Mafia with the Quickness 2 GAME OVER!

[Sugoku Sugoi]

scum daytalk isn't that scary and getting rid of the encryptors is entirely pointless and only serves to waste lynches. the rest of them shouldn't claim either bc all it does is tell scum who not to kill

SKrew is town for pointing it out and Desp is town for making waves early - in the game I played with scum Desp he did a lot and tried to look town, but didn't actually do much of anything. F-16 agrees on SKrew town but wants to meta him to be sure.

I liked SAD's 105.

I fucking hate Juls so far. when Desp claimed she first took the easiest and most opportunistic stance for scum to take (lynch it) and then backed off once everyone else did.

vote: Juls

I also dislike Saint. the entirety of his posting is about Desp's claim and when Desp first claimed he also jumped for the opportunity to lynch him.

we'll sign if it's necessary, but it should be rly obvious who is who

[Sugoku Sugoi]

hi Marquis <3

what's your read on Juls?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

also scum neighborizer is a thing that exists (especially if this was meant as a normal game--only so many normal scum roles to choose from)

you're aware Marquis claimed town neighborizer right

given your role I'd expect there to be at least some chance there's both town and scum neighborizers in this game

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I just said even if they are scum we can benefit from it. They can't lie about neighborizing someone they didn't say they neighborized because the other people in the neighborhood would know. If they claim to neighborize someone and they aren't in the neighborhood then that would be another red flag.

also I disagree with this. for there to be an actual town neighborhood, scum has to recruit 2 townies, which means we can't bother lynching them till D3. it's entirely pointless to wait just because "lol neighborizer".

not to mention they can set up WIFOM by recruiting their partner

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I think I know what Oversoul is doing and he's prob town for it

I liked Marquis's reaction to Juls

F-16 and I agree on SKrew, Desp, and SAD as town.

@mollie:

why is SAD scum?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

beast is saying we can benefit from a neighborizer even if they're scum bc they can open up another line of communcation for town to use

however, for that to have any benefit, there have to be at least 2 townies in the neighborhood after lynching the neighborizer. which means the neighborizer has to survive 2 nights, hence we couldn't lynch them till D3 at earliest. there's no reason to bother doing that especially when there's almost certainly at least one town neighborizer in the game

so did julz

what do you think of THAT

atm I'm thinking both of them are telling the truth about being neighborizers, but given Desp's encryptor role there's probably at least one scum neighborizer and one town neighborizer in the setup

and the way Marquis reacted to it looked town. it's about what I'd do if I had that role and someone else claimed it in this setup

[Sugoku Sugoi]

pedit pie what are you talking about

?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

also since juls claimed i've been reconsidering the there-is-only-one-encryptor idea since clearly there are duplicate powers in this game and they probably all revolve around talking power (which makes sense for a fast/quickness game). i really don't want to think about setup spec-ing role power alignments right now though

-marquis

pedit @ ?, where you said i claimed town neighborizer, like no shit we all know that or what specifically were you pointing out about that

Desp didn't seem aware there were multiple neighborizers in this game

unless you meant smth else?

Why hasn't F-16 mentioned me at all?

idk. I'll ask him

he's been busy reading the dead/mafia QTs from tales of you and hasn't had time to post in here yet

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Also, if you could get F-16 in here and posting and not just proxying crap that would be super sweet!

kk ~

I'm seriously thinking about replacing out. Everyone seems to know the heads of the hydras and it's all very confusing to me. I have to keep looking at the main post. Like who the hell is pie? And talking about the other head of your hydras is making me confused too.

I'm one of the heads in this hydra along with F-16_Fighting_Falcon

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@Juls:

So basically the people voting me are voting me because changing my opinion is scummy? Alrighty then, I will probably VERY scummy this whole game then.

I feel misrepped here. I'm voting you bc your actions in response to Desp are textbook scum flow-going. when Desp first claimed you took the easiest stance for scum to take at that time (lynch it) and then when everyone backed off him you followed.

given the timing, it's a very real possibility you're scum flow-going and it's p much the best lead I have so far. and the rest of your posts don't give me anything to second guess that read

I decided that yeah I could take one for the team and not have day talk.

Taking one for the team.

Good on you.

what does bolded mean?

bc I thought this was you saying it was a positive thing Desp was taking one for the team, and I don't get how it applies to you. I get the feeling you just made it up after the fact

And then I was in the weeds because I voiced an unpopular opinion while thinking I was taking a selfless stance.

I didn't like this either. wanting to lynch Desp was hardly an "unpopular opinion" - there were def quite a few other ppl who took that stance. and I get the feeling she's bringing this up to deflect as opposed to refuting the argument against her

[Sugoku Sugoi]

pedit @ sugoku [pie], desp thought there were multiple encryptors because of how his role pm was worded and suddenly everyone believed it and suddenly after we said "no that's dumb" everyone seemed to go "oh ok never mind" and now i'm thinking i might be wrong because what does multiple neighborizers imply about the possibility of multiple encryptors like doubling up the roles?

I'm p sure there are both multiple neighborizers and multiple encryptors. it makes a lot of sense to have a bunch of neighborhoods given the encryptor role, and it makes sense for there to me multiple encryptors based on what Desp said

I'm still not sure what your point is. mb I need to reread

I'm not great at reading desperado especially after defending him for stupid reasons day one of reckoning and mostly scum reading him in Tales of recently. I feel like I learned something from recent games though, but I won't have Nacho to back me up or tell me I'm dumb I don't think until this day is over. But I think town.

fwiw I'm townreading Desp too and this is coming off a game where Desp just completely owned me as scum. he's making a lot of waves early on, while in that game he posted a lot without actually doing much. I'm trying to move away from lolmeta, but I believe there's a significant differences in mindset between his approach in his scumgame and the way he's went about his recent towngames

he made a lot of waves in NY169 (re: nightmare scumteam) and tales of you too

[Sugoku Sugoi]

it sounds in that post like juls is confirming desp as town?? or it feels like a scumslip of some sort

actually this is a good point

encryptor is generally a scum role. but Juls immediately assumed Desp was town, before he claimed the specifics of what his role did, while at the same time not remembering the encryptor role

however, if Juls was scum she would know Desp is town and since there's prob a scum encryptor she would also know what the role did

brb checking smth

[Sugoku Sugoi]

yup. so you agree that one of them is likely scum, yeah?

there's a good chance there's another neighborizer out there and if there is and it's a scum neighborizer there wouldn't be much of a reason for it to claim it at this point

however, based on my reads I feel Juls is likely scum

[Sugoku Sugoi]

while at the same time not remembering the encryptor role

rereading and this part was false - I think I got her confused with someone else

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Second, this post is very scummy. I hate words like "it feels like" and the extra triple question marks.

why is that scummy? also, no response to the rest of my case on you?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

there's a good chance there's another neighborizer out there and if there is and it's a scum neighborizer there wouldn't be much of a reason for it to claim it at this point

if they're both town and the 3rd neighborizer doesn't claim now then he never gets to use his power so that sounds like a win to me.

I don't understand your point here. why wouldn't the 3rd neighborizer get to use his power?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

although I have a scum read on Juls I think there's at least some chance all the neighborizers in this game are town. and on the other hand, if one of {Juls, Feu} is scum, I'd consider the 3rd neighborizer as practically an IC down the road.

overall I think it's prob better if, if there is another neighborizer, they don't claim right now

[Sugoku Sugoi]

What exactly would you like me to say to it? I admitted the way I went about it probably looked bad from the outside. I can't change that now. It is what it is. So I guess my "response" to you is yep, I can see where you might have seen me as scum. That doesn't make you correct, it just means my opinion was wrong and it changed.

that doesn't have anything to do with my point

first off, you tried to write all the votes on you off as "changing your opinion" - however, my vote on you had nothing to do with that. my vote on you was because it felt like you were scum going with the flow, and I got the feeling you were misrep'ing it otherwise.

second, rather than refuting ppl's arguments against you, you tried to bring up how selfless you were taking a stance that was "unpopular", which wasn't even true to begin with since several ppl expressed interest in lynching Desp at first.

explain both of those plz. and why did you refer to your stance on Desp as unpopular?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Oh god, how many pages am I going to wake up to each morning.

You signed up for a game with 4 day deadlines. You should be expecting plenty of thread explosions. Why does it strike you as unusual?

Dayne v Juls feels town v town to me.

Why?

Daytalk can be very powerful in good hands, not saying I want to lynch Desp or I'm even completely sure he's not reaction testing or something but.. meh, daytalk utilised properly can be good.

This is incredibly non-committal and feels like a load of hedging. Do you or do you not want to lynch Desp?

VOTE: SleepyKrew

Posting:Content ratio too high

This is a pretty terrible vote. Why does SleepyKrew's posting feel like noise to you?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Still catching up. I skimmed through some of the later posts though. Guess my read on you.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Still catching up. I skimmed through some of the later posts though. Guess my read on you.

Well, I mean we're town, so your read is we're town.

You'd be right. I'll explain more of my reads when I catch up fully, sync with Pie and write up a massive list of reads. The one I disagree with you is JasonT1981. I have a few concerns that his play is a lot different from Z-Mafia.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I am about to crash. I'll probably finish catching up tomorrow.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I think not_mafia is scum (F-16 agrees with me although he's still not done catching up)

vote: not_mafia

first off

I am aware of the semi-hipocrisy in the post but the theory talk is only in the first half of the post. I was saying my final words on the theory stuff and after that trying to shift the topic back on track

at this point you only had 4 posts:

Spoiler: all Not_Mafia content up to here

Oh god, how many pages am I going to wake up to each morning.

Dayne v Juls feels town v town to me. Daytalk can be very powerful in good hands, not saying I want to lynch Desp or I'm even completely sure he's not reaction testing or something but.. meh, daytalk utilised properly can be good.

VOTE: SleepyKrew

Posting:Content ratio too high

PEDIT: oh lord like a dozen posts popping up

@Feu et Vol It's not that I find him annoying (I don't), it's a noise to signal thing

@Helium I can't make head nor tail of that post about Desp's self vote, were you calling his vote stupid or counter-productive or what?

Here's a game where scum used daytalk well throughout and it was probably (one of) the main factor(s) behind their win.

Anyway I feel like we're just getting in to theory discussion (the strength of daytalk isn't irrelevant but I don't think that's the lynch should be dependent on) when the actual game-related discussion is about whether we should lynch Desp, which I'd say a resounding no to at this juncture because despite my opinion on daytalk the actual implication of his role is ambiguous.

I am aware of the semi-hipocrisy in the post but the theory talk is only in the first half of the post. I was saying my final words on the theory stuff and after that trying to shift the topic back on track

p much all of these are related to daytalk. if you legitimately wanted to "shift the topic back on track",

why aren't you actually talking about anything else besides daytalk?

like if you were interested in that to the point you wanted to shift the conversation back to it, I'd expect you to be more involved in the rest of the discussion. but you only gave a few reads with minimal explanation and you aren't even interacting with anyone. it feels like you're just trying to look busy by making comments on daytalk without any intent to actually solve the game.

Because at that point he hadn't really posted any content, just a bunch of questions.

I still lean town on Juls by the timing of her claim and because I don't see how this Hydra talk stuff is alignment indicative so I feel like she's just being backed in to a corner over nothing, I don't like the read on Feu Et Vol but I can also see it coming from someone who doesn't know them. Helium I see jumping on everyone and I don't think they're actually reading the posts they're attacking people for. The not liking entrances thing is mutual with slice of life, both head's entrance looked quite forced to me

VOTE: Helium

VOTE: Juls

Antihero's histrionics aside, I'm not liking Juls' "You're scum so you're using hydra dissonance as a scum tactic". Should really be the other way around.

this is scummy as fuck. helium never actually answered this point so why switch? is it bc helium started to make a push back on you after you started pushing them? ~

the reason he switched onto Juls was sketchy as fuck - as it is, it feels like he's taking advantage of the massive shitstorm between Juls and helium by going with the flow wherever he thinks it's comfortable.


I'm getting cold feet about Juls scum. there were some p genuine sounding notes down the road in response to the wagon on her and I like the conviction in her helium push. in the meantime, anyone up for a not_mafia wagon?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@mastin:

I find it hard to believe you're townreading me based on one post. where did that townread come from?

I liked Hoopla's observations about Oversoul (640) and it's p much in line with my thoughts.

based on yesterday, I feel like Feu, Tammy, and possibly helium are town

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@SAD, SKrew:[/post] what are your thoughts on not_mafia?

think we could go for a not_mafia wagon?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

fuck

@SAD, SKrew:

what are your thoughts on not_mafia?

think we could go for a not_mafia wagon?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

who are you interested in lynching?

and I don't think I get the scumslip re: SAD. can you explain it again plz

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Also, sugofalcon, why are you asking SAD what he thinks of not_mafia when I've already asked him that question, he's already answered it and someone else has already commented on his response and he's responded to taht.

SAD and SKrew were the 2 ppl who were here and I had townreads on both of them, so I asked them first

I'm not fully reading everything and I skimmed most of what I missed. if he answered it already I missed it

[Sugoku Sugoi]

It's not as damning as I thought it was. I'm gonna talk to SAD for a bit about.
Right now I want Juls or jason lynched, probably also SAD. There are a couple other scumfucks I want to talk to more and obviously some people that I want vigged hard

why is Jason scum?

what do you think of Juls' helium push? that's the main thing making me think she might be town atm (and the way she blew up earlier, but I remember you said you think that's null)

[Sugoku Sugoi]

actually the more I read the way Juls early claimed, the more I think it's prob town

whenever I'm a PR and I have a wagon on me, I always feel like early claiming. bc I hate hate hate when town wastes a bunch of time pushing me, when I'm going to end up claiming PR anyway - it's a bunch of time spent accomplishing nothing.

this is rly important bc in this game, we only get 5 days at most and we absolutely need all the time we can get - so I think the way she claimed makes a shitton of sense coming from that mindset

it's heavily WIFOM, but it's not smth I've ever seen scum fake. I'd like to hear thoughts on this

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Going to catch up for real now that I have a bit of time. But really quick Tammy, all posts today have been Pieguyn so far, not me.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

i thought you disagreed with my Jason town read?

yeah but I wanted to know SKrew's reasoning for it

F-16 has a meta scumread on him. I don't have any thoughts on him yet - he has a few posts but I don't remember anything he did

[Sugoku Sugoi]

i am lurking because lurking is safe.

is this you MS?

if so, you're breaking my heart. where have you been the whole game? I know we can clean house and I know you can be rly obvtown when you're town. what are your thoughts on the game so far?

if not get MS the hell in here. his lack of presence is worrying me a lot

[Sugoku Sugoi]

kk

he's already read TM2012 - overall, he feels Jason is being really passive and in particular re: his push on SKrew he wasn't rly pushing him and was being passive about it, whereas as town he's more aggressive and stubborn. I assume he'll explain it further when he's done catching up

fuck

[Sugoku Sugoi]

omg hi pieguy <3

this game is really uninteresting atm im just skimming

practically "no comments" so i dont want to get into unnecessary trouble so i lurk lalala

you don't have any reads at all? 0.0

[Sugoku Sugoi]

do you usually do this when you don't have anything to say?

I generally remember you being p active in pushing ppl and getting reads - on the other hand, trying to stay out of trouble seems very unlike you given what I know of you

tell me what your thoughts are so far. what do you think of my case on not_mafia? 685

[Sugoku Sugoi]

julztown: I know what is like to feel left out cos sometimes I feel that way too. I also don't know what to do when some1 meltsdown in the way that she did.

yeah but juls' "wahh i'm not in the cool kids club" didn't sound genuine whatsoever

compare her reaction to me in maniacal and come back and vote her please

Quoting this so I get back to it once I finish reading.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Falconguru

I love it when you miss me that much. Here's a cool song to entertain yourself with while I catch up.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Hey Desp, while you are here, why did you self-vote in your opening post? Were you gambiting or seriously wanted to be lynched?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

that's a kinda snoozy question.

That's the one thing that bugged me about him. Pie and I both feel that he is town on the whole but I can't get behind why he genuinely thought getting himself lynched was going to be helpful to town. It isn't implausible for scum to ask to be lynched because it most likely won't go through anyways.

i did and still do think i should die because every possible iteration of the scum team with a playerlist like this would benefit from daytalk and taking that away is worth more than even my best town effort imo

Why let them have a mislynch on you just to eliminate day talk abilities?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

You're coming off a game in which I wanted to be lynched because I thought it would benefit town if I was, so I'm not sure why it seems so odd for you.

I mean I think it would be kind of odd for desperado to make that his day one play as scum? I can't see him doing it so that people won't be parnaoid for why he's still alive because that's not something I think he'd worry about or anyone would worry about which would be the only reason to make that claim. I've seen a game with a town encryptor, so yeah, I don't know, I'll let Nacho make the final decision on desperado if he shows up, but I have him as town until he tells me I'm wrong.

It seemed odd because Desperado doesn't strike me as the kind of player who would pass up on the chance to lynch scum in his place. And if he is seen as a threat and nk'd, scum lose daytalk and that's awesome. The situation with you was different. I still don't agree that lynching you as opposed to Penguin in Tales was beneficial to town. It also came much later on in the game when you were frustrated and tired. Desp opening up with a lynch me was a lot different than that.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Desp, what are your reads looking like at this point?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Why isn't Imperium in it? Also, what is your read on Not_Mafia?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

To be fair, I spent quite a ton of time telling JSU hydra that you were town and they basically went with my read.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Okay, finally got caught up. I won't do an extensive list of reads right now since Pie has just gone off to bed but tomorrow, we'll explain all of our reads in detail. In a nutshell, I'm reading Imperium as obvtown (do I even need to explain this)? Helium is town and the wagon on them is pretty bad. I get why some people may vote them but the vote that bugged me the most is Hoopla's. Mollie has this way of making her alignment really obvious and I am surprised that a player like Hoopla couldn't see this. I also completely agree with Antihero on his push on Juls although I am null om Juls and don't have a read either way, I do feel that Antihero's posts came across as incredibly reasonable and townish. I feel Bert's more recent posts have been extremely town and I'd be quite surprised if PN flipped scum here. Desperado's assessment of Not_Mafia feels town as well and I agree that scum-Desp would probably have written Tammy off as town. Fue Et Vol, SleepyKrew, and Arthur feel town as well. I still want to lynch Not_Mafia. Pie and I both have concerns about SaintK. As for Jason, I'm going to point out why I found him suspicious in my next post. Pie really likes Hoopla's post 640 about Oversoul and is townreading both Hoopla and Oversoul. I am not sure I'm sold on that though. Tl;dr list, (I'll post reasons for all of these tomorrow after refining my null reads):

Town (S->W)

: Imperium, Helium3, Perpetual Nonsense, Fue Et Vol, Desperado, Ser Arthur Dayne, SleepyKrew

Null

: Juls, Slice of Life, Speedy Saki, Slandaar,Nobody Special, Nero Cain, Hoopla, Oversoul

Scum (S->W)

: SaintKerrigan, JasonT1981, Not_Mafia

[Sugoku Sugoi]

The scum list should be inverted. Not_Mafia is our strongest scumread.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Okay, here are some posts from Z-Mafia where Jason was town:

Spoiler: Jason-Towngame 1

Subject: Micro 284: Z mafia (Game Over!)

Does Eagle have to post again before I change a vote? no, I had my eye on him, and in review he comes across scummier than Om

that's your answer.

No, the transition from a IGMEOY to a vote.

Again, so what? Again I ask, do you have to post again before I change my vote?

stop clutching at straws, scumboy.

You're OTT reactions are all I need to justify my vote... not that I needed to justify it to you anyway.

Suck it up, and deal with it.

Does Eagle have to post again before I change a vote? no, I had my eye on him, and in review he comes across scummier than Om

that's your answer.

So, why did you review ?

Also, I still don't get how we shouldn't put logic at speed wagon RVS.

Yea, I am not going to answer anymore questions on my vote... i voted.. get over it. My vote was on Om, who I did press a little, but BaldEagle went lolscum

A speed wagon is exactly that, a speed wagon. no logic needed. It is to press someone to see how well they do under pressure. Applying logic to it takes away, and derails the pressure, reaction is always the best thing to see... it took away from that by trying to apply logic to it.

Suck it up, I am not answering anymore on it.

Yes, you have to wait for me to post. You just don't go from "ooh, i got my eye on you" to *votes* without anything from me. Also I think you realized that you screwed up your vote on me, so now you are like "IM NOT TALKING ABOUT IT ANYMORE".

.

Dogs bollocks I have to wait for you to post again before I make a vote. My I'm not talking about it anymore is not because I screwed up my vote... I like my vote as much as I did when I made it... It is more because you are clutching to BS straws. Now suck it up.

Yes, you can go from IGMEOY to vote....

I'll humor you because I am feeling happy tonight.....WHY do I need to wait for you to post again before I vote?

Also, I don't like how RC is trying to add heat to my wagon. He's like "OH LOOK GUYS, LOOK WHAT HE DID!!!" And everyone is like "Oh dang, *votes*.

You're clearly out of your depth playing Mafia, sorry. That's how the game works... you push your wagon to others, adding to your case or the 'heat' on the voted person... and others will vote if they agree.

RC simply was pushing his case... thats not scummy... thats not 'not to like'

That's mafia, Baby!!

In each of those posts, his scumhunting comes across as genuine, he feels excited at catching scum, he is direct, aggressive, and stubborn.

Here's another towngame:

Spoiler: Jason Towngame 2

Subject: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

VOTE: Rapidcanyon

Thoughts?

My thoughts on this are quite simple.

Why would you self vote, and ask people their thoughts on it, which all in all is pretty worthless and completely avoid giving your thoughts as to what was already a pretty big topic of discussion going on it the game at the time of your post?

you ask for thoughts on something stupid, yet fail to give your thoughts on anything serious.

And that is my thoughts.

VOTE: rapidcanyon

Line of inquiry? The ship sinks. Thats how titanic ends. If you've seen it once you've seen it a million times. Whats he going to get out of rc's selfvote and going 'thoughts'... Jason didn't give an inquisition he just voted. Whats RC going to say?

What makes selfvoting scummy in the rvs? Jason will go, gee I don't know.

End of story. Lets get to the meat of the game. Jasons vote sucked. Any inquiry on selfvoting will suck.

In everygame people answer stupid questions not directed at them. THEY question UNEXPLAINED votes on people who aren't voting them. You should have seen this a million times.... Helll even KK had to be told by Yates to stop answering for Jason, because Yates was waiting for a specific response.
)

Ben, stop.. just stop talking.

Refering to the bolded... I am not questioning the self vote as such.

I am questioning why he chose to try to bring all discussion about himself about his selfvoting and wanting us all to discuss it when he did not even discuss what was a pretty big talking issue in the game by this stage.

that is what I am saying.

I am not voting for him because he self voted. No where have I said this.

It never fails to annoy me how people can not understand what is in plain, english text. Sometimes I am thinking I am speaking some dead language and all people hear is background noise like a distant ghost or something not understanding what is being said fully. Just picking up on small things and not the big picture.

Please read, and re-read before posting. I do not wish to bore myself to death again trying to correct people about what I said.

Looking primarily at the tone of his posts, there is a feeling that he knows he is right and he approaches suspicion on him very aggressively.

Overall, the phrasing he uses as town has a feel that he actually caught scum. Ex: "Dog Bollocks I need to wait for you to post" etc.

Looking at his scumgame:

Spoiler: Jason Scumgame 1

Subject: TM2012 - Closed Normal(Over!)

forced how? you asked a question... i replied. Grey is town. I don't see him as scum.

I've got null-town on Grey and IAm.

I can't find a train that'll take me to my destination yet, so I think I'll hop on this one for now, its goin to good places.

unvote, vote haylen

this worries me, he has no reads but will hop onto a wagon.. this seems like scum jumping onto anything not really caring what way it goes... he unvotes then does not mention Haylen again as I can see, until this

Lets summarize this.

Haylen is trying to convince me that I can't read her.

With her vote on me.

Good enough for me. Back on the original choochoo.

vote haylen

A rather weak jump onto the wagon again.

however, in between all this does this

Don't think Grey is scum Haylen.

I like

vote Uberninja

Flashy GIFs are pretty but thats about all they do for me.

jumping on a popular wagon again, as steam is being put on UberNinja who is now on 3 votes...

band wagon jumper scum

vote:Slaxx

@Jason: It felt forced, like you had to force out your scumreads as if you didn't have any at all.

You asked, I answered... how does that seem forced out of me?

I'm still confused as to how that makes me scum.

it doesnt make you scum, it just means you are someone I would look more into if we do get a lynch on Capt and she flips scum.

As I said, there are quite a few before you I would consider/want the lynch of.... if it had not been from that comment, from my no 1 scum read then yes, you probably would be in the town group.

He comes across as more hesitant and nervous and lacks bite to his pushes. His posts in this game feel a lot more like his scum posting although I'm not massively sure.

Spoiler: Jason's posts in this game

VOTE: Speedy Saki
You can all thank me later

heh heh heh

Early bussing... if Saki flips scum... I''m coming for you, baby!!

This came across as fairly natural and is actually one of the things that makes me question my read.

It won't cut of the threat, no.. you are rght, SK. However it will disable their ability to day talk, which is vital to stratagy

Please don't say SK
Why so confident there is only one encryptor?
Why are you willing to kill a townie just to maybe get rid of daytalk instead of doing some scumhunting?

I'm not confident of one... nor have I ever said there might be only one, if you read my post 58

Desp - can you go into anymore detail on your PM without breaking rules?

By implying multiple encryptors, I am assuming multiball scum?

I actually float the idea of more than one, and am following up with questions about it...

Why are you so unwilling to cut of what could be a vital scum advantage of having scum talk? That's why I would be for the encryptor lynch, as it hurts scum long term in not being able to talk during the day and talk as each scanario unfolds.

Here he corrects SleepyKrew on a misinterpretation but tonally he seems unfazed. I think Jason as town would react more aggressively to this.

Well? Share with the class what results this brilliant fishing brought?

Nothing.... because you butted in. :/ It was worth a try... wasn't guaranteed a result but was trying something anyway

The way he shows his annoyance here also feels different from his towngames.

It won't cut of the threat, no.. you are rght, SK. However it will disable their ability to day talk, which is vital to stratagy

Please don't say SK
Why so confident there is only one encryptor?
Why are you willing to kill a townie just to maybe get rid of daytalk instead of doing some scumhunting?

I'm not confident of one... nor have I ever said there might be only one, if you read my post 58

Desp - can you go into anymore detail on your PM without breaking rules?

By implying multiple encryptors, I am assuming multiball scum?

I actually float the idea of more than one, and am following up with questions about it...

Why are you so unwilling to cut of what could be a vital scum advantage of having scum talk? That's why I would be for the encryptor lynch, as it hurts scum long term in not being able to talk during the day and talk as each scanario unfolds.

So if two or three people said "I'm a town encryptor", you'd want them all dead rather than doing scumhunting?

Now you're just putting words in my mouth

Here too, it feels more defensive than aggressive. Compared to say "Dog bollocks I said I wanted all encryptors dead" or similarly aggressively stances. Well, I obviously don't expect him to word it similarly but I feel the response is lacking the bite that is present in his towngames.

Am I scum or misguided town? What did you really mean?
These are things you would have answered if you were town

I have you leaning scum, but not enough for a vote. I think you know full well what I meant though.Do you not agree that strategically it makes sense to cut scums day talk? My scum thought on you really is because you seem to be closed to cutting scum day talk.

I feel the same hesitation is scumreading SK. I get if he doesn't have a scumread but I don't like the "SKrew is scum but not enough to vote him."

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Also, Tammy I haven't gone over the Wire yet and I'll probably do it tomorrow but let me know your thoughts so far. Also, elaborate on your townread a little bit if you could, please.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Jason, when you get back into the game, can you provide a list of your reads with reasons? Also, you vote Helium in Post 472 for changing their opinion on Slice of Life and not backing it up. Why do you feel that it is scummy?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

fuck my ass

re: Juls pushing hydra dissonance as an argument - I actually think the argument looks town although I disagree w/ it. it is very possible to use hydra advantage to your complete advantage as scum - in tit for tat, Varsoon and I as scum used hydra dissonance fucking amazingly. our "reads" were completely opposite each others, we never bothered to sync (which no one even picked up on), and as a result of that we were able to bullshit whatever vote we wanted without taking any heat for it.

I disagree with her pulling up that one line where anti deferred to mollie and having the entire argument come from that bc that alone is not enough to deduce a hydra is scum using dissonance to hide, but I can def see the concern here coming from a town POV, especially from someone who hasn't played in a hydra and hasn't yet realized it's impossible to actually have a hydra that agrees on every single post they make. the conviction in the rest of her mollie push is also town on a gut level and her breakdown was also town.

I didn't like Saint's 941. at the end of the day it accomplishes nothing and all I get is that he's trying to buddy both Juls and Tammy at the same time.

Jason's 950 is terrible. the first line

The 2 votes on Shos.. do you think his opening line 'also, damnit, I wanted to replace to scumslot' was over compensating for actually replacing into a scumslot?

reads as scum looking for an easy out onto the wagon. his stance re: Juls is a massive fencesit, the way he left in the possibility of Juls being "caught scum" doesn't resonate at all, and he doesn't explain exactly why he felt it might not be genuine.

@Jason:

which Juls posts in particular read as fake?

I also don't like how Saint is jumping onto SS counterwagon when the not_mafia wagon is building up, but that should wait till later

atm I think there's a good chance SS is town. MS's response to me checks out on a gut level and if I've seen one thing so far, it's that htis game has had a ridiculous way of making ppl feel behind and completely unable to get reads - so gun to the head I'd put MS response to me on the town side and I far prefer to give him room to obvtown himself for the time being.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Adding onto what Pie was saying, I actually think Jason was going after easy targets with the Speedy Saki vote and the fencesit on Juls. I thought of what Tammy was saying about how Jason as scum goes after easy targets and him not going after Arthur felt town. But then, there are so many easier targets than Arthur and I don't get why he would go after Arthur in particular as scum. He didn't interact with him and maybe never thought to push him.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

None of my posts afterwards have been on daytalk, I can't exactly retroactively change discussion. And the times I was able to be active it was largely Helum and Juls tiff and I had no interest in wading in to a screaming match.

this is bullshit. helium vs. Juls didn't happen until after those 4 posts.

and that doesn't have anything to do with my point. there was nothing stopping you from forming and developing more reads, as opposed to talking about daytalk all the time, especially given the bolded. all I get from your ISO are a few reads that don't have much to them - if you weren't interested in daytalk discussion, I'd expect your effort to be focused on developing your reads further as opposed to making comments about daytalk.

also, you say this, but you ended up wading into it anyway when you offered opinions on, and voted, both of them down the road. hardly ggs

[

It reminded me of another interaction we had (me and Antihero) in another game

exactly what interaction are you talking about and what interaction did it remind you of?

also I don't see how that has anything to do with my point. the point was you had a TOWNREAD on Juls and then out of nowhere you retracted it and chose to take Juls' side in Juls vs. mollie. given you had a townread on her before, it read as you trying to take full advantage of that massive shitstorm by trying to jump on either of their wagons. (and on top of that this also discounts whatever interaction you brought up, unless I'm missing smth)

[Sugoku Sugoi]

now I need LOTS more votes on not_mafia, and I want everyone who hasn't yet to give their thoughts on my not_mafia case and how he keeps contradicting himself.

or you can just look at this:

None of my posts afterwards have been on daytalk, I can't exactly retroactively change discussion. And the times I was able to be active it was largely Helum and Juls tiff and I had no interest in wading in to a screaming match.

this is bullshit. helium vs. Juls didn't happen until after those 4 posts.

tl;dr: he brought up Juls vs. helium as a reason for him to not post anything besides his comments on daytalk, when it didn't even happen till after the post I called him on.

all you ppl who are pushing SS as a counterwagon can suck it ~

[Sugoku Sugoi]

No, seriously, this is both of you in top-form, top-shape towngame.

problem with this is I know your scum strategy is generally to try to get on my good side, and you prob know I don't question townreads on me very often. all I'm asking is exactly what it is that's giving you the townread on me here

ftr I'm trying my hardest not to get in an endless cycle of thinking you're scum like I did the past 2 times :p

(My scumteam at this point is probably N_M, Hoopla, maybe-Oversoul, and probably-Juls for what it's worth. Doesn't seem right, of course. But it's the best theory I've got at the moment. I really needs to do a revised readslist.)

talk to me about this. I have Hoopla, Oversoul, and Juls all as town. why do you think they're scum?

what do you think of my not_mafia case?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

wait Sugoku
I don't think the thing you bolded wrt Not_Mafia is that big a deal
Am I missing something?

first off

I am aware of the semi-hipocrisy in the post but the theory talk is only in the first half of the post. I was saying my final words on the theory stuff and after that trying to shift the topic back on track

at this point you only had 4 posts:

Spoiler: all Not_Mafia content up to here

Oh god, how many pages am I going to wake up to each morning.

Dayne v Juls feels town v town to me. Daytalk can be very powerful in good hands, not saying I want to lynch Desp or I'm even completely sure he's not reaction testing or something but.. meh, daytalk utilised properly can be good.

VOTE: SleepyKrew

Posting:Content ratio too high

PEDIT: oh lord like a dozen posts popping up

@Feu et Vol It's not that I find him annoying (I don't), it's a noise to signal thing

@Helium I can't make head nor tail of that post about Desp's self vote, were you calling his vote stupid or counter-productive or what?

Here's a game where scum used daytalk well throughout and it was probably (one of) the main factor(s) behind their win.

Anyway I feel like we're just getting in to theory discussion (the strength of daytalk isn't irrelevant but I don't think that's the lynch should be dependent on) when the actual game-related discussion is about whether we should lynch Desp, which I'd say a resounding no to at this juncture because despite my opinion on daytalk the actual implication of his role is ambiguous.

I am aware of the semi-hipocrisy in the post but the theory talk is only in the first half of the post. I was saying my final words on the theory stuff and after that trying to shift the topic back on track

p much all of these are related to daytalk. if you legitimately wanted to "shift the topic back on track",

why aren't you actually talking about anything else besides daytalk?

like if you were interested in that to the point you wanted to shift the conversation back to it, I'd expect you to be more involved in the rest of the discussion. but you only gave a few reads with minimal explanation and you aren't even interacting with anyone. it feels like you're just trying to look busy by making comments on daytalk without any intent to actually solve the game.

^original point I brought up. he was saying it was a bad idea to talk about daytalk, when all his posts up till then were him talking about daytalk.

when I asked him about it he said every time he wanted to post smth he saw the shitstorm between helium and Juls and didn't wanna get involved in it. which is bullshit bc helium vs. Juls didn't even start till after he made the comment about daytalk, so that couldn't have been his reason.

it also read as an excuse considering he ended up taking full advantage of it down the line when he voted both helium AND Juls

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@SaintK:

what's your read on not_mafia?

what do you think of my case on him?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Okay, I guess I'll read his meta in the Wire more closely to solidify a read there. Curious about your strong townread, was it my posts or Pie's?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

No, you should be. I just wondered whether I was able to make my alignment obvious like I wanted to or if it was Pie. Probably not game related but I was curious.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Okay, I guess I'll read his meta in the Wire more closely to solidify a read there. Curious about your strong townread, was it my posts or Pie's?

Also, If I'm actually your strongest town read as you indicated last night,

what does it matter

?

Ok, chill out. I wasn't asking as a way to sort you out. Remember when I said in Tales that I wished I could make my alignment obvious like you do and it is annoying that people might sometimes find me scummy as town? I just wondered if I succeeded in doing that or it was because of Pie.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Okay, I guess I'll read his meta in the Wire more closely to solidify a read there. Curious about your strong townread, was it my posts or Pie's?

Also, If I'm actually your strongest town read as you indicated last night,

what does it matter

?

Ok, chill out. I wasn't asking as a way to sort you out. Remember when I said in Tales that I wished I could make my alignment obvious like you do and it is annoying that people might sometimes find me scummy as town? I just wondered if I succeeded in doing that or it was because of Pie.

You haven't made enough posts to make it super obvious. It was Pie's posts which were tonally similar to the way he tried to get votes on Mastin in Tales of in a way that I'm not sure he's capable of as scum that made me move you guys from possible town to stronger town.

I do think you're capable of giving a reads list like you did last night as scum and I think that you as scum would call me your strongest town read as I would expect it.

Ah, okay. I've been info-dumping a lot in our hydra QT so I haven't posted much in here but yeah, expect me to be more active from here on out.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@ SleepyKrew, the question I asked was more out of curiosity than anything else. I'm trying to change my playstyle after a recent game (Tales of You) where I was suspected a lot as town and have been trying to stay out of conflicts as much as possible. I asked Tammy who she was townreading because I wondered if I was playing better than in that game. I totally get why it could be misinterpreted based on that past game which Tammy explained in Post 1064 but I don't think there is even the slightest chance she's scum here and I'll take that read to the bank. In the several games I've played with Tammy, I've only been this sure in her being town in maybe one other game. Her reaction wasn't "victimization" at all and her response made perfect sense to me in context of our past games.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I am actually not convinced that Hoopla is town but Pie is pretty adamant about it and we were actually discussing it in our hydra QT a little while ago.

He really liked Hoopla's interpretation on oversoul in Post 640 and her thoughts on the way Oversoul was asking to be neighborized were pretty much exactly in line with Pie's thoughts. He also thought that the way she's forming reads looks town. Her first reads (Juls, Oversoul) were based on claims or the way the game is playing out, which are exactly the kinds of reads that Pie says he would pick up on first if he was behind and couldn't make heads or tails of any of the arguments people were actually pushing. He also thought that the same mindset is shown with her Post 39 where she believes PN's miller claim - and the other read she had was a gut read and Pie thought it made a lot of sense for town who's behind to use as a starting point.

So, while I'm not convinced, we are still hashing out that read. My issues with Hoopla mostly was her vote on Helium which sucked and her excessive focus on claims.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I am actually not convinced that Hoopla is town but Pie is pretty adamant about it and we were actually discussing it in our hydra QT a little while ago.

He really liked Hoopla's interpretation on oversoul in Post 640 and her thoughts on the way Oversoul was asking to be neighborized were pretty much exactly in line with Pie's thoughts. He also thought that the way she's forming reads looks town. Her first reads (Juls, Oversoul) were based on claims or the way the game is playing out, which are exactly the kinds of reads that Pie says he would pick up on first if he was behind and couldn't make heads or tails of any of the arguments people were actually pushing. He also thought that the same mindset is shown with her Post 39 where she believes PN's miller claim - and the other read she had was a gut read and Pie thought it made a lot of sense for town who's behind to use as a starting point.

So, while I'm not convinced, we are still hashing out that read. My issues with Hoopla mostly was her vote on Helium which sucked and her excessive focus on claims.

Eh, but my problem is that Oversoul is completely capable of self-metaing as scum. You should remember that as you were in the nightless game. Remember the big self-meta read that Oversoul gave that made Arthur town read him for? I just don't think that that's a real read someone would give. I do agree on the neighborize thing though. That part looks a bit townish.

I guess the reason Pie is town reading Hoopla is one of my biggest problems with Hoopla. I don't think that *so many* arguments here are so hard to follow that Hoopla can't get any sort of read based on play. I mean what does she do in games where people don't claim early? Wander around for 30+ pages lost? Even I don't do that.

What do you guys think of Slandaar and Saint Kerrigan?

You are right about Hoopla's read on OS not self-meta'ing as scum is inaccurate. I'm about to crash but I'll read her ISO in depth tomorrow.

We don't have a read on Slandaar so far. He only made seven posts. I didn't like his vote on Shos as it didn't feel like he was putting any effort into the game and just showed up to put down a vote there but it is too soon to tell.

Pie and I are both scumreading SaintK. I don't like his push on SpeedySaki and it feels like he isn't assessing their motivations beyond just getting annoyed with their actions. Pie is townreading SpeedySaki and I agree with him. He and Metal Sonic played together before and hydra'd together and he felt townvibes when he interacted with them earlier. Pie also got bad gutvibes from SaintK's Post 941 as he felt that he was buddying both you and Juls. I don't get townvibes from any of his posts. I want to wait to see what content he delivers since he said he would be back with analysis.

What do you think of them?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

can i talk to pie of sugoki plz. I never got an apology from f16 after wicked when I def think I deserve 1 after he fueled the chamber and I squabble as sleazey slimey scum in wicked. I like pie.

Um, what? I have no clue what you are talking about. Chamber and you had a squabble in Wicked and I was scum there. I never "fueled" your argument, I was barely even thinking about it and mostly I just glossed over it. I looked through my posts again to see if I unintentionally offended anyone and all I saw was this:

I don't feel like posting much until we get those posts back but I've had some time to think about this game.
Bazinga, I think you are wrong about Chamber. Your entire argument there is coming across as more personal than alignment indicative. Take a chill pill and re-analyze. Chamber, clearly you are a smart guy so I am sure you understand why Bazinga is obvtown. I'd like your thoughts about the list of people I am scumreading.
~ F-16

Which isn't remotely fueling an argument in the slightest so I have no idea where you got "fueling" from. Some of the posts were lost in a crash but I'm pretty damn sure I did nothing of that sort.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@ f16

where is where you hopped on the antimollie train and marginalised me by echoing cabd and chamber for the reasons (which were completely and utter bs) that they gave as a way to avoid interaction with me after i started really scumreading you and pushing for your lynch. you basically said I was not worth talking to and every1 let you get away with it. I don't care if you were scum it was bs. and made chamber and cabd feel vindicated even tho they were dead fucking wrong I never insulted chamber at all. he said he was smarter than me and much better at mafia AND I AGREED WITH HIM EVEN THO ALL OF HIS READS WERE WRONG. how was that insulting?

1) I never "hopped on" or agreed with anything Cabd or Chamber did. I was hardly even aware of what your issues were. The only thing that can come close to what you are saying is that you made a case on me and I said that I would ignore it. That had

absolutely

nothing to do with Cabd or Chamber. In fact, this hapenned much later after Chamber replaced out.

2) I barely even have a clue why you and Chamber were fighting. I was literally glossing over the entire thing. You are giving me WAY more credit than I am capable of as scum. It wasn't "oh, look Cabd and Chamber are fighting with Mollie, let me jump in," it was more like "Mollie made a case, let me not respond at all." The thought of Cabd and Chamber did not even cross my mind at that point. You are attributing to me things as scum, I just don't do. I'll sometimes ignore a case on me, sure. But I don't try to marginalize people based on town infighting. It is not something I'd use as scum because my conscience won't allow it. You are

way

off in thinking I had anything to do with you/Cabd/Chamber.

But, if you only want to talk to Pie, that's fine with me. I am not going to continue this argument here in this game.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

For what it is worth, I am in catch up mode and about 15 pages behind at this point. I've skimmed them of course but I've only completely read everything to about page 34 so I'm catching up from there.

Helium, you probably don't want to talk to me but the issue with your posting for me isn't the number of posts but the content of them. Tammy has nearly as many posts as you but most of them are calm interactions like her reachout to Juls and most of her posting involves working with players, comforting them if they are frustrated and want to replace out etc. It is not the number of posts that is the issue Juls was referring to, but rather that her interaction with you felt like a lot of noise. Your posting isn't similar or comparable to that.

I am not sold that Hoopla is town but I agree with her sentiment as she is feeling the same way as me about not wanting to be a leader but a follower in this gamestate. I've just gotten off of a recent game where a lot of people, me included were involved in a very tense gamestate and I think the major problem there was too many people leading the game and too many strong personalities. All I am asking is to take a step back and let the thread breathe for a while.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

SKrew's rxn to Tammy is ridiculous and I have no idea what to make of it. like I don't see town reacting like that but it's so ridiculous I don't see scum reacting like that either. as it is I'm taking it as null

I didn't like SKrew's 1100. he was pushing SS earlier but then calls SaintK out for her SS push.

@SKrew:

why do you dislike SaintK's push on SS? do you have a townread on SS now?

I liked Hoopla's frustration re: mollie and 1228 felt genuine.

I fucking hate shos so far. the entirety of his SS push is "admitted active lurking" which is rly rly flimsy and I don't get the feeling he's actually trying to push for more information from them or figure out what the motivation in their posts are. I also hated 1247 - he supposedly put down a "serious vote" on not_mafia who is currently the leading wagon, so I don't see why he's worried about not being able to get a lynch. I get the feeling that's just him using ATF to push a mislynch on an easy target.

@shos:

are you still scumreading not_mafia? do you have any other scumreads?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

welp shos sheeped us onto not_mafia

bus.jpg?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@mollie:

what do you want to talk about?

also walk me through this scumread on Oversoul you have, bc I don't see it. I think the way he blatantly asked to be neighborized and then had no concrete reasons behind it was p town

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@Jason:

@Jason:

which Juls posts in particular read as fake?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@ pie - remember when I said that desp's reaction to mine and bert's outing us as the vig was wrong? skrew is showing the same kind of wrongness. do you see what I mean?

I don't remember you saying this but I do remember it feeling off

what exactly felt off about it? like I agree it's p ridiculous, but I can see it possibly being legitimate and I get the feeling it might not necessarily be scum. unless I'm missing smth

[Sugoku Sugoi]

yo shos

@shos:

are you still scumreading not_mafia? do you have any other scumreads?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

How do you know they didn't sheep one of the other 4 people that were on the wagon at that point?

it seems like we're hte one making most of the waves about it and we're leading the wagon so I assumed he was sheeping us

[Sugoku Sugoi]

YO.
F-16.
OUR READS ARE THE SAME AGAIN. (Not just reads, but reasoning. So there's a few reads that aren't identical, but they are very, VERY vastly synched up overall.)
DON'T YOU DARE GO PUTTING ME IN THE NULL PILE AGAIN.

(Also, NS is town and Juls is going back into my personal suspicion list. I definitely think I'm wrong on at least one of SAD/Oversoul being scum if not both, for what it's worth.)

Why is NS town and Juls suspicious? In the pages leading up to this post, Juls's posting has felt insanely town especially the posts where she considered replacing out and wanted to spare her replacement the trouble of choosing who to neighborize. I have a hard time seeing her fake it to such a level. I don't have any opinion of NS so far and I've found him nearly impossible to read.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

It's not that I think they are fake, I didn't say that

Its more I couldn't decide if it was frustrated town wanting out due to pressure or scum caught and giving up.

I am leaning towards the frustrated town, its how I sometimes feel in similar situations.

what was giving you reservations about it then?

like that doesn't resonate w/ me at all. I thought it was p obviously town and I don't see why you thought there was that much of a chance she was faking it.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

i said it on the zombie board. would you like me to post it?

okay so why do you think it is legitimate? cos

skrew is saying that he thinks my reasons for townreading tammy are bs

and that tammy was claiming vicimization. do you agree with these statements? if so can you walk me through a bit tia?

link me to where he said the bolded plz? I must have either missed it or I don't remember it, sry

I disagree with him calling Tammy's post victimization, but I can potentially see town thinking that especially if he doesn't have much experience with Tammy or if he just wasn't reading too much into it. I can also potentially see town not caring about stepping into other ppl's conversations, since that's a playstyle issue. the first part of his interactions makes a lot more sense if you assume he didn't know the context when he was reading it. on the other hand, him calling Tammy "obvscum" did feel really off and now he's not really following up on it (although that could be bc he doesn't wanna push a lynch on someone who's def not going to be lynched)

overall I'm taking the whole thing as null until I figure it out. I still can't make any sense out of it

[Sugoku Sugoi]

pedit jfc like a billion posts. lynch out of juls/metalsaki/jason today if anyone wants to actually listen to me

you have a scumread on SS?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

fuck. I did read it wrong

that's what I get for skimming everything I miss

brb looking again

[Sugoku Sugoi]

ok I'm rereading this and I'm not convinced SKrew accusing Tammy of "victimization" is scum trying to instigate stuff. the way I read it, him asking about "victimization" was his way of asking why she responded in the way she did - and especially given he wasn't aware of the context re: Tammy v. F-16 and said he hasn't played any games with Tammy, I could potentially see that line of argument from a town POV although I do see the possibility she's thinking of

I read that post and I get the feeling him saying "Tammy agreeing not to argue" is a blanket phrase for the whole interaction between you two. again it makes sense if he isn't familiar with the context and how it comes across in games

tl;dr: it makes a lot of sense from someone who isn't familiar with Tammy and wants to get a read on her, although I do think you all have a valid point and after thinking about all this I'm left with a metric fuckton of null and I don't know how to parse it either

although now I'm wondering about the "is Tammy my aunt" comment you mentioned bc that doesn't make much sense if he isn't familiar with Tammy, but I'm prob just missing or misremembering smth

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I think Jason's vote is more town since he is engaging other avenues.

Tempted to start a counterwagon to Not_Mafia via SaintKerrigan but ugh no one would follow me.

VOTE: Saint Kerrigan

Not_Mafia wagon is still good, Kerrigan is still good. Push both for profit!

Why are you tempted to start a counterwagon if the one on Not_Mafia is good?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I don't really like either of them. I'm waiting on Kerrigan's analysis post to see what that brings though. I really don't like Slandaar though. He lacks a certain cocky "I'm town" tone that I've seen from him, and him not really trying to figure out the game in any capacity is especially worrisome.

but I'm crashing myself, so hopefully both of them will do something by the time I wake up.

I agree. I played one game with Slandaar-town (N is for Normal) and he came off vastly different. Most of D1 was him tunneling Thor (who would up being scum). But I don't know if the difference is alignment indicative or just him having less time to play the game. I'm going to go through a couple of his scumgames to see if there is a difference.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

huh

I don't think I understand your point then?

F-16 agrees with me on shos scum. I'd be fine with that although I still wanna lynch not_mafia

[Sugoku Sugoi]

you plan on sheeping people who are screaming about being short on time?

those are the scumbags.

also, you explain. explain.... anything.

Well, I am currently 15 pages adrift and have at multiple times including now, feel like I have overextended myself and can't keep up with some of the players in the game. For me, I sympathise with Juls' ire with the hydras, although my complaint is more along the lines of having 26 players crammed into 19 slots, which is just adding volume to the game, and not the good kind of volume, because like Juls' talks about, it is schizophrenic and hard to approach. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault for all this, though. I knew there were hydras playing in the game and I knew it'd be a challenging game for me, as I am used to smaller games where it's possible to get a read on everyone and work the game out via PoE - that is my modus operandi. I lack confidence in developing behavioural reads (especially on players I barely know) to the point where I feel dishonest when I express reads based on a gut reaction to their behaviour because I know how easy it is to be wrong about someone when you view them in isolation. I am used to seeing gamestates as a whole, and solving it that way - it's the only way I've really ever been a successful player as town, and obviously, I cannot do it in a game this large.

I am trying to start though, and have several solid town reads. Someone was lamenting my reads were mostly based on the claims, and I'm aware of that - those are one aspect of the game where I am good at reading the situation and setup and seeing if it makes sense. The reason I am so willing to sheep someone I trust is because I actually feel like this will forward the game. For an advertised "quick" game, it actually hasn't been very quick. Few people have made efforts to progress the game forward - few people are compromising and trying to build new wagons, and we haven't even got anyone close to being lynched. The majority of people aren't trying to further the game - they are using the theme as a license to spam without remorse. It is fine for people who keep up with it, because they are improving their reads by participating in the process, but there are always going to be people left behind and this will essentially be the lynch pool. In a game this size, I am extremely skeptical about town's ability to make meaningful choices early in the game, to the point where utility lynching is probably optimal to make future days more efficient.

I don't really know what the point of this post is, because I know you'll construe it as whining since it doesn't comply with your mantra about how you play the game, but I feel like at least talking and trying to interact with people more will help bring me back into the game, or at least help you guys read me more. This is where I'm at mentally. Perfectly willing to sheep and compromise with anyone trustworthy, because it looks like the game is going around in circles... giant, giant circles. We need more sheep, because not everyone can be a leader.

This feels really genuine and town.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I was just about to waffle on whether N_M is town due to the VT claim but ninja'd by Hoopla. I do think that as scum, he'd be more likely to claim a PR to out one. I am not entriely sold on this and the paranoid part of me makes me think Hoopla told him to claim VT in their scum QT with daytalk. BUT, I have a pretty strong scumread on Shos. I was even telling Pie that Shos's posts are so bad he overtook Not_Mafia as the most scummiest player in the game. We might switch but we're going to discuss first sometime this evening. I do wonder though why Hoopla decided to look at the stats at this particular point. What was the thought process that led you decide "okay, N_M claimed VT, let me go find all the D1 claims and figure out how many are scum?"

SaintK's post is decent and I agree with his positions although my issue is that there isn't anything new or insights that no one else has considered. It feels like a safe post that aligns with the opinions of the majority and that is worrisome.

I am still looking over JasonT1981's meta in the Wire. Pie and I are both more convinced he is scum after seeing all his latest posts and we actually managed to write up a case but I looked through a triple ISO of Cerulean/Jason/mod in The Wire and I can see where Tammy is coming from with the townread. I'm going to wall about it tonight so we can hash it out as it seems Imperium will very likely be killed tonight unless they are protected.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Jason, do you have a list of reads yet? Are you fully caught up with the game?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

the way not_mafia claimed and dropped that reads list off unprompted was town. not 100% but it's enough to make me lean towards shos for now. (also F-16 thinks shos is more likely to flip scum than not_mafia at this point)

vote: shos

L-1

[Sugoku Sugoi]

vote: not_mafia

actually F-16 and I have shit we wanna do first

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Will you have falcon read his iso in The Wire and in Team Mafia 2012. He should have the link for the team mafia game as he pulled it up in another game for reference, and I'm lazy right now. In both of those games I had Jason as scum really early (I realize I was his partner in Team Mafia but I read the game before I got my role pm), and he doesn't really feel like either of those games.

Jason meta from The Wire.

All right, so Tammy I went over your and Jason's ISOs in The Wire and I can see what you were referring to with regard to his "fake" posting there. I agree that his wall in that game in Post 122 feels off and has very little content, most of which is just telling Arthur not to roleplay and pushing easy angles. And this was another post I agree looked fake.

Quick post before going to bed, will catch up tomorrow. But Vifam constant one liners and lack of real content really sit wrong with me. I have him marked as scum already but so far seems to be trying to coast through the game doing very little.

Vifam - How is DV fake no matter what? Can you go into a bit more detail please... making empty statements like that is not really good for you right now.

I think this was one of the posts you were referring to when you said he felt fake there as well as his push on Arthur and Vifam in that game mostly based on their playstyles as opposed to their affiliations and the lack of scumhunting and coasting in the game.

I agree with you on a couple of things first being that he doesn't feel "fake" or have that cocky, fake demeanor which he had when addressing Vifam, and second being he didn't jump on the opportunity to attack Arthur. I am not fully convinced though and here are a few of the issues I'm having:

• His "reaction fishing" in Post 82 and complaining that SleepyKrew "butted in" in Post 98 reminded me too strongly of his "gambit" in the Wire followed by his complaints to Vifam in Post 47 of The Wire.

For a more visual representation, compare these two:

Spoiler: Jason's reaction test in this game

UNVOTE:
VOTE: jason

Can't work it out then?

When has being obtuse ever helped town?
(never)
When has being obtuse ever helped scum?
(always)
When did being obtuse as town become acceptable?
(I really want to know)

I was more or less reaction fishing.. wanted to see what reaction would come of a proposed 1 vs 1.... If X claims miller, and Y is lynched flipping miller we lynch X.

this was however before the talk of multiple encryptors which does sorta render my idea useless now.

Well? Share with the class what results this brilliant fishing brought?

Nothing.... because you butted in. :/ It was worth a try... wasn't guaranteed a result but was trying something anyway

Spoiler: Jason's reaction test in The Wire

Subject: The Wire, Season 1 - Final Credits!

Just out of interest does anyone have a white person PM? This is semi-important.

Wait, all the bad guys in this show are BLACK?

What the hell

EXACTLY

Way to blow my gambit ffs.

• The second issue for me is his low level of scumhunting. Most of his early posting (the first seventeen posts of his ISO is talking about either daytalk/encryptors, or responding to SleepyKrew with very little pro-active pushes. He then takes a break and backs off of SleepyKrew in Post 471 for undisclosed reasons.
  
• His push on Helium3 in Post 472 is actually not horrible but not great either.
  
• I don't much like his interactions with SleepyKrew. He constantly says that SleepyKrew is putting "words in his mouth" such as in Post 99 and Post 851. Yet, despite that, he is hesitant to vote or scumread him and I am not seeing why he is so hesitant to vote someone who is putting words in his mouth but is okay with voting Helium and SpeedySaki.
  
• His Post 856 and Post 1118 felt a lot like asking for a case on him which is again reminiscent of The Wire.
  
• His Post 870 attacks SpeedySaki for their playstyles rather than anything alignment indicative which is also reminiscent of his attacks on Arthur and Vifam in The Wire.
  
• The rest of his ISO doesn't contain much genuine scumhunting either. Post 1275 is further asking for a case on him. Post 1277 is continuing to push for a lurker lynch on an easy target. Post 1281 is the continuation of a rather odd townread on SleepyKrew despite SleepyKrew putting words in his mouth.

Pie and I wrote a

case on Jason

last night. Here's the summary:

In particular, Post 950 had a shitton of fence sitting and didn't accomplish much, and him leaving Juls faking that as a viable option doesn't resonate at all. He didn't explain exactly what felt fake about it either. Note: I don't think jason is scum with shos given Post 950. Besides that none of his other posts give me anything to question the read. I quite strongly dislike his push on SpeedySaki in Post 870 and it feels like he is jumping on the easiest target to push and his reasoning isn't solid at all. He calls them "coasting scum" which is more of a playstyle thing and can actually apply to several other lurky players like NS. His push on Marquis in Post 952 felt really bad as well and his list of scum suspects in Post 953 consists of mostly weaker players in the game and his follow up on Post 1113 for "coasting" and "staying under the radar" which describes Jason's play as well.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

So, the reason I was asking you for a readslist is to see how easy it would be to get you to provide one (as you did here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3935162) and MagnaOfIllusion's subsequent comment in the next post was somewhat interesting too. I know you can provide reads lists as scum like you did in TM2012 so I am not sure if it is a slam dunk tell but it still bugs me that you didn't provide one even after being asked twice.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I thought I had something insightful, but I'm not so sure it's insightful, so never mind.

I'm still leaning town on Jason though, and if he is town here I have a tell for him. :/ Falcoguru those reaction tests look different to me. The one to vifam was such obvious ohgoshdarn you ruined ffs whereas this one was more you butted in so now it's not going to be effective though to be fair it probably wouldn't have worked anyway. I'm starting to get worried I'm entering into my day one derail scum suspicion though which I learn day three was a big mistake.

I have no idea what to think of Shos though; he would have had to have been planning ahead of time to claim vengeful with his nero cain claim thing.

You could be right and you do have a better track record of reading him so I don't know. I personally haven't seen anything super town but I think I'll get a better idea as the game develops. I am still reading the Harry Potter game to see how much he pushes on lurkers. Why are you calling me Falcoguru anyways? Not sure what the context for that is. Who do you think is our best shot for a lynch at this point?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Okay, so Pie and I developed ten townreads which we'll post in a bit. Our reads on the remaining eight players are in flux and we're not done refining them yet but the deadline is coming so we'll hold off on them for tomorrow.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

TOWN (Strongest -> Weakest)

1) Imperium

- All of Tammy's posting so far is blatantly obvtown and her scumhunting feels extremely genuine and makes a metric fuckton of sense not to mention that we agree with most of her reads she got in Post 746 and I also like how she developed those reads through interactions. I absolutely love her response to Mollie's reachout in Post 260. Her scumhunting of Arthur in Post 581, of Bert in Post 580 and Post 604, and her wanting more contribution from me and wanting to discuss Jason's meta all read as ridiculously transparent and obviously town. Her waffling on Desperado and slight paranoia even while townreading him in Post 819 and Post 822 lines up perfectly with how I know she develops her reads as town. Post 934 is the winner of F-16's "Best Post In The Game" award by a mile and matches exactly the kind of play I expect from her based on recent events and her organizing the town, and diffusing tensions felt amazingly town.

2) Helium3

- I'd be massively shocked if Helium3 is scum here as Mollie's play has been outside the range of what she is capable of as scum and several of her posts felt like she was genuinely trying to get the town on track even if I tend to disagree with her positions. Her pushes on Mastin and Oversoul felt like she was testing their reactions in a very town way, and I love the reachout to Tammy as well in Post 255 and the reachout to Juls in Post 962 is pretty much impossible to fake. Antihero's response to SK in Post 189 reads town tonally and his comments on Not_Mafia's initial post match mine to a T. His argument with Juls on hydra dissonance starting around Post 477 makes a ton of sense and I can see that he is coming from a town viewpoint even as I am townreading Juls at this point and the incredulity in his interactions pretty much feels like he is wearing his alignment on his sleeve.

3) Fue Et Vol

- Pie liked Marquis' reaction in Post 225 to Juls's claim. It's about what he'd expect if he had that role and someone else claimed it in this setup given Desp's encryptor claim. There's a good amount of uncertainty about it and then he follows up on it with the speculation in Post 310. Besides that he's being very proactive overall forming reads and pushing people especially wrt. his Juls push. Fue Et Vol using the neighborhood QT as their hydra QT as they mention in Post 937 and their explanation for it felt very genuine and while it can hypothetically be faked, it doesn't feel like Fue Et Vol is faking it at all.

4) Juls

- First off the way she early claimed reads town - when Pie has a PR and gets wagoned he always feels the urge to claim early, because otherwise town generally wastes a bunch of time pushing someone who in the end claims PR. We also liked her conviction in her push on mollie - a large part of her effort this game has been towards her mollie push and on a gut level it doesn't feel faked either. We liked the way she was pushing the hydra dissonance argument in Post 486 for reasons previously explained in Post 982. Her breakdown and asking to be replaced out because no one ~gets~ her was also genuine as fuck. Her issues with not fitting in Post 921 and Post 925 felt alignment indicative mostly because as scum, she'd probably be more likely to write off her not fitting in as due to being scum but she seems genuinely frustrated here and is actively looking for a solution even if it means replacing out and her resignation in Post 908 was insanely town.

5) Desperado

- Overall he's making a lot of waves in the game. This showed up immediately when he first claimed encryptor and talked about it a lot at game start. He's also pushing Juls with a shitton of conviction and it feels p genuine and like he believes he's talking to scum - this came across in p much every post in his Juls push. As a more specific example, posts like Post 527 and Post 528 - based on what Pie has seen of scum Desp, he gets the feeling he could easily have made up some fake reasons to call Juls scum, but instead this came off as open. In addition to that, his confidence that Nacho would read him as town in Post 827 came across as townish. Quite a few of his reads in Post 811 match with ours and most importantly we can see where he is coming from with them and his assessment of Not_Mafia in Post 814 felt accurate and genuine.

6) Ser Arthur Dayne

- Arthur's initial posts felt easygoing and natural tonally, and his frustration with Helium3 in Post 248 felt particularly genuine especially when he was getting grilled about why his quote should be ignored and wondering if they were trying to reaction test him. I also really like his reaction in Post 503 and the dayvig Helium and asking if Juls would be okay with the lynch felt like he was genuinely trying to sort Juls. While we disagree with his Post 511, it felt like he actually thought he caught scum and I can see it coming from a town POV especially when he provides his reasoning in Post 520 which actually makes a lot of sense. His wanting to leave Tammy alone in Post 585 also matches up with how I know he sorted her in NY169 and I really love his confident response to Slice in Post 660 about Tammy being able to read him best.

7) Perpetual Nonsense

- Their miller claim in Post 28 and their response to Arthur in Post 352 and wondering about the setup felt town and Bert isn't the sort of player to gambit as scum. The way he addressed Arthur in Post 550 and Post 551 read as extremely confident tonally in a way that Bert as scum can't fake especially the "

his reads list is pure hubris

" and the wanting Mollie to do her thing D1 is something Bert is keenly aware of. I also thought his paranoia of Tammy in Post 578 read as town and felt extremely similar to his paranoia of me in past games and the rest of his interaction with Tammy starting around Post 607 felt easygoing and confident and lacks the nervousness that I usually see in scum-Bert who I think is afraid to interact naturally with Tammy when he is scum.

9) Speedy Saki

- Pie can def see where he's coming form wrt. the game moving too fast and not being able to pick up on any reads. It's not definitive but it's enough to make us lean elsewhere for now. On a gut level, the way he's being pushed as a counterwagon to not_mafia makes us think it's a scum motivated wagon. His Post 759 where Metal Sonic was happy to see Pie felt genuine and I think he as scum wouldn't be as excited to see someone that can read him giving him attention and the very blatant way he said that he was lurking also doesn't feel fake at all. His Post 958 also felt town and while it is possible that he could be scum fake soft-claiming, I feel it is less likely. We can sort of see where he is coming from in his reads list in Post 1116 and he is probably not scum with Not_Mafia based on the way he voted.

8) Hoopla

- Her interpretation of Oversoul asking to be neighborized in Post 640 felt town. While it is true that her not having reads based on play is somewhat concerning and I agree with Tammy there and that weakens my townread, I felt that Post 1181 was incredibly genuine and her frustration with game speed and hydae resonated a lot as well and her "

it doesn't comply with your mantra on how to play the game

" came off as very genuine. It feels like Hoopla is truly advancing the game by not being a leader and sheeping her townreads and coming off of Tales of You, I empathize with her position considerably. Her reads list in Post 1186 isn't really far off from ours either with Helium3, Arthur, and Imperium being the only notable differences although I do wonder why Hoopla is unable to see the obvious w.r.t Helium/Tammy being town. Post 1208 and Post 1228 felt town too.

10) Oversoul

- His reaction to the neighborizer claims read as genuine. Pie doesn't see scum going "hey neighborize me plz" and then not have any reasons besides "~town reasons~" - it feels rly genuine and open. I also liked his Post 353 as it mirrored what I was thinking at the time and I somewhat liked Post 564 which comes across as trying to sort Arthur by working with Tammy. His frustration with Helium and Slice of Life in Post 786 read somewhat genuine although not a slam dunk. Probably one of the weakest townreads for F-16 but stronger townread for Pie.

---

Tl;dr list

:
Town (S->W): Imperium, Helium3, Fue Et Vol, Juls, Desperado, Ser Arthur Dayne, Perpetual Nonsense, Speedy Saki, Oversoul, Hoopla
Scum are among:

{Slice of Life, Nobody Special, SleepyKrew, Slandaar, Not_Mafia, JasonT1981, SaintKerrigan, Shos}

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I am fine with Shos using his vengeshot. If I was him it would be on either SaintKerrigan or Not_Mafia but that is just me. Do we need anymore time? I will place a vote on him.

Don't know how many votes there are but don't hammer until we discuss a few things.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Post 1458 actually feels pretty town. Not sure why you think it is a scumslip SleepyKrew.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Slandaar and SaintK are not bad targets to shoot either if we lynch Shos and he is town.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

If you are to shoot someone... I would shoot Speedy, its not just lurking, its scum coasting trying to remain under the radar and not be noticed occasionally popping up and saying something fluff to avoid a prod.

There is little to 0 game content from speedy.... Shoot scum, Shoot Speedy.

^if shos is actually town, this is prob scum trying to redirect the vengeshot onto town

shos, if you're town, don't fall for this shit

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I think shos is still scum tho

in retrospect I don't like his statement that a lot of his entrance was reaction testing. bc if you take all that away, that means his only serious push this entire game was that half assed SS push

[Sugoku Sugoi]

the thing I liked about not_mafia's claim was that it was spontaneous and unprompted. I liked the timing of it and it came off as genuine - I got the feeling he was legitimately apologetic about not doing well in the game.

it's a really weak tell and I still think he's prob scum, but I want a shos lynch more right now and after the way he claimed I'm willing to give him a bit more room and see what happens

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Tammy, btw, relevant meta on SleepyKrew-scum:

(Dead link removed via mod edit)

I only found this game because he was saying something in MD about how he managed to get Regfan mislynched in this game as scum but since he did, I am assuming it is definitely one of his better scumgames.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@ MOD

, can you delete that link in my previous post please. I think I accidentally linked to my to hydra quicktopic but the link isn't working so it is not that big a deal but I would appreciate it anyways.

Here's SleepyKrew's scumgame

[Sugoku Sugoi]

no I have not_mafia as scum, just less likely scum than shos. I had not_mafia as my biggest scumread till he claimed and that moved him below shos for the time being - plus I wanna give not_mafia some more room considering he said he didn't put enough time into the game or smth (?)

idk if they're scum together or not (on a gut level shos's jump onto not_mafia makes me think no but I don't wanna write it off just for that), but both of them could be scum independent of each other. in AOT I did my reads dependent on each other and it resulted in me townreading scum at the crucial moment bc a stronger scumread was pushing them really hard. ever since then I decided to try to keep my reads independent where possible.

I agree vengeful claim = auto lynch and regardless I still have a scumread on shos. I hated his SS push - it felt like he was using ATF to push an easy target, it didn't feel like he was trying to legitimately question SS to find more info, and once you remove all that "reaction testing" he claimed he did that was the only thing he did in the entire game.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I agree SKrew's claim is p ew (2-shot commuter is a rly easy claim for scum) but I'm almost positive commuter only dodges night actions?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

btw I agree with 1515 feeling fake:

Are we even going to bother lynching anyone other than shos?

I don't understand why the Not_Mafia wagon died due to a VT claim. Since when does that justify getting a clean slate?

^this felt like SaintK was scum complaining about why his wagon died in order to keep the suspicion going. it prob implies not_mafia town if it's true but again I don't wanna write it off just for that

on that note idk if not_mafia makes much sense as scum with a lot of our POE reads, but that's for later

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I've been a commuter that could commute during the day or night, not consecutively, but I could leave during the day, which affected all day actions even the lynch.

this was originally a normal setup. if there's a commuter in a normal setup, I'd expect it to be a standard night commuter.

@SKrew:

clarify plz

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I still don't get this scumslip

SaintK, can you explain it plz

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Pretend I came from a long-forgotten era where claiming vanilla meant jack nothing to keeping you out of the noose. Now, suddenly, you're transplanted to a time where a Vermont claim kills your wagon. Does that help you understand my confusion?

that doesn't have anything to do with my point tho - the point is, the "confusion" read as fake.

also, if you've been keeping up with the thread, you should know why it derailed. it was explained out the ass when it happened (hoopla statistics, timing, etc.). did you srsly miss all that? as it is, it reads as scum complaining in order to look busy.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

hoopla gave a pretty good argument about why not mafia might be town. what do you think of that?

and when I say a good argument I am not talking about the statistics thing cos no.

I am talking about how she assessed things from a townPOV/scumPOV wrt the reads list that not mafia thinking he was a bout to get lynched gave out. were you the 1 who was worried about coaching? cos some1 was and I cannae remember who.

well yeah. the reason I liked the claim was similar to that and it's the reason I now want a shos lynch over a not_mafia lynch.

besides that tho I had a p strong scumread on not_mafia based on play which I've explained throughout the game. (all the reasons I've been bringing up still hold - as a rule of thumb, I don't forget about previous reads I've had on a payer.) the claim was the first thing that made me question the read. now that I've seen smth to question it, plus he said smth about not putting enough time into the game, I want to give him more room for now to see how the read develops.

so you think that shos in his last bit of deep scummy breaths voted a scumbuddy in order to save himself?

I mean 1 could argue that he did it in order to form some distance but that isn't the argument you are making and I don't think it is what shos was doing? (contingent on me crying myself nightly forever if shos flips scum)

who am I talking to here cos that will make a difference.

this is pie. as I said, that's the main reason I don't think shos x not_mafia is a team. however, at this point I don't give a shit about that. I prefer to wait until after flips to use associative tells.

again, who am I talking to here?

I am asking cos f16 knows the value of waffling on a fellow scum at a crucial point I mean this is literally what happened on d1 in wicked and then later the bus looked so good which carried the win. do you know who fucked that up? me.

and is AOT the tales game?

AOT = attack on titan.

in that game I had Paschendale and Kazekirimaru both as scum but I had Kaze as stronger scum than Pasch. Pasch was at L-2 along with Plum who was town and Kaze was deathtunneling the shit out of Pasch. I had Plum as null and thought since Kaze was pushing Pasch it was more likely for Plum to be scum than pasch as a result. town came rly close to losing that game in the end, but if we had lynched Pasch instead it prob would have been almost a town steamroll.

ever since then I've learned to do my reads independently - while I don't think shos and not_mafia are scum w/ each other, I literally don't give a shit and would rather just lynch a scumread without regard to associatives.

the vengeful claim=auto lynch looks like a safe play based on popular thought processes not your own.

shos made up some thing that nero claimed vt and then shos is all like I am super vt and then he tried to use that as if it actually happened. the meta I don't have on shos? is what he would do if he replaced into a scumslot.

his sweet mollie campaign was ott.

I can't say it's not?

it is what I thought, but I'm not commenting on every single thing in the game - I'm mostly skimming what I miss, commenting on recent stuff, and pushing my scumreads. I didn't think about bringing it up till someone else said it.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I am talking about how she assessed things from a townPOV/scumPOV wrt the reads list that not mafia thinking he was a bout to get lynched gave out. were you the 1 who was worried about coaching? cos some1 was and I cannae remember who.

oh and this wasn't me. idr who it was tho

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Assuming Shos is town, the only player that is likely to be vengekilled that Pie and I are adamantly against in SpeedySaki. We explained our read in our massive reads wall and Pie has a meta townread on Metal Sonic based on past experience playing with and hydra'ing with him. Besides that, I think the best shot is among SaintK, Slandaar, Not_Mafia, SleepyKrew. We are okay with Jason as well and I'm kinda taking Tammy's townread into consideration although it is not something we are going to fight over if Shos wants him dead. Null on Slice of Life as well. We have some concerns about Mastin but neither of us are going to pretend to be able to read him so there's that.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

NS's post is blatantly town motivated. there's a shitton of things he could have said but he focused on that. this is kind of positional bc I think SS is town, but I like where his focus is.

Vote: Shos

Shoot well. Or die hard. Depending on your alignment.

yeah this. this sounds fake. (it's probably fake.) (i have too many townreads already.)

-marquis

agree with this

you have a townread on SKrew?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

NobodySpecial's Post 1503 resonates as well and I can really see where he is coming from with his readslist, Helium being the only read that I disagree with strongly. I also agree with Pie's post above regarding his focus on SpeedySaki. Anyways, our final end of day readslist is something like this:

Town (S->W): Imperium, Helium3, Fue Et Vol, Juls, Desperado, Ser Arthur Dayne, Perpetual Nonsense, Speedy Saki, Hoopla, Oversoul, Nobody Special
Scum are among:

{Slice of Life, SleepyKrew, Slandaar, Not_Mafia, JasonT1981, SaintKerrigan, Shos}

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Jason's recent posting sucks ass. 1638 is way too self aware in a way I don't see coming from a town POV at all. it doesn't matter NOW that shos was flip flopping around and if he really believed this he should have mentioned it before. as it is it reads as scum trying to get his town cred from shos flipping town.

vote: Jason

[Sugoku Sugoi]

why would jason scum kill his only ally? far as i can tell tammy didn't (doesn't?) crumb and nacho is MIA

I'm not assuming jason was singlehandly deciding the NKs. it's probable the other members thought tammy was the best kill even tho she thought jason was town

and on that topic, we think slice of life is prob scum and it makes a shitton of sense scum mastin would kill nacho as revenge before he gets to do anything

[Sugoku Sugoi]

this mastin?

if so, 1001

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Ummm I DID mention it before, right before the hammer

nope. that was in reference to the

reason

you posted, not the sheer fact you suggested it.

if you really thought that was a good reason behind what you're saying, you would have brought the fact shos was scumreading whoever was scumreading him up when it was actually relevant

[Sugoku Sugoi]

that has nothing to do with my point and I get the feeling you just strawmanned me on purpose

Half his scum reads were people on his wagon or said he was scum...he was changing his target anytime someone said he was scum and was basically a wildcard.

This is why I thought it best for town to dictate who he shot.

you used this and said you thought it was a reason for town to dictate who shos would shoot.

the fact you thought him flip flopping on reads was a reason to LYNCH him was irrelevant. if you thought it was a good reason for TOWN TO CONTROL THE KILL, which is what you're saying here, you would have brought it up when it actually happened, so that it would actually be relevant at that time.

but you didn't make that link anywhere. as it is, it reads like you used that excuse after the fact to get town cred from shos flipping town and misshooting.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I'm not assuming jason was singlehandly deciding the NKs. it's probable the other members thought tammy was the best kill even tho she thought jason was town

why kill tammy though? she didn't crumb, she spent the day tunnelling a townie that she ended up murdering, and she had a list of townreads that didn't include any of three who died and flipped town.

You are kidding, right?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@ falcon: ...no?

Okay, well. Tammy was
a) Obvtown and unlynchable
b) Diffusing tensions among the town and preventing the game from turning into a hostile environment
c) Known for waffling/paranoia
d) Persuasive enough to push lynches
e) Has Nacho to back her up and double the threat to scum

If Jason is scum, Tammy being alive and prone to waffle is a greater threat to him than dead Tammy who had a townread on him. Besides that, most scumteams with or without Jason in them would have considered her the optimal NK. How was she "tunneling" Not_Mafia anways? And I can't think of who else any scumteam would have shot.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Keep telling yourself that if its what helps you get by justifying your vote.

dodging isn't gonna fly with me, sorry

[Sugoku Sugoi]

also I love how jason's reaction to me pushing him was to OMGUS me. that seems like scum flail 101 right there.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

desp what do you think about jason and his reaction to my push on him?

fwiw, I agree with slandaar scum at this point, but I'd rather not have a scenario where we divide our attention between 2 scum and they get out of it

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Bert, what are your reads looking like right now?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Ugh, I was hoping no one would ask since now I have to give reasons and they're controversial. Be careful what you ask for.
<Hoopla, SAD, Saki>
then lurkers - Mastin, Slandaar

SAD is being really different from 169 where he was a pinball machine tunneling people like me, he's way more calculated here.

Good work gang

This day is railroaded towards a shos lynch. Lets get on with it shall we??

hoopla for that frenetic optimism, while obscure about her/his full goals. most posts are short and dont have a great point in them
and Saki for making little sense at the end of D1, more of a "let's set up" kinda tone

Okay, that sort of makes sense and vaguely in line with ours. How does Arthur feel calculated here as opposed to in NY169? What are your thoughts on JasonT1981 and SleepyKrew?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Why exactly are you wary of Perpetual Nonsense?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

But your VCA feels really arbitrary and simplistic though Hoopla. I mean, if town have a read they are confident in, it wouldn't make sense to hop around all the wagons and if scum are opportunistic, they would go with the flow which means changing wagons. I find both of them to be null.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I didn't avoid.. I've directly answered you twice.

As I said.. 1) I had already in D1 expressed concerns we should control the kill if he was telling the truth 2) had already pointed out on a few occasions he was going after those who went after him.

As I say, if you want to tell yourself otherwise, knock yourself out.

you did not "directly answer" me. I'm accusing you of 2 things:

1. you said on D1 you brought up shos scumreading everyone who was scumreading him as a reason we should control who he shoots, but you never said that - you said these things independently and brought up 2 as a reason for thinking he was scum, but never brought up 2 explicitly as a reason for 1.
2. strawmanning said argument when pressured about it.

what you said might be true, but IT'S NOT RELEVANT HERE. you're manipulating irrelevant evidence to fit your argument and hoping you can just shake it off.

I'm not "looking to justify my vote", I'm looking for an explanation. explain why you did both of those plz

more an observation

this is bullshit. let's suppose it's just an "observation". what was your thought process behind making that observation?

it's p obvious you're thinking of it as a reason for us being scum. the obvious implication behind what you said is that, since we "seem to know more" about NKs, we're scum who was planning it out. and there's no reason to point smth like that out otherwise. so this feels like you're backpedaling on your previous stance now that you're being pressured for it.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

1638 feels like him pointing out he was right in order to get towncred from the shos/SaintK townflips. this is even more so the case when he never actually said shos being really jumpy and scumreading everyone scumreading him was explicitly a bad reason for shos to control his own vengekill.

there was more earlier (in general, a lot of fence-sitting and overall being wishy-washy about everything - F-16 also thinks this is an attribute of his scum meta) and there's nothing very town in his ISO to make me second guess the read.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Juat an observation as I said, as it seemed you knew more about NK reasons than anyone else......it was 'interesting' speculation.

So are you gonna do anything with this observation orrrrrr

^THIS. if it was just an observation, what the hell was he trying to do with it?

it came from a mindset of him accusing us as scum and then he backpedaled on it once he realized it wouldn't work

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I don't buy Jason's indignation. F-16 and I have been looking through some of his scumgames and he can fake the indignation he's shown here as scum.

1751 is a huge ass fencesit and feels like an excuse he just made up. it especially doesn't add up given Jason is scumreading us (?)

[Sugoku Sugoi]

what I said is true, but not relevant?

LOL please, bitch!

How can it be true then dismissed as not relevant.

you did not provide evidence that contradicts my original statement - the fact that you never explicitly used shos flip flopping reads as a reason to control his vengekill. you provided examples of shos flip flopping reads as a reason to think he was scum, and INDEPENDENT examples of you worrying about his vengekill. the examples you brought up HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER. hence, true but irrelevant - you're manipulating the evidence to try to make it fit my argument.

Oh yes, because you use that to justify your BS postings. You're full of it.

this is a blatant misrep. I JUST SAID I'm questioning you to shed light and let me confirm or deny my read on you.

why do you ignore that and instead OMGUS me over it?

like really?

if you're town, this is fucking bullshit and gives me nothing to work with to fix my read on you. all I'm trying to do is push for answers. but you continue to dodge the point I'm actually making (the fact you never actually linked shos flip flopping reads to us needing to control shos' vengekill, but then said you did) and OMGUS over it. you haven't actually answered any of my points - you just keep coming back to this one point "not my fault if you don't see it" and act like you can just dodge my suspicion of you by bringing it up.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

now I need lots more votes on Jason, and I want everyone not named jason to give me their thoughts on his reaction to me and my case on him.

@Jason:

until you quit blowing me off, I won't respond to any more of your posts. plz and thx

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I am very ok with a Slandaar lynch, but I prefer to lynch Jason if possible.

I am mostly trying to parse out SAD. I think Tammy kill implicates him. Slandaar's flip will help me in that regard.
Plus I think Jason is town.

fwiw I'm p sure SAD said the last game I played with him he would avoid killing Tammy N1 since he enjoys playing w/ her. although this might not mean anything given if he is scum the other teammates could have overruled it

why is Jason town?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I have NOT ONCE said I am scum reading you... no where have I suggested I think you are scum. I am saying that right now what you said may be useful later in the game to look at.

didn't you accuse me of BS'ing earlier?

what I said is true, but not relevant?

LOL please, bitch!

How can it be true then dismissed as not relevant.

Oh yes, because you use that to justify your BS postings. You're full of it.

^if you don't think I'm scum can you plz clarify what the bolded means?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

We are not against lynching Slandaar but the speed of the wagon as well as everyone preferring Slandaar over Jason worries me. I am getting the impression that Slandaar is being wagoned due to low activity and contributions to the game which is a null tell although I do think he is very likely scum through POE. I want to see the claim as well and go from there.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

You actually buy that?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

You unvoted as soon as he claimed something that ridiculously scummy so I wondered if you thought it was townish. I want to wait to see his results.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I was asking you whether you bought the claim.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I am conflicted on it. If Jason is town, it would be nice to have him cleared since I have a lot of suspicion of him and I don't really buy into the GF tell. If we are picking people based on middle of the road, I'd much rather it be among Slice of Life, SleepyKrew, or Hoopla. I am decently confident Desp is town, Pie is massively confident about it. Mastin, SleepyKrew, and Hoopla all have one thing in common which is a really stellar scumgame and they'll be among the most difficult players to read. The first two are also in my POE pool of potential scum.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Slandaar's claim is bullshit. this is why:

1. cop is the easiest role for scum to fakeclaim. there is also absolutely nothing in his entire ISO leading up to said claim.
2. why the hell would he cop US as opposed to someone who's actually dangerous as scum (e.g. mastin) or someone who doesn't have much content to analyze? this is why: I don't believe he thinks we're actually getting lynched this game. so him faking an inno on us is a v convenient play - we're under just enough suspicion for him to justify it, yet he doesn't have to remove anyone from the potential pool of lynches.

I also hated 1932. "believe me, I took everything you all said into consideration" -> proceeds to cop us out of complete nowhere. it's complete fucking BS

I intend to vote Slandaar as soon as he gets his result.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Not wanting to post my life story is scummy?

Obviously I know my activity hasn't been of an acceptable level which I can explain with a life story post but I hate those so I just decided to use self-meta. It isn't WIFOM because clearly my plan as scum would never be to not contribute to a game and then argue I'm not scum because as scum I normally contribute and try to look town. The point of the selfmeta was to say/show my lack of activity isn't alignment indicative because as scum I do actually contribute thus the self-meta is posted instead of posting my life story.

I have the day off today so I will be able to try and get into the game...

this isn't a post coming from the POV of an even day cop

town with that role wouldn't need to resort to this defense of self-meta to explain why his inactivity is non-alignment indicative. town with that role also wouldn't comment that his activity hasn't been "of an acceptable level", given lurking as a PR (especially a strong one like a cop) is a perfectly legitimate strategy.

on the other hand this defense feels way more natural from a scum POV


also jason x Slandaar team makes a shitton of sense given scumteam has daytalk - they could have easily invented this claim as a gambit and then ppl would rely on jason's experience with Zach.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

if he's somehow telling the truth I want the result out for completeness

F-16 and I also haven't convened about it yet although I'm p sure he doesn't buy it either based on what he's posted in thread

[Sugoku Sugoi]

VOTE: Slandaar

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I think putting a cop at L-1 before they post a result on someone not voting them is... bad to say the least.

This is a scum strategy to escape a lynch. If he had an inno on us, he wouldn't be worried about us not voting him and would out it. This only means that he plans to claim a guilty which since we are town, is because he is scum.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

If he was town, he'd be outing it right now.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

If he had an inno on us, he wouldn't be worried about us not voting him

Sorry can you rephrase that?

If Slandaar is town with an innocent result on us, he would simply out it. He wouldn't be worried about whether we are going to hammer him.

If Slandaar is town with a guilty result on us, he wouldn't want to do it because scum-us can hammer him.

Him saying that he doesn't want to put at L-1 because we can hammer is an implication of a guilty result. That's basically a scumclaim from our POV.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

damn it

vote: SOL

we agree on mastin scum

vote: SOL

[Sugoku Sugoi]

8. Desperado
9. Perpetual Nonsense (Bert + SXTLHGaiden)
15. Feu et Vol (beastcharizard + Marquis)
7. helium-3 (Antihero + Pirate Mollie)
12. Imperium (Nachomamma8 + Tammy)
11. Sugoku Sugoi (F-16_Fighting_Falcon + pieguyn)
16. SleepyKrew
14. Hoopla
5. Speedy Saki (Metal Sonic + Saki)
1. JasonT1981

10. Juls

2. SaintKerrigan

3. Slandaar

17. Ser Arthur Dayne
13. Oversoul
6. Not_Mafia

4. Nero Cain
18. Nobody Special

9. Perpetual Nonsense (Bert + SXTLHGaiden)
12. Imperium (Nachomamma8 + Tammy)
11. Sugoku Sugoi (F-16_Fighting_Falcon + pieguyn)
7. helium-3 (Antihero + Pirate Mollie)
15. Feu et Vol (beastcharizard + Marquis)
8. Desperado
18. Nobody Special
16. SleepyKrew

5. Speedy Saki (Metal Sonic + Saki)

3. Slandaar

2. SaintKerrigan
1. JasonT1981
17. Ser Arthur Dayne
13. Oversoul

10. Juls

14. Hoopla
6. Not_Mafia

4. Nero Cain

in order for this to work from mastin town, she would have to believe there were legitimate reasons for Slandaar to be less scummy than Juls (or Juls more scummy than Slandaar) - when Slandaar was being a giant lurkfuck (he only had 2 posts and did literally nothing) and most of Juls' most town moments came in between those 2 reads lists. then:

Spoiler: mastin catchup posts

Hoopla, what do you make of Desp's encryptor claim and subsequent action.

I dunno. Feels like some weird setup shenanigans going on, so I'm inclined to leave the claims be, and work them out later.

I feel overwhelmed by this game already. Who is town? I'm basically willing to sheep someone and vote with them until I have any real opinions of my own. Someone speak up.

(That said, Hoopla's looking like scum for this.)

Oh, and just saying, Sleepy's VERY obviously town.

VOTE: Not_Mafia.

I still lean town on Juls by the timing of her claim and because I don't see how this Hydra talk stuff is alignment indicative so I feel like she's just being backed in to a corner over nothing, I don't like the read on Feu Et Vol but I can also see it coming from someone who doesn't know them. Helium I see jumping on everyone and I don't think they're actually reading the posts they're attacking people for. The not liking entrances thing is mutual with slice of life, both head's entrance looked quite forced to me

haha, no. slice of life is town. and you're scum. and you're also strawmanning with "jumping on everyone" because mollie's already told you about a number of townreads. you're just butthurt you're not one of them.
mollie would you please vote

not

_mafia?

Pretty much, yeah.

As for my readslist, Hoopla's probably plummeting down to around Slandaar/SAD. Maybe above Slandaar, maybe below, but in that very-low-zone where scum can quite easily be, but not necessarily.

So Oversoul and Mastin/Slice of Pie are probably scum... likely together.
Helium just feels all over the place and not really attacking genuinely? But at the same time the points they've chosen to focus on don't really make me think "scum motivation".
Still think Juls might be scum? I mean I would be frustrated with mollie really regardless, but I'll hold off on actually getting a concert read till I might ISO them soon or just generally wait for more posts.
Skrew/Sugo/Tamcho are all leaning town. I guess? Idrk yet I guess but w/e I'll be able to sort it out later.
I feel like I should have a read on not_mafia but I don't. I'll do some ISOs when I actually get coffee.

Also Mastin is probably gonna call this post bad. The preemptive response is "lol".

Damn straight. Calling a scumteam including Oversoul and myself while not voting either of us, discrediting helium when BOTH heads are VERY strong players (in vastly different ways), pointing suspicion onto Juls but avoiding going onto the wagon, weak reads when you should have MUCH stronger ones, the null on Not_Mafia being included yet not nulls on most other players, not to mention the 'lol' and the pre-emptively undermining of me.

and people who are saying "their pushes aren't genuine" are... ironically... NOT GENUINE
looking at SAD and not_mafia

^That.

At least Juls's looks genuine.

Speaking of which,

VOTE: Juls
Antihero's histrionics aside, I'm not liking Juls' "You're scum so you're using hydra dissonance as a scum tactic". Should really be the other way around.

Juls is moving up on the readslist. Heck, I might just flat-out switch her and Hoopla. (Not sure that logistically works out. I'll give ya an updated list when I get caught up.)

Dayvig: Helium
Juls would you be okay being lynched if they flip town???

this is a shit gambit. not surprising.

on the off-chance it's real, don't lynch Juls.
sheep mastin. lynch not_mafia and oversoul.

That's a scum response.

There was literally no townier way to respond to that gambit.

Your chaotic dayvig thing bothers me, it didn't generate discussion. Half of your reads are non-opinions pretty much, aka pure hubris. Also why are you going after helium so early instead of letting mollie do her D1 thing before we judge

(Did I mention Bert's town? He totally is.)

why do i get the feeling that everyone has forgotten that this is a speed game and is willing to dance around the lynch for 3 more days and let scum drive a mislynch wagon within the last 10 minutes like in dark age of the law

Yes, well, the lead wagon is on Juls which I think to be a mistake (the helium wagon is even worse), and I'm fighting for a lynch on Not_Mafia right now overall, with me spread out between him, SAD, Oversoul, and such. Basically, I can lynch any of my scumspects which creates the dilemma of none of them being pushed with conviction.

If I'm just leaning town but you aren't sure, why aren't you interacting with me?

(Because he's scum, and if me joining his wagon gets him more votes than any of my other scumspects, I'm doing so once caught up.)

Tbh there's a lot right now to focus on and right now I feel like I could let you do your own thing and then interact with you if any bells ring! (but I'm currently trying to figure out more priority targets right now with such short days).

*coughbullshitbullshitcough*

Not only is this response utter trash, it's also highly false: if there's a lot to focus on...why hasn't he actually, y'know. FOCUSED on it.

Honestly I like helium's points on them, but it's more of "I like the fact helium is finally making points that sound good/look like they're believing them" rather than "they're good points b/c it's true, not_mafia's posts have been bad" if that makes sense?
I'm going to ISO not_mafia soon but from what I remember he wasn't really memorable at all.

Really the only thing making me doubt that I'm onto the right track is

just how freaking transparently obvious

this scumteam would be.

Going to sheep Juls onto Helium

Looks like a good wagon.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Helium

^scum

Agreed.

But Juls probably

isn't

her scumbuddy, contrary to that somewhat-popular opinion.

hoopla / not_mafia / oversoul / SAD

It's official, we are now a four-headed hydra with a double-vote.

What do you look for in Mastin scum?

The flowchart has both, even if one side is favored a bit more prominently. (But that's the joke.)

yo mastin
the last discredit post was a scumclaim
you should have kept your vote

Probably.

I can basically vote any one of them at this point, soyeah.

VOTE: Oversoul.

SAD seems to be going on the defensive, first calling points bad but not explaining why and then resorting to personal insults regarding grammar and vocabulary.

Noted.

Not only is this response utter trash, it's also highly false: if there's a lot to focus on...why hasn't he actually, y'know. FOCUSED on it.

How is this a sentence you can actually type and click post on and expect it to be taken serious.

So, my computer's probably dieing. It's having trouble establishing a wifi connection, and the charger isn't charging it. I thought it could be overheating, but it's not; it could still be the charger, but that doesn't explain why my computer suddenly out of the blue is having trouble connecting to my modems. (Plural.) Consider me on a little bit sketchy access until I have solutions. :/

@mastin:

I find it hard to believe you're townreading me based on one post.

How damn many games.
How damn many games.

Will it take you to realize that, sometimes, *I* am that. damn. good.

where did that townread come from?

Try every word you're writing?

No, seriously, this is both of you in top-form, top-shape towngame.

Okay town is in helium, perpetual nonsense, desperado, feu et vol, and possibly in arthur, sleepy, jason, sugoku, oversoul, juls, and slice of life.

Definitely invite sleepy and sugoku in. Not really seeing the others, though.

I'm always town and you're always scum?

Answer this seriously, Mastin.

I did?

I legitimately have absolutely no clue what you're saying is common; you being scum and me being town is the only thing I can remember.

anyone up for a not_mafia wagon?

*raises hand*

Only thing really giving me doubt is the presence of other scumreads.

In a nutshell, I'm reading Imperium as obvtown? Helium is town and the wagon on them is pretty bad. I get why some people may vote them but the vote that bugged me the most is Hoopla's. I also completely agree with Antihero on his push on Juls although I am null om Juls and don't have a read either way, I do feel that Antihero's posts came across as incredibly reasonable and townish. I feel Bert's more recent posts have been extremely town and I'd be quite surprised if PN flipped scum here. Desperado's assessment of Not_Mafia feels town as well and I agree that scum-Desp would probably have written Tammy off as town. Fue Et Vol, SleepyKrew, and Arthur feel town as well. I still want to lynch Not_Mafia. Pie and I both have concerns about SaintK. As for Jason, I'm going to point out why I found him suspicious in my next post. Pie really likes Hoopla's post 640 about Oversoul and is townreading both Hoopla and Oversoul. I am not sure I'm sold on that though. Tl;dr list, (I'll post reasons for all of these tomorrow after refining my null reads):

Town (S->W)

: Imperium, Helium3, Perpetual Nonsense, Fue Et Vol, Desperado, Ser Arthur Dayne, SleepyKrew

Null

: Juls, Slice of Life, Speedy Saki, Slandaar,Nobody Special, Nero Cain, Hoopla, Oversoul

Scum (S->W)

: SaintKerrigan, JasonT1981, Not_Mafia

YO.
F-16.
OUR READS ARE THE SAME AGAIN. (Not just reads, but reasoning. So there's a few reads that aren't identical, but they are very, VERY vastly synched up overall.)
DON'T YOU

DARE

GO PUTTING ME IN THE NULL PILE AGAIN.

(Also, NS is town and Juls is going back into my personal suspicion list. I definitely think I'm wrong on at least one of SAD/Oversoul being scum if not both, for what it's worth.)

i'm surprised people can't tell the difference between me and mollie.

To be fair, you have the same posting styles.

But tonality, it's the difference between night and day. (I might be biased, though, since I've worked with both of you extensively in games.)

Juls

(5): Desperado, Feu et Vol, SleepyKrew, Not_Mafia, Nobody Special

Not_Mafia

(4): Sugoku Sugoi, Ser Arthur Dayne, Imperium, Oversoul

Oversoul

(3): helium-3, Slice of Life, Perpetual Nonsense

I will lol if it turns out that all three top wagons were on scum.

Probably aren't, but still. Heard it here, first.

(My scumteam at this point is probably N_M, Hoopla, maybe-Oversoul, and probably-Juls for what it's worth. Doesn't seem right, of course. But it's the best theory I've got at the moment. I really needs to do a revised readslist.)

she would have to believe none of these reasons were worth pointing out in her catchup. there was no mention of Slan anywhere in here and the only mention of Juls was her pointing out smth looked GENUINE, not scummy.

this thought process makes literally no sense from town and I'm calling bullshit - on the other hand, it makes a lot of sense as mastin scum faking a read on her buddy.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

haylen's SS push on D2 was fucking terrible. so was her reaction to the Slan wagon

their push was shallow as fuck and based off one post:

the deaths make me want to cry

poor vigs poor imperium



BUT! I did find SK post very ironic

Vote: Speedy Saki

For that post.

there was a complete lack of interaction in any way with SS on top of that. then, when the Slan wagon happened, they spent several posts waffling and epically failing at committing to a read on Slan, then said they didn't want to hammer him. then they kept trying to deflect suspicion onto SS and Desp:

Spoiler: haylen D2 posts

The self meta-ing rings my buzzer a little bit. They're saying they aren't scum because they haven't bothered trying to look town, basically.

Trouble is, I don't believe that because in their iso, they look like they're making an attempt at doing something. Null to me, I can buy the excuses that they're behind.

Hey Desp, what's you're opinion on Oversoul? I'm trying to get a read on them and failing.

Oversoul, what's you're reasoning for that vote?

Can somebody drag me in by asking some questions, please? I need to direct my thoughts, finding this game a bit difficult. Thanks.

PS I'm not hammering someone for being what I read as genuinely inactive.

Also I'm posting from work so won't answer straight away.

Can somebody drag me in by asking some questions, please? I need to direct my thoughts, finding this game a bit difficult. Thanks.

PS I'm not hammering someone for being what I read as genuinely inactive.

Also I'm posting from work so won't answer straight away.

not only is genuine inactivity not a reason to think someone is town,

you don't even think it's genuine

:

Trouble is, I don't believe that because in their iso, they look like they're making an attempt at doing something. Null to me, I can buy the excuses that they're behind.

why do you suppose slandaar is lying about not doing anything then?

ps if slandaar was doing something you'd fucking know it.

Anyone fancy a Desp lynch? That was a really bad misrep. I said that I believed that Slaander was behind. The first part was in reference to this post. I don't see the post as being particularly damning or scumclaim. It just looks like a poorly worded sentence.

Can somebody drag me in by asking some questions, please? I need to direct my thoughts, finding this game a bit difficult. Thanks.

PS I'm not hammering someone for being what I read as genuinely inactive.

well one question that comes to mind is "why does 'genuine' inactivity imply town?" and "what's 'genuine' inactivity?"

I never said it was town ~ Another misrep ~ I clearly said it was null. Genuine mean real life causes or finding the game is progressing too quickly or whatever.

Why is Desp an obvious townie to you?

overall all this looks fucking terrible and means one thing: SOL is Slandaar's partner

[Sugoku Sugoi]

desp what do you think about jason and his reaction to my push on him?

fwiw, I agree with slandaar scum at this point, but I'd rather not have a scenario where we divide our attention between 2 scum and they get out of it

Also, I can see Slandaar and Sugoku as partners based on the post where sugoku doesn't want to split the wagons.

I am very ok with a Slandaar lynch, but I prefer to lynch Jason if possible.

After I posted 1771, they posted 5 posts in our private topic in a span of 30 minutes defending/hedging their read on jason.

Also, they were dead set on jason yesterday and came in with this:

vote: SOL

we agree on mastin scum

Where did that jason read go? Especially since the last thing they did before slaandar started "investigating" them is this:

also jason x Slandaar team makes a shitton of sense given scumteam has daytalk - they could have easily invented this claim as a gambit and then ppl would rely on jason's experience with Zach.

We are still scumreading Jason but our read on Slice is stronger after a) The read progression that Pie pointed out that makes no sense whatsoever, and b) The way Haylen acted around the Slandaar wagon.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Oh a case. Sort of.

I had and still have no intention of interacting with SS. Their posts give me a headache. That post where I specifically voted them for is an old tell ~ "Scum Celebrations", some scum do it after managing a particularly good nightkill.

I committed to a null read on Slaander.

Yes I'm disconnected to this game

because half of me is missing

. If you're trying to play as an individual AND a hydra, you're posts are going to look terrible. Unfortunately, I don't particularly have any choice in the matter.

I stand my those posts as being terrible misreps and have a leaning scum read on those players as a result.

I don't hold much faith in role claims to determine alignment.

"Scum celebration" is a rather weak point to make against SpeedySaki and it feel it is a bunk tell. Have you had past experience effectively using this tell as town? Because I didn't see anything scummy about their post and it felt more like you were jumping onto an easy target.

Why would your posts look terrible because your hydra partner is missing? I've played games where my hydra partner and it never affected the quality of my posts. As another example, Tammy was playing this game while Nacho never showed up and it didn't make her posts look terrible either. With a partner missing, I feel that the natural inclination is to take control of the game by yourself and I find it hard to buy that Mastin's absence is causing you to be disconnected.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

wrong

everything that happened at the end of the day (from them asking why i unvoted after such a scummy claim to their convoluted reason for hammering) was insanely over the top for scum on scum violence.

I don't think there was anything convoluted about my reason for hammering. I agree that it probably wouldn't have turned out that way had we been scum but I feel it is pretty straightforward. Slandaar was posturing to claim a guilty result on us so I hammered him before he and his scumbuddies could create chaos.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Feu Et Vol, what are your thoughts on Slice Of Life?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I think you just hammered them.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Vote: Sugoku

Same case, different day. This game is stupid.

why is this game stupid? i'm feeling pretty great about it actually

Really? A lot of our scumreads flipped town and scum shot a bunch of our PRs. What are your updated reads looking like right now?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

((except for a lingering thought that that's what he did in the wire iirc ))

What are you referring to?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I don't buy SleepyKrew's commuter claim in light of all the PR's that already flipped (2X Vig, Vengeful, 3X Doc, 2 Masons, 2 neighborizers). It seems way too OP. That and he is one of the few in our POE pool that we are not reading as town.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

That and he is one of the few in our POE pool that we are not reading as town.

care to share?

Nope. Health reasons. Wouldn't want to make you vomit again.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Just generally how he looked lost and confused in the wire and here.

I'm not sure if it's a playstyle of how he typically is or if it's a gambit he pulls as scum or what.

I am conflicted on Jason. I don't like Skrew's push on him and he is actually right that Skrew is pushing the hell out of him based on no reasoning at all and I'd be surprised if Skrew actually is town based on his claim. But then, there is the matter of Jason's odd townread on Skrew near the beginning of the game despite the fact that he says that Skrew was "twisting his words" and other stuff. I also didn't like Jason's ambiguous read on us where he accuses us of BSing our read while staunchly saying that he wasn't scumreading us which doesn't make sense unless he is implying that we as town are BSing our read.

Most of our D1 scumreads flipped town (besides Slandaar) and whoever the remaining scum are, the played a decent enough game to get us to townread them. I posted this in our neighborhood but here's an update:

Spoiler: D1 Reads

Town (S->W):

Imperium

, Helium3, Fue Et Vol, Juls, Desperado, Ser Arthur Dayne, Perpetual Nonsense, Speedy Saki,

Hoopla

, Oversoul,

Nobody Special

Scum are among:

{

Slice of Life

, SleepyKrew,

Slandaar

,

Not_Mafia

, JasonT1981,

SaintKerrigan

,

Shos

}

As for the possibility of Skrew and Jason bussing, it would be a rather odd way to do it if they are with Skrew pushing on Jason and Jason townreading Skrew. I'm not ruling it out though just through sheer POE.

From our townreads, I am massively confident in Fue Et Vol being town, Helium is town mostly for D1 and their interactions with Tammy. Speedy Saki is basically conftown and you seem town. That leaves Juls, Desp, PN, Oversoul, Skrew, and Jason. I am really not sure where to go from there.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Juls, you are wrong about at least your first two suspects. I explained what I thought about the Jason/Skrew interactions to Arthur above. I'm not sure what to make of it really. We haven't dropped our scumread, I am just less sure than before and assuming that reads don't change during the course of the game is wrong to say the least.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

It didn't and it still hasn't. He's still one of the people in our POE pool.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I am not assuming he is confirmed town. I only made about 2-3 posts to him so far mostly revolving around what he thought about the setup. Jason and Zach know each other pretty well from what I gathered and I wanted his take on the setup in case Jason is lynched and does flip town. Like I said, I am not massively confident in that read at this point and I still want to go over stuff with Pie. I also think that in light of the town PRs that have flipped so far, it is really unlikely the SleepyKrew is town and that played a part in my weakening of my Jason read because of how hard SKrew pushed on him.

Believe me, if I "designed" something with Slandaar, I'd make sure to cause maximum drama, not hammer him before he can claim. Actually, it is really obvious what he was doing. He was afraid that we would hammer him and that's why he wanted to not be at L-1. I caught onto his crumbing a guilty on us though and hammered him before someone unvotes and he actually claims it and creates a ton more chaos.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

As far as our POE list being bad so far, you are preaching to the choir. I am well aware that someone (or maybe more than one) who is scum snuck past us and got us to townread them. We are definitely going to be re-evaluating our reads.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Well, that's sad since we think you are likely town especially after that reads list you posted. I was hoping you were trying to actually read us by assessing our responses rather than convince us that we are scum.

We explained our Fue read earlier. We also got neighborized by them and saw their hydra conversation in the neighborhood thread and it felt super genuine. SS is in there as well so you can confirm with them and since they are conftown, you know they are giving you their honest opinion.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

No, we were neighborized on N3, and yeah, SS had outed there.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

What are you trying to say exactly?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Except we didn't get a link to the thread until D4 began and NS was dead N3. The neighborize action resolves at the end of the night so you are implying that we got in there, saw that NS was a mason and killed him, that isn't possible.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

That and he is one of the few in our POE pool that we are not reading as town.

care to share?

So, this was Antihero? Sorry, I thought the lack of caps meant it was Mollie who had refused to interact with me hence the response.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Look, the way Feu posted in the neighborhood was incredibly town. They had around 80 posts or so of analysis of the gamestate even while they were by themselves and they spent a ton of time considering all the possibilities, what it meant when you cc'd them, what Desp's encryptor claim meant etc. It doesn't feel like scum at all.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

And you read through those 80 posts in this short time and were extremely certain.

What about when you hit that claim post. What went through your head?

What claim post?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I felt that the game made a little more sense. SS was indeed town like we thought and Fue's certainty in SS being town also makes sense if they knew that SS was a Mason.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

LOL but you would have already seen that NS died. How could you not go "oh no, feu is scum". NS wasn't the obvious night kill target.

Well, for one, Perp Nonsense in there too. They were neighborized N2 (SS was neighborized N1). I did wonder for a split second whether PN informed the scum about the Masons but upon seeing Bert be as town as he is, I let go of that suspicion.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

No one asked.
Ask them. They had a ton of discussion about each neighborize mostly revolving around wanting to neighborize hydras and they changed their choices tons of times.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I am pushing Skrew because I don't buy his claim and I am not pushing Feu or PN because I am reading them as town. I don't think they are good information lynches because I expect them to flip town. Anyways, I'm not going to continue spamming up the thread, I already feel guilty about how much I am spamposting so I'll respond to anything else in our neighborhood.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I apparently "slipped" because I didn't suspect Fue upon seeing SS's claim and NS getting nk'd.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

not sure atm

I still hate jason and I hated his 2118 - it makes literally 0 sense to push a SS-scum angle at this point and I agree with feu it feels like a bullshit scum angle. and I have literally no idea who the fuck is scum if it's not him. but at the same time, in hindsight, I hate SKrew's claim and I like jason's points on SKrew. so far we have: 2 masons, 2 neighborizers, 3x doc, 2x vig, vengeful, encryptor (?). there's no way in hell we have 2x commuter on top of all this stacked shit.

on top of that, the way he claimed was really off, as if he was trying to avoid being vengekilled by claiming.

we're in the process of looking through our reads again. we agree on SS, helium, and feu as rock solid town.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@Marquis:

walk me through your scumread on Juls. also, how would Juls flipping town affect your SKrew read?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

fucking really

oh also: I can't find any scum motivation for scum Juls to request a 1v1 like she's doing here. given the current gamestate, it's p obvious in a Feu v. Juls 1v1, Juls would lose. it doesn't make much sense as scum to request a 1v1 you can't win, and again, I love her conviction.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

So, this was Antihero? Sorry, I thought the lack of caps meant it was Mollie who had refused to interact with me hence the response.

it was antihero. that's me.

...and mollie gets the same consideration i do.

I'm sorry, she doesn't get to call my posts vomit inducing and expect any consideration. She greeted me at the beginning of the game by telling me that she refuses to interact with me and only wanted to talk to Pieguy. I told her I was fine with that and I still am.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I don't buy the commuter claim in part because there already is a 3X doc. That means that there are multiple players that the scum cannot target on any given night. There are ways around it (like strongman) so it could be possible. I am not seeing it as likely though.

Desp, what are your reads on SleepyKrew and Jason?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Desperado, I agree with you on SleepyKrew and Jason. I feel that they are both individually scummy. I am convinced that I want one of them lynched today although I am not sure which. Also, these are some of the posts that I am townreading Juls for. Let me know your thoughts on it.

I'm seriously thinking about replacing out. Everyone seems to know the heads of the hydras and it's all very confusing to me. I have to keep looking at the main post. Like who the hell is pie? And talking about the other head of your hydras is making me confused too.

if you replace out (especially when efforts have been made to try to include you) we will have to decide whether or not that you genuinely feel excluded (and I do not know what else to do to get you to feel included but vote you) or if you are throwing your hands up in the air cos your scummates are [redacted].

It's not about being included, it's about being annoyed because I can't form reads when hydras are talking about each other and then other hydras referring to them by their heads names. I don't like to replace out but this game is going to be real difficult for me to follow. Everyone seems to know each other and that's great, but I don't know most of you, I don't know what side-games you are talking about and it's not something I am enjoying at the moment.

While this could be non alignment-indicative, I thought that her emphasis on developing reads and frustration that she can't develop them because of the hydras felt genuine, like she wanted to keep track of everyone so she could read us all.

Look guys, I am not saying I don't get why you saw my flip-flop as scummy, I do. I am pretty resigned to my lynch and that's fine. It will be a lesson I learn and play better next time. I don't find myself under suspicion very often in the game of mafia as either alignment but when everyone piles on I get a little flustered. Especially when I am town and my only defense is, I did something dumb. I will be at work all day then have somewhere to go after. I will post from my phone but won't be able to respond with a word count that is probably sufficient enough for you until probably late tonight or early tomorrow.

That being said, when I do get lynched! please look at who is being the most opportunistic and that is helium

Other things to address
@Skrew - why would I need to crumb from the get go as a neighbor? People I neighborize will confirm that ability. I crumbed more to explain my vote than to confirm my role.

@helium - I keep this line of communication open to show how ridiculous of an argument you are making so let me talk real slow for you ( well read it real slow ok?). I am Juls. I joined back in 2008. My husband is Moratorium. He also joined back in 2008. The hydra, Julatorium was created in May of 2014. I don't "not understand" hydras. I generally do not like playing with them unless the present themselves as one person with the occasional "hydra head A thinks this". In this game, people are addressing questions and talking to hydra heads specifically. They are also posting on their mains. Not all but some. The fact there are like 6 hydras in this game are compounding the problem.

The suspicion of Helium felt genuine and the focus on lynching someone else after she is lynched and flipped town comes across as a mild towntell. I guess it is possible she as scum is flustered at letting her team down but the "I did a stupid thing" felt genuine and not like she is trying to cover up anything or make herself look good.

I have fought. But people keep voting me so I will keep fighting right up until you do lynch me. It will be YOUR (collective town) responsibility to go back through the day and see the disingenuous people pushing me. Pay close attention to those who are defending me as well because

there is likely at least one scum in that bunch who doesn't want to touch my wagon with a ten foot pole. It will likely be the ones who believed me beyond a shadow of a doubt, not the ones who have struggled to read me.

I have admitted that I can see where people thought I was scummy. I have no delusions that I will make it very late in this game. In fact, I strongly suggest not keeping me around longer than maybe 3 days max so we don't have to revisit questions surrounding my day one play and lose. The "when" you lynch me doesn't necessarily only apply to today.

The emphasis on players both on and off her wagon feels like paranoid town that is afraid that scum are whiteknighting her for the cred. I feel that scum don't usually attack players defending them as to not antagonize them unless they are playing at a very high level. I liked that Juls was paranoid, she was certainly paranoid of us, felt that we were scum with Slandaar, and once Slandaar flipped, thought that she was legitimately onto something. The one thing that concerned me though was the bolded in light of her suspicion on us now. It is clear that we struggled to read her which she characterizes as flipping reads through convenience but it could just be confbias.

The more people talk, the more information town will have when I get lynched.

It's clear I don't fit in with this group. I don't know if that is due to scum jumping on me and riding me or if it's just personality conflict. Either way, I think my presence is hurting town. Therefore, if I am not lynched, I will choose my target and then replace out during the night.

Three things I liked about this post:
a) The emphasis on gathering information for the town if she is mislynched
b) The assumption that her not fitting in is due to personality conflicts etc and the fact that she is making a big deal about not fitting in. I feel it is more natural for scum that don't fit in to assume that their lack of fitting in is due to being scum and faking their reads and analysis.
c) Her consideration of replacing out while also doing something she believes will help the town. As scum, she doesn't need to do this since she has daytalk with her buddies and they can take care of it.
Overall, if she is posting like this as scum, she'd have to be

incredibly

manipulative, especially concerning the replace-out.

Fuck, even my decision to replace out is argued over. I thought it would be better to pick someone so that they didn't have to make a snap decision without getting fully caught up. I'm trying to have as little impact on the flow of the game as possible.

I've let Zach know my intentions and asked to have someone start reading up. If I don't get lynched and he has a replacement who is ready to go when night gets here they can pick their target.

These two posts concerning the replace out also felt genuine.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@desp: I like your post and agree with just about all of it but I'm confused as to what the conclusion is. while I think it's likely both the jason and Slan wagons were on scum, even if jason is town, his wagon not being run up makes sense if scum had planned to bus slandaar from the start. although I don't think that's the case given there wasn't much of a push on him D1 iirc

who do you think the scum who bussed SKrew were? overall I think SKrew's push makes a lot of sense as a bus. he was pushing jason as a counterwagon and didn't make any push on Slan at all until he was at L-2 and it feels like scum abandoning ship. (his push on jason might also make sense as a bus given he still hasn't made that case he was talking about, but that's for later)

[Sugoku Sugoi]

20th Vote Count of Day 1

Not_Mafia

(6): Sugoku Sugoi, Ser Arthur Dayne,

Imperium

,

Speedy Saki,

SleepyKrew,

shos

SaintKerrigan

(4): Oversoul, Desperado, Juls,

Hoopla

shos

(3): Perpetual Nonsense,

Slandaar

, helium-3
Juls (1): Feu et Vol

Speedy Saki

(1): jasonT1981
Oversoul (1):

Slice of Life

Not Voting (3):

Not_Mafia

,

Nobody Special

,

SaintKerrigan

21st Vote Count of Day 1

Not_Mafia

(7): Sugoku Sugoi, Ser Arthur Dayne,

Imperium

,

Speedy Saki

, SleepyKrew,

shos

, Juls

shos

(4): Perpetual Nonsense,

Slandaar

, helium-3,

Not_Mafia

SaintKerrigan

(3): Oversoul, Desperado,

Hoopla

Oversoul (1):

Slice of Life

Juls (1): Feu et Vol

Speedy Saki

(1): jasonT1981

Not Voting (2):

Nobody Special

,

SaintKerrigan

22nd Vote Count of Day 1

shos

(6): Perpetual Nonsense,

Slandaar

, helium-3,

Not_Mafia

,

Hoopla

, jasonT1981

Not_Mafia

(5): Sugoku Sugoi, Ser Arthur Dayne,

Imperium

,

Speedy Saki

, SleepyKrew

SaintKerrigan

(2): Oversoul, Desperado
Oversoul (1):

Slice of Life

Juls (1): Feu et Vol
jasonT1981 (1):

shos

Not Voting (3): Juls,

Nobody Special

,

SaintKerrigan

23rd Vote Count of Day 1

shos

(8): Perpetual Nonsense,

Slandaar

, helium-3,

Not_Mafia

,

Hoopla

, jasonT1981, SleepyKrew, Juls

Not_Mafia

(4): Sugoku Sugoi, Ser Arthur Dayne,

Imperium

,

Speedy Saki

SaintKerrigan

(2): Oversoul, Desperado
Oversoul (1):

Slice of Life

Juls (1): Feu et Vol
jasonT1981 (1):

shos

Not Voting (2):

Nobody Special

,

SaintKerrigan

24th Vote Count of Day 1

shos

(8): Perpetual Nonsense,

Slandaar

,

Not_Mafia

,

Hoopla

, jasonT1981, SleepyKrew, Juls,

Slice of Life

Not_Mafia

(4): Ser Arthur Dayne,

Imperium

,

Speedy Saki

, Sugoku Sugoi

SaintKerrigan

(2): Oversoul, Desperado

Slice of Life

(1): helium-3
Juls (1): Feu et Vol
jasonT1981 (1):

shos

Not Voting (2):

Nobody Special,

SaintKerrigan

Final Vote Count of Day 1

shos

(10):

Slandaar

,

Not_Mafia

,

Hoopla

, jasonT1981, SleepyKrew, Juls,

Slice of Life

, Ser Arthur Dayne, Perpetual Nonsense,

Speedy Saki

SaintKerrigan

(2): Oversoul, Desperado

Not_Mafia

(2):

Imperium

, Sugoku Sugoi

Slice of Life

(1): helium-3
Juls (1): Feu et Vol
jasonT1981 (1):

shos

Not Voting (2):

Nobody Special

,

SaintKerrigan

2 points here:

1. both the leading wagons were on town and neither of them were really getting pushed anywhere. overall I get the feeling scum were dividing and conquering, but then they couldn't push anything through by themselves and had to put more votes on the leading wagon (shos) in order to push the lynch through. this rules out PN (them unvoting and going to vote jason near DL and then voting shos again like that doesn't make much sense from this POV) and makes me think 2 or more scum in {jason, SKrew, Juls, SAD}.

also, unless all 4 scum were on the lynch wagon, there has to be scum off the shos wagon. POE out of those ppl gives Oversoul as the most likely candidate. also, both Oversoul and Desp had vote parked on SaintK the whole time and it makes sense from a scum POV for one scum to sit back and avoid the lynch wagons when both of them are on town.

2. if you look at the D1 VCs you'll find SKrew was on literally every single major wagon through the entire D1. same thing with D2.

atm I'm thinking it really is just jason/SKrew and I'm worrying too much. I think I might have been wrong about oversoul but I wanna see how the rest plays out first.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

yeah. I'm leaning oversoul for 3rd scum but I'm not at all sure about it. I'm still not convinced on juls scum but I'm biased bc I had a really big townread on her.

i wouldn't necessarily rule out all four scum on the shos wagon, btw. oversoul just makes more sense with the way d2 played out than sad or nonsense.

it's a possibility, but I think it makes a lot of sense for there to be one scum sitting back and avoiding the giant clusterfuck of wagons

I see what you mean about oversoul. overall I think a jason lynch is the right move now if only for the fact it'd confirm a lot of shit and I have no idea who the remaining scum could be if it's not him - on the other hand, shit makes so much more sense if he is scum.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

vote: jason
L-1

[Sugoku Sugoi]

^nvm that's L-2

[Sugoku Sugoi]

vote: skrew

we're not ready for a lynch yet and we're having second thoughts about jason scum. his recent posts also look town.

in the meantime, skrew's claim is p obviously bullshit and I agree SKrew's push on jason is shallow as hell.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I don't recall what it is but I'm pretty convinced he is scum based on the flow of his votes, his interaction with Jason and lack of providing any reasons, sheer POE and your points about how he unvotes Slandaar at L-1. Just waiting on the rest of the town to pile their votes on.

---

On a related note, Arthur feels incredibly town for asking for that hammer on Skrew because it would have sabotaged scum's plan which would have been to fake a guilty and create chaos.

Desp, I am not opposed to an oversoul lynch but Skrew is more obvious I think, and he has more votes on him so why don't we do Skrew first and look at OS and re-evaluate Jason tomorrow. I have a theory about OS as well which I want to think about a little bit and discuss with Pie.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

None of our posting was "over the top," we gave our reasons for hammering Slandaar. I don't think we should be townread for "over-the-top" posting and I pointed it out to Desp as well. I am generally a verbose, wall-type player regardless of alignment so that doesn't mean anything either way.

I can see why you'd suspect us since we had Slandaar as a secondary suspect which is the place scum generally use to place their scumbuddies. But that's just the way it turned out. We as town had a scum player as our second suspect. We can't help that. Some of our actions would make sense for scum and we can't help that either. We as town had those reads and we played in a way that we thought would most help our scumreads get lynched.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

You did read Slandaar's posting at the end of D2, didn't you? Because I am wondering if you missed it:

I think putting a cop at L-1 before they post a result on someone not voting them is... bad to say the least.

This is him crumbing a guilty on us.

In the hypothetical scenario where Slandaar was town, if he had an inno on us, he would just claim it instead of making the post above. Or even if he said it as policy, he would still claim the result as there is no need to delay. Not doing so means that he was about to claim a guilty and was afraid of us hammering him. In the hypothetical where he is town and gets a guilty on us, the above post is exactly what he would make. Except we knew we were town, and we knew he can't have a guilty on us and implying that was equal to scumclaiming to us. Then I hammered before he could create a ton of chaos.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

post 1706: let's get the votes off slandaar under the guise of "not splitting the votes between 'scumreads'."

the last time I was in a game where our attention was divided between scum we almost lost bc of it. I thought town was doing an amazing job converging on reads and I didn't want the same thing to happen here.

...keeps on going full throttle on jason even though the slandaar wagon is the one picking up momentum and he was supposedly a "scumread" anyway. post 1788 and post 1792 (the call for jason to be the center of attention).

...........
what the fuck were you expecting me to push him about? Slan was being a giant lurkfuck, doing literally 0, and the posts he did make didn't accomplish anything, they were just kind of there. there was nothing tangible to point to and probe about. on the other hand, jason had done some things that were objectively scummy.

also, Slan was always a POE read. at that point I was very ok with a lynch on one of our POE reads, even if it wasn't jason. there's nothing more annoying than when no one is willing to compromise, and, as I said, I didn't want us to end up dividing our attention between 2 scum.

once both wagons get down the wire (slandaar's is at L2 and jason's at L3), we get a perfuctory meh-filled "i'd be ok with a slandaar lynch" post 1808.

as I said, there was nothing tangible for me to push him about, and I didn't want to be too stubborn about jason.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

re: Oversoul's SKrew vote bus.jpg

*Mod note: This was picked up as a vote for juls and the colon has been removed.

Desp's 2349 is . if jason is actually town, it's setting up for another town lynch that would bring the game straight into LYLO.

we agree on SS, helium, feu, Juls, and SAD as town. we think PN is probably town but we aren't 100%. scum should be in {Desp, Oversoul, SKrew, jason} with Desp the most likely to be town out of those 4.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

mod: we're voting SKrew

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I'm having a lot of trouble seeing a jason-scum SKrew-town scenario with this

it's either SKrew-scum jason-town or scum x scum. which is exactly why I want a SKrew lynch right now as opposed to a jason lynch

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Desp's 2349 is . if jason is actually town, it's setting up for another town lynch that would bring the game straight into LYLO.

/shrug, you can see it that way if you want but the point is that if jason is scum, you're conftown. if he's town, you could definitely be scum and i'd have no problem helping helium lynch you.

This is just bad. You've played several more games with me (and probably with Pie) I think than Helium has. Why would you let Helium's read override yours? And if you are null-reading us, that's bad too.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Um, no. Mollie has this retarded idea that when people don't interact with her, it is because they are scum as opposed to because she is annoying to interact with and are you actually fucking buying that crap? You not telling her she is being emotional and actually pushing that angle is concerning as hell. Like, you've seen my towngame up close in Tales and also in NY169. You've seen Pie's town and scum games and you are actually telling me it is possible we are scum here when most of my play fits my town meta to a T and Pie is so blatantly obvtown it hurts.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

Beast, we haven't talked a lot but both Pie and I think that Jason's posts at the point where he thought he was being lynched felt town. I also thought that he looked more town with the argument between him and SleepyKrew. Did Post 2118 change your mind on him?

[Sugoku Sugoi]

@ f16: why are you so concerned with talking me out of a read that i don't even believe in yet? it's weird.

Because your reasons for townreading us are bad. First you read us as town for bad reasoning for hammering Slandaar which isn't true. The reasoning was relatively straightforward.

Now you are townreading us because you think Jason is scum and we don't make sense together which is also a really weak reason for a read as opposed to any of our posting on its own merits.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I didn't "criticize" your read as much because I thought you were likely town but I pointed out that you were off about your reasoning:

wrong

everything that happened at the end of the day (from them asking why i unvoted after such a scummy claim to their convoluted reason for hammering) was insanely over the top for scum on scum violence.

I don't think there was anything convoluted about my reason for hammering. I agree that it probably wouldn't have turned out that way had we been scum but I feel it is pretty straightforward. Slandaar was posturing to claim a guilty result on us so I hammered him before he and his scumbuddies could create chaos.

In any case, why do I need to point out your reasoning was off right at the time you provided it? There's always stuff in the game I don't comment on to come back to it later although that wasn't the case here.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

falcon i get the feeling we're just talking past each other at this point

That's really not helping but I'd be more comfortable in you being town if you actually read us using solid reasoning. Because calling us town by saying our reasoning for hammering Slandaar is convoluted doesn't make any sense and it is just compounded by the fact that you now call us town because an associative tell is really weak. But okay, I'll grant that Mollie's wall didn't influence you either way and that's good.

[Sugoku Sugoi]

I know why you are townreading us (conditionally). I think it is weak.