we have codes and things to get around some of the rules when we have meta reasons for why we read people the way we do, but we can't use that as part of our cases or arguments at all. You know how people go, "In GvE, you behaved this way, so I believe xyz here?" We can't do that there. So, because we are accustomed to play without meta - and our hilariously bad altguesses of each other has hindered games in the past - it makes perfect sense why SnowStorm wouldn't want to read any past games to get an unobjective PoV because that's how we're conditioned to play this game.

Uhh... Snowstorm definitely did not give me this impression when he said

The idea I have of Mina's town play is that I usually agree with her and get early town reads on her, which hasn't happened in this game, though I don't think she has posted much? As for CES, I don't really know how to read him and the freshest memory I have of his play is when he managed to survive a whole game as scum without doing anything but voting without reason. So, I'm kinda worried about them, I'd like to see more from Mina.

Yes, Mina and CES play at Westeros - well CES has played a couple - and he has also played scumchat games with them, so he already has an idea of how he views them as players. Having experience with someone because you've played with them and know their style is very different from researching people's meta by reading games you have no involvement with.

Dolorous Edd

Why do you have a weak scum read on Plessiezarus? Also, why is SnowStorm null. (obv I'm asking the Arthur head on that.)

They mostly seem like they are snipping from the sidelines and nitpicking here and there to look like they are contributing and staying active, but at the same time they are really not taking strong stances nor expressing strong opinions. Pless is always more of an attacker as town, and I don't remember Zar being this much middle-of-the-roadish either.

Okay. Why is SnowStorm null? I don't agree with either of your assessments of Pless or Zar. I just iso'd them both, and while I agree that Zar is hard to get a read on early game because he tends to hold his reads and watch, I'm not finding him being middle-of-the-roadish or engaging in the behaviors that I typically associate with Zarscum. I don't know that you can say Pless is

always

anything either, as he played differently in the two most recent games we all played in together. One he attacked and questioned a lot but the other he did a lot of sitting back and commenting on a variety of things.

Edd, give an example of a post where it feels like they're "sniping from the sidelines."

Spoiler:

I haven't had a chance to discuss my impressions yet with Pless, so this content is 100% Zar. I'm agreeing with Regfan on Molla looking townish, especially based on his early entrance.

Dolorous Edd is a Hydra composed of two Westerosi players known to be somewhat batshit, so the explosion of chaotic reasoning coming from them does not seem scummy to me. Especially after just reading #73 and realizing all of the content has been coming from Arthur.

Regfan's contribution to the discussion feels more likely to come from a town mindset. While logical =/= town, Regfan's post does seem contrived or grasping for things that aren't there.

@shadoweh: As much as I'm annoyed at SB for doing what she did, her logic doesn't really strike me as coming from scum. Sure, I get the 1 - 1 trade-off that has been explained in thread, but I empathize on how a town-aligned player would think this could be a idea, as it was also my reaction when it was proposed.


~Zar.

While on the subject – what is your read on Minimum and why is it that?

Hmm. Our take on Minimum is a bit confused. I can't read CES at all, personally. But Zar tells me that he thinks CES fits his scum-meta better than his town-meta at the moment. In particular, Zar doesn't like Minimum's #21, which he reads as an attempt to sound helpful while giving bad advice (the sort of people you'd policy lynch aren't really the sort of people to trust with a free vig-kill, so the idea to make the choosing a policy-lynch seems backwards). We'd both have a better take on that slot if Mina was posting more. We think.

(Lyanna, I think it was us who speculated that Minimum was mostly/entirely CES. Mina was pretty good at signing her posts when she was a hydra in SOS -- plus, of course, Minimum's posts so far have been pretty short...).

No, I haven't read any games modded by Eddard Stark.

Oh. You should? Or skim them, maybe. A lot of the people in this game were in one or more of them, so it might give you a good read on people you've not seen before. Plus they're quite fun to read?

~ Pless

SnowStorm's vote for Benmage would have seemed odder, to me, if he then claimed to have read some of the previous games.

Why?

I don't really think you're asking me this because you want to hear an answer, for some reason . But if you really do need it spelled out, then: SnowStorm comes from a site where policy lynches are frowned on (or at least nobody admits to pushing them). This would make his vote for Benmage somewhat understandable, given the post he responds to. If he'd claimed to have read previous games, however, he would presumably know not to be surprised by it (and that first post would be harder for him to justify).

CES? you're giving me a headache...don't give me a headache. I took your answer as the first person to post as Mina serious, but your answer that all of your responses were you as a joke.

The idea was it would be perceived as a package deal since the joke clearly relied on me immediately contradicting myself. Doesn't work as well as I imagined in hindsight.

I got it. It was

annoying and unhelpful

very droll.

@Dolorous Edd

: I don't understand where your votes are coming from.

[...]

I'd like to know your own thoughts on the people you underlined in 212 also. What category would you put them in?

Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer? Did you just pick some names to underline at random so you could be seen to be active and scumhunting and stuff?

Get Alek to answer that, if you can, he's a better liar than you.

(Oh, and good luck with your move to college .)

~ Pless

I have a growing pool of strong town reads right now, very confident that on top of Pandora, Tyene and Ed [...]

We're a bit confused about why you have a strong town-read on Tyene . You seem to have decided on this pretty quickly; have recent posts reinforced this impression, or was your initial town-read just that strong to begin with?

(Also, Hyperion is GreatJim on the Westeros site, right? Don't really understand the meta-based scum read on him, if that's the case.)

I tottally agree with Zar though I am batshit, but don't listen to plessie i am a very bad liar

I never suggested you were a good liar, only that you were better at it than Arthur ...

(But that was mostly an attempt to goad you into posting, of course.)

Oh Alek. You're not really doing anything for the town read I gave to Arthur.

This was my gut reaction also.

Aaand the major hydra dissonance just showed that Edd is (are?) town (again).

Can't say I agree with this. The hydra dissonance displayed by Pandora earlier seemed very natural; that's a town-tell, sure. But the Alek/Arthur dissonance? Meh.

It would also be nice if hydra were to sign their posts.

I assume that Edd's most recent post is Arthur again?

~ Pless

Could you expand on how you view any of that as sniping from the sidelines?

Why would anyone suspect this to be multiball? The last Game of Thrones mafia wasn't. Scumslips are still stupid and never work, the people most likely to mention the dreaded M-Word first seem to be town not worried about tripping the wire. I consider this a double lynch that gives the second suspect a vengekill.

Vote: Dolorous Edd

Choose: Minimum

PS: Maybe he wanted it secret when he was just alting but I had no intention of being a secret hydra. SORRY QUILLY. He was like hey we never do anything together anymore wanna hydra and I was like okay and he was like how about this game of thrones game and I was like but Tierce isn't in it and then it turned out she was in it so Yay! The end. I will not remember to sign posts but I like to think I'm distinctive right?

@ Plezz/Zar

This is the post that makies me uneasy...

His first post in the game he come right out and attacks arthur over the multiball issue...

His first paragraph feels forced and defenisve, even though he wasn't even being attacked..Also notice the use of "Scum slips are useless and never work?"

I have seen them work before and I believe as scum they would want to push that idea so people would be less confidant..

But if scum slips don;t work, How do town slips work? it is a two way street, I don;t see how you can have one without the other..

Nut this whole post felt off too me

You suspect Pandora for talking about the uselessness of scum slips? This is probably a stance that he takes regardless of alignment; in fact, it's a stance that I take. The majority of things that people go aha scum slip over are usually nothing more than human slips and get people mislynched far more often than not.

Let's put this multiball "scumslip" thing in perspective. A few weeks ago we played in a game together in which I belonged to one of the scum factions. Now I believed until day 6 that there were two scum factions. After the three kills is when I learned there were actually three factions. Faraday's team learned on day 3 that there were three factions, and I think Mina's team learned on day 4. None of the members of either of their teams so much as speculated that there was a third team because to do so would have outed them, so they were careful not to.

If Feysal were scum, he would be more likely to be careful in the first few posts of the game to not speculate on something that he had inside knowledge of. That he talked about the possibility of multiball doesn't mean he for sure slipped as scum. And people who are claiming that it's bs that people are calling it a scum slip don't have to be scum either.

Town slips have to be put into perspective as well. When you thought Faraday had an innocent on you when you believed he was a cop, that was a genuine town slip that spoke to your confusion and it was natural. But, people make fake town slips as scum all the time.

Plssie/Zar,

obviously you short term memory is wacky

has I just played a game with Regfan in Westeros so yes IU have and I believe his confidence here is different then then..

Defintly feels genuine and town too me so far..

I got too go so I will finish reading later

Remember when I said you were going a long way to destroy the town vibes Arthur was giving your hydra? Yeah, you keep knocking off town notches. I don't know if it's because you're getting cocky because you finally won a scum game or you just think that insulting people for no reason makes you look town, but either way you might want to rethink your approach.

[Lyanna Stark]

I
Pless, Hyperions game on-site here isn't that old at all, in fact it's relatively recent and I don't think his D1 play in Fringe was bad at all, I liked it and don't see any similarity there to here so not understanding how you find it the same.

Oh yeah, this is right. He disagreed with me when I was reading him as scum due to his early day one play.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay First thing what does V/LA mean excatly, I assume somthing about not being able to play much as both Arthur and Hyperion have used that same thin in reference to leaving..

@Pless

I can;t explain Aruthur's vote for Hyperion mainly becuse I disagree with it as he is null for me and with 5 posts not really much to go on i say

But I do know he feels that Hyperion is scummy for sotmhong i think :\

Also, Lyanna/ Tammy is right she does get me lynched alot so she is a good judge of meta on me..

Also, I say that I have not read another of Refgan's other games but the one I have played with him feels different to me, totally looks genuie, if you don;t believe meta then call it a gut feeling as that might describe it better..

As for you, I haven't played with Zar much as he mods just about every game On Westeros..

But I do believe that Arthur is right in that Pless you seem to be more agressive and like to force your opinions on others, but I havnt seen you as evil yet so I can't rely on that

@MoI What where your questions and who were they for Alek or Arthur?

This feels more genuine.

(Also, everyone should reevaluate/recheck their read on Regfan. I got bad vibes from his ISO. I think because he came into the game strongly, people assumed right away he’s town [me included]. Seems like his posts of summaries/reads on a lot of players strike me of what I tend to do as scum (see example). OTOH, I’m not familiar with Regfan-meta too much, so I’m not sure if he tends to do this as town.)

Did you get a bad feeling of Regfan because people were pressing your hydra about it? Regfan's meta is actually to give detailed reads of people, so this isn't actually out of the ordinary for him. However, he is actually good at scum, though he hates it. But, giving a list of his reads isn't a scum tell for Regfan at all.

[Lyanna Stark]

Nope, that was just me being a dick to Tammy. Sorry about that.

You're a scholar and a gentleman.

[Lyanna Stark]

So, uh, you guys just gonna get a room sometime soon?

[Lyanna Stark]

And the languagebarrier is only my fault, not yours. If it is to difficult I will replace out. (Yes that was about her scumread on me)

No, please don't. Your English is fine.

Page 1, I know, but it sounded like possible rolefishing. What were you expecting for an answer? "Yes, all the people with alts are using their actual rolenames from the game"?

It was more annoyance with the alts and how useless they are in this situation, simply causing me to have to keep checking the front page to remember who is who.

Pfft. You and MoS are no fun. It's not like you can't already tell who Tierce and I are by our posts.

Personally, I learned that posting alot makes me scummy, and I am trying to get better at my posting rate and scumhunting, most of which I haven't done much.

Posting a lot doesn't make you scummy Sala. I remember telling you that if you could take a breath and think before you posted in NY1352 that things could be so much better, but you had a *freeness* in your posting there that you don't really have here. It doesn't have anything to do with how often you post, but the feeling of your posts that feels off.

Whee, I'm seeing

Wicked

tonight! (It's pretty easy to guess whether this is Mina or CES based on who would be excited by this and who wouldn't be caught dead in the theatre.)

*Cue fangirl excitement here* I saw

Wicked

in London and am going to see it in a few months on Broadway. I effing love

Wicked.

/fangirl excitement.

Please explain this bit, little wolf.

CES already explained it accurately. Both Arthur and Alek are rather impulsive. I wouldn't expect either of them to be communicating with each other and clearing their reads with one another scum or town.

If it's a bit of nervous posturing, you might want to stop as it's not doing you any favors and is going a long way to destroy the town vibes Arthur gave your hydra.

Why would you say this...? The way you deal with Alek is weird, it comes across as "watch it, I'm getting a bit of a scumread on you", and my brain just goes and tacks "stop it before I have to bus" to the end of your sentences. Why the kid gloves?

But, you don't actually think that do you? Because you have us both in your town reads. You should read everything I've said about the hydra. I've played with both heads since they started playing the game. Arthur's much more experienced that Alek, and I knew Arthur before he started playing mafia, so I can usually read him pretty well - that and I can be a bit protective of people I know. Right now I'm dealing with the hydra the only way I know how. If they were separate, I'd probably be town reading Arthur and be ready to lynch Alek because he's reading far more closely to his scum self than his town self. But they're a hydra, so it's a balancing act. Alek just recently won a scum game, which might be the reason for his strange cockiness or it could be the influence of the hydra and him adopting a bit of Arthur's personality, which is making him come across unnaturally. Honestly, I haven't decided which it is yet, but I think I can figure it out if given some time. So, the way I'm dealing with them is part me trying to read them the best way I know how and part me giving advice. (As far as kid gloves: I'm not sure of their alignment. If I had a strong scum read, I'd be going after them hard. Right now, I'm feeling it out.)

Cerywn's Bible anyone?

1. So, you've decided it's multi-ball? and 2.) A little too early to be pulling out the activity chart

No, it means I'll be able to read them better once there's more than meta to work with, like a lynch...

Your passive stance is out of character though.

Why aren't you questioning players? Isn't there anything that you have found odd this far in game?

Umm, it's not. I'm really not an aggressive player; I only get aggressive when more aggressive players aren't playing, like in smaller games and later game days (or when someone really annoys me...). As for odd things, yeah, I've found some but I need to do some re-reading. I don't want to start asking about things that have already been explained or that are from a different player, I need to make sure the odd things are really odd. And I'm not talking about anything specific here, just in general.

Snow, you might not be an aggressive player but you usually have opinions to offer. I've been holding off on voting you because I've been waiting on

something

to show me I shouldn't. I mean I remember one game where you weren't necessarily aggressive nor did you contribute a whole lot, but you read the game and voted for someone and claimed it was the scummiest group of posts you'd seen all game. You were right and were a big reason we lynched scum on day one in that game, so while I could understand you not being a big presence, I would expect opinions of some sort, which you usually have. That you haven't, at all, is what makes me so suspicious of you.

[Lyanna Stark]

Just subbed in, anyone wanna give me a general overview of what's happened? Other than that I'll probably re-read and get fully caught up tomorrow.

##Unvote:

##Unchoose:

Yeah, make this easy and tell us who your partners are

-------------

The MoS and Tierce stuff is a bit boring. Besides me a getting a gut distancing dance blaring through the thread, I don't know why he'd as scum make a terrible case on Tierce for no reason. I remember reading the scum qt from GvE and MoS was telling the others to calm down their crap cases because things like that was bringing them notice for no reason. He used as an example him giving obvtown me crap. I would think that scum him on day one would be a little more cognizant of that. (I'm not even sure if I understand what is going on with MoS and Tierce right now and should probably give up, NOT play mafia drunk, and go to bed.)

[Lyanna Stark]

I
Don't worry, Lady Stark, you'll get your rubies.

Yep, and you know it was my name that spilt from his lips that day at the trident and not you're sickly aunt.

[Lyanna Stark]

Cerywn's Bible anyone?

Hmm?

"In a game with 2 evil factions, an evil player who knows he can be killed by the other team will tend to avoid a leadership position, and avoid showing himself to be among the best players, because he doesn't want to be killed. He'll be more under the radar - he doesn't have to be the quietest...he just needs to be less aggressive and less of a threat than some of the other players."

So evil players in multiball tend to be in the middleish suspicious/lurkish. They don't want to be too suspicious because they can easily get lynched, yet at the same time they don't want to look too townish, because they can get killed by other scum. Thus,this theory would eliminate (or at least lessen) people like Benmage, Tyene, Regfan, and Pandora from the scum pool. And at the same time people like Jal, Sala, Plum, Mockingjay, Hyper would lean more towards scum who are trying to blend in based on their early start actions.

Pless already responded to this, but it's not just at game's start, it's based on activity level and contribution over the course of the days (and can't even really be broached until near deadline of the first day) AND most importantly it applies when everyone is aware that it's multiball.

[Lyanna Stark]

Pless already responded to this, but it's not just at game's start, it's based on activity level and contribution over the course of the days (and can't even really be broached until near deadline of the first day)

AND most importantly it applies when everyone is aware that it's multiball.

Umm, objection? I think it applies even better when only scum know it's multiball, no?

Wait, so what you are telling me is that you want to apply a theory of scum detection in a multiball game to

this game

before we actually know that it's multiball while at the same time thinking someone is scum for saying it's multiball? A theory, which as you've described and applied it, demonstrates that you don't have a really good understanding of the theory, how to apply it, or how it takes more far more work to determine who does or doesn't fit the profile?

Regardless, it can't be applied right now anyway, so this is unproductive.

[Lyanna Stark]

Just subbed in, anyone wanna give me a general overview of what's happened? Other than that I'll probably re-read and get fully caught up tomorrow.

##Unvote:

##Unchoose:

Yeah, make this easy and tell us who your partners are

Silly. You know who they are.

So why the minimum wagon? I'll ISO later today but I'm about to sleep cause I haven't in like 28 hours or something silly. Cause work.

I like this. You sound relaxed.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay so, new semester starts tomorrow and I'm covering another instructor's courses in addition to my own this week. I never know how the first week is going to go, so my activity probably won't be that great this week. I'm not v/la or anything, just might not be very active for a few days.

I originally liked Shinori's entrance to the game because he seemed relaxed. He's a bit nervous as scum, so I think he'll be easier to read as he posts more, but I'm not a fan at all of Post 636

I'm waffling a bit on minimum. I still feel like their posts are off, and while I don't know if I want them lynched I don't feel comfortable moving my vote at this moment. I need to think about this a bit. I'm not sure if I'm paranoid about that slot because right now I'm just paranoid of the slot or if I legitimately think they're scum here. I'm not a big fan of Post 641 because some of it felt off. The "thanks now you've guaranteed we'll get lynched" didn't exactly sit right since it was at complete odds with her earlier acknowledgment that she has a tendency to start awkwardly but is able to let her obvtownness shine through and was confident that she wouldn't end up getting lynched. We're a week from deadline, 5 people have replaced out, there are several others who are lurking or providing little content who are raising suspicions and enough people voicing opposition to the minimum lynch that the guarantee statement seems off. And I agree with Pless/Zar (?) who said that the unedited version would have had a better impact maybe. Her Post 643 similarly felt a bit off but does come far closer to what I would expect from Mina-town who's frustrated over suspicion and a possible lynch. I don't know if I'm being fair in thinking that these two posts feel off though because I keep thinking to myself that I know Mina's capable of channeling her town outrage and I worry that that is coloring my view of them. Anyway, I need to think.

Pless already responded to this, but it's not just at game's start, it's based on activity level and contribution over the course of the days (and can't even really be broached until near deadline of the first day)

AND most importantly it applies when everyone is aware that it's multiball.

Umm, objection? I think it applies even better when only scum know it's multiball, no?

Wait, so what you are telling me is that you want to apply a theory of scum detection in a multiball game to

this game

before we actually know that it's multiball while at the same time thinking someone is scum for saying it's multiball? A theory, which as you've described and applied it, demonstrates that you don't have a really good understanding of the theory, how to apply it, or how it takes more far more work to determine who does or doesn't fit the profile?

Regardless, it can't be applied right now anyway, so this is unproductive.

I’m really not understanding why not. It’s a simple thing. Those who began strongly are more likely town than those who began weakly. For example, say you were scum (not to say you’re not ) and got a PM with 2 other partners, thus assuming in a 28p game that obv there are other scum teams, would you begin the game strongly that benmage? Or just try to fit in the crowd and/or lurk or something? Depending on your answer, it might be different, but for me, I would def pull a Jal, Sala, Plum, Mockingjay, or Hyper.

This isn't actually true though. How someone begins a game can largely be a personality thing. I've begun games strong as scum and have been aggressive then tapered off. I've begun games as scum weakly and remained that way. I've begun town games weakly and gotten more involved over time. I've seen scum start a game very aggressively and remain that way. So, while I think, it might give you a working read on someone; I don't think it's something you can ascribe to very strongly. It's like the time you decided that scum were more likely to begin a game having fun and joking during the rvs stage because it would help them get a better handle on how to manipulate people in the serious stage, which led to you trying very hard to lynch a very innocent me for exhibiting that behavior.

Looking at how they began the game is fine, but don't drop it there because it's their behavior over the ensuing days that will solidify if that theory of your town reads can be applied to those people.

Dolorous Edd is very very likely to be town. His Post 14 is far more likely to come from town him than scum him, especially with the follow up "What do you guys think?"

I understand why some people have suspicions of him, but I haven't seen anything from him yet that raises any alarms

, and between him and his hydra partner, I'm pretty confident in my ability to get an accurate read on them in time.

Lyanna

, as far as i understand, that means that reasons, why some players suspect Dolorus Edd for, you don't see as suspicious. Can you list those reasons and explain why do you those suspicions are wrong? (ie you can read him better, so your input may help others)

Sure, Regfan and I have both discussed his meta in Post 425 and Post 436

---------------

Feysal

Can you explain for me your town read on MoI? Are you not the least bit paranoid?

Don't like that Amrun seemed really excited to replace in on Wednesday, but hasn't found time to say anything other than "need to catch up."

Likewise, Starbuck seems to be lurking out the early pressure on her by giving promise to catch up soon posts.

I'm pretty neutral on Greeknight right now. I don't

like

his posts but haven't found anything really alignment telling in them.

Still can't get to town SnowStorm. If I do move off the minimum wagon, this is the wagon I'll most likely join or choose.

Coming around to seeing Sala-scum. I thought earlier that he was just making some efforts to improve his play but there's a tension when he posts that doesn't feel town.

My town read on Plessiezarus is strengthening to a strong town read. I can sympathize with their leaning scum read on Tyene as I think I've read Tierce as scum in every single game we've played together, even when others are calling her obvtown, and I think the read they gave on her was well thought out and sincere. I don't know that I agree with it as I'm leaning town on Tyene right now, but I believe that they believe it.

That's it...gonna go pass out now.

[Lyanna Stark]

(I think it's somewhat disingenuous of Tammy to claim that we weren't in serious danger, particularly because of a bunch of people who replaced out AFTER that post and who, if anything, would make the game stagnate more--fine, not GUARANTEED to be lynched, just really, really, really fucking likely to get lynched? I was more worried about the wagon than I was letting on, but thought people would eventually just see I was town--or at least, more likely to be town than scum--and move onto actual substantial cases because the original premise of the wagon was so silly and flimsy.)

I'm a bit confused by your accusation that my response was disingenuous and quite frankly baffled by how you would get there. Okay, four people were replacing out at that point, by my count only one person replaced out after, that was redff who was already garnering a good amount of suspicion anyway, so that's a moot point. If you were more bothered by the situation than you let on, that's fine (I've been there) but I'm not a mind reader. So you expressing confidence that you weren't getting lynched and then flipping to being upset because it was guaranteed looked off to me. There's nothing disingenuous in my interpretation, and all you had to do was say that you were trying to not let it bother you more than it was and it would have been a point I could understand.

[Lyanna Stark]

(I think it's somewhat disingenuous of Tammy to claim that we weren't in serious danger, particularly because of a bunch of people who replaced out AFTER that post and who, if anything, would make the game stagnate more--fine, not GUARANTEED to be lynched, just really, really, really fucking likely to get lynched? I was more worried about the wagon than I was letting on, but thought people would eventually just see I was town--or at least, more likely to be town than scum--and move onto actual substantial cases because the original premise of the wagon was so silly and flimsy.)

Welcome to day 1. I like swords.

Do you have a point you'd like to make here.

On another note: Delorous Edd - this is what sniping from the sidelines looks like.

[Lyanna Stark]

Choose Shadow

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna Stark was the younger sister of Lord Eddard Stark and was betrothed to Ned's childhood friend Robert Baratheon. Her abduction by Rhaegar Targaryen was the event that ultimately triggered Robert's Rebellion and led to the downfall of the Targaryen Dynasty.

I'm like the Helen of Troy of Westeros.

[Lyanna Stark]

disingenuous

Cool word. I think you're scum though, call it gut.
Oh jk Mina said that.
Well video is for you then.

Eat some activia and get some new reaction tests. Yours are ancient.

[Lyanna Stark]

@ Mockingjaye

Your Whole case on Us is just one sided? Why is it that everything you pulled came from just one person(Arthur)? Did you take my posts also into context?

You should as that way you get a complete read on us, and not the half-assed one you posted..

Choose:Mockingjaye

I feel your case was lazy scum just picking are one or two things and trying to say that the person is scummy without reading everything..

You do realize you're a hydra right? That means you are read as a whole. No one is going to go through and double check to make sure they read equal parts arthur to equal parts alek, especially ones who don't know how to decipher you (yes, I know you sign your posts but still). I actually find it pretty funny that you're upset your posts were picked apart, especially considering that your posts are far and away scummier than what arthur has posted. If you wanted to make sure you got lots of special attention you maybe should have signed up as yourself instead of as a head of a hydra.

[Lyanna Stark]

But you're actually scum, no test. This is the final exam.

Eh, wrong. Thanks for playing. You fail.

[Lyanna Stark]

But you're actually scum, no test. This is the final exam.

And BB I know exactly what you're trying to do and I'm not going to give it to you. I promised myself that I'd work on my emotional reactions in game because they end up causing a distraction and make people not want to play with me. I may not be able to be perfect all the time but I'll be damned if I let your puerile reaction tests set me off because you think it's fun to call me scum and watch me get riled up over it. So, you can just stop now. Grow up and play the game without acting like a child. Thanks.

[Lyanna Stark]

Stop acting like one.

[Lyanna Stark]

You're a child for your silly post and doing the silly reaction tests. You know I'm not scum and you're just calling me scum to watch me get upset over being called scum.

I know what you're doing. You've done it before, and I'm not going to give you what you want.

[Lyanna Stark]

I haven't mentioned your alignment because I don't know your alignment.

You know why I know you're reaction testing me? You're telling me what town Tammy would be doing, while knowing that people telling me what town tammy would be doing when I am in fact town annoys the shit out of me.

You don't know me better than I do, and you sure as hell know fuck all about town tammy if you're telling me that my actions right now are not town tammy.

[Lyanna Stark]

Where did I assume you as town?

[Lyanna Stark]

I spoke a bit too soon, you didn't so much address me as town as I initially thought. You still haven't bothered to try to read me.

It's really hard to read people who disappear.

[Lyanna Stark]

A

Edit: Miss Stark stop flirting with Mr. Molla he's already taken. If you think he's testing you then he's probably not scum to you, why would scum need to test your reaction?

If he's not reaction

testing

, he's reaction bating. Some people think it's fun to accuse me of being scum when I'm not and watch me get pissed off at the accusation.

[Lyanna Stark]

Whatever, have fun acting like a child. I'm going to bed. I can tell this isn't going to be productive at all and I'll just end up getting annoyed in spite of myself.

[Lyanna Stark]

I have honestly never seen anyone do that to you. I've seen people who honestly believed you had ill intentions accuse you of being scum, though their ability to read you was an entirely different matter. How exactly does pissing you off further BBmolla's scum agenda, which is usually to lurk out talking to people?

And stop cutting me -.- It is like impossible to get a post out here

Probably none, and to be honest, he's probably town here.

I'm actually kind of hurt. No joke.

Pandora is Tammy town?

I'm possibly just being thrown off by her attitude towards me which I've never seen before.

If you weren't just trying to revoke me for a reaction bate/test, I'm sorry I called you a child. You're usually better at reading me than that and the manner that you went about calling me scum seemed more like that's what you were doing.

I'm probably the wrong person to ask, I kind of thought she was town in Otherworld. I don't think she's done anything scummy though.

You did? <3

Her having this argument with you reads pretty genuine actually. Have you ever argued with her in a mafia before? >.> I don't mean this offensively, Tammy, but taking an attack on alignment as a personal assault is the part you should try to stop. You should trust the people you play with to be playing mafia with you, not prod-with-a-stick-until-rages-happen.

It's one of the things I'm working on, but I'm not perfect.

[Lyanna Stark]

No, normally she identifies who I am and reads me accordingly.

There was some game where I said something about Ducks and Chickens and apparently what I said only made sense to me, so sometimes she jokingly references that. I've never really seen her get like this with me.

What I don't understand is why she got emotional because she thought I was reaction testing her while insisting she would not get emotional. It's also what probably makes her town.

Her assuming that I could not possibly think she is scum is probably Town Tammy tbh. Scum Tammy thinks that everyone thinks she is scum.

Apparently my meta on her is false(according to her), so what do I know.

Congratulations on getting the part in your play BB.

Pretty sure I responded to you like this when I replaced into star wars. I remember you getting frustrated with me being condescending in response to you calling me scum.

Your meta on this page is correct

I actually meant to bring up your read on shinori and I saw that regfan agreed. I didn't get the impression that it was a new player hydraing with him, just a new player to this site. I also had the opposite reaction as both of you because I've seen shinori play scum more than once. He's fairly nervous as scum and readable, so when he said he was adding a friend, I wondered if it was more to help him not be so nervous as scum.

shinori

is your hydra partner new to the site or new to mafia?

[Lyanna Stark]

@ Mockingjaye

Your Whole case on Us is just one sided? Why is it that everything you pulled came from just one person(Arthur)? Did you take my posts also into context?

You should as that way you get a complete read on us, and not the half-assed one you posted..

Choose:Mockingjaye

I feel your case was lazy scum just picking are one or two things and trying to say that the person is scummy without reading everything..

You do realize you're a hydra right? That means you are read as a whole. No one is going to go through and double check to make sure they read equal parts arthur to equal parts alek, especially ones who don't know how to decipher you (yes, I know you sign your posts but still). I actually find it pretty funny that you're upset your posts were picked apart, especially considering that your posts are far and away scummier than what arthur has posted. If you wanted to make sure you got lots of special attention you maybe should have signed up as yourself instead of as a head of a hydra.

Okay..is that not the point? Why just pick out those things from Arthur that everyone else has already commented on? Don't find it odd that not one of my "scummy" posts was commented on? I mean really? I don't think they really read the Hydra but picked out a few things others have already commented on and is trying to make a crappy case... and THEY DIDN'T VOTE AT ALLL

But you didn't say that. You said that your posts were not specifically commented on. If you were meaning what you said now, which makes a lot more sense, btw given your reaction, you should have said that to begin with. I don't find anything odd in them not voting considering that they said they had a few people they were trying to decide between before they placed their vote. Some people are cautious voters.

I like this reaction though. It feels genuine.

[Lyanna Stark]

I like this reaction though. It feels genuine.

I

am

town, after all.

~Arthur. I'm not sure about Alek though. He might be scum .

well you aren't termed 'the innocent one' for nothing.

Friend is just new to the site.

He's not new to mafia. Also he hasn't even come to fully read the thread yet so I'm busy trying to catch him up. =|

If need be I could link some games where he has played on another site. He's been playing for a few months easily.

Thank you. I don't need a link to meta though. I just wanted to clear up the varying impressions we got.

But you didn't say that. You said that your posts were not specifically commented on. If you were meaning what you said now, which makes a lot more sense, btw given your reaction, you should have said that to begin with. I don't find anything odd in them not voting considering that they said they had a few people they were trying to decide between before they placed their vote. Some people are cautious voters.

I like this reaction though. It feels genuine.

But they used the Red Choose? I mean I could understand not doing both, but one or the other? Come one? I am sry but it just feels way off too me...

Also: Not I am gonna actually sit back and Confirm my reads with Arthur as We are having some conflict issues on who we think are town and who we think are scum...

Right Now I agree with him on Mockingjaye and Fenysel so I am okay with those votes

-Alek

It doesn't seem strange to me though. I didn't choose someone for a week, and am trying to figure out where I'm going to move my vote/choose to. Not everyone is comfortable just moving their votes around. Some people are more cautious. They gave a list of four people I think and said they needed to look at those people again to decide where they were sticking their vote; it's not odd to me.

[Lyanna Stark]

Good thing I'm asking 24 other people besides you, heh, MoS?

They're not going to say anything either.

And they shouldn't.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay then, what was your purpose for calling me scum for teasing MoS/Tierce for bickering and talking to Mina about a perceived disingenuous statement. Because really those were two really odd things to pull out of my entire contribution to call me scum for.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna, I'll admit the fact the hydra-partner of Shinoris isn't 'new' does weaken the town-tell but while he may be nervous and weak as scum I don't think his solution to counter that would be bringing into it another player he has to have hydra-interactions with since they'd have to fake read disagreements ect.

Tierce, redeeming factor of Amruns slot is that it was Pappums and I had a town-read on him. Need content from her soon though, like real soon.

DCL, the point and comments you were trying to 'catch yourself up with' were useless and spending time trying to try and get aquainted with it is and was pointless, the time would be much better of served actually reading the game. And I don't expect 28 reads at all but 5 reads with 1 of them being entirely a sheeping of a town read is literally no contribuition and content whatsoever, there's no need to post snippets here and there when you're not caught up with the game. Natural town thought process is catch-up, then post reads. Not post 1-2 reads then catch-up, the later is more likely from scum wanting to seem contributory and active. The "Adding more later" does nothing for me, especially when your reads and post insinuated you'd read a decent portion of the thread which isn't the case if those were your only reads that you had to elaborate on. Oh and also can you link me to a town and a scum game where you've replaced into please.

Re: Shinori - That was my gut reaction to seeing his hydra post. Although, it might be a little unfair of me, admittedly, but I've yet to see him (or a slot he was assigned) as town. However, his admitting that his friend hasn't been playing that long and is probably not as good as him at scum seemed very natural. As scum, he has a tendency to get a little over defensive and answer in really overexplanatory ways (as in the recently completed Leprachaun mafia.) I did like him offering up his friend's meta, but he did do that with his own meta as scum in Kingdom Hearts when he was scum. But, even though I haven't liked a couple of his posts, I'm sensing a feeling of relaxation in his posts which has me leaning town.

Re: SatanCat - I don't exactly think that's a fair assessment of replacement strategy (idk on the proper word. It's late and I'm tired.) Any way, I've replaced into quite a few games over the past few months and I don't always read the game thread first and then give my reads. It really all depends on my mood/game state/who's around when I replace in/whatever when I replace in. I've been known as both town and as scum to skim the last couple pages and interact. I've been known as town to jump in and interact before reading anything. I've been known as both town and scum to read the entire game and give a list of reads before doing anything. It just really all depends. I can see your point on the rest of it, but the replacement strategy seems like you're applying your thought process to his and that doesn't work for everyone.

So I'm leaving for Atlanta here in a bit for Dragon Con, so I'll be V/LA until at least next Weds. I will have my laptop and be able to check in.


Can someone sum up the current wagons for me?

Yeah, it's call ISO's.

@ the Stark-Girl:

We have a fairly strong read on both ScumStorm & MiniScum (I've been wanting to use that name for a bit xD), the former being in the OMG-SO-SCUM tier for both of us, while the latter I have a weaker confidence about (mostly because Mina's annoyance reads as legit to me, and I don't feel confident about hypo-MinaScum going about poking MoI as much; my opinion on CES' remains unchanged, though). Anyway, your comment "still can't get to town on SnowStorm" in 710, seems to imply there's something about him making you hesitant about considering him obvscum here. What is it?

~.Zar

Nothing I can put my finger on and if his claim is a real claim then hmm... There are several reasons why I could tell you why he's scum, but there are little flashes of the SnowStorm Post 484 that I know who gets intimidated and tends not to contribute much at times and becomes easy lynch bait. He hasn't given me any good reason to think he's town, but I also get caught up on calling him scum, and it could just be as simple as him seeming genuinely baffled that people think he's scum. By logic he's scum, but it just feels too easy somehow.

I know that it's past this question, but what do you think about his mason claim?

I don't see any reason why hypo-MinaScum wouldn't poke at MoI though. Maybe a weak scum player, but I don't view Mina as a weak scum player.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay then, what was your purpose for calling me scum for teasing MoS/Tierce for bickering and talking to Mina about a perceived disingenuous statement. Because really those were two really odd things to pull out of my entire contribution to call me scum for.

I thought you were scum. It gave me scummy vibes.

So, when I'm having fun, you think I'm scum Do I really come across like a stick in the mud who's always super serious?

[Lyanna Stark]

Re: Greenknight - I remember thinking he was scum during the beginning of day one in the game we played together, and he's kind of reminding me of that here. As I said before, I'm not a big fan of his posts, but I'm not reading him as scum either.

So so so tired of Shadow doing nothing but sniping from the sidelines. Like really, I suppose according to Post 724 he's got some magnificent ~role~ he knows will keep him off the lynch/choose wagon but does that mean we have to be subjected to an entire game full of sniping/cutesy gifs/gloating type posts??? Like seriously, can we just lynch/choose him and be done with it? Please???

VOTE: Shadow

I realize this votes means nothing and I'll be moving it tomorrow, but if I had my ice cream and dreams of lynches it would be this one.

Meh, I don't know what to make of bvoigt. We just finished a game together in which he was scum and I got a scum read on him pretty quickly but that might have been due to his reaction to a reaction test. I don't like his responses in regard to satancat though. Feels natural enough, but the bit about town not defending themselves...eh...he used this as part of his case against me being scum when I wasn't in the game we just finished. I'm not sure I can be partial here...but he doesn't feel the same as when he was scum. But, I've seen him make a case against someone (me) when he was scum and it didn't look like his reasons for voting Sala.

Bvoigt - I talked about Shinori a bit, but since you were his partner, you should know more. Anyway, he seems much more relaxed than any of the times I've seen him as scum. But, he hasn't posted enough for me to get a real read on him yet.

This is actually a good point. SnowStorm is definitely a better lynch than Minimum, though

obviously

Sala is my first choice.

While I have hardly paid attention to bvoigt so far, I really dislike the smug wording in this line. (

Emphasis

mine.) And it's by far the least awful of the main wagons.

Someone saying obviously is indicative of smug wording?

The jabs between Tammy and me are (currently) playful and rather evident of that. Look at our flavor alts, look at the Houses, look at a certain Targaryen with rubies in his armor. Dorne does not have particularly good relations with Winterfell. It's RP banter, because that's

fun

.

I'm actually not very knowledgeable about the flavor at all, having neither read the books or seen the series. I looked up Lyanna Stark in a wiki when I had a free moment, but I don't know a damn thing about Dorne or the Sand Snakes. Anyway, I get role play, having played those games myself, but post #237 seemed to imply there was something more to it, so I asked.

Meh...the RP banter is fun, but you're right to read more there admittedly especially in Post 237, and while I could say more on the topic, I'll just say that some people can't let past in game conflicts go and feel the need to assert their own sense of superiority over others. It's sad, but some people just can't understand that people are different than they are and feel the need to assert they'd rather not have them around than deal with the minor discomfort of having them around (and not recognize that they aren't perfect themselves...it's kind of weird). The utter sadness over the situation and the pity I feel for her as a person right now is amplified by her statement that her feeling over the subset of us is written all over the forums. meh...whatever.

Yes, you already answered about MoI. The reason I asked was because in GvE, you went after him day one even though his hydra seemed pretty obvtown. And then the next day when Pine said he investigated MoI and others were giving him a hard time for his investigation, you said that you'd never fault him for investigating MoI due to the shameless lies he's known for. So, it struck me as odd that mid-day one you were saying he was town as I thought that you were just legitimately paranoid him as a player.

I felt like there was something else I was going to say and it's gone now...it's late.

Choose:Minimum

If you're SnowStorm's Mason Buddy keep your mouth shut. Don't listen to the rabble. Snowstorm can give us the name of his buddy if we need it, but if he's really a town mason, his days are numbered. There's no reason to make the other mason be the other night one choice if we lynch/choose scum or killed before his time. We can revisit this in a couple days. The only people/person that should

maybe

speak up is anyone who can disprove the claim.

-----------------------

I'm going to be as active as I can until about 9 pm est on Friday. This is my birthday weekend and I have friends coming to visit and celebrate. I'm going to be trashed. I'll do what I can, but can't promise much. They think it's rude for me to play mafia instead of be attentive for some reason

Panshadow - <3

[Lyanna Stark]

Tierece - LOL

i can sympathize after I failed at Englishing several times while teaching earlier today and it's my first language

. That makes sense. I need to re-read through bvoigt and see if I can be objective about his alignment. I should probably wait a day or two though.

[Lyanna Stark]

Will probably switch to bvoigt (almost certainly, in fact) but I need to talk it over with Zar first.

Re: Greenknight - I remember thinking he was scum during the beginning of day one in the game we played together, and he's kind of reminding me of that here. As I said before, I'm not a big fan of his posts, but I'm not reading him as scum either.

Link? I've only seen greenknight in Feast... we're pretty confident in that scum-read.

I happen to be the huge dork who is laying in bed playing mafia on my iPad and avoiding sleep for some reason, but not dorky enough to know how to give you a link. The game I'm referring to is the good versus evil game thou. It's here in the theme park.

Someone saying obviously is indicative of smug wording?

Obviously.

(That was pretty smug, right? I was going for smug.[/quote]

When aren't you smug :p

[Lyanna Stark]

Really not happy with both the leading wagons and really haven't had the time or patience to mafia the past couple days.

I'm wondering why people gave green knight a hard time for placing votes without reading and no one bats an eye when seraphim does it.

Would probably choose greenknight over feysal, but I need to re-read over them, before I do that. Don't have time for that as company will be here any minute.

I'll look over this on monday if not sunday. Thought I'd have more time before the weekend, but didn't.

@mod - v/la through the weekend for holiday and birthday shenanigans.

[Lyanna Stark]

Contributing day one is subjective. Consider: we've made the same number of votes this day. Just because you feel like wall posting doesn't give your posts any more weight than mine. Also, nice fishing.

So so so tired of Shadow doing nothing but sniping from the sidelines. Like really, I suppose according to Post 724 he's got some magnificent ~role~ he knows will keep him off the lynch/choose wagon but does that mean we have to be subjected to an entire game full of sniping/cutesy gifs/gloating type posts??? Like seriously, can we just lynch/choose him and be done with it? Please???

This shoulda been quoted in the last post*

I'd like for you to point out a couple of things for me.

1). When did I ever make a claim that the amount of votes a person makes in a day is important, or that voting more is contributing more (hint: you can't...so this was a pointless rebuttal.)

2.). When did I ever say that wall posting is more contributing than not wall posting? (hint: you can't because it's not even something I implied.).

Your contribution has been lacking not due to lack of words in one post but because the majority of your "content" has been in the form of sniping from the sidelines with a very strange affected attitude that I've often see scum take, include cutesy gifs that appear more to antagonize the people you're responding to, and defense of your non contribution.

I've also noticed a trend of yours to instead of just answer for yourself to make comparisons like here, Ina weird stretching way. I didn't say anything about votes or walls, but talked about what I didn't like about your contribution, and you tried to turn the attack around on me by adding elements I didn't consider. The "how can you say I've been doing xyz, so have you...I have more posts than you do, etc" is something I've often see scum do to try to make the attacks appear inaccurate.

Oh you're good, you caught me, that was a total role fish. If you actually believe that you should feel offended that I thought you were so insanely stupid that you'd out your potential role to me because of that post. But since I don't think you're a moron, and since I haven't treated you like a moron in the games we've played together, then I know you know that wasn't role fishing and was just more of the sniping you've been doing during the game.

[Lyanna Stark]

Note for the record how Minimum's activity (specifically the Mina half) has dropped off since the pressure on them abated.

In the sign up thread Mina said that a large game wasn't the best idea for her right now and that ces would be doing most of the posting.

[Lyanna Stark]

What does asfdgk mean? I googled and couldn't find it

[Lyanna Stark]

Ah...I can understand that as I can identify with it quite well. And yeah, I looked it up. I don't use much IM speak so I'm often a bit lost when people do. :p

[Lyanna Stark]

Can those who vote bvoigt explain,

why he is more scummy than Salamance20 (or why Salamance20 is town for you, if that's the case)? If this is meta based, are there clear examples of bvoigt!scum or Salamance!town that you can link to?

I don't do meta research on people, so I don't know about sala scum, but here's an example of a recently complete scum bvoigt game for reference if you like meta http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22540. (in case that didn't paste properly, it's leprechaun mafia in little Italy.

[Lyanna Stark]

I realize you're looking to get a read no me, but feigning ignorance just annoys me

How ironic.

[Lyanna Stark]

For the choice: I am leaning

Feysal

at the moment, but for him and

Greenknight

: Who do you plan to shot at the moment, would you be okay, wich town directing you?

Does who they say they would choose a determining factor in our choice?

[Lyanna Stark]

Your choice*

Sorry..late...tired...ipad

[Lyanna Stark]

Side note: My read on Staeg has completely flopped and now I am leaning scum on him.

Still prefer the salamaence/whoever replaced him's lynch. And Choosing feysal is fine with me.

Why, why and why?

[Lyanna Stark]

I put BB in the town column on gut from his page 1 jokeclaim post and have stuck with it without any hiccups. Looking through his iso, the only other moment I remember standing out is when he posted constructively about SS's flavor-spec (195), and SS's response to that made me reinterpret SS's original flavor-spec more
- Iecerint

Why do you think tht giving someone a town read based on gut is meaningful, yet say that someone's reasons (ie...me) for voting someone because their posts make them feel twitchy is a lot of nothing?

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay, I'm relatively new to closed or theme games here. I've read up safenames on the wiki, but I wasn't aware of mods giving out safe

role claims

. Is this common? .

I think it's relatively common. In mafia behind the maiden and kingdom hearts fake/safe claims were given. I've never played in a faraday-modded game here so I don't know if he does it differently, but I've played a game he modded elsewhere and he had the roles assigned randomly so that no one could be cleared solely due to role though. I still think this is an issue that will work itself out in time though.

[Lyanna Stark]

Read post 895. Stay away from the wagon.

I like your defense of replacement strategy, but you're applying what you would do to someone else and thats dangerous. I've seen s um replace in and jump in just like dcl, so it's not a great town tell. Heck in otherworld, I replaced in as scum, barely skimmed a couple pages and started talking.

[Lyanna Stark]

Sorry for the spam...caught up though. I need to ISo bvoigt, shadow, feysal and Sao tomorrow. Well I don't necessarily need to ISP sapo as I have some things to say about the replacement, but too tired to do it right now.

I think that's all though I thik I'm forgetting something...tomorrow though.

Would easily change to a seraphim wagon at the moment.

Choose dcl

[Lyanna Stark]

Blech.

unvote

I agree with Tyene, I guess, that his attitude fits someone who knew they wouldn't be lynched, but it still doesn't make too much sense to me. I've seen Shadow in GvE have a town PR, one of the few, and engage in the game without antagonizing everyone in the game and behaving in a way that would get him likely to be lynched and night killed. Regardless, just like the masons, this will be resolved in time.

I'm more confident in DCL flipping town though and am at a bit of a loss of what to do about that. The next closest choose wagon is Feysal, and I don't like that wagon either. I don't have a read on Feysal right now, which is frustrating. In GvE, he was my second strongest town read behind MoI day one, and my strongest town read the rest of the game after MoI died night one. However, I got that strong town read due to his theory of how to approach the game at the beginning and his helping me get over a bit of confirmation bias of another townie day one, and I attribute his honesty with me as one of the major reasons why I stopped pushing for the lynch of someone I had gotten into a townvtown argument with. I don't have that type of interaction right now to help reinforce my read though his behavior is similar. I guess one thing that has thrown me off is his giving MoI a town read so quick. He just seemed so legitimately paranoid of him as a player that I wouldn't expect that. In GvE, he kept his vote on MoI for all of day one despite MoI being pretty obvious town in that game, because of his paranoia. However, this is not near enough for me to give a choose vote for Feysal for. The first day of GvE was nearly 6 months ago though, so it's perfectly reasonable that he doesn't have the same paranoia. Also, his continued push on Starbuck even though others are not suspicious is in keeping with how he treated his MoI suspicions in GvE.

[Lyanna Stark]

I asked for someone to fill me in on what was going on a few days ago and when I checked back while waiting in line for a panel, I saw nothing but a snarky response. Some kind of idea of what is going on (especially at 53 pages) to tell me what is going on would be very much appreciated. I do not want us to end this day in a no lynch/no choose situation because that gets us no where/gets us no information.

I still do believe that I would make a good choose candidate being that I am a VT. I also think that could solve my whole catch up issue. In any case, I'm going to stay in and I know that within the next week, I can get that catch up that I promised.

That was me. I get that you're busy, but your question was a bit annoying. You didn't ask for someone to fill you in on what was happening, you wanted the wagons summed up for you, and the answer I gave you - to iso - was the most correct answer to give. It's something you need to look into yourself. What I found odd was that you just put that question to the crowd, though if I remember correctly you've given exactly one town read - Tyene Sand. The question wouldn't have seemed so odd if you'd posed it to the one person here that you trust, but you asked it to the group. So, you didn't care who gave you their biased opinion of the wagons? You just wanted someone to tell you what they thought? Struck me as off.

[Lyanna Stark]

Feysal's SS wagon position and greenknight iso make me more comfortable with him as the Choose.

Why?

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna Stark

I'm more confident in DCL flipping town though and am at a bit of a loss of what to do about that.

Attempts to distance herself from my wagon without attempting to slow it down by unvoting me. Seems like a scummy attempt to get a mislynch without having it attributed to you.

scum.

Perfect example of why I feel better about staying on your wagon than jumping to the Feysal wagon, who is the only other viable choice right now even though I'm less confident about him being town than you even though I'd totally trust his choice more than I would yours all things considered.

[Lyanna Stark]

Meh. Okay Regfan. I just read his iso twice and haven't found a compelling reason not to vote.

VOTE: stefanb

Still would be willing to vote Seraphim.

Sapo

I know what wagon position meant. I was wondering why Feysal's struck you as off.

Benmage

I've seen Nacho lurk as town, not sure that's an alignment tell for him.

I'm going to iso bvoigt again tomorrow when I get home from work. I don't have a strong read one way or the other on him. I'm not seeing what others see jumping out to prove he's scum, but I don't have a reason to defend him either. Still worry I'm trying too hard to be impartial and am failing at it.

[Lyanna Stark]

Perfect example of why I feel better about staying on your wagon than jumping to the Feysal wagon, who is the only other viable choice right now even though I'm less confident about him being town than you even though I'd totally trust his choice more than I would yours all things considered.

This is terrible.

-Lyanna thinks that I am more likely to be town than feysal.
-Me and feysal are crossvoting.
-Lyanna says that she would rather trust feysals vote than my vote,

even though she thinks I'm more likely to be town.

This is some very contradictory stuff here.

Lyanna is either retarded or scum. I don't think she is retarded so she must be scum.

Eh...no. Thanks for playing. Both your premises are wrong and are built on your misunderstanding of my position, which largely comes from your selective reading.

If you had read my first post in full instead of just the first sentence you would see that I don't like the feysal choose wagon either. My choice for you is, as shadow stated earlier, an active choice to make sure feysal is not chosen. And yes, I'm making this choice even though I'm more confident that you'll flip town than he will. This does not mean I have a scum read on feysal, as I said I don't have a read on feysal right now nor do I have a strong town read on you. If I had a scum read on feysal I'd be choosing him, no doubt, but I don't.

I said I would be more trusting of who feysal would choose over you, not vote.

This post right here that I'm responding to is yet again another example of why I'm actively choosing not to send feysal in favor of you. You have selectively responded to, misinterpreted, and used faulty premises to come to a faulty conclusion that doesn't take into account the entirety of play. I've seen you do that with other reads.

There are exactly two viable choose wagons right now. I'm not happy with either of them, nor do I have strong reads on either of them, so I have to look at who I would prefer to choose based on something else - namely your contribution in this game and my past experience with you both. Feysals contribution has been more comprehensive compared to yours, and I know that feysal is a careful player. In GvE, he was a big reason our town ultimately won and we were able to work together in lylo to make the right choice at the end. I don't have that kind of positive experience with you (I don't think youre a bad player, but a couple of your choices in otherworld make me a bit wary).

Is it fair? Probably not. Does it suck? I'm sure it does, and I'll feel really bad if it turns out that feysal is scum. But as long as I believe there's a chance that feysal is town, I'm not going to make it more likely for him to be chosen today.

[Lyanna Stark]

Meh. Okay Regfan. I just read his iso twice and haven't found a compelling reason not to vote.

VOTE: stefanb

I don't really understand why you would vote for Stefan over bvoigt here. You don't seem to have a read on either one (unless I'm misinterpreting "haven't found a compelling reason not to vote"?), and bvoigt is surely a more viable lynch at this point?

Sheeping regfan a little, and being a little resistant on the bvoigt front. I just finished playing with bvoigt in a game where he was scum and he and his partner spent weeks tunneling on me and trying to get me mislynched. I'm trying very hard to be impartial here and read him accurately but I'm having trouble. There's not a marked difference in his play, but there is some, and I'm kind of stuck in waffleville at the moment. For instance he gave me a town read and asked for my opinion of shinori, who was one of his partners in the game we just finished. This makes me feel positive about him since he's working with the town and not going the undermining route; however, then I worry he's just taking the opposite approach with me as he did as scum previously but then think I'm being paranoid about that. Yeah, I know. I need to think, and read his ISP again. But most likely if he's still the most viable wagon when I get home tonight, and by this point I think he will be, I'll be switching regardless.

[Lyanna Stark]

Tl;dr

You said that you think I am more likely to be town, yet are choosing me over feysal, one long post doesn't change that obvious contradiction.

If I am more likely to be town why the hell would you rather want me dead?

As far as my play in otherworld, my play in that was fine besides the use of my pr. Let's see, I hammered scum day1 (I correctly chose red instead of mos) and then after you died I was the one who went through the trouble to re-read your iso and find your breadcrumb.

You just keep proving my original point. There is no big glaring contradiction, you just don't like my conclusion, and I don't blame you for that. I wouldn't like it either.

I think there's a chance both you and feysal are town, hence not liking either wagon.

I'm a little more confident in my belief that you will flip town, but this does not negate my belief that feysal will likely flip town.

All things considered, I'd prefer to take the chance with feysal for the reasons stated so I'm not going to take an action that will put feysal out of the game, a player I view as an asset if town.

Your day one hammer was a good choice; however, your day three quick hammer of pere based on a soft claim before he could even post or have a discussion over whether or not the night action proved he was scum was not. Your use of your pr was actually a bit funny, but not fussing up before massclaim was a bad idea. Neither of these actions hurt town as town did great in that game, but its part of what factored into my choice, as they had the potential to.

I think you have me confused with plum. I replaced into a scum slot and lurked and found out people had strong scum reads on my predecessors and lurked some more before being lynched.

[Lyanna Stark]

On a more serious note that means that i don't really believe your claim now. You posted something 2 hours later, which means that your claim post wasn't the last chance to post during the day

Seriously, you've been misrepping people all game. You either have very poor selective reading, or you're scummy scum mcscummerson. I like to start my first impressions of people as "they're probably not that dumb, they're probably scum", and work down. Ergo, if you're town, you need to read more thoroughly, or not join 28 player games.

Shadow, do you realize that he was referring to stefanb and not you?

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm not seeing the evidence for him soft claiming Tyrion.

(I will admit to be amazingly retarded when it comes to finding breadcrumbs though.)

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm not seeing the evidence for him soft claiming Tyrion.

(I will admit to be amazingly retarded when it comes to finding breadcrumbs though.)

I posted the crumbs directly. Tyrion is short (a dwarf). Cersei thinks Tyrion is fated to kill her or ruin her queenship or something (can't recall details).

Why Stefan has only soft-claiming his name like this, I don't know. I agree that he should be clear.

I saw what you quoted. They just didn't seem like crumbs to me, but as I said I'm horrible at finding/deciphering crumbs.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm just checking in real quick on my phone. But

unvote

While we discuss this. I'll be back after lunch.

[Lyanna Stark]

Calm the fuck down.

We have over one hour. Over one hour. And two votes needed to get a lynch. Two.

You know these votes are coming. Stop hyperventilating now and stop bitching about it.

Pless has obviously stated his intention to vote. I said I'd be back when I unvoted for the purpose of discussion. This is not the end of the world.

Breathe.

VOTE: stefan

[Lyanna Stark]

So you're going to drive this down to the last ten minutes and make me have a conniption when my connection inevitably fails and I can't see if there was actually a lynch, right, Pless?

I mean if I die of stress you get rid of a scumread, but

come on

. No one else is going to be voted for at this stage. What are you waiting for? Why the need to drag it into literally (welcome to Europe) the 11th hour?


PEdit: I just don't see the point of waiting, there aren't going to be massive revelations an hour to the deadline. But thanks for voting. You can get your cookie and juice pack on the table outside~

There is no harm in waiting either. Just because you are anxious for a flip doesn't mean that others have to abide by your time table. They have to do what they think is right and if they want to drag out the inevitable as they work it out fine. There's always the chance of a different outcome as well. An hour is a lot of time.

I don't drink juice, but if you've got some vodka in the mini fridge I'd take some of that. Thanks for the cookies.

[Lyanna Stark]

*sigh* One day I'll stop explaining myself to scum.

Am a little surprised they went after the masons, especially considering there were a good number of people who questioned the mason claim and it wasn't like the masons were a big contributing force.

Since DCL turned up Stannis Faction, that means that it is multiball, right?

Staeg - what do you mean by you feel bad for Regfan?

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh also, I think we need to be wary of VT claims.

[Lyanna Stark]

Hey Shadow - You doublin' up?

[Lyanna Stark]

Hey Shadow - You doublin' up?

[Lyanna Stark]

Then never mind

[Lyanna Stark]

I've had a couple glasses of wine with dinner and probably am not making sense. Sorry.

[Lyanna Stark]

Hey! I second Tyene's motion of a no quick lynch. Not just because of the jail vote issue but because I'd like to not quick lynch on day two.

[Lyanna Stark]

Ok, I have finally skimmed through enough of this to make some sense out of what is happening.

Things I think I know:
-Dolorous is town. From the posts of hers I skimmed its clear she is active and definitely scum hunting which is good.

-

Tierce's

Tyene Sand's reaction to me joining the game was just very odd. Before reading the thread I start commenting on the few most recent posts and she
somehow takes offense at that, yes it may have been something minimal, but hey, I was trying to figure out what was going on in the game and my posts did not warrant that type of negative reaction. Not sure how to read her right now. I'm worried that she is one of those players I just always think is scummy.

-I think MoI and shadow are also town. The selfvote from MoI and the sarcasm from shadow seem to show more of a town mindset, scum generally don't play that loosely. (at least from my experience)

-Not liking benmage much, mostly for his first two posts, he makes a silly RVS post and immediately follows it up by...chiding everyone for not taking the game seriously...

-Feysal seems to be trying way to hard to say the right stuff. The multiball "slip" doesn't concern me much. The very neutral play-style coming from here does. I'll post some examples of it tomorrow, but looking at his ISO seems proof enough.

@everyone, if you have played with shadow before, any info about his town/scum meta?

Choose:Feysal

VOTE: Jal I'm tired so I'm going to blatantly sheep Dolorous on this one.

and yes, I'm aware I'm joining two of the bigger wagons. It's not my fault they got caught before I joined.


Townreads: Dolorous, MoI, shadow
null leaning scum: Tierce
Scumreads: Jal, Feysal

I'll have more later but this is a good starting point for a game this big.

Wait a second, I'm stupid. So regfan asks for my meta on replacing into game. I give it to him, he doesn't mention it at all and puts a vote on me. If he were town and had read what he had asked for, (it would only have taken 5 minutes or less) I highly doubt he would have voted me. which then leads to the conclusion that he is scum and ignored the meta because there wasn't anything in there he could use to frame me.

Unvote:
vote:Regfan

@mod BBmolla unchoosed.

Here is what I have for now, I'm not making any promises to finishing tonight but may have time tomorrow afternoon.

I don't have time for reads on everyone, but heres is what I think of my wagon.

Tierce

Tyene Sand

: I think she has some sort of vendetta against me, which initially made me suspect her and I had her as null-scum at the start, but after thinking about it I think scumtierce would act more rationally and she is playing very similarly to otherworld mafia where she was town.

Null-Town

Plessiezarus

:

Null-leaning scum.

Their attempt to over-justify the vote on me seems scummy.

Regfan

:

Scum

, already explained why his vote was bad.

Pandore

:

This attempt to distance himself from the wagon is scummy.

I'm really.. surprised the DCL wagon grew so fast. I'm just going to bury my head in the saand and hope that it's not as bad as Shadow1wagon is to me..

However, this is not. Shows he is a townsperson who is trying to keep an open mind about my lynch..

People who have experience with DCL from just ended games like Otherworld, does he seem like the kind of townie that would jump up as if enlightened that Regfan (someone who is not getting lynched today) is scum because he 'wouldn't have voted him if he'd read his meta'?

Null-leaning town

then for this slot.

Feysal

: I find it interesting that I am listed as null-leaning scum, and starbuck is listed as scum but Feysal puts his choose on me.

still scum.

Lyanna Stark

I'm more confident in DCL flipping town though and am at a bit of a loss of what to do about that.

Attempts to distance herself from my wagon without attempting to slow it down by unvoting me. Seems like a scummy attempt to get a mislynch without having it attributed to you.

scum.

unvote
vote:stefan

Probably the most informational posts of DCL's. This is IIoA though.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm not sure I like Benmage's idea to use the jailkeep as a doc ability...seems like a good way to render a PR useless for the night.

Meh...or a good way to keep a strong town read alive who might otherwise be killed.

[Lyanna Stark]

I misread shadows saying Staeg instead of BVO. I don't know why.

I'm fine with BVO lynch, however if Bvo flips town we look at staeg and shadows because of weird stuff i got in my pm last night.

##Vote: Bvo

So, you have information that potentially clears Bvoigt and implicates Staeg and Shadow somehow and you're just fine lynching Bvoigt in case? If that's not what you mean, what do you mean?

[Lyanna Stark]

Shit I just realized I forgot to take something out of my notes

So apparently I recieved a letter from someone, it says that Aegon Targaryen's forces are split up so that some do not know who the others are. After some extensive research(AKA, googling Aegon Targaryen) I've come to the conclusion this is probably good knowledge for the town to know because they look like bad guys.

Unsatisfied with the lynch today, fine with the choose.

UNCHOOSE
CHOOSE: DLCXVI

L-1 for choose

I still think Sapo is scum btw. Will switch to Shadow to prevent no lynch.

[Lyanna Stark]

Eh...Faraday hates recruitable roles so I don't know how strongly I'd buy into that theory.

I'd imagine that DCL's faction is the same as the one who killed both masons. It just would be too coincidental for different scum factions to happen to kill the other mason person. I looked for crumbs to see if DCL left any hint of who he would kill but didn't find any.

Although a double kill of either I suppose is possible. I'm just still surprised they went after either of them at all.

[Lyanna Stark]

I find it curious that, for all practical effects, we only had a kill. DCLXVI's 'faction', whatever that means, knew who he was going to kill, obviously.

How? Maybe DCL wasn't allowed any more communications with his scumteam?

If they do have day talk as Z(?) suggested, that would have been planned before day ended most likely.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna, do you still have a scum read on Minimum and could you explain it if you do?

Frustratingly enough I'm still about here:

I'm waffling a bit on minimum. I still feel like their posts are off, and while I don't know if I want them lynched I don't feel comfortable moving my vote at this moment. I need to think about this a bit. I'm not sure if I'm paranoid about that slot because right now I'm just paranoid of the slot or if I legitimately think they're scum here. I'm not a big fan of Post 641 because some of it felt off. The "thanks now you've guaranteed we'll get lynched" didn't exactly sit right since it was at complete odds with her earlier acknowledgment that she has a tendency to start awkwardly but is able to let her obvtownness shine through and was confident that she wouldn't end up getting lynched. We're a week from deadline, 5 people have replaced out, there are several others who are lurking or providing little content who are raising suspicions and enough people voicing opposition to the minimum lynch that the guarantee statement seems off. And I agree with Pless/Zar (?) who said that the unedited version would have had a better impact maybe. Her Post 643 similarly felt a bit off but does come far closer to what I would expect from Mina-town who's frustrated over suspicion and a possible lynch. I don't know if I'm being fair in thinking that these two posts feel off though because I keep thinking to myself that I know Mina's capable of channeling her town outrage and I worry that that is coloring my view of them. Anyway, I need to think.

There are certain things that lead me to getting a town read on them. For instance my interaction with CES and the way that CES told me to choose Greenknight in Post 1028, but then Mina starts posting. And some of Mina's posts really are fine and I start to get a town read on them like in Post 1194 but then we get stuff like Post 1469 which just reads over the top. (And, yes I know I have literally no right whatsoever to accuse someone else of having over the top posting.) It just seemed to come out of nowhere and for no reason - from an outside pov - but I'm not sure that it's alignment indicative as I know that Mina didn't think she'd have time for this game and has been busy so it could just be an effect of her being on edge.

Basically, I'm fencesitting at the moment. I'm not sure why some people have a strong scum read on them, and some statements she's made like "the people who are so smug in thinking they know our alignment" type of statements make me wonder how they are so confident because it reads as someone who is almost laughing at others who are reading them so terribly.

[Lyanna Stark]

Haven't read Bvoight in ISO, but his posts haven't struck me as too bright or too townie, so I wouldn't weep if the lynch landed there.

tbqh, I think that the claim makes bvoight MORE likely to be scum, but vigs can prove themselves and are counterclaimed with bullets etcetc

Yeah, a bv scum flip doesn't look good for Staeg. The first post looks like distancing and the second looks like gunning for town cred off a Bv scum flip, but he unvotes bv in his next post.

Along with other stuff.

Frankly if people want me to out infos i could. It could just be really bad though. so I'm waffling on it.

It's up to you. If it's pertinent to this particular lynch it could be good to out it, or if it's information you think will benefit town if you weren't around then maybe. Otherwise, if you think it'd be more beneficial if scum knew it, meh, wait for some more people to weigh in maybe.

[Lyanna Stark]

Then you wouldn't go "I know a doctor was on me..."

I'd laugh and tell you that it was highly unlikely any mafia team killed you night one, but then they went and killed masons who were practically non existent in the game and were suspected for being fake masons and I don't have any clue anymore.

[Lyanna Stark]

Well yes, if you went back and looked at what they said about each other, but people were still expressing doubts and more importantly they were a virtual non existence in the game. It's not like they took their confirmed status and tried to be upfront about anything.

[Lyanna Stark]

We're not disagreeing with one another. However, they were pretty non-existent in so far as giving opinions and trying to direct town. They seemed a rather benign pair so I'm pretty surprised they were taken out so early. I've seen confirmable town last for several days if they weren't much of a presence before.

[Lyanna Stark]

We're not disagreeing with one another. However, they were pretty non-existent in so far as giving opinions and trying to direct town. They seemed a rather benign pair so I'm pretty surprised they were taken out so early. I've seen confirmable town last for several days if they weren't much of a presence before.

Well, you see, it actually makes perfect sense to take out the masons early.

1) The masons were pretty much confirmed townies. Yes, there was some doubt to their claim, blah blah blah, but sooner or later they would've even became more obv that they were masons. Taking them out early would keep the paranoia that there is scum in the strong town reads, or of course, there

is

scum in the huge pile of town reads, and in either case it benefits the scum.
2) No doctor would've really went for the masons. Yet at the same time, scum would be lowering the obv town pool while at the same time taking out the least likely paranoia theory (that SS and green were scum together).

I know

why

it makes sense and is good to take out masons, but I did not expect it in this case. Confirmed town really doesn't mean a whole lot except for in terms of Poe, and when confirmed town isn't really doing much in a game they are not a danger to the scum team. In a game that is likely to be heavily roled they went for masons instead of taking a chance on town power, or on known (likely) town power with shadow.

[Lyanna Stark]

Zdenek - in response to your Post 1673 and my statement to shinori pon entrance. It was a joke. Shinori and I have played together a couple times and he's been scum each time.

(I would respond directly but I'm lazy and don't feel like going to my computer to wade though that post.)

[Lyanna Stark]

In Post 1592 I posted all the relevant posts of dcl with regar to reads. I looked at that link that he provided of him being scum to see hoe he rated his partners in that game. He gave one a null read and the other he gave a scum read.

If he happens to follow a pattern in the way he lists his partners we can assume that it's quite likely that one of feysal or jal is scum.

Jal spent most of yesterday without a vote or a choose out there. I defended their lack of vote to edd as they said they needed to iso a few people and then would vote, but still they did not vote until deadline. The timing of their choose is suspect as well. In Post 1391 is a vote count with feysal at 8 choose votes and dcl with 12 votes. In Post 1395 jal says that dcl looks town and that she can't get a read on feysal so would prefer him.

(and I just realized that edd put this in his big post)

Feysal didnt mention him until Post 1263 where he labels him leaning scum. He had mentioned Redff before in stating that he's near unreadable and a bit of a vi as far as he's concerned but he did have some minimal interaction with him.

Does anyone have any experience with dcl as scum? Does he tend to follow a pattern in the way he treats his partners?

[Lyanna Stark]

Assuming bvoigt flips scum, my town read on Tammy will be weakened by this:

So so so tired of Shadow doing nothing but sniping from the sidelines. Like really, I suppose according to Post 724 he's got some magnificent ~role~ he knows will keep him off the lynch/choose wagon but does that mean we have to be subjected to an entire game full of sniping/cutesy gifs/gloating type posts??? Like seriously, can we just lynch/choose him and be done with it? Please???

VOTE: Shadow

I realize this votes means nothing and I'll be moving it tomorrow, but if I had my ice cream and dreams of lynches it would be this one.

Meh, I don't know what to make of bvoigt. We just finished a game together in which he was scum and I got a scum read on him pretty quickly but that might have been due to his reaction to a reaction test. I don't like his responses in regard to satancat though. Feels natural enough, but the bit about town not defending themselves...eh...he used this as part of his case against me being scum when I wasn't in the game we just finished. I'm not sure I can be partial here...but he doesn't feel the same as when he was scum. But, I've seen him make a case against someone (me) when he was scum and it didn't look like his reasons for voting Sala.

Hmm...I realize self-meta is sometimes crap and you don't know my scum meta, but this should probably actually give you a stronger town read on me than weaker. One, I obviously gave a vote to a wagon that I thought wasn't going to take off so it couldn't be considered a counter wagon, and I had other counter wagons I could have joined that at the time had more potential. Two, and most importantly, look at that wishy-washy read of bvoigt. Not only that but when directly asked about bvoigt later I fencesat again. I'd say maybe maybe the first wishy-washy read, but definitely not the second. I could have easily used that game I referenced to give a more solid read on him and I would have if we were partners. Fence-sitting about partners is extremely uncharacteristic for me. If I go out of my way to talk about a partner or am asked, I tend to be way more exact than "I don't know what to think"

[Lyanna Stark]

Tammy: I doubt Feysal is sccum with DCL, they were opposing wagons on the same spectrum. His Jal vote is also 'because sheep'. I don't think he would randomly hop onto his scumpartner? If there's anything I'd call suspicious about that post it's that he mentions Benmage is bad but forgets to put him anywhere on his read spectrum. His vote for Regfan is stupid and sounds like 'you read my meta wrong how dare you'. He does mention the Pleiss hydra as being scum as an afterthought.

You are also probably not scum with him. :p

I also doubt that Feysal is scum with him, but I'm a bit wary of basing it on because they were opposing wagons. (Remember heterosexual revolution?) I think if Feysal and he were partners and Feysal were going to distance from him he'd give a better scum read for DCL than he did.

The Jal vote though was a throwaway as Edd was the only vote on Jal so it wasn't like it did anything at all and could be read as him putting an early distancing vote down on his partner.

I didn't notice the Benmage thing but I'm wondering if Benmage would be all "my partner is bleeding towniness...guys we have time to move to Feysal...look how town my partner is." I don't have any real experience with Benmage except him getting vigged in a game before I replaced in so I don't know if he's the type of player to behave this way with his partner though.

[Lyanna Stark]

I also doubt that Feysal is scum with him, but I'm a bit wary of basing it on because they were opposing wagons. (Remember heterosexual revolution?)

Absolutely not. I'm pretty sure that game never happened. My therapist tells me so. Regardless the condition you tried to imitate is a towntell for a reason. I think you also believe scum don't want to bus during multiball? I can't remember if you were scum when you said that though.

I supose Jal wasn't ever in real danger. I just don't think it's the first instinct of scum to hug their buddies.

- Not hydraing with a crazy poisoner this game

ROFL...sometimes I just adore you! Yes, but we imitated it because we knew that people would call it town.

I do believe that scum are less likely to bus in multiball, but that is my belief, which I told you while town during Experimental. However, I'm learning that even though that's my belief, and good practice, that's not everyone's.

Some scum do have an instinct of feeling like they need to vote their buddies right off the bat. I think it's a personal thing which is why I asked if anyone had any experience with DCL. He could be the type of person who thinks he needs to call his partner scum or vote for one of them. Some people do.

-I told you that crazy poisoner was scum, but nobody wanted to listen to me

[Lyanna Stark]

@Lyanna

Jal spent most of yesterday without a vote or a choose out there. I defended their lack of vote to edd as they said they needed to iso a few people and then would vote, but still they did not vote until deadline. The timing of their choose is suspect as well. In Post 1391 is a vote count with feysal at 8 choose votes and dcl with 12 votes. In Post 1395 jal says that dcl looks town and that she can't get a read on feysal so would prefer him.

I voted for Edd in my first post. In my third post I changed Edd to my Choose (to line up with the bigger wagons) and voted Snow.

I had no choose for approximately 3 hours after taking it off Edd. So other than my first two posts and about 3 hours on Sept 3 - how is that going without a choose for most of the day?

You have more of a case with with my vote, though which I admit I didn't put down on anyone for a long awhile

towards the end of the day

. Mostly because the wagon I actually wanted (Sap) didn't look like it would go anywhere and I hadn't at the time gone through and looked at everyone I wanted to. Still hadn't looked at the Stefan ISO at the end of the day, actually. Except to see his claim and the stupid references to Tyrion some claimed.

When did you "defend" my lack of vote to Edd? I tried looking at your ISO, but Ctrl-F can only go so far. Also, how would that relevant to anything? If you did defend it - so what?

How was the timing of my choose choice suspect? You just listed how many votes were on each when I voted, but you fail to explain why it is suspect. Actually, you just listed that information with nothing corresponding to it.

Okay, that still doesn't change the fact that when you removed your vote you went without one until deadline. My apologies for mistaking how long you went without a choose, I thought it had been longer.

I...don't have a case. I was merely noting your voting/choosing patterns along with Feysal's because CDL listed you both as scum. Considering, as I said, he listed one of his partners as scum in the scum game he provided it could point to a pattern as some people do feel the need to list one of their partners as scum and make sure to mention them. And, yes even though you want to argue against it, some scum also feel the need to give their partner a vote early in the game/soon after replacing in. Your arguing that he wouldn't irrelevant if it's a type of behavior that he engages in. It's not an exact science and is why I asked if anyone had any experience with scum DLC before.

For the rest, why am I having to spell out the obvious?

1. I didn't defend you; I was mistaken. I defended Mockinjaye for not voting when Edd was saying it was suspicious. So, I'm not a hypocrite. Yay! I think it's quite obvious that if I'm saying that an action is suspicious now. It's an acknowledgement of a previous stance that (I thought) I was reversing.

2. This one is even more surprising that you need spelled out. Feysal was the only other available wagon counter to DCL. Feysal had 8 votes and DCL had 12. You added a vote to the Feysal wagon. Well now that DCL flipped scum, it looks like you tried to throw momentum onto the counter wagon. This doesn't need to be explained as it's self explanatory. It's like when Zdenek brought up a post of mine and said if bvoigt flips scum then it would weaken the town read on me. I knew exactly what he meant because it looks like I avoided the bvoigt wagon and gave him a weak distancing read. I didn't have to ask for clarification because I knew and answered directly for what I did, and since you've played mafia before I have to believe that you would already know this bit about counterwagons so I'm really not following on why you needed it explained.

[Lyanna Stark]

That's not really an answer.

Actually, it is an answer. Just not the type of answer you're apparently looking for. So what

are

you looking for?

Nacho has usually been much more reserved in games I've been with him in.

How many games are you basing the meta read on?

[Lyanna Stark]

*have not sent my vote in*

I'll get back to this tomorrow.

[Lyanna Stark]

I...don't have a case. I was merely noting your voting/choosing patterns along with Feysal's because CDL listed you both as scum. Considering, as I said, he listed one of his partners as scum in the scum game he provided it could point to a pattern as some people do feel the need to list one of their partners as scum and make sure to mention them. And, yes even though you want to argue against it, some scum also feel the need to give their partner a vote early in the game/soon after replacing in. Your arguing that he wouldn't irrelevant if it's a type of behavior that he engages in. It's not an exact science and is why I asked if anyone had any experience with scum DLC before.

For the rest, why am I having to spell out the obvious?

1. I didn't defend you; I was mistaken. I defended Mockinjaye for not voting when Edd was saying it was suspicious. So, I'm not a hypocrite. Yay! I think it's quite obvious that if I'm saying that an action is suspicious now. It's an acknowledgement of a previous stance that (I thought) I was reversing.

2. This one is even more surprising that you need spelled out. Feysal was the only other available wagon counter to DCL. Feysal had 8 votes and DCL had 12. You added a vote to the Feysal wagon. Well now that DCL flipped scum, it looks like you tried to throw momentum onto the counter wagon. This doesn't need to be explained as it's self explanatory. It's like when Zdenek brought up a post of mine and said if bvoigt flips scum then it would weaken the town read on me. I knew exactly what he meant because it looks like I avoided the bvoigt wagon and gave him a weak distancing read. I didn't have to ask for clarification because I knew and answered directly for what I did, and since you've played mafia before I have to believe that you would already know this bit about counterwagons so I'm really not following on why you needed it explained.

More of a case, meaning, you have more of a point to make.

For the rest of your post, don't try to turn this back on me. Spell it out for me, eh?

I had to make you aware of your mistake. Also, I never called you a hypocrite or even insinuated it, so stop that bullshit now. Yeah, when you say stuff which isn't true, expect to be both asked and called out about it. Get over it. Your over-defensiveness of having me point this out to you is scummy as shit. The other problem is, it's that you feel a need to almost somehow distance yourself from me. There's no reason, at all, to bring up how tried to defend me to Edd even though you're wrong.

This

is odd and I don't like it one bit.

For the next part, I'll ask this: Other than choosing Feysal towards the end of the day, in what way would you say I was actively trying to get momentum for his lynch instead of DCL?

Also, did you go back through and reread the part where I said DCL leans town, or did you ISO me?

Oh my gawd this is so delicious I'm actually replying to this idiocy from a bar.

I'd like for you to spell out what you think I turned back on you. Like really spell it put slowly because apparently were playing two different games. I explained myself and my position to you. You don't like that? Too bad.

I have no problem whatsoever that I made a mistake. I said I defended the wrong person. I'd l,Ike for you to explain to me what benefit you think I made by making a mistake in who I defended yesterday. Do you even pay attention to the shit you right. There is absolutely none...zero...scumminess in me thinking I defended you when I actually defended something else, do you actually think you found scum because I mixed up who I defended. Do you seriously think I was defensive? What pray tell would I be defensive about and what do you think you caught? And seriously what is your problem? I exhibited exactly none on the defensiveness scale because I don't have anything whatsoever to be defensive about. Though I am now annoyed...so congratulations?

But you're not looking so good.

I'm distancing myself from you?

Oh my god. Go back to road to Rome you still have a lot to learn doll.

[Lyanna Stark]

For the next part, I'll ask this: Other than choosing Feysal towards the end of the day, in what way would you say I was actively trying to get momentum for his lynch instead of DCL?

Also, did you go back through and reread the part where I said DCL leans town, or did you ISO me?

Oh totally forgot to answer this question here. Um no *wide eyed* I totally did not iso you at all. I didn't catch that. I just rambled off base shit.

Of course I iso'd you. What kind of question is that. Yes, you said he was leaning town, congratulations. That does not negate the fact that you chose the counter wagon to scum.

Deal with it.

You might note that I didn't say you were scum because of it. There's this little thing in mafia in which we examine the actions of people in relation to scum. And when your actions look suspicious, they get noted. Your defensive act here is ridiculous because you're acting as if I'm voting for you and calling you scum, instead of as I said noting the actions of the individuals whom DCL listed as scum. Is that coming across? Do I need to type slower? Cuz I totally will.

[Lyanna Stark]

No, the weird thing is I've not even called Jal scum. I'm actually kind of at a loss for Jal's reaction to me. The only reason why I even posted anything about Jal was because DCL listed her and Feysal as scum, so I examined both of their actions in regard to yesterday's vote and ended it with a statement that looking at scum patterns wasn't an exact science and asked if anyone had any experience with DCL scum. I even acknowledged and apologized for making a mistake in my first post.

She reacted badly to a really innocuous post, and then seemed oddly offended that I claimed to defend her when I didn't. I said yay I wasn't a hypocrite because it wasn't actually her I defended but mockinjaye, and she totally lost her shit on that. I have absolutely no clue why.

I'm just at a loss at her reaction to it and me, so I'm gonna probe it.

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh my god. Go back to road to Rome you still have a lot to learn doll.

Jal I just realized that you are rather new, and therefore this was really mean. I'm sorry for that, I didn't mean to be mean.

[Lyanna Stark]

LoL fake dayvig. Thankfully tierce didn't react like the last time.

I've sent in my jail keep.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay for the Godhand thing is it best to vote someone who:

You have a town read on but others don't?
You have a slight scum read on but can't really point to why?
You think has a chance to either alignment but are unlikely to be night killed or lynched and could be a danger in lylo?
Something else I'm missing?

------------
Edd

Pretty sure shinori's a guy.

Cool role!

Interesting interpretatn of BB's message. If they don't know who each other are that could explain why bvoigt said to make sure the choices make sense for town. I interpreted it as them not having day talk. But, I'm wondering how possible that could be. How would they coordinate night kills if they don't know each other?

My vote is on sapo in spirit right now. I didn't see the question to the mod as a scum slip, but the way they offered detailed proof of how the conversation went was more consistent with scum behavior.

Also, since Sapo will flip immediately, and I can't imagine how we'd vote anyone else at this point, can we do this relatively quickly? If they flip one of the factions, we could spend the rest of the day on analysis of them both and potentially wipe out one faction today. Although I'd suppose the factions could be larger than 3 and 3 given the roles and mechanics of the game, but someone who understands balance better than I do could answer that.

[Lyanna Stark]

My list - myself, Tyene, Plum Momma, Magua, Reg, Benmage, MoS ... and maybe I could have my arm wrung to Minimum. No chance anyone outside this group gets my Godhand vote.

I prefer Regfan - Minimum - Benmage in that order. No one else really. Tyene is obv town. MoS is scum, and doesn't need waiting till day6 to get lynched (actually he prob does, since Staeg/Jal/Mocking need death before him, but etc). Plum is leaning town, and he's not really a threat, and if he's scum, he'll prob get caught by PoE sooner or later. Magua is meh; cow already put a townread on that slot, and while it's not as concrete as some of the others, if he's scum PoE will sooner or later kick in. MoI is just weird with "I should be chosen day1" "I should be Godhanded day1" etc. So I can maybeee consider him as a compromise. But he's leaning town for his thinking/ideas that seem to come from town.

Do you really have a potential scum read on regfan? I think a Godhand on him would be a waste, with the exception of making sure he lives to tomorrow. He described the difference between his town/scum game to Zdenek and wasn't lying about his difference in play. He's a good scum player but there is a noticeable difference between his town/scum play that I think by day 4/5 you would be able to tell if not sooner than that.

Did you pay attention to the fringe game after we lynched you on day two? He was converted on night one, and if you remember his play was quite different afterwards. I remember faraday commenting in the dead qt That regfan started lurking as soon as he became scum. Even his rather protown play as athird party in mafia behind the maiden was significantly different than here.

I get being paranoid of him, but I'd be absolutely shocked if he was scum here.

[Lyanna Stark]

I have to run out, but real quick. Wyman Manderly is technically a part of the Lannister Alliance as the Lannisters believe that Wyman Manderly has killed Davos in the books and is on their side. And, it's not until their journey north to Winterfell that he starts showing any sign of rebellion (with the exception of just prior in sending Davos to find Ricken). His role searching Frey's makes sense for his character as the Frey's have been holding Wyman's son captive since the Red Wedding and killed another one if I remember correctly.

It's also a really limited role. It reminds me of the role I had in Faraday's Wheel of Time game at another site. I had an investigative role that only told me if the person was a woman with magical powers. It didn't tell me anything about alignment or what power they had, and basically all I could do is bust if someone lied about that one aspect. The scum team was given a full investigative role though. I don't know how much relevance that has to this game, but I'm trying to figure out what use a Frey Cop would be to a scum team.

Kortul - I'm not sure what you're questioning about my statement about people who are unlikely to be nightkilled and unlikely to be lynched. There are always people like that in games.

[Lyanna Stark]

I had to read it three times to figure out what lie ces was referring to. I don't know if it's necessarily a lie though, depending on the way arhturs target resolves. Doesn't really matter anyway though.

HURT: sapoerint

[Lyanna Stark]

I was wondering if edd's actn would essentially be a day target instead of night because it's a day type action. If that's the case it might not none a night target in the traditional sense.

[Lyanna Stark]

My god handing preferences would be plum, Feysal, benmage, magua, mos. I could go for tyene also - I'm townreading her but paranoia sucks.

Scumhunter - since you just got done playing a game where you were bvoigt's partner, you could look into him and sapo? Or complain about lynching moi which we're not doing. Or be lazy and do nothing...

I'm not a fan at all of jal's most recent postings. I'm not going to repeat the things that MoI's stated towards her because he's mentioned the same things that bothered me. I'm trying to decide what I think of it. I can't decide if the attitude is that of someone who is new and is finding her way in being an aggressivish type player and is confused about some things and it's coming out as frustration or if it's someone who is trying to replicate an innocent aggressive playstle as scum and it's coming out as a weird over angry/over aggressive type way. Some of the things she gets defensive about are odd (and yes, this is coming from queen over defensive), but it just doesn't ring right sometimes. I don't really have time to explain what I mean in full...busy will have more time tomorrow...but the recent questioning/interaction with edd bothered me. Particularly statements like "not cutting it" was unnecessarily aggressive and seemed like she was keeping up the fight with him just for the sake of keeping up the fight with him. Then she comes back with "perhaps I don't understand the mechanics of your role". Perhaps you should inquire into the mechanics of the role before you start accusing him.

I haven't had a chance to look over bvoigt or sapo yet, ill start working on that tomorrow when I have more time.

[Lyanna Stark]

Get your "unnecessarily aggressive" crap out of here. Reread the thread and come back to me also. Or instead of standing on the sidelines today, just vote for me so we can

just make sure

what my alignment is because I am really sick of your "I DUNNO HOW I FEEL ABOUT THIS" shenanigans.

Hmmm...first off I don't take orders from anyone, so yeah. I'll let you keep your head this time though, I'm nothing if not benevolent. :p Annnnnnnd you are proving my point about your unnecessary aggression. I'm making an observation, one that I've been noticing and have been trying to make sense of. You don't like people commenting on the way your interacting with others and noting the oddities? You do realize you're playing mafia right and thats the point?

Eh, not standing on the sidelines, so I'm not sure your point. Also, why do you want me to vote you so badly. Why do you want edd to vote you so badly? Or why do you want us to think you want us to vote you so badly. You do realize that he has a scum read on stage too and that you're not the center of his world, right? What do you make of his alignment that he decided stage should be lynched today and not tomorrow according to his plan? I can, to a certain extent, understand some of your frustration if you're town and edds coming after you. He's pretty persistent but he's always reevaluating so it doesn't phase me one bit that he's switching up his lists.

Why would I vote for you when I haven't decided if I believe your attitude is reminiscent of scum attempting to replicate an innocent aggressive playstle and failing miserably or a frustrated innocent who's a bit newish and trying to keep up and is lashing put at anyone who comments on them.

Reaaaaallllllyyyyy couldn't care less if your sick of me not being sure about some things. I'm not going to force reads for you or anyone. I care more about trying to be as accurate as I can. Sometimes it comes quickly, other times it takes more thought.

[Lyanna Stark]

Well, I do think he is probably town.

I'm mostly frustrated and surprised what he says actually gets anywhere.

If you think he's town, why the attitude? If you thik he's town then you have to believe his suspicions are genuine. Therefore, the cocky aggressive how dare you attitude doesn't make as much sense and you seem to be fighting for the sake of fighting.

Why are you frustrated and surprised anything he says gets anywhere and how do you see anything he says getting anywhere? He's been calling you scum, and I only remember two, at max, others saying this as well. (this is from memory and could be wrong. Feel free to point out where I was mistaken, and note I don't care about being. Wrong so no reason to rant about that either).

[Lyanna Stark]

And another thing: are we agreed that I have something that investigates stuff (aka do you think that me and shinori aren't buddies, and even if we are, it goes a bit further)? This goes to everyone.

Possibly? I mean it makes the most sense. And shinori's not behaving like scum so it makes sense? But I'm not understanding the point of the question.

I don't thik the investigation choices are bad given the reasons though. I think most of the games I've played in peoples choices have been called absolute crap, so I don't think that's a fair point being brought against you.

[Lyanna Stark]

It depends. Are you town, BB?

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

CHOOSE: Tammy

No, I am third party. Griff, the Unlyncher Cop. I get to investigate everyone who you target. I win if you target scum. I lose if you get lynched before that happens.

Choose: MoS

In thinking about the Aegon faction and some of the flavor of the book, I remembered that Jon connington, while in hiding, renamed himself Griff, and named Aegon Griff jr.

[Lyanna Stark]

Reading through Sala, and I don't see minimum and sala being partnered based on how much they interacted. Sala kept asking minimum to explain why he was scum, but he had very little interaction with bvoigt who had made a case against him. Sala's interactions with bvoigt are very sparse and are reminiscent of someone unsure of how to interact with a partner. I don't get that from his minimum interactions. He also listed bvoigt in his null list while listing minimum in his scum list. In the KH's game he thought that bussing was playing against your win con so thought that one scum would not call their partner scum. That game wasn't too long ago, so I don't think he's changed that much. On that basis I think we could conclude that neither minimum or shinori are likely partners to him.

[Lyanna Stark]

^^^based on his list in Post 433

Refers to my post right above the cut.

[Lyanna Stark]

Godhand: plums yo mama

Since it looks like its definitely going this way and people can't be bothered not to place a real vote until we're done with this.

[Lyanna Stark]

Dammit.

Godhand plums yo mama

[Lyanna Stark]

This is frustrating. I have noe idea why you guys lynched so early into the day when we haven't discussed anything. Magua's point about minimum was stupid. The only reason why no one had offered anyone else than staeg was because the day has been mostly about the trial and then the Godhand. Sure they may have been the lynch but there was no reason to lynch him right this second.

Jal - have you ever heard the phrase "never argue with a fool. Onlookers might not be able to tell the difference" ? Totally applies here. Edds not an idiot though and what you stated makes little sense. Perhaps If you checked your attitude you'd be able to get whatever point it is you have across and come to an understanding (I know right? I just told someone else about their attitude :p )

I had something I was going to say about z and now I cant remember. My head is pounding and I'm going back to bed.

[Lyanna Stark]

I jumped to conclusions and thought scum role cop along with something I can't quite say cause rules, it seemed like he was following his scum meta to me partially. That and his play and connections/reactions didn't look good to me. So I thought he was scum. I pushed what I thought was scum.

If you are going to lynch me then do so, I've played bad, but I can guarantee I am town. If we want I can out my night results for the past night as well, it doesn't show much but it implicates someone as most likely innocent more than being scum. I'll still be able to live for one more day, not that it will help too much.

Can you tell me what about his connections didn't look good? Because Wednesday I had spent a good amount of time looking at his reactions with sapo/sala/bvoigt and had come to the opposite conclusion. I wanted to read through them again to be sure and look at dcl before I said anything and didnt expect the pile up from out of the blue.

I'm for hearing whatever results you have but others might not agree.

[Lyanna Stark]

skimmed through parts of the game, probly not going to go through the whole thing.

I don't think Feysal scumslipped. (But with that being said, the people who pointed out his high level of theory to content have a point. His vote in#47 simply seems like a disagreement in theory to me.)

hesitant to bus a buddy? maybe

pretty sure feysal is not with the stannis faction tho:

-Me and feysal are crossvoting.

So despite redFF morphing into a hellcat and there being quite a few people agreeing in the scuminess, I've been left stranded as usual. Whatever, I don't even care anymore. Since none of you are going to listen to me I'm going to blatantly sheep the only person who matters.##Unchoose##Choose: greenknight

was any of greenknight's post scummy to you at this point?

What about these three posts stood out to you in the 90 pages of the game?

[Lyanna Stark]

Vote: Anxiety

is that a vote for me or my replacee?

thinking it might be a good idea to greyscale a claimed pr to ensure they can survive the night, use one last action, and be able to share results the next day.

I saw shinori claimed tracker, and minimum an investigative role. Can someone tell what exactly they've claimed so far and if there are any other claims?

currently leaning towards shinori being greyscaled cause I have a hard time reading him. Don't think he should reveal his night result yet; if he happens to be greyscaled he can do that tommorow.

I think shinori's a follower, and I don't remember minimum claiming an investigative role.

Also, you're suggesting we lynch a pr instead of scum today so they can use their role once more? What would be the benefit to that?

[Lyanna Stark]

*stretches* mmmm felt like that was going to be a mislynch.

I'll analyze some soon and go from there.

Then why'd you vote for him?

[Lyanna Stark]

*stretches* mmmm felt like that was going to be a mislynch.

I'll analyze some soon and go from there.

Then why'd you vote for him?

Reasons.

Why?

So, you voted for someone you believed was going to be a mislynch days before deadline when you didn't have to' and you're wondering why I'm asking?

How often do you vote for people you believe will be a mislynch when it's not necessary for you to do so, and then afterwards go " yeah, dude, totally thought that'd be a mislynch."?

[Lyanna Stark]

*stretches* mmmm felt like that was going to be a mislynch.

I'll analyze some soon and go from there.

Then why'd you vote for him?

Reasons.

Why?

So, you voted for someone you believed was going to be a mislynch days before deadline when you didn't have to' and

you're wondering why I'm asking?

Yes. Why?

I really don't have the time or patience to deal with someone pretending they're a three year old and just asking why without actually answering the question asked.

I would like to know why you would vote for someone you thought would be a mislynch in the first place. And then secondly come in and say " totally thought that would be a mislynch bro."

Don't ask me why again. It's self explanatory why'd I'd like to know. I'm obviously trying to make a determination of you.

[Lyanna Stark]

Our "investigative role" was useless and its only effect was that you'd get a different result on that player. But yes, limited cops are perfectly viable roles. (P-edit: don't believe they were randomly distributed.)

ehh I guess this was about another game.

Oh, yeah, that was another game.

Also, you're suggesting we lynch a pr instead of scum today so they can use their role once more? What would be the benefit to that?

its not like a majority lynch is more likely to catch scum than a pr. I think lynching a person who I am unsure about who has claimed pr is a good trade off in this mechanic if they turn out to be town, considering they would've probly died at night anyway with this being multiball.[/quote]

Hmmm...makes sense I guess. The unsure about part does, I wouldn't be wiling to lynch a town read just for that.

[Lyanna Stark]

Benmage

[Lyanna Stark]

Dammit.

VOTE: Benmage

[Lyanna Stark]

Lets hope for your case thats a real read. (Albeit terrible) And not just "

he won't answer my question the way I want herpderp" *takes ball and leaves*

Oh for my sake! I have a tendency to attribute blatant obtuseness to town, but I seem to remember you bragging about your scum game, which would mean that you have the capability of pulling that off as scum as well. No herpderp about it. If I can't make a determination of you from your answer to a simple question, I'll figure out another way to. And, no I didn't have a read on you either way, hence why I asked. If I had a town read on you, I probably wouldn't have even asked you about that. Well, maybe I would have but meh who knows.

Actually sure. Why am I scum?

OH! We're supposed to start voting for people we think are scum??? I wasn't aware of that. I thought we could just vote for anyone, even if we thought it was likely to be a mislynch, if we had ~reasons~. Glad you cleared that one up.

[Lyanna Stark]

Not helpful, Tammy. Just play around benmage and vote for the evil mockingjaye; it's what all the cool people are doing.

But yesterday all the cool people were voting for the "evil" Staeg, and look where that got us. Besides, I'm not sure on Mockingjaye. I re-read through her this morning, and with the exception of her not being on one of the major choose wagons, I'm not seeing a whole lot of alarms. I need to re-read again though, but for some reason I didn't think she fit with Sapo/sala/bvoigt, I can't remember why I thought that though, so this might be negated when I read again. The not being on either of the major choose wagons would only make sense if she DCL and Feysal were partnered though, because why wouldn't she just choose Feysal if partnered with DCL?

[Lyanna Stark]

Or even choose DCL to make herself look good. I don't get why she'd choose you guys when your choose wagon had died down.

[Lyanna Stark]

Enacting ignore Benmage as suggested now.

Hahahahah...if you think I'm going to answer questions from you Benmage when you refuse to answer a simple one from me.

I don't answer to others. Silly peasants should know that by now.

[Lyanna Stark]

Yes, it did. Because the morning of the lynch I was a little surprised to see you voting for him when you had countered the issue about the fake claims/role issue. And I'm trying to make sense of everyone right now. Now, do I think that you would, as scum, go yeah I thought that would be a mislynch. Probably not, but I have a whole swathe of people I have pretty much no read on at the moment.

So, to answer your question, I don't know right now. I've been fairly useless with scum reads this game and part of that is because of how the game has gone, and I tend to be a bit cautious with reads anyway, especially when I make a lot of mistakes in a recent game. I tend to get lazy when we have confirmed scum. So, day two was basically about the bvoigt lynch and waiting to see what he flipped, then the first part of yesterday was about sapo/edd and waiting to see what they flipped then the godhand. I was just starting to get back to re-reading and analyzing the game when you guys piled up on Staeg Wednesday, which is especially annoying after I spent a good chunk of time on Wednesday looking at Staeg and his connections to sapo/sala/bvoigt. And I don't read in night, so I'm pretty much starting from scratch again right now. I have people I feel really good about (Regfan, Pandora, BBMolla, Zdenek) then people I feel relatively good about to varying degrees (Magua, Minimum, Tyene, Plum and you actually). Then there's everyone else that I'm unsure of and I need to spend time looking at.

And this was a longer answer than you probably wanted or needed and now I'm late to throw some d20s and kill things.

I only voted for you to see what your reaction would be though and see if your reaction would help me with my read on you. I'm going to leave it while I'm out though because it looks pretty there.

[Lyanna Stark]

^^^to Benmage

[Lyanna Stark]

I have a hard time thinking you'd make such a firm value judgment on my alignment solely on the fact I hadn't posted, particularly because you know I tend to lurk/be bad at times and particularly because my slot looked very town before I replaced in. You of all people, having hydra'd what ~5 games or so, should and would know what a chore it can be to get me to read a thread that is 20 pages with 13 players much less this. Also, not completely buying that #1999 and #2006 were sincere attempts to get me involved, but what do I know, this was the first time I was reading those posts, lol! Oh and I completely realize my play so far has been bad/taking up space/not trying to analyze anything, but hey bad play does not a scumlord make.

Er...your slot didn't actually look very town before you replaced in. Your slot made what sounded like a very town suggestion, but then lurked away a lot of pressure while being relatively active elsewhere. So, your slot might be town, but definitely isn't lol!town, and I'm not sure where you're getting her being lol!newbtown either.

Also, why is it that the only thing you've read this game is your predecessor's slot?

I can totally see where regfan is suspicious of you as your play is pretty reminiscent to leprechaun mafia right now.

As far as what you should do? The other day I suggested you look at bvoigt/Salamanca/Saporerint since they flipped Aegon and you just finished being partners with bvoigt so you might be more acquainted with how he would interact with partners. Mockingjaye (now anxiety) has been the suggested lynch today, so start there?

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna, your vote on Benmage is a punch-in-the gut reminder of your questioning of Snowstorm for voting, and keeping a vote on town read Benmage, especially when you say you have good feelings about him yet your keep your vote on. I don't like it. What did you get out of your questioning of Benmage?

Why did you feel the need to comment on why MoI was killed?

Oh do I get to be your Edd for the day? Totally looking forward to that

This to me looks like you are once again, being aggressive and questioning for the sake of looking busy. If you would have read what I wrote, you would know the answer to both of your questions. Since I obviously put him in my list of feeling relatively good about AFTER our conversation, my questioning helped my relatively good feelings. Also, here:

I only voted for you to see what your reaction would be though and see if your reaction would help me with my read on you. I'm going to leave it while I'm out though because it looks pretty there.

How does that not tell you why I voted for him? Reeeeallllllyyyyy couldn't care less if you don't like it. I didn't unvote because I forgot it was there, and now I'm going to leave it there a little while longer because it still looks pretty there and because you're stretching and "don't like it". Since I clearly said it was a reaction vote, that I would remove when I got back home, there is no way no how anyone could think that's a serious vote. If you wanted to know why it was still there, even though I've only posted once since, you could have just asked. What seems odd to me is your melodramatic "O la, punch in the gut reminder" :faint: Which is clearly designed to paint something other than what it actually is. Also, if you want to compare it to the punch in the gut to what I said to SnowStorm, you should probably make sure you're being accurate.

Hmm...this is the only post you have made today and I don't like your response. I didn't pick up on this only for you keeping your vote on Ben. I've done a similar thing a ton of times. I've voted someone and decided they're town but not unvoted them. I don't think it's inherently scummy, but when I've done it I've usually made an announcement that that is what I have done and that I will move it when I decide who it's going to go onto if I for whatever reason don't unvote...

So how is that a punch in the gut. I clearly said to SnowStorm that I wasn't questioning him only about that, especially considering it's something that I do from time to time. My picking up on that with SnowStorm was in addition to other things I found suspicious about him, which I told him about in that post, and my entire conversation with him was designed to get a read on him.

So, what is it that you don't like about the vote still being there when I made it completely clear that I would remove it? (Sure, I meant to do it last night, but didn't come back to the game and only made a quick post on a break today.)

And since you wanted to know what I got out of questioning Benmage, I'd like for you to tell me what do you think you'd get out of questioning me about this and scolding me for my bad memory? Am I scum for forgetting to remove a vote I made clear was only a reaction vote in the first place? Why are you concerned about what I got out of my interaction with Benmage?

[Lyanna Stark]

Most of us made a list of our preferences, and some based it on good players unlikely to be lynched or night killed whose alignment we'd like confirmed either way. Plum mamma was on the majority of people's lists. Moi and I think kortul were keeping track of who wanted who godhanded if you're interested in peoples choices.

[Lyanna Stark]

Eh...pandora you can join me in trying to figure out what's so bad about mjaye. Not perfect, but not screaming scum at me either.

Also with shinori, it's frustratings, and I wish he'd stop saying he's playing bad, because every time he does it reminds me of leprechaun where he claimed he was just bad and was scum, but none of the rest of his demeanor is anything like how I've seen him as scum before. His jumping of conclusions with his role reminds me of kingdom hearts when platinum shadow tried to use a role on me night be and was unable to, misunderstood that, thought her role was investigative in nature and jumped to the wild conclusion I was scum because of it. In short, it's irritating, and we on the outside can go " um why...he could have investigated and confirmed you thereby clearing itself in the process" but jumping to conclusions is jumping to conclusions. I've seen shinori claim a different role than he had as scum (he claimed watcher when he was rolecop, so it makes sense he would jump to scum!investigator) but...damn I forgot what I was going to say...got interrupted. Mostly I don't think shinori is scum, but of he is will make it pretty clear from his interactns.

Okay going to drik, now, will pay proper attention to this game tomorrow.

[Lyanna Stark]

@Lyanna, for once in this game, I'd like to see you actually respond to a post without a bunch of meaningless junk at the beginning.

You were one of two people I asked a question to or made a comment about not including MoI. Yours was short and sweet and wasn't hostile at all. Again, you are being overly defensive and I can't for the world figure out why. Pointing out something and asking a question is not being aggressive. I clearly said I was looking towards Minimum. So why do you think you're so special today instead?

I'm special every day. I have no idea what you are talking about. If you are referring to me saying that about Edd, your question/statement to me was silly and complete fluff. As I pointed out to you the answer to the question was in my responses if you had read. You argued with Edd for the old gods know what yesterday, and since you were also acting strangely aggressive with me yesterday and asked me a question to look busy today I can see where your lazer focus will probably go and will do what I can to head it off. It's not something I will put up with or continue with you when it does nothing whatsoever to forward the game and is nothing but a distraction.

And touche, for once, I'd like to see you not reacting to stuff just to look busy, argue with someone unnecessarily, or explain why you're not scum. Also, you might note, I didn't call you hostile. I said that you were being unnecessarily aggressive and melodramatic and were painting something as other than what it obviously was. You might want to look those words up in a dictionary.

I get it, you want to be a badass...you want to show your aggressive and you don't care about your image. Maybe you think that it will make you look innocent. Maybe you think that's how you're supposed to act, but it's coming off quite unnaturally. What it's resulting in is you just looking busy. And, noted, your condescension is soooo cute.

I'm not being over-defensive at all. I don't have to be. I see you being busy for the sake of being busy. Now maybe you don't know what you should comment on or how, and I'm making allowances for that, so it might not be alignment indicative, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to point it out.

And note, you didn't merely point out something and ask a question. You mischaracterized something went "Oh punch in the gut blah blah blah...I don't like it. Pointless Question". The point of it is that if you would have actually read what I wrote, there would be absolutely no reason for you to ask me the question you did or go melodramatic about it. The fact that you don't even recognize that is pretty worrisome.

I clearly said to SnowStorm that I wasn't questioning him only about that, especially considering it's something that I do from time to time. My picking up on that with SnowStorm was in addition to other things I found suspicious about him, which I told him about in that post, and my entire conversation with him was designed to get a read on him.

This is an overdrawn explanation for a simple observation I made.

I do not care that you questioned him about other things. It's not even relevant to this conversation. I'm pointing out how you're essentially doing the same thing you pointed out Snow of being scummy for. Can I believe that your post 333 was trying to scope out a reaction from Snow? Definitely. But you did pick up on it and I do think you were pointing it out as scummy - you also made a distinction between him doing it and

you

doing it.

Good we're on the same page then. I couldn't care less that you "DON'T LIKE" that I forgot to remove a vote I MADE CLEAR WAS A REACTION VOTE IN THE FIRST PLACE THAT I WAS GOING TO REMOVE. I cleared up for you the error of your ways in comparing that to what I said to Snowstorm. But, if you had bothered to read and process what I wrote, you would not have made the error in the first place. You really are cute, but you are either misreading or mischaracterizing two issues. Whether you are doing it deliberately or just are unable to understand the distinction, I'm not sure.

But, LOFL, did you actually just state that my actual words to Snowstorm were not relevant to this conversation. Wait. I'm um...okay. You do remember that you were the one who compared what I did to what I said to Snowstorm. You are, right? I mean I'm not reading the wrong thread am I? I want you to think on that one. You do know what context is right? You do know what the actual words stated versus your misconstrued image is right? Yes, you're right I did compare what he did to what I do...and your point is what exactly?

Okay so, now that you've refreshed your memory on what SnowStorm did and what I said to him, why don't you read the context around me voting for Benmage and tell me what is the punch-in-the-gut reminder of the SnowStorm issue and you don't like it :frown I'm a badass:. Because if you can't see the difference, and if you can't see why I think you're just commenting on it to distort and look busy, then I don't know what to tell you.

Did you miss the part where I said it was a reaction vote that I would remove when I got home? Please say yes. Because it would make so much more sense if you just admitted you didn't read.

You did not make a simple observation. A simple observation would look like this..."Hey Lyanna, I saw that you voted for Benmage for a reaction, you said you'd remove it but haven't and posted since. What's up with that?" To which, I would have simply removed it after saying that I forgot.

You did not do that. Re-read what I wrote to Benmage, then read your "simple observation" and really stand by what you're saying here.

And since you wanted to know what I got out of questioning Benmage, I'd like for you to tell me what do you think you'd get out of questioning me about this and scolding me for my bad memory? Am I scum for forgetting to remove a vote I made clear was only a reaction vote in the first place? Why are you concerned about what I got out of my interaction with Benmage?

To get a reaction out of you, of course.

Are you going to answer my question about Benmage properly now without the fluff? Did it help or what?

So, you mischaracterized an action by comparing it to something it wasn't like and asked a pointless question that would have been answered if you had actually read what I wrote to get a reaction out of me. That's...really stupid.

Since you're apparently reading-challenged, I'll post what I ALREADY posted:

Since I obviously put him in my list of feeling relatively good about AFTER our conversation, my questioning helped my relatively good feelings.

And note: I'm not debating this anymore unless you actually read and process what I wrote. I will not get into some argument with you so you can spout inanities at me like you did Edd yesterday. That is nothing but a distraction that does nothing but help scum. I want to see you actually scum hunting today, and not just trying to look busy by arguing with people you will make no headway with. I don't buy into the "no scum would behave that way" nonsense that some others do. I've seen scum employ your very tactic in hopes of not looking like scum.

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh yeah, meant to do this earlier and forgot again.

unvote

[Lyanna Stark]

BB - can you explain your jal scum read to me. I'm having trouble with my read on her.

[Lyanna Stark]

Don't give BB an Aegon-pass for his role PM claim. Yes, BB doesn't like playing scum, but that would totally be the reckless move he would do as part of that faction.

I'm reading BB as town anyway, but I doubt he's Aegon related based on the way that Sala interacted with him. If you look at the way he interacted with bvoigt, and how little, compared to how he interacted with BB, there's a noticeable difference.

[Lyanna Stark]

Going through ISOs takes more time than i thought, so hopefully will finish tomorrow, eyes are closing. And reading conversations between Lyanna and Jal lately is like climbing a mountain...

And I had been doing relatively well at containing my annoyance until now

[Lyanna Stark]

Burden of proficiency is exactly what it is that I'm doing with you and Minimum. However, it's far from stupid. Especially since I know you're as big a believer in meta as I am.

I know you're a big fan of meta but how does her scum meta match here? When tierce was scum in experimental mafia, she barely referenced or interacted with her partners; she definitely didn't go after them. Sure, she's capable of changing her meta, but how she has behaved so far would be rather dangerous for her in multiball. She was the first to point out that redff looked like scum and she pointed out the sapo slip. So she's gone after both teams which would be reckless for her longevity as scum. I just think as scum she'd be a little more careful than she has.

(although just going to say how annoyed at myself I'll be if tierce is scum in the first game I'm consistently reading her as town, but I don't think she is.)

[Lyanna Stark]

Cut: Stictly speaking, as much as Miss Sand is the very best like no one ever was I wouldn't say she's being that dangerous right now, being on vacation and all. And as Polite Mafia showed the most likely person to pick up a scumslip is scum so etc. It's been four days and we're still barely through the chaf of power roles dying before 'obvtowns'. Maybe you should start arguing with her again >.>

I suppose. I meant going after both teams. However, if it is true that the Aegon faction is split up then some of this doesn't mean as much? You're a bad influence Shadoweh, I'm trying not to be so bitchy and argumentative this game. And, I don't have a reason to anyway.

I'm going to think about what you said about Shinori, and I'm finding myself in agreement with Zdenek.

[Lyanna Stark]

Cut:

Hey that post could have been anyone

I'd also point out that one team can't really go after the other on purpose.

Oh, derp, you're right.

Are you implying I'm bitchy and argumentative? *me runs to whitewash Experimental Mafia*

Not at all. But while you're out whitewashing games, could you have a go at Mafia behind the Maiden? Thanks.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay, just made my way through MJaye again. She focuses on people but does so in a kind of mechanical manner that focuses on really shallow things - just what people say or do but doesn't seem to be trying to understand the motivations behind them. She seemed to be going after easy people like Starbuck/minimum/Edd/Hyperion/Shadow...basically people that a lot of people were saying seemed scummy and then elaborating on that. She does have a bit of a small focus though. She says she's reviewing more people but doesn't really go into them the way she does those in the list already mentioned. Her choose on minimum comes at kind of an odd time. She unchooses Shadow and votes Shadow as the wagon was building on bvoigt and Shadow. She at the same time in Post 1274 chooses Minimum. Actually the wagon was also building on Saporerint. In the vote count before her vote for Shadow Post 1243, Sapo had 6 votes, bvoigt had 9 votes and Shadow had 5. This is interesting. I've been looking mostly at her in ISO, so I'll need to come back to this again when I can read it in context and see what, if anything, Sala/Sapo/bvoigt said about MJaye.

So, at the time that she moved from the Shadow choose wagon she moved onto the Minimum choose wagon which was just as small as the Shadow wagon. But, the Feysal wagon was 9 at the time, and she never changed this choose, so she never had to make a choice between Feysal and DCL though, but she gave basic town reads on them both, or town leaning reads in Post 1464 and voted for Stefan in this post while saying she could vote for either bvoigt or Stefan.

However, I do like Post 1930 in which she changes some of her reads and gives and updated where she's at. That kind of evolving reads is something that is not usually present in new scum and it looked like she was starting to broaden her focus a little.

I hated her jump on the Staeg wagon, however, as it showed extremely little examination of him and the weak excuse for the role and wifom was lacking.

In short, she doesn't look great. Her not being on either the Feysal or DCL choose wagon doesn't make sense, as she went for a wagon that had no chance of taking off, and she chose to vote for Shadow instead of either the bvoigt or Sapo wagon at a time when both were on the rise. Her lack of activity would be troublesome but there was the hurricane she had to contend with.

Sala - only mentioned her to put her in his null reads (he also placed bvoigt in the null reads.)
Sapo - commented on that one post that Zdenek commented on which was rather wishy-washy and put her in her ambivalence section
Bvoigt - didn't interact with her at all, but put her as green in his final reads list

DCL - did not mention her once.

On paper, she could fit with either faction...I guess. I feel like something's missing though. I need to sit down with the game and re-read it, which definitely won't happen until this weekend. Maybe Friday night after I get home from being out. Aided by alcohol will probably help

[Lyanna Stark]

Dude, cmon Broskis. I'm Jaime freaking Lannister. I boned my own sister. My dad shits gold. No way I'm not all about Casterly Rock and protecting King Tommen to rule the kingdom 4ever!! Man. I'm soooooooooooooo lazyyyyyyyyyy. Freaking A man.

So you've decided to be dead fucking weight, and just go on about your laziness. I don't buy into the crap assumption that people are too lazy to be scum and I happen to know that stick your head in the sand and hope things go away is your scum play.

VOTE: scumhunter

[Lyanna Stark]

Benmage is town

Minimum is most likely not Aegon aligned

Feysal's early attack at Starbuck is meh...(I have to feel that way since I had the same concept as what she expressed.)

Feysal is most likely not Aegon aligned

Pandora is still town

Reddff: Voted Starbuck and chose Feysal in his first post. (Don't know what to make of that...more of a placemarker as I'm re-reading.)

By the old gods...why did we lynch Staeg?

BB's still town too.

Starbuck/Scumhunter is most likely town.

Post 252 makes me a little paranoid of Tyene along with has's commenton Post 264

WHY IS MAGUA LURKING???

Wait...earlier I said Benmage was town...this is multiball. Need to rethink him actually. I don't care how "perfect" his scum game is this is different. Actually looking at Benmage even early game he was trying to steer the choose away from redff as in Post 265. I literally don't know what to make of Benmage, but his bossy arrogance when I reaction voted him says to me he's likely town though so many things say to me that he's scum. Definitely don't want him making it to LyLo regardless.

Unlikely to be Aegon aligned based on Salamance Post 278: Feysal, Minimum, BBMolla

Shinori's probably town by way of Hyperion (Isn't that sad?) Shinori, please pick it up.

One issue I'm having right now is that Sapo kept reiterating their idea that the vote and choose vote should be the same. The only person who kept doing that was MoS. If the Aegon faction is split up, this might mean something as they kept insisting on their town read of bvoigt and then eventually bvoit decided they seemed town. But, Salamance's interactions with MoS doesn't make sense for partners, unless it was encouraging in weird sort of sense.

Minimum is probably town too.

Tyene is probably not Stannis aligned.

This is really just random crap and thoughts until page 18...was gonna try to go longer but *sleep*...pretty much ignore this as it's just here for my thoughts for now.

[Lyanna Stark]

Tammy might be scum because of http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4298801 there were nice wagons on Bvoigt and Salamance at the time.

Yeah in retrospect I should have realized that bvoigt's interaction with me was light buddying or at least an attempt to be different enough with me to affect my read. He spent weeks calling me scum int he game we had just ended when he was scum, and that was my only experience with bvoigt before this game. I have a really hard time reading people in that situation. I drove the people in experimental mafia crazy when I fence sat and waxed wafflelicious over havingfitz after a similar situation.

Thinking about bvoigt though there's something that is bothering me. What do you make of bvoigt's change of read on sala? He was pushing for a Sala lynch, but then Sapo replaces in and started pushing really hard on the idea that bvoigt is town. Bvoigt then changed his read on that slot. Do you think that makes it more likely that Aegon don't know each other?

[Lyanna Stark]

Post 252 makes me a little paranoid of Tyene along with has's commenton Post 264

Explain. Because it makes no sense for you to say these posts make you paranoid when you then say I'm not aligned with the Stannis faction (redFF/DCLXVI).

It's paranoia, don't really know how that can be explained. Saying this post makes me paranoid is different than this post makes me doubt my read. It's just something I need to come back to and deal with.

[Lyanna Stark]

So MoS according to your points system, people are being rewarded with townie points for potential bussing? Like bvoigt spent a good portion of day one voting for his partner Sala, which would make him unlikely to be Aegon aligned according to your system. Like for instance I don't think I should be removed from the possible Stannis faction because I ended up choosing dcl because I could have easily done that as his partner. I should be removed from that because of the way dcl interacted/responded to me.

What do you make of the possibility that Aegon don't know each other?

[Lyanna Stark]

Not really. In one instance, the bvoigt points, I'm looking at your system as it stands and using bvoigt as an example as he's the only known scum we have who voted for his partner.

In the second instance, the Aegon faction maybe not knowing each other, I'm asking for your opinion on the situation as it definitely isn't a certainty. If you do believe it's a possibility, then what impact would that have on your points system?

Do you think that bvoigt's changing attitude to the sala/sapo slot makes it more likely they don't know each other?

Also, when looking at the potential Aegon aligned, look at how sala treats some of the people you suspect. He's only played scum once before and I think he would be too nervous to interact with his partners too much, so think that because he was informed and more likely knew the Aegon faction if others don't, his interactions could definitely be taken into account. So for instance he barely interacted with bvoigt even though he had made a case on him, but kept harping on BB finding him suspicious. I think that makes it less likely that BB is Aegon aligned.

[Lyanna Stark]

MoS - did you read the post in which I voted shadow? I had a scum read on him, but stated that I knew I was going to be moving it soon. I had no idea the wagon was actually going to take off. There's no way with the way I presented it you could think I was trying to start a counter wagon. Pretty sure if I wanted to start a counter wagon, I'd at least make a case I thought would get people to jump on. Sure, on paper and in hindsight it looks like that, but if you go deeper, I'm not sure that you can confidently assign that to me. I moved my choose to minimum because I was starting to doubt my scum read on them but not enough to fully remove my vote.

Why are you just reducing things to numbers? Aren't you the one who said that the problem with the way people scum hunt today is that they don't look at motivations they just look at actions? Why aren't you digging deeper then? You're not even looking at interactions or what people said about scum or what scum said about people.

[Lyanna Stark]

Didn't say you should spend more time MoS, and I certainly don't have that type of time either. Also, if I misquoted you, I didn't mean to, I'm repeating from memory as I can't even remember what game that came from.

As far as digging deepier, I'll totally admit to being self absorbed in this instance because I can totally see why through my votes/chooses someone could see me as Aegon aligned, but if you look deeper you'd have to ask yourself why did I spend day one complaining that I felt I was unable to be impartial where bvoigt was concerned and therefore couldn't get a read if we were partnered. Why did sapo replace in and call me scum immediately and question why bvoigt had a town read on me when they were defending bvoigt so strongly, then move me to ambivalence if we were partnered? Why did I avoid the bvoigt wagon when it was pretty clear he'd be going down that day or the next and would have known his claim was fake by voting for someone with not much reasoning at all? You say that I'm on all the lists, but I'm only on the dcl list because I happened to choose him, but would have also been on the list if I hadn't chose him so your list is pretty artificial and if you would actually have looked at my interaction with dcl. Yes, scum can argue and bus, but look at that interaction then tell me it makes sense for us as partners.

These things you did not do, and I realize my scum game is severely lacking but none of this makes sense from a Tammy scum perspective.

[Lyanna Stark]

I think kortul said you a couple questions...don't remember how far back that as though.

[Lyanna Stark]

On page 19, Mina says that ces is confident in his ability thread benmage.

ces

I'm assuming you have a town read on benmage based on you saying that I should play around benmage?

If plum mamma is scum, they are probably not Aegon aligned.

Did I say earlier that bb was likely town, if not, he is.

The troll buddying thing MoS is doing to Mina is annoying...probably not alignment relevant though. I know what environment I can read MoS to some extent and it hasn't really happened this game yet so I'm without a read completely. Would not object to a lynch of him though because of this absence.

Oh, Post 507 makes me think of feysal as not likely Stannis aligned. This is a type of not sure/frustrated read that I don't expect scum giving...it's similar to what I've been talking about with respect to me ns my inability to read bvoigt. As his partner, he doesn't have a reason to read him this way.

Bvoigt's Post 510 has him saying that th following people are town: benmage, Has/magua, (defending Starbucks in a sense), Hyp/shinori, Pandora. Calls Sala scum.

I'm not reading mjayes posts again. I made a summary somewhere.

Bvoigt in Post 535 defends starbucks some more, claims bb was role fishing and calls me town. Says he hasn't notice edd or minimum.

still uncertain about jal, but think once pine starts posting the reading should be easier.

Okay, so I'm having a weird bit of paranoia about the people calling me town. Now for the people who have played with me, this isn't such an issue in a sense, because ~meta~ but I also don't think I've been all that townie this game. I'm almost half convinced that scum have just said "call er town she's easier to deal with that way" and think that tose who have expressed suspicion of me like jal, BB, and to a lesser extent MoS look better for expressing suspicion of me. Is that weird?

I now want nachos and should probably make dinner soon.

Jal comes put of the snowstorm convo looking pretty bad, but eh, she looks bad in most...

Feeling better about minimum town,

Tyene Post 569 just had me in hysterics over the call me paranoid maybe. Have you heard the rendition of "you're a scumbag, let's lynch you baby" as performed by farastark for scumminamum? If not, ask him to send you the link. It's hilarious. (this has nothing to do with the current game, btw)

Tyene Post 571 you indicate a scum read on MoS...what is your read on him now?

Benmage is town...most likely.

Post 611 slight defense of MoS and Post 611 is his case on sala.

Green knight raises a similar point in Post 619 that I've been feeling about feysal.

Shinori's likely town...any time I doubt this, slap me. It's mostly paranoia based on the fact that he's been scum in every game we have experience with each other so far...however, I'm sticking him in my don't care if it's a mislynch pile like Scumhunter due to th lack of activity and my desire to not want him near lylo ATM.

Townie read on tyene getting stronger, paranoia aside.

Oh have I told you that pandora is town? They are. Oh for magua, in case he actually reads this, cuz he's all metametameta. I think when you've seen a person from all aspects they become easier to read to you. So I've been town when shadowed has been town and scum, and vice versa...and we've been scum in opposing factions before. I've correctly read her as scum when I was town, and misread her when I was town and she was town. I think when there are that many combinations you're able to read people better, which makes me really super confident in my pandora read. (there will be, of course, a scream heard round the world if I'm wrong on this one).

Which makes me wonder magua, if you're all about meta, why haven't you used it in your read on me? Have I convinced you metas not all its cracked up to be! :p

Eh...that's to the bottom of 27...need to plug in my iPad...again notes as reading, I'll compile later.

[Lyanna Stark]

Have I called nearly everyone town? By the old gods my reads are useless this game. I know that I feel good about Pandora, BBMolla, Zdenek and Regfan. I feel decently good about Shinori, Minimum, Benmage, Scumhunter, Tyene...I felt good about Magua, but now that he's been lurking I don't feel good about him anymore and am kicking myself for feeling good about him in the first place. On a gut level I feel okay about Mockingjaye, but on paper they dont look so good. Kortul looks pretty good as well, but there's something holding me back on him...I haven't decided what it is yet.

Everyone that I said is probably not Aegon aligned comes with its own caveat though. If they don't know each other, relational tells won't be present, so it's best to look at what Sala/Sapo said about them.

[Lyanna Stark]

Well if you look at what you just wrote, there isn't anything -bad- about anyone in there. You name 12 people you feel/have felt decent about. How do you feel about the rest?

Can we carpet bomb them and see what's left in the rubble? Because, no really, that's how I feel.

[Lyanna Stark]

WHY IS MAGUA LURKING???

Because I've yet to engage in some emotional back-and-forth that has me F5'ing the page every minute.

I'd start yelling at you if that's what it took but I took a solemn vow to not be so emotional/annoying/crazy this game. Sorry

[Lyanna Stark]

Tammy might not be on my scum-list, but she doesn't get a free pass, and forgetting to scum hunt is something that happens to scum. I noticed that she seemed to have a pile of null or town reads. It's something that want to keep track of.

People with a definite lack of scum reads:
Tammy
Minimum
Tierce
Feysal

I'm hainvg a hard time with scum reads this game that's for sure, it's not about forgetting, it's about having trouble.

I don't think minimum belongs on your list though as they've expressed a scum read on mockinganx and jalpine.

Although I do think it's worth noting that in each of your people without scum reads, it's people who don't tend to make lists so it's more a playstle preference than it is a lack of reads.

[Lyanna Stark]

I don't mean having reads, but making lists. I'm thinking that there are players like regfan who are really transparent and give you updated reads regularly, and there are those who don't.

[Lyanna Stark]

MoI: what is your read on me, shinori, and MoS?

MoS: Gut is nothing. But ok

Gut is everything. Gut is more reliable than cases. I'd trust my gut over my brain ANY day.

And yet you just made a numbers list...now does your gut feel about the people on the lists?

[Lyanna Stark]

If Bvoigt is scum for thinking Sala is scum because he doesn't realize Sala is VI status, I'm scum too.

Eh BB kinda..um...don't know what to say...but paranoia.

[Lyanna Stark]

LoLloLol. Whoever suspects me due to my lol jamie lannister comments is hilarious. Its not like im crafting a crazy claim plan. im being completely forthright because meh im disengaged from the game at this point and the accusation that me claiming to be VT due to not having a sword hand in the series is quite lol. Clearly, my VT role PM mentions nothing of the sort, but yes my claim is serious and I am jamie lannister and am a vt so yea cool. I think the analysis of me as angle shooting with the sword hand thing is at best non attentative to my tone and at worst very obvious scum opportunism. i love beer.

Hey lameass...stop trolling...get a grip...drink another beer? Pretty sure no one suspects you for your lololololol Jaime lannister comments...in fact not sure how many people really suspect you at all. Those of us voting you think you deserve death regardless of your alignment based on your play, so yeah have fun with your "opportunism" accusations.

[Lyanna Stark]

I never played with Feysal before, and not that impressed with his analysis and activity after several initial posts, so would like to hear thoughts from those who know his meta.

I've played one other game with feysal, and he didn't have much input to the game, like,here. He was rather sporadic in his activity, but he was instrumental in lynching scum and in making sure scum was lynched in endgame. His lazor focus on Starbucks is frustrating, but he is a careful player who weighs evidence properly so some of the Starbucks focus is being overlooked, though he really needs to expand reads.

[Lyanna Stark]

Regfan: it's Scumhunter being Scumhunter. I'm not saying that my role PM says he's lying, I'm just saying I don't believe a word out of his mouth. Look at his play so far. Don't know, don't care, I think the slot is town and I really don't want to waste time on it, which means that the wagon on it is rather irritating because it's such a red herring (Lyanna, kortul, this means you).

I'm increasingly convinced MoS is scum. That numbers dance is pretty ridiculous when it comes to justifying his vote. It reads a lot like fake :effort: and fake rails for him to leave should he flip scum (he does love to do that, see GvE with scum-MoS). VCA isn't secret numerology, which is what he's trying to pass it off as. Still, would scum MoS 'test-drive' a plan like this in a game in which he was scum? In multiball, at that, where he could be scumhunting genuinely?
Then again, he does get caught as scum, so I guess I should stop second-guessing myself.

VOTE: Mastermind of Sin

Lyanna, I'd like some input on MoS from you, please.

I'm mulling this over. I'm tired and will get back to this game and question later, probably Wednesday.

[Lyanna Stark]

Dude, cmon Broskis. I'm Jaime freaking Lannister. I boned my own sister. My dad shits gold. No way I'm not all about Casterly Rock and protecting King Tommen to rule the kingdom 4ever!! Man. I'm soooooooooooooo lazyyyyyyyyyy. Freaking A man.

So you've decided to be dead fucking weight, and just go on about your laziness. I don't buy into the crap assumption that people are too lazy to be scum and I happen to know that stick your head in the sand and hope things go away is your scum play.

VOTE: scumhunter

policy vote.

Not just a policy vote. He has a decent enough chance at flipping scum, and is someone I wouldn't care less if didn't and moreover don't want anywhere near LyLo. He's contributed absolutely nothing besides calling MoI a scumlord and saying Regfan's probably scum for LOLsuspecting him. I just finished a game where he contributed extremely little as scum and pulled this lazy crap. He doesn't even have to read the entire thread. Regfan and I have suggested for him a place to start that didn't entail reading a 100 page game and he still refuses cuz lollazy. He could absolutely pull this off as scum. And if town, he's not going to be nightkilled, so if this game goes to LyLo, he'll likely lose it for us anyway. Totally not opposed to his lynch.

------

Tierce - I'll answer your question tomorrow.

------

Not sure what Feysal is talking about. Maybe he prods us differently, but when I got prodded it was just a generic prod.

[Lyanna Stark]

Well it's nice to know I'm not the only person prone to theatrics. I've barely skimmed the past several pages, so I have some catching up to do, but I got some sleep last night so I can work on this after work today some.

I was going to say that I was leading town on MoS, the point thing was weird, but thinking about it I'm not sure why he'd do it as scum. He always does wagon analysis as either alignment, so the only reason why I could imagine the new system as evil is if he were trying to make a partner look good, but that doesn't fit for MoS really. I don't know what to make of his appealing to his new meta though and need to read over the defense of himself he provided.

Also,

unvote

this slot should become productive now and there are people who can read him too. Tyene, I was going to tell you that scumhunters behavior was deliberately harmful to his team in lylo. He can play the game and is smarter than he acted, but it doesn't matter if he'd be able to catch scum in lylo if all he did was troll and complain about laziness, as he's not going to be able to sway the other townie.

Also, for now

vote feysal

. I haven't had a chance to read the case in full or his defense, but I'm willing to give plum this. They were right on bvoigt on day one and there have been aspects of his play that don't sit well.

I've been thinking about staeg and I think that he was probably actually really important. The two masons were freys and shinori himself is supposedly a Frey. That's three already, and there could be more along with any Frey fake claims that have been given out. I'm willing to bet there's scum on that wagon, so it's something I want to take a look at. Still keep coming back to shinori being a Frey and not outing that. People have been writing it off as stupid play, but shinori's not stupid so. With almost half the player base being replacements and others near not contributing at all, this has been a bit frustrating and I feel like I'm overlooking something. Still leaning town on shinori for some of the things he's said though.

[Lyanna Stark]

Kortul what about the fact that I saw tierce doing nothing? I know she could be a scum passive role but chances are more likely to have an active role.

Wait a second, you can only follow people with active roles?

Are investigations active roles? <------ this question is to anyone who knows.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay thank you, I'm still a little confused but I won't bother with that now.

[Lyanna Stark]

While reassessing Feysal i noticed something.

Feysal:

Since you didn't answer it,

who do you want to shoot?

Starbuck.

No question. She is my strongest scum read, and even if she somehow were town, she richly deserves having her head stuck on a pike for doing nothing all day.

5 hours later Saporeint jumped off Feysal choose wagon (in 1204), making Feysal and greenknight wagons equal. Some time later, in 1231, bvoigt asked "You seem to be one of the few people, if not the only person, to suspect Starbuck. What makes shooting her a better idea than shooting someone who you have a weaker scumread on, but also is more of a consensus choice as scum?"

I got a feeling that bvoigt was worried, because he repeated the question soon enough:

@Feysal: Can you respond to my question, please?

Without getting an answer, in 1436 he decided to switch from Feysal to DCL and secure the choose.

This concerted effort to make sure that Feysal won't be choosen once he said that he will shoot Starbuck increased my suspicions on Starbuck of being Aegon aligned scum.

This is definitely something to think about. Regfan can read timeater I believe so hopefully this will be cleared up soon.

[Lyanna Stark]

I think the only right course of action here is to just lynch the slot (and anyone who thinks this isn't a scum tell for Pine is pretty naïve.)

I had a leaning scum read on jal, but this is not a reliable scum tell for pine though I will say its odd he replaced in if he wasn't going to have time, and that shoot I forgot to bookmark is a pretty reliable scum tell anyway, but replacing out isn't a scum tell. I've been in three games where pine replaced out and two were town where one was scum.

[Lyanna Stark]

First I try to put some effort into this game with what little time I have (there's a reason I'm only in one game right now), and immediately you come after me for not putting MORE effort into the game. And then I have to spend the rest of my time explaining to your fucking retarded brain why I'm not doing MORE to scumhunt, when YOU are the exact reason I don't have time to do MORE. So seriously, fuck off and get off your goddamn high horse.

I'm done with you and your bitch ass.

Mod: Replace me

MoS pulled this spazz (albeit over something differrent, I think) and replace out move as scum in Consulmaker III. That game was lost to the crash, but there's some over lap between that game and this one, so someone might be able to remember it better than me.

Was that the game where he replaced out after fighting with grey ice? He mentioned that one in GvE. I was taking the replace out from the fight as a bit of a town tell, actually.

[Lyanna Stark]

Sheep me!

No don't. My reads suck this game.

Feysal is looking to be the lynch as pushed by plums yo mama (who has been godhanded and we will learn the alignment of tomorrow at end of day).

Feysal is pushing Starbuck (who became Scumhunter but is now timeater)

Also up is mockinjaye (who is now anxiety)

Who did you replace? If pine then a couple of people are pushing you.

[Lyanna Stark]

Meh, I'm ambivalent on all of them. None of them are on my town reads or feeling relatively good about reads, so I'm meh and would lynch any of these.

Starbuck/Scumhunter/wagon has some good points against it and I was originally on that for scumhunters lolplay. But timeater is here now so hopefully that slot will become readable soon.

Feysal is mainly being pushed hard by plum mamma and has some really good points, though some do add up to playstle. However his play doesn't sit very well. Plum was right on day one and I didn't listen so I'm inclined to listen now in absence of decent reads myself.

Mockinjaye/anxiety is the one I like the least. They fit on paper with both teams really well, but there's something on a gut level that doesn't feel right for them bing scum. That and anxiety's play doesn't seem like scum to me, but regfan thinks its still scummy.

Yep, those are my useless reads...the only less useless people you'll find this game are those who are lurking and barely contributing.

[Lyanna Stark]

I can help with that.

VOTE: timeater

Part of the reason it's difficult to place the timeater slot is because day one Starbuck made a suggestion and lurked away most of the resulting pressure before replacing out. Scumhunter replaced, read only his predecessors iso and nothing else and spent the next two game days essentially going "MoI's a scumlord, regfan is scum for expecting me to contribute, I'm soooooo lazy" and then never came back.

Still might go back to the feysal wagon if necessary, but we've got three days and no reason to hammer right now.

[Lyanna Stark]

The main reason I find you scummy is, ime, you are much more objective with your reads as town. Here it feels like you are much more concerned with portraying someone's actions as scummy rather than looking at the motivations behind them.

Where do you see this specifically?

Sorries.

[Lyanna Stark]

This current argument is stupid. The only thing that makes sense is that Thor is reaction testing of some sort.

Zedenek's town, and it makes no scum sense for him to analyze the defense of a player whose wagon he was already on. He, as scum, didn't even need to be as thorough as he was. He could have just responded that feysal didn't fit his town meta like a lot of us have already talked about and called it a day. In fact several of us played together in GvE with feysal and have used that as a context for his meta. He's not even the main one pushing this wagon. I don't see how scum!zdenek would talk about how his scum meta is different but come to the conclusion that it ultimately can't be used in his defense in hie eyes. Scum use meta to exploit people and would be less likely to talk about the differences no matter what the conclusion is.

Also, calling feysal obvtownn from that is silly. Maybe if this weren't multiball you could make that assertion but not here.

Tim - you don't have to read the whole game, but feysal is the main wagon being pushed by plums yo mama, a new set of eyes on that might be nice. Also in feysal you'll see the main case against your slot.

[Lyanna Stark]

preeeettttyyyy sure that's not all I said, but sure.

[Lyanna Stark]

I don't do lists silly and my reads are absolute shit this game.

I have people I feel really good about (Regfan, Pandora, BBMolla, Zdenek) then people I feel relatively good about to varying degrees (Magua, Minimum, Tyene, Plum and Benmage).

Mockingjaye who is now Anxiety has some good points against them but on a gut level doesn't feel right for scum (Regfan disagrees, he's one of his top scum reads.)

I had a slight leaning scum read on Jal who became Pine but is now Thor - reserving judgment to see where he's going with this little escapade.

MoS who is now Avox replaced out under eh circumstances, he's kind of a null right now so we'll see what Avox brings.

You, I'm not sure about. I was leaning town at first on your first predecessor before she started lurking out pressure, then scumhunter replaced in and started acting similar to how he did in the game we just finished when he was scum, so start town telling? You seem kinda townish right now though.

Feysal has some really good points against him, and much of his play doesn't sit well, so it's the lynch I'll be joining again when I leave your wagon, unless someone makes a really good case.

Sure I'm missing someone and that's loads unhelpful because my reads suck.

[Lyanna Stark]

Sure I'm missing someone and that's loads unhelpful because my reads suck.

This is like the fourth time I've read this from you and I've been in the game...two days? One and a half?

Why shouldn't we be lynching you after Zdenek? Is this a Mina alt? Because that's the only thing that springs to mind, and

Silly rabbit. This is stupid.

1. We're not lynching Zdnenek, he's town.
2. We're not lynching me after, I'm town.

You'll have to try to get through all the people who have townreads on us both to get to the lynching part. Coming in on day 4 and trying to bully isn't going to get that *shrug*. But, you are better than this, even as scum I know you're better than this. You played loads better when you replaced into Experimental. You're ridiculous if you think scum talk about how their reads suck, or if I would as scum. I'd totally have some scum reads, especially to avoid your type of tripe, coming up with fake reasons why people are scum is easy and easier in multiball.

And, no I'm not a Mina alt, I'm a Tammy alt. Minimum is part Mina. And, I'm not screaming, because why would I? And I took a solemn oath to not scream this game.

[Lyanna Stark]

In the second post you appear to have decided that Feysal is obv. town because I've been pushing his lynch.

Actually I did it from your reaction to his meta, but, yes, my belief of your alignment colored my belief of his and vice versa. It's very Catch-22

This is dumb. You're a better player than this. (Especially considering this is multiball)

1. We're not lynching Zdnenek, he's town.
2. We're not lynching me after, I'm town.

1. Why is he town?
2. Hurm.

1. Read his iso.
2. Hurm...read my iso.

You'll have to try to get through all the people who have townreads on us both to get to the lynching part. Coming in on day 4 and trying to bully isn't going to get that *shrug*. But, you are better than this, even as scum I know you're better than this. You played loads better when you replaced into Experimental.

Yes...and?

And, you're lacking here.

You're ridiculous if you think scum talk about how their reads suck, or if I would as scum. I'd totally have some scum reads, especially to avoid your type of tripe, coming up with fake reasons why people are scum is easy and easier in multiball.[

Ah, so it's silly to think of it as a scumtell...so it's a town tell?
That's at least as silly as my stance, maybe sillier considering.
The scumvandtage would be avoiding taking stances, also known as fencesitting - which is widely accepted as a decent play for scum to make, especially if they can make it look less scummy by coming at it sideways to fool people. So, yeah, I think it's a fair call to make - why am I wrong?[/quote]

No this is silly. Making up reasons why people are scum is easy. Just because someone is having a bad game at reading people as scum doesn't mean that they are scum. Read my iso, if you're town and are interested in real reads, then come back and we'll talk.

p-edit: Didn't say you were playing differently but nice way to change what I said. I said I know you can play better, even as scum. You can look up and read the original...it's not that far away.

Tags fixed