Touhou UPick 3 - [Game Over]

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #66 (isolation #0) » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:50 am

The replies in themselves don't really help but I figure you'd doublecheck your meta references as scum considering you've spent long periods of time looking for games where you haven't bussed your buddies to reference in other games so eh

You have clearly spent time looking up SB's meta, but we're...what...three hours in to the game? This appears to be unusually prepared for somebody you just vote switched away from, especially when you seem to provide no reason for voting Shadoweh.

Can you please explain why you want Shadoweh dead?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #82 (isolation #1) » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:32 pm

Meta
Serene Forest

We talk about ongoing mafia games we're in

In case you aren't aware,

don't do this

for games on this site.

Serene Forest

My role is negative utility so target me at your own discretion.

Is this true? We have a whole bunch of people voting you already with more likely to join in. So if you just made this up to dissuade players from voting, you'd better back it up or tell the truth now.

Serene Forest

His first thought in the game revolves around bussing which is pretty indicative of a scum mindset, in his home forum it might have been the usual joke regardless of alignment but he's less likely to joke about his hardbussing meta as town in a community that doesn't really recognize that meta yet, and he isn't that involved with.

I actually think this is quite a plausible reason to vote SB, because scum claiming in RVS is distressingly common in Shrine Maiden (our most recent game, in fact). So I am curious why you abandoned your quite solid vote on SB for what appears to be a terrible bandwagon hop on to Shadoweh.

While I'm here, I hate Thgkdms 65 because it is a lot of text that gets it's point across in a fairly convoluted fashion. Be more clear.

Cut by SB
Please tell me more about 'sidelines'.
Please talk more about why Serene Forest is town.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #112 (isolation #2) » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:26 pm

Serene Forest

SB is more calculating and careful as scum

I want to be clear on this.

Your initial vote on SB was because he was being reckless.
And now you think he is town because scum!SB would not be so reckless.

It appears you are getting your story mixed up. There doesn't appear to be a town motivation for this.

VOTE: Serene Forest

I want to see your vote motivation for Shadoweh, and 'Wanting to vote for a lurker' won't cut it this early in the phase. It looks like a bandwagon hop so until you provide something tangible, that's what I'll assume it is.

SB is also on my list for 86

@Relentless I'm pretty sure in past games where he tryharded early (ITTD and Big NOCers iirc?) he was under heavy pressure for a while afterwards so I feel like he'd be cautious about doing it again here if he was scum.

'Serene is probably town because scum!Serene would be more careful' is not a valid reason. It's 50% of Serene's argument for why they aren't voting you.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #140 (isolation #3) » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:14 pm

he's trying to be try hard while sitting in the back burner

Quantify this statement.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #147 (isolation #4) » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:23 pm

All these people are from Shrine Maiden:
ActionDan
Shadoweh
SB
Sky_Paladin
Kilgamayan

There may be others under different names, such as Rylia Crestfall.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #211 (isolation #5) » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:45 pm

I'm not a fan of announcing cards being used, since that gives away a lot of very useful information to the mafia. EG who is using an a card and might be a good target for misdirection, who is not using a card and might be a good target for elimination before they can use their cards, just off the top of my head.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #238 (isolation #6) » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:41 pm

PIE

from a town POV it would make more sense to vote as soon as you get a scum read instead of sitting around and waiting

That is what I did. I asked a number of questions to Serene Forest, SB, and Rylia. I voted SF because their response to pressure was apparently to change their story and claim they had some reason for voting Shadoweh. It looks like baloney to me.

If I removed my vote because it wasn't popular right now, then there's no point applying pressure.

the point about being "reckless" is more of a straw man than an actual point.

How would

you

describe Serene Forests backflip on SB?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #240 (isolation #7) » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:43 pm

I do think using a vote to pressure someone you're not 100% convinced is town is a better use of said vote

100% agree and this is my play.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #244 (isolation #8) » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:01 pm

@Pie

then you usually withhold votes until you're relatively sure someone is scum?

Yes. Doubly so in a game where voting can have unintended side effects. My most recent town game on Shrine Maiden I didn't vote in RVS at all despite questioning several players.

what I'm saying is it would have made more sense to jump on Serenes as soon as you first started pushing him instead of waiting until he "changed his story"

I couldn't vote Serene as soon as I started pushing, because he only changed his story in response to questioning. That is why I questioned first. If I voted first, that would mean I had predetermined to vote him, and that was not the case.

I was also trying to determine if there is some scum motivation for SB and Serene's apparent mutual defends of each other. I think this is the case, so I want to pressure this relationship.
SB had 0 votes and with 10 to lynch, 1 vote isn't much pressure. Serene already had some votes, so putting another one there is more likely to yield useful information in response to pressure.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #284 (isolation #9) » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:10 am

Just passing by - will do a full wall/response to questions when I get up.

His reasoning for voting SF is based entire of a misconception of SF's posts, (snip) He's also accusing SB of being scum for saying SF is town, and he's pushing only this and pretty much just sitting around on everything else.

SF: Don't like use of meta, but his reasoning for clearing SB are pretty sound to me so

One of these things is not like the other.

You say that you don't agree with my vote on Serene Forest, but here you support that you don't like why he cleared SB. That's the entire basis of why I am voting Serene Forest, which you clearly understood yet label 'a misconception'.

I've asked Serene Forest to clarify a number of alarming statements that they made, and they've since vanished. It is natural to keep the focus of my inquiry there. If I go off and, for example, pursue Rylai Crestfall for her RVS park vote and hypocritical stance on maintaining it, I'll lose the pressure I put on Serene Forest - which so far has yielded a surprising number of votes against me for terrible reasons.

I am not 'sidelining' or 'backburning' or 'slamming down a book'. I want to see content from SF because so far, what I have seen is suspicious. If the quality of the posting improves, I'll look elsewhere. There is nothing more natural.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #394 (isolation #10) » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:31 pm

Kilga, can you explain why hate my vote so much but have no issues with zMuffin, when (to my understanding) we are essentially both voting Serene for the same thing?

It seems pretty hypocritical for you to call me out and ignore Muffin.

(maybe try 'Sky' instead of 'SP').

I thought I would have more time but I have to work. I'll finish the wall later.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #431 (isolation #11) » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:42 pm

My general scum hunting theory goes something like this: Players are always trying to improve the strength of their vote. Mafia have to fabricate their vote in some way. So I want to analyse why players voted (or didn't vote) in the expectation that we should see players improving the quality of their vote. If they don't behave in ways that make sense, then I have to consider if they have some kind of ulterior motive for their action. I always want to apply 'Because they are mafia' as the reason why.

We expect terrible votes to happen in RVS. The reason I was driving attention at Serene was because they had made a

great

vote and then changed it to a RVS wagon vote. That decreased the strength of their vote, and that provokes the question of 'Why would you willingly move to a weaker position?' -> because you are scum. We should always ask this question and failing to do so, failing to hold people accountable for their votes, is how scum wins games. You all know this, we are all experienced players. That is why it was, frankly, bizarre that Rylai/Kilga/Pie were voting me for challenging Serene, and argued semantics over reckless-or-not-reckless. It was always about "Why did you change your vote?" which Serene said "I have some secret reason that I don't want to share right now" and later eventuated to "I wanted to apply pressure to Shadoweh". But Shadoweh had not posted, so there was no reason to 'apply pressure', and equally this reason could have been said at the time, and not postponed. It increasingly weakened Serene's position. 'Why would you willingly move to a weaker position' -> because you are scum.

I can accept that Serene might have thought "Oh, I screwed up, my case on SB is bad" and unvoted. But the sudden flip on to a new wagon screams

player is desperate to vote somewhere/anywhere rather than be caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

"What is your motivation?" -> because you are scum.

So I don't like Serene, I don't like their defenders (SB/Kilga/Rylai/Pie), and I don't like that we have players who haven't voted at all yet.

In depth:
24
SB votes for Pie: Joke about bussing.
30
Serene's vote for SB over his bussing joke because

the joke is out of place in a non-native forum

. On it's own that is a pretty weak reason but hey, RVS, let it fly.
32
Serene follows up with "Can you link games outside SF where you brought up the joke as town?" SB has played a lot of games on MotK, and with a join date of July 2012 at MS, presumably here too.

This should have been an easy request to meet.

"Sure, here is my last game as town...(link)"
Instead, the response is:
44
"idk i've played like 2 games on MS and most of my recent games on motk were scumgames before mafia kind of died there."

So let's go look at the Shrine Maiden games. SB modded our most recent one, so the one before that:
NOTV2 - Town, first page, joke about

not

being scum.
AOC - Town, no jokes.
NSP - Town, no jokes.
Containment - Scum, first post is a bus joke.
Dr Wars - Town, no jokes.
MB - Town, self votes and claims bussing self (...)
UF - Scum, no jokes.
AUS - town, no jokes.

In summary, for games dating back to the start of 2014:
As town, SB has

once joked about bussing or being scum

.
SB has

once joked about being scum

while scum (50% of scum games).
Overall, SB making a joke about bussibg or scumming is

more likely

to come from scum!SB, but not conclusively.

However, this does fly in the face of SB's claim that 'most of my recent games on motk were scumgames' when most of his recent games were town. He lied.

"Why did you lie about your action?" I posit that it was, in fact, a serious mistake. My feeling is that SB joking about bussing probably correlates with him actually being scum. It was actually the second time he downplayed the seriousness of Serene's question; the first time when he misread it and said "i joked about it in cyou're twice after a skim" in 40.

So this is a fairly serious point raised by Serene, and after further investigation, if they'd stayed voting SB I would probably be sheeping them instead of voting them.

Let's see what else SB has done today.

The main thing was his vote for me. Let's look at the post.

In post 80, SB wrote:I'm more inclined to think Serene is town because I don't see him going this tryhard as scum on an RVS push when it was more likely to backfire in his face than get some actual suspicion on me.

UNVOTE: pieguyn
VOTE: Sky Paladin

He feels like he's just staying on the sidelines I guess? I'm not really sure how to describe it.

So there's two things SB is saying here.
1 - Serene is town because 'scum wouldn't be this tryhard' when 'it was more likely to backfire'.
2 - Sky is scum because 'staying on the sidelines/not really sure why."

Point 1 - There's no way that Serene could know in advance that it would 'be more likely to backfire'. So this point doesn't stand. There's no reason for saying it except to defend/buddy Serene.
Point 2 - 'Staying on the sidelines' appears to be in response to post where I asked Serene to explain their vote on Shadoweh. So this is in, itself, also defending Serene.

In other words, this vote and post was all about suppressing attention on Serene, and highlighting attention on a player who was threatening (but not yet voting) Serene.

SB acknowledges that he screwed up in 86 when he states:
"Sky looked like he's making an attempt to look useful but wasn't really sticking his neck out and doing much. The post that cut me while I was writing this is kind of a counterexample though so meh."

SB's post acknowledges that he has a poor vote but doesn't strengthen it.
"Why would you willingly move to a weaker position?" -> You are scum.

SB addresses his vote in 266 and restates his 'sticking his neck out' comment. We can see that his point is, again, mostly interested in downplaying Serene, and highlighting Sky.

408 - A return to the vote for Pie.
Reason for voting Pie:

I also think Pie saying that he'd rather form reads from play than rolespec (somewhere around 170 iirc) and then not really doing much is sort of weird? It sort of looks like posturing. I also feel like when he got his Rylai suspicion the defense of GIF was really over the top considering that others had been saying that GIF hadn't done much seemed to get a free pass?

Having re-read from 150 to 250, I didn't see anything that lined up with what SB said. There was a discussion between zMuffin and Pie about reads based on meta.

There was, however, this post at 199 from Pie, wherein Pie supports another player (Relentless) push on SB during his conversation with zMuffin. In fact, Pie mentions SB a lot from 200+. Except then there is an inexplicable shift in attitude from Pie, who suddenly sheeps Kilga's vote on Sky, which is in direct opposition to everything Pie had been saying about SB, and in disagreement with her own later point in 267 when she agrees with Relentless that she didn't like Serene abandoning their vote. On the surface, I'm not sure what to make of it, except to note that Pie ends up voting for Rylai, which is the second half of why SB voted for Pie.

Pie and Muffin keep on talking. Pie: 277

the only scum read I have is Sky_Paladin but at this point the only reasoning behind it is I still don't see how he gets "reckless" from Serenes' initial reasoning.

Pie has also clarified that she has some issues with Serene but doesn't see Serene's actions as scummy at this point. She's confused her story here; originally she was saying my vote was bad because I said SB was reckless.

"Why are you confused about why you voted?" -> Because you are scum.

Rylai appears in 282. We care about Rylai because SB votes Pie because Pie suspects Rylai. OK.

What does Rylai have to say (Rylai is currently voting Sky for 'being on the backburner')

People I don't feel fond of:
GiF: Definitely hasn't contributed
Sky Paladin: His reasoning for voting SF is based entire of a misconception of SF's posts, and he's trying to push that as a kind of a gotcha kind of thing. He's also accusing SB of being scum for saying SF is town, and he's pushing only this and pretty much just sitting around on everything else.
AD: No

There are plenty of people who haven't contributed, so it's odd that GiF would be singled out. It's additionally relevant because SB mentions Pie's defense of GiF and suspicion of Rylai as the basis for his vote.
I dismissed Rylai's point against me in 284 as "You're contradicting yourself", Rylai apparently agrees and shifts their vote a little later.
And randomly picks out AD. For what?

In 291, Pie empty votes Rylai. We can assume it's in direct response to Rylai's scummy 282, because she clarifies in 294.
This is the first time I can see that Pie singles out GiF for anything, and it's specifically to say what I said just now -> There are plenty of people who haven't contributed, so it's odd that GiF would be singled out.
It's relevant because SB stated, in his vote for Pie, "I also feel like when he got his Rylai suspicion the defense of GIF was really over the top considering that others had been saying that GIF hadn't done much seemed to get a free pass?".

Pie argues with Sakura a bit over emotions from 300+.

Pie, quite justifiably in my opinion, asks Dan why he is townclearing Rylai in 359.

Pie mentions GiF in the context of

improving her opinion of Rylai

in 382, when she says:
"now that he explained it's more that GIF is being here but doing absolutely nothing while he is here, it looks better."

And finally we catch up to SB's vote and post in 408.

I also think Pie saying that he'd rather form reads from play than rolespec (somewhere around 170 iirc) and then not really doing much is sort of weird? It sort of looks like posturing. I also feel like when he got his Rylai suspicion the defense of GIF was really over the top considering that others had been saying that GIF hadn't done much seemed to get a free pass?

IMO Pie had said a lot of things, but one thing she had not done was an 'over the top defense of GiF'. She had mounted a basic case on Rylai, and she had mentioned approval of pressure on SB. She had mentioned her opinions on several players, including me. So I don't think it's posturing. I don't agree with many of the things she says because she seems to contradict herself at times, and these are points SB should have picked up and made in his vote if he was serious about it. Serious as Bananas.

SB will later address this 'seriousness' when interrogated by zMuffin, "Over the top was bad wording in hindsight, it was more about how I felt it was weird how he jumped at Rylai for saying that GIF was weird when there were other people like Relentless who did it for similar reasons but I don't remember pie finding them questionable for it."

It was not weird. It was weird for Rylai to pluck GiF out of thin air.

I think the motivation for SB's vote is purely because she is pressuring somebody SB doesn't want her to pressure, and that's probably Rylai. In any case, the reason behind the vote is shallow and looks fake.

I think SB and Rylai are probably both scum, and it's probably no coincidence they both changed their vote at around the same time.

I think Serene is bad, but SB is worse.

I think there is a better-than-average chance that SB's bus joke is because he is scum. I also think that the basis for his vote on me, and later vote switch to Pie, is fabricated. I feel that his contribution to the game so far is mostly clarifying things he said previously, which is a polite way of saying changing your story.

I don't really trust Pie because she does flip around a lot. I think there's something rotten amongst the group of Serene/SB/Pie/Kilga/Rylai, and I think SB is probably the best flip for today. I also think Kilga has five votes and all of them are awful and I'll get to that later.

UNVOTE: Serene Forest
VOTE: SB

I have a lot of work remaining but this will do for now.

((@TODO evaluate Serene ISO))
((@TODO respond to Pie #242))
((@TODO ISO Relentless In post 352, The_Relentless wrote:idk dude I just strung some random silly sounding words together as a joke. if that's his actual username then that's pretty funny -> nope.))
((@TODO Kilga))

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #631 (isolation #12) » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:21 pm

I'll summarise my wall post for the mouth-breathers.

Part 1 - SB only ever makes bus jokes about other players when he is scum. This game, he has a bus joke about another player. So, according to his meta, he is scum.
Part 2 - SB lied about his recent game history when Serene brought this up.

We established, by looking at the most recent eight Shrine Maiden games that SB has played -
SB was scum and joked about bussing another player one time.
SB was scum and didn't joke at all one time.
In total, SB was scum twice.
SB was town and never joked about bussing another player (he joked about bussing himself once).
In total, SB was town six times.

If we plug this in to a truth table:

..................SCUM..TOWN
BUS JOKE......1........0
NO BUS.........1........6

So, this game we have a bus joke from SB. We cross out the NO BUS table, and this is what we get:

..................SCUM..TOWN
BUS JOKE......1........0

There's a straight 50% chance that SB is scum purely on statistical analysis. If you can point to somebody else who has a greater-than-50%-chance of being scum, I'll vote them.

Serene asked SB to post town games where he joked about bussing. SB couldn't do it. He said that the reason he couldn't do it was because he had been playing scum games only, recently, on Shrine Maiden. However, when we investigated this, we found that this was not the case, and SB had lied. SB can immediately dismiss this point by linking a town game where he joked about bussing another player. He can't do this. So we have to consider if the reason why he can't do it, is because he doesn't make bus jokes as town. And if that's the case, we should lynch him.

So we have two points here to examine.
1 - Did SB joke about bussing Pie because he is scum? It's likely.
2 - Did SB lie about his joke? Until he can link a town + bus another game, yes.
2b - Why would SB lie about his scum game if he was town?

Part 3 - SB voted Sky for terrible reasons.
Part 4 - SB re-votes Pie for terrible reasons.

***

SB posted some more since then and I'll address it in a new post.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #632 (isolation #13) » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:42 pm

On an unrelated note, I've read the exchange between zMuffin and pretty much everybody else, and I generally agree with everything Muffin said, except for the bit where he was scumreading Ryel since before the game began. It seemed serious and needs an explanation At Some Point.

OK SB 460
"I'm pretty sure you're missing at least two of my scumgames from that list anyway, including literally the most recent game I played on the site."
Please link the games you think I missed.

SB
"I already said why I called it over the top, and you've acknowledged this, so whatever."

I also think that the basis for his vote on me, and later vote switch to Pie, is fabricated. I feel that his contribution to the game so far is mostly clarifying things he said previously, which is a polite way of saying changing your story.

SB
"I don't know how you expect me to go over people's entire ISOs when I was basically making rushed posts with limited time left."
If you are making an RVS vote, I don't care what reason you happen to make up.
If you are putting down votes with an explanation to justify that vote then I expect those explanations to make sense.

I basically summarise SB's 460 as a whine-fest.

Iiit's not fair Sky is voting me~~~~

I know, it's terrible.

Let's move on.

SB479
"It doesn't read like he found scum/scum interactions that he believes in, it reads like he's trying to overjustify the scumread and he's trying to make everyone who pressed him look awkward when realistically a theoretical 5 man scumteam (or a large portion of it) isn't form the Ultimate Mafia Voting Block on Sky just because he pressed one of their buddies."

I don't think ALL of you are scum. I just think SOME of you are scum.

"Saying "oh I think scum is in [large chunk of the playerlist]" is also completely useless unless you're a Sensor."

You mean like when Kilga voted five players?

"I don't really suspect pie anymore."
You're number one scum read became a town read. Really. Why is that?

"It feels like they stepped up and their explanation of why they were torn on Sakura came across as genuine waffling rather than something she faked."

"genuine waffling"

Since when was waffling aka non-content-posting a basis for town clearing? Fabricated justification.

blah blah blah

Look.

Basically SB is voting me because I voted him. It's OMGUS.

Do better.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #633 (isolation #14) » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:59 pm

Also, while I'm here, zMuffin, could you talk about what you don't like on my SB case, please?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #678 (isolation #15) » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:45 pm

In the event SB just killed me, players please take note of his hysterical over-reaction to my case and the

single vote on his wagon

and vig him accordingly. Many thanks.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #683 (isolation #16) » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:48 pm

I have to go to work so I can't stick around. Snipes!

Dan - Nothing Kilga has done has been 'meticulous' except to vote all of the players at some point.
Ooba - Has claimed serial killer in a game that has no ITP. Will strongly reconsider getting back on to that wagon.

Dan again - SB's post seemed to make light of the fact that he was referring me by past tense when asking others to justify his action.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #685 (isolation #17) » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:51 pm

Seeing as I'm probably dead, reads

SXTLHGaiden - null
GuyInFreezer - town
zMuffinMan - town
Sakura Hana - scum
pieguyn - scum
notscience - null
Ankamius - scum
Drezi - scum
ActionDan - scum
Shadoweh - town
thdgkdms - town
SB - scum
ooba - lol SK?
Kilgamayan - scum
Rylai Crestfall - scum
Katsuki - maybe claimed scum re: SB = Serious Bananas
Malakittens - town
Kagami - null

Happy to defend/clarify any of these if I'm still around when I get back :V

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #740 (isolation #18) » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:10 am

Yay I'm not dead (yet).

Muffins 634 made me re-consider my case on SB somewhat and I was looking forward to a reasonable discussion with SB, however when I logged on and saw he'd used a spell card on me I assumed it was either to vig or silence me. I had ten minutes before I had to go to work so I just tried to put out anything I could think of. Now I have some more time, however...

SB if you ever decide at some point this day phase that I'm probably not scum, please let me know if I have to worry about your spell card or not.

Kagami

I'm a night-evolving SK, I gain one additional shot per night (essentially I get as many shots as the night number). So a massclaim come D4/5 might be a good idea so that I can just choose which faction I want to win. I'll probably just pick whichever faction has more players that I'm fond of. <3

I should add that I'm lynchproof and possibly bulletproof~

I was lol until...

I didn't fakeclaim
. FG needs to update his ruleset.

I don't really care about the night-evolving additional shot lynchproof bulletproof crap, but Kagami claimed ITP in a game that specifically has no ITP.

I initially listed Kagami/Relentless as scum because of somehow guessing that SB meant Serious Bananas and stating it was just a guess. If I saw SB I'd have guessed 'Super Ball' or something else. I think SB is too oblique to pluck Serious Bananas out of. So I figured Kagami is in a neighbourhood of some sort and doesn't want to admit it. And why SB would come up in conversation is anybody's guess, enough to warrant his full name coming out, is anybody's guess, but of course I'll say it's because they're scumbuddies ^_~

After I started writing this wall post though and was coming up with a great theory about why SB and Relentless were scum buddies with Kilga, I remembered there was no day chat so I was :C

But that claim.

This stuff is mostly replying to SB and it's long so it's spoilered. If you're interested in scum reading me or SB, I think it's worth your time.

Spoiler:

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #746 (isolation #19) » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:48 am

SB

I think a pretty big difference between town and scum Sky is that the latter tends to spend more time tunneling on one target as opposed to trying to figure out the game

Please go check Draft mafia. This game has a lot more in common with anything else I've played.
This game I started on Serene, then advanced to you. That's not tunneling on one target.

especially when he apparently has /9 scumreads/ but has pressed a total of two of them over the course of the game

As explained previously: I simply don't have time to properly evaluate everybody. I do a general sort, then drill down, and then move on when satisfied (or a more scummy player appears). While drilling Serene, I discovered you. Now you are being drilled. Either I'll get you as flipped scum, or I'll move on to somebody more likely.

Make 1-2 sentences minimum for every single scumread. I'm having a lot of trouble wrapping my head around why anyone would have this list.

This list was INITIALLY composed off the top of my head based on my gut feelings. I'll clarify and amend as necessary.

I had ten minutes to post and I had not interacted with every player in a meaningful way yet. In any case...

SXTLHGaiden - null
I wanted to put Gaiden as scum because I feel like they don't exist this game and I can't remember ever seeing them vote. So that normally would be enough for me to put them in the scum wagon, but Muffin thinks he is town and I trust muffin. So he gets null, but I really want to see some content or some kind of decisive action.

GuyInFreezer - town
I started hating both Letties but the other Letty has been very active and making their opinion known. I get the impression they are a mason pair. I don't really have a solid feeling about GiF but I have a good feeling about Thkgdms so GiF gets a clear by association.

zMuffinMan - town
I put a lot of weight in to what zMuffin says. I'm not exactly sheeping him, but often when I've been reading his posts I've been nodding my head and agreeing and feeling like "This guy says what I want to say only faster and people listen." So I intuitively want to trust him, but I'm wary of that 'expert manipulator' under his name.

Sakura Hana - scum
I hate that Sakura is flipping her votes around all over the place and doesn't seem to have any solid opinions. Her passive ability seems more harmful to town than scum. I don't think I've read a case from Sakura. She just exists, and she exists to cause harm.

pieguyn - scum
pieguyn writes a lot more than I do and splits it up over a million awful posts. I hate just about everything pie has ever said, but that's okay, because pie seems to hate it too and changes her opinion every page. At least that's my impression. I think she's noisy, takes up far too much town focus, and even if she's town would consider dayvigging the slot.

notscience - null
I couldn't remember this player standing out in any way so I gave them a null.

Ankamius - scum
When reading this players posts, I often get a feeling that there is something wrong with them. I haven't analysed in depth but I'm basically unhappy with Ankamius and I'm not really sure why. I have time coming up in 2 days RL and I would like to ISO Ank at that time. While I've listed Ank as scum, I'm not comfortable voting them atm because I don't have a concrete reason and I hate to vote without cause.

Drezi - scum
I basically agree with pretty much everything Muffin has said and I was unimpressed with Drezi's response. Drezi actually read my wall and poked at it a bit so I was leaning town on Drezi until Muffin destroyed him. I want to go back and read what Drezi has said, in detail, so I can make a better decision.

ActionDan - scum
My initial assessment of Dan as scum was tainted by the fact that I hate Dan as a player and would dayvig him every game if possible because he always afk's out and gets mislynched in LYLO to lose the game. Usually by me. Dan has also thrown out a number of weird statements that seem completely at odds with game state such as Kilga being meticulous and some other comment about only reading up to page 7 or something. Enough to make me go 'wtf Dan?'.
However upon reflection he has posted an uncharacterful amount of content this game, including one wall post. I also appreciate that he apparently went to check the AUS game and posted what appears to be a measured and unbiased response. Scum!Dan could easily have twisted this to be something that would bear low-hanging-fruit in a later phase.
I have yet to evaluate the actual merit to ALL of his content, but it exists. So I am amending my read from 'scum' to...cough....gasp....vomit....ughrhrgh......I can't say it. I can't say it if it's Dan. Let's say he's null.

Shadoweh - town
Having just lynched scum!Shadoweh in our previous game, and played as scum buddies with Shadoweh in another game, I feel confident being able to read scum!Shadoweh. So far I haven't seen scum!Shadoweh. In particular: scum!Shadoweh is very passive and reactive. This game she has been active and direct. If she's scum, it's a massive improvement. I wouldn't lynch her without a confirm guilty from a flipped cop. For now.

thdgkdms - town
I initially HATED thdkgms Lily business but she's asking pertinent questions and keeping up the pressure on Serene. Her vote has been defended and she has posted regularly. IF she's scum, at least she's posting content and we can catch that. But for now I think the Lily pair is probably town and I'm happy to keep them around for another day phase at least.

SB - scum
Welp.

ooba - scum
I init listed as lol-sk, because I'd confused this replacement with the other one.
I feel that Serene improved their content significantly. I'm disappointed they replaced out.
When last I visited Serene, I pegged them as scum because of their vote switch on to Shadoweh. I have yet to properly re-examine Serene but I'm coloring them as scum until I have had a chance to do so. However, my fire of hatred has put Ooba down to #3 after Kilga, so that's not a priority.

Kilgamayan - scum
Kilga is scum because I categorically disagree with everything he's said on the skim read. In particular I feel strongly that he is outright lying when he posts about me. Earlier I commented that Dan didn't twist a situation into something that could be subverted? I feel like whenever Kilga has mentioned me he has done this subversion thing. I feel deep down in my soul that Kilga is utterly evil and cannot be redeemed in any possible way. I am sure he is Miko, the person who can listen to ten conversations at once, and that has emerged in this game as vote for as many players as you damn well please. But WHO you are voting for is not as important as WHY you are voting. I feel that Kilga doesn't explain his votes, that the WHY is missing, and that for good of our peaceful way of life, we should lynch the scum.
Kilga is my #2 pick after SB and I will be drilling there next.

Rylai Crestfall - scum
Rylai basically doesn't exist except for some awful votes and is a lurkslot. I'd be happy for us to double lynch (player x that is not me) + Rylai. Sadly I wonder if this is more taking out the trash than actual scum hunting.

Katsuki - maybe claimed scum re: SB = Serious Bananas
My scum read at the time was because I thought he had shared a QT with a scum SB and that's how he got Serious Bananas. But that's clearly impossible unless scum are allowed to talk pre-game.
So now I just kind of want to lynch him for claiming unlynchable ITP.
Relentless himself generally didn't ping my radar for being scum.

Malakittens - null
An initial town read because I have a soft spot for Mala since she was my first mod in the newbie game. She read my town wall and liked it and I will be a liar if I didn't say I feel better about her because of it.
However as picked up by somebody else, she hasn't voted yet and...actually I can't remember anything of merit coming from Mala this game.
So I had to devalue the slot to null, at least for now.

Kagami - null
I couldn't remember anything this player did and I still can't.

Cut by Pie. Well I'll post this and read what she has to say.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #749 (isolation #20) » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:10 am

Pie, what suddenly prompted you to read my wall if you hadn't done so already? Because it looks more like you wanted to put your toe in to the water by voting Drezi, got called on it by Shadoweh, and then accused me of doing the same thing.

Ankamius 703 - I like this post. My re-evaluation of Ank may have to come sooner than I thought.

@Kilga

Sky Paladin's recent behavior is not what I would expect of a townie thinking they've just been dayvigged, particularly the completely unsubstantiated list of reads where more people are filed under scum than town.

Exactly what recent behavior is what you would expect of a townie think they've just been dayvigged?

I no longer have time to respond to Pie and after reading it feel no response is necessary and I am going to handwave dismiss it as emotional misrepresentation that aims to mislead by appeal to authority. I'll deal with it later if required.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #750 (isolation #21) » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:14 am

(which incidentally makes me pretty sure Drezi is town if Sky_Paladin is scum here)

Evaluating 'if player x is town, then player y is scum' or 'if player y is scum, then player x is town' is basically the most useless thing you can do, because WIFOM and without a flip before hand it's meaningless. Get a flip and then do retroactive analysis. Not to mention lining up lynches is scummy.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #752 (isolation #22) » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:25 am

I don't have the half hour spare to deal with it. I appreciate that you did invest a lot of time and I would like to post a proper rebuttal. I can't do that right now.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #753 (isolation #23) » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:28 am

Also I kind of feel like you'll change your mind about everything by the time I get up and I kind of don't want to invest effort in to deflecting you when I would rather be re-evaluating my opinion on Drezi (I don't like that I only have basically a sentence comment on somebody who was forced to claim already) and deciding if my hatred of Kilga's play this game is because he is genuinely scum or if he has actual points about my play and I'm just confbiasing it. I have noted you accuse me of that and it has crossed my mind.

But I'm pretty sure Kilga's scum.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #756 (isolation #24) » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:33 am

Wait a second

@Drezi

Am I correct in stating your role is essentially 'unlimited shot investigator'?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #757 (isolation #25) » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:34 am

Katsuki, you claimed ITP in a game where there are no ITP's.

:V

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #770 (isolation #26) » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:53 am

Katsuki. I've spent roughly half of this day debating wether SB is scum based on a bussing joke. You came in here and claimed ITP and insisted it was serious.
If I didn't scum sort you for your "troll" then frankly I have no business hassling SB.

Thank you for highlighting to town the consistency of my reads and actions. Please keep up the good work.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #813 (isolation #27) » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:49 pm

@Everybody who wants to know why I thought I was vigged

- specifically, Kagami, Muffin

I have a passive ability that conditionally interacts with dayvigs in a way that is beneficial for town. However, the condition wasn't true at the time. I, obviously, don't want to say what this condition is.

I also have a spell card that has a very friendly sounding name that is actually a vig shot. I don't want to say if it's a day/night shot. I also have other spell cards that sound incredibly lethal but aren't.

For these reasons, I was primed to expect a vig shot coming towards me, and the manner in which it happened (SB and I were arguing, he put in a last word and shoots me) seemed to galvanise me into thinking that I had been vigged. And that made me furious, because I have some mid-game utility cards that I wanted to get off before I died.

For anybody who thinks my reaction to being vigged was fake

Let's play a game.

##Shoot (your name)

You have ten minutes in RL to pass on as much town helpful information that you can because you have to go to work and you don't believe you'll get to post again. What do you do? How does it differ to what I did? Do you still think it was faked?

For everybody voting me because I scum sorted you

You are scum sorted because you either aren't posting content or aren't being clear. My objective is to post strong positions and force responses to them. This means when we get a flip it's easier to divide the town up into little knots of conversation and pluck out the scum from them. I detest skulkers. If you want to get out of my scum stack, start posting content and do the opposite of why I put you there.

For everybody who thinks I'm scum

I don't believe it's the scum MO to pick fights with half the playerbase, but never mind.

At the moment the only legitimate vote on me at the moment is SB, and I still maintain that's an OMGUS.

UNVOTE: SB

It is, however, a legitimate vote.

Considering that they are all in the same neighboorhood, what do you think about those reads now?

FFS. No wonder they are spilling over themselves to defend each other. @#)$#$*( Neighbourhoods are the worst role. I don't have time to process it right now.

Oh by the way, we're not masons. We don't even share a PT. (Thus PT-spy proof!)

I appreciate your clarification. OK. GiF in the null/scum slot for no content that I remember.

In post 783, Sakura Hana wrote:
In post 746, Sky_Paladin wrote:I hate that Sakura is flipping her votes around all over the place and doesn't seem to have any solid opinions. Her passive ability seems more harmful to town than scum. I don't think I've read a case from Sakura. She just exists, and she exists to cause harm.

So basically you're scumreading me because:

- My vote switches a lot

This is correct and is part of who i am, whether you like it or not.

- My ability is harmful to town

Is an ability i was given based on my character choice, i can't really do too much about it, besides i disagree that's more harmful to town.

- I haven't made any cases.

I rarely make cases, I prefer poking at people when something pings me.

- I don't have any solid opinions

This is a lie, if you're saying this you aren't even reading my posts.

PEd; @Kagami: Not exactly because too many scum, but I don't like how he's leaving his options open to switch his vote to wherever he likes,
I don't see how anyone would be scumreading pie
tho. Also
i dont like how he's scumreading me because i dont make cases but scumreading pie because he has a lot of text
.

Bold in the last section mine.
Sakura, I scum sorted you because you flip your votes around all over the place, don't appear to have solid opinions, and your passive ability seems more harmful to town. I don't think I've seen a case from you.
You then:
Changed your votes again
Say it's unfair that I'm scum reading Pie and you for different reasons.
Failed to make a case that in any way reflects things I have said

outside of where I said why I was scumsorting you

.

You get out of the scum stack by not playing terribly. What you did was play exactly the way I said you would play because you are scum.

Muffin

i think relentless was from the same forum as them, and pretending not to be. that seems rather obvious

I have no idea if Relentless is from SM :/

Drezi

Am I correct in stating your role is essentially 'unlimited shot investigator'?

The reason I am asking is because it seems like an incredibly OP role when I consider my cards. You're Tewi, the trickster rabbit. I would expect things like roleblock or action misdirection. Not to mention you are sharing a private topic with Muffin, and only Muffin, so the first action would likely be 'hmm lets investigate muffin' and 'oh yes, muffin is town, we are psuedo masons'.

I don't know, Muffin, look at your role pm and consider this. Maybe it's just setup spec and bad but I think Drezi's claim is too good to be true.

***

I'm out of time so I'm going to VOTE: Kilga. I'll write a nice wall when I get back (and re-evaluate if I have to).
The main reason is that Kilga initially voted me in 224 for

I'm not seeing "SB is being reckless" anywhere in SF's (faulty) logic for their original SB vote, so I can't agree with your proposed contradiction, and outside of that...well, there's just not a whole lot of meaningful content here. Post #82 in particular is amusing because it expresses distaste with thgkdms for getting a point across "in a fairly convoluted fashion" when #82 itself doesn't really get any meaningful point across at all. It, like the rest of your posts, remind me of Mala's posts, looking useful without actually being useful.

And has not updated this stance at any point except to say iirc "I haven't seen anything from Sky to change my opinion" which is rubbish, as there's been plenty of discussion with other players, the whole deep drill down with SB, not to mention me thinking I was vigged and putting out my list of reads.

Basically I think he's vote parked scum and idling the phase away.

LIKE I SAID I'll look into it when I get back but I'm out of time :/

If I had a second vote I'd put it in Sakura for being completely awful. But I don't have one, so I can't.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #847 (isolation #28) » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:32 am

In response to Kilga:

I'm not seeing "SB is being reckless" anywhere in SF's (faulty) logic for their original SB vote, so I can't agree with your proposed contradiction

Serene Forest originally voted SB in 30 because:

His first thought in the game revolves around bussing which is pretty indicative of a scum mindset, in his home forum it might have been the usual joke regardless of alignment but he's
less likely to joke about his hardbussing meta as town
in a community that doesn't really recognize that meta yet, and he isn't that involved with.

Emphasis mine for the comparison in just a moment.

I then started picking at Serene Forest for this not so much because of flagging SB for his bus joke but because of his apparently random jump on to Shadoweh, which was not (and will now never be) satisfactorily explained, as indicated in my 66.

Serene Forest responded to some general points but not specifically me in 67.

I don't think SB would reply as absentmindedly as he did if he were scum

So

the contradiction that I picked up

which you are asking for, was where Serene Forest originally voted SB for being unlikely to joke about his hardbussing meta, and then later justified their unvote by saying "I don't think SB would reply as absentmindedly as he did if he were scum."

I continued to press Serene Forest for a clear answer in 82, and I ultimately voted Serene Forest when they posted again and failed to acknowledge any of my questions in any meaningful way.

My vote on Serene Forest, as stated, was:

I want to be clear on this.

Your initial vote on SB was because he was being reckless.
And now you think he is town because scum!SB would not be so reckless.

It appears you are getting your story mixed up. There doesn't appear to be a town motivation for this. I want to see your vote motivation for Shadoweh, and 'Wanting to vote for a lurker' won't cut it this early in the phase. It looks like a bandwagon hop so until you provide something tangible, that's what I'll assume it is.

1

- My case was never about whether SB was or was not reckless, it was always that Serene Forest apparently changed their story retroactively in response to pressure. It was disingenuous for you to push this as if it was my point as a justification for your vote.

"Post #82 in particular is amusing because it expresses distaste with thgkdms for getting a point across "in a fairly convoluted fashion" when #82 itself doesn't really get any meaningful point across at all."

Post 82 critically asks Serene Forest to back up their negative utility claim (a request that was ignored, by the way), and pushes Serene Forest to defend their Shadoweh jump (a request that was also ignored until after I had voted). There was also a request for SB to clarify his case against me. The addendum to Thgdkms was just icing on the cake. This post was not driving a case, but it was clearly intended to advance game state.

2

Your statement seems to be a quite serious misrepresentation whereby you assert "no meaningful content" when there is in fact "meaningful content".

In short, your initial vote was poor and you haven't satisfactorily upgraded it or taken in to account in any meaningful way, any of the future events that have happened from it.

Re: zMuffin and I voting for Serene Forest when zMuffin was not actually voting Serene Forest -

OK I'm generally scratching my head how I got this wrong. I thought zMuffin was voting for Serene Forest. I wrote a lot of things and read a lot of stuff, sometimes things get mixed up. Such perils do befall the humble data entry operator.

Re: Voting for Serene Forest = Defending Serene Forest -

WHY you vote is in most cases more important than WHO you voted. That's what I wrote when I was casing SB and it didn't change from then. Especially in a large game like this. And even more so when said player has apparently a million votes and spends most of them poorly. Your initial vote for Serene Forest was because he questioned SB on his use of meta. When I questioned Serene Forest for the same thing and ultimately voted him because of the failure to answer, you voted me for it.
It doesn't make sense for you to criticise me for doing what was essentially the same thing. That's why I said I hate that you were defending Serene Forest. In hindsight, after reviewing your iso, I feel that if you were serious about evaluating Serene Forest, you would have asked questions, rather than giving thumbs up to some players who were pressuring Serene Forest (Pieguy) and thumbs down to others (me). It feels inconsistent.

If you want this to be the basis of your vote along side that I accused you of defending Serene Forest while voting them, I can't argue that it didn't happen. But I don't see how you can align that with scum intent, so please do clarify.

Your vote on me feels strongly of an OMGUS because of how unimpressive/unsubstantiated it is.

I will concede that

this may be so

. My vote was rushed because hey, ten minutes before work, and I was late for work anyway.
I feel that your scumminess is largely in your dealings with me and I

can

see why you might think I'm not dissuading you because I have not directly engaged you until now. I just completed an ISO which you can review below and there is no slam dunk Kilga-is-scum. I just feel that you're lying and that if you were serious about scum-Sky you would have engaged me rather than just sniped at me.

A list of reads with no context is completely useless

I agree. I simply had no time. I had made an initial attempt to prioritise players but found that there were too many to line up so I just went with what was faster.

That said, I now have put a couple sentences behind each of my reads, and I think that's something.

***

I feel strongly that your vote on me is based on basically nothing and you're clinging on to it because there's no reason not to but that begs the question of what motivation does the scum team have to want to lynch me specifically, and would they show their hand like this. I don't think it's likely.

Until now I had only skimmed your posts and just got a general feeling of 'something is not right' but having read them in depth I can at least see where you are coming from, and I see you have actually invested some effort in checking up other players. I guess I want to see your response as well. But this post was mostly "Why your case is bad" and not "Why Kilga is scum" which suggests to me that I'm on the wrong track here.

There's some odd things that I picked up in your ISO and I guess I want to see your response/other people's thoughts. You've voted for a lot of people but it doesn't seem like you're really interacting with them so much as passing judgement. So I'll leave my vote up for now and reflect on it overnight.

ISO on Kilga behind spoiler.

Spoiler:

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #877 (isolation #29) » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:20 pm

Rylai,
Serene made a big deal that their vote wasn't a bandwagon jump or some such and that it served some greater purpose and then later said it was to apply pressure to a player that hadn't posted yet. They then went afk and turned into Ooba. Since thin the slot hasn't improved at all.
I agreed with the spirit that voting players you want to apply pressure to is a good action and I still do.
I've written a lot of walls though, so people voting me 'to apply pressure' or because I scum read them (eg Sakura Hana, who voted me because I in effect said her play style was scummy without being aware that was her normal play style) need to find a better target.

I'm surprised people are consolidate voting on to me with 48 hours out though given there's a tonne of content, and the main arguments against me is that people don't like me saying their play is scummy.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #878 (isolation #30) » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:22 pm

To copy Pie's style, which apparently is the right way of doing things -

Walk me through why you think I'm scum.
I guess I'll ask Sakura to do the same thing too, since I think she's the most blatantly terrible vote on my wagon.
I presume Ank is consolidate voting and I'm interested to know why he consolidated on to me instead of, say, Ooba.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #879 (isolation #31) » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:25 pm

Rylai

Generally like/agree with Muffin's posts through this. Although the low hanging fruit thing is hilarious.

Sorry, but reading 631 just made me lose brain cells. Also offensive.

I want to know why you found a directed comment of low-hanging-fruit hilarious, but a general mouth-breather comment offensive enough to vote.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #880 (isolation #32) » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:28 pm

Also, for Kilga -

Here's an example where I mixed up another player's name in a way that can't possibly be misconstrued as some kind of scum play.

On an unrelated note, I've read the exchange between zMuffin and pretty much everybody else, and I generally agree with everything Muffin said, except for the bit where he was scumreading Ryel since before the game began. It seemed serious and needs an explanation At Some Point.

If I can get a player's name completely wrong in such away, it stands to reason I can get confused about who they are voting for.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #884 (isolation #33) » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:49 pm

Clearly this isn't a random vote

Yes, we know it wasn't a random vote. That's the point. We wanted to know what the reason was, to which Serene said in 94:

Explaining my current vote would kill the whole point of the vote, I'll do so when Shadoweh has had the chance to post.

The final reason stated was something like, to apply pressure to Shadoweh, who had yet to post. So why not say so?

The second line that you cut away was

If you are putting down votes with an explanation to justify that vote then I expect those explanations to make sense.

It was not a RVS vote and many players asked for an explanation. What's your beef with me, specifically?

Mouth-breather is a common used insult, and you used it as such.

Why do you feel it applied to you specifically?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #891 (isolation #34) » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:19 pm

I thought that you had unvoted Drezi because you believed his claim of unlimited investigator in a two-person neighbourhood.

I don't believe his claim because (my spellcards) and would be happy to vote there.

Incidentally, (my spellcards) is also why I didn't think Katsuki was trolling.

***

Cut.

It was not an RVS vote because Serene told us it was not an RVS vote.

You obviously are voting me because you feel insulted. I wanted to know if you had a reason to think I was scum. The answer is apparently no, so, let me see if I can smooth over those ruffled feathers of yours.

I'm sorry that I called players who didn't read my case mouth breathers. I realise it was a disablist comment and that is inappropriate in this forum. For me, typing and reading is as natural as walking and breathing, so I assumed (incorrectly) that other players would at least read what I had written out of a polite courtesy.

Now that we have that out of the way, can you walk me through why you actually think I am scum?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #895 (isolation #35) » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:32 pm

Katsuki, I'm probably going to have to claim in the next few hours so this phase isn't wasted. SB has had a sneek peak at my cards and/or ability so will instantly out me if I'm lying.

I will refer back to your claim at that time as the basis for why you should be lynched tomorrow, not today.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #896 (isolation #36) » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:34 pm

I'm a really bad lynch. Especially when the counter wagon is on scum.

Can you say why you are a bad lynch? What content/cases have you brought to the game?

What basis do you have for thinking I am scum?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #901 (isolation #37) » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:52 pm

I'd like to see a gladiate of Drezi and Rylai tbh.

What's your reason for town reading Rylai?

Do you have an opinion on Sakura Hana?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #914 (isolation #38) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:53 am

UNVOTE: Kilga

VOTE: Drezi

I don't believe the claim and I don't like the play. Drezi hasn't responded in thread since the heat has died off, either, despite promising content in 800. TBH I'm annoyed that Kilga hasn't popped in to respond to my rebuttal of his case an I wish SB was still here so he could confirm when I want to claim.

Going over the ISO, I generally don't like that Drezi seems to have only talked TO Muffin and ABOUT others. When I asked him a question about his role while under a threat of hammer, he didn't answer directly 800 with "It might be. Or might be not. Why?". When I first saw his post in response to my wall I felt happy that he was supporting it indirectly, while still poking at it. But I see he hasn't actually asked any direct questions. I'm going to say that is an attempt to appear active while actually remaining out of line of sight.

Other than his vote on Rylai and later Muffin, there is a list of reads in 667 but didn't really place any evaluation as to why he had those reads, with the sole exception of ActionDan. He mentions Sakura/Relentless/Ank/Pie as in betweeners and I can kind of see these four as buddies tbh since they seem to all be doing the random vote thing together. So I think he should have investigated why he felt these were flip/flopping further, and didn't.

I'm aware of the wagons and the time remaining. I will claim when I get up if I'm at 7+ votes or an intent to hammer, or if there is some other pressing reason to do so.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #915 (isolation #39) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:18 am

@Sakura Hana

In 783, you responded to my reason for scum reading you.

So basically you're scumreading me because:

- My vote switches a lot

This is correct and is part of who i am, whether you like it or not.

- My ability is harmful to town

Is an ability i was given based on my character choice, i can't really do too much about it, besides i disagree that's more harmful to town.

- I haven't made any cases.

I rarely make cases, I prefer poking at people when something pings me.

- I don't have any solid opinions

This is a lie, if you're saying this you aren't even reading my posts.

Out of those four points, you agree that two of them are correct. The third and fourth is a matter of opinion.

The reason I said your ability is harmful to town is because you are usually double voting, and you are frequently changing your votes. Unless you are double-voting scum all the time, you are essentially blocking a town (maybe two) from using a card. On day 1, I agree this seems petty. The longer the game goes on, though, the more likely you will suppress a town player when they really need to use a card, and I was thinking mid-late game strategy. That was why I said it was more harmful to town than not. You CAN do something about your ability. You can control your vote.

Solid opinions -
Looking over your ISO, at the start of the day phase you did have strong opinions (notably about SB and Serene). This later advanced to Drezi and Rylai. From around halfway in the day phase, you kind of backflipped on Drezi twice and then Serenes. It became increasingly difficult to keep track of what you were thinking, what you were doing, and more importantly, the motivation behind why you were doing it. I had just skimmed you at that time and I, basically, was unaware of what you really thought and your position.

We have never played together before. There was no way for me to know that this is the 'town' Sakura. I can't trust you alone to say this is the 'town' Sakura, since it could be scum Sakura talking. I see you have fifty+ games in your wiki now that you mention it, but it had never occurred to me to check your wiki because mine is blank. If other players that I trust (Muffin, Shadoweh) vouch for you then I can relax a little. Or you can link me a couple of games that you think best represent the differences between your scum/town self and I can make an appropriate judgement.

Can you at least see why I saw your play as scummy? Like, if you saw this:

Player is changing their votes frequently back and forth
Player has a passive ability that you assess is harmful to town
Player hasn't made any cases
Player has gone back on their opinions and less active as the day goes on

And, not knowing their meta or history, what would you think about it?

Do you think it was insincere of me to put you in my scum read instead of null or town? What advantage would I have for picking fights with half the player list?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #963 (isolation #40) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:43 pm

NotScience

HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG

I wanted to get a reason for Rylai's vote and I wanted to remove all emotional reasoning from it. Not surprisingly, he unvoted once emotion was taken away, and now apparently has no scum read or vote. That's an issue that should be taken up probably in day 2. I wanted to see if I could get Sakura to specifically outline why she is scum reading me for generally the same reason - I want to see if she had a reason to vote me other than 'because you said I am scum'.

I am more scum reading Sakura for her insistence that everything I said about her is true, and that it is scummy for me to make accurate observations about her game state, when her game state appears to be 'scummy'. Yes I'm aware she's played fifty games check her wiki graduated at the top of her class in the navy seals with over 300 confirmed kills etc blah blah blah I've played a heap of games too. Changing votes - not defending your votes - not explaining votes - not explaining reads - going back on your reads - these are all things I've questioned over the years and sometimes they yield results.

I accept that Anki's vote, while terrible because it didn't outline why he was picking me over Ooba, was intended to be a consolidation vote and it's very difficult to argue scum intent behind it.

Katsuki is a troll that hasn't contributed anything to the game except please-don't-lynch-Ooba and Sky-is-totes-scum which isn't really good enough since his magical scumread of Ooba will never occur while Ooba is not posting content. I don't think there's value in engaging with him.

I think there's probably some value in going through Pie's wall for this same reason and I do have time today.

My intent was not speciifcally to avoid hammer. My intent was to avoid claim. Which I may do so in the next hour or so since Muffin has called for it :/

Cut

OK.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #967 (isolation #41) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:05 pm

Muffin

I asked Drezi to clarify if his role was unlimited shot investigator and he was vague about it. It strikes me as odd. If you asked me under threat of hammer what my role does, I will bloody well tell you what my role does because not dead > dead. (Although in my situation with SB having a sneak peak at some part/all of my role, he can just leak it in to his QT).

Muffin

if it were my decision and my decision alone, i would say fuck it and just pick two people who aren't sky. but i have a feeling that would make some people not very happy

It's your spell card, you should do whatever you want with it and worry about the consequences only if you can't justify your actions. I do agree the time remaining may be short. With the number of double voters in play, you can probably secure a double lynch, and I agree that is optimal for town.

SB

I mainly unvoted because I was worried about confbiasing and what Sky said fit with my card results but after pie's explanation and realising that Sky basically began to ignore me besides wondering if I'd help him out after I unvoted is kind of worrying?

This is pretty bizarre because Pie's wall doesn't stand up under the most basic scrutiny. I didn't ignore you, you didn't post after we mutually unvoted, and I went on to pursue other things.
Guess I'm confused because you're now town-reading Serene, null on Ooba, town on me, but voted me. Ara?

Katsuki

and somehow that was a basis for a scumread, amongst other BS reasoning.

I didn't know you were a troll when you posted your role. I only found out after observing your play from then.

Muffin

and because i believe unnecessarily keeping claims hidden is useless

6/6 hmm

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #971 (isolation #42) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:29 pm

I got my first pick.

I am Konpaku Youmu, and I have three spellcards + an ability.

Paraphrasing:

I am half human/half youkai, meaning cards that target humans only or youkai only may fail.

I have:
One conditional vig shot: The condition is: Will fail if targeting humans.
One investigator shot: This is the reason that I don't buy Drezi's claim because he wanted to imply that his role is either way too OP, and I think he deliberately left some spell cards out.
One voteblock shot (public, day use): I can stop a player from voting. I elected not to use it this day phase because I felt it would be more useful mid-late game, once I had in mind players that had dangerous vote abilities and disagreed with their votes. EG Sakura. But then Sakura voted me so I couldn't use it even if I wanted to. I kind of feel that my card is supposed to stop one of Sakura/Kilga/Shadoweh, so naturally I'm suspicious of them. Except for Shadoweh, who I believe is town.

My ability is: Conditionally immune to vig/lynch. The condition is the only thing I want to keep private, although SB knows it and I bet Kagami does too. I've seen Lily's imply they are going to be here forever, so I believed they have some conditional lynch immunity too. I said that it is beneficial to town because I had planned to use the conditional immunity in the right kind of LYLO to self vote and provoke a scum hammer, when it was really not hammer. SB 100% knows the condition and can confirm I am telling the truth.

Seeing as I thought I had been vigged, you can safely presume that I can be lynched and vigged today >.>;;

This is also why I believed that Katsuki actually true-claimed when he said he was bulletproof-unlynchable, because at face value I thought "Aha, he must be the other half of my conditional unlynchable unviggable." Since he claimed SK in a game that has no SK, I assumed he was scum, because on Shrine Maiden, scum often claim ITP and live; this looks like the normal scum get-out-of-jail-card. And I figured if we have two halves, and I am town, the other may be scum, so that's why I psuedo-sorted him into scum in my first list of reads. This was apparently sufficient for Katsuki to go moon-Kiene on me so I don't mind if we test Katsuki's unlynchable claim sometime soon. I am lynchable today, so I bet Katsuki isn't. And that's why I'm not interested in pushing a lynch on him today.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #978 (isolation #43) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:28 pm

I'm wary of breaking the no-quoting-role-pm rule by stating the exact spell card name for the cards.

Card list

The vig shot is spell 079.

Card list

The cop shot is spell card 3 (NOT skill card 3).

You will see the name of the vote block card when I use it.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #979 (isolation #44) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:30 pm

The cop shot is spell card 3 (NOT skill card 3).

and also not story mode spell card guh.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #982 (isolation #45) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:44 pm

We're not arguing.

I'm asking you to link some of your town/scum games from your wiki that you believe best represent the differences between your town/scum games, and you're not doing it.

I'm asking you to explain why you see me as scum outside of the fact that I said you were scum, and you're not doing it.

Why are you town again?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #985 (isolation #46) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:49 pm

Sakura, you claimed that 'I always plays like this' and that your play is not scummy. So it should be trivial for you to link a few town/scum games to support your statement.

You were the one who challenged me to look at your wiki. Well, I did it and saw a whole bunch of games. So now I'm asking you to do the same thing you asked me to do, and pull out a few games to justify why your 'always play like this' is a town one.

Is it not reasonable?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #988 (isolation #47) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:51 pm

Fantastic. Thanks, I'll go read up on them.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #995 (isolation #48) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:35 pm

Sakura
Game 1 (Hope +1) Town Sakura

Spoiler:

Notes
Very aggressive, in your face. Very active and engaging presence throughout the whole game until replacement.
Emotion based play, basically scumread TN for him 'scumpainting' her, turns out TN was scum. Provides basis for Sakura scumreading me for scumsorting her here. At one point gives up and sheeps another players vote until the wagon restarts, then once she has some support starts laying down soul destroying interrogations and heavy direct force application. After continued resistance drops out of the game.

Game 2 (PvZ (Not Protoss vs Zerg sadly) cancelled) Sakura town

Spoiler:

Notes
Alternates between passive sniping and direct aggression. Vote changing happens a lot more in this game than our current game and the previous one. Generally very active presence, even when just making one-liners, usually questioning a player. Generally very effective at pulling apart people when their story has a loose thread. Unafraid to go straight for the face. Hates players that don't participate.

Common themes: Highly aggressive, direct and active play style. Almost always making posts that engage other players or advance (or clarify) game state in some way. Very clear on reads. Gets frustrated easily and replaces out when people don't agree with her.

Now checking scum games to contrast.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #996 (isolation #49) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:36 pm

Before I forget, does your race specifically contain the word "youkai"?

It does not.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #997 (isolation #50) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:41 pm

Sakura
Game 3 (Makai) Scum

Spoiler:

Notes
Many non content posts. Many going to sleep/afk posts (going to the shops/got to mod maps/got to nap). Not engaged with the game. Late initial vote, few vote changes overall. Many posts complain about game state, feeling lost. Rarely provides reads and rarely questions other players. Doesn't defend or update reads. Ambivalence on Anki never updated. Buddies Anki/Gaiden. Tends to say "Player x is town" without saying "Player x is town because xyz."
Many, many, many less posts than her town games.

***

I cannot get the ISO of the Madoka game, perhaps because I am not a registered member.
Therefore I will elect to pluck the most recent on-site scum game Sakura played, because we are interested in contrasting that with her current game, and that is Newbie 1372 Max Steel where Sakura was lynched day 1.
Sakura
Game 4 (Max Steel) scum

Spoiler:

Notes
General failure to engage players except those challenging her. Empty content/fluff posts about being busy/afk, empty votes and revotes. On-again-and-off again. Confusal of game state, feeling of being lost. Over sensitive to players voting her. Fails to provide or explain reads unless asked. Hates lurkers. Employes appeal to emotion, WIFOM and derailing (argue semantics) as defensive tactics. Many, many less posts than her town games.

Common themes:
Empty content posts complaining about being lost/confused of game state. Passive and reactive rather than engaging. Frequent references to going afk (sleep is the main one). Rarely provides reads, fails to quantify reads. Does not pick up loose threads. Does not seriously interrogate players. Many, many less posts than her town games.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1000 (isolation #51) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:23 pm

I will say that I am disappointed that Sakura elected to provide me four games where I could get the minimal information about her ISO.
Two town games where she replaced out.
Two scum games where she subbed in. One scum game that was offsite.

***

Differences between scum game and town game:
Sakura Town: Highly aggressive, direct and active play style. Almost always making posts that engage other players or advance (or clarify) game state in some way. Very clear on reads. Gets frustrated easily and replaces out when people don't agree with her.
Sakura Scum: Empty content posts complaining about being lost/confused of game state. Passive and reactive rather than engaging. Frequent references to going afk (sleep is the main one). Rarely provides reads, fails to quantify reads. Does not pick up loose threads. Does not seriously interrogate players. Many, many less posts than her town games.

Differences:
Aggression versus passiveness.
Engagement versus reaction.
Clarity of reads versus incomplete reads.
Focus on game versus confused about game.
Few fluff posts versus many fluff posts.
Many, many posts versus comparatively few posts.

In common:
Frustrated easily.
Changes votes easily.
Doesn't explain votes.

Now comparing with Sakura's current game.

Spoiler:

Notes
Many, many fluff posts. Fails to provide substantiated reads. Fails to follow up on initial scum picks (SB/Pie/Notty). Arbitrary town read (Gaiden) which mirrors her arbitrary town read from Makai mafia. Many going afk non content posts. Generally reactive playstyle, not picking up threads, and not engaging players. Refuses to commit to a double lynch despite being only one of two players who can do it. Several posts staying being lost/confused.
General obsession with not being scumread/no votes. Admits points against her are valid, admits she hasn't engaged players.

Aggression versus passiveness? -> Passive.
Engagement versus reaction -> reaction.
Clarity of reads versus incomplete reads? -> Incomplete.
Focus on game versus confused about game -> Confused.
Few fluff posts versus many fluff posts -> many fluff posts.
Many, many posts versus comparatively few posts -> undeterminable.

Conclusion:

There is a lot more in common with Sakura's scum play this game than her town play

. So I stand by my scum sort of Sakura until I die or she improves.

I've spent four hours doing this, I'm gonna take a break and figure out if I want to change my vote or just card her.

cut

Kilga, did you mean to change your vote?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1003 (isolation #52) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:47 pm

OK.

UNVOTE: Drezi
VOTE: Sakura Hana

I'm

convinced

she is scum and I am prepared to die for it.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1024 (isolation #53) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:35 pm

It's almost like I claimed and nobody cared.

UNVOTE: Sakura Hana

I...don't want to just vote Ooba, because when I do that, I'm effectively giving up on scum hunting for today and just consolidating. And I don't want to just consolidate when it seems like there's so much left to do.

I'll give Drezi one more push and if there's nothing left I'll consolidate.

Sakura I will look at that Mononoke thing over the night phase, and I didn't realise the NEWER games were at the bottom. I'm burned out, I just can't do another ISO today. I can't look at teh computer monitor any longer either.
VOTE: Drezi

I'll be around again well before phase end.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1027 (isolation #54) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:54 pm

I actually checked the time stamps.
The games that Sakura linked were from Aug 2014, Aug 2014, November 2014, and October 2014. When I couldn't find the ISO button for Madoka mafia, and I went to get the newbie Max Steel game, I found it was May 2013. I thought 'huh' and checked what I believed to be her most recent town game (Vantasmagoria) and found it was April 2013. I noticed Sakura said she hadn't updated her recent games list and I was like "wow, a whole year behind?" Then I was like hrrm, do I dig through the completed games list to find a more recent game and then I thought screw it, if I'm wrong she'll defend herself and we can learn something.

if he really thought my wall didn't hold up "under the most basic scrutiny", I don't get why he never bothered addressing why.

tbh I planned to vig you so I was like oh well deal with this later if I'm wrong.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:05 pm

In case you are unaware, the votes are Ooba 6, Sky 6, Drezi 5.

It is a cop shot. I am unaware of any other investigate type.

I'm completely burned out from mafia all day and incapable of doing much more. I do question Ooba's decision to vote for Drezi because

Here's hoping SkyPal is town.

when I thought he should have said "Here's hoping Drezi is scum."

Assuming I'm around I'll read the games Sakura/Gaiden linked.

Taking advice on who to cop/shoot tonight. Seeing as all visitors are announced, I'm not too worried about being interfered with. If left to my own devices, I'd probably want to cop Pieguy, or shoot one of our non voters (Mala/Gaiden most criminal). Ooba's comment that Sakura will probably die tonight means I don't want to shoot her but I don't mind to cop her either.
I could also cop Muffin or Shadoweh since I trust them and it'd be great to confirm that trust.
I could also cop whichever of Drezi or Ooba we don't lynch today.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:06 pm

EBWODB "Assuming I'm around I'll read the games Sakura/Gaiden linked

this night phase

. "

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:10 pm

EBWOTP or if we manage to flip one of Ooba/Drezi scum, I will look at the votes on the competitive wagons and make my best guess for which ones are the scum votes.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:14 pm

iI'm really tired but Dan's consolidation vote because I didn't explicitly say cop has me irrationally angry. Well I guess he couldn't vote Drezi because we both claimed investigator but lol you know, Drezi's claim vs my claim, which would you rather keep in the game? zug zug

Also your cop shot would be wasted on me.

uh

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:15 pm

Are you claiming human?

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:15 pm

Because the vig is the one that fails on humans. Are you SURE I can't cop you?

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:24 pm

I honestly thought investigator meant cop. I knew there were other kinds of cop (insane cop, role cop, etc etc). I mean I've played plenty of games before, I just assumed everybody thought investigator meant common or garden variety cop.

cut

Then I don't understand why you voted me because I thought that's what you siad. and I would love to hear about it when you come back sometime.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:26 pm

u__u

OK miller. Great.

I don't know the meta on this forum. On Shrine Maiden I *think* we claim that in like your very first post. What's the basis on hinting instead of saying it outright?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1053 (isolation #63) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:19 am

Ohhkay.

Sakura Hana, what do say about a cop on you?

I'm about to go to bed so here are my last reads in case I get surprise lynched.

Sakura is my main scum read, at least pending my read of the new games. That I found correlation between one scum game and her current game and very little between her two linked town games and this game is a big red flag. I said she was playing scummy, she said it's her playstyle, I find that her town playstyle is sufficiently different and active/engaged/aggressive that this is not it. W/e. There's not enough time to lynch her so never mind.

Next is Drezi. I summed this up better when I voted, but basically his apathetic playstyle, mainly talking ABOUT other players rather than TO them. He reacted to my wall on Serene and zMuffin push, and cased Rylai, cue the low-hanging-fruit discussion. I don't believe his claim because it appears significantly incomplete and looks like he was hedging his bets. Contrast with my claim where I told you everything except one minor detail which is currently known only by SB. At least until night phase when he will presumably tell all his pals in the neighbourhood/scum topic.
I think Drezi has a really good chance of flipping scum so that's why I'm pushing this lynch over Ooba, who while I am suspicious of, and generally not happy with what appears to be minimalist content and an apparent immunity to investigations, is at least maintaining a presence. I hate lurksacks.

Third is Katsuki. Katsuki claimed bulletproof unlynchable. He can be lynched in the next day phase I believe or I can test his bulletproof claim for you all ^__^ Katsuki's sole content today was to waste everybody's time and demand a lynch of Sky because no reason. No impact on the game. Katsuki did promise Muffin a compromise lynch of Drezi over Ooba so let's see if that comes to be and what motivation he has for doing it.

Fourth is Ooba/Serene Forest. The slot has improved since Ooba took over it but there's still some odd comments/feelings about it, like Ooba is holding back from posting. Perhaps he's worried about giving out this so-called scum-tell Katsuki was talking about. I didn't vote Ooba even though not me over me because as soon as I did that I basically gave up scum hunting and we might as well just cross vote. If it's a town/town wagon, the next day phase will be ugly. Besides, I really strongly think Drezi is scum, and I only kind of think Ooba is scum.
Ooba didn't claim after I claimed which I thought was really strange, especially since he's talking about how he can't be investigated.

Fifth is Pie. Pie is all over the shop and I feel like they're bringing up pretty random things on the pretense that it is a big deal. Pie wrote a big case on me that doesn't bear up to any scrutiny so my first thought was just vig him, he'll flip scum, but then I had to claim so I'll deal with it properly in the next day phase. Pie pretty much vanished for a big chunk of the phase after zMuffin and I said his case was bad and reappeared just now to say he is busy but hey lets keep the vote on Sky. I can't blame Pie for wanting to keep his vote on me as it hasn't been officially rebutted yet and I'm probably too rekt to do it right now. I guess I'll look at it before I go to bed.

Sixth is Ankamius. He vote parked two days out and never reappeared in the thread despite his post history suggesting he has been active in other parts of the forum. So I flag this one as a scum vote park. I'll have to read up on him before deciding to vig/investigate him though.

Ok so those are my main picks. Now the rest of the class that I haven't spoken about yet...

SB/Dan, I want explanations for their, basically, terrible votes on me at the end of this phase. I butt heads with SB and I can't remember how I felt, I'll have to go back and read my wall, but I unvoted because I beleived his feelings were genuine. Dan voted me because consolidate "Purely for consolidation. When compared to ooba/drezi." but not commenting on his thoughts about Ooba or Drezi or apparently being aware that he tied the wagons with that vote. Or maybe this was his intent. Either way, I want to hear more about it. I am on record saying that if I had a vig I would always always always always shoot Dan, and I have previously done so. Failing to shoot Dan is a scumtell for me but this game he's not completely shit so I'm troubled.

Gaiden who has done nothing in the last half of the phase, never voted, yet shows up to be 'helpful' and link another game that he thinks I should read about Sakura. Gaiden didn't say why he suggested that scum game in particular, so if he is sitting on some secret scum/town tell of Sakura and isn't sharing it, that's kind of a jerk move. I was town clearing or null reading him earlier because Muffin was and I trusted Muffin, and I still do, but Gaiden is lurking and I hate lurkers.

Rylai has dropped from my scum reads at the moment because even though his card appeared to have been used to stop him from being gladiated, it has the effect of revealing all visitors at night. Seems super pro town in addition that he has stepped up his content and been active since being prodded.

Lily's still basically don't reaaaaaally factor in for me yet but they are voting the same wagon so that continues to suggest they share a town alignment. I'm okay with the fairies for now. They haven't really posted enough content to go through iirc. I am leaning town/town on Lily Black/Lily White.

Mala is now officially getting the stink eye from me. She appeared early to provide minor approval of my wall and then basically vanished, so we're left being unaware of what she thinks, who her scum picks are, or who she thinks is town. Well she apparently thinks I'm town, so she is at least 1/18 go go go. It would be really great if Mala did something.

Kilga and Kagami I'm null on. Kilga didn't even acknowledge my claim (actually only Dan/Rylai have so far) and seeing as my entire play this phase is completely explained by looking at my card and ability, I'm left questioning what he is looking for. Actually there's not a whole lot of content from Kilga. Kagami I have no opinion on and I don't remember the player doing specifically anything except commenting on whether my response to being maybe vigged was plausible or not.

Places I'd like to look tomorrow are my null reads (Kilga/Kagami) and players who I think should post more content (Mala, Gaiden) so that I can get a good feel of the whole player list. It's been a very busy day zzz. I'm around for another hour or two in case any surprises turn up.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1062 (isolation #64) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:38 am

OK, let's do this.

TL;DR

Pie makes up things and takes things out of context, his case destroyed by trivial analysis.

***

Pie 743

OK. the main reason I think Sky_Paladin is scum is bc I think the stances he's taking this game, especially his push on SB, generally look forced. I'm going to sound like a huge hypocrite saying this, but it looks more like he's just coming up with excuses to paint SB as scummy as opposed to asking genuine questions.

OK. Why do you say that you are going to sound like a huge hypocrite for saying that I look like I'm just coming up with excuses instead of asking genuine questions?

the first thing (which I touched on already) is that in his first catchup post, he calls Serenes and all the ppl defending him scum, and then proceeds to come up with reasoning for it. which as I said isn't scummy by itself. however, a lot of the reasons he has are completely specious, or otherwise outright wrong. I'm not going to point every single one out, but there were a few that struck me as extremely wrong:

OK. Let's go through these reasons.

In post 431, Sky_Paladin wrote:SB acknowledges that he screwed up in 86 when he states:
"Sky looked like he's making an attempt to look useful but wasn't really sticking his neck out and doing much. The post that cut me while I was writing this is kind of a counterexample though so meh."

Pie said:

this is strictly false. he is claiming that SB (86) is acknowledging that he "screwed up", aka that his original reasoning for voting S
P
was false.

that is not what SB was doing. SB was not retracting the original reasoning for his read. the post SB is referring to is 82, which came after his initial scum read on Sky_Paladin.

not only did he never assert that the original scum read he had was wrong, he never actually screwed up here. his read progression went from thinking Sky_Paladin was sitting on the sidelines attempting to look useful, to seeing 82 and questioning it.

there is nothing wrong here. this indicates that Sky_Paladin is pushing something that, if he was adequately reading the thread, he should really know is false, which in turn indicates he's making it up. plus, the way Sky_Paladin claims he "screwed up" comes off as nothing more than a weak attempt at discrediting.

Corrected SB to SP in first sentence for clarity.
Examining both of SB's posts in their original context makes it clear that you are clutching at straws. SB made his vote because according to him I was 'on the sidelines'. He then later acknowledges after another post of mine that this was no longer the case. I said that SB acknowledged this and in the context of the ENTIRE post that SB had made, which you have excluded, his emphasis was on responding to Reckless which included explaining his Sky vote and why he was defending Serene.

SB's 80
SB's 86

Note there's only six posts difference between those two posts. The logical progression for somebody who just had the meat of their vote cut away is to improve their vote in some way, which SB then later attempts to do when he re-votes you. Things happened exactly as I said they happened in 431, when I voted SB because his vote for you didn't seem plausible.

SB's 408

I also think Pie saying that he'd rather form reads from play than rolespec (somewhere around 170 iirc) and then not really doing much is sort of weird? It sort of looks like posturing. I also feel like when he got his Rylai suspicion the defense of GIF was really over the top considering that others had been saying that GIF hadn't done much seemed to get a free pass?

Next point.

Me:

In post 431, Sky_Paladin wrote:Pie and Muffin keep on talking. Pie: 277

the only scum read I have is Sky_Paladin but at this point the only reasoning behind it is I still don't see how he gets "reckless" from Serenes' initial reasoning.

Pie has also clarified that she has some issues with Serene but doesn't see Serene's actions as scummy at this point. She's confused her story here; originally she was saying my vote was bad because I said SB was reckless.

You said:

this is also strictly false. I explicitly said when I initially voted him (
235
) I thought his point that Serenes was "reckless" was a straw man, namely, he said Serenes was reckless when he wasn't actually being reckless.

the other problem I had with the 1st wall was that the progression on his read on me doesn't make much sense given what he was trying to accomplish with the wall. it initially started off as an attempt to look at all the ppl who were defending or otherwise related to SB. however, if you read through the wall, most of the interactions between me/the other players that he points out point towards at most towards me being town, which given he did this with me and I think 3 of the other players, should make me more likely to be town: ex. the part where he claims SB incorrectly claimed I was singling GIF out, or SB voting me because I voted Rylai. he also claims at several points that suspicion of me is misguided, or explicitly agrees with stuff I'm doing (e.g. questioning Dan on his Rylai town read).

however, at the end he declares a scum read on me anyway for contradicting myself. now, I don't think this is that strong a point because he outlined the reasoning for it, but I think it's more likely to come from a scum POV of determining what reads you want to push and coming up with the reasoning later. I think a town player would be more likely to just analyze the interactions and openly declare "xxx probably doesn't make sense as scum with the others" instead of analyzing a bunch of interactions and sometime later going "o wait, this guy is scum anyway even though the interactions point to him being town".

this is even more so the case given that at the end of the wall, he called all 5 of his initial pool scum anyway. the result of this is that we get a post that gets basically nowhere, and actively goes _against_ what it was trying to accomplish at the start. it's scum posting a bunch of words, but not actually drawing any conclusions from it.

(corrected post number 245->235)

You completely cut out the section of my post where I lead up to this point. Let me repost it for you.

There was, however, this post at 199 from Pie, wherein Pie supports another player (Relentless) push on SB during his conversation with zMuffin. In fact, Pie mentions SB a lot from 200+. Except then there is an inexplicable shift in attitude from Pie, who suddenly sheeps Kilga's vote on Sky, which is in direct opposition to everything Pie had been saying about SB, and in disagreement with her own later point in 267 when she agrees with Relentless that she didn't like Serene abandoning their vote. On the surface, I'm not sure what to make of it, except to note that Pie ends up voting for Rylai, which is the second half of why SB voted for Pie.

You mentioned in 199 when talking to Muffin:

I don't actually mind his SB push. for a few reasons. first off, his whole angle is that SB as town usually jokes about bussing, but would be less likely to do so in an offsite game. this actually doesn't seem that unreasonable, and I can easily enough see town attributing it to a start-of-game mindset slip; compared to, ex. my push on Hanasawa at the start of that game, I don't get anywhere near as much as a scum-coming-up-with-bullshit vibe from it, and it kind of felt like he believed it.

second, now that I look at it in context, I'm realizing he essentially went and accused SB for something he's done before as town. which is kind of giving me second thoughts about it since I agree it's not good, but I still don't think it's explicitly scummy; I don't see what scum-him has to gain by coming up with something that he knows is blatantly wrong and that SB could go and _prove_ is blatantly wrong. it makes more sense that he's town and thought SB would play differently on another site for whatever reason, even if it's not a particularly good line of thought.

So here you are supporting Serene's push against SB, because of the bus angle, but later you then flip your switch in 277 to say that you don't understand why I am pushing SB, and you cite that I said Serene was being reckless.

Let's go back to my post where I said reckless:
112

Your initial vote on SB was because he was being reckless.
And now you think he is town because scum!SB would not be so reckless.

Basically your entire point here is fabricated around the idea that I at some point called Serene reckless, when I didn't, and you and I both supported Serene (at some point) pushing this angle at SB. That's why I said that you completely flipped your opinion when you sheeped Kilga and voted me, because you were

making the same basic argument as me

but then voted me. And that's why I said your post doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny, because it's based on things that are just plain fucking wrong and can be seen simply by checking the links that you provided.

Next point.

In post 632, Sky_Paladin wrote:You're number one scum read became a town read. Really. Why is that?

"genuine waffling"

Since when was waffling aka non-content-posting a basis for town clearing? Fabricated justification.

You wrote:

this is not indicative of what SB actually did. SB had been pretty clearly hinting (425) since I responded to his initial vote on me that my response was fine and that he didn't suspect me anymore, and that he was just leaving the vote on as a placeholder. this occurred before Sky_Paladin even caught up.

(incidentally, he completely left 425 out of both of his catchup posts, which indicates he might have missed it, but this is the kind of thing I would expect someone to pick up on if they were actually attempting to cross-reference the reasons behind their push, which again indicates he was just coming up with reasons to push someone without caring if they were true)

this wasn't SB taking his "number-one" scum read and reversing it on the basis of "genuine waffling", it was SB taking a null read and finding something town about it later. it reads more like scum coming up with a throwaway reason to call someone scum instead of town legitimately thinking this.

SB said this:

I also feel like when he got his Rylai suspicion the defense of GIF was really over the top considering that others had been saying that GIF hadn't done much seemed to get a free pass?

You said this:

my aim was to attack Rylai's logic moreso than defending GIF per se; I don't have a read on GIF. anyway, afaict most of the people who had suspected GIF were already distinguishing between having no content and being here but purposefully not doing shit, which I didn't have a problem with. Rylai had just said "no content", which is different than having content that is actually entirely empty (and jumped out at me in particular because it looked like a bullshit throwaway reason someone would come up with to push a fake read). I dropped it once he clarified what he meant.

SB said this:

Over the top was bad wording in hindsight, it was more about how I felt it was weird how he jumped at Rylai for saying that GIF was weird when there were other people like Relentless who did it for similar reasons but I don't remember pie finding them questionable for it. I'd like to know if Rylai finds anyone suspicious for reasons that aren't variations of "lacking content" though.

That said, his response to my vote is fine and I'll probably end up looking elsewhere when I come back.

I had said this:

IMO Pie had said a lot of things, but one thing she had not done was an 'over the top defense of GiF'. She had mounted a basic case on Rylai, and she had mentioned approval of pressure on SB. She had mentioned her opinions on several players, including me. So I don't think it's posturing. I don't agree with many of the things she says because she seems to contradict herself at times, and these are points SB should have picked up and made in his vote if he was serious about it. Serious as Bananas.

SB will later address this 'seriousness' when interrogated by zMuffin, "Over the top was bad wording in hindsight, it was more about how I felt it was weird how he jumped at Rylai for saying that GIF was weird when there were other people like Relentless who did it for similar reasons but I don't remember pie finding them questionable for it."

I did not miss 425. I said 'SB will later address this 'seriousness' when interrogated by zMuffin'. I appreciate that at a later point, SB did change his read on you. However

that does not change that at an earlier point he did say

:

I also feel like when he got his Rylai suspicion the defense of GIF was really over the top considering that others had been saying that GIF hadn't done much seemed to get a free pass?

And that is the point that I raised.

In defense of this point, when I argued it with SB, he said that your 'genuine waffling' made him town clear you. I called bullshit on it. You, in fact, cut away to an entirely different post and quoted just the last paragraph of a different wall - you were no longer arguing with my case on SB, you were arguing with the mid-point argument with SB.

You keep cutting away the things that I wrote to change the context. Why do you feel that you need to do this?

I wrote:

In post 632, Sky_Paladin wrote:I don't think ALL of you are scum. I just think SOME of you are scum.

In post 632, Sky_Paladin wrote:You mean like when Kilga voted five players?

You wrote:

this is a pretty big contradiction. he's claiming that a town player can think that not all of their scum reads are scum, but completely ignores the fact that Kilga is doing the exact same thing and instead calls him scum for what is equivalent to having a lot of scum reads. he doesn't care that what Kilga is doing here can come from town because he's just scum BS'ing. I also have no idea what he was aiming to accomplish with this question in the first place - it's a pretty throwaway question that isn't relevant to anything - so it reads as nothing more than a deflection.

I wasn't calling scum. I was highlighting that SB's point - that I'm not allowed to say "I think some of these people are scum" - was meaningless. SB and I were in the middle of a debate and we understood what the other was saying. You just cherry picked things and took stuff out of context. That is 'scum hunting' huh?

I wrote:

In post 632, Sky_Paladin wrote:Basically SB is voting me because I voted him. It's OMGUS.

You wrote:

this reads like nothing more than scum claiming "lol OMGUS" in order to discredit SB's push on him. in addition to the fact that he doesn't justify how SB's push is OMGUS or why OMGUS is scum motivated, "OMGUS" isn't even indicative of what SB's reasoning actually was. SB pretty clearly (498) called him scum for being extremely reactionary and stretching to justify the associatives he was pushing, as well as the fact that this fit more with his scum meta than his town meta.

nothing here attempts to analyze motivation, or figure out what scum actually has to gain by doing most of the things he's calling ppl out for. it's all throwaway reasons that in most cases aren't even true.

An OMGUS (Oh My God You Suck) is when a player votes another player purely because they are being voted by that player. At this stage, you are no longer quoting from my original case and from the later part of our argument where we both eventually calmed down and unvoted each other.

Also, I voted SB first. He voted me afterwards. That means the one who was reacting was actually SB. This could be realised by simply looking at the posts. Your argument is baseless.

"well as the fact that this fit more with his scum meta than his town meta."
We've never played together before and you don't know my meta at all, so why do you make this kind of comment?

You wrote:

my last problem is his reads list. he supposedly had Sakura, Ank, Drezi, and Dan as scum. however, he did, quite literally, nothing to push or even explain any of those reads. like, fucking really? he spent all that time walking everyone through why there was supposedly scum in SB and his defenders, but didn't do anything at all to lay out his other scum reads or question anyone outside of that group. I would also expect a town player to be more likely to actually post the reasoning for their reads when they think they're about to die. there's a certain mentality town players have when they think they're dead; they scramble to do every single last possible thing in order to get whatever thoughts they have out. this wasn't like that at all. it was half-hearted. it looked more like scum going through the motions and thinking they would give a reads list as town, so they put up a reads list.

As stated multiple times, and as confirmed by the time stamps, I had a little over ten minutes to read the thread and post everything I could. In hindsight, I should have laid out a priority order, but there were too many players and not enough time to do this.

In any case, I have explained my reads since then in quite some detail, so this point - while arguably true from a matter of opinion - certainly no longer stands.

You wrote

and the other problem is that he had been soft-pushing the Drezi wagon the entire time (start of 620) while actually doing all this. what the actual fuck? I don't even know what to say to that. I could think of possible town explanations, but come the fuck on. it's him adding fire to the main wagon of the day (which incidentally makes me pretty sure Drezi is town if Sky_Paladin is scum here), while not actually pushing him and instead writing a bunch of words that don't do anything and hoping no one calls him on it. I admit it's possible the Drezi read would come from town, but the overall narrative here makes so much more sense with him as scum pushing Drezi as a mislynch to the point where it's almost ridiculous.

I explained in my claim why I was OK with a Drezi lynch (didn't believe his claim!) and given that Drezi is almost certainly scum, and my placement on that wagon, I'm okay with somebody saying I was soft-pushing the Drezi wagon. Actually I'd rather people say that I had a large role in getting Drezi lynched.

Anyway that's why I said your case was awful and anybody who looked at it in any detail could instantly see you were just making stuff up, and that I was going to vig you for it. But now I've explained why it's awful, you get the chance to rectify your mistake.

Looking forward to it.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1069 (isolation #65) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:47 am

Hi folks!

Drezi

If I'm not lynched today I'll replace out, since I'm way too bitter and demotivated by this game to spring into action and show I'm town at this point.

This is called claiming scum. You know what to do!

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1070 (isolation #66) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:49 am

Katsuki

FOR SOMEONE WHO POSTS SO MUCH YOU ARE REALLY FUCKING DUMB

I HOPE YOU TRY AND WASTE YOUR SHOT ON ME THO

Did you not see the Cirno avatar? I consider it fair warning.

GET FUCKING REKT SKYPALLY IM VISITING YOUR HOUSE TONIGHT AND ITS GONNA BE A BLOODY MESS

Don't worry. I was a baker for five years, I know how to handle a cupcake.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1071 (isolation #67) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:50 am

Aaaand I'm off to bed. Please leave your vig/cop requests in here before the hammer.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1087 (isolation #68) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:36 am

zzzzz

Drezi stop the AtE, real town would have full claimed by now.

Pieguy/Ank/Hana are all around and can vote. Conspicious absence from scum flip of Drezi will be noted and punished.

Incidentally I can cancel a vote on me at any time with my card, so. Drezi self vote?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1099 (isolation #69) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:50 am

That is not a full claim.

You have three spell cards and an ability.

FULL CLAIM.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1104 (isolation #70) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:59 am

Oh. I just assumed we were all the same.

Sigh /rub eyes

Your ability is to investigate a player and if they are human you get your spell card back.
And your only spell card is to be able to fake vote.

Is that correct?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1118 (isolation #71) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:09 am

I have no way of knowing that your vote block and double vote is not a single ability. For example, I had conditional davyig immune and conditional lynch immune as a single ability.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1121 (isolation #72) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:12 am

While you're here, Gaiden, could you explain why you linked that specific scum game of Sakura's?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1128 (isolation #73) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:29 am

Hey Pie, while I appreciate you are having a hard time voting for your scum buddy, could you please refrain from calling my posts shit if you aren't going to bother to indicate what you don't like about them?

I mean I even rebutted yourawful case and said I wouldn't vig you tonight! I'm such a swell guy.

Also I full claimed/made list of quality reads/ISO'd the hell out of Sakura/made cases/pushed stuff/active presence etc etc etc.

I mean there must be some reason you actually think I'm scum. After all, you're voting me, right?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1150 (isolation #74) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:55 am

I'm sorry, it's 2 am and I have work tomorrow. I can't stay up much longer.

I'd much rather lynch Drezi but with Pie/Hana/Dan/Gaiden refusing to vote it may not be possible without town having to blow a spellcard. And that would basically be a stupid waste.

I could consolidate on to Ooba if there's no other choice. Drezi at least claimed. I hate his claim but Ooba never claimed :/

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1159 (isolation #75) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:01 am

Hana: If you think the cop shot will work on you, I'm happy to get a town clear for you since it will save me having to trawl through countless games to get a satisfactory result.
I know Shadoweh wants me to shoot a lurker, I can't remember what muffin wants me to do.

The important thing is there is a cop shot and a vig shot, and

visits are tracked tonight

. So nobody can interfere with the action and I couldn't fake an action even if I was scum lying about it.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1160 (isolation #76) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:02 am

The important thing is there is a cop shot and a vig shot,

meaning I don't have to shoot if enough people think a cop on player x is warranted instead.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1171 (isolation #77) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:13 am

Well, being able to fake vote is kind of how I planned to win the game for LYLO using my conditional lynch immune. I could see how a town player might use it to play a fake vote in LYLO to buy a scum quickhammer only to go LOL SURPRISE. Trouble is that requires getting to LYLO with basically nothing else.

I completely forgot that no-visit-spellcard thing.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1196 (isolation #78) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:43 am

We could still have switched to Ooba (or Sky I guess). Well I disagree he is flipping town so I'm satisfied with my vote. I agree hammering a town read is not good.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1202 (isolation #79) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:47 am

If he flips scum and you hammered your town read I can't see that in a bad light.
If he flips town well tomorrow the next day phase will be busy.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1206 (isolation #80) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:50 am

Only one thing left to do.

Who to shoot or cop. Thoughts?

Shadoweh's vote for Gaiden/Mala is noted.

Pieguy was my go to choice but the correct vote = stay of execution.

Happy to read up on Sakura's games in a more positive light so consider a cop or vig would be wasted.

Unhappy with Dan saying no lynch over lynch. Anki 'hi' post also disappointing.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1213 (isolation #81) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:54 am

Dan: We can post in twilight. Go for it son

Yeah I am happy to not be lynched and I hope I can at least get some town cred for it so I don't have to go through this crap again for some time.

I guess in theory I could shoot Ooba so we could get the best of both worlds.

Your recommendation taken under good consideration, Sakura.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1217 (isolation #82) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:56 am

If you die (you prob will)

yeah I know, I was hoping that Rylai's spell card was going to report visits and I'd be okay.

Oh well if I shoot Ooba and died tonight, then all d1 wagons would flip. That'd be a pretty hilarious outcome.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1219 (isolation #83) » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:57 am

Muffin: Rightyo.

OK shutting up now. Good job everybody, off to bed zzz.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:55 am

Just passing by for now more to come later.

I read Sakura's scum games, she was scum, so I about to send in a shot on her and then noticed NS had threatened to vig her. I figured that was worth leaving on the table.

I copped somebody. I'll share the results a little later on.

I currently have a time bomb on me so I'll assume that's a parting gift from Sakura.

Happy to vote for Malakittens. I was THIS CLOSE to shooting either Mala or Gaiden, but I decided that using a vig slot on somebody we should double lynch out of the game would have been a waste, and getting a scum flip on Sakura would be beneficial in promoting content from Gaiden, so we can make a proper decision about him.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:31 pm

I'm interested in seeing where Science goes with this, but in the interests of not wasting time,

A quick treatise of science threats:
111 vig Mala
120 intent to use card
127 intent to vig Pie
207 intent to vig Sakura
250 pieguy/relentless
254 Sakura/Gaiden
255 specifically mentions 'target female'
257 specifically 'implies' Mala or Sakura
710 who to vig, Sakura or 'him'?
841 clear intent to vig one of Sakura/Pie/Mala

My notes from last night:

Where are the scums?
Case 3 town wagons (Ooba town)
All over the place or even not voting.
Case 2 town wagons (Ooba scum)
Mostly on Drezi or Sky_Paladin wagon.
Weird or unsubstantiated votes on Ooba;
Kagami, Not Science
Weird or unsubstantiated votes on Sky;
Ankamius, Dan
Weird or unsubstantiated votes on Drezi;
Pie, Sakura (had to be called out), Guy In Freezer

Case Ooba is scum: Prime scum suspects.
Pie, Sakura, Ankamius, Dan
Case Ooba is town: Prime scum suspects non-voters (Mala, Gaiden). Anybody who switched between wagons (???).

Skipping Pie because progression of reads looks solid. Even though I hate them.
Many people think Sakura is scum, she should be lynch objective this day phase OR shoot her tonight?
Science: Not Science declared intent to vig Malakittens/Sakura so ignore Mala/Sakura and Not Science as targets tonight.
Kagami play solid -> town.
Remaining targets:
Dan, Ankamius, Ooba, Sakura.
Ank: Mainly looking at Relentless but no real push to get his so called main/only scum read lynched. Awful, would shoot. Comment about being not-shootable though so eh
Dan: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6635895
Defend Sakura (scum) from Pie. Defend SB (???) from Sky.
Ambivalent.
Remaining targets: Ooba, Sakura.
Sakura claims human/unviggable. The fact that she keeps referring to other games as examples of how she is town rather than posts in this game is fail.
Ooba 'negative utility'. fffffffffffffffffffffff

***

At this point I decided to cop but for obvious reasons I want to sit on this for a little bit.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:34 pm

He's someone I would want to seei n lylo as scum and not as town

If SB shared my role info with his neighbourhood, and anybody in his neighbourhood is scum (from recollection: Sakura), I won't be making it to LYLO. Guaranteed.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:38 pm

With Sakura confirmed scum I take a more negative view of Dan's comment below and the consolidation vote on to the same wagon that Sakura was currently voting:

I just don't like the all of a sudden Sakura vote on the heels of Pieguyn's budding suspicion. It's a vote whose reasons lie in the past and thus could have been acted upon much more immediately (even in the post where Kagami says Sakura is suspicious). Besides the timing of it, I find the reasons themselves for it weak, especially the muffin investigation thing. Since I believe that played out in the Pieguyn and her back and forth I'll mention I found that looked pretty legit there. And even were the suspicion solid it's abnormal that it's isolated in a sea of content that Kagami has really yet to touch.

Since I'm on the subject the exchange between Sakura and Pieguyn is stymied by the fact that there's a multi-game history being referenced continuously between posts but I think Sakura's responses look fine considering Pieguyn is simply overbearing. The visual I get is of a bunny rabbit being tormented by a Savannah highmane

Everytime Pieguyn issues forth a statement followed by a caveat regarding that statement I cringe. It has the effect of devaluing every post he makes where this occurs and it occurs in about every post. The effect is that I have a hard time determining if you believe what you are saying as opposed to saying something for the sake of being logical.

I think I have the exact opposite opinion so far to everything muffin has said. I think he's way too hard on Serene, which is a lot of his content and doesn't like Rylai much. But these opinions I think come from a town methodology in their construction and annunciation so far.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:44 pm

Also I should add the timebomb can be removed by me using a day use spell card. So it's not necessarily a scum card, I just auto assumed scum!Sakura!bomb since IIRC she was in the SDM claiming human, and the only human is Sakuya, who can manipulate time. Thematically it adds up.

Technically it could also have come from town that didn't believe my claim and didn't know I had a day use spell card, or from a player that wanted me to burn my day use spell card today. I expected somebody to be watching me so I wasn't too worried about death, so if a watcher saw who acted it is not necessarily an auto-scum result. Thank you.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:45 pm

Kagami

Do you know when it goes off and whether the kill is preventable?

See above post.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:46 pm

Oh, sorry. It goes off at phase end. So if the phase suddenly ended that could be a problem.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:58 pm

The flavor is: You will die at phase end if you do not play a day-spell card. There is an additional comment in the pm that specifically states if I am immune to it or not. I'm still weighing the pro/con of sharing this, given I may use a spell card today and not have to worry about it regardless.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1407 (isolation #92) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:24 pm

Claim ing Gaiden hit

At work post more later

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1578 (isolation #93) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:35 pm

Still at work. A wall is waiting when I get to the computer. iPhone update hoooo

I didn't hit Dan because:
1 - Scum team expected a hit on Dan so likely prepared counter measures (re:notty death)
2 - I successfully picked Notty hitting Sakura night 1 and I thought he would hit Dan.

3 - looking at Dans day 2 it is INCREDIBLY bad (saying he knows what the colours are about then saying he doesn't etc) and I feel it was the scum plan to set Dan up for hits on night 2. Even before the cop claim.

I copped SB night 1 and got town. I wanted to sit on this but then Muffin result + Dan made it clear who the lynch should be. I checked SB because I thought his alignment was the most critical to discern after day 1. Phase was locked before I could announce it.

Didn't shoot Ooba: concerned over " negative utility". Would lynch. Wagon analysis has two scum on me from day 1 and further review of comfy town + pseudo town yielded plausible scum among afk voters Gaiden/Mala. Additionally had seen Katsuki apparently act on Ooba night 1 with no comment day 2 and felt shooting Ooba was now risky and also irresponsible while information was yet to be played.
Didn't shoot Ank: shortlisted to shoot due to general uselesness + being found voting alongside scum on town. bulletproof claim, my shot was not strongman.

Want to hear what Katsuki did night 1.
Along with Dan, would be interested in Ooba/Mala lynch unless they do something.
There's more but iphone

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1582 (isolation #94) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:44 pm

As stated in my claim, I am conditionally immune to death at certain times. By coincidence, the bomb went off at a good time for me.

Ank: you voted for me day 1 for no reason given as consolidate two days out along with Sakura and Action Dan (and Kilga and SB). Sakura later changed her vote but you did not despite being present to do so. I take an increasingly poor view on non voters/poor voters the longer the game goes on.
SB was copped, Kilga I am not town clearing, however if I had to choose who to lunch out out of the game between those two, you are dead. That's why.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1587 (isolation #95) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:44 pm

You claimed to relentless that shooting you would be "wasting your teams shot"
After going through six of Sakuras games and finding that yes, reading the current game was sufficient to determine a scum slot, I basically do not consider "I always do xyz" as a clear. I think you are scummy and I will gladly see you dead, unless you do something that causes me to revise my assessment.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1588 (isolation #96) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:50 pm

Ebwodp but not before Dan and prooooobably Ooba.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1589 (isolation #97) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:54 pm

Are you specifically claiming not bulletproof?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1590 (isolation #98) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:01 pm

Am I correct in saying you saw the Drezi wagon form from zero votes but were content to vote park and offer no content or opinion whatsoever? Despite being observed and called out to vote/post on two occasions, you specifically had "no opinion" on any of the main wagons, of which you had three to choose from?

Sky_Paladin · Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:42 pm

In hindsight I'm not going to dump the huge wall of my notes from last night since it doesn't achieve anything I haven't already said.

Pie: I admit I was being a jerk towards you at the end of day 1 and I had wanted to vig you. I re-read the thread at night and calmed down, and after thinking I'd been vigged by SB earlier in the day, I can respect your feelings.

I spent a little while wondering why Sakura didn't submit the scum night kill since she was basically outed/dead. Which leads me to believe Dan submitted it on Kagami and expected to be picked up for it, but something went wrong and Kagami didn't die (which is consistent with Kagami having 'the other half' of my immunity as I could have died night 1). Dan then played his skip-the-day ability, then the scum team used some kind of defensive mechanism on Dan on night 2. It's possible that he auto-roleblocked anybody who targeted him and that's how Science died, or he became paranoid etc etc. I assume scum hit Muffin night 2.

I really want to get a report from Katsuki about what he did night 1 to Ooba for no apparent result, and Ooba hasn't commented on it.
I also want a claim from Ooba since he's 50% of the lynch pool today.

@Ooba

For me to be scum (and you town), we have to explain why ActionDan consolidates on to my wagon and refuses to change near phase end, and why I went for a very hard lynch of Drezi (town) over a fairly easy lynch of you. For no reason.

@Thdgkdms

The meanie that visited Lily last night destroyed all of Lily's spell cards which makes Lily very sad since Lily liked Lily's spell cards.

Since your cards have been destroyed, please consider if it's worth revealing what ones you had used up and the results you got from them.

@Mala

I asked people who I should use my spellcard on bc I thought Notty was vigging me last night.

No one fucken responded.

You are an adult person and you are capable of making your own terrible decisions without being handheld. A point in your favour is that you at least reported that you did this thing.

On what basis did you think Thdgkdms was scum?

@Ank

Explain this list of reads.
Highlighted for my pleasure:

Super Town
Ankamius
pieguyn
zMuffinMan

Probably Town
GuyInFreezer
Kagami

Malakittens

Shadoweh
thdgkdms

Atrophied Down to Nullish
Kilgamayan
SB
ooba

Scumlean
Katsuki

Rylai Crestfall (Goes down to heavy scumread with AD scumflip; goes up to nullish with AD townflip)

Sky_Paladin

Scum

ActionDan

You know Dan is scum since you have been 'paying attention to the game'. So why list Rylai's alignment to be indicated by a flip on Dan? More specifically, why is Rylai (and Rylai alone) alignment dependent on Dan?

Post

I don't inherently trust mason claims.

Unless you believe all of Kilga, Thdgkgms and Guy in Freezer are scum, or one of the two fairies lied about being town confirmed (and if so, the other would report it), Thdgkgms and Guy in Freezer are confirmed town.

1575

Then either scum have more power during the day (likely; virtually proven with AD scumflip), their powers during the night are mostly weak (least likely), or they have powers that aren't very indicative of scum usage (possible).

What is this? It looks like an attempt to justify a scum read on Rylai for no real reason. I want to kill this slot next please.

1584

It was ridiculous enough that saying anything would've been a complete waste of breath. If people cared enough about why I was around and not voting for Drezi, they'd ask me themselves. My stance was obvious enough by the fact that I was specifically not moving my vote anyway.

At what point did you decide that Drezi was scum

because that is what you essentially did by remaining silent as he was pulled apart slowly over 48 hours while you watched on silently

and deliberately

. And if you thought he was scum, why didn't you vote for him?

In 696, responding to Relentless who threatened to vig you, Ank said:

Have fun wasting your shot.

Just now he said, in 1586

Actually, now that I look at it, I don't understand why you think I claimed bulletproof either.

This

looks

to me that he got his role mixed up, or is making up things. I can accept that he would want to fudge being night immune but the fact that he specifically brought it up as something I had 'got wrong' when he had distinctly stated it earlier in the game looks very bad.

Relentless was your main scum read at the time. If you believed he is scum, why would you say he is 'wasting his shot' to kill you, if you didn't have some kind of defensive mechanism?

Sky_Paladin · Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:12 am

Dan, you told us at the start of day 2 you knew what the colors were about, so I'm assuming it's a scum misdirection thing or some of those players could magically explode. I don't know.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Kagami's lynch order. Mala flaking out and refusing to name scum reads/failing to claim her night 1 activity is really concerning though.

@Katsuki

What did you try to do to Ooba night 1? Was there a result that we can use?

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:25 am

I'm going to go with Ooba/Dan today, pending further information re: Katsuki.

I note that Ooba appears to have been active elsewhere and appears to be deliberately stalling/avoiding discussion here. This little post tells us nothing of value.

This aside, Ank is quickly rising as my preferred third lynch.

Ank
1617
blah blah blah

The problem is that you listed Dan as 'scum'. Not 'possible scum' or 'potential scum' or even 'very likely scum'. You said

scum

in the same post where you listed Rylai as alignment indicated by Dan's flip. If you know he is scum then you should damn well list Rylai as scum in your list, and you didn't do it, so your reads are faked. The end.

Malakittens is town because of neighborhood interactions.

Malakittens is calling you scum because of those exact same interactions.

Do you agree with her that you are scum? Why? Why not?

If you believe this is true, then there's nothing that would prove it to be false, in which case there's no real point to dwell on it.

Don't play coy. You brought the masons comment up because you were asked you why you didn't have confirmed town in the confirmed town slot.
You also aren't doing anything to put your supposed scum reads - Katsuki, Rylai, or myself - up on the block and are purely defending your slot.

Passive-aggressive without any justification for why I'm wrong.

You said this:

Then either scum have more power during the day (likely; virtually proven with AD scumflip), their powers during the night are mostly weak (least likely), or they have powers that aren't very indicative of scum usage (possible).

How was this indicative of scum anybody? What were you trying to achieve here? It looks like fake content and that's why I called you on it.

That's the point. I never thought Drezi was scum.

You were around at phase end and could easily have addressed your vote until after hammer, but you declined to do so. I can't help but take a negative view of that. Your actual post after hammer was:

I have no regrets whatsoever even with a scumflip.

That statement could easily have come from scum, so, can you explain more about it please?

Like I said in my last post, I have a role that is wasted if I get shot.

That is not what you said.
What you said was:

c. Getting shot is a waste of my role. I will die if shot, but it's not productive for either alignment to.

About the only way I could see this to be true is if you are a tree stump. We already have one of those.
Why is it not productive for scum to shoot you, given that their objective is to kill a whole bunch of us, and that you are claiming to be one of us?

Doesn't change the fact that it's playstyle over alignment.

If you're playstyle is scummy enough to get you lynched, you might want to reflect on that for future games.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:31 am

your vote before hammer,

sighduck.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:32 am

Ooba

I *really* do not want to claim today.

You should have claimed day 1

. It is now day 3 and you are very likely to be lynched.
Can you give us any information that can rule you out for a lynch?

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:09 pm

@Ank

This is pure bullshit and you already know it just from how you worded this section. You're correct in that I didn't say it as 'possible scum', 'potential scum', or even 'very likely scum.' You might also notice that I didn't put 'confirmed scum' or any other variant either.You're grasping at straws and the fact that you're trying to force the engagement shut directly after doing it is really slimy.

blah blah blah you are guilty as charged, I see.

I'm doing the very opposite. I'm directly confronting you, and asking you to talk about your motivation and reads. Well, specifically because I think they are fake, but getting you to talk is how others and I can resolve if you are more scummy/less scummy than other players. Consider my engagements with SB, Kilga, Sakura, and Pieguy from day 1. I'm always going somewhere. Now it's your turn.

When I posted my list of reads, you asked for one or two sentences for every scum read (which was half the game at that point). I'd like to see you do the same thing, please.

This is a false question. Thinking someone is town from interactions is completely different from agreeing with them. I think Malakittens is wrong (beyond what she was already wrong on), but I don't think the thought processes are scum-motivated. The only thing that's really weird about her play is how she got to the conclusion that there has to be a scum in our neighborhood, but it doesn't translate very strongly to scum behavior.

You listed Mala as 'probably town', despite many players scum reading her, based on these supposed interactions in your topic that nobody can read except Mala and Kilga. Town are very likely to have to lynch between you, Katsuki and Mala in day 4. Can you give us some reason for being able to rule out Mala or yourself as scum? I accept you can't copy from the topic, but can you post comment numbers, say why you think it's town, and then we can at least have Kilga agree/disagree if what you said make sense.
Otherwise we have no way to identify if you are just fabricating reads.

Yet you're the only person who I have an issue with a scumread of me on.

I can read people attacking me better than any other situation I end up in, and your attack pings harder every time you post about it.

I have an issue with bad votes. You consolidate voted 48 hours away from phase end, and did nothing to support/stop a Drezi lynch. It increasingly seems likely that Ooba is scum, so that means when you had a choice of three wagons, you consolidated on to the main lynch counterwagon to scum. And didn't re-evaluate. You were around and could have done something, and I contend that town would have. You didn't do anything, and I think that's the scum mindset.

"I can read people attacking etc" that is what we call confirmation bias, chum.

I'm asking you to explain your reads in greater detail because your preliminary explanations do not make intuitive sense.

GIF was attacking my scumread on Rylai because of the global track card he played on D1. I was listing off reasons that would make it less harmful for scum to have it as one of their powers. How exactly is this fake content or fluff?

Huh, so I'm not the 'only player' who has an issue ^_~
Although I will agree that I would like it if Rylai stepped up their play. It's too easy to handwave somebody as town because they have a town-sounding ability. Scumdocs do exist, after all.
OK I'll drop this point.

We literally just went full circle.

No we literally did not.
I want you to explain why you were sitting around at the end of the phase, with the sudden emergence of a third wagon whom you were supposedly town reading, and did nothing to support him (given Ooba had more votes than I did at this point and Ooba is increasingly likely to be scum). I don't accept "nobody asked my opinion" as a valid reason. This is a communative game, you are supposed to give your opinion no matter how stupid sounding it might be.
You didn't update your vote or even address why maintaining your vote park was okay, which would also have been acceptable. After I said that your actions were indicative of a scum read on Drezi, you said you didn't have a scum read on Drezi.
If you were really town reading Drezi, as you said you were, I feel that a town player would have said or done something. You didn't do anything except post 'Hi' after being called out for lurking.

Ooba is probably dying this phase along with Dan. If Ooba flips scum, (which you seem to agree with since you've got Ooba dropping down towards scum in your read list) then you're caught voting on the town counterwagon to scum, alongside flipped scum Sakura and Dan. The motive of your inaction and bad vote is the critical question that must be resolved before Ooba flips. I'm asking you to explain this thought in great detail because this is the sole point that your alignment can be demonstrated easily by you. And I'm seeing you evade and actually double back instead of answering evenly, and so I think the reason is -> you are scum.

How are those two statements you quoted any different?

In your point c, you imply that your role has some value (some strategic value) that is wasted if you die. That means that there's a strategic reason for why scum might want to kill you, e.g spell cards/abilities you have.
In your follow up, you left this out.
You then ramble on about scum wifom

Unless my reads happen to be spot on or they're wary of me suddenly slingshotting onto the right track, killing me is a waste of time for them.

and how scum would rather kill useful, contributing townies, that by coincidence, might include you.

These points are not in alignment, just like your reads are not in alignment, just like your actions day 1 are not in alignment.

This statement came out of nowhere too.

I'm seeing town stagnate/lose motivation because we have a confirmed scum and the secondary wagon, Ooba, isn't doing anything to defend itself. So I want to get a headstart on the next day phase by looking for a third (and fourth) lynch candidate. When we have MuffinMan, who isn't obligated to play any further, posting more content than most of the town combined, that's a problem.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:46 pm

I'm okay with Dan/Katsuki as our one-day-past-scumday ritual sacrifices to our zombie overlord. I hope we can repeat it with Ooba/Ank in the next day phase.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:07 pm

Ooba is scum because he confirmed that he posted his reads in the topic at the start of the phase.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:18 pm

Cupcake did use an ability on Ooba N1, but it wasn't the neighbourise ability

Katsuki claimed that his night action was neighbourise Ooba, so he didn't use a secret card during the day phase. This action was tracked by Rylai.

Ooba claimed that he posted his reads at the start of the night phase, but that means the neighbourhood also had to be there from the start of the night phase, and that means it had to be submitted during the day phase. Which we just evaluated isn't true.

In other words, Katsuki lied about his action that targeted Ooba, and Ooba lied about posting in the quicktopic that doesn't exist.

They're both scum.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:21 pm

We discussed reads. Katsuki talked about how he wasn't that familiar with everyone in the playlist and it wasn't as easy as our last two FG games.

I posted my initial reads at the start at N1
. Then did Sakura's ISO. Did not discuss everything like the other QT but just said that my scumdar is acting up on GiF.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:24 pm

In your quote, Ooba is referring to the Mala/Kilga/Ank neighbourhood.
In my quote, Ooba is referring to the Ooba/Katsuki neighbourhood.

Or did you just get confused between the neighbourhood and your scum topic?!?!?!?! DUN DUN DUN.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:15 pm

Anamikus is the first to point this out.

I don't understand.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:20 pm

No, Ank was quoting from your Mala/Kilga/Sakura topic where you did stuff on night 1.

Your 'mistype' was from your Ooba/Katsuki topic.

You have mixed up what you said in the Ooba/Katsuki topic as something you have said in the Mala/Kilga/Sakura topic.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:22 pm

I find it hard to believe Obba would be confused about what night and where he did things, although seeing both him and Ank made the same mistake is headdesk.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:28 pm

OK. *rubs eyes*

I've got Ooba's not!katsuki topic mixed up with Kilga/Mala/Ooba's topic.

God

Just

Can you remind me who is in what topics because this is seriously retarded.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:30 pm

So there's Yukari's Gap -> Ooba/Katsuki. Indicates one of these players is Yukari flavorclaim.

Then there's Pie/Mala/Kilga/Sakura/Ank in some other place, I'm assuming SDM because of the flips.

And now there's another one with Ooba and ??? called Myoren temple.

Cut okay great thanks.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:39 pm

So Ank isn't even in the topic with you and made the same error. OK.

Muffin, sorry if I blew up your line of questioning here.

***

The point I was trying to make was that Ooba wrote his Sakura ISO on night 2 in the Ank topic. And apparently he wrote a lot about me in there too.
When Ooba 'mistyped' night 1, it was when he was talking about the Katsuki topic, not the Ank topic.

That's why I don't understand the significance of highlighting that Ank incorrectly attributed comments said in the Katsuki topic to the Ank topic, because Ooba made sure to stress that he did this in the Katsuki topic:

We discussed reads. Katsuki talked about how he wasn't that familiar with everyone in the playlist and it wasn't as easy as our last two FG games.

I posted my initial reads at the start at N1. Then did Sakura's ISO. Did not discuss everything like the other QT but just said that my scumdar is acting up on GiF.

And he did this in the Ank topic:

We get active in the temple QT and I do a Sakura ISO. Post the GiF thought.

When we consider the two sentences in the context of what Ooba did in the Ank topic, we get the following:

Discussion in the Ank topic night 2:
Post reads, Sakura ISO, posts GiF thought.

Discussion in the Katsuki topic night 2:
Post reads, Katsuki complains.

So how does Ank confuse what was said on night 2 in the Katsuki topic if he's never seen it?

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:44 pm

I'm not making sense. I'm too tired. I know what I want to say and it's not coming out. I'll take a break and try again later.

I'm happy with Dan and one of Ooba or Katsuki for today's lynch.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:11 am

:/ I think I'm the only living player NOT either psuedo-masoned or in a neighbourhood. Poor Youmu. Nobody loves me. Gonna go eat some worms.

Hey Lillies, what would happen if somebody who was not Lily announced that Spring was here?

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:13 am

To answer your question more seriously, Kilga - I just got confused (and still am) by all the neighbourhoods.

I thought that I had caught Ank correcting something from a neighbourhood he shouldn't have access to. So i was excited by that. But it turns out I was confused by who was in what neighbourhood so nothing came of it. Ank is plenty scummy on his own basis, but I didn't have the slam dunk that I thought it was.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:29 am

Oh, you mean the spell card use. Which meant that Momiji isn't in the SDM. Okay.

I tried to hold the different neighbourhood groups together in my head and I clumped them together incorrectly. At the time I was looking for topic titles - we had Yukari's Gap, Myouren temple, and I didn't know the last one but SB was in it as Patchy so I thought it must be SDM. I tried to associate players by relationships, not by flavor.

Then there's Muffins which I guess is probably...Eintei...and if there was a Yuyuko, I'm sure we'd be chatting in the Netherworld. Sadly I don't have access to the gyard topic as expected.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:34 am

To answer on the Lilies' behalf, nothing would happen.

It's just that, in the flavor, my character and Spring...you know.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:22 am

That's okay Katsuki! Just answer one question and we can all be friends.

What did you talk to Ooba about on night 1?

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:50 pm

I guess I knew in my heart it wouldn't be so easy, but I had to try.

By the way, do you want to clarify this remark?

I have a feeling this is going to devolve into people stomping all over my scumgame because apparently
I suck at scum
or something

I feel like you meant to say 'suck at mafia' but accidentally claimed scum instead.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:08 pm

Ooba claimed in the neighborhood that actions that targeted him night 1 would fail.

That means Katsuki's alleged Neighbourizer shot on night 1 would have failed, too, and both Ooba and Katsuki have 'confirmed' that they spoke night 2.

Game over.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:08 pm

VOTE: Katsuki

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:13 pm

I propose a 3 way rap battle and/or ballad rock off to decide which of the three scums we lynch today.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:20 pm

hahahahahahaaha

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:38 pm

blah blah blah

It's day 3. That means Katsuki neighbourized another player night 2, and nobody has spoken up to say "Hey guys I can confirm Katsuki's role" and at the very least one topic of conversation in your fake topic would have been "hmm who do you think we should invite in here."

Neither of you ever said anything about it and you've both been incredibly sketchy about your roles, what you talked about, and when you did it.

So basically even if you full claimed I wouldn't believe it. You're dead to me, Ooba.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:56 pm

IIRC we resolved that a player can use a spell card and an ability in the same night phase. This was the basis of the Katsuki neighbourise one of Mala/Ank plan, if we left Katsuki around.

So for this to be true, we are assuming Katsuki decided not to neighbourise a player, despite saying earlier in the thread that he loves neighbourhoods.

In any case, the fact that Katsuki/Ooba didn't at least discuss "Who should we invite next/sorry got other plans" is a no brainer.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:39 pm

Re: Ooba
He claimed investigation immune and when asked if he was a miller said no. He said investigation abilities will fail but that "nothing bad would happen" if Muffin used his gladiator card. He strongly crumbed ascetic and then changed his story once an action had been "confirmed" on him. The action was obviously scum doc in response to my threat to vig Ooba.

So far Oobas claim is "immune to investigations."
What role is immune to investigation? Godfather.

If you are immune to investigation only then you claim immune to investigation so as not to waste towns resources as if it was a miller claim, you don't hedge your bets and avoid clarifying anything until forced.

Ooba still hasn't claimed and has no intention of claiming. Not even a flavor claim yet. We lynch Ooba, Katsuki can prove himself by neighboring somebody. We lynch Katsuki and if he's not Yukari then we know the flavor claim is faked.

Mala should replace out if she can't play the game tbh.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:07 pm

There's also the likelihood that scum may kill off one of our bonus voter players, so we should smoke our cards while we've got them.

Pie, if you think there's some way we could get a third lynch, I'm all for it.

My preferred lynches are Dan/Katsuki/Ooba and then I had Ank/Mala as people I wouldn't mind disappearing overnight.

Kilga, it's just that Ank only posts when people say his name and his content since half way through day 1 has been entirely reactionary in response to my questioning. When I raged at SB, you, and Pie, I ultimately left feeling like you guys were town. I didn't get that with Sakura, and I didn't get that with Ank. Ank has made no effort to get any of his supposed scum reads lynched, and all of his reads are entirely circumstantial and questionable. Rylai: 'Because Dan might be scum'. Sky 'Because he's scumreading me'. Katsuki ??? it is a mystery. He showed up only to confirm that yes he has some awesome role please don't pressure me or do anything to disturb my happy invisible lurksack slot.

Mala should replace or appear with *content*. She's barely active in other parts of the forum so I believe she is legitimately busy, but if you're too busy to commit to the game you have no business signing up.
Content meaning reads on more than just one or two players.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:37 pm

If you have time I am interested in hearing abou your CURRENT reads too, Mala. Thanks <3

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:40 pm

I really dont care what you think about your other games are like, but I do really care who you think is scum this game and why. Please keep the conversation to this game since you don't apparently have time to write a lot. Many thanks.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:41 pm

We also don't know where you stand so please share. I don't care what bullshit reason you give for scum reading player x just put something out there.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:42 pm

I don't give a shit. Name your reads.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:55 pm

Ank wow dude no. No you did not.

You first mentioned me, ever, here.

You are literally only scum reading me

because I had you in my scum list

.

You are completely making up your reads.

Mala: I literally do not give a shit about your night 1 reads. I am interested in your current reads which you, apparently, have none.

Cut

Ok. I guess that beats me voting for Mala like I had planned to.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:58 pm

'but no mention of the rollback spell card. ' What is this?

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:03 pm

Also: He claimed SB-cop after Muffin claimed SB\AD

This was incredibly frustrating for me because I thought "SB is the lynchpin of D1 interactions, I figure somebody needs to know his alignment" and I chose to cop instead of shooting N1. Then I chose to sit on the result because I believed outing that SB was town would just get him shot in N2. Then Muffin came out with his result and I was ffffffff.

Muffin's result was only "at least one of these guys is scum" so a town clear on SB is a little helpful, but I admit it's not as convenient as it could be. The timing sucks and I'm annoyed. If I could have a do-over, I would have shot Ooba or Ank N1 instead. Probably Ooba at the moment.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:04 pm

"What do you think about sky's interactions with the known scum?"

I would have thought Sakura's tunelling and Dan's suicidal attempt to kill me on D2 were give-aways, but you know. WIFOm.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:32 pm

Mala did you do anything n1?

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:03 pm

Day 1 final tally.

ooba [5] - Kilgamayan,

thdgkdms

,

Sakura Hana

,

notscience

, Kagami
Sky_Paladin [5] - Kilgamayan, Ankamius,

SB

,

ActionDan

,

Drezi

[10] - Kilgamayan,

zMuffinMan

, Rylai Crestfall, Sky_Paladin, ooba, Shadoweh, Katsuki, pieguyn,

Sakura Hana

,

GuyInFreezer

[LYNCH]

Not Voting [2] -

SXTLHGaiden, Malakittens

I'm basing the town clears on thdgkdms and GIF on account of Kilga's confirmation that they're town clear is legit; although this doesn't actually clear Kilga by itself.

I shot Gaiden night 2 because I couldn't decide if Ooba was scum; if Ooba was town that would mean scum were picking between three town wagons and I expected them to be evenly distributed amongst the wagons or amongst the afk voters. Now all the afk voters are flipped, with Kilga and Kagami generally town read by players, I feel confident that no scum

solo voted

for Ooba, but we've got flipped scum on both Sky and Drezi. Drezi flipped town, and I will too eventually. Sakura was voting both Sky/Ooba until the Drezi wagon overtook it and after pressure from me she switched. I'm not sure what kind of value we can take from this. On the surface, my feeling is that Ooba is probably scum, and that's why we see most of the players we want flipped on the Drezi wagon.

Orange

= general scum read by players.

Green

= general town read by players.

ooba [5] -

Kilgamayan

,

thdgkdms

,

Sakura Hana

,

notscience

,

Kagami

Sky_Paladin [5] -

Kilgamayan

,

Ankamius

,

SB

,

ActionDan

,

Drezi

[10] -

Kilgamayan

,

zMuffinMan

,

Rylai Crestfall

, Sky_Paladin,

ooba

,

Shadoweh

,

Katsuki

,

pieguyn

,

Sakura Hana

,

GuyInFreezer

[LYNCH]

In fact, if you include me amongst the general scum reads as pushed by both Ooba and Ankamius (who are both general scum reads), you're left with the following lynch result from day 1:

ooba [5] -

Kilgamayan

,

thdgkdms

,

Sakura Hana

,

notscience

,

Kagami

Sky_Paladin [5] -

Kilgamayan

,

Ankamius

,

SB

,

ActionDan

,

Drezi

[10] -

Kilgamayan

,

zMuffinMan

,

Rylai Crestfall

,

Sky_Paladin, ooba,

Shadoweh

,

Katsuki

,

pieguyn

,

Sakura Hana

,

GuyInFreezer

[LYNCH]

So if I was looking at it from a not-me perspective, from this I would conclude that Drezi was the town counterwagon to a scum lynch of either Sky or Ooba and would argue strongly for the flip of either of these on this basis. To be frank, Ank should have argued this point if he was seriously trying to lynch me.

I would then factor in Day 2. The bomb apparently came from town (Pie claimed it), and scum couldn't communicate during the day phase. Assuming I was scum, there would be no way for me to communicate to my supposed scum buddy, Dan, that I was safe, except by explicitly stating it in the thread - which I did not do. I did state that I could avoid the bomb by playing a spell card, however Dan terminated the day phase before I could do so, presumably to kill me. Since Dan was already 50% confirmed scum due to Muffin's card, he was living on borrowed time - even by killing off scum!Sky, he would never have evaded a lynch once town!SB had flipped.

This seems like an unlikely strategy.

That would necessarily leave Ooba as the best option for a scum flip purely from wagon analysis.

Combined with the continued neighbours shenanigans and refusal to claim even his flavor, I'm going to push for a Dan/Ooba lynch today. If Ooba flips town, I expect to face tough questions as the expected scum counter wagon to town!Ooba and town!Drezi lynch of day 1. However I don't expect him to flip town.

UNVOTE: Katsuki
VOTE: Ooba

Re: Mala vig;
It's a shame that we basically wasted two vig shots on terrible players that turned out to be town. However, I support the removal of trash players from the game and look forward to our double lynch of Ank + one of Ooba/Katsuki tomorrow.

Re: Ank

Anyone who ISOs me and looks will be able to tell why that response is so bad.

I went through your ISO

so that is how I know that you didn't start to scum read me until after I posted my list of vigged reads. You came out with ITT Sky_Paladin conveniently forgets that I've been scumreading him since before I even voted him D1 as a response to my my point that:

Ank only posts when people say his name and
his content since half way through day 1 has been entirely reactionary in response to my questioning
. When I raged at SB, you, and Pie, I ultimately left feeling like you guys were town. I didn't get that with Sakura, and I didn't get that with Ank. Ank has made no effort to get any of his supposed scum reads lynched, and
all of his reads are entirely circumstantial and questionable
. Rylai: 'Because Dan might be scum'.
Sky 'Because he's scumreading me'
. Katsuki ??? it is a mystery. He showed up only to confirm that yes he has some awesome role please don't pressure me or do anything to disturb my happy invisible lurksack slot.

Instead of spamming non-content snipe posts asking people to vig me, why don't you actually lay out a case? Or do you have none, and you are just fabricating your reads? That's what I thought.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:43 am

Just a quick one before zzz

I think godfather on which investigations fail on isn't too imbalanced though.

That is word for word what Ooba claimed so far...

Also it was quite obvious that Dan was the lynch D2 - in the scenario where you're his scum partner, his termination of the day phase
(a) Saves you from Pie's bomb
(b) Also sets up this defence ('He did it to kill me')

Terminating the phase didn't save me from the bomb, it actually set it off instantly and I would have died except *special condition* which I had not stated in thread. Pie can confirm I should have died. SB can confirm I should not have died. etc.

i mean no offense to sky (or titus, i guess), but while i have agreed with some of the things he's written, others just seem to be missing pieces of key information, forgetting certain events or aspects of the game, or thinking about it in a way that doesn't really make a lot of sense to me

No offense taken. I freely admit that the game is in scope too big for me to hold entirely in my head and I should write down the neighbourhoods so I don't get them mixed up etc etc. I am writing a 3D engine in C++ and the quaternion math has been taking up a lot of my processing power in my head for problem solving. Also I've been drunk pretty much constantly since Wednesday and my holiday started.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:15 pm

I am afk for the main part of the time remaining. Can we please consolidate on to Dan + 1 other, or request a phase extend due to the weekend inactivity.

My preference is Dan + Ooba, Ooba for many many reasons, not the least ones being that he apparently claimed FakeGod's version of Godfather, and day 1 wagon analysis suggests he is scum. Also he won't even flavor claim come on.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:50 pm

I'll be around again in approx 12 hours to change my vote if necessary.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:26 pm

Shadoweh: I had claimed 1 shot cop and threatened to cop Ooba. In response he claimed investigative immune. After hinting at "negative utility" re: Sakura card block but never exPlained how. fits with ascetic crumbs but not inv immune.
iirc rylai said something like "he didn't claim miller he claimed inv immune" or something, I can't check right now because phone. Obviously begs question of did rylai have secret role knowledge or is he town minded helpful person who can read between lines and chose to suddenly speak up now nice timing etc
If Ooba flips scum could revisit case of scum!Rylai so hmm
But would prefer Ooba/Dan over Rylai Dan
Would Also necessarily reconsider town!Ank if Ooba flips scum in light of possible Rylai/Ooba conmection because of his suggestion of Rylai scum re Dan flip.

Plum trees and ikebana brb 12 hours

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:50 pm

Something like
Sky: imma cop you Ooba!!!
Ooba: it will fail
Sky: you are miller? Why not claim Miller
Ooba: I'm not Miller just actions fail
Rylai: I think he claimed inv immune
Ooba: yes that's right

So Ooba never claimed. Rylai made a claim and Ooba just agreed with it

I am on a train and a phone cannot read I detail please check

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:27 pm

I suddenly feel like all the people who had red names day 2 are going to ex

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:28 pm

Plode because the blue name died :C

Thanks for the auto submit, iPhone.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:30 pm

Your scenario completely makes sense if you assume Ooba is scum instead of me, right down to a scum voting for Ooba.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:33 pm

As in I can't see how you would write all that and not automatically think oh right maybe the reason scum didn't push the easy wagon on Ooba is because Ooba is scum.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:44 pm

SB, Pie, Ank. We need one more vote on Dan and two more on Katsuki/three more on Ooba if I recall correctly. Otherwise our dream of double lynching scum cannot come true. We have less than 12 hours to phase end so get to it.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:47 pm

I have no interest lynching Rylai without a scum flip on Ooba. I can re evaluate Rylai/Dan interactions when I get home but irrespective we probably can't start that wagon this close to phase end.

Go check the tally. We need people at five votes for her card to double slam. I'm on my phone and can't check easily.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:59 pm

Ok great. I couldn't keep track of all the votes. I guess SB and Ooba can vote Kats to give Shadoweh a choice in case Ooba finally claims and it really is too good to kill off.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:08 pm

Pie, when and why did you start town reading me?

Sky_Paladin · Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:12 am

Shadoweh, is there any reason why you can't place your own vote, and then use your spell card?

Sky_Paladin · Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:15 am

It just seems obvious, that's all...

Although I will admit Ank's failure to vote doesn't surprise me.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:49 am

Yes, it is too late. The time to claim was day 1 when wagons were asked to claim. Or about half way through day 3 when we were asking for a claim.

Even if it's true, we probably have to go through with the lynch. Otherwise, scum will kill him at a time that benefits them most of all (e.g. the night before LYLO).

We need the flavor claim because I know what Muffinman is talking about.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:16 am

We *especially* need a flavor claim from Ooba, so if you can give it on his behalf, that would be excellent.

There's only five hours left to phase end. If we did organise a last minute change of wagon from Ooba, the counterwagon would be you, Katsuki. Are you going to full claim now and save us the trouble?

You apparently sat on this all phase while we argued back and forth between you and Ooba. After you spent the entirety of day 1 calling me stupid and made a large number of direct insults towards me for my play, for you to pull this out at the very end of the phase is really unacceptable.

I'm actually furious with you so I'll leave it at this.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:16 am

You = Katsuki.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:48 am

I can only stay up for about ten more minutes.

Should we ask for a phase extend?

Sky_Paladin · Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:59 am

L oh ell. Ok then.

@FakeGod

Requesting this day phase be extended up to the 8 day standard day phase for this game on account of this phase unexpectedly being 3 days shorter. Somehow this caught some players by surprise.

That should be enough time for Ooba to full claim, SB and Ank to vote, and Shadoweh to use her spell card.

To everybody else

I'm going to bed. If Fakegod doesn't give the phase extend then please consolidate vote Dan because if we can't lynch confirmed scum this game is done.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:10 am

Ooba's flip strongly suggests Katsuki/Ank scum so I want full claims from both of them.

I am mildly interested in a Rylai claim after that has been done.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:02 pm

lol who wouldn't replace in to a confirmed town slot?

I'm not really interested in any of our confirmed towns claiming until our pool of primary lynch suspects is empty. So, I'm fine with Muffin/SB's replacement/GiF keeping their secrets until we have no other options. Shadoweh is basically confirmed town for me too after yesterday's double-kill. I say this having hammered Shadoweh when she's shot scum before, so I'm confident this is a clear for her.

Really interested in Katsuki's claim because at the moment he's either scum or too stupid to live. Ank is next for generally the same reasons, however yesterday's no-vote/refusal to accept scum Ooba despite laying out why Ooba is scum.

Ah let's see who is left.

Rylai - From play, I don't like Rylai. It's hard to see their spellcard on n1 as a scum card though. If it was a scum card, how would they use it? Surely to try to get a fake doc clear? EG Dan targeting Kagami, we never heard anything about that from either player iirc. I could see Rylai as scum from playstyle so I would like to see a claim AFTER Katsuki/Ank and only if we've decided not to lynch one of them this day phase.

Kagami/Pie - take your pick. I'm pretty sure Pie has claimed everything by now; used a bomb on me, spellcard on Mala, totes Remilia and hated. Kagami I actually know nothing about. I could be interested in a Kagami claim mainly for the sake of it's day 4 now, surely you've done something.

I've claimed everything about my role except for my immunity condition, which confirmed town SB knows. If he's shared it in his QT before N1 then scum knows it (because Sakura was in there iirc) so I might as well spill the beans. Otherwise it's best kept secret for now.

cut
wffff waow.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:04 pm

Which QT are you in again, Shadoweh?

Sky_Paladin · Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:14 pm

You have to accept that the appeal of "Shadoweh knows because scum!Sakura told her" is really hard to ignore.

So we can hopefully skip this step if our SB replacement fferylit can confirm SB said nothing about it prior to the start of day 2.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:30 pm

I accept that you can put two and two together, I just question why you would announce it as town OR scum. Being able to rule out that you just read it from a scum QT would be great, too.

That's why I want to know if SB wrote it in his QT, since that means Sakura saw it, and if Sakura saw it, scum saw it.

I'm not saying you are definitely scum if SB said it. It's just a possibility I want to consider.

cut: I'm actually feeling like PGO-enabler. When I saw Dan set himself up to be shot, and then Science died, that was my first thought. When I saw Katsuki target the supposed night-immune and now apparently scum-flipped Ooba, that's what I suspected. I could see Kilga investigating Katsuki since he already checked Ank, and scum probably would have anticipated this.

So in this scenario, I'm thinking scum!Katsuki + one other, or scum!Katsuki self-target.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:31 pm

Katsuki, if the next words out of your mouth don't start with some form of "My role is", I am voting you.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:36 pm

If he doesn't claim, then we lynch him and get his flip. I am okay with this.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:23 pm

FF: You are town clear because I copped you for SB = TOWN. This is a non-bastard setup so I'm assuming no insane cop hilarity.

GiF/thghghasd confirmed town because their role pms apparently allowed them to mutually confirm each other, were both confirmed town by Kilga, before he heroically exploded.
Muffin modconfirmed town but also treestump.

Sky/Pie/Kagomi/Shadoweh probably town because lynching all the scums.

Rylai probably town because role shenanigans.

Kats/Ank probably scum for many reasons.

Also FF: Can you confirm if SB mentioned my ability re: immunity in the neighbour QT on day 1/night 1? I want to be able to rule this bit out. Thanks.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:24 pm

I'd like to see claims in this order:
Katsuki -> Ank -> Rylai.

Mostly because Rylai actually voted to lynch scum in day 3 and Ank sat on his ass and complained that we weren't lynching Sky.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:30 pm

Is it not true?

Your posts in day 3 read like a ballad where you desperately beg for people to vote for me instead of Ooba.

Here's your last post of the day:

I'm torn. I can see a few things that could be scum theatre, but by and large I can't really think of how it would be comparable to how much bussing would have to be involved for it to really work.

The closest I can get is them trying to hard-bus their scumbuddy in D1 for towncred, then having Sakura unvote when the Drezi wagon really gets going while ActionDan stays on to keep it believable. The problem with this is that it's more dangerous than just going for the ooba wagon and pushing that through; I'd expect that the 4th player in the scumteam would be on that wagon for sure if this was somehow the case.

You were not fucking torn. Your choice was between voting confirmed scum Dan, or basically confirmed scum Ooba, and you chose: Nobody.

In fact you laid out an amazing case as to why Ooba was scum by wagon analysis (copied from my own, of course) but then failed to actually consider the scenario of what if Ooba was scum.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:21 pm

@Ank

Do you have a role related reason for wanting Rylai to claim before you?

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:55 am

Not much to contribute right now. I feel like my game is basically over and now I'm just waiting for people to claim. So...

I do kind of take a dim view of Rylai's opening post "wow 2 kills wtf" as kind of the same as "no kills, good job doc" type of scum commentary.

Ooba and Katsuki both replaced in - Relentless actually dropped out because Serene Forest had bailed. I find it odd that Katsuki and Ooba both seemed to have picked up their slots relationship even though the players had changed.

If nothing happens I'll vote Katsuki.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:28 pm

So uh you have no scum reads lol?

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:36 pm

No it's cool I was just playing. You are confirmed town from my perspective so do as you please. Also I'm reassured that you read the game and basically came to the same conclusion as everybody else. Makes me feel like we're not missing any headdesk things at this stage.

Please continue.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:13 pm

Re: SB (aka You)
The big interaction that we saw in day 1 was when SB made a joke about bussing Pie, which Serene/Ooba voted him for. Shortly after, Serene/Ooba hopped off and on to Shadoweh, which I flagged as suspicious (correct ^_^).
I became suspicious of SB's motives for voting Serene/Ooba kind of after-the-fact, and when I looked in to his reasoning for re-voting Pie it didn't progress in a way that I felt natural.
So I felt that there was likely to be scum between SB and Serene/Ooba. That meant at some level there had to be some kind of bussing going on. SB/Serene/Pie (and Sky!) all spent a lot of day 1 making cases and voting each other. Near the end of day 1 I was absolutely through with Pie and was sure he was scum, too. So I was picking between SB/Ooba/Pie to vig.

After Drezi flipped town I cooled off. I was so sure he was scum so I went back and re-read the players I'd been dealing with (by now I was confident Sakura was scum, but she'd claimed human, and my vig couldn't hit her).
I felt that Pie's progression of reads, while I hated them, appeared natural. There was also a lot of content. I felt that it would be better to case Pie after some more players had flipped, then go back and see what they'd done - Pie had interacted with many players, so it would be harder for them to fake content. So I considered Pie town because of content and activity, even though day 1 I just wanted to vig them out of the game. Ironically they tried to kill me so yay mercy.

That left my initial pool of SB/Ooba. I also had Ank as a vig target but he'd implied bulletproof so I decided not to shoot him, and Ooba had claimed some kind of night action immunity, so I didn't want to cop/shoot there. That left SB or Ank for a cop. Out of the two of them, the interactions with SB were far more frequent and knowing SB's faction would make it easier to go back and read those interactions.

So that's why I copped SB. I thought finding out if he was town was just as important as finding out if he was scum.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:21 pm

I didn't mention it because muffin's cop didn't town clear SB. At least as I understand parity cop, when he said 'There is

at least

one scum between Dan and SB' does not exclude the possibility of both SB and Dan being scum.

I had a result that said you were town though so that's what I reported.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:31 pm

vs an investigation that went a long damn time not being shared,

To be fair, I announced I had made a cop shot right at the start of day 2 and that I was going to wait until later in the phase to indicate the result. Dan then tried to kill me and ended the phase. I then claimed the cop shot as my second post (the first was "I shot gaiden night 2") very early on day 3, so it wasn't really 'a long damn time'. It was one night phase +24 hours.

i didn't say at least

You also didn't say 'exactly one'. I don't know how parity cop works, I just assumed it reported "Yes there is a scum between x and y" because the description your implying is what I understand as colour blind cop.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:22 pm

VOTE: Katsuki

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:10 pm

By the way, what does a hider role supposedly do?

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:16 pm

Thank you. Just curious as I'd never heard of the role before.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:05 pm

Oho! Does it end the day phase if you do so?

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:35 pm

UNVOTE: Katsuki
I smell a rat.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:42 pm

Hopefully this is an unnecessary precaution. However I consider the existence of a card that one-ups Shadowehs solo lynch power as very...unexpected.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:57 pm

Seeing as you've partly claimed, did you have any other cards that you have used?

I'm concerned because both you and Shadoweh have effectively claimed solo lynch power and I don't see town having that much control. It can't have escaped your attention that we are 99% lynching Katsuki today. What made you announce now and in this way?

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:06 am

Wait for Ank's claim first.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:08 am

Ank said he had a role-related reason to think Rylai was scum. Since we now have a (partial?) claim from Rylai, I want to see what Ank has to say before we end the phase.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:36 am

Please also do not end the phase before whatever Pie was apparently waiting for has been resolved. I'm going to bed.

Scum reads are still Katsuki -> Ank -> Rylai.

I view Katsuki's self vote as pretty much the cherry on top of the spiral poop that defines his game. Just sub out. You've wasted enough of our time already.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:06 am

Hmm.
why you didn't bomb Dan n2 Katsuki or Ank n3
Do you know why did Giadens name appear in blue the same time everyone else appeared red etc etc

Well probably it's nothing but Dan implied knowledge about the colors.

Cut: ok Shadoweh back in my super town slot.
Night chat seems great imo

More when not phone

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:54 am

Pie: who do you think is scum then?

I don't buy "scum would be more careful" because town would also be more careful. Katsuki's play is entirely consistent with scum trolling around and getting caught between lies, and getting angry at the players who take what he says as it stands, not allowing him to trololol away from it. Basically everything out of his face hole is a lie.

I'm pretty weirded out that you apparently did nothing n3 after a double scum flip to base your action off of.
Really bad. You had basically what amounted to a scum guilty on Katsuki. Why didn't it occur to you to use it?

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:58 am

At the very least it would have confirmed or destroyed Katsuki's role claim.

Holy shit. Now I have to ISO you, Pie. I can't ignore this terrible, terrible play.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:09 pm

It "didn't occur to you" to try to get some information about the scummiest player in the game? On the night they claim to have been untargetable and you now have "a strong town gut read"? Pie come on dude. You had an ability that would have, should have, MUST have been used on Katsuki as both town or scum and you claim you did nothing?

I don't beleive it.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:12 pm

I mean it was right here in the thread! Kats had just claimed for Ooba and Ooba had flipped scum! Here was twenty pages of people trying to decide if Kats or Ooba was scum and you just went "gee I guess I'll do nothing after seeing this" despite having nothing else to do except check/bomb Kats. I don't beleive it.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:21 pm

I'm saying that you "forgot" to use your ability doesn't add up because you should have used it on somebody, full stop. Failing to use it was sub optimal. Failing to use it when you had a targe screaming out to be used on is worse than bad. It's criminal.
And now you town read Katsuki? :/ it has scum written all over it.
Gonna have to put Pie in my scum list until I get a chance to ISO them.

I play mafia with SB offsite. He posts irregularly and he seems to have vanished/got busy day 3, probably why he replaces out.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:24 pm

Ebwodp and Shadoweh plays with SB/Sky off site. More games than me.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:16 pm

I think global chat would be great. If it's not GG after a Katsuki flip, having a head start on the upcoming day phase (or at least help us hammer out some night actions) is advantageous.

I guess it's also worth checking if any of our scum picks (Kats/Ank/Rylai and......Pie..) have any spellcards left, since they claim they have 0/0/1/0 respectively.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:34 pm

Also I guess if Something Actually Happened for GuyInFreezer when the 20th ticked on over, he may want to talk about it at night. I'll leave that up to GiF to discuss though.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:44 pm

My preference is the night chat card also. There's probably more of a net gain than a once-off chance that might yield something, but probably nothing.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:49 pm

I have yet to ISO Pie, and I will not really get a chance to do this until US Sunday.

Maybe I'm just being sensitive - the administrator of the website where I 'live' passed away this morning - but I'm particularly frustrated by Pie saying he didn't use his ability last night.

What do you (FF/Muffin) think?
To me it seems particularly coincidental, too coincidental, that Pie claimed that he decided not to use his ability on Katsuki. Katsuki claimed he was hiding; if Kats is telling the truth (which we will expect if he flips town) that means Pie could not have targeted Katsuki on n3. He would then have to say why he targeted somebody else and explain his action. Why not target Ank? Why not target Rylai? At worst these players would have to use their day spellcard, and at the least, Pie would know if they had any cards in reserve that were unclaimed today. Basically it would have helped force an honest claim from a suspicious person. I feel it's incredible that Pie didn't even consider these options.

Rather I see two night kills and go "Huh" and wonder if the reason Pie didn't use his ability was because he was submitting a factional kill + something else.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:04 pm

That's pretty much what I'm trying to say here. I think "I didn't do anything" is less likely than "I did something but nothing happened and I don't want to give people a reason to believe in town!Katsuki, but I'll totally say I am gut reading him as town so when he flips blue people will think 'well Pie did warn us' or something".

I admit that this line of thought is my own gut reaction and not clearly bounded in reality of the situation. That's why I want to ISO. But at the moment I am not arguing for a lynch of Pie or a salvation of Katsuki. I just wanted to raise this as An Issue To Discuss.