Micro 102: Mainstream Mini-Mafia [END, CULT WIN]

[Thor665]

Hey all - 16 pages in a Micro sounds boring.
Who should I be sheeping?

[Thor665]

Hi Orc - so I guess I shouldn't sheep you since you don't have a case worth mentioning.
Do you think I should sheep Majiffy? He'll tell me to sheep him.

[Thor665]

Dunno, haven't read anything.
Is he scum?
Let's call him scum.

[Thor665]

I always like the idea of Jacob being lynched, his posts are weaksauce. I'll vote him right now...

Vote: Human Destroyer

The one post of Four Trouble I read sounded scummy and wussy though - why should we not be lynching that thing too?

@Game - why aren't more people voting Human Destroyer, he's claiming scum on Page 17, which is usually a good thing to lynch someone over.

[Thor665]

So no comment on Four Trouble?
Do you dodge questions as town, or only when you're scum like this game?

And, no, the reason you're scum has nothing to do with me unless I'm really too dumb to see it (and that might be the case, people call me dumb all the time). You should probably explain how it applies.

[Thor665]

I keep reading those posts for info about Four Trouble.
I'm sure it will spring out at me sooner or later.
I'll get back to you...

@Majiffy - so what's your case on Human Destroyer?

[Thor665]

Let's look inside the box.
Mollie should sheep me.

[Thor665]

@Majiffy - you are, but I want her to sheep my case, not yours.

@Mollie - You did not address the question of sheeping. You should try again.

@Human - you haven't even asked for my logic, even though I claimed to have some. Your attempt to downplay me while not addressing me and also just vague batting at me as scummy continues to prove that you're scummy.

Don't make me have to claim Daycop - I'll do it.

[Thor665]

@Human - I see little reason to try to convince you that you're scummy, but anyone looking at a vote count and then looking at how you answered me on Page 17 should spot the scum claim.

@Voided - good move.

@Mollie - stop being terrible, pl0x, this isn't a Newbie. You still didn't address the suggestion - you should do so now and stop dodging.

@Chk -

[Thor665]

Should also note that Voided is sheeping the slot he was just scumreading

Just a thought

Well, duh, he's buddying me hard right now.

But all that really proves is we're almost assuredly not scum together.
Which is the opposite of the conclusion you mumbled into.
Which concerns me.

[Thor665]

But all that really proves is we're almost assuredly not scum together.

This is WIFOM. I would think you'd know this.

That is not wifom - I thought you would know that.
But feel free to tell me about the scum that would bus and then buddy their partner Day 1 - it's super normal I suspect and happens at least one in a hundred games for a 1% occurance rate and you've seen it before. Link it and I'll even explicitly explain the scumtell.

Also, I've given a hint to the scumtell already, I know you're not actually reading me but you're supposed to fake that you are. Here's a second hint - order of suspicion to order of importance in being mentioned is gakked up!

how am I "dodging" when you never asked a question.

Okay, i can wear a dunce hat for you if you want to be pendantic and scummy for some reason.

@Mollie - I have a QUESTION for you, and would like it ANSWERED. The QUESTION is this - what is your current read on Human Destroyer (hopefully expressed in 2 sentences or less)?

I hope you can answer this question, which is a proven question because it has a question mark behind it.
I understand you need things to be like this, but that's okay - they are working on medication for your problem.

[Thor665]

VOTE: thor

eta: he is looking pretty good to me hence why I am going to sheep him!

Interesting - what changed?

[Thor665]

your deflection

Which deflection? I do it so much you need to zone me in.

Yeah I lost my train of thought with that post

It probably has something to do with my vote remaining on Thor while not expanding on his scumminess and instead looking at other lynches

Correct?

Ding-ding-ding!
What does he win?
He wins a lynching, Bob.
All righty then!

[Thor665]

It does when your top scumspect asks you who he should help lynch and you embark on a conversation with him not involving him.

[Thor665]

So instead your logic was you were going to honestly discuss your second top lynch option with your first?
Is that the story we're going with?

[Thor665]

@ Thor I thought possibly that Melmond was scum, but I am getting more of a towny read from HD, so what am I missing?

Since I already described my case on him...I'll guess you're missing in reading comprehension?
What do you think of my case on him?

Yes, I'm absolutely fine with doing that.

If people don't support the lynch of my top scumread, it makes sense to recruit them to lynch my second/third scumreads, does it not?

And by 'people' you mean 'top scumspect'?

Siv had (almost) no content and bandwagoned like nuts

Can you show me an example of his scummy bandwagoning that he did like nuts?

[Thor665]

Can you show me an example of his scummy bandwagoning that he did like nuts?

Especially since I just looked.
He voted three people in three days - and those were the first three days of the games.
One of the votes was himself.
Sooooo, bandwagony.
Looking forward to this one being explained to me.

[Thor665]

@Rach - why do you think Human is townish?
Also - justify your current vote pl0x.

#430 is a good start

but #437 was funnier

and then of course there was this post that I am responding to.

red flags everywhere

Guess you got me dead to rights.

Describe what it is I'm dodging again for the slow kids in class?

[Thor665]

These.

Explain the scum maneuvering behind either vote, or both?
Because this looks weak as hell.

you claimed that I dodged a question that you never asked. that is scumtell #1

you then dismiss what my response was to your accusation with a lack of response to what I actually said. scumtell #2

you don't have it in you to be mean

1. People agreed there was an implicit question there, if I am scummy so are at least two other players for this. Are they?
2. Your response was a dodge - you should be well aware of how I react to those when I'm town.

Remind me again how bad of a scum player you think I am? <-- this is a question I want answered.

@Majiffy - why do you think Mollie is town?

[Thor665]

The only town game I've seen her in was yours, where she flipped her questionable composure as town.
You see that as normally not indicative as much?

Also, she's calling me scum for saying she dodged a question, and then is suggesting I dodged...'something' and acting like she's brilliant with that attack. When all past interactions she had with me should be that I'm a good (and sexy bearded) scumhunter, and with that as a concept she thinks these Playschool scum tells are viable somehow...?

She looks terrible.

Remind me of the awesome earlier interactions that I'm sure I'll read any day now?

[Thor665]

Hurm...

She's "played" with me twice now, how much meta does she really need? Also, really, a derp side slap is her alternate method of choice?
Your reasons for getting a town read look weak to me, and it's not even enough buddying for me to rule you two out as a pair.

Are you susceptible to buddying to give town reads?
I know I am, are you?
Because this looks weak, whassup Majiffylube?

[Thor665]

WOuld you expect the sort of derp case she's coming at me with from a town Mollie?

[Thor665]

I'd accept null as the answer there, which is good enough.
I know she does bad cases as scum, I was curious if she did as town.

[Thor665]

well if my case is so bad that even a dummy can understand it then will have trouble pointing out how it is so. do you know what a bad case looks like? yours on hd. as in you don't have one and when you have been questioned about it you are saying it should be obvious.

You have noticed that I did explain it explicitly at this stage, right?
The rest of your posting is too terrible to bother with.

Why do you think Human is town?

[Thor665]

and no I have not noticed where you have given adequate answers to my questions/assertions and that is why I keep pestering you about them.

No...you keep calling them *scumtells* because i "haven't".
And then i say "but I have, and you're dumb"
And then you go "baaaaaw" and suggest somehow I'm being mean for finding your posting terirble and drop hints that you also find *that* scummy.
Instead of maybe, y'know, isoing me?
Or, y'know, crazy thought, demanding I provide a post number to prove I've done what I've said I've done.

But you don't want to do that. You want to suggest I look scummy while not caring about finding answers.
Amirite?

the loaded question thing is a huge scumtell as you should know since you subbed in for me in a game where scum were dropping them left and right in lieu of actual dialogue.

1. Even if scum were, did I ever call that a scumtell from them?
2. My question wasn't loaded.

I am not sure if hd is town or not. he is not the one I am trying to get a read off of at the mo.

So it's page 17+ and you don't have any read on him (or my slot, apparently)?
What reads do you have?

Remind me again how bad of a scum player you think I am

? <-- this is a question I want answered.

^ loaded question

there is a presumption in it.

Oh gawdz.
Here's a clue - did you ever call me a bad scum player? Ever? Anywhere?
Here's my question spelled out for the slow in class, and is what the above question is really asking;

"Mollie, you appear to think that, when I'm scum, I would play really badly. Is this true, and if so, why do you have this idea in your head? If it is not true, then why are you suggesting the things I'm doing are scummy when the only way you're suggesting them in being scummy is if you think I am rather lackwitted scum unable to answer an accusation - which, as I believe from your experience with me, you would have no basis to believe."

You answered by calling my question scummily loaded and kind of weak backing off from opinion of my play skills and also not addressing how weak the accusations you're soft slapping me with are.

I like the way I phrased the question.

[Thor665]

Hey, Mollie, I just got some Deja vu' here.

i just asked you to explain how a scumtell works.
Try to do it this time.

[Thor665]

P-Edit: Am I the only one that finds it amusing that everyone automatically assumes Thor is town?

That seems like good play from everyone, personally.
Wait till Day 3 though, if I'm alive the scum case on me will be 'Thor is alive' and I'll be called scummy if I ask for any further case evidence.

Thor, I'll also answer your question with another question: Where's his town motivation for wagoning like he did?

Reactions and pushing a lynch?
Last I checked, town had a lot of benefits in pushing wagons, especially early wagons.

[Thor665]

what I am pointing out as scumtells are classic objective tells this is like what you learn in mafia 101.

But then you're supposed to take Mafia 201.
Oh, sorry, I thought we were using silly analogies to justify things.
You still haven't actually explained how any of it is scummy except that it's 'objective' apparently. Which is good to know that you can codify it so well, but still seems to not be an answer.

why would I need to iso you? but I will bite. point where you did answer them.

Well, if you ISOed me (or read me the first time around) you would find posts like this one:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4632537
Where I explicitly explain the scumtell you say it's scummy that I haven't explained, and did so before you even asked about it.
Y'know, stuff like that.

I am interested in finding answers that is why I am persisting. I am sorry if this is frustrating to you but I need to get a read on you and this is how I do it. when you start to sound like the town thor that I am familiar with I will let you know.

That's cool, you sound like scum Mollie right now, so carry on.

hd subbed in right before you. are you being serious with this line of thought.

Oh, snap, my bad, i didn't realize a replace in swept a slot clean. That must be Mafia 101 again.
You also dodged answering about the rest of your reads.
If you...y;know, have any that is.
You're allowed to say you don't. It's actually less scummy *and* less anti-town than dodging the question.

2) I don't think you are playing badly now if you are scum. are you saying that you are more likely to drop classic objective scumtells when you are town? if so I can adjust.

Explain how the scumtells are scummy again and I'll let you know.

Okay, so Mollie is prob scum.
Human is prob scum.
Voided is probably scum with Human moreso than Mollie if he is scum. If Mollie is scum then Voided is probably town.
Majjify can be town for today.
Everyone else is a lurksack that I hate.

Thought - scum is apparently cult in this game.
Do we think we actually have any relational tells at all today?
I would tend to expect some sort of limited recruitment capability for possible win Day 3.
If we have mafia too then cult is probably only one derp with no kills and one recruitment
If no Mafia then either the cult can't kill or would have limited recruitment.

Has anyone theorized yet?

[Thor665]

FT was a bad wagon to begin with; maybe it's something I'm missing, but FT was never particularly scummy, plus no one voting him (Mollie and Siv) could provide any sort of case whatsoever. If he can't even bother to come up with a case, why push the lynch? Maybe it's just me, but a vote from a lurker/no-content poster like that really wouldn't scare me. The orc vote I could see possibly following this though, so I'll give you that.

So I've justified 50% of them as pro townish.
You have justified 0% as pro scum.

Could you remind me what your case on him was again?

[Thor665]

I feel like I just watched an explosion of silly happen.

Would anyone like to at least pretend they're town for a few pages? It would help me.

[Thor665]

@Mollie - your reads, what are they?

[Thor665]

I think voided looks super scummy and he is laying it on a bit thick. I think jacob looks terrible like wtf. not something I would expect from someone who has been playing since 2010. I thought majiffy looked town but then he highlights what he thinks is a scum slip but when I say I am town he is like "I know". hd looks okay. his going after you looks sincere. orc, ft and rach have all done slow fades. with everything going on I want to hear from them. I thought rach looked followy earlier with her auto sheeping of majiffy. she isn't getting her hands dirty. I did not like orc's and majiffy's earlier exchanges and they make me think they are an unlikely team. why are you interested in my reads thor? you think I am scum and are going to push for my lynch and you will probably get it. I hope someone will at least

consider

that you are scummy as Smurf with my flip though.

Okay...so what I get is;

Thor - scum (even though earlier not)
Human - town (even though earlier not)
Voided - scum
Majiffy -

null

Town
Orc - Lurker
FourTrouble - Lurker
RachMarie - Lurker
Jacob - not a lurker but so forgettable he's not worth mentioning.

Is that correct?
Dear gawd, why are you so excited about me (though you've apparently solved that mystery now) when you have no reads on anyone at all?

[Thor665]

I mean, prior to my replace in, Mollie apparently had a read on Majiffy and Voided, and was voting a null read.

[Thor665]

Feel free to actually start addressing stuff that's happening in any way at all.
There's a reason you look like scum.

[Thor665]

What I see going on is you asking mollie for her reads and her giving them.

(Mollie you ARE female right)

I'll admit her voting pattern has been odd, and her vote changes are often unexplained.

What I see is you giving opinions on only one thing that's going on.
Making those opinions vague, and attacking both sides at the same time.
You also ask a question that has no bearing on anything unless you're one of those players who tells me that they 'read' men and women different and need to know the gender to be accurate.

[Thor665]

Thor honest question, did you read the game or have you based your entire list of reads on everything after you replaced in?

^this one.

I've already answered that question. I did so a couple times right near the beginning, so either call me a liar or accept the answer.

And, sad but true, Jacob is actually more involved in the game than you. And he's being terrible.
Go figure.

[Thor665]

1. SO you're calling that a scumtell? A town tell? A null tell? Oh, right, you're just announcing something that is clear to everyone while not applying your own opinion. Making your comment as useful as me saying - Human Destroyer posted Post #620 in this thread.

Helpful!

I would love to see you give opinions on at least one thing. Embrace the character flaw.

I agree that you're asking Mollie a gender question that is meaningless.

What do you think I missed in those first 16 pages that is worth knowing?

[Thor665]

You had my slot down as null prior to my replace in. So...
Correct on Jacob.
You offered babble talk about Majiffy - I interpreted it as null since you called him town and then said 'but'

You challenged me in that Audio game when I was town and you were scum - why would you cozy up this time?
Also, if I'm scum what point is there for scumVoided to cozy up to me?

Your scumtells are apparently that I feared your mighty questions and had to flee before you - there's a reason everyone is ignoring your case. It is silly.
My case on you is more one of your babble talk than anything else - to be frank I don't think I've even tried to put into words why I think you're scummy yet.

Should I be asking you why this bothers you so much now?

ebwop: I've already given a read on Voided. I am currently unsure of Jacob but lean townish because everyone is attacking him to some degree.

[Thor665]

You had my slot down as null prior to my replace in. So...

I can't remember really having an opinion on siev but by all means I think you should continue to make Smurf up.

I know you didn't have an opinion on him - that's why I said your opinion was null.
So...what are you accusing me of here?
As far as I can tell you're complaining that I was accurate when I said that you had no read.

it is called updating your scum meta I am sure this is not a foreign concept as much as you are making it out to be.

If you update your scum meta then why is your town meta identical to what your scum meta was last game I played with you?

yet you have spent the better part of your day engaging with me.

You're right, there never was or is the whole Human thing that I was doing that actually got your underwear in a twist in the first place, and it's certainly not still going on - I must have imagined that.

ebwop: I've already given a read on Voided. I am currently unsure of Jacob but lean townish because everyone is attacking him to some degree.

remind me again. especially in lieu of recent dialogue.

Sure.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4634198
It was in the ancient time of 'this morning'

Now that I've repeated things, could you explain what I've done that's scummy again? Specifically I'm curious about my motivation to do the scummy stuff as you see it.
I don't actually think this is making oyu repeat yourself, but I figure I better cover my bases in case you try the same dodge again.
Also - for someone with so few reads, why haven't you focused on anyone besides me prior to this?

[Thor665]

3. Majiffy (1) - orcinus_theoriginal
7. JacobSavage (1) - Human Destroyer

I feel like Orc and Human are failing at life.
I'm not sure why - I'm sure it will come to me.

@Rach - you say I take a while to get a read on.
You haven't asked me gak.
You're still voting me.
Whassup?

[Thor665]

As you pointed out earlier, the slot does not change because of a replacement, so I am trying to determine if I was mistaken about your predecessor (I definitely can make mistakes), or if you pulled a scum slot this time.

Walk me through what steps you're doing to accomplish this feat - I'm clearly not noticing the work.

not Human Destroyer yet, he has some really towny posts, not gonna vote him as things are atm.

Like what towny posts?

[Thor665]

Thor, what's Majiffy's scumplay like?

I don't believe myself able to quantify it from his town play other than 'scummy'.

[Thor665]

Thor why did you ignore 653?

Because it was a stupid question since I have a vote in play.

Thor stop trying to convince me to sheep you, Mollie's the only case I'd even care to sheep, and even then I find her scumminess weak; I prefer my vote where it is.

Oh, yeah, that totally awesome wagon where you're the only guy voting it and you're not even trying to get other people to sheep you.
That is super pro town, and we should all play like that, I bet we would get a lynch easily.

Well one thing that sticks out in my mind Thor is you are not all bent to get me lynched? Which since in every game you have wanted to do I find that odd. You even tried to get me lynched in a game where I was already dead lol. So what is different now?

You are planning to answer my question eventually, right?
The 'wtf' face is my answer to your question - for the record.

[Thor665]

Vote: Human Destroyer

Stalled wagons on Day 1 mean something.

Rach should still answer my question - she has been beyond useless. Which is saying something in this current mix.

[Thor665]

Yeah, because the Orc=town flip means *so* much to my alignment, right

1. A read you sat on like a lump on a log all day yesterday while doing nothing to affect the game as we rushed to deadline.

2. Your logic that I even would as town is pretty flawed to begin with.

[Thor665]

Unless the Cult also has killing power.

Considering the size of the setup (9) if there is Mafia *and* Cult then Cult probably has limited recruitment power (1 or 2 shots tops) *and* Mafia is small (2 I suppose). Or maybe Cult has limited recruitment and limited kill capability and there is no mafia.

If there is 2+ Mafia and a Cult that can recruit ad infinitum then there better be some of the most amazing powers running rampant through this town or I'll be kvetching at Chk later.

Why did you avoid voting Human yesterday?

[Thor665]

so thor do you think hd is cult or scum? or are you going with that there might only be 1 nontown faction?

Let's flip him and find out, until then all my conversations will keep incluind 'if' 'and' 'or' and 'but' when describing the setup. I could offer you a comprehensive list of thoughts off every theory setup in my head. but I don't see a value.

Here's the short and sweet rundown though since apparently this is still a Newbie;

If there are multiple scum factions he is more likely to be from the larger one.
If he is scum then other members of the same scum faction are more likely to be off the wagon.
If he is town than scum are more likely to be on the wagon (unless the only scum is cult in which case it sort of depends on how they even work)

[Thor665]

I still can't get over how much heat *I* get for that flowchart

[Thor665]

I don't really get much blowback at all. Just the occasional sheep.

You get so much natural heat I doubt you'd notice a shift of a few centigrade.

[Thor665]

Majiffy - do you have a take on Rach?

[Thor665]

Stalled wagons on Day 1 mean something.

Considering wagons stalled on Mollie and HD, would you put some stock into the possibility of Mollie being scum?

Those are quite different sort of wagons.
I will say if I am right about Human than Mollie is much more likely to be town - if that excites you.

Posts D2 read with a lot of fakeness and not a lot of investment in doing any work or scumhunting herself. So that's troublesome. I can't remember her making much of an impression on me D1.

Hint: Day 1 is Day 2, only longer.

[Thor665]

Do you see its stall as likely scum motivated considering the existence of the Human wagon?

[Thor665]

Secondly, how does it make Mollie more likely to be town?

She was a counter wagon attempt on your wagon.

Thirdly, is the inverse true? (If you're wrong about me [which you are], is Mollie much more likely to be scum?) (And yes, I actually do need that much clarification)

No, the inverse is not true.

[Thor665]

It was kind of a silly question, that's why we ignored it.

You gonna push that Majiffy wagon anywhere - or are you just sidelining?

[Thor665]

By voting you, not explaining the vote, not asking anyone else to vote you, and then mumbling off into some vague side discussion that has nothing to do with you?

Wow, pardon me as I step off the tracks, I don't want to be plowed down by this aggressive speed wagon of pressure.

[Thor665]

Because every time I start reading your posts I fall asleep because they lack any sizzle?

You barely say anything in the above that can't be summed up as 'don't suspect me!'.

Meh.

Why is FT your strongest town read?

[Thor665]

plz explain to me how "sheeping" and "testing things out" equal a strong town read. cos I am confused.

My bad - you sheep null and scum reads then?
Okay - just tell me what your read on him is, and then explain why you're sheeping him. I'm clearly just being dumb.

also you are stacking up questions which you have yet to answer!

who on here is a pr hunter

do you not look at nks

how am I sidelining my vote

I am going to add to this do you have a strong town read on majiffy? what is your read on ft?

1. I don't know/care.
2. I do.
3. By constantly distancing yourself for it and doing nothing with it.
4. No.
5. Lurksack who I would like to have dead or replaced.

[Thor665]

@Human - do you have any reads besides the Rach one?

[Thor665]

Because he's scum? Is that the answer? I think that's the answer.

[Thor665]

Thor P-Edit: Incorrect. I'd expect you to figure out I'm town by now, but it seems that the concept is lost on you.

It really is.
What am I missing?

[Thor665]

So basically I'm not missing much of anything?
No worries then.

[Thor665]

You said you expected me to figure it out by now - so clearly there is something I should have been able to see. All I asked was 'what was that?'

[Thor665]

Unvote: HD
ote: Majiffy

To night.
No planning time.

My answer to Mollie's wall was actually handled by two other posters, but my quick reply is - basicaaly she made up some ideas about what I was thinking, and then called me questionable because they didn't match up with my actions or what I was saying (oddly, both of those match, only her presumptions of my thoughts don't...go figure)

If Majiffy flips town then both FT and Rach need to go.
Please remember that if I'm dead.
I'm betting he flips scum though.

[Thor665]

Vote: Majiffy

[Thor665]

Eh, it might be some sort of tricksy cult/mafia play depending on what powers they do or don't have.
But, yeah, it's pretty likely that FT is town.

[Thor665]

I guess this means Majiffy was the only one with killing power?

Y'think?

Also, Thor's still alive. That's usually a bad sign.

Voided is town, so that leaves cult between Rach, HD, mollie, Thor, or Jacob. If there are 3 cult we have a pretty good shot lynching scum, but we gotta find the cult leader. Ill read through previous days and see what I come up with. My suspicion of Mollie was largely based on my suspicion of majiffy so I need to rethink that for now.

I'm thinking Rach or Jacob.

[Thor665]

Also, if Mollie is cult then the cult is currently probably on the small side.
I also don't think she'll be cult.

[Thor665]

What about him?
I think he would not be a recruit.
I think his play is questionable for a cult leader insomuch as he's antagonizing so many players.
If Majiffy had flipped Mafia or Cult I would have wanted to lynch him, but barring that I get the feeling he's just derp town trucking along and isn't worthy of death.

[Thor665]

I was talking HD per your question.

If I was cult and had no restrictions in recruitment I would have recruited FT in an instant. I think that becomes an issue for massclaim though.

[Thor665]

I do not think we have a two man mafia, a 1 man SK, and a recruiting cult - no.

[Thor665]

If the game's still going after N3, and if I'm dead by then, then I heavily implore people to look into Thor come D4. This could just be /paranoia talking, but IMO it's still a concern that should be addressed sooner rather than later.

What kills do you think we're missing?

So you're backing off your HD-scum read?

I would think that was fairly obvious, yes,

That doesn't really sound balanced for a 9p at all, no. Maybe if this was a mini that'd make sense.

5 scum would not make sense in a mini.

I swear I'm not culted (yet). I'd probably say if I was if that didn't go against the new wincon I'd have if I was recruited.

[Thor665]

You do understand that there won't be any other kills, right?

I already indicated that I thought Mollie was unlikely - why should I join you in voting for her?

Yes, if you ignore the numbers you suggested than theconcept of a 3 threats to own game can exist.

I think neutral is the best one can manage, it seems a deucedly derp thing to say and has no meaning in any form other than me to make that face and shake my head a bit.

[Thor665]

You don't find anything I indicated about her interactions with you near when you replaced in scummy or worth looking at?

I think it's relatively clear she's an unlikely Recruiter, or if she is a recruiter than she is a recruiter who is not at full strength - in either case she's not the optimal lynch today.

[Thor665]

I have most of the recent posts - so my new post is: I hate all you lurksacks.
I know that most of you are scum now, but you're still supposed to fake it.
Also, the town should be, y'know, not faking it.

[Thor665]

Have you even read half the game?

[Thor665]

PoE, Gut, and machismo.

[Thor665]

My intention now, as when I first opined my thoughts, is to discuss the situation with FourTrouble.

Why, who do you think I should vote for right now?

[Thor665]

Most Cult in games where Cult appears have some limitations on their recruitment efforts.
I have never seen mafia (read that - any scum faction with 2+ members) able to be culted since that would functionally wipe out their entire faction because the culted member could just claim against them openly or fake a PR or 'catch' them and lulz his way to victory.
Generally town PRs are a mixed bag - in this particular setup I would tend to lean recruit immune, but I am less sure about betting on that one and would tend to support a mass claim before I really weighed in on that.

I do think we're starting to be bogged down in setup spec and forgetting the scumhunting side of things.

@Voided - you say I can be 'sorted' tomorrow.
There are seven of us alive - it is decently likely that 3 of us are cult right now.
Functionally we are in lylo (we need to lynch cult or cult wins) - so, what could be sorted about me tomorrow in any way at all?

[Thor665]

Why not try to sort that now, then?

[Thor665]

Yeah, but today is the only day Voided will have that sort of clout, as tomorrow any attack from Voided could be hand waved with 'but now you may be cult' which, frankly, people are already doing because of the question mark on the Cop situation as far as recruitment goes. Therefore Voided is going to become a progressively less potent town force and should use whatever town energy he has - which is why I want him to justify his current stance.

[Thor665]

Yeah, but my thought is you should be willing to attack me and get my thoughts out.
Because thoughts today are more viable.

Same with you, I want your thoughts out and explained now - because *right now* you are most likely town.
Anything you say tomorrow can probably not be trusted, therefore today is what matters.

[Thor665]

Regarding Mollie, and more specifically my take on her vs. you:
1.) Do you on some level agree with what I had outlined against Mollie a couple hundred posts back? I'm aware you probably answered this already, but I would like a definitive yes/no.
2.) If yes, if you had to rank it from 1-10 on how well you liked it, what would you give it (i.e. do you like the case itself and the points used, does the case not contradict itself etc.)? Using a similar system, how would you rank your understanding of it (are the points used easy to understand and/or follow, do the points used actually give credence to the read (which is a scum/cult-read))?
3.) What points do you like best and why?
4.) What points do you like least and why?
5.) What points do you not understand and why?
6.) If there are any points that you think I may have missed, what do you think they are?

1. I agree with you that her case push on me was a bad case - I think I called it a bad case by her at the time.
2. I see no value in bothering with this.
3-6. This feels like something a newbie should be asking me in post game. I still don't see the purpose. Are you asking me to give you lessons on how to build a case?

Also regarding Mollie but aren't directly related to that case:
1.) You and I both seem to agree that Mollie may well be in the cult, yes/no?
2.) If yes, can you go a little more in-depth as to why you believe Mollie isn't the recruiter/leader (or presumably both)?
3.) If no, can you point me (and everyone else) to posts or parts that indicate that Mollie should not be considered in the cult?

1. Yes.
2. Sure - I have not been recruited. I think Mollie would have tried for me *and* Majiffy, she's had two shots and I'm not cult. Ergo, she is not cult.

a few more, unrelated to Mollie:
1.) At present you have indicated that you would prefer to lynch one of Jacobsavage and rachMarie. This is still true?
2.) If both of them were currently at L-1 (disregarding who is on the wagons) and a figurative gun was held at your head, who would you cast the hammer vote on and why?
3.) You originally came into this game with a scumread on Human Destroyer. I am aware that you did articulate somewhat why he at least isn't on your lynch list, but could you please try to restate what has pulled your off his lynch?
4.) If there had to be someone else besides Jacob or Rach that you would want lynched more, who would it be and why?
5.) If I understand correctly, the way to actually win would be to lynch the cult leader (or possibly shoot, in Majiffy's case). Even so, could someone please walk me through why hunting for the followers is not necessarily the best/a viable strat?

1. No, I dramatically changed my mind since I said that a day or so ago while not being given a chance to talk to the person I originally offered the thought to.
2. I'd want to see who was voting who. If I was refused that info through some weird mechanic then I'd probably read both and do some sort of coin flip off some random phrase I decided to glom onto as important or telling from Day 1.
3. His scumminess was more in connection with people - when I realized there was no mafia team then the question became whether his play was indicative of being cult leader. I don't think a cult leader would play as aggressive and offensive as he has - he is perfectly likely cult, but I doubt he is cult leader.
4. A third scumspect? Eh, I'd want a massclaim for that. Meh, let's say HD.
5. Let's break it down.
7 Players - potentially 3 are cult (1 leader plus 2 recruits).
So, worst case we are in 4 town vs. 3 cult lylo today.
We lynch cult recruit.
Tomorrow we are in 3 cult vs. 3 town and Cult wins.
Let me put it this way, if I was a cult recruit, and I knew we had infinite recruits, then I would play scummy as hell and laugh it up as town lynched me because my side would win.
So basically our *only* hope today is to lynch leader, or to pray cult is out of recruiting power or to pray that cult missed a recruit.
I'm praying that cult can't infinite recruit, but with the SK as opposition setup it's not an assurance. After that we can but pray that cult can't recruit FT and that they tried to recruit either FT or Majiffy already - because otherwise we are already on the precipice. Even if we're not on he precepice I'd rather try to aim correctly for what we're really doing and have discussion about it now, or else there is little value to us not being on the precipice.

[Thor665]

Voided, who you think is best lynch for today?

When you get that answer I'll presume you'll then react to me offering up mine and asking for comment from you, right?

[Thor665]

really just trying to make sure that people where getting what I was saying.

Then re-state it in a short sentence for ease of consumption.

I'm asking because I felt like there was something you didn't like/didn't understand about my case, and so I'm asking that to you (and to others) mainly just to double-check myself.

That's different then what your number snarl of silliness is about. Allow me to offer my full reaction to your case on mollie: Yup, you proved she made a bad case...I'm not sure that's indicative of alignment.

(and part of this is to get lurking people (like FT) to start commenting on semi-important stuff. Not that that's succeeding at all.)

Yeah, I know.

Why not me and Majiffy, or you and me?

I think she has more of a crush on Majiffy and I than on you. We've been invited to play games with her on other sites, heck, I've been a specific replacement request for her in the past (for a Majiffy game that she signed up into because - hey, Majiffy)
Does she have a respect/interest of you that I should be made aware of?

Also - even if that holds true, she's still only likely cult leader if she recruited you and maybe whiffed on Majiffy, at which point FourTrouble wouldn't be cult to be calling you town. And I think you and I can both agree that we're not in a cult together, so that part of the question is silly.

Can you explain what exactly made you change your mind, and who you suspect now?

Can you detect sarcasm?

Okay, this makes sense. Though, do you think it's possible HD could be the leader, and this aggression is done for the WIFOM against what you've just explained? (more or less do you think HD could think of such a thing, and execute it)

If I did I wouldn't be clearing him to the level I am. his play has not been pro-town, but I don't think it is pro-cult leader either. He was a solid chance for mafia and remains an okay chance for recruited cult, but neither of those are an issue right now.

Do you think a massclaim would even be prudent right now? (or would've been at all)

It's probably lylo and there are probably no night kills anymore - I think it's the picture perfect time for a massclaim.

[Thor665]

VT.

Jacob is next.

Rach is also weaksauce for claiming twice in about as many posts and wanting to start the popcorn with someone she hasn't even blinked at thus far.
This is further reasoning behind her need for death.

[Thor665]

How does your Bodyguard power work in this setup?

[Thor665]

What if they're targeted by a non killing power?

[Thor665]

And who have your targets been?

[Thor665]

Hurm.

So we have a way to limit SK kills
A way to limit Recruits
A SK/Cult Cop
And a JOAT who has forgotten to use his powers even though some of his powers require him to use them to even get other powers, and whose claim is backing up the cop claim.

The JOAT feels like the wtflolomg addition. Why the hell wouldn't you be fishing like a boss at the very least?

Ugh, also, at this stage, we have so many PRs that I do not believe the PRs to be telling the truth *or* if they are then there is no assurance that PRs are cult immune.

I'm starting to think it's FT/Voided in some situation for the Cult Leader.
I actually lean FT right now - he could have figured Majiffy by not being able to recruit him and then just confirmed pretty much anyone today. Voided's play, if lying, was done in a way to protect FT and not to make Voided look good - which considering my conversation with Voided could be as simple as him going for the Cult win as described. Though if they figured Majiffy via a failed recruit that makes less valid sense. I think my boggle is accepting Voided as town right now, but he either is town or the cop is lying. The two weak protective powers make a lot of sense paired with each other - and neither of them are a Doc, so I'm wondering if maybe the whole cop/doc thing is all a sham and Voided is talking true.

BLAH!

Okay, quick thoughts;

I think Voided is likely provably 'not cult leader' simply because no sane Cult leader would derp up a claim as bad as he just did at this stage of the game.
FT becomes a question mark, lack of a Doc in Voided's role combined with lurk and not reading which does not speak well for a cop who just did a big win for town and arguably really helped his side - I would expect him to be present and excited and pushing, instead we have this.
I think Jacob is off the table - his role meshes really well with the Alarmist role for balance and is a logical weak role, conversely both the JOAT and Cop are strong roles and the only way I think both of those could be town was if they could be recruited *and* Mafia or Cult got some sort of break from them.

I think Rach continues to scream for lynch.
I think HD isn't leader and wouldn't have been culted.
Since at least one of the JOAT/Cop has to be legit I tend to lean towards Voided as still being clear simply because if he was a Cult Leader he could have just gone 'VT' and ridden to the win without risking his recruited cop.
I think Mollie would have recruited me by now.
So...

Let's lynch FT or Rach.
Thoughts?

[Thor665]

Wow, and suddenly he appears.
A-mah-zing.

I have already explained why I think Mollie would have recruited me by now. You can find it in one of the pages you skimmed.
Why do you think Jacob is the cult leader?
Also, why do you think Rach and I are his oi boyz?

[Thor665]

I could see Mollie or HD as cult leader too. But I dunno, I've never really scum-hunted for a cult team before or cult leader, so I'm basically at a loss at how to proceed doing that.

Fascinating considering you have the whole thing mapped out with the one guy calling you cult at the unquestioned forefront (paired with people he's been trying to get lynched or who have been trying to get him lynched...in cult lylo...)

As for my Mollie case, I stated it for the second (third?) time on Page 40, and was asked about it, and explained it at length.
I'll let you go through the difficult task of reading page 40 to find it. Heck, maybe it will help you cult hunt?

[Thor665]

And, for a guy skimming so much, should I be impressed you noted me calling you out as cult within 5 minutes of me doing it, and posting immediately, when you've missed repeated questions to explain your reads?
What changed in your availability tonight?

[Thor665]

you were pushing hd's case for 2 days then why have you suddenly changed your mind on him?

I've literally explained this at length twice already.
I'm pretty sure I even did a simplistic re-hash in the post you just quoted. So...how about you tell me which part confuses you?

Thor - now I read through things more carefully, basically all I see is that you think Mollie would have recruited you because Mollie likes you.. except that isn't really a valid point at all, practically-speaking it's WIFOM.

It's a highly valid point and your silly to suggest otherwise. Now, it's *not* a good point for the rest of town, because they can't be assured that I haven't been recruited. However, it is a *highly* valid point for me and I don't care whether or not you like it, my lynch choices will be based on the awareness that I am not cult and what that means to the game state. To suggest I should do otherwise is some mixture of derp and drang.

What I want to see from you, if you're gonna keep pushing this argument, is something specific that has happened in this game that makes you say Mollie would have recruited you if Mollie was cult.

So...all past interactions with Mollie that would apply to the way she would react o me HAVE to be ignored?
Yeah...no.

Point is, Mollie would have recruited you if she was cult, not cause she likes you, but because of your central position in the direction this game has taken and seems to be taking. And pretty much everyone else would have recruited you for the same reason.

This is pretty silly sounding coming from the claimed cop - why would I be a better recruit than you?
In fact, as you talk about who is or isn't lynchable - I am literally the first (and only) person to suggest you should be it.
But I'm suspect because I'd be so hard to lynch...riiiiight.

The level of his thinking has definitely dropped from when he replaced in (it's not nearly as well thought out as it was earlier). The motivations he's ascribing to the decisions cult makes when recruiting are so reductive and simplistic I find it hard to believe anyone could possibly be convinced he's town at this point.

[Thor665]

okay well I think voided's claim is the weirdest one that is 3 town with potential views. that seems a bit imbalanced?

I wanted to call this one out as its own thing.

Okay, Mollie, here are basically only a handful of situations that exist with this claim;

1, It is true, and Voided is a derp silly role and played it mondo-terrible.
2. It is a lie, Voided is cult mook trying to get lynched because cult will win if he does.
3. Voided is Cult Leader, is investigation immune/recruited the cop and decided to claim a really derptastic role and role actions as opposed to VT in order to get town to lynch his cop recruit so he can win.

In 2 of the 3 situations, Voided is the wrong person to lynch.
In the other one it is a really ballsy and weird gambit double-blind play that is not consistent with Voided's playstyle as scum.
Ergo - Voided is either cult recruit, or legit town and should *not* be lynched.
I agree it is imbalanced and casts doubt on either Voided or Four Trouble and indicates one of them is lying about their role.
Could you weigh in on Four Trouble now?

[Thor665]

I mean, what if Voided had even just come out with 'single shot rolecop' and said he'd targeted FT and got 'cult recruiter'? He could have done this, and done it after a time he'd been 'cleared' by FT and would be in a much stronger position to argue his situation as the one shot rolecop would be way more balanced.

Instead his role is a strange mish-mash claim of fail wherein he even has a role that is lying (nurse) and we're supposed to think that somehow the cop replace part is legit? Town with a infallible cop, who if he dies is replaced? It is blatant that one of them is lying at this stage. Voided's lies don't make sense as cult recruiter and FT's do.

Literally the only question we have is if FT makes more sense as a recruited goon than a recruiter.

[Thor665]

I'd personally like a Rach lynch but I'm willing to hear other thoughts I guess

Want to reply to my rather extensive thoughts?

[Thor665]

And there's another switch in your theories again with no supporting logic.
For someone calling me cult due to poor use of logic I have to say that feels rather scummy to me.
You also failed to address the point that I am arguing about you or Voided = cult other thant o say the town is balanced...and then claim one of the PRs as a theory recruit before deciding he's not for reasons that are unclear but would seem to be 'because he's one of these balanced PRs we have'.
You also failed to address why hyper town Thor is obv. recruit/recruiter because he looks town and the claimed Cop is not recruited, nope, not at all.

[Thor665]

*theory recruit

er

[Thor665]

Why is receiving results in a Town/Scum format suspicious? You guys seemed to believe I was legit Yesterday, why didn't anyone question my results back then?

Because your results made it clear that either he was scum or you were scum and we were not in lylo. Therefore it was a totally safe lynch for information, and his lynch made more sense than yours. It had nothing to do with finding you a shining beacon of pro-town, and even if it did you are even currently arguing about me being cult *because* I was a shining beacon, so why so annoyed that the logic applies to you too?

I'm not cult, but whatever. We ain't gonna win this game with the state of thought in this Town.

How is your work going on finding the recruit/recruiter status of your cult suspects? I would find that more worthwhile to hear than AtE at this stage regardless of your alignment.

[Thor665]

(and Thor doesn't have too many commitments [he's my backup])

It will probably work out fine - I'm thinning down my play commitments during this work period and suspect I won't need to even step in ever in any case

Setup speculation? Do you guys think it was well rounded? I'm seeing how small patches of roles work amongst themselves before I go a bigger route.

I think you have some very interesting role situations here - it's just cult can be deadly in a Micro, and also the main strength of cult is getting to play paranoia (I mean, when my defense is 'sure, I might be recruited...but that's a good reason not to lynch me' and no one blinks at it and instead are discussing my reads you can see the type of potency cult can have on the play meta)

[Thor665]

THOR WHY DID YOU NOT TELL ME YOU HAD SUCH TROLLISH SENSE OF HUMOUR I HAD TO SIT ON MY HANDS WHEN YOU WERE TELLING VOIDED THAT I HAD A CRUSH ON YOU AND SO WOULD RECRUIT YOU BEFORE HIM OMG!!!!

Also I think FT did investigate every night.
Also I am surprised that no one picked up that I didn't protect FT...

Well, some of us did and decided not to say anything...

What made me suspicious of Thor though was the complete change. Instead of going after me like he usually does, he went hard after HD, then suddenly switched.

I will point out that I did the "ignore" of you during a period when I was town.
Frankly, I'm not sure why you got this as a meta tell - the lynch you when you were dead game was a snafu because I read the wrong vote count, and the others were all for various reasons I am sure.
But, I'll admit in general I probably find your play scummy, but I certainly have no predetermined plan I'm aware of to always lynch you.
Though maybe I will now...

eta: thor mentioned on tr that he is working like crazy hours something like 16 hours a day, I am sure he would have been around more if he had the time.

Yeah, work ate me the last few days since I was working 16+ hour days on splits. So I was work/sleep/work for a while there.
I think I pulled my fair share though in building up paranoia over the cop and 'confirming' Jacob after his rather solid little fakeclaim. I was quite happy to be able to come back and find everything sorted out for our win...though I perhaps feel bad for the town.