Micro 488: Forest Fire - Endgame

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

My name is Broderick Drake and some people have described me as a rancid fellow. I am just popping in to inform you that

we are a PGO

- whether or not you choose to believe us is up to you (I cannot think of a reason we would lie about this, though), but you have been warned, so don't target us!

Also, pieguy is probably scum.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Oh my god, our avatar makes my eyes bleed. What have you done to us, Nati?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

via mod error (to both the above)

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I thought this was an open setting...

Yes... I was being open.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Yarrr

Muffin-sama said he thinks pieguy might actually be scum for the awkward reaction on p1

--Muff

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I'll be around starting Monday...Pride is taking up all my time this weekend.

--Muff

Picking up muffin-sama's alt slip

--Muff

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Muffin-sama also wanted to power-lynch the Regfan hydra because he thought it would be funny but I don't think he thinks they're scum.

--Muff

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Actually, Yuriko could be scum. Golden Shower might be town. Gentlemen maybe town.

Vote: Yuriko

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I think sangers is good at saying the names of people in this player list, too. It is a valuable skill to have.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I thought your 37 and 44 were really well-constructed posts.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

would like to know what specifically of Yuriko that you are/were reading as scum at the time of your post

I thought 46 looked off and disagree with your assessment that it would have been town(ish) if the context were different. I thought #55 looked like someone trying to look like they're thinking about things without actually thinking about anything relevant to the game itself.

As for #102, I'm feeling a bit ambivalent about it, actually. Trying to decide whether those last two lines are genuine or not. Want to see her non-setup-related thoughts on the game.

also would love your read on Quilford with reasoning attached please

He hasn't done anything particularly interesting for me yet. Or rather, he hasn't done anything so far I couldn't very easily see coming from either alignment. Even that "I bet Regfan drew scum again" thing (which you seem to think is town~ish) is pretty neutral, tbh, and the questions he's asking/stances he's taking aren't exactly breaking new ground.

I'm not sure if RBD would think to push me the way they've done so far if they were scum, although this is mostly gut. zmuffin has had a lot of trouble in the past reading my town posts as "forced", whereas Nati pegged me immediately in our one scum-town game bc she (correctly) identified my posts as forced; what we're seeing here is Nati pushing me over forced posts. I think this makes slightly more sense from town than scum in that Nati would be more likely to think she's onto something reading my posts as forced, whereas zmuffin would be hesitant to push it - on the other hand if they were scum I would expect zmuffin would be slightly more likely to comment on his partner's supposed read on me either way.

Uh, I don't really know what you're trying to say here but I feel it's _probably_ a good idea to clarify this now: Nati hasn't actually posted on RBD yet! Those posts were all me, so you're not actually seeing Nati do anything yet. Trololol, I guess?

Actually, we talked about you a little bit in pregame, where I brought up your response to my "I think pieguy is scum" line and asked Nati about it and Nati said it looked a little forced and I agreed. That's been pretty much the extent of our conversation about you (and the game so far) since Nati hasn't talked today (busy with some pride thing or something? I dunno what it is and I don't really care!)

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Yuriko might be town for 102.

What did you like about 102?

-Nati?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

That last question mark isn't meant to be there but it fits, I guess.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Also would like you to talk a bit more about your sangers town read since it seems to be based on them "pushing" you/empire and I haven't really felt ffery actually doing any pushing so much as sitting back and watching things unfold (which seems pretty standard for ffery and not really alignment-indicative).

Also don't really see where the (what I'm perceiving as) aggression on GB is coming from, given their stance on you is fairly understandable and I don't think their other reads are as bad as you're saying they are (or, at the very least, they're not much different from my own and you don't seem to have a problem with the reads I've stated). #112 feels like a giant overreaction

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

if it's still relevant, I really feel I should let you know that every time you've read my posts as forced oustide of TH upick 1 I've been town.

Mayhaps. But I think that's a whole two games you're talking about there (that bork game and touhou upick 3 - although I don't think how forced your posts were in those games was why I was scum-reading you) unless I'm forgetting something? What was the point of saying this?

If you're town, I expect I'll (eventually) see it in your posts.

as opposed to scum pushing an agenda

Er... If she is scum, you're probably right that it wasn't scum pushing an agenda so much as a standard attempt at looking town via setup spec so uh, I agree with that, I guess? It likely wasn't agenda-related. I disagree with the notion that scum cannot think about weird things related to a setup, though.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

the ffery town read is entirely about her confidence. this probably sounds really dumb but that's how I always read her and it's always been right, so it works for me. I don't think she'd immediately jump in and push Empire first thing in the game if she was scum here for this reason (it would be a more bold move than what I'm used to from her).

Yeah, I probably should have been more specific, but it's not that I didn't understand what you said the first time, it's that I didn't see whatever you're apparently seeing in terms of "confidence" or "pushes" from ffery.

i.e. Where was she pushing Empire? If you are simply referring to her asking who wrote that post and a follow-up off-hand comment (34), then what confidence are you talking about?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

HMMMmmafdmfa okay maybe reg vs pie is town on town.

Is this based on #131 or #132 or a little bit of both?

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Er... Obviously asking about the pieguy read in particular there, in case that wasn't obvious.

Anyway, left thoughts with Nati. I probably won't be around for the next 20~ish hours.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

"Quick" response:

Do you think that overreacting is a scumtell for Pieguyn in particular? More importantly, what about pieguyn's reaction felt fake?

Actually, I'm just going to pretty much copy paste everything I've written to Nati so far about pieguy since the vast majority of stuff I've written to Nati is about pieguy. (Also, I don't really like the angle you're pushing here, but maybe I'll get to that later)

It's not that "overreacting" is a scum tell (and the fact you're simplifying it to that when it's pretty clear that's not what I was saying is one of the things I don't like about this stance you're taking on me). It's that pieguy's reaction to gentlemen looked like aggression for the sake of aggression. It didn't feel like a natural "hehe, there goes pieguy again, up to the usual stuff" reaction to gentlemen's early stance. gentlemen's reads weren't all that different from the vast majority of the active players at the time, we were four pages into the game and, more importantly, pieguy's take on the whole "posting elsewhere" thing felt way out of proportion for what it was - a fairly standard observation that was less of a "pieguy is definitely scum, look at this solid evidence" thing and more of a "this is interesting and requires a satisfactory explanation if pieguy happens to be town" thing.

There are a few reasons I thought this was bad.

First, I thought pieguy was making a really poor attempt at emulating aggression here rather than taking a genuine stance; it actually looked a bit like the mentality I sometimes have as scum. Sometimes when I'm scum, I'll think about how to react to something in a way I might do so as town (for example, in a really aggressive tone or with a slew of insults or whatever) but I might ignore the larger picture (like whether my reaction was in line with what was actually going on at the time and what I was responding to, etc etc). I think pieguy mostly knows the cues people are looking for and what pieguy was doing was basically an attempt at hitting those cues... except that it made no sense given what pieguy was actually responding to and what was going on in the game at the time.

Second, the reaction was entirely unlike what I'd expect from pieguy as town and far more in line with what I remember of his push on cephrir in serum&steel. When I expressed a scum read on pieguy in touhou upick 3, for example, the reaction was basically "I acknowledge your reasoning and you're right but..." - which is the sort of thing I would have expected from pieguy-town here. Also, since I think ffery brought up Xenosaga, it's also entirely unlike the reaction to me there, which was (at least at the beginning) rather sensible (like, I didn't think it was town, but it at least was coherent in the sense that the reasoning given matched up with the conclusions and there wasn't any real stretching) and more inquisitive than authoritative ("why?" rather than "this!").

And third, it simply made no sense. For example, pieguy was attacking gentlemen's bork read (because bork hadn't done anything that couldn't be faked) while simultaneously pushing the idea that ffery was town for asking a question of empire. gentlemen's reads were not vastly different to, say, my own reads, but pieguy had no issue with my reads, instead focusing entirely on gentlemen's apparently fake reads. Also YOU know exactly why I think pieguy's response to the "posting elsewhere" thing made no sense; pieguy KNOWS that sort of thing doesn't necessarily come from scum, regardless of "context" (which gentlemen couldn't have had any idea about unless they're psychic and I do not believe Regfan is a psychic... but that would actually explain why he was blushing a lot when I met him because I did spend a majority of the time thinking about what I wanted to do to him and it was not PG-rated). Like, I understand why pieguy doesn't like it being used against him, but it's far from scummy and I am having trouble believing he would take the stance he took as town, even if he is somewhat OMGUSy.

Also, while I'm at it, some other things I've written to Nati about pieguy...

pieguy took a really long time to write his responses to gentlemen - like, long enough that he had to have been thinking, scrutinising and revising his responses (even accounting for the length of the walls). This isn't necessarily scummy - maybe he was just doing a lot of thinking or something - but it is something I think scum are more likely to do than town (I think pieguy especially is the type of player who is more likely to write up a heated response than a carefully manufactured one) so this stood out to me.

I've been thinking about pieguy's appeal to me in #127 and, while on the surface I think I could see him making an appeal like that to me as town (because I know pieguy tends to want me to town-read him when he's town), the fact that the reason he appealed to me was because he was worried that I might sheep Regfan didn't sit well with me. If anyone knows anything at all about me, it's that I don't sheep. Ever. Even when I'm sheeping a la xenosaga, I'm still not actually sheeping. Like I literally don't even think I've ever read another person's case and thought, "this person is making good points I agree with and I could follow him onto that." Also Regfan/Empire aren't exactly a big fish in this game, anyway (though I guess pieguy apparently thinks differently so whatevs).

I have thoughts on #132 but first I want to know whether the fact it was almost a direct copy of this was intentional or not.

#168 is the first post by pieguy that I actually thought looked town and is one of the main reasons I'm currently thinking he might be town. Similarly, I am not sure he's capable of writing #230 as scum.

I think, if pieguy is town, he should drop the back-and-forth stuff with GB and focus on something else because the more he writes stuff about it, the more I see it as him using it as a crutch to produce content. I don't think his gentlemen read (ignoring the recent couple posts) is all that great for a number of reasons (least of which is that the vast majority of the gentlemen arguments are about gentlemen's read on pieguy and not about much else they've done) and his reads outside of gentlemen look rather weak from what I've seen.

Some questions for you, nacho:

- Why do you think I should have been town-reading pieguy as of post #119? Or at what point do you think I should have been town-reading him? For the record, I'm still not really town-reading him. Though I think it's a lot less likely he's scum than I previously did.
- Did you actually think my issue with pieguy was as simple as "overreacting"?
- Do you think I'd push pieguy for something as simple as "overreacting" if I were scum?
- Does ffery agree with your read on me?

PS: Just assume all wall posts are Nati

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Also because I'm really bad at scum and I don't wanna ruin RBD's first scum game, Nati is taking over posting duties from whenever she gets back today since I am really

lazy

busy.

Also, Nati is probably a whole lot easier to read than I am, anyway

, which means less work for me so win/win

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

You challenged both of them about statements/stances, which is in keeping with your feeling that town wouldn't *know* either of their alignments.. What Muffin did looked more like taking sides.

You're talking about #119, prior to when the back-and-forth between them actually started, right? Like, when there weren't even sides to actually take on the argument that hadn't yet happened, right?

For the record, I didn't agree with everything gentlemen was writing about pieguy but I did in particular agree with the second point of 130.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I actually have an issue with this. how are you not seeing similarities between those posts and what I did in S&S?

I don't remember you ever doing anything like that in Serum&Steel

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

You're talking about #119, prior to when the back-and-forth between them actually started, right? Like, when there weren't even sides to actually take on the argument that hadn't yet happened, right?

It was fairly obvious that's where the tide of the game was going, unless you don't think you'd be able to pick up on that as scum.

That's not the point. You're saying my post was bad because I didn't weigh in on both sides of the argument but bork's was fine because he weighed in on both sides of the argument.

There was no argument to weigh in on.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I don't remember you ever doing anything like that in Serum&Steel

eh, fair enough. FTR, I was referring to this (directed towards the same person, even!).

Oh. That doesn't actually make me feel any different about those posts since it just tells me you don't know specifically what I'm referring to. If you are town, remind me to talk about this in post-game.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Also, from my perspective, Pie's case bordered on nonsensical.

This and the actual way it happened are the main reasons I took issue with it in this game. I'm not so concerned about the particular target's lynchability. I don't really think there are many "lynchable" players in this game, and Cephrir wasn't exactly the easiest target to choose in Serum&Steel.

Anyway, I'd kinda like for you to talk about what you think of the way their argument has evolved when you get a chance.

Honestly, I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything writes about pieguy's arguments. I think pieguy's arguments are (were) based on either deliberately or accidentally misinterpreting a lot of things. I think the recent flip of pieguy's stance on gentlemen is something he likely would have done regardless of his alignment since there was a fair bit of pressure for him to stop doing what he was doing. I'll probably look at it again when I'm not half-asleep and think about how natural it looked.

Anyway, Nati has my current thoughts on the game. I'm going to sleep and prob won't be around again until *maybe* tomorrow night.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Actually, before I go, are you and nacho actually discussing the game or is it a leaving-thoughts-for-the-other-to-read-later thing?

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I don't think overreaction is a bad way to summarize your thoughts on Pie-scum. You believed his reactions weren't genuine because they seemed to be aggressive without having a reason to be aggressive, with added incentive to do so because of his meta, which means you think that he's scummy because he's overreacting, no?

Also, was this nacho of ffery?

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Can't sleep.

I obviously disagree with the case on GB, but it fits with what I know about town-pie that she'd react the way she did

I think the case on gentlemen was every bit as nonsensical, actually, which is the biggest issue I have with pieguy.

except in that game, your reasoning for scum reading me *was* correct. your reasoning was that I wasn't scum hunting, and it was right - I had not pushed anyone at that point in the game.

in this game, GB was pushing me for strategically lurking. which is incorrect - I wasn't posting bc I was busy.

you're saying you'd expect me to react the same way as TH 3. so why would you expect me to acknowledge I was doing something that I wasn't doing?

I expected you to acknowledge that you were posting on site but that you had reasons for not posting here, and not to immediately push back and suggest it was scummy to think you were avoiding the thread because you were actually busy, even though there was no way to possibly know that prior to you explaining it.

The "context" isn't as important as you're making it out to be. This is ignoring the fact that there's a difference between not posting in other games (which may have lots and lots of pages) and not posting in a game that was fresh out of confirmation stage

I think that it was more likely than not that Pieguyn was approaching the game from a town perspective than a scum one when she had the initial reaction she did to Regfan's post

Why? Ignoring anything else you may think is town about pieguy, walk me through what was town about pieguy's approach to Regfan.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

...... except it is?

No, it's really not. Maybe for some people, but even then, prodding someone about it is still better than not doing that and the fact that you automatically thought someone pointing out you'd posted elsewhere was scummy is what I have a hard time believing.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I don't think overreaction is a bad way to summarize your thoughts on Pie-scum. You believed his reactions weren't genuine because they seemed to be aggressive without having a reason to be aggressive, with added incentive to do so because of his meta, which means you think that he's scummy because he's overreacting, no?

Oh, right. Also, yeah, you could boil it down to that like you could boil pretty much any stance to one or two words. But the way you did it looked off to me because it looked like it was meant as a way of depreciating my stance so as to make it look like there was very little behind it.

Also, I'm trying to wrap my head around pieguy being your strongest town read in this game, even accounting for a difference of opinion on pieguy's entrance to this game. Because even if you did think his attack on Regfan looked town, I'm still not seeing it. Also, I think your stance on me is pretty bad since I don't really know why you think Iwould have taken some different stance and I don't really think the angle you're pushing makes any sense anyway, since a lot of is assuming I should have formed some stance on stuff that happened after the post you seem to have an issue with (like the fact that I apparently should have been more objective in the argument that wasn't even taking place at the time) - even though you now seem to be saying that no, I should have thought his initial reaction to Regfan was town (even though it was null at best, if you look at it sideways with squinty eyes maybe). I'm beginning to think you're using pieguy as a crutch to attack me because (a) you can't figure out a good way to attack me otherwise, and (b) you can't figure out a good way to attack other players.

Anyway, going to try and get some sleep now.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Oh, and just because I wanna be able to point back to this in post-game and brag about my reads.

Calling a Yuriko-Nacho scum team right now.

If that's not the team, this post never happened and no one ever read it.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I don't disagree, but that's still missing the point

If you are scum-reading someone and notice them posting elsewhere (whether in games or not), you can choose to point it out (in which case, you're probably going to not that it doesn't make you feel any better about them) or you can choose to not bring it up (which is just dumb, IMO)

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Who should my strongest townread be?

I would have thought you'd have a stronger read on, say, bork-hydra because I'm nowhere near as familiar with them as you are and I'm pretty sure they're town and they're not even my strongest town read tbh so yeah. I think you're

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

er... Submitted early.

I think you're bullshitting the strength of your pieguy town read.

I would vote you because you haven't done anything particularly town yet and leave it at that.

That would be an even worse angle than your current push, tbh, and I probably would have driven you into the ground if you even tried that.

But yes, your only other real options would be pushing Yuriko (who hasn't really done anything town but you have a very awkward town read on for setup spec which doesn't make a whole lot of sense), Soft-Spoken (for... not posting, I guess?) or bbMolla (even though I don't think you could actually make a case on bbMolla).

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Also, no. No, you wouldn't do that as scum. You would do what you're currently doing, which is find some dumb angle and try to push it.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Like none of those alternatives that you would supposedly do as scum are things you would actually do as scum specifically because they're all so weak that they'd be worse than what you're currently doing, so no. Just no.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Who should my strongest townread be?

I would have thought you'd have a stronger read on, say, bork-hydra because I'm nowhere near as familiar with them as you are and I'm pretty sure they're town and they're not even my strongest town read tbh so yeah. I think you're

I can find scumgames from borkhydra that look pretty similar to this one (Tales of You). I can't find scumgames from pie that look anything like this. Can you?

Describe what "this" is. Because I've been talking to your other head about one such game with which I see similarities.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Also if "this" is the push on Regfan and you think that's similar to something he's done as town before, what game/s are you referring to?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

You're still not saying what you thought looked "really town" about it

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I don't deny that this position is implausible coming from me as scum, but pretending that I don't have any alternatives is kind of ridiculous.

Oh also I think you had alternatives, they were just all shitty from the perspective of you wanting to look like you were thinking about the game in a town way

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

So you think that push seemed genuine because you don't think pieguy-scum would want to get into a tunnel argument?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I don't deny that this position is implausible coming from me as scum, but pretending that I don't have any alternatives is kind of ridiculous.

Oh also I think you had alternatives, they were just all shitty from the perspective of you wanting to look like you were thinking about the game in a town way

except nacho didn't need to look like he's thinking about the game, or even make an appearance. I've been playing with easy going confidence, had hit my stride and have been virtually fizzing with the joy that being town gives me.

If we were scum, the last thing nacho would have wanted to do was mess with that. This would be *my* break out game if we were scum.

We're not scum. We're gamesolving. If you're town, I think you should be able to see that.

Um, I don't think nacho could have got away with not posting in this player list and I don't see the game solving you're apparently doing (though to be fair I don't have much of an issue with your posts - I just don't think you've done anything particularly town-looking and I don't believe for one second that you can honestly call nacho's play here game-solving)

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

So you think that push seemed genuine because you don't think pieguy-scum would want to get into a tunnel argument?

ffery reply. I don't think scum-pieguy is afraid to tunnel. It's the zero to 100, wild-eyed paranoid leap into a 1v1 tunnel that doesn't look like something scum-pieguy would do. her tunnel in S&S didn't have even a whiff of wild-eyed paranoia.

Can you give me a specific example of the wide-eyed paranoia and talk about why you think it was town

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

plsdontbefifteenpagesplsdontbefifteenpagesplsdontbefifteenpagesplsdontbefifte--dammit.

Reading(amd drinking!) now.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Damn I should drink and mafia more.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

idk what muffin sama was smokaloking because I like pie, although I don't like real pie y'know.

He's so genuine it hurts lel.

To be fair I haven't read anything besdies the first 5 pages and the past two. Still sorting through things.

Also Jasmine is kkkkkkkk newb maybe? Someone talk to me, I want company until Tel wakes up tonight.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

ffery where are you, I think muffin said you wanted to talk to me earlier -.-

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Blame the bat thing, not the qt pirate girl!

So, where you at with the game, Molla?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Hi bork! I don't know how I feel about you atm! You're not dictating the flow of the game imo and that's something I always look for you in games with us.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I'm here. kinda zapped out.

was going to ask you if you're caught up and have reads, but I think that's negatory based on 434.

I've read enough and am armed with muffin notes+my own precognitions so yeah. I miss using you as a filter ://

Muffin/Nati do you jokingly sign posts as each other or what, cause I missed something there

-Muffin

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Hi bork! I don't know how I feel about you atm! You're not dictating the flow of the game imo and that's something I always look for you in games with us.

Don't really know what this means or how my presence differs from what you expect. Explain?

-b

Like, idk, when I think of bork in all of our most memorable games, you were taking hold and speaking out and acting as the voice of reason more than inquisitor. I'm not feeling it as much this game

Now that I think about it I may be a bit off here. Yeah.

-person

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

The Fourth Shot: Yes or No. Vote now!

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Qwilford is in that really awkward zone where he doesn't really play by heart and is just sort of solid so I can't read him because emotional tells don't work

PEDIT: -Muffin

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Also I will say Muffin did tell me he was mad I signed him up for a Micro and was gonna make me start doing the leading of this hydra post-Pride weekend so you're stuck with this poor unfortunate soul.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

My strong-town list: goldsaucer, pieguy, gb
My nulltown list: bbmolla, quillford (nacho would put Yuriko here too, I think)

YES: Pieguy, you
EH SURE WHY NOT: Saucer, Yuriko(mostly for newbtells and stuff)
NO: demon regfan hydra thing(<3 empire)?

This will prob tighten up over interactions.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Pie is, like, idk, the silly little Serum & Steel exchange made me chuckle and was so clearly a townpie thing to do('Remember this weird one-off where I did something that's totally different from now? YEAH I GOTCHA YOU SCUM'), you and nacho are you and nacho and nacho is more or less easily readable in lylo while you're being yourself and I'm feeling the casualness and not the slight awkwardness.

bork is showing me up consistently and I feel like reviewing so many games together has given us two a good ebb-flow to it, while Yuriko is only really there for newbtell stuff.

Bastards i'm not sure why, I'd need to read them again but it just was like, I was getting uncomfortably manipulated by their posts.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

those are pretty much the opposite of zmuffin's reads.

Yeah but I'm not muffin.

-zmuffinman

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Regfan is a tricky fucker and, if record shows, he will scumread me forever because he's too analytical.

Don't think I forgot Fire Emblem!!!!

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I think Yuriko doing setup spec is unlikely as a normal tree

(she specifically named Arsonists by name

). Hence the Firefighter/Arsonist thoughts and I still stand by it. I think she's probably scum who is scared of the playerlist and hiding behind setup spec.

Underlined: not a bad point at all and not something I was considering when I made my gutshot at her 55 forever ago

-b

I will grant this is a very solid point. Also, I just realized we will all be here, and alive tomorrow. Oh dear.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Guys, I'm having fun playing mafia again!!!!

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I gotta tell you, being scum in this game would probably literally depress me

Having to deal with confirmed town nacho/regfan/ffery/empire/muffin/tammy etc. talking the entire game while I'm scum (depending on who my buddy would be obv)

like I'd just fucking quit

I'd take solace in the fact they'd lynch the people not in our clique like we do every game first, lol.

I know. and his complete tone deafness to emotional factors in mindset was freaking me out. but I felt like there was more to it than that.

I agree. It's part of why I like this hydra, because muffin is really good at the areas where I'm not and when it's not being a dysfunctional hydra we're more or less unstoppable. I will probably go about fixing that when he's back and we can figure out how to get going.

As to your last sentence, elaborate? He's kinda pissy with being in the game, but anything else?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Ah, okay. I don't really know what say there :/

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

If it's a structured post, it's muffin. If it's short and kinda meandering, it's me.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I see.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

He's

NATIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

</3

Holy shit, I'm actually the worst wtf.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I actually have a lot of trouble believing that of all of my posts, *that's* the one you think I can't fake as scum. I actually think that if I was scum here, that kind of question would be something I'd hone in on quickly (due to how easy to ask it is - plus, asking about town reads on yourself is a relatively easy way to look town in some ppl's eyes). what about it made you think it was a "townpie" thing to do?

Just, genuineness and the way you (Sorry this is gonna be a bit mean) overstated yourself. One of the things I look for for town-you is that you have this habit of pouncing on silly little things that don't make sense in the greater scheme and drag it out over a few posts. I brought up that specific instance mostly cuz it was the last thing I read before skipping to the end or something, lol.

elaborate?

I was talking with regards to the early 'setup spec' stuff and how she just had an aura of cluelessness going on? Obviously the most wishy-washy of the list.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Like 10 pages behind. Reading some time tonight.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Disagreeing about this interaction gives me pause.

I don't believe pieguy's #112 was as town as you and nacho seem to be making it out to be (whatever "paranoia" you're saying was present in pieguy's later posts that made you think town, that post was

at best

null, if you don't have any issues with how little sense it actually makes) and I don't think the part where you're saying the paranoia peaked (which I guess is referring to the reach-out to me) felt particularly town (least of all because it felt entirely unlike how pieguy has approached me in other games, ignoring the fact that pieguy should know I'm unlikely to sheep someone if I didn't arrive at the same conclusion myself).

These things that you're calling town are part of the reason I don't think your pieguy read is genuine. If you'd said, say, a couple of pieguy's later posts were more town-looking, then I might agree. But his earlier posts? Nope. Even if I were to disregard any issues with it, there's nothing in those posts that made me think, "yeah, this is more likely to come from pieguy as town."

Also, this issue that you apparently have with our disagreement here; when did it start becoming an issue? Because you didn't seem to think it was an issue at the time, unless I'm forgetting something, and you only now seem to think it's an issue after nacho started pushing me.

You say you think we're scum. Do you think we're partners with pieguy?

No, I think you being scum would imply pieguy town.

It was too early for pie to believe that a tunnel argument would be taken seriously/too early to make that call. Deciding to respond to a very, very soft push like that as scum is making a move that is pretty fucking hard to back off from and it's a gigantic risk because either it works or it doesn't.

I saw it as him overreacting in an attempt to shake off the suspicion building up on him. I don't know that he knew it would lead to a tunnel argument, and I don't think it's something he would be scared to do as scum if it was an attempt at emulating something.

What lacks in my play for it to be game-solving?

The solving-the-game part, I guess. So uh. Everything? What have you actually done as of this post? I don't even think you have a scum read outside of me.

There's a playful humor that underscores everything town-zmuffin posts usually, even when he's verbally eviscerating someone. It was there at the start but it faded pretty quickly. Do you know what I'm talking about in his usual town play? Do you see what I'm talking about regarding his play so far here?

I don't know that it's ever been true (now or in the past) that I'm always playful as town (or that when I'm scum, I'm less playful). A large part of when and where I choose to employ humour depends on my feelings about the game in general at the time. I rarely employ humour when, for example, I'm attempting to make _actually_ serious points.

What was the last town game you played with me? Serum & Steel? Do you think anything about my mastin push there, for example, was humourous?

in Touhou IN, there was Varsoon vs. me right at the start

<snip>

Yeah, OK...

You (and nacho) seem to be suggesting that my post #119, before anything had even taken place (as in, before GB had even seen your #112 and responded to it) is bad because I "took a side". And since you're now also pushing this line of reasoning, I'm just going to nip this awful shit in the bud.

There was no fucking argument to take sides on.

I commented on your god-awful push because that's what it was; a god-awful push. In the first place, if you thought pushing Yuriko was scummy, then you should have been attacking other players who also thought this (like, oh, I don't know, the person voting her?) and if you thought his bork read was scummy, then you should have also been attacking anyone else who formed the same read. But you didn't mention them, and went straight for an argument with the person voting you because... they mentioned that you'd been posting elsewhere, even though that clearly wasn't the primary reason they were voting you.

But ignoring that and the other issues I had with your initial push on gentlemen, you (and nacho) seem to be either mixing up or misrepresenting the sequence of events. gentlemen hadn't responded. I didn't comment on the strength of gentlemen's at the time non-existent arguments against you because, surprise fucking surprise, it was non-existent (as was the second point you made against him in this post). I commented on your post and your post alone. Conflating this with what I did in bork's IN is just dumb (and, by the way, you've actually used against me as scum before, so if I were scum and you were town, I'd know you know about it and avoid anything that could be perceived as similar like the fucking plague).

So nacho's dumb argument that bork's take on it was town for looking at both sides of the argument and criticising both sides and I'm scum because I only attacked pieguy is fucking dumb, and part of why I think nacho's bullshitting his read on me. At some point he also suggested instead that I was egging gentlemen on or something, but that's just as bad an argument because (a) IF #112 is as town as nacho is suggesting it is, then gentlemen might have seen that too and what I said about it wouldn't have influenced their opinion on it (like it apparently didn't influence sangres's opinion on it, but oh, I might have influenced gentlemen because they're pure shit at the game or something), and (b) I didn't need to do anything as scum there if an argument was inevitably going to break out (I could have, for example, just refrained from commenting on it, which is probably what I would have done if I actually were scum - at least until an argument was actually happening) - nothing I said there could have possibly influenced anyone's opinion on that post.

You suggesting this is similar to me taking sides in an argument in that bork-game is equally dumb because (a) even if it were, taking sides is part of mafia anyway (and it's not like you've never seen me do that as town), but (b) there were no sides to take on the 1v1 because

there was no 1v1

.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Actually, I don't have time to do a full catch-up atm.

Skimmed recent stuff.

Haven't had a chance to synch with Nati over the last couple days because I've been busy and she apparently doesn't have a PC atm, which sucks because I don't think Nati agrees with me on much but whatever.

This is where I'm currently at:

I sincerely doubt bbMolla is scum. I don't think he's a good enough player to say some of the things he's said in this game in the manner he's said them as scum. In particular, the string of posts that started at #200 is a big part of where my town read on him comes from. If Yuriko is scum, this is even more the case. I think his play in general looks pretty unreserved and a lot of his posts have clicked with me.

I think bammy is town. No one particular post comes to mind here (I pretty much just stopped talking to nati about them because it ended up me citing a bunch of post numbers and saying they looked town and I don't think Nati disagrees with this anyway). I've liked a lot of the direction of bork's questioning and the way he and tammy are thinking about the game is mostly in line with the way I'm seeing things (and the slight differences here and there don't really concern me).

I think gentlemen is town. I didn't like all of the arguments gentlemen was making about pieguy in the early stages of the game, but I thought it was coming from a town mindset. I talked to Nati a bit about #151 and some of the reasons I think that's more likely to come from Regfan as town than Regfan as scum. Also, for a lot of the same reasons I like bammy, I think the lines of questioning from them and the stances they've been taking have looked town. I think I'm OK at reading Regfan, too. I think I've seen his scum game twice and got it correct both times, and outside of the first game we played together, I don't think I've ever had much trouble figuring out when he's town either. I think Nati disagreed but we haven't had a chance to talk about why yet.

I didn't think the 'town slip' by soft-spoken was all that solid, but posts like 502/504 made me feel better about him. I don't really have an issues with his play and the way he's approaching reads looks genuine enough.

I've already talked about pieguy in depth. I currently think pieguy is more likely to be town than scum, in part because I doubt he's scum with sangers, in part because of a couple select posts that I'm not sure he's capable of as scum. I would feel better about him if I'd liked any of the pushes he's done this game but uh... outside the gentlemen push and some issue he brought up with me, I don't actually think he's made any pushes.

I don't really remember anything quilford has done. I think I had a vague, weak town read on him at some point but I don't remember why. Meh.

There's very, very little I can find in sanger's ISO I've actually liked. I don't mind some of the questions ffery has asked and that's about it. I think nacho's push on me is the biggest load of shit I've seen since that one time I had that bad curry and I really don't think he's that bad a player that he'd push the angles he's pushed this game as town. I don't like ffery piggy-backing it in the way she's been doing it; it feels more like she's trying to force herself to agree with nacho's push on me than coming to the same conclusion in a natural way. This is one of the reads I really want to hammer out with Nati when I get the time since I don't actually think Nati is paying close enough attention to what they're writing but whatever.

And I think I've already mentioned the things I don't like about Yuriko's early posts. Since then, promises to catch up and no delivery. I don't really feel any different about her now than I did before. Haven't had a chance to talk with Nati about this, either.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Actually, that's somewhat ordered but I didn't mean for it to be.

Also,

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

- The "dumb" argument about the difference between bork's approach and yours was *my* dumb argument, not Nachos.

OK. That just makes me feel stronger that you're piggy-backing Nacho's push in an unnatural way because that actually makes no sense.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

also, completely unintentional account-slip because i'll likely be limited to phone posting for a bit from tomorrow and i fucking hate logging in and out between accounts on phone

-Nati

Please don't post on my account anymore, Nati.

--muff

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

A more detailed elaboration on the town read on Molla would be appreciated ie. What about that series of posts

exactly

are you reading as town (We do agree entirely that if Yuriko is scum that Molla is town though, this is something I mentioned to Empire after he made Post 200 ect.)

The 'series of posts' was pretty much everything he wrote on p9. Starting with #200. The way he is thinking about the game as he catches up on it looks less like a guarded player trying to come up with fake shit to say and more like a town player blurting out natural thoughts.

I also just don't think #200 was fake.

His other posts haven't made me feel any different. He's being pretty open about thoughts on the game and the way he's forming reads doesn't feel like scum. *shrug* I don't really know what you're expecting with detail here. I don't think he's playing like scum.

2) Would like you to ISO Quilford and let us know what posts of his gave you the townish feel, also would like your thoughts on his SS interaction and scum-read.

IIRC it was his reaction to the pieguy-you thing. Mostly the way he was trying to play facilitator felt town at the time, I think. So posts between #135-#165. Quilford's one of the people I wanna solidify a read on anyway, so I'll probably look back over his ISO in a bit more detail when I have time.

3) What about SS's 'townslip' isn't 'solid' to you? More specifically what about my town read on him do you disagree with in Post 543.

It's more that I'm not writing it off as a town-slip when it isn't necessarily.

I could, for example, imagine a scenario where he did roll scum and thought "wow, this is different to EM" and decided to play it up as a way to 'town slip'; but, if that were the case, I think it and the way he talked about it afterwards (like 502, 504) might have come across as a little more robotic and less natural.

4) Which posts (Links/Quotes would be nice) gave you get the impression that Fferry was piggy-backing Nachos scum-read/reasoning on you so much? There may be a few instances where she's shown slight agreement but for the most part I've got the opposite impression from her play so far, feels more like she has some qualms with your play but none of them seem to be based around anything similar to Nachos and I find her stance much more understandable?

The qualms she has against me are qualms that only became qualms after Nacho started pushing me. The issues she has with my early pie read, for example, should have been issues she had when the actual posts took place if she thought the things she says she thinks about pieguy's posts. Instead, they weren't issues until after Nacho started the attack on me. Like she made some list of things about the game that stood out to her at some point earlier in the game and none of it was the things she apparently thinks are wrong with my approach to the pieguy read that happened before she wrote that list.

What it looks like to me is Nacho going "hey, I'm gonna push muffin" and her going "OK, I'll support you if I see an opportunity..." or something along those lines. Which would explained the half-assed meta argument and the angle she's pushing with regards to my reaction to pieguy v you compared to bork's (where one happened before it was actually a thing and the other happened after...)

I'm really too lazy to actually pull up the quotes; just compare her posts pre-nacho entrance to her posts post-nacho entrance for an idea of what I mean, and also just look at the things she's actually saying about me. Her major arguments are that bork-me comparison thing (actually nonsense), a meta argument (which, apart from being a really poor analysis of my meta, also ignores that every time I've actually been scum against her, I've abused the fact that I know what she thinks I'll do as town/scum) and that I don't agree about pieguy's early posts being town (meh). And none of these were issues before nacho decided I'm scum.

Like I piggy-backed your Mastin push in S&S?

What does this even mean?

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

You're not putting stock in it. You've suggested you have independent reasons to think I'm scum that are different from nacho's. And those reasons look less like things you concluded based on natural thoughts about me and more like things you're making up after nacho decided to call me scum.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

yoyoyo

Guess who's here finally after computer breakable and work?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

He told me to be town so he doesn't have to be and then said see you in two days...

It's frustrating, I'm up during prime australian time to talk to Telnaior, but muffin is awake when I'm asleep because he's on US time or something and its soo frustrating.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Oh yeah we did have a small talk about our conflicting reads on you, and the deal is that muffin is just crazy and tunneling a bit(imo) on Nacho. I got him to admit he doesn't have as much trouble with your side of things, at least. He'll simmer I think after reread.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Yuriko is correct lynch today btw.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I didn't mean to ignore you, Tammy!!

I'm sorry!!!

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

It's more that you haven't been around when I have been and also you mostly posted in the parts of the game I didn't read and no one said you flipped out or something....


Say hi to me on skype sometime!

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Because ffery is so sweet and logical and talks with words that don't trigger my ADD! There might be some inherent bias in here due to being friends with her, and the way I sort Nacho always is 'wait til late in the game', but I don't really see the manipulation this game or the little excuses.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Please don't lynch me tammy!!!

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

You don't find anything off with the way that nacho has been pushing your slot?

I really haven't read nacho's push on us mostly >.> He writes in a way I don't really understand!

You really haven't been reading if you think that we want to lynch you guys.

Also sleepy and stuff. I was a little confused because I seemed to remember bork was satisfied with us or something of that sentiment?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

In tales of you when you reached out to me and handed me the Song Contest Mafia card for payment due, it was almost like a physical hand-clasp it was so real, so immediate and I could feel your certainty that I'd know - right then - what to do.

There's nothing tangible and really, really town-nati to town-ffery in our conversations so far.

First part is true, second part

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

You didn't have a hard time understanding him in FFX when we had him as scum the entire game and decided to push on him the day before we died.

I don't know what you mean by this.

I don't really have a good answer to this. The thing is, my ability to read games is wildly different depending on the game. I was mostly checked out in FFX while here I'm actively leading the hydra more or less. It's partly personality mix--When Nacho is the only one posting like he is, it's readable, but when you have muffin, Empire, Regfan and ffery doing it(in a nine player game), it hurts. It doesn't hurt that I tend to read better when *in the moment*(hence why I always ask if people are around because I can use them as real-time lens to filter my thoughts) than in scrolling through pages.

tldr I don't even know what i"m trying to say these are just really bad excuses.

Satisfied with what? We've both literally been trying to get Sangres to actually clarify their push on you and what they think, so I have no clue what you're referring to.

I don't know what I'm refering to.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I know that you are capable of convincing me beyond doubt, beyond fake claims, beyond setup scenarios that you're town.

It doesn't feel like you're trying to do that.

If you're town, this is a terrible terrible misread we have going, and it leads down a terrible terrible path for town.

I mean, this playerlist was doomed to this quagmire from the start.

I can see how I can come across as unnatural, though. Also, to be fair, expecting every of my performances to show up as Tales of You levels of good(arguably, Rancid's best game) is kind of folly too.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I wish Nacho were here tonight.

I wish muffin was here He showed up earlier to talk to me about an anime and then left. I feel like he's avoiding me

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

It's okay, I'm sorry I'm letting you down.

And yeah I almost forgot that normal. You modded that?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

OH, THAT NORMAL.

My mind is in the gutter tonight.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Also, also guys it's official. I'm a doctor!!!!!!!

I find this claim a little scummy. Could be fake.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Which of Molla's posts do you click with? Because as far as I remember, Molla hasn't stated very many firm reads and I believe he even townreads sangres.

Not his reads per se, just the things he's posting. I'll talk a little more about what I liked about the series of posts starting at #200 to give you an idea of what I mean. Posts like #202 (followed by #205) and #204 look really honest in a way that, while not entirely impossible to fake, is more likely genuine than not. Combine that with posts like #418, #420, the thing he said about sabotage and #473. Yeah, I don't agree with his reads (I imagine it will be a cold, cold day in hell before all of my town reads see eye to eye with me on every read) but doesn't look like scum coming up with fake content.

tl;dr It's more the manner in which he's posting than anything else.

I dropped the Touhou UPick game right now to go read S&S2 and there's a lot that is really distressing me :/ (as in, I see lot of parallels between what she did there and what she's doing here).

I agree. And that reminds me that part of what bothered me about ffery is that she was in that game, watching it play out in real time along with me, and either doesn't think the parallels are significant or doesn't see why I thought the play she was making earlier on in this game had strong similarities to what she was doing there.

If she is town somehow, I have need to fix the way Im thinking about this game

This is pretty much where I'm at. Nati has been saying she's not sure Yuriko is scum, but tbh she's probably scum who's never going to deliver on the promises to catch up. And if she isn't scum, I would rather find that out and re-evaluate

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

as in, over the last 24-48 hours zmuffin's questions to us and posts about us give me some vague town glimmers. The thing that especially hit home was his comment about piggy-backing. Maybe this is something that's been obvious to other players, and maybe some of the doubt about us springs from the way my read formed - in catch-up mode trying to adapt to a gamestate where nacho was scumreading zmuffin and I didn't understand why.

But, it's zmuffin that actually articulated it and pinpointed what has felt strange to me about my own stance - I've been presented with a fact - Nacho scumreads zmuffin, and rather than form my own read I've been trying to reconstruct and confirm Nacho's read.

So, to me his comment was extremely perceptive and I want to call that kind of perceptivity town, because it's not shallow. But...zmuffin is terrifyingly good at scum and maybe I'm letting my guard down too easily.

Interesting. The openness here actually makes me feel a little better about you since it doesn't really look like placating and I am not sure you would have backed off rather than continuing the push.

That said, I probably would have noticed the same sort of thing if I were scum, so it's also not a particularly town thing for me to notice I think. I feel there are probably things in this game that I might not have said or thought as scum, but this is not one of them, so meh. If this is all it took for me to make you start doubting a scum read, then I don't really know what to say.

The scumteam I was operating with earlier was you-Yuriko.

What was the reasoning behind this?

I also want to clarify that your push would be advantageous for scum not because you'd be reinforcing a bad read on Regfan, but because of the effect it would have on pieguy.

Maybe, and I definitely would do something similar on a psychological level if I perceived it as possibly giving me some sort of advantage, but I don't really think anything I said was all that radical or incendiary. (I also think I tend to be pretty transparent as scum when I'm doing something deliberately manipulative on a psychological level, in ways where you'd know my intention was to deliberately stir shit if you sat down and looked at it for a while)

How much of your read on me was you *actually* thinking that something I did was scummy and how much of it came down to a lack of town read?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

when you push a player like that as scum, they will scum read you pretty much every time

I actually disagree with this for so many reasons it's not funny (which is probably part of the reason we don't see eye to eye on #112). I've never had a chance to do it as scum, but going on the offensive from the get-go has been one of the things I've wanted to do in a scum game for a long time because even if the person you do it to scum reads you for it, a lot of other people will town read you for it if it looks like you have enough conviction. Think of the amount of arguments like that one that get called "TvT".

Willing to wait on your Quilford read more once you've gone through and ISO'ed him but consider this a reminder to get around to that.

Tomorrow(today) is the first day off I've had in a few weeks. I'm about to sleep, but I'll be doing reading and (hopefully) getting in touch with Nati some time so we can actually sit down and hash things out.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Gonna read pieguy v tammy after sleep because lots and lots of words

Though if you get a chance, pieguy, I'd like to see you talk about at least your read on me (and/or nati) in more depth.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I just wanted to say that you're all nice people and I love you all.

-naffin

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

@ Molla

- Want your current read on Pie/Us/Muffin with explanations behind them in detail plz.

Townish/No Idea/Scummish

Hey, bbMolla. I know there are a lot of walls in this game and it might be hypocritical of me to say this, but just because he asked for detail, doesn't mean you had to write so much - you could have been a little more concise.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Willing to wait on your Quilford read more once you've gone through and ISO'ed him but consider this a reminder to get around to that.

Eh, I was hoping Quilford would have produced new content by the time I

stopped being lazy

had time to actually go through his ISO, but alas, it wasn't to be.

I'm going to give you a cop-out answer, since I don't really have a strong opinion on him. I see some things in his ISO that make me go "eh, could be town," and other things that don't make me feel all that good. I didn't like his initial posts in this game. I didn't mind his response to the whole pieguy-you fight. I don't think his interactions re:soft-spoken look all that bad and I could see them coming from either alignment, tbh (I understand the point of view that he might have been doing it to keep a mislynch on the table but eh, it wasn't really an unreasonable line of thinking for a town player to have).

Overall, he just hasn't really done much, and I don't really have any sort of strong town read on him, and that's about it. *shrug*

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I had something I wanted to say to sangres but I forgot what it was.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

And I think it's very very important we get real flips now for the sake of the game, and I also think it's important we wait to lynch the Yuriko a lot until it's blatantly obvious that it's not going to get replaced. If we mislynch Yuriko now, that's a big win for scum (my #1 priority if I were scum with not-Yuriko would be getting Yuriko lynched). If we hit scum with Yuriko, game state doesn't actually change that much since no one dies except the person not doing anything.

Oh, right. It was that I disagree with this in almost every way it is possible to disagree with this.

The worst possible scenario here is Yuriko is town-not-firefighter, and even then, not so bad since there's a mound of interactions around the Yuriko wagon because it's been a thing for most of the day.

I think there's a pretty decent chance she's just scum, though.

Anyway, probably going to be home (relatively) early tomorrow so might force myself to read shit here.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I'm here again. Sorry for disappearing, real life's been hard the last few days.

But I'm back!

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I think most players aren't willing to end the day yet, even if they're voting Yuriko

I'm actually fine with the day ending whenever, tbh, and the sooner the better. I don't see a reason to needlessly stall the day out when the lack of standard night kills means conversations aren't going to be suddenly cut off. If people are fine with lynching Yuriko, I'd rather get this show on the road (I think the deadline is pretty close anyway?) and if people want something else to happen, then fucking do something about it.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Vote Count 1.2

YurikoJasmine - 3 (Rancid Broderick Drake, BBmolla, Gold Saucer)
pieguyn - 1 (Gentlemen Bastards)
Soft-spoken - 1 (Quilford)
Gentlemen Bastards - 1 (pieguyn)
Rancid Broderick Drake - 1 (Soft-spoken)
Quilford - 1 (sangres)

Not Voting: YurikoJasmine

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Like, this votecount is disgusting. None of you are bad enough players to believe vanity wagons are a good thing for the health of the game, but none of you are really pushing any of your votes.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Actually, I just noticed Nati was in that game, too.

Does Nati have any thoughts on Quilford? I did a CTRL + F search through Drake's ISO but I think only Muffin's talked about him?

Tbh, the extent of our conversation about Quilford has pretty much been me saying "I'm not really good at reading Quilford, you do it" and then Nati saying "me neither, you do it"

Something something about the way Quilford plays and not being able to read it on an emotional level or something.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Or maybe that was just specific to this game. I dunno. I haven't got a hold of Nati in the past few days to talk about this game because both of our RL situations have been not-so-great.

I'll ask Nati to talk about stuff whenever she's on next.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

[quote="In post 905, sangres"]it's a philosophical thing. If she's lynched and flips scum where does that lead tomorrow? What associations has she left?/quote]
This argument is dumb. If she's scum, she may not be leaving behind a massive trail of associative tells on her end but this isn't like a flash wagon that came out of nowhere. Yuriko (and the wagon itself) have been pretty consistently talked about for most of the day.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Are you hitting on me?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Getting to this tomorrow.

-Nati

PS: There ain't room enough for two lazy people in this hydra, Nati. Get to work.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I haven't read shiznit in the last 10 pages and Nati hasn't responded to anything I've said in the last 5 days so I've contacted the police who are sending out a search party, but if they don't find anything, then I guess I'm going solo

Reading stuff on breaks tomorrow. Hopefully will be up to date by the time I get home

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Two separate things. Me not reading is unrelated to Nati being missing.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Also zMuff I deffos remember you reading me with laser precision in Amrun's Otters vs Tigers vs Sharks Mafia and in a Kise (I think) game that was similar to Triplicate Mafia in setup but had a video game theme iirc

I vaguely remember the capcom game but I don't even recall what your alignment was in that. Likewise, the only thing I remember about Amrun's game was that I fake-claimed some utterly ridiculous role and died N1.

You have the kind of playstyle I hate reading, tbh. It reminds me a lot of players like TSO. I've been kind of hoping Nati takes the reins when it comes to reading you, but she's been about as useless as a use-by date on sour cream this game.

<snip>

It occurs to me that some of the reason you think I should have had a town read on pieguy is because you think my experience with pieguy as a player should have lended some better insight or something when in reality, I almost never get a chance to actually see pieguy's town game as town. I think we've been town together like... 3 times? 4 times? And my track record in reading pieguy isn't as great as you seemed to think it was. Also, a lot of the things you were pointing out as things that look town are neither things I particularly agree with or things I usually look for in posts. Reading people on an emotional level is neither my forte nor something I even care for. That's more Nati's thing, and Nati's been telling me my pieguy read was dumb from the get-go so make of that what you will. pieguy was hitting a lot of the cues I was expecting he would hit as scum in the early stages of the game.

The explanation here makes me feel a lot better about the way you were pushing me in the early stages of the game, though. Like, I don't think these are particularly strong points, but I can see why you in particular would think this way given certain things.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

tbh, asking for a CC on yuriko was probably playing it unnecessarily safe but whatever. The way that claim came out was bad enough

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

so Nacho

when you get a chance, talk to me about

BBM

This was largely ignored because of the claim stuff happening at the time, but did you have a scum read on bbMolla at this point?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Asking for a CC was the safe thing to do. I am probably just talking out of my ass with the power of hindsight.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Quil is likely the partner. more or less for that town read she attempted to put up on him in her reads post (848) for vague reasons which in actuality I think were entirely fakeable - gut says it could be newb scum who was afraid to commit to a town read on her partner.

Mm. Maybe. But she didn't really seem all that competent and I'm not really sure newbie-scum decides to interact in that way with a partner in a game like this.

Actually, I don't really feel all that strongly that Quilford is scum outside of the fact that I (a) don't really have a town read on him and (b) don't really know where else to look at the moment. I do wanna take some time to actually go over this game and relook at how the Yuriko wagon formed over the course of the day but I lack the time to sit down and actually do this for more than an hour or two a night.

If someone else could pull up any relevant Yuriko stuff and save me the time and trouble, I'll give them a cookie.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I don't think that's why pieguy was asking about bbMolla and I don't get that impression at all (unless you just mean pieguy could have got away with not asking any questions? That particular line of questioning was pretty neutral, though). Also would have rathered you kept that comment to yourself for the time being, but whatever.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

When you have a weak partner in a playerlist where getting mislynches is hard, you need good credibility to force through the mislynches you need since you can't rely on town error.

How does this factor into your Quilford read, then?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Eh, didn't realise it was already midnight. Gonna leave thoughts with Nati and finish catching up when I get home tomorrow.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

objectively speaking, how strong do you think Nacho's town case on me was?

If you are referring to his point about emotional manipulation, I can understand his perpsective on that point but that level of emotional play isn't unfakeable (and usually is genuine, in the sense that it probably does come from something the player is genuinely feeling at the time). For example, I could see you saying that as scum who is genuinely feeling down about the game and you might have really been depressed if not for sangres. Emotional manipulation on that level isn't hard - I'm not sure why nacho thinks he couldn't do that. Presumably because he thinks it's a dirty tactic or something you wouldn't resort to? Or maybe because he thinks that even if you genuinely thought that, you wouldn't actually write it for some reason? Meh. I'm not even an emotional player and I've written similar things in the past (e.g. to mastin in the wire, when I felt manipulation on a personal level was necessary).

But unlike me, nacho is the kind of player who reads into emotional states and attempts to discern reads from it. I personally think it's not all that an effective way of scum hunting, but it's easily a thought process I could see nacho having.

If instead you're referring to his points about your early attack on gentlemen and other early posts in the game, then I think it's pretty weak (and probably wasn't intended as a town case, given how early in the game it was, so much as an explanation for his thought processes there earlier on). It's again something that's reasonable enough for nacho to think. But not an objectively strong case by any means.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Been busy. Reading shit tomorrow. Got the weekend off so yay.

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Didn't have as much time to catch up as I thought over the weekend since stuff came up

Nati's pretty much abandoned me for reasons and I am gonna be behind for basically however long this game goes since I don't see myself having much free time in the next few weeks. So I can either replace out or, if enough people feel it's likely that I'm scum, you can just lynch me (but then I'll probably end up replacing out anyway so there's at least someone not completely useless in my slot after I'm dead). I'd rather not replace out since I do like this playerlist but it's either that or I'm probably never caught up for the rest of the game which isn't really fair on this game

I guess lynching scum today functionally achieves the same goal of getting me out of this game, but I don't feel good about anyone being scum atm, soooooooooooo meh. I don't see myself wanting to lynch softspoken or bormy unless something drastically changed/changes at some point. I don't think regfan is scum and would be rather surprised if some of the things he's written and some of the appeals he's made this game came from him as scum. I stopped thinking sangres was scum a while ago. pieguy and Quilford are the two I feel least good about this game but this is more of a don't-really-think-they're-as-town-as-others-so-could-be-scum thing.

I'm going to get dinner then I'll try catching up on the 20 or so pages I'm still behind with the time I have tonight. I'll prob do some final thoughts write-up or something with a bit more detail before making a replacement request

-Nati

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I feel real bad about abandoning muffin. We just can't be on at the same time and I was out of it this week(and every other week obviously) and I always end up doing the same fucking thing and I hate the reputation it's given me.

But ugh. Here I am, at least. If muffin leaves, so be it, I understand, but I'll stick this through.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Before I start catching up here: has Nati been caught up in this game? I'd kinda really like to see where she's at now.

Define 'caught up': As in, not actively avoiding this game like I was(in my greater active avoidance of mafiascum so I could keep smiling and not stressing about activity quotas), or as in the fact I likely won't put too much heart into rereading everything again.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

BTW this is prob ending in my lynch because I can't handle the fire but I think gun to my head atm it has to be Empire and Regfan? At least, that's where my ~~heart~~ is leading me?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

I chuckled at the tammy/ffery almost-fight

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

How I feel about this game

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Thanks! I'm putting maximum effort in now, actually.

Like, idk. I'm feeling pretty good about this game atm.

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

i think quilford-slot is probably the last scum still!

Would you consider his replace out a sort of depressed "we've-lost" replace out then?

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

because I didn't really get the resignation to defeat tone from his last post. It seemed more genuine(which isn't to say it could be genuine as scum though, but eeeh).

[Rancid Broderick Drake]

Hm.