Then show me why.
I've shown you why, on every level, I feel that to not be the case.
By grapes's play.
By the gamestate.
By mechanics.
By setup balance.
Literally every fucking way, I've demonstrated why I feel grapes doesn't make sense as leftovers joining with scum.
You've not once demonstrated why you think grapes does fit.
This has been a consistent trend in our arguments. I raise about ten points. You address maybe three of them. I respond to your addressing, and then I ask for counterpoints showing the opposite.
...I receive silence.
If you want me to work with you, all it takes is actually engaging me.
This?
This aint engaging me.
You can’t prove people are Town via anything short of IC status confirmed by the mod and asking for that as evidence is stupid.
I didn't ask for proof! I didn't ask for some locked, definitive, absolute evidence!
I asked to be SHOWN.
Just fucking shown!
Is it that fucking hard to just fucking show me something?
If so, maybe that says something about what it is you're trying to show!
Because I'm not asking for proof. I'm asking for just being shown. And you're stubbornly refusing to do even that.
Now the fact that he has suddenly “come alive” after it is clear that he’s realistically a lynch candidate and only got saved by your Alliance ability fits very well with scum (in this case Leftover Joiner variety) who got an early Town read and has been cruising along on that just looking for endgame.
Except grapes didn't come alive just today. grapes started coming alive after the kraska lynch. kraska was a consistent scumread of grapes. She flipped town. Instantly, something grapes had been assuming for many day phases to be true was proven to be not true. And instantly after that, there was a change in tune from grapes. Compare
the third page of grapes's iso pre-kraska and post-kraska. The post-kraska starts at
10881. Instantly, we go from basically a one-track mind (lynch kraska) to engaging everyone and talking about everything. grapes went from sitting back to actively talking.
There was no pressure on grapes at the time. The pressure on grapes didn't start until, what, yesterday? Even yesterday it wasn't a large focus; the only two really pushing grapes were Almost50 and Reasonably Rational. And in the case of RR, they adamantly denied that they were pushing grapes. (Well at the least, denied that grapes was someone they were advocating being vigged, which I can give them. But they definitely were pushing grapes.)
Name one other person on D7 who was pushing grapes.
That'd be 3/5 votes for a lynch so much as today, yet alone two days ago when the lynch majority was higher.
Just one.
You get the point. grapes was under no pressure D7. Yet grapes went around and increased his activity anyway. Why? Because grapes randomly thought, "might as well regain some lost towncred"? Because grapes feared nonexistent pressure? Or, how about--radical idea here, I know--grapes just had his major scumread flip town and started to reevaluate off of it?
Gee I wonder.
Grapes starts the day with a farside vote at
6628 after saying that both DGB and farside are good votes in
6613. In that reads post he also puts Shadow as a secondary scum read with Kraska and RR.
6792 again shows soft suspicion of Shadow (asking his favorite kind of rope). And then we get a soft “Skybird might be scum” at
6963.
Are you trying to prove grapes is town?
Because, um.
Yeah.
That...is pretty much what you're doing with those points.
You're asking me to believe that grapes, freshly joining the scumteam, valued the life of a traitor, and proceeded to soft-bus basically the rest of the scumteam. After having already hard-pushed SirCakez on Day One.
Your whole idea of grapes coasting on the towncred from day one falls apart based on that alone. If grapes truly were coasting on the D1 towncred, then the soft-bussing becomes absolutely unnecessary and actually hinders grapes.
You're not making sense here at all with your argument. It's contradictory at a fundamental basis.
Grapes is acting contrary to his stated reads (moving from a dominant wagon on one of his top scum reads and ignoring his other top scum read that was the next most viable wagon) and simply joining a vanity wagon on Town.
You're asking me to buy that grapes didn't think kraska was as scum as DGB?
Sorry, no.
kraska had been one of grapes's scumreads since Day One. That scumread never went away. Grapes voted kraska basically every single day phase. Almost without exception. And I do mean almost every day phase. You know WHY grapes voted kraska almost every day phase? Which is simpler to you: grapes as leftovers-turned-scum decided to pursue a vanity vote for the whole game while soft-bussing his entire scumteam...
...OR, get this. grapes as town had kraska as a larger scumread than the scum?
The latter is far easier for me to digest. Because I absolutely don't see grapes's attempts at lynching kraska being vanity, either. Grapes was pushing kraska hard at many points in the game. Literally every day phase, I can point to places where grapes pushes for a kraska lynch. That's not grapes wasting for the whole game. That's grapes trying to get a lynch the whole game. And was a kraska lynch even worth it? Not really, no.
In post 7812, Varsoon wrote:Farside22 (8): Titus, SnarkySnowman, MagnaofIllusion, TheWayItEnds, DrippingGoofball, Skybird, Yume, Xkfyu
DrippingGoofball (6): Shiro, Thefuzzylogic99, Not Chara, McMenno, Creature, Farside22
Kraskaesque (3): mastin2, grapes, Shadow_Step
Three flipped scum fueling Farside and another scum on kraska with grapes.
And who's grapes's scumbuddy, MoI?
Shiro? On the DGB wagon. Fuzzy? On the DGB wagon. Almost50? Not on those wagons. RR? Not on those wagons.
If you think grapes is scum with a scumbuddy, either you posit that the scumbuddy was voting DGB in a bus, or you posit that the scum is...Almost50 or Reasonably Rational.
In which case...you lynch RR.
First mention at all of DGB after the initial “Hey, they are a great vote” is
8319 basically downplaying interaction reading since DGB is a traitor.
...So?
I took the exact fucking same stance.
Like, you'd have better luck arguing that grapes was mirroring my stances as scum deliberately to hide.
Because I said the exact same things.
DGB is a traitor, interactions likely useless. DGB is a good lynch, but I'd prefer to lynch elsewhere. Fuck, as you yourself acknowledge, I went after kraska. You're painting these things as only being indicative of scum, when I know for a fact, having fucking DONE them IN THIS GAME at the EXACT TIME YOU ARE ACCUSING GRAPES that there was in fact a very town reason to have taken that stance: I was under the impression that the scum didn't know DGB was for sure a traitor (even though there was no reason to believe otherwise). I was under the impression that if DGB was in fact a traitor she didn't know her scumteam. (Because she wouldn't have outed herself to KC otherwise.) In other words, DGB interactions would be...useless. grapes taking this stance is nothing condemning in the least.
Then at
8490 grapes hops on the DGB wagon with narry a comment why.
You're missing something important which happened:
Yume was killed, and votes were reset.
That SnarkySnowman wagon?
Vanished.
The DGB wagon?
Didn't.
So grapes wasn't switching wagons.
grapes was casting an initial vote on a wagon.
Timeline is important. And it was literally his second post (the first being an acknowledgment of the event) after this had happened.
So it's a matter of luck of the draw in timing, really. Had grapes been online earlier, the vote would have been cast earlier. As a result, grapes's positioning would have been earlier.
Opens with a farside vote at
9138.
Yes, because grapes was specifically asked to vote farside by Reasonably Rational. That's an important detail you're forgetting. The vote grapes was casting? It wasn't valid. It was a proof of his inability to vote. You remember that whole fucking thing about that being the day of not being able to vote; you said it yourself. Grapes's
actual
first vote that day phase?
9975, a vote for TheWayItEnds.
No seriously go check the fucking votecounts if you don't believe me. The
9138 vote for farside didn't count because grapes had no alliance. Grapes did not cast a vote after that until 9975, which was on TWIE.
So TWIE is the leading wagon but grapes isn’t voting one of his top suspects at this stage.
Yeah, but grapes wasn't voting
anyone
at that stage. Not even his favorite wagon, kraska.
TWIE gets lynched this day and grapes ends up on the kraska vanity wagon at Vote Count 5.06.
So I ask you this:
TWIE was the given lynch for the day.
This is a fact.
grapes was voting TWIE.
grapes hopped OFF of TWIE, the given lynch.
grapes didn't go to a viable counterwagon. grapes went to a vanity wagon.
What the fuck do you see there that is scum-motivated?
Because I'll tell you what grapes as scum would do: not unvote TWIE. Stay on the wagon for the towncred it'd offer. TWIE was getting lynched. That wagon didn't need grapes to go through. So grapes being on the wagon makes grapes as scum look good. grapes hopping off the wagon does nothing but make grapes look bad--the polar opposite of cruising, as you are presenting the grapes narrative as being.
Sure, scumhunting 101 tells you "oh if someone hops off the wagon of scum it must be a scumbuddy trying to save the scum!".
But you're not a fucking amateur.
You should know better than to buy into that bullshit.
grapes hopping off the lynch of TWIE has no scum motive: TWIE was an inevitable lynch. Staying on the lynch gave town credit. Hopping off would draw attention to grapes once TWIE flipped scum.
grapes hopping off the lynch of TWIE has town motive: grapes, not knowing who the scum are, wouldn't know TWIE was for sure scum.
Your narrative just simply doesn't fit the facts.
And the rest of your case is basically gibberish. Was there a point to it? Because all I saw was words describing grapes's action, where grapes renewed the Shadow_step suspicion. And cast a vote on Shadow_step, when before grapes was...not voting. That, again, is an important distinction to make: huge fucking difference between voting and switching, and not voting and casting an initial vote. And for someone so fond of VCA, you seem to discard the fact that Shadow_step? Contrary to your claims, not a safe wagon.
In post 11244, Varsoon wrote:Creature (LYNCH!):
Shiro, Almost50, Shadow_Step, mastin2, Reasonably Rational, MagnaofIllusion
Shadow_Step (4):
Farside22, Creature, Thefuzzylogic99,
grapes
Not Voting (1):
randomidget
With 11 Alive, it takes 6 to Lynch.
Grapes's vote?
Was the FOURTH of SIX NEEDED.
grapes put Shadow_step at L-2.
Lynch, minus two votes.
That's not a safe vote.
No matter how you fucking slice it. Especially if, say, randomidget cast an L-1 vote on Shadow_step, and/or you did.
Your narrative just doesn't hold up.
...But having said that.
Thank you for at least giving me this much.
I do expect a response to all of this though. You've given your reasons. I'm giving why I don't feel those reasons are valid. You have only yourself to blame if you don't give me more.