The Wire, Season 1 - Final Credits!

[BT]

Early Shadoweh attack on Benmage is illogical and the response to Cerulean later is excessively moody. Scummers. Her other posts don't do much to change that impression -- mostly tunneling on Benmage when some of the stuff she's calling him out for can be applied to others easily. Cerulean is town (but I guess that's obvious).

Commenting that SAD and Cerulean are townie is a waste of time here, more talk about people that can actually be scum.

hang on, what? when is it ever a waste of time to comment on townreads?

Actually that read fairly townish from Shadow.... Cerul does ready pretty obvious town, and I wager my best town read thus far (although that's just from my shitty reading at work).

The point Shadow was making is we don't need everyone putting in the facade of 'reading' people by naming Cerulean town.

Why did you feel the need to explain this?

Don't like Jason #122; SAD has some stuff outside of RP to look at at that point yet the focus is still on "omg stop your scum-motivated rp" -- you figure he would look at SAD to see if his other stuff (his *content*! oh man) line up with his suspicions but he doesn't do that. Instead he calls out SD for bussing when it's really not warranted. Saying SD's SAD vote was weak when his own wasn't so hot is also a thing.

Someone who knows Absta should give me their opinion on #134. It's either scum being stupid nitpicky or town being stupid nitpicky and it sounds like an easy-to-read post with meta. (the bubbles comment seemed non-serious , hence nitpicky conspiracy theoreist mode)

Leaning town on TGAH. Wasn't sure until #145.

First impression from camn #147 is scum but eh, we'll see.

TGAH's Nost vote was in the right but I didn't feel like Nost was scum -- #149 confirms the town lean. His response to TGAH is good and asking Librarian why they don't like TGAH seals the deal.

Actually wait hold on fuck

no, it sounds like he really doesn't want anyone to become a universal townread. you know who doesn't like a lot of universal townreads running around? scum. if everyone thinks cerulean is town then everyone should say they think cerulean is town.

"bcos no universal townreads" is bordering on bullshit. Safe to assume she (not he) said that just so it'd look like she cares for efficient scumhunting or whatever the heck, but reaching this conclusion instead is bleh. Thinking about it more it's probably just the other head, in which case the #145 head may just be a better player and they're actually scum but it's too early to say. (if they're scum then Shadoweh probably isn't a buddy) In any case trash that town lean.

Agree with CDB on page 7 (about Nost, already stated, and McStab) but he might as well just be defending townies as scum here (townhunting as scum EZ) because his own vote on SD (reason: he had a safe vote) is a safe vote.

Want DV to answer why he believed McStab was more confident in the Nost vote than he should have been. It didn't seem unreasonable to me.
(I don't find this line of thought on DV's part unreasonable either, unlike the other folks on page 8)

Bleh, camn might not be scum, but I would like some other opinions from her.

Calling someone dumb only works if you can actually use correct grammar, punctuation and spelling and not with the result that you make yourself look dumb in the process.

Entirely anti-town post. More scum points for you.

Now on the fence about TGAH - Shadoweh. #210 originally made me go "welp, it was just a bad start, guess she's town" but really the Librarian vote is weak and she doesn't do much else but agree to some townreads / the Jason scumread (I think?). *cowbell* for now because Librarian IS bad, #197 does a bunch of things like claim camn's obsession with SAD is scummy (why?) and delay his vote change (why?). Though yeah, mostly reading as 'bad' right now, not necessarily 'lurker extraordinaire'.

(If you think we're confusing, you should have seen Dayne and me as a hydra)

(please no)

camn seriously needs to comment on people not named Pless.

Currently somewhere around page 11 and all out of fuel.

UNVOTE: Jason
VOTE: Jason
(for people to notice, even though Vifam has apparently already voted Jason. haven't reached that part yet)

[BT]

Don't want to lynch Pless or SD. Former reads calm & genuine while latter reads like newbtown (newb + his "pls stop it SAD" sounds genuine). Pless read is weak but SD is actually pretty solid, people should back off of that wagon.

Librarian #390 gets a mention for commenting on the big wagons while still sticking to a vote that no one is interested in.

safetydance is showing an almost singular focus on defending his badvote where absta at least has some opinions and stuff (not good opinions, but still). also, absta actually bothers calling people scum while safetydance is still crying "antitown"

Former is a newbtell, not a scumtell.

Trash that McStab town lean in response to his completely forgetting about Nost after people calling Nost town + the SD wagon. (just ctrl+f nost @ his iso) Would lynch this or Librarian after Jason but they're comparatively weak reads.

Shadoweh is still pretty bad. Cerulean, you said you found something about her meta, right?

I am not convinced on Jasonscum. It certainly could be that he is fooling me, but I generally feel confident on my gut reads of Jason.
In re: my so-called "obsession"..... if that's gonna keep getting mentioned, I would like someone to point out where it actually happened. I am officially telling you that it was just a question, and one I would want answered any time someone displays a weird post-style. But to spin it as "obsession "...... It does occur to me to wonder why anyone would spin it that way So cite, please. Or retract.

IIRC I said that in my wallpost because I was directly quoting a dude for effect, not because that's what I thought (though I still think your scope is really small -_-).

I'm gonna give SAD's activity + Jason push a townpass for now. Not getting a read on him otherwise, might be because of the RP. (then again I had similar problems in mafiastuck so maybe not)

Ps- based on recent posts, I think Plezz and McStab are scum together.

Why is pless scum and why are they together?

SAD do you think that people townreading you are just naive or possibly scum who are faking reads

This is a question from town.

for real though why are people ignoring safetydance

bs noise post. SD was the second largest waggon at that point (unless i'm blind).

??? Inconsistency 'brb pointing all kinds of stuff without thinking about it" scummers is a go.

Not a fan of Sotty's reads so I don't know how much I'm willing to trust his unwavering Jason gutread. Can you actually point to specific parts of his posts that make you think town?

[BT]

Since I know you and Shadoweh play off-site, what's your impression of her meta and what exactly do you feel is off about her here?

We're pretty fucking horrible at reading each other but at first I felt like she was a little too "in your face" in #97 among other posts (abusing meta?). Her content is also visibly lacking even though her D1 in a recent game was just as shallow so that's giving me doubts now. I see she replied to this later, so, uh, the "bad" part was in reference to your play.

Why is pless scum and why are they together?

Please, PLEASE read the thread before you ask questions like this.
I dont have anything to elaborate on my reasons for thinking Pless is scum..and I think I have actually been quite clear for a Day-1 case in a large.
As far as the connection? Read the thread and we can talk about it.

You've been "clear" about it by summarizing one of their wallposts with a bunch of words without delving into anything. Which is why I want you to go over your case in other words.

this is scummy.

SD is actually pretty solid, people should back off of that wagon.

Vifam was scummy in general, and so is his replacement. Also note the hypocrisy of asking me 'why' while delivering absolutely nothing in the way of 'why'.

Hypocrisy x3

It wasn't hypocrisy because I DID explain that SD read. It's the first part of that line you quoted.

I think you're mostly being stubborn here. It'd be nice if you could comply to the above request so I can get a better read on you.

THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT.
just spill it.
Its like if I said:
"Whoa.. I just had a crazy thought about Jason.... Im going to run it by my mother to see if it is logically viable right quick. Be back in a week."
Not useful to the game.
Either spill it.. or shut up about it and just tell us when after you have two-head-approval. Hydra self-reference is

not useful

.. and although I have townread on YOUR SLOT, I am starting to think it is a scumtell in general.

You're being stubborn about this, too. It's not a scumtell, town and scum hydras do this all the time. Sure, it's unhelpful, but commenting on every occurence is even more unhelpful.

I feel like this is going to be a big post if I don't split it so, uh, stay tuned.

(By the way most of the "wallposts" itg could be split up to a bunch of other posts and it'd be similar to the spam in mafiastuck. Tammy's the only one talking in walls, everything else is a bunch of one-liners and is perfectly readable.)

[BT]

(I know, "ragh, READ THE THREAD", but ... isn't it easier to just answer a plain question than it is to make a huge fuss about having already answered it - and refuse to give any link or post number to reference where that answer was? Why make this so difficult?)

Seriously camn you can not be thinking this is scum. Unless you're scum but ehhhh probably not.

Hydra self-reference isn't a scum-tell. It's

clearly

not. Hydras make references to their multiple heads all the time, as both alignments. If you find hydras annoying or whatever, good for you -- but you signed up for a game which multiple hydras had pre-\inned for. You could have guessed that those hydras would behave as most hydras do and make reference to each head individually like this. Given that, it's a bit tedious that you feel the urge to keep shouting about this topic. Nobody's forcing you to play with hydras, and hydras aren't going to change the way they play simply because you insist it's a scum-tell.

Seriously camn. (^5)

My God.

I'm beginning to convince myself that you're intentionally being dense. That & this:

Day 1, Votecount 19

McStab (2) - Plessiezarus, camn

You probably are scum. And if you're not I'd be happy if you could prove me wrong by listening to 2 of my 3 posts so far telling me to look around. Because holy shit.

[BT]

EBWOP: telling you to look around

[BT]

@BT: I didn't forget about Nost, but SafetyDance is an acceptable lynch to me and that wagon has legs. When Nost was sitting at three and SD at 5, I decided to go for the more viable wagon. I'm more down for a Nostredeus wagon than SafetyDance even, but getting the exact lynch I want in a game of 19 players is unrealistic and counterproductive. I'll be the most enthusiastic for a Nost wagon out of anyone should his wagon become viable again.

That's all nice and dandy, but you didn't say anything when you switched (nor did you say anything until I asked) and you're not saying anything about Nost's recent play which everyone seems to think is town.

This is a cool wagon. I might switch if Jason doesn't work out.

[BT]

So if anyone thinks they have a good reason for SafetyDance being town, I'd like to hear it.

He seemed legitimately ticked off by the RP & the wagon on him.

BT: Why hasn't sotty's confidence in Jason town affected your read of him?

Because he's mostly alone on that front. If there was a strongly-reading town player telling me that, or a consensus, then yeah, sure. Nothing like that is happening (the opposite, in fact) and I even said I don't like the rest of his reads so that certainly doesn't help.

[BT]

He seemed legitimately ticked off by the RP & the wagon on him.

how does this relate to his alignment in this game

That's... a good question. <_< I got the impression his "gonna criticize my wagon" response was genuine, though, and that IS related to his alignment.

Librarian #390 gets a mention for commenting on the big wagons while still sticking to a vote that no one is interested in.

Could you please explain why this post of mine is scummy?

I just did?

I'm not -that- bad at reading you BT, for example it looks scummy when your posts are nothing but a bunch of quote strips.. oh wait. BT, after the rant about camn being scum and commenting that she jumped onto McStab right after Plessie, don't you think its hypocritical that your very next post is checking out the McStab wagon?

You're pretty bad at reading me if you think the occasional quote strips aren't part of my meta nowadays! And yeah, it's not hypocritical. Consider that she was on a wagon with one other slot, and then she went on to spar with that slot without seeming to take note of that fact once. Unlikely to come from town.

Do you think SOtty is more likely White Knighting or defending a scum buddy? It seems odd that scum would go out of their way to call as you said a census read, town.

I'm still not sure about it. If they're town then it's hard to argue with their recent reply, and then you have Jason saying they'd have bussed him as scumbuddies if the case were scum-scum. And I'm not reading the hydra as town or anything so who knows. Their recent post isn't so hot overall (overreactionary at times & there's the whole "cmon lets get tgah and sd" comment near the end) and there's also the fact they think Cerulean might be scum.

Nah, I'm still going to give this the benefit of the doubt for now.

UNVOTE: Jason
VOTE: McStab

I actually want to give camn a pass despite what I said earleir too. She's been tonally town in her recent posts and her continuous talk about theory would be pretty awkward. So misguided town is gonna outshine scum for now. (I'm pretty sure you STILL haven't talked about other suspects like I wanted you to)

... Reading Cerulean's post almost made me go straight back to the Jason vote. What's your answer to the question Benmage asked me? Do you think both Jason and Sottyhydra are scum?

Aaaaah fuck it I'm not switching votes. TGAH's point about the flip being helpful is tempting.

Or really I could go both ways right now.

[BT]

Uh, I had a reply to McStab's post written up but I guess I lost that somewhere while making that post.

[BT]

Found it:

Alright time to plow through the shit arguments out there. Can someone, perhaps

BT (I find his posts to be the most eloquent of my detractors)

please outline, in bullet point form, the points against me?


Jason is town. Absta is town (I know his townmeta pretty well and this is townabsta). SAD is town.

BT is town

. Peta is town.

Shadoweh is town

.


I think Nostredeus is most likely scum, SafetyDance and Plezzie are next behind him.

Guarantee 100% scum are on my wagon.

BT isn't one of them

, and I doubt that both DV and Camn are (although I wouldn't be surprised if one is - they both are giving me a weird vibe, but I think that partially stems just from an all around difficulty of mine to read them).

Also funny how many people are setting themselves up to switch votes onto me and thinking they're ohhhhh so clever at how reasonable they're looking *glares at Shadoweh, BT*

I'm still trying to comprehend how that last line came from the same post.

As for your request, I don't know about others's reasons, but my current reasons now are here and, uh, this post.

[BT]

Let me rephrase, why is that particular action of mine scummy in your eyes. I don't see how in a vacuum that particular action can be seen as scummy, nor can I see how in this particular situation that can be seen as scummy.

Because you were clearly showing interest in the big wagons but your vote didn't reflect that -- it was wasted on Absta instead. Why didn't you commit to one of the wagons at #390?

[BT]

Uh, yeah, my activity here stagnated a bit but I'll get right on it.

Dan, why's Shadoweh super obvious town? I'll go with it if you insist but still curious.

[BT]

Pless, the tiny bit about my comments on SAD isn't really a contradiction.

I

didn't get a clear read from his content, but for someone [Jason] who thinks he's scum hiding behind RP you have to wonder why he didn't seem to be interested in his actual content. To try and convince people and such.

[BT]

Dan leans scum, yeah

[BT]

I exist.

Cerulean from X pages ago: I don't recall a recent Scum!ActionDan game but I'm gutting him as scum. He's usually blunt about everything but the way he did it here reeks. Can't say much more unfortunately despite "I didn't like petapan either" (I didn't mention it anywhere before but it was a very slight scum lean).

Though I think I'd rather have Jason - Dan wagons than TGAH - Dan wagons. I honestly haven't read TGAH much lately but I feel like Jason is a much better flip.

cut um uhhh

Claim everything about it then?

[BT]

EBWOP: can't say much more unfortunately besides "..." ..."

[BT]

Prod received. Is a Jason wagon still a thing?

I'll read tomorrow when it isn't past midnight.

[BT]

I'm probably not going to read ~15 pages now and definitely not when a hammer can happen anytime

Can someone sum up the main points against TGAH? And can the people that were on the Jason wagon tell me why that isn't happening anymore?

[BT]

Are you saying this lynch is mainly role spec

[BT]

It's a new day, and what would be the fun without completely 180ing on a stance?

Sorry, you don't get to do this after being questioned about your meta read multiple times on D1 and not cracking a tiny bit. What caused the 180?

I'm going to gutjerk away from Jason because of this, because of TGAH interactions (mostly this which looks like a nitpicky scum-on-town case) and because his later-D1 posts I feel slightly okay about.

Notes to self:

Read Dan
Read CDB
Read Sotty
Read dead-Shadoweh

I agree with much of what has been said about Dan and I had ye olde gut read on him but gonna read first.

[BT]

Prod dodge. <_<

[BT]

Reading. In the meantime, CDB, what in my #1095 made you think scum?

[BT]

Fair enough, though I name whoever I'm looking at so people know what I think at that exact moment. For instance I'm curious about DV now because his only meaningful mention of Absta during D1 was this waffle, though actually he has some similar waffles in the same post so uh. If I recall correctly he managed to get some solid reads during D1 and I guess this one stayed misty so it's worth a note.

[BT]

Don't like Sotty's Nost vote at a glance (haven't read their other posts for background but the post as a post is no) mostly because it's on Nost and their reasons are kind of nitpicky. Would you consider this your strongest choice for a vote right now? What do you think of people universally reading his D1 as town?

CDB, do you think DV's Absta waffle is circumstantial then? That didn't look like a reply to my post but whatever.

[BT]

@Sotty I don't feel like searching the thread for other people's reasons right now seeing as I have like 15 pages to read without it but I think my own town read started at this post. IIRC there was a wagon on him and his response to it was reasonable+.

[BT]

It's ~*~a comment~*~. Without it DV would have completely skipped theoretical scumbuddy absta D1 when he had slight wagon potential and it came with a bunch of other waffles to make it blend in (yeah actually I don't like that part at all). Though I'm saying this right now without properly reading his newer posts so whatever. As I said, a note.

[BT]

By the way I see some really bad PoE on TML's part ("uhh automatic scumreads are a go"). These are the instances where you want to reconsider some of those reads / question if you gave out townclears too easily and I don't see you doing that. (Not scummy, just a complaint.)

[BT]

Quick replies:

Cerulean on Nost: Yeah, I know, but I think the rest of his play is fine too. With Sanjay in Mafiastuck you had any other aspect of his play which reeked of scum and the whole reasonable shtick was a consensus thing that delayed his lynch for a while.

TML, the point is that you're meant to do it on your own accord anyway. I'm not going to do your work for you.

[BT]

Heyo caught up finally

I'm in pretty solid agreement with the CDB suspicion but I want peta/dan/kuribo or sotty lynched more.

VOTE: kuribo

And as I read I'm seeing alot of people seeing petapan as scum.

Seriously? peta? the guy's a fucking troll. He probably masturbates while he thinks of new ways to fuck with people.

Opportunism at its worst among the peta-haters, and I gotta figure out which ones are legitimately stupid and which ones were just trying to figure out the best mislynch.

Ugh this is really shitty. If you're going to call X people out for considering Y scum because Y is Y (which is unhelpful enough) the LEAST you could have done was name examples instead of that last line which you never got back to. If you're town you know they're opportunistic yes but then I'd have expected you to put effort into weeding out the scum that pushed your wagon instead of this global shitflinging.

Overall his macho doesn't seem town-fueled (the 1v1 with BENMAGE is also dumb and makes me want to just be rid of him).

*VC*

lol dan wagon picked up steam just as Hero-scum was going down in flames

There's this too. This really means nothing (crap logic as is) and leaving it like that without possibly elaborating and making sense smells like scumposting with ~*~votecounts~*~ being nice and convincing when it shouldn't be.

Actually he says he mixed up absta and TGAH later on so

next

also, if you believe dan's scum, you'd have to believe he seriously wouldn't realize his role wasn't a counter-claim to Zdenek's

that's a pretty stupid gambit to pull, even for dan

Same crap logic. Scum!Dan was just as likely to misinterpret the claim as Town!Dan was. If anything his initial hesitation in the post where he claimed fits scum wondering why a town neiborizer exists.

I actually feel really retarded and waffle-ish right now because I otherwise agree with his SAD clear + Sotty suspicion (the general sotty suspicion at that, along with my disliking their recent nost vote) and it's why I want one of these two lynched as things stand. I'm tempted to vote sotty instead but <_< I feel like the things itp point strongly to kuribo scum (and the agreement is an agreement is an agreement) whereas sotty is in the realm of possible lametown. So that's just how it is.

If you think we're scum with TGAH after the way day 1 played out, I really don't know what to tell you.

Um...Traitor? (jus sayin)

Go read his final post after being lynched. He went out of his way to mention us being a possible SK. That would just be an odd thing to say about someone you would theoretically know is on your scumteam.

(I think he posted that because he wanted the town to consider us a serial killer suspect to salvage any value in our lynchability, but of course I have the benefit of knowing my alignment.)

Ehh screw that, I hate this too, this is false. In fact I'm inclined to believe last minute random remarks are a lot more incriminating than most things ("oh man this is really unlikely for a buddy!") and "guys he might be sk" is definitely random.

I'll come back to this tomorrow?

~~~

@SottyRulez - who was more behind the TGAH scum push on your side at the start, Zach or Sotty? or were you both in agreement from the start he was scum, or did one have to persuade the other?

At the start of the day, Sotty was heavily suspicious of TGAH, and I was more interested in Safetydance. Later on I came on board because of Rolf's lack of presence in the game because he has a scum meta that is very similar to my own so I became convinced later on in the day that TGAH was scum. From that point on, we both wanted him dead.

This solidifies my town read on you, Town Zach changes his mind on people, scum zach busses from the get go

... but he was a traitor? <_<

I showed rofl the light in regards to Jason. rofl and I had opposite reactions to Jason’s gambit, this was due to his lack of flavor knowledge, while I am from Maryland and not watching The Wire is a sin punishable by death. I eventually convinced him that Jason’s gambit was a crock of shit. After that, I eventually got him to agree that Jason was the best vote

I have no idea what to make of this, but maybe konowa decided it was best to attack one of his masters so they'd look good if he ever gets lynched and rofl was just attempting to protect jason regularly and then konowa convinced him of the plan.

I don't know about this, I'm reading it as the opposite actually. It fits more an announcement of a read they're not too worried about (a townie) and again you have to consider their case on Jason that I already said looked nitpicky.

[BT]

@BT: Have we played together? I keep thinking we've played together.

Gay II but I don't think we talked, like, at all, so that explains that

[BT]

Tammy and I are still talking about things re: kuribo and his predecessors, the main thing that makes me think he might be town is the nature of Dan's claim (e.g., the way he came out thinking he was cc'ing Zdenek which seemed pretty genuine and unlikely to come from scum).

I'm not seeing it. It's genuine but it could come from both town and scum so I don't see what's pointing you to the latter.

General question: I see a good chunk of people townreading Sottyhydra. Why?

[BT]

You say it's genuine, so you believe he was genuinely thinking he was counter claiming zdenek? Why would Dan!scum genuinely think he was counter claiming someone he knew to be town?

Nah, but if that's what you meant by genuine, then I disagree. I meant that it was obvious he thought his claim really clashed with Zdenek, regardless of alignment. I see nothing towntelling there.

Explanation behind Sottyrulez!town is nice, though. I'll go with that for now.

[BT]

Dan probably did the slot more harm than peta when you look at wagons, and either way I don't see the point in blaming past slot-users repeatedly like this. I take it you're mad that people are voting you mostly because of ~*~the slot~*~? So... what do you make of that? Are they in the wrong? Are they scum? It kind of goes nowhere like what I pointed out earlier. You said you didn't like my post but that's it and the whole 1v1 thing stopped. It doesn't look like you're really trying to figure out if the people voting you For The Wrong Reasons Aka Petapan And Friends are scum or just wrong and instead you're just... pointing it out again and again.

[BT]

Cerulean you've still yet to tell me why Dan's CC is towntelling to you.

BT's 1350 says that the thread points pretty strongly to kuribo-scum, but all he really says is "his macho doesn't seem town-fueled". You don't get to go all "ew 1v1 lynch" and then talk about how you just can't decide between Kuribo and Sotty, because Kuribo is

actually

really scummy.

DV, I think it was mostly a gut read on Sotty that made me weigh them against the kuribo vote. I'm actually kind of reconsidering what Cerulean said about them being all over the place (I think Ben said this too?) because one of the reasons I wanted to look at them was because I remembered nothing of their D1 but that one gutread that they decided to burn. Actually there was also that one "I hate all of the other hydras" post that I disliked similarly to how I now dislike the Nost case.
I actually kind of don't get what point you want to make with that paragraph. Am I setting up a Sotty switch? Is my thinking process flawed? The first sentence feels disconnected from the second, really, like you're just saying stuff for the sake of it.

CDB- Weaker town. I agree that ignoring Absta is slightly incriminating and he's not that town, but ...

Huh

How do you feel about me accusing you of ignoring Absta in light of this?

I also think the way he said that he thought I was town in the QT after he decided to replace out is something that

scum probably wouldn't think to do

. Like, how does it benefit them.

Kuribo maybe seems kind of town from his posts, but I'm not so sure on that one

.

Also this. Are you reading your own posts? Conspiracy Theorist Self says you're one of those scum players that write up their conclusions in advance and posts random stuff along with it.

RE: Zar's slip

Assuming you've taken math lessons:

absta + X + X + Traitor = 4. A four player scum-team PLUS a traitor would be OP in a 19 player game IMO.

kuribo: still don't think the absta kill makes sense from a SK's POV. Not that it isn't implausible, but just it seems subpar.

~Zar.

Uhhhh

Well, we're both confident on Jason being town at this point. We don't have a town read on any of the other three. But I don't think we're

that

good to have pinned the scumteam with the other three, so idk at least one should be scummy town? :shrug:

This means you think you might have caught the REMAINING

THREE

scum in that list.

Starting to dumb my townreads. <_< What a blast. Kind of makes me want to swing the lynch on Sotty and see what happens. Would anyone be up for that? Or we could lynch DV -- I really got an apetite for that now.

In general in light of the stronger urges I get from lynching other people + townreads on CDB faltering + CDB's #1452 (mainly the last part which is identical to my own reason for sticking to jason @ D1) I'm thinking this wagon shouldn't happen now.

the "set up spec" is part of the scumhunting, captain literacy

Just saying I think scumreads would do the job a tad better than what you're doing now.

And ugh at Sotty still sticking to the oddball wagons. This Kise vote seems kind of opportunistic to me. "I've been wanting to get back to BabySpice" rubs me the wrong way too.

[BT]

ebwop: "starting to doubt my townreads", though I guess that works too

my grammar is top notch today I can tell

[BT]

I still want to know who your reads are, can you sum them up for me?

[BT]

@Kuribo: No, you're right. It's not that I was acting like you don't have reads, though; I guess after the setup thing I literally forgot that you posted them.

For the record I also have no problem with your recent posts, so there's that too.

And ugh at Sotty still sticking to the oddball wagons. This Kise vote seems kind of opportunistic to me. "I've been wanting to get back to BabySpice" rubs me the wrong way too.

Are you saying only the major wagons are worth looking at for scum? The "oddball wagons" as you put it happen to be where I think the scum are actually likely to be.

If Nost and Kise had 5 votes instead of Kuribo and CDB, would you happen to be more interested in them? If the answer is yes, you might want to rethink your scumhunting methods.

Also, I would suggest having another look at the day 1 wagons. TGAH qualified as an "oddball wagon" for most of day 1 as well.

Not what I meant.

Sticking

to them implies I think you're not looking at the main wagons, more than what is normal.

PEdit: It

is

a viable wagon because people have been mostly null reading the slot. Probably the easiest wagon to form now compared to others because some people actually seem to be against them (nost, sotty, sad etcetera).

[BT]

If I'm commenting on the Kise thing I may as well note that I don't have a concrete read of the slot, though I do recall BabySpice being awkward and making me lean weak scum.

[BT]

Uhh, quick things

Zar, you're kind of ignoring the fact that you slipped. Or hell if I know, but you're still ignoring whatever it was. Your post implied that you thought there were 3 remaining scum but you corrected yourself later. What's up with that?

Cerulean despite what you may think I still really want you to answer my question about Dan's CC. ~____~

CDB, I dropped camn because she wasn't worth pursuing after the flip (like what pretty much everyone agreed on -_-). You're right about the absta connection (although in that one post you linked (with the meta) I really was trying to get someone else's opinion because I couldn't manage to get a read on him alone) but I'm finding it hard to see how this gave you such a big confidence boost about me!scum, considering "I was going to do *stuff* but damn". I explained what made you feel off about me too so...? This is mainly bugging me because all you have supporting your overconfidence in this vote is connections and a gut feeling without considering anything else.

I see some other replies but I'll get to that later.

[BT]

Actually, CDB, you said I was ganging up on camn with absta, right? But that's kind of generalizing it, since it wasn't always like that. Check the progression of my camn read over the course of D1 and get back to me if you think it doesn't make sense.

Jason when you finish catching up can you tell me if you still gut sotty as scum? Because I'm tempted to vote them here and now.

[BT]

ebwop: still gut sotty as town

[BT]

My comment regarding really wanting to switch to sottyrulez stems from

Your post moved BT above nost on my suspicion list actually. I found the complete lack of acknowledgement of any kind of changed read on camn very interesting.

Which not only sucks as a reason alone but is weird when they actually seemed solid about the nost vote?

[BT]

See, the difference is that I actually have some solid reasons for thinking you're scum

You on me, not so much

[BT]

It sucks because you're acting like it's a convincing reason for thinking I'm scum when in reality it's really iffy. It's not like it was a very important + relevant read change for me to note at the time (also seeing as it was consensus) so is it that shocking that I didn't?

RE: The second part. Why hasn't she mentioned that before?

[BT]

It'd be cool if people said they agree with me if they do because so far I'm still assuming sotty won't be lynched today

[BT]

Except that when you don't bother to even acknowledge that the flips dictate that it should change your approach, it starts to look more like you're trying to distance from your previous stance.

I'd be trying to distance from my previous stance by... not mentioning it at all? I don't follow.

[BT]

Like if the read was important for scum!me I'd probably have mentioned it

[BT]

It would have been way easier to say "I agree, the flip dictates that I change my read" like ~everyone else~, instead of ignoring it and risk getting called out for it

[BT]

Yeah, but you never bothered to post anything that gives any hint that you seem to care about actually having an accurate read on camn at all. In a town mindset, it would be worth noting the flip at the very least makes her much less likely scum. (Or maybe you still had some reservations that it was a cross bus.) Something,

anything

that would indicate a genuine thought process.

Yes, it would have been better had I mentioned it, but I forgot, that much is obvious. It doesn't mean the thought process didn't exist. The point I'm making is that, while I have forgotten, it really doesn't point to scum, definitely not as much as you/CDB are saying it is. (in your case, enough to rank me above nost, who you have said plenty about)

[BT]

But really you never explain why you have a scum read on Dan? Your insistence on my answering the Dan question is weirding me out a little. Like you seem to convinced it was fake, which makes me wonder if you guys are partners. Because how else are you convinced it's a fake or at least trying to prove it was?

That's not it -- you said you read it as a towntell at the time and I disagreed with you (not because I thought it was a superincriminating scumtell but because it... wasn't a towntell, and the hesitation in his claim makes it lean scum overall (you seem to agree with this now?)).

My play this game doesn't seem that different from mafiastuck either, except for maybe explaining my town pov a lot more often? I can't do much if that's how you feel, anyway. I will say that I was wrong about my two d1 points that you brought up... I guess it was just me pointing out weird things first without thinking each point through. (more town pov *_*)

About the Shadoweh kill, outside of saying "i probably wouldn't have killed shadoweh" like a useless sack of bones I think a fair assumption would be that she was killed for being right.
Actually, the more I think about it, it's weird that she was killed for being right unless the scumteam were planning to sac absta early (d2?) anyway. In which case having another buddy help with the camn push is really dumb.

Finally, I don't see what's so bad about the sotty interactions. If it's another gut feeling than :whatever: but otherwise I think my points were sound. And I don't think I was throwing suspicion at my attackers... I'd even argue that it was the other way around (that is, I wasn't attacked by those I thought looked suspicious until I did).

I'll try and squeeze in a big post today either way.

(I think DV wanted a reply too so that'll happen then as well.)

[BT]

Ohh

I think my meta is different because of a Say Everything Anyway mentality

DV, do you think this is scummy or not?

[BT]

Uhh, "this" being what you pointed out, but I guess you can answer that too

[BT]

Of course.. despite having a LOT to say about me and Cerulean's discussion (which was not even oppositional), he has NOTHING to say about me and absta's discussion... which was

fully

oppositional. Nothing AT ALL. Hmm. Not a single mention.

hmm.

You mean you and plessie? Or...? Anyway: It's not that I had nothing to say on your fight with absta, but rather I wasn't there, at all. I literally stopped playing at around page 24 when your fight started at page 38. It's not like doing nothing is good but I definitely wasn't ignoring you on purpose. Really, just notice the huge difference in my :effort: between those two discussions.

[BT]

Rereading. Before that, though:

Pless - how many of these people do you think are town?

kuribo
Kise
JasonT1981
ChannelDelibird

Well, we're both confident on Jason being town at this point. We don't have a town read on any of the other three. But I don't think we're

that

good to have pinned the scumteam with the other three, so idk at least one should be scummy town? :shrug:

There is one (1) way of interpreting the last part and that is that you believe there are three remaining scum. With TGAH and absta, that means a total of 4 + traitor.

I'm assuming we'd have four with a traitor? idk?

~.Zar

I'm assuming we'd have four with a traitor? idk?

Wow.

Assuming you've taken math lessons:

absta + X + X + Traitor = 4. A four player scum-team PLUS a traitor would be OP in a 19 player game IMO.

kuribo: still don't think the absta kill makes sense from a SK's POV. Not that it isn't implausible, but just it seems subpar.

~Zar.

This must be the third time I've pointed this out. Zar, why won't you reply?

[BT]

What's going on is that the first post practically says "I'm playing with the assumption that there are 3 scum remaining" while the replies to people

pointing that out

are "no way, 4+1 would be OP", when 3 scum remaining points to 4+1. I'm not even sure if this is a slip or not... I'm generally lost.

One more thing @ CDB when he reads through everything: you said I was taking an easy stance as scum regarding your wagon. Have you missed #1471? "In general in light of the stronger urges I get from lynching other people + townreads on CDB faltering + CDB's #1452 (mainly the last part which is identical to my own reason for sticking to jason @ D1) I'm thinking this wagon shouldn't happen now." Happened before you started rereading, even.

[BT]

I don't think it's necessarily backtracking, because I don't think the reward is that big when they can be caught in a lie for it. It's mainly a big logic lapse that makes 0 sense every time I try and figure out what happened.

You pushing this along with me doesn't help, either~

[BT]

I do, but that doesn't really change much.

I'm reading through your ISO again. I'm getting the feel that your reads came and went, which seems plausible if you really are town finding it hard to read people but at the same time it doesn't seem like you're really

trying

and

failing

. In the one post where you gave an array of reads, they were all based on feelings without anything indicating where you got those reads from. Your conversations with people are mostly you arguing again their accusations instead of deducing stuff about whoever is accusing you. Right now you're sort of giving up but at the same time following the counterwagons and defending yourself which is plain awkward. Yeah, I think I'm whole with this.

I don't have much time but I'd like to go over some other people as well.

[BT]

I'm secondguessing my urge to lynch sotty, not because of the apparently horrible interaction but because I realized my accusations aren't as scum-pointing as I thought they were. I'm willing to go with Jason and company with this, though I still want them to say why they dislike the kuribo wagon (in some detail, since an ISO ctrl+f brings up squat), among other big wagons that they chose not to be a part of.

[BT]

If this isn't pushing the wagon then what is? I think I'm one of the only people to consistently bring up points against you, and even though benmage and cerulean have said the most they're barely half-hearted about this now. Like, how is this not taking part in your wagon? And why is it not reasonable that your wagon stalled because you're posting a lot of moody uselessness that naturally makes people handwave you altogether? Or did you not notice the difference from before you subbed in and after?

Even then, you say that scum want to keep you alive, so who are they lynching instead? Me?

I don't get your complaints, either. I'm arguing that you claim to be at least trying but there's no indication of that. Go ahead and tell me what you tried doing in the psat few days.

TAMMY: Are you going to at least reply to my posts? I noticed your remark in your SAD post about me not seeming to comment on him despite having a hard time @ mafiastuck, and, well, you're kind of right! I've been mostly resorting to posts like the Jason Gambit Analysis(tm) during D1 and that one rolespec post during D2 to townwave him but when it comes down to it I'm not sure, especially since I think Jason is town now. He's one of my reread targets.

About the slip, I... really don't see any other way of interpreting that. It clearly implies that the entire scumteam is those three slots.

[BT]

Well, it's this, but I'm not even sure what I want from you now, seeing as it was an awkward sort of post. I guess I want to reason with a townread that guts me as scum? I think more words on my part will do better than this, but considering comparisons to mafiastuck at all, do you still think I'm that different and do you think the difference makes me scum?

[BT]

15:(3+1), but you said you didn't think you'd pinned the scumteam in the list of three so one of them is scummy town. By the assumption you're working on there should have been only a group of 2 remaining, which is the route of the confusion I have with this.

Note: I'm soon gone for the rest of the day.

[BT]

Midnight post incoming:

Empire: I'm used to Dan doing weird shit so potentially CC'ing as scum doesn't raise any alarm bells at all, considering he was a pretty likely lynch. Fun thing about me killing Shadoweh, and that's what I was getting at in that post by saying "i wouldn't kill Shadoweh" and that it was a useless comment on my part -- I'm definitely not the kind of guy to kill because of ties, but the polar opposite: I wouldn't do it because it'd make people look at me and I wouldn't do it because one of the reasons I have for joining these large games is playing in different environments with people I know. (this is consistent with all of my large games up to now) If it clashes with the wincon then yes, I'd have killed her, but I honestly would have killed you or benmage or plessie or some other universally town and helpful dude. It's not like options were lacking -- on that front I'm as confused as you are on why Shadoweh was killed (and I don't blame you for thinking it's tied to me).

Kuribo: No final reads?

[BT]

Kuribo: No final reads?

I've already given my reads, captain literacy.

Every fucking time I post my reads / ask anyone a question half the town starts attacking me for it. It's damn near impossible to scumhunt with people saying, "Oh, whatever, that's not scumhunting, you're scum."

Now you're just being deliberately unhelpful. Would it be so bad to post a quick read list and one sentence for each read?

I forgot to reply to plessie... I guess I'm fine with that explanation? I don't see this going anywhere else and I think you're town otherwise so :pass:.

[BT]

Yo, Kise. Stop taking playing tips from Katsuki and get in here. You are lurking like a mofo and I don't like this.

Alternatively he can just replace out. I just went through his ISO and found virtually nothing telling. Baby Spice's ISO doesn't help.

It's 3 days to deadline, too, and SAD is V/LA. Like, I COULD support a Kise consolidation wagon simply because the slot is useless, but that means we gain no info at all from wagon analysis later. I think I'd rather he just replace out (or suddenly start reading everything) because right now

this

lynch is pretty suboptimal.

Gonna try reading SAD next.

TML, what's your reason for shying away from the kuribo wagon?

[BT]

Its been even longer since Nos posted but I don't see you complaining about that

How does this have anything to do with what I posted? Kise is a wagon so having near nothing to analyze is a big deal.

And did you just call my Lynch suboptimal?

The Kise lynch.

Come to think of it, do you even have a read on Nos? Most of the time you seem to mention him in passing.

Yes, I think he's town, though it's mostly from D1.

[BT]

You attack us on the basis that our kise vote is opportunistic, but then you turn around and relay a weak scum read on the slot. This makes no sense.

Only that's not a comparison. Your vote at the time was an oddball "let's lynch the quiet dude that everyone has a minor read on", and that's what I was calling opportunistic. *I* was just stating a read with my actual wagon interests being elsewhere. Not seeing this as badly as I saw it then but yeah it stuck out to me.

Couple that with your interactions with us where you strongly argue us scum while saying your gut conflicts with the read, and progress to you backing off more completely as our wagon proves more unpopular, and you have a few more reasons why we think you're scum.

I don't know what you're talking about here. I actually went through my posts again to see what this is about and I'm drawing a blank. At first I disliked some of your activities but, to quote, "sotty is in the realm of possible lametown". It's not a gut read, but rather I wasn't sure if you were just town on the wrong end of things or scum being scum. Then the kise vote made me think scum, for whatever reason, since when I look at it now it's similar to the rest of the things I disliked about you. (that's what led to my secondguessing)

~*~

Kuribo, it's not like I read Nost indepth, but nothing made me look at him either. Nothing he does pops up as scum motivated and the occasional insight looks town. Even what you said about this:

given the size of the game and the ease with which players (like absta, and myself to a more limited extent) can get lost in it.

(I assume it's this)
... doesn't suggest scum at all as it'd be awkward to group with the buddy in this case -- could have just compared with someone not on their team or, you know, not done it at all.

What's making you think he's trying to play it safe?

~*~

TML, yeah, but I guess I'm not seeing the scum in it as much as you are.

[BT]

Hey kuribo, can I interest you in a Kise lynch? BT posturing around it by saying "well, I guess I could lynch him but I'm super fkin interested in an information lynch on D2 of a 70 page large theme with two scum flips" suggests they might be partners!

Oh for crying out loud, you know this interpretation is completely unneeded. The point is that I literally don't see anything coming from a kise slot lynch when it could possibly be readable in the future (kise shows up / replaces out), whereas the kuribo slot, even if you now think the lynch is suboptimal for reasons I can't comprehend, it will be a clusterfuck until it's dealt with AND it has connections pretty much everywhere. You said it earlier so I'm basically repeating -- the kuribo slot will be lynched sooner or later. Why lynch the kise slot now instead? Yeah, I don't know if they're actually scum or not, but it is a lynch that tells us absolutely nothing if they're not, and a lynch that COULD tell us something if the slot happened to post. It is a literal waste of a lynch and that's unrelated to any scumflips or information we have access to.

Try answering again: why are we not lynching the kuribo slot?

[BT]

Mmm, no, I am pushing this because I think you're scum, but I'm saying that this lynch is the lynch even if they disagree.

About buddies, well, that's a problem. I'm considering just reading a bunch of things from scratch starting with absta's ISO because I feel like my reads are cardboard. All of them - even my read on you could use some help. I'm willing to bet that I'll reach similar conclusions anyway but at the very least I wouldn't need to semi-guess why I think a tree is a tree.

For the most part, I think that your connections with the one flipped scum incriminate you, that the CC with Zdenek was a last ditch ploy, that your predecessors have all pointed towards your slot being scum and that -your- play has been a bunch of huff and puff. All I'm going to do now is reread the facts and see if they agree. I mean, maybe I'll be able to lay down the facts better if I go over them for a change, who knows~

[BT]

What two scumbuddies down? This was during D1. And it

was

a direct CC: Dan said he thought the roles were almost identical. I'm thinking that neighborizer is your slot's role (obviously) and the plan was to claim that but Zdenek claimed something Dan thought would counter his claim so he just went with CCing. IIRC he was the most likely lynch at the time so it's not surprising at all but, hey, this is why I want to read things again, so I can base these things better.

[BT]

You know, zach, answering my rebuttal(s) is something you could do as well.

kuribo, it's not like I had no idea what color the sky is up to now. I just never cemented my thoughts as much as I'd have liked. And what I meant about connections is that it would clear up a lot of things that people were taking sides on... and that I'm also lynching you because I think you'll flip scum but whatever. Connections was a bad word?

pedit what the christ

link

looks like d1 to me

[BT]

I'm led to think that kuribo's #1758 makes the slot more likely lazy town. I mean, the "CAUGHT YOU IN A INCONSISTENCY" feels genuine and I think kuribo!scum would have been pretty clear of when and what his predecessor claimed.

So... can we all proceed to lynch Arthur now?

~Zar.

not gonna lie

was just going to point this out and go "is this real life"

glad to know I'm not dreaming though

UNVOTE:

I'm going to reread proper tomorrow (hopefully? i think i won't be around for most of the day and it's already midnight here but whatever)

pedit what I was saying is that Dan THOUGHT they were the same thing. He wasn't trying to fool anyone. He even says is later on, that he mixed up the two roles.

[BT]

That and the whole "hah, it says so in this super cool qt with dv i happen to have" @ the first part of the post

[BT]

I'm thinking I don't want a kuribo wagon at all now

Like, I don't think this isn't a Just Now thing that I'll end up waffling over again tommorow, I think I legitimately read kuribo as town now, maybe ~_~

And instinctively I think I'll be voting SAD over Kise unless reread returns SAD as town, but I'll wait with the vote until I do that

Zach there's still that reply thing I'm waiting for

[BT]

ebwop: don't think this is a Just Now thing

[BT]

you said you found some more reasons for me!scum but they don't make much sense

[BT]

if I recall the state of the lynch correctly at that point he was the Lynch To Be anyway

and I'm not expecting you to unvote, but at least understand that I wasn't spouting nonsense here!

[BT]

Couple that with your interactions with us where you strongly argue us scum while saying your gut conflicts with the read, and progress to you backing off more completely as our wagon proves more unpopular, and you have a few more reasons why we think you're scum.

Note also, BT backs down off my wagon once he sees the winds changing direction to himself.

they were doing that for a while

I only decided I was wrong right now

you said you found some more reasons for me!scum but they don't make much sense

I'm saying that your calling our vote of Kise opportunistic is scummy not just for the fact that it wasn't, but for the fact that you came out with an apparent scum read (weak) on that slot anyway. It doesn't make much sense to attack us for that vote if it's putting pressure on a player you think has a decent chance of being scum.

The vote for him wasn't just because he was quiet. BabySpice's play factored in to, and the post I quoted with the vote was done so because he came off as asking for votes (daring us to lynch him.) in that post, a request I am more than happy to oblige.

True? But it's not like I had ~*~a scumread~*~ on kise, it was only a minor gut feeling, so I don't think it's unreasonable that it didn't seem to phase me that much.

And I noticed the "lynch me" post. I think those sort of posts are null (though very anti-town) (i'm treating this kise lynch mostly as lynching the anti-town dude as things stand)

PEdit: It's because it was a minor feeling (again) that far from strong enough for me to say "yeah, there's a decent chance this is gonna flip scum". I'm against it because it isn't a good lynch.

[BT]

True? But it's not like I had ~*~a scumread~*~ on kise, it was only a minor gut feeling, so I don't think it's unreasonable that it didn't seem to phase me that much.

And I noticed the "lynch me" post. I think those sort of posts are null (though very anti-town) (i'm treating this kise lynch mostly as lynching the anti-town dude as things stand)

PEdit: It's because it was a minor feeling (again) that far from strong enough for me to say "yeah, there's a decent chance this is gonna flip scum". I'm against it because it isn't a good lynch.

Our vote on Kise is far from being because we thinks he's the anti-town dude. There are several people I could stick my vote on if I wanted to go for that. Take a look at this: This is Kise as town in a game we recently played together. Notice the difference? And I'm not even the biggest meta person out there, but when someone has played in a game with me and they've demonstrated an ability to be very thoughtful about people's alignments and replaces into another game and basically gives shoddy fluff, there's a problem. And it doesn't have anything to do with anti-town, it's that he hasn't provided a reason to think he's town and I know he can. He's lurking here and not providing content at all, therefore there's a really good chance he's scum.

As far as your "no information" bs...that's exactly what it is. I get irked when I hear people use that argument past day one. I can see where day one you might not want to lynch someone who hasn't provided content, but day 2 when we have 70 pages of information and two scum flips? Hell no. I'm going to lynch who I think has a good chance of being scum.

I didn't claim that other people treated the wagon the same. I know *I* don't think it has a high likelihood of causing a scum flip from what I deduced from Kise's slot's play (nothing). Though I think this is the first time someone linked to a past meta game? I'll take a look at it tomorrow.

The main thing I was saying in regards to "no information" is that I believed that given time the slot will become more clear. Though I guess if it that won't happen even under threat of lynch (right now) then, uh, point taken.

[BT]

It's 1:00 AM, mainly, but I'll give it a glance? Without looking at it it's a proven fact that players play differently in different games. Is this a recent game? Are the circumstances similar?

[BT]

I haven't read SAD yet but there has been an absta post that's been bothering me:

Vote:Ser Arthur Dayne

I agree with Benmage. The RP is not helping and is annoying.

Bubbles is a scum CI anyway.

Not liking this.
Are you voting him because of the RC or because "he's bubbles"?
Also, how do you know Bubbles is a role in this game?
Why would SAD-bubbles use an avatar of bubbles if he was with scum?
UNVOTE:

In which he looks more bothered by the vote (on SAD) than the player.

But reread tomorrow.

~*~

And yeah, the difference between Kise's opening in that game sure is noticeable. I'd rather establish my opinion tomorrow though as it's really late now.

[BT]

There's a bigger problem with that, actually.

Considering he claimed doc.

Why the fuck would you want to be lynched as doc?

[BT]

So, first the reason for not lynching Kise is lack of wagon analysis once he is lynched. (And I agree with Cerulean that this is scummy, but don't think it indicates buddies as much as BT-scum)

Next, it's totally about Kise's slot potentially being more readable and you don't even know why Cerulean would think it was the former.

What does the second part even mean?

You're definitely on the to-read list. Your me-read crept from slight town to this with consistently meh reasons.

[BT]

I mean, yeah.

Kise slot is null. BT is null with maybe a hint of town.

BT's 1350 says that the thread points pretty strongly to kuribo-scum, but all he really says is "his macho doesn't seem town-fueled". You don't get to go all "ew 1v1 lynch" and then talk about how you just can't decide between Kuribo and Sotty, because Kuribo is

actually

really scummy.

[...]

I'll probably make a decision as to what I want to do and read over some people like BT and Nost, maybe Sotty this weekend.

[...]

PEdit: Reading that [BT's] post, I think he's trying too hard to address the points, when in some of the cases he doesn't really have anything to say (particularly the Shadoweh kill, but the whole post gives me that kind of vibe).

So, first the reason for not lynching Kise is lack of wagon analysis once he is lynched. (And I agree with Cerulean that this is scummy, but don't think it indicates buddies as much as BT-scum)

Next, it's totally about Kise's slot potentially being more readable and you don't even know why Cerulean would think it was the former.

Yeah....

I may get up other stuff I think of him later, but he's officially a scumread now. I don't know whether I'd prefer him or SAD if the Kise wagon falls apart, but I'll stay on SAD for now.

I may have been a little too harsh saying "meh reasons" but I generally thought they were a bit underwhelming and I guess this just doesn't sit well with me considering it was a weak side thing that crept up to "I don't know whether I'd prefer him or SAD". I literally had to make him say "scummy" in response to the third post.

[BT]

Or in other words your read's strength doesn't match your words which makes it more likely you're scum worrying their stance is too weak (it seems more like a tacked on scum read than an honest progression from a townie). Supporting this is him not going through with reading me and instead going with these weak points. He doesn't even mention any connection to absta which seemed to be the most convincing point against me.

PEdit: Powerrole play means he'd be much more hesitant to just go "lynch me", in case it actually happens and he'd be forced to claim. Normal lurk townies don't care as much.

[BT]

So correct that to "why would you taunt people like that as doc"

It's really fucking fishy

[BT]

VOTE: Kise

I do want to read some stuff today. This is vote #7.

[BT]

I also think what I just said about DV not commenting on the absta connection means he pretty much hasn't bothered getting an accurate read on me

[BT]

Well yeah

It argues that he shouldn't be a doctor

In which case he shouldn't be town

[BT]

I tend to believe kise. I don't think luring a doc into a counterclaim would be productive scum strategy at this stage.
On the other hand, I've done exactly that before to set people up for my buddies to find.

Scum lost two teammates and it's D2. Kise lynch would have gone through easily without a solid claim. Boom, solid claim, too bad it doesn't make sense.

[BT]

I'd have suggested that the real doctor cc normally, actually, because we have this early lead, but thankfully we don't need to do that now.

[BT]

Oh right, you're biased

What makes you think the real doctor would cc given that the lynch is going well without him doing that?

[BT]

Actually

I don't know how Kise plays. Do you know how Kise plays? Would he taunt people into lynching him as the most important town pr?

(this is a question and an argument)

[BT]

Anyone else can answer that too

[BT]

Hoping CDB posts before this day ends. My jaw hasn't dropped in response to his cases unlike others and him not even bothering with rebuttals and anything else despite having a day off and despite seeming like the I Will Push This BT Lynch guy when he was talking about it makes me raise a brow.

Sotty, offtopic, do you agree with me on DV?

PEdit: What do you mean by paranoid?

[BT]

BT, what is the Absta connection?

Also, one of my points I admitted was bad, but the others are fine in my opinion.

About the part that you were confused with, the point is that you originally said the information reason for not wanting to lynch Kise was wagon analysis. Then when Cerulean accuses you of using information as a reason in a game with so much information already, you say that you meant that more posts from Kise or a replacement would make the slot more readable, and you don't understand why Cerulean accused you of what he did.

I'm talking about CDB's case that everyone seemed to like at the time. I don't think you ever mentioned it / your agreement with it / your disagreement with it.

I also believe I said Kise needs to replace out at the very beginning, so no, you're wrong about that.

~*~

I actually read through Arthur's D1 again and... I don't think I have any problems with it. I'm not familiar with scum SAD and I don't have anything to say even after skimming Open 472 so... I don't know what to say here. Like, yes, he could have been tunneling on Jason as an easy target to excuse him of more major scumhunting but I don't think it particularly came from scum. *sigh*

[BT]

Hmm, DV, can you be a little more clear on your priorities (me, SAD, Kise) and how everything fits together?

[BT]

SAD, quick tour of your current scumreads?

[BT]

BT, I think the first part is ok, but I don't like the part about you and absta attacking Camn. I don't see why it was so important for me to comment on it?

Also, yes you said you'd like him to replace out in the first post, but the reason you provided was wagon analysis. Pretending that there is no reason to suspect you is something scum would do in an attempt to counter suspicion. I think town would be more apologetic for not saying what they actually meant.

Kise is kind of scummy, but considering that I also find you and SAD scummy, I am probably happy to pursue one of you today because of the claim.

My point was that you didn't seem to mention it but you said you'd read me and then you decided you suspect me... it just comes off as really weird. It's like you didn't really care to read my slot / people's cases on my slot but found some things you disliked and eventually called it a scumread. Now that I'm saying this to myself it sounds like Objectively Bad (Not Necessarily Scummy) Play. Like at first I thought your weak reasons are a sign of you tacking on a popular scumread but they don't seem -fake- or something. I'll have to mull this over.

I'm not pretending, I'm pretty sure. When I told Kise to replace out / get active it pretty much implies I thought the slot needed activity (and that I preferred this over getting rid of the slot)... so it's exactly what I'm saying. I don't get your point here - I think you're being a bit too nitpicky.

[BT]

PEdit: What do you mean by paranoid?

Bascially, to me your reasoning seems pretty terrible as you just progressed from "I don't think Kise is likely to flip scum" to "Kise claimed doctor, let's lynch him because that's what scum does!". It seems to me like you're working under the premise that Kise's claim has to be fake, because scum would fake-claim. Sure, scum

might

fake claim Doctor, but also a town Doctor might claim Doctor?

Then again, to me your suggestion doesn't feel contrived at all.

~Zar.

Eh, the weird progression is probably because it looked like their play outright conflicted with the claim (what makes me think scum isn't the claim itself...). Looking at it now it's not a blatant "come and get me town" as I thought it was but it's still mindboggling as to why the doc would knowingly pull attention his way with posts like these two.

PEdit: Same answer, pretty much. It's not like my reads haven't changed.

[BT]

Sickposting. Was enough of a bother to just skim through the 6 new pages.

Savino Bratton, Goon and aligned with the Barksdale Organization. I'm not going to be able to do much in my state and my slot is distracting enough and I've been evidently really bad so far, so I wouldn't mourn in the face of my lynch.

I still prefer a Kise lynch over anything else. Would like to ask kuribo what the hell would keeping him alive do for us (and for him to think before answering). I also would like to ask him how much of his not wanting to lynch Kise is because he thinks I'm scum, and if me flipping town will change anything there. Even after posting quite a bit under pressure I see not one concrete read / anything pointing to the slot's activity being town, instead all I see is survival. I'm pretty sure all of his posts are reactionary without a hint of him trying to figure out the best wagon to be on.

If I'm going to do something it's -maybe- finishing up reading SAD to make sure I don't want that lynch. The recent "I think Kise slipped with flavor knowledge" reads genuine too.

Otherwise I'd take a guess and say sotty is scum for his no less than active lurking through all of this wagon consolidation crap. Even without that, their latest post guts as scum. I'm pretty sure they haven't commented on me for a while so they're effectively ignoring the fact that I was on Kise with them. Would totally quicklynch.

CDB too for literally doing nothing but being wrong today. I expect lots of scrutiny here if and when I flip.

... That turned out a lot longer than I thought possible. Probably taking a break though because headaches.

[BT]

Scratch that.

I'm pretty sure all of his posts are reactionary without a hint of him trying to figure out the best wagon to be on.

Don't know what I was smoking here. His initial "no, SAD's reaction is worss *switches vote*" isn't bad at all, though the second switch was due to flavor reasons so...?

[BT]

Otherwise I'd take a guess and say sotty is scum for his no less than active lurking through all of this wagon consolidation crap. Even without that, their latest post guts as scum. I'm pretty sure they haven't commented on me for a while so they're effectively ignoring the fact that I was on Kise with them. Would totally quicklynch.

What does you being on Kise have to do with anything? We already think you're both scummy at this point. You voting him doesn't change that.

You not saying anything about it at all. It's like you didn't give it a second thought.

PEdit: Active lurking. Not lurking. Your presence 24 hours ago felt really minimal though hopefully I'm not making things up here.

[BT]

There does seem to be this weird thing going on where you and kise are suddenly interested in lynching each other. It hasn't gone unnoticed at all.

See, why wait until now to say this? Why not say anything when I changed votes?

[BT]

So feel free to tell me what a Sottyrulez town flip tells the town about you, Kise, Jason, and BT.

... He was obviously referring to the scenario in which you flip scum. This feels really awkward considering you're not on the brink of a lynch.

[BT]

Like, it's kind of a slightly desperate post that town like to flip do. And you're not that likely to flip at all.

[BT]

ebwop: town likely to flip do

[BT]

Mmm, not dead yet. Okay.

As tempting as it is,

don't

lynch kuribo after I flip. That one gotcha post is extremely telling. He's actually right about people advocating both his lynch and mine; keep your eyes peeled for that.

Two posts above is townie too.

Something I thought of overnight is TML.

Change mod set:
##Unvote
##Vote: The Mini-Librarian
For contrieved reasoning like 'calling for mass nameclaim must mean a third party' and avoiding commenting on current vote (never commenting on it really. 'it felt funny'.) along with asking why absta isn't voting for someone Mini himself isn't convinced is scum? Mostly I don't like your face double spacing that makes it look like your post is alot bigger then it is, when you only express one solid read in the entire thing. Sounds like lurking.

She was on him for a while before switching to absta.

Also ctrl+f absta @ his ISO. His push on him wasn't all that impressive, and then he just switched to peta for meta-related reasons. Plus his play today was zzz to the max. He did that PoE thing early on instead of properly finding people scum. His presence on the Kise wagon was also weak as he just jumped on and off with the wind. Even more points if Kise is scum.

I think him > sotty by far actually.

[BT]

I prefer my own flip at this point because I'm not confident at all in SAD flipping scum and I don't trust my ability to make this slot not bothersome D3 in the face of the huge bias that exists atm

Do you really think SAD's activities make him scum? Do you think he has a better chance of flipping scum than people like TML? (I'll reread to make sure but I'm pretty sure he's scum)

[BT]

Problem is I'm willing to bet SAD will flip town and you don't have to be a genius to figure out half the town won't move on until I flip.

[BT]

... Alternatively I could say the same about SAD.

I'll read his ISO again soon (still a bother for me because I'm sick) but eh.

[BT]

Nothing sticks out, pointed out some things that seem town to me, though I'll know to answer this question properly after I read.

[BT]

No lynch the worst option available

Prefer my lynch over no lynch

[BT]

Please do try to compose yourself when I flip town

You're making me legit worried

[BT]

... And then I remembered how big SAD's ISO

is

.

I don't know... I feel like I think he's town enough but not enough to say he isn't scum, yet him flipping town instead of me would make me feel like a horrible shit because he's more capable. (because the number of townies confidently reading me as scum has made me lose faith in my town game)

I just really

don't want to do it

.

I'm even leaning towards the scumteam being on SAD's wagon for the explicit purpose of leaving me alive.

How do you explain the wagon rising this much otherwise? It certainly wasn't a big deal until recently.

PEdit: That's nothing exclusive to scum, though.

I'm just feeling ridiculously useless right now.

[BT]

(Wrote this a bit earlier so this may overlap with CDB's post.)

VOTE: The Mini-Librarian

TML's first opinion post has a bunch of quick catchup-stype reads, except for when he asks absta about his no use of vote without saying anything. (was it unlike what SD did -- "bad at mafia or scum"?) He later talks about the same post in a tone that suggests he finds it scummy, yet he says nothing of the sort. His next post is him voting absta because he doesn't like any of his posts (absta ignores this attack completely, for the entire game). He asks the SD voters to consider absta but nothing over the top and he switches to peta later anyway. I think the big thing to note here is that he seems to explain his reads / update them... except for the one on absta, which he never revisits. He completely ignores his fight with camn along with anything else he did (he was actually there posting and giving opinions on other people at the time, but not on his absta scumread of unknown magnitude).

I was planning to have another paragraph for D2 but... there really isn't anything to say. A lot of his posts are actually just unimpressive ~*~questioning~*~. He also gets himself a gigantic list of people he doesn't want to lynch which seems to be there to siggal his lynch pool for the day -- after the CDB wagon dies down he migrates to Kise, and when the doctor claim comes out he takes time to "think about it", only to lynch SAD in the end. He pretty much had no original scumhunting for the entirety of D2.

[BT]

People who think Kise is town should tell me their thoughts on his entrance to the game, seeing as his D1 can be summed up as a lazy push on unlikely suspects -- much more likely to come from a scum replacement.

Have some more food for thought:
#777: "I'm feeling a certain way about abst -> camn & plez.

camn should be town here actually

."
#915: "Shadow, camn & Nos... I aint fucking with none of they posts.

Last two is looking suspect as hell

, probably lurking til another DL crunch wagon is decided on so they can skip-hop they ass on it... that's speculation tho."

By the way, what

did

you mean by that in #777, Kise? You said "I will come back to this when I read from start to current..." but you never did. And this is an absta-related matter we're talking about.

Also, I'm still puzzled by your sad->kuribo->sad->me transition because the whole checking the wiki thing seems out of place. From #1989: "I glanced at both character wikis. Before unvoting you the second time, I read D'angelo's wiki more to see if it would sway me off you. I still don't like that you were inconsistent with your read of me post-doc claim and yes, I'm kind of purely unvoting you because you're claiming a Barksdale person." Why would the wiki sway you off at all? Why drop voting people off of game-relevant things for "brb, voting off of the wiki" in the first place, only to vote me for 'turncoating' eventually? In fact, from #1984: "So I went back to you [SAD] but then thought it over and said fuck BT for turncoating." Didn't you say you changed your mind because he "claimed a Barksdale person"? Yet here it looks like you found me scum

mier

than SAD. Overall I'm thinking this was a scum attempt at looking genuine judging by the number of holes and general weirdness.

[BT]

DV, question that came up on rereads -- you never explained your ED1 vote on CDB for what seemed like his early vote on absta. It was super early in the game but still something I think the answer to will be helpful.

Another interesting little something -- you voted Jason but then questioned me & TGAH on our Jason reads in a way that suggests that you read him as town. It took you 300 more posts to mention that you did read him as town, because of sottyrulez's townread. Point being, if you count only the posts in which you address Jason's slot, these three posts come one after another, with Jason being a constant popular wagon. You had plenty of other posts inbetween that seemed completely oblivious and uncaring for the wagon. Why is this?

[BT]

I think the remaining scum are here:
JasonT1981
kuribo
Nostredeus
ChannelDeliBird
Kise

I ought to take a closer look at TML....And maybe sotty if I have time....I'm getting a little nervous one of my strong town reads on plessie/cerulean could be a well made veil.

I think Cerulean is

too

effort-y to be scum. By that I mean you can find posts such as this in their ISO that read like they're honestly pouring out everything they think about someone in an attempt to find scum. (this post in particular seems like Tammy legit struggling to read SAD)

As for Plessiezarus, that's a bit easier. (it isn't, but I found Plessiez's posts reasonable for the most part)

absta's ISO is littered with Jason clears.

kuribo I went over already. Do you feel like he's

that

good at faking emotions?

I think one of the reasons behind the sottyrulez NK is to bring Nost to people's attention. They haven't actually mentioned Nost in a while after my wagon and Kise's formed but it was Nost who found them scummy so I don't know? I haven't read Nost yet but that's the feeling I get. Or... maybe it's to prompt people to suggest a townread lynch~

CDB is... pending, though the TML flip will definitely help (D2, today?).

[BT]

Are you planning to actually contribute today, Zdenek? It would be nice.

Also: target?

[BT]

Yeah I WAS lazy. Phone posting from the point I replaced in (page 20 something?)...what aspects of my commentary determined that my entrance was more likely scum replacing in than town, in your opinion? If I went with more likely suspects, wouldn't that just be bandwagoning?

One of the aspects I look at is how aware a replacement is of their role as a

replacement

in a game. Since the game is already running and your slot is already used, as town you'd want to get involved in the current state of the game pronto. As a scum replacement it's easy to stay disconnected with "hey, these are my scumreads, they may or may not be relevant at this stage, I'm done here" -- more interested in showing *some contribution*, even if the contribution is more or less irrelevant. You didn't give a clear opinion on a number of wagons, and that's indicative of the latter, not the former.

I'm always going to try my hand at guessing flavor, ask Ben & Tammy. D'angelo was a VT (and him being the nephew of an important character; possibly a super important character on his own) didn't read fake claim. TGAH claimed VT already, and I [personally] doubt scum would have VT attached to a major character.

Fair enough, but you say this caused you to think that kuribo's claim was weird. How does that make sense if SAD's claim was to be the only "weird" one?

You were the same way, as someone who went along with wagoning me to be with the majority. When I claimed doc, "nah I don't believe him, he's scum" is what came from you too. You also gave some reason for it - something to do with docs shouldn't taunt people. So YEAH, it read like a bullshit reason to keep voting the doc and get me out via lynch rather than at night when I could have eyes watching over me.

I actually

wasn't

voting you

until

the doc claim. If you're looking for opportunistic "he claimed doc, let's finish him" conspirators, one of them flipped town tonight.

[BT]

gee, imagine that, SAD was town, it's almost like you people should have listened to me and lynched BT instead

[BT]

Did I say I was looking? Why even feel urged to compare yourself to dead town?

You actually didn't

say

anything -- I have no idea if you still think this way or not. Wasn't comparing anything, either, just a playful comment that means nothing unless you still think the exact same way.

Bt is looking townier lately, but after he kept talking about how suspicious Sotty was, I'm a bit surprised he didn't mention it at all.

You mean today? sottyrulez's slot gave me a hell of a time but I was planning to give them a break today, mostly for stuff like this (don't necessarily agree, but found it to be townie). I also chose to believe their claim that their read on me was wavering, but that was mostly due to gut. (I was going to say all of this today but then they flipped.)

[BT]

Unless Kise didn't read any of my posts except for the ones he replied to, he's even

more

likely to be scum for noticing me asking zden for targets without that prompting him to go "hey, I, as a pr, have a target too" and revealing his own.

He's claimed to be a modified doc, and that the modification is "more harmful than helpful". And, clearly, he hasn't revealed his target today. Doesn't take a genius to guess those two facts might be connected.

There's nothing suggesting the "more harmful than helpful part" refers to the effect itself... plus, consider that he seemed to out Cerulean as his N1 target normally.

I don't think we learn anything from his alignment by forcing him to claim who he protected

I don't think that's what kuribo planned to do -- he just pointed out the fact.

^Some nonesense with Absta connections.. Remind me to look for those tonight (irl) if I don't.

Telling Jason-absta connections:

vifam delivering one liners isn't relevant to his alignment that's just how he posts also he's p clearly posting content so ur dum imho

Calling someone dumb only works if you can actually use correct grammar, punctuation and spelling and not with the result that you make yourself look dumb in the process.

This is a town reaction to an insult. Not that strong but it's good enough to make jason leaning town.
The insult wouldn't really apply to scum-Jason (assuming Vifam isn't scum) so he could've just ignored it. Plus, this looks quite genuine.
He's only slight town because faking the reaction as scum isn't hard, I've done it before.

"This is a very solid reason to think someone is town. Also, he might be scum."
Alternatively: "This is genuine. Also, he could have faked it."

It's stating a town read and explaining it when it isn't popular opinion (EZ for scum) while making sure to leave the option open anyway.

Mostly, it's a good reason to read someone as town so if he knows Jason to be a buddy he shouldn't have a reason to weaken it like that and later go:

Post #351 by SAD makes some sense. I was town-reading Jason for his gambit but this changed my mind.

Completely forgetting that reason.

I don't think this commentary is even needed -- the quotes speak for themselves.


zzzzzz this day is slow

[BT]

Eh, still around, just got nothing to say and too busy to do rereads.

[BT]

I don't feel like posting five times so you get this artificially split wall-post.

~*~

RE: Kise's fullclaim

I could see why people would gut this as town, I guess? The whole "Faradaymod saw it, so it's likely he put it in his setup over Kise choosing to fakeclaim it" thing makes sense though I'm not 100% sold yet. This day will likely have a different wagon going anyway.

~*~

My gut still tells me BT is scum, and even though Ben took it upon himself to try and poke holes in my case for BT, I can't really say that I've ever been that good at building cases anyway.

Mmm, okay doc, what makes you gut me as scum besides that one time I thought you were scum? I feel like you haven't revisited that / any of my play and you probably should. Worst case scenario, you end up building a better case, so it's all good.

~*~

So far, I've read the first 3 pages and from page 80 onward. I'll take some time out today to read flipped scum, check out cases, and find out what the hell is going on with all the claims. For now, though, I'm inclined to think BT is town based on behavior that seemed genuine, though I'm interested in hearing BT's response to DeasVail, so an explanation will come after that's done. I have no idea why there's a wagon on ChannelDelibird. If the reason is in one of camn's spoiler tags, it's gone forever. He seems like town, though? Even if I can't put a finger on why.

Out of everyone else, I wouldn't lynch jasonT1981 or kuribo. Based on posts, Plessiezarus looks like town, but I'm putting a hold on that until I see Ser Arthur Dayne's and Tammy's opinions on the Zar head. Okay, that was an impressive list, huzzah.

"Nice list of townreads." I'm actually giving this more town points than scum points considering as scum I'd expect him to hurry and find material to lynch over instead of townreading the other wagons. Not so strong considering he might treat the wagon on him as final (considering how this day went so far), but I'll stay tuned for his scumreads at the moment.

~*~

Okay DV, some of the stuff during my reread between D2 and D3 made me lean town (early D1 posts IIRC), but now you're being weird again.

-In 1451 I make an accusation against BT that is completely untrue. (This was unintentional by the way) Yet, in 1471 he doesn't have a problem with this. This is not how I would expect town to think. If town has reason to think X is scum, and I come in and say "You have no reason to think X is scum!", wouldn't the natural reaction be "Hey! I totes do!"? Instead you just get this placating stuff.

If you actually take the time to read the paragraph, I accuse you of making no sense and saying things for the sake of saying them. Not only is that far from "placating", but it also means that for the most part, I had no idea what you were trying to say. IIRC, I thought you accused me of comparing kuribo to sotty when I had a lot more reason to suspect the former (this is how I replied to that post). So yeah, if I'd known you were accusing me of that (something completely different), I probably would have reacted that way. It's like you didn't take the time to read my reply and instead handwaved it as "that placating stuff", which gives you no points from me.

-1620 is another that just feels designed to placate and as I said before, the focus is on addressing all the points. Some he doesn't really have anything to say, but he still says

something

.

Aaaaand there is nothing wrong with this. Me wanting to reply to everything means I wanted to reason with that townread as much as possible. I could argue that scum making the extra effort to reply to everything they can puts them at unneeded risk -- it really isn't telling of anything.

Admittedly it's not that strong, but with abundant townreads and a lack of scumreads that's pretty much how it has to be. I also don't really see any reason for him to be town, but if anyone would like to provide that for me clearly, that would be amazing.

This is you telling people to excuse your weak D3 reads instead of going out and making them better.

Now, TML. I'm still not sure on him. The general reasoning is the kind of thing that sounds good, but I feel it could easily be something a player gets mislynched over. I'm kind of waiting to make up my mind on this slot, but people's willingness to lynch BT would be much appreciated.

You said nothing outside of "TML is a major scumread" in regards to his wagon and now you're casting doubt on it with no drawbacks. It's also weird that you garner interest in a wagon you expressed a weak conviction to, specifically noting that it isn't a strong stance and that people are welcome to prove you wrong. ... Really, I wish I was making this up.

I remember you being all sorts of unhelpful during Mafiastuck, but I don't think I actively disliked your posts then. In fact, considering you got your main scumread lynched D2 and it was a town flip, why didn't town!you express some sort of drive to reread and find where you went wrong? Instead all you're doing is following up on your suspicion of me from D2 (whom your wrongly flipped scumread read as "damnnnnnnn, town to the max") and being weird around the main wagon of the day. SAD seems like nothing but a void in your list of scumreads now as you're not making an effort to find the real scum. I accuse you, DeasVail, of not giving a crap about mislynching a member of the town. ... Actually, reading your ISO, you expressed the same kind of weak read when voting SAD. Which is bad in a different way, because you're essentially coasting on weak reads all game, which excuses you from caring that much when it turns out you're wrong. If you're town, show me that you really are trying to find scum instead of floating through the game, because the only reason I'm not listing you as scum (and haven't listed you as scum all game) is the same kind of "mislynch material" paranoia you talked about in regards to TML.

~*~

I like DVs commentary on BT more than I like the Librarian/equinox wagon.

I was going to ask you to explain how a self-admittedly weak commentary outweighs multiple cases that had people nodding heads to for half the day, but then I remembered that you were never on the TML wagon. In fact:

The Mini-Librarian

#307 could be a bus..some mild suspicion.. a rather quick jump to a wagon on likely town..but I am a fan of his D2 play. I think

TOWN

..

@nos-
Considering alternative lynches is a positive thing for the town. The TML wagon doesn't need my vote... and we all need more varied conversation.

???
If you read TML as town and think CDB is scum, why are you showing signs that you might join the wagon?

[BT]

What signs?



Though ftr, I will generally endorse a Lynch on my townreads over a NO Lynch.

Saying "I like THIS over THAT" usually implies you're considering or were considering both choices.
Saying "this wagon doesn't need my vote" implies you would have been on the wagon if it wasn't as packed, though I guess I misread this if you meant "if the wagon needs my vote to avoid NL".

[BT]

DV, do you think there was scum on the SAD wagon?

kuribo, I was the one who started running up TML but that's unrelated -- do you think it unreasonable that I had more drive when I was getting wagoned / the game was more active? This day has been kind of uneventful so me losing that drive isn't a big surprise. I had it until the start of the day, at least.

[BT]

Mmm, okay doc, what makes you gut me as scum besides that one time I thought you were scum? I feel like you haven't revisited that / any of my play and you probably should. Worst case scenario, you end up building a better case, so it's all good.

see, at least now you're posting, all it took was voting you

You could still do this, you know

[BT]

You could still do this, you know

don't mock me, don't be all smug just because ben thought he shot holes in my case for you

Not mocking you, telling you to revisit your read

do you think it unreasonable that I had more drive when I was getting wagoned / the game was more active?

yuuuuuuup asure do

Taking my posts seriously would be nice

[BT]

I do think that BT is more likely to be partner to absta than CDB is, given absta's interactions with both.

What CDB interactions are you talking about?

Is your main reason for thinking Kuribo is town still the fact that ActionDan angrily replaced out at the start of day 2? I'm really not convinced that's at all alignment-indicative.

Guh? Didn't you agree with me that kuribo's gotcha was town way back then?

[BT]

Eh, nevermind about that second part, saying "I'm really not convinced" the way you said it made me think you're unsure about him.

[BT]

I was going to ask that. I also don't see how SAD's wagon was the stable one -- SAD wasn't looking like an actual lynch until the very end of the day.

[BT]

Equinox, who would you put your vote on right now if you had to?

[BT]

And I refuse to assume BT is town

You refuse to read my posts, too.

Really, the last time you attempted to write -something- that explains your read, my responses were a-ok and your reply was essentially "haha, not taking you seriously". As someone who has been ticked off by my insistence that you were scum on D2, it's even more annoying that you don't see the flip side here.

Like, he [benmage] literally says he's hoping I'm scum, but doubting it, but wants me to take rope just for his own peace of mind.

Entirely serious question -- is this the same way you feel about me? Not the doubting part, but are you doing this mainly for peace of mind? You make sure to show your overflowing conviction here and there but considering you're not doing much else it feels like you just want this over with. There's also the fact that you won't check if you're wrong lest the unthinkable happens and you change your mind.

By the way, question:

and plus, with the addition of a hydra to the neighborhood, i have more people to talk to than deas, who only seemed to pop his head in like every few days

Is he still doing this? Would you say he's more active in the QT than he is in the thread or the other way around?

~*~

Don't see this as any kind of town tell. Why wouldn't scum-BT want to discredit votes on his partners wagon? Especially a tracker?

Why

would

the scumteam want to discredit votes on an even-night tracker, especially considering it was Death Fodder absta? Your logic works backwards here.

Jason was a strong scum read for us day one, and he really hasn't done anything to read as town. The only thing that clears him is his gambit and the push that TGAH gave to him.

Hi there, I happen to be one of those people that made clear that there are absta-Jason connections that clear Jason, multiple times. I know you're being lazy with your scumread on me but this is ridiculous.

Stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop.

You two are officially in time out and can not look at or speak to each other for one hour.

Note that I do think you're town -- the above is yet another quote to add to the collection, but I do think you're taking up kuribo's method of not paying attention to scumreads.

Camn - to answer your question: Nostredeus without a doubt, closely followed by Jason.

Why not DV here? Not that the other two aren't useless, but what's the thought process here?

~*~

Another question for DV when / if he replies to them:

DV -- if BT is your top scum-read, why are you not voting him? Why do you have to know how interested people would be in a BT lynch first?

Um, I don't know. I don't think a vote at this point particularly matters and I'm not really sure I want to go against the Equinox wagon, but I suppose I may as well.

... Why did you feel this way? Why would going "against the Equinox wagon" matter if you'd only be telling people to vote your other scumread? In fact, you made it clear that I'm the scumread you're more sold on, which makes this more baffling.

In lack of a reason for town to feel this way, this seems like scum not leaving behind evidence for when Equinox flips scum. (Even though DV's different way of pushing him and me is telling enough, scum usually give much more weight to their past -votes-. No vote means no worries.)

~*~

Other than the fact TGAH attacked Nost (which I'd been assuming meant Nost was probably not Police), I think Nost looks pretty awful.

Could you elaborate on this? CDB's "I don't see anything fake" is exactly the stance I took regarding Nost on D2 and it hasn't changed.

~*~

BT when you're scum are you the sort of player who pays attention to what his buddies are doing?

I never

ignore

my buddies, but I usually never do more than skim their posts. Which means I don't

completely

pay attention.

[BT]

Your responses were not "a-ok," and in fact made you look scummier than before. The first case I made against you, even if it were flawed, you (1) allowed Ben to make the defense for you. (2) Your attempt to mollify me by calling me town for the most abject stupid fucking reasoning in all of Christiandom (HE GOT CONFUSED ABOUT WHAT DAY THE CLAIM WAS MADE, THEREFORE HE'S SOLID TOWN, MOVE ALONG PEOPLE) is obvious. (3) And you've twice now gone so far as to say, in effect, "Hah, if you think I'm scum, prove it, bet you can't lolololol." (4) Then in this post you essentially tell DV to stop poking you or you'll rethink your town read on him. I mean, do you not get how sleazy that is?

(1) benmage got there first -- feel free to check. IIRC I replied to things freely so it's not like I let other people defend myself.
(2) That's not the reason, plus there's nothing wrong with making a 180 like that.
(3) Poor interpretation. I was telling you to take a look because I felt like you weren't.
(4) Wrong -- what I do tell him is to post. And I don't have a town read on him. I don't see how you reached that conclusion at all.
A lot of this is just you subjectively interpreting my actions into whatever. This is an accurate presentation of what you're doing: "BT is scum, that's why <reasons>, that's why he's scum".

[BT]

Okay kuribo, be like that

It's obvious that I mean you have a BIASED view of my behavior. You are more than welcome to have your own interpretation of things but when you disregard most of my play and point out parts of my behavior in the worst possible way, no, they aren't interpretations that come

naturally

.

And what do you, Cerulean and DV have in common? A QT, but besides that, none of you give me the impression that the current lynch possibility dangling above my slot is justified. During D2, I fully accepted the fact that I played sub-optimally and I compensated in every way I could, including volunteering to be lynched just so people like you would move on. Yet right now I'm still struggling to figure out what's making me a possible fallback option over others (hello DV, Nost) besides magical rainbow orgasms in that QT.

You said it yourself -- my play had a part in making you doubt your read. Obviously this is referring to my end-of-D2 play which plenty of people thought was town. Why? Because people are telling under pressure. It's why you want to pressure people in the first place. You got to witness one of the most pathetic sagas in my mafia career, because I decided to literally scramble and make the most out of my slot before I was done for. What more do you need?

In other news, Plessiez's #2443 is excellent. Deadline isn't far away and I'm gonna be busy for the next few days but I do want to reanalyze Nost and compare with TML/Equinox now. They're probably not scum together, at any rate.

[BT]

Then you should string him up either before or after me? Hint hint?

TBF, yeah, I am to string him up instead of you

if

I don't know who to choose, but it's not like I've forgotten what made me look at your slot in the first place, or what made me initially townread Nost. The rereading I want to do is to confirm that I'm right in placing you over him.

I don't think that DeasVail would have the nerve to openly say that he doesn't want to derail his buddies wagon.

... Why? That's a very buddy-like stance to take, if anything else. He basically said he doesn't

want

to derail the wagon but he

just

has to make everyone look at other options. He said he agreed with the case when there was consensus but when everything died down he threw a random doubt-inducing comment in the form of "mislynch material". If you're looking for Equinox buddies, he's first in line.

[BT]

I don't think it's as obvious as you think it is. For him, there's always the option of citing "but I was all for it at first", plus we're facing a possible two-men-remaining scumteam. You don't exactly have the freedom to -not- take a chance to save your buddy if that's the case.

[BT]

You literally did the same thing just now

You did the same thing when you subbed in, pointing to anything that seemed to possibly suggest you!town

Like, wow, man

[BT]

First priority is math:

2 * 2

- 3 + 1 + 1 +

6 * 1

-

3 / 3

+ 3

4

- 3 + 1 + 1 +

6

-

1

+ 3
1 + 1 + 1 + 6 - 1 + 3
3 + 6 - 1 + 3
9 - 1 + 3
8 + 3
11

Every defense just boils down to lololol u so stupid. Their blatant attempts to discredit their wagons are so insanely scummy that I just want to vomit white hot fury into the thread

I'm probably going to say this a lot but, really, no, no. Nothing about it is 'insanely scummy' -- if I think you're wrong I'm going to tell you that you're wrong. This didn't happen yesterday, and it's happening today, why? Because, again, I could recognize the reason why people wanted to string me up. The situation now is that you and your hydra friend's arguments are legitimately flawed or

entirely

wrong and I'm trying to make it painfully obvious to you with aggressive behavior, which you say is discrediting, I guess. The only problem is that you take my efforts and translate it into even more *wrong* and I become

actually

ticked off and it's a neverending cycle.

Actually, scratch that, I think I realize why I've been so upset a-la "I'm fucking town". I don't think you're going to like it.



I also have a test tomorrow but I'll at the very least reply to things and post thoughts. The townreads are, surprise, town, and shouldn't be looked at (benmage MAYBE but there really are much much better options), Jason is solid town for what I said earlier, zden is obvious, kuribo is almost as obvious, camn and Kise both have compelling reasons to drop them (absta and full role respectively), and we're left with {Equinox, DeasVail, Nostredeus, ChannelDelibird}. Aside from buddying paranoia, I don't particularly want CDB lynched and that's not happening anyway. So... those three. My thoughts are scrambled at the moment so I'll save them until I've properly read the last few pages. All three of these are at least decent lynches. Definitely far from what the SAD lynch made me feel yesterday.

[BT]

Why is abstas clearing Jason again? Because he calls him town here: post 285 ??

No, not like that. I'll link this post again.

Actually maybe you're right on the maths... *shrugs*

Of course I am. Subtraction is addition with negative numbers.

[BT]

Not exactly following BT. Breakdown for me why it makes Jason town. I'm congested as fuck and concentration hurts.

THE FACTS: absta's first comment is that Jason's reaction to petapan's insult is "a town reaction to an insult". He makes sure it isn't too absolute by saying that it isn't easy to fake as scum. Then he explains it again when questioned by Cerulean. He replies to you by saying he commented on Jason for being a leading wagon. Finally, to quote, "Post #351 by SAD makes some sense. I was town-reading Jason for his gambit but this changed my mind."

absta essentially went out of his way (compared to the nothing he was doing otherwise) to elaborate on a town read on a buddy, only to essentially forget about it later. It doesn't seem like how a buddy would handle the read -- much more likely that he was taking Jason's post as an opportunity to say something smart while making sure to keep him open as an option if the wagon persists.

Bonus Content: Plessiez should say if they think #60 is a likely buddy comment based on absta's meta, because it doesn't read that way.

[BT]

Attempting to make this as to-the-point as possible. Intended for Cerulean and anyone keeping up with these arguments.

Reply to #2474:

And I refuse to assume BT is town

You refuse to read my posts, too.

What gives you the impression he's refusing to read your posts? This looks like you trying to discredit someone who has a scum read on you, which has been a favored tactic of yours and which is actually strengthening my scum read on you.

Answered to kuribo.

Don't see this as any kind of town tell. Why wouldn't scum-BT want to discredit votes on his partners wagon? Especially a tracker?

Why

would

the scumteam want to discredit votes on an even-night tracker, especially considering it was Death Fodder absta? Your logic works backwards here.

Exhibit A. No one knew that absta was death fodder, until he actually was death fodder. If it is possible that the scum team is small, then early bussing is unlikely. And your interactions in relation to absta look scummy as hell. For instance, you've made this case against TML (and for the record your case came after CDB's so you didn't get the wagon going as you later claim). What I find interesting is that you subtly throw suspicion on Absta but you don't do anything about it at all. In fact, you attack TML for daring to vote absta. Why was a vote on scum!absta a wasted vote?

My logic works fine, scum defend their buddies all the time especially if one's a pr. Your attempt to discredit my thoughts on that is scummy.

I noted this on D2 -- the scumteam killed Shadoweh without knowing that absta was going to die. Since absta was a main suspicion of her's (and people were def. going to analyze the reason behind her flip), camn was already up his throat and he was a forgettable 'this guy might be scum' slot in general, it all points to him being expendable.

It wasn't a subtle way of throwing suspicion more than it was a post I wanted people to analyze because it stood out.

It was a wasted vote because TML was sitting on it for a while doing nothing while commenting lightly on the big wagons. Aside from the occasional "guys, absta is worse than SD", there really wasn't anything there. It didn't look like he was trying to push absta's lynch more than he was simply showing he was paying attention by weakening the SD wagon like that.

Jason was a strong scum read for us day one, and he really hasn't done anything to read as town. The only thing that clears him is his gambit and the push that TGAH gave to him.

Hi there, I happen to be one of those people that made clear that there are absta-Jason connections that clear Jason, multiple times. I know you're being lazy with your scumread on me but this is ridiculous.

So? Do you want a cookie? Just because YOU think the absta quote clears Jason doesn't mean it actually does. Jason isn't behaving like town, has been coasting and continuing his mantra of lynch kuribo, which incidentally I find it really interesting that you attacked DV for going after his scum read SAD yesterday and still having you as a scum read because he was wrong yesterday in Post 2478 (which by the way has to be the oiliest post in the whole thread so congrats on that!) BUT you haven't said one thing about the fact that Jason pushed for SAD yesterday too, was wrong, and is not reassessing today. But, I guess it's more important to just discredit your attackers than it is to actually apply a similar expectation of reassessing reads to everyone especially when you're not the one in danger.

Considering I townread Jason and suspect DV (which you note in this post), it isn't surprising at all that I paid closer attention to DV's actions or outright missed some of Jason's.

I agree that Jason's play is beyond suboptimal but I also think that he's town.

I kind of expected people to automatically agree with me on Jason because it really did seem clear-cut to me. Can you tell me what you disagree with from these posts?

What did you mean to link to when you mentioned 'the oiliest post in the thread'?

Stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop.

You two are officially in time out and can not look at or speak to each other for one hour.

Note that I do think you're town -- the above is yet another quote to add to the collection, but I do think you're taking up kuribo's method of not paying attention to scumreads.

Uh-oh...are you telling me your town read of us is in danger too like you did DV? I might cry. (Empire already is, but we can keep that between us)

What was your purpose in even commenting on this? It looks like a throwaway comment to try to discredit an attacker some more and is especially so since it comes after we voted for you. That quote had not nyet nothing to do with me paying attention to a scum read. Quite the contrary, I wanted two of my townreads to stop bickering, because I think they're town and extended bickering gives scum a place to hide.

I meant that quote was a town post. The 'but' that comes afterwards confirms this (you're town, but you've gotta stop doing this! etcetera) though I understand why you got mixed up.

I already said that I literally don't remember the last time I townread DV. My stance in the post you're referring to is "have reason to think scum, but waffling because of lack of contribution to better base the read".

Camn - to answer your question: Nostredeus without a doubt, closely followed by Jason.

Why not DV here? Not that the other two aren't useless, but what's the thought process here?

I've made it clear that I can't follow Nostredeus' thought process, and if he's town I don't want him anywhere near LyLo. Quite frankly I can't tell if he's scum or really bad town and will lose no tears if he goes. Jason is someone I think is scummy, and don't want anywhere near LyLo either if he's town. I don't trust Jason to actually catch up on this thread nor do I trust him to get past his annoyance with a player to judge who scum really is; he's coasting and hasn't demonstrated an interest in actually contributing to this game. I mean all we have to do is see that the most he's done today is suggest a Kuribo lynch again.

Why not DV? Why DV is the better question. And you know you were full of bs in your response to Kuribo in Post 2439. You have stated a leaning town read on DV in the very post kuribo was responding too . And just so you know DV is not useless. He might waffle a bit and be unsure of his reads (but so am I a lot) but he's not useless. I've seen games where he has called most of the scum team day one, he just lacks the certainty to usually push it through. You trying to discredit him is really scummy. Besides, we're reading him as town. I think he's town and Empire's pretty decent at reading him and says he's town too, so that's a no go on DV.

Already explained that it was far from a leaning-town read. What made you think that in the first place, by the way? I was very clearly presenting arguments against DV.

This doesn't seem like a 'town, but can't get his shit together' game to me. He may be uncertain as both alignments (gonna trust you on this one, even though I don't think he was uncertain during Mafiastuck more than he was nonexistent), but his uncertainty touches one or two reads at a time -- I don't recall him having a solid set of reads anywhere during the game, and right now I'm pretty sure the only one he's pushing as scum is me. Uncertainty? Yes. Town failing to push things through? No. His low scope and general laziness in pushing his reads suggest scum, and no, I'm not basing this off of his recent inactivity -- he's been basically lurking for most of D3, his lacking post with arguments for my lynch being his only contribution.

I mean no offense, but from what I remember of your reads over the course of the game, the accuracy of your scumhunting in this game isn't stellar, the both of you. Explain to me why you both read DV as town.

Another question for DV when / if he replies to them:

This is scummy. This is trying to make it look like DV isn't answering questions that have been asked of him. I don't remember this happening, so it looks like mudslinging.

Fair enough, though I did get the impression he could have at least replied to -something- before disappearing for a few more days. I was pretty much showing my irritation, rather than mudslinging.

Other than the fact TGAH attacked Nost (which I'd been assuming meant Nost was probably not Police), I think Nost looks pretty awful.

Could you elaborate on this? CDB's "I don't see anything fake" is exactly the stance I took regarding Nost on D2 and it hasn't changed.

Interesting that now your position is wavering on Nost, but that's the subject of another post.

If memory serves, you expand on this in the next post, so I'll reply there. If not, I'll reply separately.

[BT]

And what do you, Cerulean and DV have in common? A QT, but besides that, none of you give me the impression that the current lynch possibility dangling above my slot is justified. During D2, I fully accepted the fact that I played sub-optimally and I compensated in every way I could, including volunteering to be lynched just so people like you would move on. Yet right now I'm still struggling to figure out what's making me a possible fallback option over others (

hello

DV,

Nost)

besides magical rainbow orgasms in that QT.

Could you be any more scummy?

Ehh?

You said it yourself -- my play had a part in making you doubt your read. Obviously this is referring to my end-of-D2 play which plenty of people thought was town. Why? Because people are telling under pressure. It's why you want to pressure people in the first place. You got to witness one of the most pathetic sagas in my mafia career, because I decided to literally scramble and make the most out of my slot before I was done for. What more do you need?

Oh yep you can. Everyone thought I was town when I acted like town when I was about to get lynched! How can you not see I was so town? Anyone halfway competent at this game knows how to "act like town" when about to be lynched, and acting as if that could not have come from scum doing what he had to do is *headdesk* worthy. The very fact that you can describe why people wavered on you at the end of yesterday demonstrates that you understand very well what to do to get people not to vote you and make them think you're town.

This is where I explain what I meant when I said I think I figured out the reason I'm so adamant on my townieness -- I'm used to playing with people who know my meta. In the post you're referring to, I pointed out that I was way to -out there- to be scum, because it's actually a strong meta point. I'm generally really calculated as scum, but at the end of D2 I was... just... spontaneous, way too spontaneous than what I'm possibly able to fake as scum. Unfortunately, the people who know my meta well are dead, but this should basically explain that part of the post you're talking about.

In other news, Plessiez's #2443 is excellent. Deadline isn't far away and I'm gonna be busy for the next few days but I do want to reanalyze Nost and compare with TML/Equinox now. They're probably not scum together, at any rate.

And you can be even scummier. I get reassessing reads. But let's look at how many times you defend Nost. In fact, yesterday, you basically were calling Sotty scum for their push on Nost. And now, now, that you see the equinox wagon falling apart and your wagon rising again, suddenly it's time to re-read Nost because you haven't really read him . Hmm... you admitted to Zdenek that you don't really pay attention to your buddies posts would you say you're treating Nost like a buddy? You've either been white-knighting him in a really weird way or protecting your partner, and your shift to now needing to read him because Pless made an excellent case looks scummy and opportunistic as fuck. Pless isn't as easy to attack as Sotty, huh?

Here we are. I was paranoid over sotty's slot at the time and Plessiez is a major townread. Though, yes, I will admit that I never

properly, thoroughly

reread Nost, which explains why I cited "he feels town / he doesn't feel scum" in every one of those posts. When I said the post was excellent, I meant that it was excellent -- it showed some convincingly weird behavior that warrants a better look-out for the slot.

I disagree with "The Equinox wagon falling apart" -- CDB, Pless, Nost and I have basically

been

the wagon all day, and none of us lost interest.

[BT]

Now, if Tammy thought I was tunneling on town, she'd tell me so. DV might not, but Tammy and Empire certainly would. And they damn sure wouldn't do the legwork to help me make a case that's just going to look weak.

I wanted to reply to this earlier. No, she wouldn't, because she's just as far into this as you are. The only one in there to right both of your wrongs is DV, but he just floated over to match your PoV and has now completed a full D3 lurk.

[BT]

So yes, I do think DV is scum, the only one in the QT. I welcome both of you and Cerulean to convince me otherwise.

[BT]

Zdenek, Kise, where do you stand at the moment?

[BT]

TBH I responded to a lot of things there and there are some TML/DV suspicions inbetween. It's worth a skim over at worst.

In regards to your vote.

[BT]

It's less than two days to deadline, so yeah.

[BT]

I also don't believe there's much evidence that the SAD wagon won out over the BT wagon because of a push by scum: the key people who switched were CDB, who we have a weak but strengthening town-read on, and sotty, who's already flipped town. So, yeah, Equinox is the better lynch, I think.

I was going to say something like this when I entered D3 -- that the last-minute votes didn't seem scum-motivated despite my paranoia over scum preferring to lynch SAD. CDB has progressively seemed like town ever since.

[BT]

By the way, lynch priority is Equinox > DV > Nostredeus > {CDB, Kise} > {camn, Jason} > Benmage > {Cerulean, Plessiezarus, kuribo} > Zdenek.

[BT]

No you might not mean to offend, but you do mean to discredit. And this is where I can't break away from a scum read on you, and if you are on the off chance town, you should stop doing things like this because you've been doing this all game. You've set out to discredit and undermine anyone who has suspected you and that's scummy. You've done it to me, kuribo, dv, Sotty yesterday...and your statement that you were paranoid of Sotty yesterday reads pretty much bs today especially since you say you haven't reread Nostredeus. If you hadn't properly read him then why were you attacking Sotty for attacking nost yesterday?

Paranoid, as in to sum up the way I treated sottyrulez during the

entirety

of D2. I went from "I'm gonna assume he's town" to "look at the scum" and back so many times I can't keep count. I attacked him, not for reading Nost the way he did, but because it seemed opportunistic to me. Me getting a town feel from Nost's D1 was a factor, yes, but not the catalyst.[/quote]

It's almost like you read my response about Dan saying that to me and me thinking it's a good tactic to use against me because I have a tendency to doubt myself and my reads and figured you'd use it against me as well.

I don't think I actually read that part of your exchange.

But, looking back at the people who've flipped so far and my reads on them, I feel pretty good about my reads so far.

What are you referring to here?

Off the back of my head, you were on Jason and kuribo for a while (like myself, I suppose) and then switched to suspecting me until now.

I said that thing about your reads more because of the DV thing -- I

would

like to know why you read him as town.

P-Edit:

By the way, lynch priority is Equinox > DV > Nostredeus > {CDB, Kise} > {camn, Jason} > Benmage > {Cerulean, Plessiezarus, kuribo} > Zdenek.

Why do you have Jason listed before benmage or us if you think that absta interaction clears Jason?

I regret using 'clear' there, but I really do think it's a very solid interaction. That said, again, that's all I have. I'm solid about your / Pless's play being town and I treat that as stronger than interactions.

[BT]

I'll be back in more than 12 hours. It's 1:00 in the morning.

[BT]

Oh, right, I'll just say that I think I did manage to cool off a bit. It shows in the last page, I think?

[BT]

You're pretty obviously saying whatever it takes to save your own skin. DV's not getting lynched today, so you may as well forget it. And you get awesome points for trying to push his lynch while he's VLA and can't defend himself.

I'm obviously not trying to push his lynch today.

Attempting to make this as to-the-point as possible. [...]

Congratulations on failing horribly!

Trust me, that could have been longer.

Equinox, what changed between this post and your current stance in regards to my lynch?

kuribo, why is DV town?

[BT]

Openness can go both ways. Can you give examples? If they're from the thread, link to posts.

[BT]

Yeah I ain't giving you shit except a one way ticket to hell

It would help the rest of the town too, you know, not just me.

Does BT's attitude in this game compare unfavourably to games in which he's been mislynched as town? Is it unlike how he reacts to being pressured normally?

They have no way of knowing that. The only game on this site where I was town and mislynched is Mirco 31, but everyone lurked that game, including myself. Looking at my games off-site... the last time I was mislynched as town was 9 months ago. Expect outdated meta.

[BT]

Not on this site. This one was recent but fairly short, not to mention I subbed out halfway. This was recent-ish. These two, a bit less. (I was Soga / Tojiko, now Den-O in that one game.)

[BT]

Oh, dang. I don't remember anything like that.

Like I said earlier, I'm calculated -- I have to always know that my suspicions are safe and I usually plan things in advance. I guess for that reason I'm not the type of scum player to make really bold plays or drop reads when it's detrimental. I want to say that I'm more likely to stick to my reads / enter tunnelvision as scum but I'm actually really persistent as town too, so, uh, hmm. I think I will generally prefer to be anti-town when I can get away with it somewhat.

[BT]

NSFW

[BT]

Your "100% benmage is town" line is one of the reasons that made me think he was town. By the way.