Micro 488: Forest Fire - Endgame

[Gold Saucer]

/confirm

-b

[Gold Saucer]

VOTE: sangres

What's shakin?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Hey hey.

Any thoughts on anything alignment indicative happening yet?
I am monitoring a few things but I don't feel particularly inclined to budge in on any of them yet.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

(I've been drinking a bit so prepare for increasingly incoherent posts.)

I strongly suspect I've caught up with you.

Where is everybody?

I'm here. Few drinks behind you though

-b

[Gold Saucer]

You are all weird people... How are we supposed to find out who the arsonists are?

You've played other mafia games, right? What did people do in those?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

It's kinda refreshing; most games I've been a part of in the past year have been like 20 pages in the first 3 hours. Then again I've mostly been playing larges.

Otherwise, yeah. Not even everyone has posted yet so I can deal.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

based on?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

You are all weird people... How are we supposed to find out who the arsonists are?

You've played other mafia games, right? What did people do in those?

-b

Yeah but the gaming mechanism is a bit different in this one right? Like people aren't dead after being lynched and they aren't dead after being targeted... Has this setting been played before?

Didn't realize you were commenting on the setup in particular and not RVS / openings in general
Lynches still flip even if they're not technically dead in the case of trees
People eventually die at night and also flip

-b

[Gold Saucer]

based on?

-b

I'm hedging my bets!

If they don't turn out to be scum then that's good coz theyre probs town atm
If they do then it would be really funny coz team mafia etc!

"I think they're town" would've been a really good way for people to not mistakenly get the opposite impression of what you thought. Were you even going to clarify your sentiment if I hadn't asked about it?
Why do you think they're town up to now?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

also sangres probably town question mark

I'm comfortable with ffery's interaction with me up until now, for what that's worth

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Actually, looking over at Yuriko again, she's a kinda towny too?

After #55 I see #46 as a "I don't know how to scumhunt without flips" worry. I'm inclined to agree.

-b

p-edit: didn't read post above yet

[Gold Saucer]

I'm reading [51] as more of a town-tell than a scum-tell here

I read it as a joke, especially considering the seriousness-level of your partner's Quilford vote wasn't really easy to discern at that point

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I don't see how that'd make scumhunting more difficult or harder for her to do especially in an early game position like this where there wouldn't be any flips normally. Also it's not as if flips are hidden it's just a case of lynched town can still post which shouldn't impact scumhunting again? So yeah, I don't see her "worries" as genuine at all. I'm going to be p disappointing if that's what Empire is reading as town here.

Nah, I am wondering [due to #55] if she (mistakingly) thought this was a game where people just didn't flip (or didn't flip except on the delayed nightkill). I feel like that particular concern might be a central worry of a town aligned player and not a scum aligned one.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I'm reading [51] as more of a town-tell than a scum-tell here

I read 53 as a joke, especially considering the seriousness-level of your partner's Quilford vote wasn't really easy to discern at that point

-b

edited for clarity

[Gold Saucer]

Probably not, because then I would have thought that you understood what I was saying? I definitely noticed that people could get the wrong impression after I hit submit, but I figured I could just clarify if they asked.

I'm not really satisfied with the sentiment you're presenting here (that lack of clarity is ok, especially in this medium) but I don't see anywhere productive to go with this conversation.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

So yeah, I don't see her "worries" as genuine at all.

This kinda implies you think she's scummy. Do you?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

As much as I like the hypothetical compliment, you can bank this one

-b

[Gold Saucer]

God and tammy hasn't even posted

-b

[Gold Saucer]

What do you think about the Yuriko thing in general re: 46/55 and reactions surrounding?

p-edit: Well, start with that question. I'll be around sporadically tomm.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Empire popped in, his town read on Yuriko is dead - It was based around him thinking the "how do I get reads you people are weird" being about peoples play rather than the setup, he agrees that it being about the setup isn't genuine/doesn't make sense. Still not sold on his Sangres town read (Though I'm starting to see it re; Post 75) but he's agreeing p strongly on Bork being town which is nice.

Why would his initial interpretation imply Yuriko is town, then?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Hi guys! I just got back home and am super duper tres tired. If I get some grading done and wake up, I'll post something. Otherwise, tomorrow. But Bork's got this, so.

[Gold Saucer]

I would hope he's inexplicably more obvtown than me considering he's made 20 of our 21 posts and mine is a post to say I'll post at some point.

If anything it makes me feel more carefree!

(I never care if someone is more obvtown than me though; just that people see me as obvtown.)

[Gold Saucer]

Oh hey, I just realized that if the stars align, we could have this game solved by the end of day two.

[Gold Saucer]

GB is scum, or at the very least their push on me is one of the most awful things I think I've ever seen. I haven't been fond of their other posts, either. more elaboration on this incoming.

Curious as to what you think about RBD / Quil since they essentially agreed with what GB said

And I'm assuming you're just reacting to 63 at this point -- I don't think he's talked about you otherwise.

Have only skimmed the walls so far

-b

[Gold Saucer]

And I'm assuming you're just reacting to 63 at this point -- I don't think he's talked about you otherwise.

Nevermind, there was 103 too

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Empire says this is one of the worst things he has ever seen and I think I agree, if you were reading the game you'd have noticed our vote wasn't initially on you and was rather on Quilford (We disliked his early posts and wanted to get a reaction out of him, the vote on him a mix between a pressure-vote and a scum-read) the same was the case on our vote on you. It wasn't a "everyone lynch Pie, he's scum, we're positive!" vote at all, it was a vote saying "I feel more comfortable being here" and an added "I feel better about the vote knowing he's been online but avoided this". So you making out our vote was a "push" is ridiculously scummy, like insanely scummy - it shows you haven't read the thread properly and rather are just pushing back on us.

I disagree that this is scummy. Explain why that is "ridiculously scummy"

-b

[Gold Saucer]

the bork town read jumped out at me. taking a laid-back/observing approach is relatively easy to fake as scum. and "genuinely attempting to get a read" is completely unsubstantiated (I'm interested in what, specifically, made you think this).

in general, I feel most of the positions in 63 were ass-backwards; I think sangres is likely town and don't really see how he's seeing bork's posts (which I think have been easy to fake for the most part) as more town.

What actually is your read on me then?
-b

[Gold Saucer]

Super skimmed those walls because just woke up and fuck that but,

Pieguyn - your read and reasoning on sangres is complete trash especially when coupled with your lol ffery Bork hasn't done anything fakable yet, which is also complete trash reasoning to throw shade when your throwing a hissy fit about "forced" being a shit reason for a read. (Didn't know you felt so strongly about the forced thing, so that's interesting).

Anywho ffery hasnt done anything unfakeable yet and if your going to apply that to one person for giving a read why ignore it for another? Why wouldn't she ask empire a question again? I feel pretty confident that she would, as scum, want to look like she was reading empire, and lol if you think she wouldn't throw fake suspicion or paranoia on someone because they might look at her, especially when her other head is nacho. And you've actually been somewhat decent at reading nacho and I woukd expect in your reasoning for that weird town read for you to reference that.

Also your response to gb feels a bit overblown for a page five push for a nebulous forced post and being active elsewhere thing. (I realize that this might sound weird coming from me, but it feels overblown even by my standards). There are a couple people here who've been pretty decent at reading you, but In your fit over the reasoning I'm not getting a feeling of fuck you regfan there are people who can read me, I get obvtown when I'm town so you'll see, kinda vibe which I would expect if you're this mad. Instead you seem mad at the reasoning, which is concerning considering its a page four scum read and by definition is going to be weak.

But woukd super duper love an explanation for why you're so mad over the reasoning for that while at the same time going "Bork hasn't done anything fakable yet!" which is well you get the idea.

[Gold Saucer]

I sign, she doesn't. was her.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

@pie (im on mobile so im not even going to attempt to quote):

1) if i am straight null (and really? Its not like ive done

nothing

) i dont feel like you should be taking as much umbrage with a townread on me, esp. considering how lateral-thinking-y yours on ffery is.

2)you really havent batted an eye at anyone besides gb calling you forced. Especially not the nati/muffin slot.

3) i am a little weirded out by your burden of proficiency argument, but fine, tales was a weird experience for a lot of people. even so, this is a really easy way for a person to keep me at null indefinitely if they so choose because "who knows what he's capable of"

Either way i want some clearer heads going on in this thread. Come back later.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Im out for a few, i think tammy is around

-b

[Gold Saucer]

My hot takes on gb vs pie after sitting on it for a few hours:

1) No issue with GB's vote in #63.
2) I thought that the implication that pie was avoiding the game in #103 to be a little unfair given the amount of time passed; I don't see it as scummy from GB to bring up.
3) I don't see myself, in pie's shoes, of responding how she (apologies if I have not honored your pronoun change up until now) did in #106 as either alignment. which is why I'm having a little trouble reconciling it.
4) I don't think you can just conflate a reflexive pushback as scummy (see end of 121), which is kinda where I was this morning being a bit sympathetic with pie being angry about it.

The rest of 112 is what I'm not particularly fond of -- I don't feel that any of the differences between pie's and GB's reads (me up, sangres slightly (?) down, yuriko flipped) are good reasons that add to GB being scum. Yuriko is a total gut judgment call (I've not really changed my mind on my position on her as of now) with Pie saying that GB's stance isn't believable (despite RBD agreeing) and I feel that GB's reads on me and sangres, while I can tell that they have me as more certain town, aren't really all that far apart to complain about in earnest.

I also feel that when pressed on the read on me, pie's response on why I shouldn't be read as town amounted to "nothing I've done isn't fakeable" and while that's probably true, I don't see how that's more true on my early game than any other town player in any other game ever's early game short of some sort of objective townslip. If her threshold of townreading me is higher than it is for her reading other people, as she seems to imply in 168 and that's why I'm null and not town, it's silly for her to apply that rubric to anyone else's read on me, which feeds back to the complaint about GB townreading me being disingenuous.

Still feel I need more breadth in interactions at this point in the game.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I'm almost completely through the back and forth. Have some things to do, but will posts some thoughts in a bit.

First though.

Pie - how much experience do you have with regfan? If not much, did you read the tm signs game and see his reasoning for scum reads there, especially concerning me?

[Gold Saucer]

Oh also - pie have you ever seen ffery as scum/correctly read her as scum? If so, when/what game?

[Gold Saucer]

I'm worried that people will be swayed by his influence as a player and wind up scum reading me for poor/incorrect reasons as a result.

gotta say, really don't like this one bit. don't think anyone in this playerlist would be swayed by regfan's 'influence' (largely because they're all pretty competent themselves)

I don't think you answered this question pie.

[Gold Saucer]

bork, have you and pieguy played any games together since tales of you?

Not that i can recall, and none that we interacted in any profound way. I think she was in fakegod's touhou upick 2 that i was in concurrently but died early.

Viscon xroads was a little earlier but she was scum

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I feel like I really should read Tales of You since it's becoming increasingly important but do I really want to do that to myself?

Oh well, here goes nothing.

It's, uh, an experience

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Okay I'm completely caught up, but I have a couple things to do and want to roll around a couple things and mention something to Bork. So a proper post in a bit.

Pie - though when you come back, please don't read my questions and posts to you as jumping on you. Some things about your response reads are throwing me off and I want to get a read on you, so.

[Gold Saucer]

I don't remember and therefore don't have an answer that wouldn't involve me going back and looking myself, which I can do if you want

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I replaced into touhou 2 after you had replaced out and nacho replaced in. nacho tried to school me on the reasons why you had been obvtown in that game in ways you never were in tales of you.

Nacho and I had a good laugh about the way he attempted to endear himself to you with "lol did you try reading bork" and you kinda squinting at him when he came up to Madison

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I have some thoughts about my post tales of you confidence in reading you vs a game or two later, but it wasn't as long a gap between games.

Frankly, I'm sure I'm not

that

hard to read, even after that game, for you.

Dunno if that applies to pie.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Also, I feel at ease with you this game in a way I never did in Nati's game up until when you claimed mason

-b

[Gold Saucer]

God the only thing that going back and reading that is doing is getting me angry at AP again for getting under my skin for no reason when the whole game was townreading me

-b

[Gold Saucer]

So, I have a couple thoughts I'm leaving with Bork and just gonna keep a watch on. Leaving this as a kind of reminder to myself about that.

Leaning town on RBD and am interested in nachos thoughts when he gets there. A few weeks ago we were talking about how to read muffin and he said he thought he was becoming pretty decent at it.

Bork and I both like quilford and Bork said he liked the easy way empire was dealing with him and I agree.

Empires first vote on quail is standard empire and he did seem excited about the game in a way that didn't feel fake. He hates scum and both of them weren't exactly pleased to draw scum in team mafia so their tone already feels good. They would have to fake it in this player list, but it's also not something they'd keep up for very long and will most likely show eventually if they aren't town. Though I do think the way regfan is pushing pieguyn and how frustrated he's getting about it more fits his town self than scum pushing town.

I don't really think ffery's done anything alignment indicative yet and am a little surprised at the strongish town reads there. I really really do not get pie's read there at all based on asking empire a question, which is a standard question she would ask alignment regardless. I also don't think that her agreeing that pie's post looked forced was a town tell either. If people were already calling pie scum, why would she be afraid to agree? Not only that but pie and nacho recently played in a newbie together in which nacho successfully got pie mislynched so I don't get this image of that slot as a wilting flower too afraid to ask questions or fake a scum read on someone. Likewise, I don't think the post where she shows concern Bork could be folding her is a huge town tell. It's well within what she would and could do as scum. I feel like this slot is one I can get an accurate read on, but not this early with what's been put in the thread.

Pieguy pieguy pieguy - I don't know what to think here at all and will wait until I really get a chance to interact with her to make any sort of determination. The amount of frustration reads somewhat townish, but it feels very overblown. I also don't get the way she's forming her reads. It felt like she changed the reasoning for why she wasn't concerned about the muffin slot from thinking it was nati then to muffin. I don't like that she disregarded the muffin and ffery suspicion, for the same basic reasons as regfan, but has been screaming at regfan about it. I mean either they're all bad or regfan isn't. I just don't get this. (There's a little part of me concerned about scum theater here but I also think it's silly)

Pie I'm a little concerned to talk to you about this because if you're town I can see you going "oh I'm not going to listen to you I remember capcom and what you did with bro.", but I really think you're overblowing things here. It's a page four scum read, in a game where a few people hadn't posted, it's going to be weak. I get feeling frustrated at forced accusations; I get that too here and at westeros even though me joking is the norm. But it still happens. People pick up on awkward stuff and push it to see how it goes, you know this. I mean remember tm normal game? How many people jumped on jadon for his entrance. And you know that people pick up on the online thing and wonder why you're not posting here as it's pretty standard stuff. Yes, it's annoying when you're legitimately busy, but it's standard.

Bg couldn't have known that you decided to joke about being scum (and by the way, do you do that often and can you link me to a time you did it?), and if you are busy he couldn't have known that either. I don't see anything wrong with either of the reasons for the push on you, and I know neither of them thought it was a slam dunk scum read and reason, you were just the best thing they had at that point. What I don't get is your reaction, though I do understand blowing up if you're in a bad mood.

But do you honestly, really believe that they thought they had a strong scum case at that point? It's something alignmnt regardless they'd have known was weak, and as I know both heads I know they're going to be reevaluating constantly, and would make a pretense of it as scum too. If you are town please step back because I think you're overreacting/misreading the situation and I'd much much much prefer if you guys didn't continue talking past each other if that's the case. Also if you're town, the way you're approaching it isn't going to get regfan to reconsider as he's more logic based unless he's pretty familiar with your meta to understand you. And if you're still unsure, go back and read the westeros circlejerk pt and look for his reasoning for scumreading me (someone he has a pretty good track record for reading) and you'll see that the reasons he's scum reading you, in the very early game, are not out of line for how he reads the game and what he expects of players.

Part of this is selfish. I'd like an enjoyable game, and I want to be able to read you, and I read you based on how you're reading the game/people, and right now I'm having difficulty with that.

[Gold Saucer]

Bg is regfan.

I'm ambivalent on yukojaz also. I have some thoughts here too but keeping them to myself for a minute.

[Gold Saucer]

bucket.

[Gold Saucer]

It has little to do with your head and a reminder to myself to come back to this when you're done.

I win for the first alt slipper!

[Gold Saucer]

also, I pointed up your lack of reach-out to tammy, but a quick iso/ctl-f indicates she and bork haven't had anything to say about you so far. Do you feel like that's typical of town-tammy?

Hey BB!

[Gold Saucer]

Pie is incredibly incredibly incredibly town. I think I'm going to vote RBD for not seeing that when they should have.

Vote: Rancid Broderick Drake

At what point do you think they should have seen this and acted differently than they have?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Pie is incredibly incredibly incredibly town. I think I'm going to vote RBD for not seeing that when they should have.

Vote: Rancid Broderick Drake

At what point do you think they should have seen this and acted differently than they have?

-b

I have a problem with their reaction to Pie's initial reaction to GB's vote.

Because of Xenosaga in particular (I remember them getting into it there) or because of a body of work together with the two of them or something else?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I feel like you're being unnecessarily vague here

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Like this is obviously about the specifics of the relationship between zmuffin and pie, otherwise what you wrote in 250 makes no sense

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I would expect Muffin to see why.

This is obviously the thing I've been asking you to explain yourself on and you're deflecting doing it

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I would expect Muffin to see why.

This is obviously the thing I've been asking you to explain yourself on and you're deflecting [instead of] doing it

-b

ebwop -b

[Gold Saucer]

I would expect Muffin as scum in that position to view keeping that fight going as very very advantageous to him.

Also why in particular is this true since it relies on negative associatives between RBD and both pieguy AND GB for this to hold any reasonable amount of water

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Consider my vote non-random and at least exploratory at this point

-b

[Gold Saucer]

It's also not something that anyone should take for granted at this point in the game?

Like what do I do, as a town player, that legitimately wants to cut through that stuff and doesn't know the alignment of either player?

I don't know how you can possibly discern between that and "keeping the fight going".

-b

p-edit: above @sangres

[Gold Saucer]

him saying "I only said that once and I felt very very very strongly you were scum" I think is a town tell. that's essentially what I always wind up doing as town and I figured he might have been doing the same thing here; this falls in line with that (he only came up with that bc he was sure I was scum and then dropped it).

Having a hard time parsing what you're saying here

-b

[Gold Saucer]

You don't know the alignment of either player, but you should be able to take a pretty educated guess at that point and react accordingly.

I'm having a really hard time accepting that you think it's inprobable that town-muffin would do something other than immediately clear pie based on stuff that happened on ~page 6 that also, imo, was somewhat limited in content at that point.

This is the type of stuff muffin threw at me in touhou upick 2

you're responding to nacho. this is ffery. my first post of the morning, and I don't want confusion about who's who right now.

noted.

Look at your own reaction to their brouhaha. IMO there's a difference.

Specifics?

-b

p-edit: didn't read yet

[Gold Saucer]

Specifics?

Actually cancel that, possibly not even relevant. I want to know what was scummy about Muffin's reaction in a bubble, with any of the following scopes:

1) context specific to pieguy
2) muffin's relationship to pieguy,
3) muffin in general as a player

Rather than making this about me.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

at first I thought he was just BS'ing there. after seeing this, I think it was town motivated in that it only happened bc he felt really really stongly about me being scum. when I'm town, and feel strongly about a scum read, I usually have very strong urges to deconstruct every single thing they post and explain why it's coming from scum. so it often winds up happening that some specific things I point out are overly nitpicky and I point it out anyway. I think it was coming from that kind of mindset. the fact that he dropped it later reinforces it - he pointed it out bc he thought he was onto something, then dropped it when he stopped thinking it made sense. plus, in general, it fits with his conviction re: the push on me.

This is essentially a definition of what confirmation bias is, which I think is a super null tell (town want to be right, scum want to lynch their target)

-b

[Gold Saucer]

the fact that he dropped it later reinforces it - he pointed it out bc he thought he was onto something, then dropped it when he stopped thinking it made sense. plus, in general, it fits with his conviction re: the push on me.

Sorry, didn't read this part. Ok.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

It was limited in content, yes, but it was enough content to make an alignment-indicative call. I would not have had as much of a problem with it if Muffin thought the reaction was null, either,

but calling it scummy seemed the most unbelievable

and also had the greatest advantage for scum.

You still haven't explained why this is

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I've somewhat skimmed from where I left off last night and have some thoughts but there are some things I'm going to hold on to because I'm interested in how those involved respond to some things. Also, I'm tired.

Also, don't expect much if anything from me until tomorrow night when I get back home. Caled and bpc are coming into Chicago and I'll be busy playing games and tourist.

So, adieu!

[Gold Saucer]

Still on mobile for a few more min but i liked 393 enough that im willing to give you guys the benefit of the doubt.

UNVOTE:

I do want you guys to be a little more candid with me about what Nacho thinks he is seeing with muffin slot. I still don't understand your read and since you guys have been on your back foot the whole time since you made it i want to invite you to explain it in a non-hostile environment

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I pointed out earlier in reply to bork that the thing I saw as different between his reaction to the you/GB 1v1 and zmuffin's reaction was that bork was questioning both of you.

I also would like to know why you think this matters to the extent it does

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Okay.

VOTE: Soft-spoken

Okay.

VOTE: Quilford

Are you actually scum reading Quilford or this this just petulance that he didn't explain himself?
What is your BBMolla read?
Why are the townreads you've talked about town to you?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

@BBMolla - I am trying to figure out how to approach reading you. X-men was a horrible failure in that regard for me in that you were maybe the person I was most surprised flipped the opposite way I thought you would.

Do you have any scumreads?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

@BBMolla - I am trying to figure out how to approach reading you. X-men was a horrible failure in that regard for me in that you were maybe the person I was most surprised flipped the opposite way I thought you would.

Do you have any scumreads?

-b

just ask nacho to read me

I actually skimmed over what he had to say about you before, but:

I liked BBMolla's play this game.

I like that he was the first (or second, don't remember off the top of my head if Quilford mentioned it first) that Pie vs GB was TvT

and I thought his sentiment of not really giving a shit about that fight in general was decently town to me. I also think that his "I think Yuriko is a firefighter" posts are indicative of his town mindset although not particularly unfakeable.

I don't really find the underlined to be a towntell. I think scum can easily just point at two townies fighting (or town and scum fighting -- it's not like any of these people have flipped yet) and call it TvT for various reasons. Obviously town can do it too for legitimate reasons but I just don't like he's deciding it's one and not the other.

How do you feel about it?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

idk what muffin sama was smokaloking because I like pie, although I don't like real pie y'know.

He's so genuine it hurts lel.

To be fair I haven't read anything besdies the first 5 pages and the past two. Still sorting through things.

Also Jasmine is kkkkkkkk newb maybe? Someone talk to me, I want company until Tel wakes up tonight.

hi

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Hi bork! I don't know how I feel about you atm! You're not dictating the flow of the game imo and that's something I always look for you in games with us.

Don't really know what this means or how my presence differs from what you expect. Explain?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

#367 was pretty underwhelming as an assessment of the first 5 pages. I really don't like how he responds to sangres' question, it wasn't even directed at him. Padded out by a response to a joke by molla and a response to a post of mine that's already been thoroughly discussed, the whole thing reads like scum trying to look busy. There's not any actual scumhunting. Also don't like how he says he'll read pages 6-15 and then drops that as well, think he's afraid of people cottoning on if he puts out even more fluff. Last thing is that the abrupt change of tone in #410 is also a bit weird, oh and the fact that he hasn't explained any of his townreads and hasn't declared any scumreads at all.

Votes pls

You've probably got my axe; I need to pick at a few more things right now

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Does anyone who can read Quilford well have a strong townread on him

I have never played with Quilford and he's pretty solidly town for me

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I'm still not in on the joke

Also because I'm really bad at scum and I don't wanna ruin RBD's first scum game, Nati is taking over posting duties from whenever she gets back today since I am really

lazy

busy.

Also, Nati is probably a whole lot easier to read than I am, anyway

, which means less work for me so win/win

-Nati

Is this muffin or Nati

Literally everything in the game before this stuff now and maybe one post earlier today has been muffin

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Like, idk, when I think of bork in all of our most memorable games, you were taking hold and speaking out and acting as the voice of reason more than inquisitor. I'm not feeling it as much this game

Now that I think about it I may be a bit off here. Yeah.

-person

Eh, I reserve the right to inquisit when I think the game calls for a more hands-on approach.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I think Yuriko doing setup spec is unlikely as a normal tree

(she specifically named Arsonists by name

). Hence the Firefighter/Arsonist thoughts and I still stand by it. I think she's probably scum who is scared of the playerlist and hiding behind setup spec.

Underlined: not a bad point at all and not something I was considering when I made my gutshot at her 55 forever ago

-b

[Gold Saucer]

bork is showing me up consistently and I feel like reviewing so many games together has given us two a good ebb-flow to it

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I remember popcorn mafia where I was scum with no nightkill and the only person who could dictate the kill was town-nacho

That, not incidentally, was my least favorite game to date on site

-b

[Gold Saucer]

k I legit need to put an hour or so on FF7 role PMs before I go to bed

-b

[Gold Saucer]

P sure that Softs town from that.

agree

-b

[Gold Saucer]

The soft-spoken towntell is really prompting a reread from me. Not that he was really a scumread but his being likely town is requiring me to shine light in places I've probably only done a cursory job doing up iuntil now.

@pie, re: Quilford. I have had Quilford town due to the manner in which he reacted to GB vs Pie (129 was more than just calling TvT, I felt that he was actively trying to either diffuse it or cut through miscommunication).
298 struck me as town when it was made because I was in a 'push Sangres' mode (which I'm not entirely sure I'm out of yet) and I thought he was seeing similar things to what I was seeing.

These were both times where Quilford's made a post and I've been immediately on the horn to Tammy about Quilford being town.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Liar liar, pants on fire alert! I am about to go to Chicago to hang out with bpc and chicago group, but it turns out I'm going to be staying later than I thought and I won't be getting home until very late tonight. I'm ridiculously tired right now, so the only thing I imagine I'll do is pass out. So, I promise and pinky swear, I will get current tomorrow. But, Bork is on top of things, so.

[Gold Saucer]

I believe that he thought that my 112 was "very town"; and knowing this, it would make sense that he would push RBD for disagreeing over what appears to be a key read.

Drive-by for the moment, but my personal issues are

1) nacho never really adequately explained the special pleading he invoked as to why he pushed muffin for the conflicting read and not someone else

2) i don't find, in general terms, that disagreeing over a key read is something i would push someone on, and even less so this early in the game. I am not weighing this as heavily because he is pushing muffin for muffin-specific reasons, i just wanted to know what they were.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

as a result, I think that if you wanted an easy angle to push to look like you were doing something, pointing out these interactions would seem to fit well enough. it is likely this is smth he would have noticed and thought unusual regardless of what his alignment actually was. do you disagree?

Will talk about this tonight; i think it is a good convo to have

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I don't really remember anyone else reacting the way he did. you/Tammy reached out to me, Quil and BBM thought it might be TvT, and Yuriko/S-S weren't here. am I missing something?

Well there was obviously gb, and i (not tammy, tammy did what you said) was somewhat critical of the fight from both angles. I definitely didn't see it as a towntell.

Quilford was a bit more wishy washy about it.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

the entire angle stemmed from me and GB both being town in the first place

I don't know why anyone should be assuming that unless i'm just really fucking terrible at this game and am miles behind

I think you are paraphrasing ffery's reasoning, not nacho's. Nacho made 250. What does that mean to you?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

ofc there's also the fact that he wouldn't be expecting people who aren't familiar with my play to read it as town, which explains why he would have ignored people like Quil (and potentially yourself since I don't think we've played in a while? either way)

Well i asked about this and got nonanswers.

P-edit: ok, I can't say for sure that I digested that post when it was first made.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Eh I am beginning to get the feeling i took a wrong turn at albequerque on this particular issue

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I do think people getting on my back about halting my Soft push are conspiracy theorising. Uh no, I think all my early points are valid, I think the slip is eminently fakeable (and am definitely going to look into it more when I'm not on my phone) and I don't like Soft's reaction to whomever posted that he likes making scummy entrances for the purposes of getting people's reactions (again will elaborate later). I still don't think he's scumhunted at all and I think the reasoning he gave for his townreads was weak.

Thinking my sigh was me not being able to conceal my irritation that another mislynch had escaped me is hilariously stupid. In actuality, it was because I was worried about adding another townread to an already large pile.

Starting to get a bit wary of GB.

In what regard?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Why would scum even bother to make a post that contains shit all if they didn't think they would get points for at least looking like they were doing something? Especially valid in your case considering it was already a couple pages in and it was your first post of the game that wouldn't be longer than two sentences or something.

You're begging the question here by assuming that he's scum and then attributing motivation here
Unless you think 'tryharding' (which feels just like a loaded phrase) is a thing that only scum would do?
Or that "posting a post" is some sort of tell because that's all you really seem to accuse him of doing here

I don't know this whole thing presupposes SS is scum and I don't understand why you're doing that

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I'm catching up, but I'm stupid tired and have a seminar to attend tomorrow, so there's a very high chance I fall asleep mid-catch up.

[Gold Saucer]

I got distracted and am still mid catch up but I kinda want to lynch kurikojaz...need to see what bork says.

[Gold Saucer]

I'm tired and I've been pretty much marathonning heroes of the storm this week but:

I kinda feel like this is becoming a game of pointing at each other from across the lake as the initial warmth of the hope that the big players in this game might all be town wears off. I think something needs to happen.

I've seldom been in a game where I'm just not inclined to move in any direction because people have given me a number of reasons for early townreads or haven't really shown up. As I write this I don't know that I can quantify my reads in any meaningful way.

I want to bank the soft-spoken read or at least not consider him -- that slip was really fluid and I think you kinda have to be in a mindset
Ffery in particular is really setting off my towndar with her attitude and engagement level. I don't know that I agree with the reasons for Nacho's push on RBD; I had it in my head that a lot of people were willing to pressure pie for the argument earlier and Nacho both 1) picked RBD arbitrarily to push on and 2) is holding RBD to a standard I don't know that I would hold myself to even with players I play with all the time. Pie's changed my perspective on 1) a bit and I'm trying to reevaluate the whole situation.

Most of my other null-to mid townreads either amount to [looks like they're attempting to legitimately scumhunt] (GB, Pie*), Haven't really done anything scummy yet (BBMolla, RBD), seemed to be thinking/saying the stuff that I was thinking about things right as they happened (Quilford - this was a read I really wanted to take to the bank early game and now I don't and I don't know that anything really changed from him over that period; my emotional state and perception of people's arguments changed)

*Pie gets a star because I reread 230. I really feel that's a town post. I wasn't planning on typing that when I started this post - it was mostly based on 168 and how that emotional response was more subdued than I've seen from her in some town games that I have been rereading (Xenosaga being the prime [ok only] example). But 230 reads really town.

Tammy wants Yuriko right now and I'm inclined to agree. It's mostly lack of content, this game isn't really that big, it's been nearly a week, and I know she's not siteflaking; I don't want to call it PoE because my other reads are clustered too close to the same spot in the spectrum to really say "look, these guys are all in a clear townland that I'm not gonna touch so scum is whoever isn't there". I don't have the precision I need to do that right now.

I might expect GB to bring up the 'thread avoidance thing' here from Yuriko as Pie got but half a day before she got accused of it, but Yuriko's had nearly a week and I only see a push from GB on Yuriko from the PoE angle. It's not really relevant from the point of a read on Yuriko as they're scumreading Yuriko even without making that point but it makes the push on pie seem less sincere.

I am probably going to reread the whole game - I hope this gives me the clarity that I need to sort some of the people in that null-town area. This got more stream of consciousness than I wanted and as such is really disorganized but I wanted people to know that 1) I'm struggling right now and 2) why I feel that's the case.

But still, if not only for entropy's sake:
VOTE: Yuriko

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Wow did I leave a whole bunch of sentences unfinished and shit on that

goodnight

-b

[Gold Saucer]

yuriko is a decent policy lynch, but im not seeing any substance in a yuriko push fyi

I hear you but everyone is pretty much on their own wagon right now and that's making the gamestate extremely stale

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I am finally caught up!

Regfan - I'll be here tonight if you come back around. I have plans this weekend though so I'll be around sporadically.

Also, also guys it's official. I'm a doctor!!!!!!!

I am stupid tired, but I think I'm going to go for a run and put some of my thoughts together, so in a bit.

[Gold Saucer]

Sorry, I'm back. I was reminded mid-run that tonight was pub trivia night. I'm just getting back home. Let me get myself situated and then I can actually post and respond.

[Gold Saucer]

I am finally caught up!

Regfan - I'll be here tonight if you come back around. I have plans this weekend though so I'll be around sporadically.

Also, also guys it's official. I'm a doctor!!!!!!!

I am stupid tired, but I think I'm going to go for a run and put some of my thoughts together, so in a bit.

I'm here too if you want to talk about stuff!

Nothing major for me to add right now to the thread, but I wanted to talk about the couple of things I found townish from pieguyn:

1) The point where pieguyn started to read us as town (#286. When I read Regfan's #280, I felt like this was the "point-of-no-return" post where it's like, the townieness is so blatant you'd have to be straight up bad if town to misread our slot. Pieguyn reading that and coming to the realization just felt like the right thing at the right time and I don't think she'd have backed off at this point if scum (she'd have probably done it earlier or not at all).

2) This one's more minor, but her explanation for not having moved her vote off of us despite reading us as town in #635. I remember Regfan mentioned it to me on Skype as something he found problematic but I don't think we had ever mentioned it in the thread. I liked that she took the initiative there and her explanation makes sense.

I spent a good portion of my run today thinking about pie. I told Bork earlier that she's probably town, but that the way she's playing this game is do annoying and nonsensical at times that it's hard for me to feel great about that read. The only thing that really reads town is her emotion, but I recently nearly got fooled by malakittens throwing a fit in a way I thought was atypical for her as scum that I'm hesitant to go oh that's town.

Here's some problems I have:

1) she's done precious little scum hunting. The majority of her play this game is to shit on other peoples reads and scumhunting techniques, but when I think about what actual scumhunting she has done I'm coming up blank. I realize that she was put on the defensive maybe and this could color that and it's possible that I'm so annoyed with the way she's approaching this game that I'm missing something, but I don't read her based on how mad she gets but how she scum reads and town reads people that I'm having a hard time considering it feels in many instances she's trying to teach people about mafia theory and scumhunting rather than doing it.

2) she's done weird backbends to town read the ffery slot all while crapping on other people's town reads from the "meta-circle". Like the reasons she's town reading ffery is so flimsy it's not funny. In order for her to actuslly believe those are town tells for ffery, she has to believe that ffery is some scared damsel in distress when it comes to mafia. What pie is town reading ffery for is so well within her behavior as scum and how she would have to behave as svum to an extent in this player list anyway. The narrative that she's constructed for herself about how ffery and nacho would have had some pow-wow about how to treat her and oh she'd be too quaking in her boots to make a throwaway sort of agreement about overreaction is so terrible especially in light of the question to ffery about why she's townreading Bork, who was not very obvtown in tsles of you and played nothing like he is now, along with getting after regfan for not adequately rethinking his town reads is just so hypocritical.

3) I can't make sense of her okay this game and I hate that she ignored quil's question about if she really thought we'd all buy and allow without question a weak scum read from you guys.

This is frustrating because some of the frustration reads town, and the epiphany about differences in playstyles reads town, but I don't usually have a hard time following pie's thought process and I am here. In the normal game, I felt like pie and I worked pretty well together, even though she didn't listen to me on a couple things, by proxy through Trojan horse. I understood early exactly how she was seeing the game, and her reads and reasons usually feel a bit more well former than here. Oh I liked her reach out to you guys once she thought she recognized it being a playstyle difference, and I do think that her back off from you guys would have probably felt a bit orchestrated if she were scum here. I do think she would have backed off though.

Anyway, she's probably town, but I wouldn't bank the game on it.

Oh and what is kinda interesting is the anger about the not posting while being online. I don't get the anger over the accusation, and if she does somehow find it difficult to post in the first few pages of the game, why not just say that? Also, scum often have a hard time posting during rvs, so it's not unreasonable that was part of a push. What's kind of amusing is I started this game with a scum read on sangres because during the confirmation stage, ffery was logged in to sangres several times when I was browsing and since it was confirmation and no one was posting, I figured she was logged in to sangres to post in the scum qt. anyway that's one of those things I needed to get off my chest before I start dwelling on it.

More thoughts coming.

[Gold Saucer]

Ffery:

What was this about and what did you learn? You pretty much dropped it/didn't go anywhere with it.

Stuff during pregame that caught my eye.

- bbmolla's one post. he usually reaches out to Tammy if she's in the game. Didn't happen.

also, I pointed up your lack of reach-out to tammy, but a quick iso/ctl-f indicates she and bork haven't had anything to say about you so far. Do you feel like that's typical of town-tammy?

[Gold Saucer]

I suspect it was just browser refreshes but I swear to god if I have to worry about that kind of profile-scanning crap I'll make our online status invisible in future games.

I blame Tammy for this alt slip.

Um. Why not just say you were probably refreshing the page?

I don't get the "ohmigods how dare you notice I was online." If you don't want it noticed, make it private.

I didn't say anything about it earlier in case you were masons ^_^ with someone. I won't say how long I continued to hold that possible theory even knowing the setup.

[Gold Saucer]

I didn't like Quilfords early few posts (Was the one to bring it up to Empire initially), they felt very awkward but I don't agree with Empire at all about Quilfords Post 51 where he considers us being scum, I'm reading that as more of a town-tell than a scum-tell here.Also not seeing Empires town read on Yuriko at all so he'll have to explain that one to me when he's awake and sober. Similarly not seeing his Sangres town read, hoping it's based on more than just him liking the manner she brought up meta-checks earlier because that read as extremely weak and something easily fakeable to me.

About the only town read I'm semi-confident in at this point is Bork, like his "There's a few things I'm monitoring but don't want to butt in on" in Post 38 mirrors what I was doing at the time, also like his recent questioning with Quilford, comes across as him genuinely attempt to get a read there.

the bork town read jumped out at me. taking a laid-back/observing approach is relatively easy to fake as scum. and "genuinely attempting to get a read" is completely unsubstantiated (I'm interested in what, specifically, made you think this).

in general, I feel most of the positions in 63 were ass-backwards; I think sangres is likely town and don't really see how he's seeing bork's posts (which I think have been easy to fake for the most part) as more town.

I don't see how that'd make scumhunting more difficult or harder for her to do especially in an early game position like this where there wouldn't be any flips normally. Also it's not as if flips are hidden it's just a case of lynched town can still post which shouldn't impact scumhunting again? So yeah, I don't see her "worries" as genuine at all. I'm going to be p disappointing if that's what Empire is reading as town here.

I don't buy this stance either. it essentially amounted to him calling Yuriko scummy for being confused early game - the obvious hole here is that it's still relatively easy for a town player to be confused early game in a normal setup. thus, claiming that her being confused early game here because the setup is practically the same as a normal setup is disingenuous. I also think it's pretty fucking obvious Yuriko's confusion about treestumps comes from just not knowing how the tree stump role works and thus not realizing it doesn't actually hinder town here; that he'd miss this also comes off disingenuous.

Similarly Pie has been online a lot since our vote on him and the lack of in-thread reaction is making me feel more comfortable with our vote.

this is one of the most lol things I've seen and I don't believe that a player of your calibre would consider this a cogent argument.

consider this. was I actually posting in any other games in the time I was on this site? I was periodically browsing the site, but I was busy and it takes a lot more time effort to sit down and read/digest a game than it does to periodically browse the forums and make occasional posts here and there. the fact that I hadn't even formed any reads yet after game start adds to this (although strictly speaking I had the weak town read on ffery since her pregame posts, but, really); you were expecting me to come in here, with no reads, and do ... what, exactly?

it is also noted that your two primary scum reads entirely come down to "forced posts" and "being active elsewhere but not posting here" - and when you did have a play-based scum read, you dropped it immediately (and looking back at it again it was based mostly on forced posts). do you currently have any scum reads based on play?

p-edit:

@Pie - The quoted bit below reads like utter bullshit - We haven't "pushed" you at all, I've merely voted you saying that your posts read over-the-top (Something that both Ffyer and Muffin have agreed with) and mentioned that I dislike you being online but taking an age to get in here for content (Which did occur).

voting me is pretty fucking obviously a push. this is even more so the case when you have had said vote on me for the entire game and have continually laid out additional reasons for me being scum over the course of the game. so, how is that not constituted a "push"?

this is a semantic argument at best and disingenuous at worst.

Nacho - what, in this post, was muffin supposed to town read pieguy for? And why is it not likely for him to think it's an overreaction and scummy, especially considering he was concerned about pieguy before this post?

Ffery says you feel frustrated because you can't seem to explain what you mean so it makes sense. Explain it to me. I can usually follow your thought process and here I really can't. Do you not see anything town in muffin?

I'm not a big fan of the reasoning for the town read on us in Post 265 as, especially in my case, it felt like not all that special of a reason to town read us. I think I'm perfectly capable of reaching out to someone as scum, and I think you know that's within my range as scum. I think there are some better reasons and some other better but more subtle that pointed to us being town at that point.

There was something else I thought. Mostly I want to feel better about my read on yiu guys, but the read with reasoning on muffin is really throwing me off.

[Gold Saucer]

I suspect it was just browser refreshes but I swear to god if I have to worry about that kind of profile-scanning crap I'll make our online status invisible in future games.

I blame Tammy for this alt slip.

Um. Why not just say you were probably refreshing the page? I

I don't get the "ohmigods how dare you notice I was online." If you don't want it noticed, make it private.

I didn't say anything about it earlier in case you were masons ^_^ with someone. I won't say how long I continued to hold that possible theory even knowing the setup.

because I probably wasn't refreshing the page? I usually watch for new posts on my main account and switch to this browser when I want to make a post, unless a game is moving really fast. Most likely it happened when I launched the browser and restored previous session because I have a set of tabs I usually want open. Which I do sometimes 2 or 3 times a day.

I don't care about noticing it. I just dislike profile-watching on principle. It was driven home yet again that profile-watching/last-online info can be horribly misused in lieu of actual scumhunting in a recent newbie game I replaced into.

I have much better things to do on a Friday night than profile watch. I noticed it and it surprised me, which led to me noticing it again when next I went online.

Considering I waited until page 28 to even bring it up as something tangential I doubt very seriously you even believe it's in lieu of scumhunting, but yes, make it invisible if it bothers you that it's noticed.

[Gold Saucer]

Hell, even in her interactions with Muffin (just got to this part), #1 is a real thing that happens.

Does she tend to appease people who suspect her in her recent games as scum?

I've only seen her as scum in serum and steel. I had metad some other game before that but it was old and I can't remember what it was.

[Gold Saucer]

molla explained t

Ffery:

What was this about and what did you learn? You pretty much dropped it/didn't go anywhere with it.

Stuff during pregame that caught my eye.

- bbmolla's one post. he usually reaches out to Tammy if she's in the game. Didn't happen.

molla explained that he didn't notice you were in the game because he didn't recognize the hydra. he says he did reach out to you after he noticed you later.

Which he kinda did. So I can't take it much further. Also, I've liked some of his later posting.

Yes, he said hi to me after I said hi to him by reposting your question, but you also asked about me and not reaching out but you didn't follow up.

[Gold Saucer]

yuriko is a decent policy lynch, but im not seeing any substance in a yuriko push fyi

It's not really a policy kynch from my point of view. I'm having a really hard time believing there's two scum outside of yuko and I don't feel great about a scum read on anyone in the eight.

If she is town, I have some serious rethinking to do about the people in this game because other than paranoia dream teams, Im coming up short.

[Gold Saucer]

molla explained t

Ffery:

What was this about and what did you learn? You pretty much dropped it/didn't go anywhere with it.

Stuff during pregame that caught my eye.

- bbmolla's one post. he usually reaches out to Tammy if she's in the game. Didn't happen.

molla explained that he didn't notice you were in the game because he didn't recognize the hydra. he says he did reach out to you after he noticed you later.

Which he kinda did. So I can't take it much further. Also, I've liked some of his later posting.

Yes, he said hi to me after I said hi to him by reposting your question, but you also asked about me and not reaching out but you didn't follow up.

Because it's not a question I can really answer - at least not with the authority that Molla can - and because I was more concerned about Molla than about you at that point. If he had come back with something like "yeah, that is a little odd of Tammy", then something useful for reading in your interactions might have happened.

I set up exchanges like this fairly frequently, and they don't always lead anywhere I find particularly useful. Sometimes they do.

You're just going to have to get over the fact that I'm townreading bork and I'm not poking at you guys much as a result. After some flips that could change, but I'm more or less happy with you guys atm.

Hmm

Why would I not like you guys townreading us? That has nothing to do with why this caught my eye.

As soon as you posed the question about me, when I posted bucket, I told Bork that I couldn't figure out if you were trying to get reads or stir up stuff. It seemed premature to me to wonder about that kind of thing and I thought you could be trying to recreate the valid concern about falcon not really interacting with me in serum and steel.

Bb and I do usually interact in games, but it's hardly ever right at the very start in a game we both start in. It's almost always when at least one of us has a foot in the game and if town happens in a really organic way. Often one of us will feel lost or get paranoid of the other so push there or joke if we're in rvs at the same time or sometimes hell reaction test me.

If he had posted anything to me at the point you wondered about it, I'd have probably thought he was scum.

[Gold Saucer]

I swear to fuck Nacho, if you're buddying me right now I'm personally driving all the way to Chicago and punching you in the face. fortunately, I think you're just town.

I almost wish I was scum right now just so I could thoroughly enjoy watching as Regfan expends all his effort trying to lynch me and fails. ~

This post sounded kinda town.

I'm not sure she's this cheeky as scum.

(Though my scum dream team wonders if they're scum buddying each other. I don't really believe this, but it's crossed my mind.)

[Gold Saucer]

since nobody is jumping on quill with me atm

VOTE: Rancid Broderick Drake

What are your issues with rainbow dash?

[Gold Saucer]

I gotta tell you, being scum in this game would probably literally depress me

Having to deal with confirmed town nacho/regfan/ffery/empire/muffin/tammy etc. talking the entire game while I'm scum (depending on who my buddy would be obv)

like I'd just fucking quit

This felt town.

I feel pretty good at reading bb though so I think if he's scum I'll realize it sooner or later.

(Well forget that I thought bb was town in that last westeros game we played though >_>)

[Gold Saucer]

I agree with the town tell for soft spoken though I will say that any confusion over the setup could have happened pre-game though it didn't feel like it.

I have only one concern on the muffin slot and that was nati having us as yeah town I guess, but then only talking about Bork. I think I'd posted enough by that point for nati to either have a read on me or have something to say and she ignored me . I'm not exactly sure what to make of that though because she did interact with ffery, so it wasn't because she didn't want to interact with people who know her well. Bork and I have been leaning town there since early, so I might just be complsining because I'm a self-absorbed bitch who doesn't like to be ignored :/

[Gold Saucer]

You are all weird people... How are we supposed to find out who the arsonists are?

I originally liked this post because I thought that she was going to make a frustrated "you guys are hard to read grrr it's so frustrating because you're in a clique" type read or complaint ala Jessica in we the purple, and I was prepared to think that was town.

Gosh, in case no one noticed, I was on V/LA till yesterday and just came back. And I'm not sure how I can be assertive in a post that has only 5 pages with a setup that I'm absolutely unfamiliar with.

Concerning the post I made, I am concerned on both the play style and the set up. As you may have noticed, I barely played many games outside newbies (which is kind of my comfort zone) and I'm not used to dealing with hydras. Plus I am officially certified as someone that sucks at early game reads. I find it very difficult to find clues from people "fooling around" and rely more on logical deduction (which is not always accurate I admit).

As for the setup yes I am still confused :/ (below is me reasoning aloud to myself)

Spoiler:

so when trees are lynched they'll flip to become tree stumps (=certified townie) where they can still talk but cannot vote. Yet being able to participate in the discussion is still a very powerful tool IMO.

BUT
The firefighter won't turn into tree stump. He/ she will died upon being lynched. After that no one can prevent trees being targeted, and the firefighter will be unable to participate in further discussions. Plus he/ she cannot save himself/ herself at night so once he/ she claimed he/ she is pretty much dead. (well technically he/ she will still survive at least for one day if he/ she is not previously primed since the priming and igniting cannot occur on the same night)

talking about being dead, the arsonists can prime the trees/ tree stumps/ firefighter at night, yet no one (including the arsonists themselves) will know whether the priming was successful. I would expect this will be different from other mafia games in which there will be less nightkills (at least in the first nights) and therefore, less flips for us to get reads on.

why do I have a horrible feeling that this game is kinda biased towards mafia...

p.s. I am curious on mod's comment on which arsonists are themselves prone to being primed. Why would they do so given that they are partners in crime? Once they are dead their flip will show anyway so it won't fool us...

I hated this post though because it felt too much like "yeah, I really did think that here let me show you my work". It kinda reminded me of things along the lines of titus scanning her hand written notes to prove she was reading in adwd or tierce offering to scan her receipts to prove she was busy in abarat 2.

I don't doubt she had that thoight process, but again it could come from pregame, and there's really nothing here to suggest it didn't.

Still it would be awesome if she'd do something. If she is town somehow, I have need to fix the way Im thinking about this game.

[Gold Saucer]

Nati

[Gold Saucer]

Oh, and just because I wanna be able to point back to this in post-game and brag about my reads.

Calling a Yuriko-Nacho scum team right now.

If that's not the team, this post never happened and no one ever read it.

-Nati

This felt town.

There are other things that feel town, but this post really felt town.

[Gold Saucer]

Okay I'm going to stop calling everyone town. I do think quil looks town, but I want to read through the beginning of twin trap and marketplace three just for reference.

[Gold Saucer]

Although alternatively I guess nati could be ignoring me but interacting with ffery if scum with ffery :/. That would be a second svum dream team and would be nacho/muffin cross bussing each other while ffery and NATI look at each other going hrm shrug idk?

[Gold Saucer]

Can you summarize your read on RBD right now after all the interaction you guys have had in the past few days

I'm rereading your interaction a few days ago following Nacho's vote

Same question to Nacho when he gets here

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Every time I interact with zmuffin I start to doubt the read.

"the" read? what read?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

as in "what in specific are you doubting"?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

ffery in what ways do you think you piggy-backing Nacho's scum read on muffin is similar to the ways you piggy-backed muffin's read on mastin in serum and steel?

I get holding onto meta stuff, I really do, but RBD is an actual on the table lynch possibility. I really really don't think that holding your reads/cards to your chest is viable in this situation.

~~~

Nati - Sorry! I'm not going to flip out right now though. Everything is cool here. I haven't been on Skype all that much lately as I've been really busy, but you can talk to me too! Can you please tell me why you're town reading sangrias?

[Gold Saucer]

You don't find anything off with the way that nacho has been pushing your slot?

[Gold Saucer]

Please don't lynch me tammy!!!

You really haven't been reading if you think that we want to lynch you guys.

[Gold Saucer]

You don't find anything off with the way that nacho has been pushing your slot?

I really haven't read nacho's push on us mostly >.> He writes in a way I don't really understand!

You didn't have a hard time understanding him in FFX when we had him as scum the entire game and decided to push on him the day before we died.

I don't know what you mean by this.

You really haven't been reading if you think that we want to lynch you guys.

Also sleepy and stuff. I was a little confused because I seemed to remember bork was satisfied with us or something of that sentiment?[/quote]

Satisfied with what? We've both literally been trying to get Sangres to actually clarify their push on you and what they think, so I have no clue what you're referring to.

[Gold Saucer]

In trying to answer this, I'm finding myself rambling. Basically, I don't know much more about Nacho's reasons than you or anyone else besides Nacho himself. he thinks RBD is scum, and sort of like I would do if any player I respected came out with scumread out of the blue, I have been looking for why - what triggered the read, and looking at their play really hard for things that might be scum-indicative. I'm looking harder than I otherwise would at this point if I were playing strictly within my own head. And I've thrown into the thread those things that I've independently found questionable.

I think that's all I ever really wanted from you.

I know that I'm really going back and forth with you guys this game but 730 looks very, very town to me.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

which post might that be?

-nottammy

[Gold Saucer]

I care in the sense that I want to know if you're legitimately concerned about something or you're just trying to crack the foundation of (what I am interpreting as) the one universal townread in the game right now.

I don't think you or anyone else has a snowball's chance of getting us MLed this game so in that regard I am not considered other than for the noise it would make

-b

[Gold Saucer]

you're just trying to crack the foundation of (what I am interpreting as) the one universal townread in the game right now.

The need to do this is really is where this setup differs from others. we're not going to die overnight, which means we'll be here on D2, and possibly longer, and scum has to deal with that.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I don't think you or anyone else has a snowball's chance of getting us MLed this game so in that regard I am not

concerned

other than for the noise it would make

ebwop

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Ok.

I feel like I should let Tammy and you go straight at this rather than my acting as an entirely biased intermediary here, so that's what I'm going to do.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Best wishes to you and your family

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I hope everything goes well with your family Pie!

(pretty sure that was ffery. If it was nacho, that dork needs to respond to my text )

Recent scum meta for pie: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=750

Responding to your wall now!

[Gold Saucer]

I hope everything goes well with your family Pie!

(pretty sure that was ffery. If it was nacho, that dork needs to respond to my text )

Recent scum meta for pie: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=750

Responding to your wall now!

If I had to armchair meta pie here compared to the game that just ended, I would call that game "significantly deviant from what I am seeing this game".

I don't really trust my ability to meta in general and I can't really point to a time that it has really saved my play in a game where I couldn't find in-game things to talk about.

But for those who are wont to use meta as their first line of investigation (hi ffery) I would really like a "yes I agree / no I don't" from that, especially considering you were in the game.
-b

[Gold Saucer]

2) she's done weird backbends to town read the ffery slot all while crapping on other people's town reads from the "meta-circle". Like the reasons she's town reading ffery is so flimsy it's not funny. In order for her to actuslly believe those are town tells for ffery, she has to believe that ffery is some scared damsel in distress when it comes to mafia. What pie is town reading ffery for is so well within her behavior as scum and how she would have to behave as svum to an extent in this player list anyway.

this continues to completely miss the point I made - and I have the feeling it's being done intentionally in order to obfuscate - and I still don't really know where it's coming from

I get the point you made. I don't find it plausible or compelling.

let me try to explain it this way. if I was in a hydra with someone, and they had previously demonstrated concern when playing around someone else in the game as scum, I would not proceed to do something so obviously and transparently scummy as "make a herpaderp throwaway statement that's blatantly posturing for the consensus scum read" on them before my partner even shows up for the game. I wouldn't act, entirely without regard to what my hydra partner thinks, and put us in a position where said person they have trouble playing around ... is onto us before they even get into the fucking game. it makes no sense whatsoever. I would want to clarify with my partner what the most reasonable course of action might be before doing anything that might otherwise fuck up how they would usually play.

Um saying "I kinda agree" to someone who thinks a post sounds awkward is not transparently or obviously scummy. And considering you're town reading her for it, you don't even think it's scummy.

I have no idea why you would behave in a hydra that way, but that's not how people typically play in a hydra. They're not going to pow-wow; they're going to act as natural as they can independently. My problem is that you're constructing this narrative for how they would have potentially behaved in a way that makes no sense whatsoever for them to do. And it makes even less sense as a hydra, since Nacho, if he's as scared of you as you think, can come in here and just disagree with ffery.

You're also acting like you are the only person in this game. I get that he gave advice to Thor for how to deal with you; that doesn't mean that he expects ffery to treat you with kid gloves in a hydra with him where he can come in and control whatever narrative he wants to. There's also huge contextual differences from that normal. You were the only real strong town voice in that game; here you are not. They would not be playing this game solely to fool you; they would have to be playing this game to fool all of us - people who have not only experience with them but with each other. Therefore, their sole motivation this game is NOT to get you on their side because it doesn't matter in this game. They would have to contend not only with how we were reading them but how we're reading each other.

Since you've brought up cap com, I now remember that you did a similar type of back bending to town read not science due to the nonsensical way his other head was behaving, but this is an aspect of your scum hunting that doesn't make sense. People don't typically behave this way in hydras, not even as scum, especially people who have an established rapport because they hydra often.

So, yes, these are really flimsy reasons to town read the ffery slot and the fact that you were questioning town reads on us with the tag line "bork hasn't done anything unfakable yet" made it worse because you were town reading ffery for doing something she could and would do as scum and was really really takable to do as scum.

I elaborated on this to Regfan (who, surprise, didn't find it compelling), so it's possible she might have just missed it. but her insistence on this is something that makes me look sideways every time I try to read/reread it, and the thing is, it actually reminds me of what she did in the Capcom large theme. what happened in that game is that she had a "scum read" on notsci, who wound up flipping 3p lyncher. I had a really really big town read on notsci and defended it the entire D1 (they got lynched anyway). she spent a lot of time D1/D2 insisting that she was "right" about her scum read on notsci and that people should trust her over me as a result of it, when in reality it was functionally incorrect (3p isn't really "scum") and it was a load of bullshit she was pushing in order to discredit me.

the two situations aren't very similar, but I see a similar mindset here: insist on stuff despite it being explained already in order to discredit someone.

Nope, I didn't miss it. I didn't find it compelling either and in fact the continued explanation on it is part of what continues to concern me about you. Me disagreeing with you is not discrediting you. If it were, then you're play this entire game has been to discredit everyone you've been arguing with or about.

This is nothing like cap com and you either a) don't remember anything about that game or b) completely took away with the wrong thing.

So, let's recap shall we?

Capcom was a bastard game in which there were possible third parties and a potential cult. Therefore, some of my reads were actually my reads. I was suspicious of not science from the start, then he crumbed cop and I thought he was town, then he and his hydra partner were playing so monumentally scummy that I worked to drive through that lynch because I thought he was going to flip scum of some kind. Which he did, he was third party, which means he was not town and was therefore a form of scum. You using the 3rd party not scum point here against me is semantic bullshit. You were wrong about not science being town because you held on to tightly to that erroneous belief about hydra partners clearing stuff with their other heads before they do scummy shit too tightly and because you found the crumb that he was a cop and overlooked how obviously scummy his play was.

I didn't do anything to discredit you concerning not science that game. I just started demanding he get lynched. I might have told you you were wrong about him, which you were, but I didn't discredit you. Yes, I was insisting I was right about my scum read on not science day one and day two, which I was. And considering day two you weren't around because we killed you night one, how in the green hills is me insisting I was right on day two a discredit to you?

especially in light of the question to ffery about why she's townreading Bork, who was not very obvtown in tsles of you and played nothing like he is now, along with getting after regfan for not adequately rethinking his town reads is just so hypocritical.

I hated this because you "not being very obvtown" in Tales is a complete judgement call. yet she ignores that and uses it as a reason to push/discredit what I was thinking here.

I'd really like for you to stop using discredit/push when it obviously obviously is neither. Because let's be frank, the root of my problem is that YOU feel like the one discrediting everyone in the game (except nacho/ffery) with the angles you've been pushing.

Your using a game that I don't think bork was very obvtown in as support for you questioning a town read on us as backup for your "paranoia" of our slot.

This is pretty simple I think to understand.

she might have thought you weren't playing in a similar way from there to here. OK. so what? I'm pretty fucking sure I wasn't the only one who got completely snowed by you when you were in the game. why am I, specifically, the one who is in the wrong to think you were obvtown there?

You're the only one in this game who is using Tales of You as a reason to question a town read on our slot, so why wouldn't I wonder about it? Like this point just feels really weird.

Obviously you don't think he's playing the same as here or you would have responded when empire was meta-ing him and looked at that game. I thought you might interact with him about that since you were using that game as a reason to be worried about us.

this kind of thinking is something I saw a *lot* of in Capcom, as I said before. it reads as her stretching to find evidence that would support the viewpoint she wants to push - in this case, that my read on you is bad and that I'm insane for going about it in that way - when in reality it doesn't actually make sense.

Did you see a *lot* of it in cap com? Really?

In reality, I hate the reasons you have for town reading ffery. I don't find them compelling. I find them weak and unsubstantiated. I hated the way you went about it and think it was a flimsy basis for a read. That's not stretching to find evidence to support anything. That's me telling you your reasons are not valid. (I see you say that you later had more reasons to town read ffery and that's fine, but my problem was the original strength of the read for bad reasons which she could easily fake while simultaneously questioning a town read on our slot for not doing anything fakable. IE your read looked fake. Then my problem became the way you were getting after people for not questioning their own town reads enough while simultaneously not questioning your own town reads/doing any scum hunting.)

To try to compare this to cap com is to demonstrate that you have no understanding for how I think or approach games as scum or even what I was doing in that game.

3) I can't make sense of her okay this game and I hate that she ignored quil's question about if she really thought we'd all buy and allow without question a weak scum read from you guys.

this is false - I did answer the question (143). it's more an indication she didn't see it as opposed to anything alignment-relevant, but still, really?

no, I didn't see it because you cut off the rest of the quote that would have given me context. See, I find that problematic that you actually believed that and are holding to it. I don't believe you actually believe that in *this* player list regfan could make a weak push and we'd all just go oh lala yeah let's lynch pie. I just don't believe that.

What I was hoping I'd see as an answer to this was you stepping back and realizing that in this player list your assumption couldn't be more incorrect, and that he'd be more likely to get flak and questions from us than following. It's a bit unnerving and concerning that you didn't actually think about that and instead just went yep.

Oh and what is kinda interesting is the anger about the not posting while being online. I don't get the anger over the accusation, and if she does somehow find it difficult to post in the first few pages of the game, why not just say that?

I thought this was interesting. partly because it's entirely arbitrary (what is the point in me saying I was having trouble posting in the first few pages, and why *wouldn't* I say this as scum?), but partly because iirc, she has played on alts in the past because she got tired of people pulling "ur posting in other games but not here" on her and wanted to avoid it. so how the fuck does she not get why I'm angry over this?

Because I don't understand why you would be angry. You completely overreacted to a typical push. I don't know what you're trying to prove by saying why wouldn't you say it as scum when it makes no sense for you to react that way as town. I *can* see scum who are frustrated at being caught early and before doing anything lashing out though.

I didn't create alts because it made me angry to have the activity tell used on me. One of the reasons I created alts was so that I could play in several games and not be expected to be active in each of them each time I came online, but not because it made me angry. I know and expect that people are going to look at those things because they can be a genuine scum tell for some people. It's a bit annoying regardless of your alignment, and as the tell actually isn't all that relevant for me personally it can be annoying when people try to use it on me, but I understand it's going to be used and don't get angry about it. iirc the only times I've been really angry about it were a) years ago when Tierce tried to get me lynched for asking a question in one game and not posting in another game which had just opened up for day and I didn't even know if had opened up for day and b) when falcon used it against me in serum and steel when I was catching up in another game first and he accused me of posting up a storm elsewhere while ignoring that game when I'd literally only been on site for like an hour or so.

the other thing I disliked is that she completely dropped the interaction with me after 230. I would have expected her-town to see it and try to interact with me directly as opposed to taking an indirect approach in the way she's taking it here - *especially* if she had issues with the way I was approaching the game that she wanted to work out. that, in particular, doesn't seem like something that it makes sense to comment on in passing as opposed to directly.

overall, I want to be lenient about this bc as far as I can tell she just got back and read the game, but I am not a fan of where her thoughts on the whole me/GB situation stand at this point.

And now I'm going to pull your phrase. Why *wouldn't* I have interacted directly with it as scum? You've brought up cap com, you know full well that I'm capable of interacting with you directly about things as scum since I spent a lot of time interacting with you on your bro read so I'm missing the point of your expectations here.

But I've been gone for several days and haven't interacted with anyone. Empire pointed out some things that he was thinking about you and I interacted with that by giving my thoughts to him. Rempire and I have a pretty good understanding about how each other think and get reads, of course I'm going to interact with them on it.

But quite frankly, I'd probably not really directly interact with you anyway even if I was around. I don't understand your thought process or your approach this game, have been annoyed at some of the interactions I have read, and wouldn't find adding to it to be very productive.

[Gold Saucer]

Tammy, when are you going to interact with me?

I did!

Why'd you vote pie?

[Gold Saucer]

To be fair I'm not exactly scum reading you guys, I'm concerned reading you guys.

Bork has you as pretty solid town; I figure if you are I'll get there eventually.

[Gold Saucer]

hey ffery - why are you guys voting Pie?

[Gold Saucer]

Huh...it looks like I don't have plans for the weekend after all, so I'm going to grab some wine and something for dinner in a bit and see if I can figure out who's in our blindspot. (Unless I can find somehow find someone without weekend plans.)

bork is reading sangres as pretty strong town and thinks that pie and gentleman are town as well. We still think that yuko is a good lynch as we can't really see two scum in the other seven, so.

[Gold Saucer]

Prod dodge; busy weekend.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Heh, I was coming in here to make that post.

I have some work to do, but I'll try to get caught up in a while.

[Gold Saucer]

Okay now it does feel like the game is stalling.

I need to reread to see if I can find my blindspot, and I need to look back at a couple quilford games. I'll probably do that tomorrow as I'm super tired right now and am going to crash I think.

[Gold Saucer]

My "what now?" question got an answer!

There are a ton of questions for my slot atm, but they're very specifically not questions for me.

Unlike Nacho, I feel like there's an inevitability to Yuriko getting lynched today. I'd want for other stuff to happen first, and I think most players aren't willing to end the day yet, even if they're voting Yuriko, but once inevitability locks in and becomes momentum, the gamestate is different. I can't count the number of times I've supported the lynch of a relatively unknown and new-ish looking player whose posts look scummy and they flipped town, so I can grok Nacho pushing for people to keep looking today in ways they might not until day 2 if we settle on Yuriko as early as it looked like we would.

Do you have a harder scumread on any other player? I'm kind of hitting my end of D1 slump which is, in this case, stacking with several off-site distractions right now, but I don't know who else I'd really want to be running up right now with any remote amount of surety; most of the people in this game have been sitting on their own wagons for the majority of the day which is stymying potential interactions.

If you've got a different direction you want to go, I don't know that you've made that really clear enough right now (I am reading Nacho as the one who has moved your last two votes -- let me know if that's wrong but I don't think it is, and that's got its own set of issues [namely the lack of any real explanation other than he wants a flip that isn't Yuriko])

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I'm making VERY slow progress here. After reading the first 6 pages for three times, I think pie and GB are possibly both town as I can see both coming from town and the

sensible scum approach would not to be arguing about things again and again.

Quilford also seemed town because he was asking genuine questions and trying to end the fight; scum would have wanted it to go on and on I suppose.

RBD started out difficult to read because they're just doing weird things like claiming PGO and claiming to be different persons while the posts are all from the same person (which is very confusing) so I probably need to read more posts to determine my read on them.

These are the only read I have up till page 6. I'm reading so slowly I'm hating myself. I also don't like it when I don't understand the first few pages where everyone is making references to meta and playstyle. (P-edit: when I say I don't like it I mean because I'm unable to check whether the claims are genuine and the meta logic is hard to understand out of context)

What is inherently in scum's best interest about acquiescing in an argument rather than continuing it?

Why not just skip the stuff about meta and move on to something that actually does strike you as worth talking about if you're not getting anything from the early pages rather than declare yourself blocked from proceeding?
I understand that this is a game that can only demand a certain amount of free time from people, but I really feel that being "up to page 6" 10 days into the game is an unacceptable level of engagement at this point in the game especially with the wagons as they are. Even if reading up is killing you, no one is requiring you to read the whole game before you're allowed to interact with anyone. There is plenty of non-meta stuff going on here - how do you feel about any of it?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Without meta, there's a lot I don't like about his play, most if not all of which has been brought up by other players.

Can you be more specific? I'd strongly prefer your explicit stance on the slot even if it's just agreeing with things other people say.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

It doesn't actually presuppose anything of the sort? I hope my explanation above of what I was trying to convey by use of the word 'tryhard' clears up your confusion.

it does, yeah

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Hey bork hey hey bork

ya

-b

[Gold Saucer]

The first thing that bothered me was that I feel he was slow to get serious about the game. I thought this could be because he knows the player list really well and was enjoying the early game and wasn't in a hurry to get to the serious lynching and killing. But, as the game has progressed, it's come out here and there that most players don't know him well as a player and don't have a ton of experiential meta with him. Nor he with them.

is this a meta thing for quilford?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I liked that someone reacted to Soft-spoken's early posts because I hoped the way Ss engaged with it would give me some data for reading him. Ss didn't react as I kinda expected, but has been really, really town in other ways. The only thing that bugs me a little is the way he kinda lags, reacting to stuff from 2-3 days earlier, but it does track with his availability to play. I mention this because to me, it's just about the only thing that still gives me any pause about Ss at this point, Quil is still scumreading him, and in fact is the only player voting him, despite making noises about his read softening.

This really doesn't read like anything resembling a ringing endorsement.

And you feel good about the vote from Nacho?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Not really. he's a low-ish meta priority for me because I know Nacho has played with him more.

Do you find not getting serious quick enough is objectively scummy overall in your experience?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Not really. he's a low-ish meta priority for me because I know Nacho has played with him more.

Do you find not getting serious quick enough is objectively scummy overall in your experience?

-b

depends on context and timing.

Someone basically making their entrance on page 10 of a fast moving game and doing so with an rvs-esque post bothers me, but I'm accustomed to it. rvs is sort of an entitlement to some players. Floating along in the game, passing up stuff to jump on looks objectively scummy to me.

Quil and bbmolla both were in that mode for a while. I liked the way molla finally engaged when he engaged more than I like the way Quil did.

I am having trouble relating with a lot of what you're saying in general this game because you're not being specific enough.
Did quil actually do any of the underlined? How did you like how molla engaged?

I kind of hate the fact that I feel obligated to constantly grill you about this stuff as it's really flying in the face of several things I was really comfortable about from you in particular (Nacho I am having no real luck deciphering this game) and I am constantly feeling unsure how to resolve my read on your slot

-b

[Gold Saucer]

bork, I think you know that the early phase of day 1 is one of the most enjoyable aspects of mafia to me. It's also a part of the game where some of my most enduring reads form.

I agree with all of this, but I am at the point where I am a little worried about the potential to get blindsided by someone that I am purely townreading due to tone/meta and am feeling the need to both keep you honest and align in analysis once I've gotten over that hurdle. The latter objective in particular feels a long way off
-b

[Gold Saucer]

I don't have a whole lot to say. i didn't get around to meeting quilford. I'd probably be more on top of that, but seeing as how we'll still be here tomorrow, it doesnt' really matter.

Also I feel more strongly about my gentleman town read so that's nice. That's just about where I'm at. I'll try to sit down with this and do something after company leaves tomorrow though!

[Gold Saucer]

Actually regpire you guys had to actually read quil not to long ago for tm. Are there any comparisons here?

[Gold Saucer]

Oh he has four pages of posts. I'll do a comparison later after I finish and then check out a scum game.

[Gold Saucer]

I like pretty much everything about the two posts above me

christ that could've made me waste a lot less time early game

(soft-spoken, sangres)
Is my current I-will-not-consent-to-lynch pool (which I just blanked and am going to attempt to re-add to, but I don't see myself changing my mind on either of these slots before end of day)

-b

[Gold Saucer]

If I'm reading people honestly, I have townreads of varying degrees on everyone except for Yuriko. This means I am reading the game wrong. The only thing flipping Yuriko tells me is if I'm reading the game wrong (yay), or if I'm reading the game super super wrong (boo). Saying that I am not willing to lynch Yuriko today or that I don't want to lynch Yuriko today is probably being overdramatic, I do think she's the likeliest to flip scum but I'm not ready to flip her right now, especially since a Yuriko townflip would honestly just break me.

I was thinking about this before I went to bed and I get it.

The gamestate is what I would call 'Pleasant' write now in that people are enjoy playing with people they know and the majority of interactions (if yuriko is indeed scum) have been town on town

And no one really wants to see that deteriorate

But I think you're right, it's coming high time to break up this arrangement.

I just tried to rank the 5 players that aren't (sangres/ss/yuriko) since those are the players I am most sorted on
(so bbmolla, gb, pie, rbd, quil) in order from town to scum and the only one I was able to do consistently every time was pie on top.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

bbmolla I haven't seen anything I've particularly

disliked

yet, fwiw

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Hey bork hey hey bork

You never mentioned what you wanted

-b

[Gold Saucer]

a) If he's scum with someone like Yuriko in a playerlist like this attempting to get town-read via a big "Attack" like that would be optimal play

Not addressing the validity of the point you're making itself (which I want to get to in a subsequent post) I think you're really flirting with begging the question by assuming scum and then attributing motivation as if it explains why she would do this if she were scum, not why she is necessarily scum for lashing out at you, or why it is significantly unlikely that it would have come from town. Especially since to me there's a really obvious potential non-alignment indicative response [player dependent too, as Nacho I think would say this is possibly a towntell from pie personally but I don't want to even bring that into this] here: she was simply overreacting and lashing out at being called scum for what she perceived as shit reasons.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I also don't understand how you can quantify any likelihood to "with the potential of Yuriko as the partner (which is also a pre-flip connection but one that you're at least being consistent about) pie-scum is more likely to 1) respond to an attack against her? 2) be aggressive in general 3) fake an emotional response

I don't know why "attack" is even in quotes here; "attacking" people is part of the game. "Big attacks" are very often part of the game.

I don't see how you can honestly and conscientiously make that point.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

am i wrong or is gold saucer not on anyone's "im not going to vote this person" list

last I checked the utter opposite of this was true

unless you're scumreading me and have just failed to bring it up thus far (if so, I am totes all ears)

the only person who I've seen leverage any kind of paranoia on us was pie and she was dissuaded pretty quickly

-b

[Gold Saucer]

yes; If you're the ff I want to know with enough time to spare to reevaluate

we've got like what, 2 days left?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

UNVOTE:

not-ccing

Can everyone please explicitly CC or not CC?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

oh thank fuck

VOTE: yuriko

I'm p sure I typed to tammy at some point that I thought bbmolla was the FF because of that one post about yuriko

and if I didn't i meant to so neener neener

-b

[Gold Saucer]

haha i totally did

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Honestly in this setup (super weak ass PR) that isn't really all that bad of a thing

-b

[Gold Saucer]

My initial "I haven't really gone back and read shit at all" reaction is that GB looks a little bad for maintaining a scumread on Yuriko p much the whole game and never jumping on it, even after RBD and BBMolla did (and eventually me too), especially considering they weren't getting anything about of being on pie at that point, pressurewise or sheepwise

-b

[Gold Saucer]

@Bork - I don't really understand either of your Post 964 or Post 965, pretty much my point is that Nachos saying that he thinks Pies reaction and response towards us is a town-tell for the reason that he thinks it's too big a 'risk' for Pie to do as scum (The risk being it garners attention towards him and leaves us as an 'enemy' of him). I'm saying that if Pies scum with someone like Yuriko (And look; Yurikos scum, shock, horror!) then he has a lot of motivation to make a post like that as scum; motivation being that we'd have nailed the scum team very early on and that almost everyone was already on the right track at that point, doing something to de-credit us while subsequently hoping to be town-read via the reaction would be optimal play. What about that do you disagree with/don't understand?

I mean I read your post, I know what you're saying and I'm not claiming I don't understand a thing.

There are two different kinds of statements here:

1) I think Pie would do X as scum.
2) I think Pie is scum because she did X.

I am saying that making a statement in the form of 1) is fallacious - you haven't attributed anything as to why she would do X as scum makes her

more likely

to be scum than not, because you

haven't even addressed her doing/not doing such a thing as town.

Saying "I think a person might do X as scum" doesn't give you license to say "I think a person is scum because they did X" unless you don't think they'd do it as town and you've made no such claim.

The Yuriko thing is just me stating that I have no idea what she has to do with this. I still don't.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Bork, seriously, talk to your other head about my slot. That's all I'm going to say.

Ok.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Nachos saying that he thinks Pies reaction and response towards us is a town-tell for the reason that he thinks it's too big a 'risk' for Pie to do as scum

Also I'll go back and look but that wasn't my internal impression of what Nacho was saying. I thought he thinks it's a towntell for pie cause of pie-specific reasons

-b

[Gold Saucer]

And I've constantly stated that I find it hard to believe that the lines that Pie was pushing forward, the strength of his read and his aggressive is something I have difficulty seeing from town, constantly so you saying I've never mentioned that is god damn awful by you.

Dude, chill. I'm just trying to work some shit out and if you see something that I've obviously just missed just point me at it instead of calling my play awful

-b

[Gold Saucer]

(And Yurikos relevance to this is quite simple and obvious and something I thought I made clear; If it's a Pie+Yuriko scum-team then all of the easy to read players/hydras ect. are town and scum are instantly in a bad position, everyone was FoSing one of Pie/Yuriko at the time of Pies first post and we'd scum read the both of them, if the scum team is Pie+Yuriko there then scum are in a really really really bad position in which case making a huge aggressive push back on us to de-credit us and hope to be town-read via it makes a LOT of sense)

the partner would have to presuppose that Yuriko was just gonna pretty much curl up and die from the start and that's not something that was even remotely obvious to me was going to happen at that point in the game

-b

[Gold Saucer]

And I've constantly stated that I find it hard to believe that the lines that Pie was pushing forward, the strength of his read and his aggressive is something I have difficulty seeing from town, constantly so you saying I've never mentioned that is god damn awful by you

Ok, let me try again.

The 'strength of the read' stuff (which I've really felt is the linchpin of what you've been saying) I am willing to accept as an argument even if I think it's semantic and subjective and therefore hard to really both convey from your end and empathize with on mine.

Aggressiveness I strongly feel is null; town and scum players can get aggressive from even being mentioned as being scumread. The worse (in the target's mind) the reasons are possibly even the greater the reaction.

Like my gut even wants to townread you from blowing up at me like this because you're more likely to just get pissed that I don't like your ideas as town than you are as scum.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

the partner would have to presuppose that Yuriko was just gonna pretty much curl up and die from the start and that's not something that was even remotely obvious to me was going to happen at that point in the game

-b

I'm not Regfan but, um, seriously? That would have been obvious to me in the pre-game, let alone after her initial posts.

Like, think about it, you're scum in a game with four hydras that include transparently town players like myself, Regfan, Tammy, ffery, etc and your partner is a newbie named YurikoJasmine. How do you not think she's going to fold immediately?

Uh, I don't feel like I understand anything about someone's personality merely from the fact that they're new to the site (and she really isn't, she just doesn't play much)

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I'm still going through Yuriko's games but I already found some really neat stuff that I am holding onto until she dives into this game a bit more. One thing I do want to point out though is that she seemed to have absolutely no problem doing some good old fashioned, low information D1 scumhunting as both alignments so I don't really understand where her complaints about the setup re: inability to scumhunt are coming from.

I mean you even said this; it's not like she just literally has no idea how to play or has a history of clamming up as scum

I think we're kind of getting away from anything pertinent with this

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Sure, join date can be deceptive but you are damn well going to make assumptions about her abilities based on that fact that she seems like a fish out of water in this playerlist. Example: when I was scum in the TM Vanilla Nightless, I made a bunch of assumptions about the quality of SilverWolf's scum play (they were not favorable, to say the least) despite the fact that I had never even heard of her before that game. I think that if pieguyn were scum with Yuriko, it would lead to pieguyn making the same assumptions.

I'm honestly not sure I'd have reacted in Yuriko-scum-partner's place in that manner at start of game; I have no idea what pie would have done.

I do think I see the spirit of where you're coming from: if, as scum, I saw my team starting to be subtly pushed up against the ropes because of a really strong town, even if they hadn't narrowed us down yet, I might do something drastic. I think that has less to do with Yuriko and more to do with the fact that the town is all the people that aren't Yuriko, but I concede it. I don't know that I agree that it's more likely than Pie just getting bent out of shape yet, but I'll do my best to figure that out tonight.

Anyway I've already skyped Tammy about you in particular but we'll (hopefully) do some co-rereading overnight.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

ALSO I JUST GOT A JOB INTERVIEW FOR A PLACE UP IN MADISON, FUCK YES FUCK YES FUCK YES

!

where?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I met him recently but I forgot where he said he worked, if he even mentioned it

-b

[Gold Saucer]

in other news, I want to say RBD is likely town off of Yuriko's read on them. I realize it's objectively fakeable, but I think that kind of read coming from newb-scum is more likely to be on a townie than a scum partner - she's not pointing out problems with their actual posts because she has trouble finding legitimate angles of attack to push on them and doesn't want to risk tripping over herself making a bullshit push. I'm not sure about this, though.

I think I agree; would've been stronger if she'd voted though

-b

[Gold Saucer]

ALSO I JUST GOT A JOB INTERVIEW FOR A PLACE UP IN MADISON, FUCK YES FUCK YES FUCK YES

yesyesyes I will cross every single one of my fingers. It will be so awesome if you're so close!

I just super skimmed, but will read for real in a bit if the threads not locked, otherwise I'll just talk to Bork but since we'll definitely be here tomorrow I feel less urgency about it. And the night phase will give me some time to read through Quil's meta that empire linked.

I am going to Milwaukee for summerfest this weekend, so I probably won't be around until Monday.

[Gold Saucer]

No one believes me? I guess I need to read super fast and give my reads before I die today.

You've not exactly put yourself in a position to be believed

The motivation for scum-Yuriko to draw out town-bbmolla is obvious and I won't go into it

I am

slightly

paranoid that, in this particular setup, now that I've thought about it a little, there IS potential scum motivation for scum-bbmolla to CC town-yuriko to ensure we LYNCH the firefighter vs having to prime them, and that's in the certainty on their end that they get to have their LyLo exactly when they think they will - otherwise they have no idea who town-yuriko has protected from night to night unless they waste N2 detonating only her, which is one less kill than they get to use if they instead get the firefighter lynched and can just spam prime on whoever the rest of the game.

They also have to definitively give up one of their members to do it, which is obviously a risky proposition.

I don't think it's a big enough concern for me to change my course of action and worse case scenario we go into D3 6-1; best case scenario this crackpot hypothesis is wrong and we go into D2 7-1

-b

[Gold Saucer]

for certain values of "we", sure

-b

[Gold Saucer]

i just did the math and its actually CCing the FF and winning the cc is not a bad position for scum to be in if molla was scum and quil wasnt.


but thats just paranoia speaking.


yuriko is coming out with some rather strange fos's (me/gold) that arnt substantiated.

Why are my FoS strange?

Because you're attacking the two most uniformly townread slots in the game and have given no reasoning nor indication that you've read past page 6 or wherever you were

-b

p-edit: cheers

[Gold Saucer]

assuming that's a scumclaim too

-b

[Gold Saucer]

1) Your Bork townread was too strong.
I agree that your Bork townread was too strong. Bork, in person and on forum, has one of the most natural scumgames I've seen because of how well his personality meshes with mafia as a game. He approaches the game in the way where it feels like he's taking it apart, but he can and does fake it very effortlessly as scum. The part that is unreasonable is Pie expecting you to know better, which I don't think is unreasonable because of the whole celebrity thing.

This is an interesting introspection, to say the least. I don't know that I've ever heard anyone describe my play outside of the context of a single game before other than "towns fucking harder than anyone"

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Although you, I think better than most, know exactly what I find difficult about playing scum

and why tales of you was such a miserable experience for me

even outside of angrypigeon attempting to constantly throw me off balance (which I still think had the worst effect on me considering he was on my team)

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Vote: Gold Saucer

We did some interaction reading earlier which points heavily towards them being scum. I will be posting a big wall case on them later.

- Empire

Anyway I did talk to Tammy and she says that she's considerably solid on you guys, and frankly I like the fact that you were confident enough that she was going to say that without being really sure of what she thought of you guys (I control + f'd gb/empire/regfan and looked at all the stuff she had to say about you guys, and while none of it was bad I don't think it painted a necessarily clear picture of how she felt about your slot; if you'd known she was currently very confident about you being town due to stuff she said in thread I'd probably care about this a lot less); I think it's more likely you're just town than really confident about your ability to manipulate Tammy.

This kinda reminds me a bit of me-Nacho interactions when I am town and possibly getting attacked by others if you transpose that onto the you-Tammy interaction here

-b

[Gold Saucer]

i want to hear if anyone else makes anything of it before i divulge

You gotta take into account overall posting volume if you're going to go anywhere with this

-b

[Gold Saucer]

noted.

something else id like to float around. what do you think possible motivations from yuriko fosing both of us when her lynch was near confirmed.

Considering that I can only speculate on this at this point:

I think you're town here, but it kinda doesn't matter: she had a particular notion about what she thought would be the most effective angle of WIFOM here, and I am guessing that her hope is to make two town look like one town one scum. She could have gone over that in her head or used random.org and picked the top two names for all I know considering she talked about both of our slots precisely dick before that point.

It doesn't appear to be a last attempt at fighting her lynch, at least.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

since pie thinks that is a mark of being town

That's not really what I took from what Pie said.

I think Pie is trying to say that it's generally easy to conf-bias a somewhat legitimate case on a scummate, so the truly pants on head / empty cases coming from scum are more likely to be aimed at town.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

since pie thinks that is a mark of being town

empty cases coming from scum are more likely to be aimed at town.

ummm... how is that different than how i interpenetrated what she said? pies non-existent cases on us were even worse

I don't really call what Yuriko did at the last minute when she was on the way to the gallows a 'push' as much as a 'last minute attempt at obfuscation' and am totally discounting it as evidence of anything because of how extremely self-conscious she would have to have been by then

-b

[Gold Saucer]

hard-busing isnt required to blend. when someone is that bad its way too easy to be neutral, or say they are scummy without pushing on them.i probably wouldnt hard-bus yuriko there as scum, but i sure as hell wouldnt town read her in case that was perceived as buddying

If I were pieguy scum I probably would have done something other than succumb to where everyone else was going with the PoEing the huge voices out of the scum pool. Pie looked to be possibly gearing up to engage me more.

But then some of the stuff I didn't like about Pie came from early game (e.g. a totally null read on my slot due to a burden of proficiency argument after I had contributed a considerable amount to the game. I'm not interested in fakeable vs. unfakeable -- some things are probably unfakeable and I would bet considerable money I don't do any of them in the majority of my town games)

Aside: my one niggle from Nacho early on is how he treated my scumgame as top-ish tier when I had like one above average scumgame that I ended up having to replace out of because it was making me miserable to play. I don't really want to go back to Sangres suspicion I really do think I have them sorted.

Pie's opening here also reminded me a little of her opening in Viscon Crossroads, where she attacked me early for pretty much no reason and then ignored me the rest of the game.

Nacho's 1035 really fucking resonates with me though and I have to cut this short for the moment cause I'm gonna play some heroes and I haven't really drawn a conclusion yet just rambled instead and I don't even know what conclusion I would draw yet.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Empire - I skimmed through that scum game of quilford's while out for a walk, and I see what you mean by tone. He does attempt some superficial scum hunting and tried to look like a good t, which is different than I thought his scum game was. I was remembering marketplace and adwd and I think he bailed on both his hydra partners there so I thought his scum game was complete lurkdom.

But he also just doesn't really fit his town game from team mafia. Did you guys have a town game that you looked at as I can imagine team mafia having an impact on tone as well.

Though he looks like he's just straight up trolling at this point, so maybe he's just giving up and I don't need to read through it and fret about any of the rest of you guys?

[Gold Saucer]

ebwop t = townie.

[Gold Saucer]

I have some grading and stuff I have to get to before I can really read today's posts or look back and do any rereading, so that probably won't happen until tomorrow.

[Gold Saucer]

VOTE: gold saucer

Yeah well that's like...wait what?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

heroes of the storm? ive been meaning to try that since ive played every other moba in existence and blizzard was always my fav producer.

it's p cool and i've played no mobas since dota 1

-b

[Gold Saucer]

Was kinda hoping people were still around.

I can't gamesolve right now; I have enough niggles about the majority of the playerlist (BBMolla, Sangres, Soft-Spoken is my do-not-touch list; I feel good about this list and I if anyone has any issues with it please by all means challenge me on it)

I'm trying to find reasons to lock in any of the remaining four.
I don't know how to really solve this game (by way of a strong scumread) at this point in meaningful interactions with flipped scum or by motivational tells.

I don't think that I'm willing to give RBD any towncred for starting the Yuriko wagon in this particular case - there was no real way to know how much traction that was going to get considering the push happened in the infancy of the game.
I want X-men Nati back.

I don't know that rereading gb vs pie for the fifteenth time is going to really get me anywhere. GB responded well to my probe at the end of the day. Tammy says they're town with bravado even if she hasn't explained it in detail over skype.

I have said a lot about pie and find that read festering. Pie's done plenty of things that have pulled me in both directions. I don't know that I'd be capable of doing the stuff Nacho brings up in 1035. I find this to be a touchy subject to broach because I feel like it would be somewhat unethical if it did come from scum (I had similar mental issues in micro 188 with Mala) and that is simply a conversation I do not want to have, ever again, in a mafia game with someone. If by even bringing this up it offends I apologize but I don't know really how to get past it without at least acknowledging that I'm thinking it. I think it's legitimate and coming from town. Otherwise awaiting additional GB thoughts.

I don't know what Quilford's on about; suppose I'll find out soon enough. I actually had a lot of townhits on quilford early on where he voiced sentiments that matched my thoughts on gb vs pie (two posts were 129 and then 298 where sangres was being a pie apologist had me internally nodding my head).
Awaiting imminent interaction with me.

That's where I'm at. Don't really know where Tammy's at.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

honestly dude... appealing emotionally to friends its the must have tool in scum-play. friends know your meta and thus have an "unfair"advantage on you... if if you have their sympathy its actually fair game.

im not bringing this up because i want to make a pie-scum case... but this is a game of lies and manipulation. the only thing i saw to be questionable ethically in pies post was linking that whole post to an "outside game influence" like theme. IMO anything that is ethically questionable as scum should be viewed the same way as town, or else you give too many ways for people to conf-town themselves. talking about possibly replacing out... thats the only questionable part there... and i would say the same to pie-town and pie-scum.

No, you're right - anyone talking about replacing out

with the express purpose of being townread

is potentially playing unethically.

I don't think that's what Pie was doing here; I think she was just playing with her heart on her sleeve.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

tbh, asking for a CC on yuriko was probably playing it unnecessarily safe but whatever. The way that claim came out was bad enough

You think we should have just hammered her after the claim?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

so Nacho

when you get a chance, talk to me about

BBM

This was largely ignored because of the claim stuff happening at the time, but did you have a scum read on bbMolla at this point?

This makes me even more think Pie is town -- this came out right after the claim and if Pie knew Yuriko was just going to immediately get smacked down by someone else (doesn't strictly matter whether it was BBMolla or not, but it does speak to picking up early game PR softs by Pie) I don't see why she would have even started down this road.

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I don't think that's why pieguy was asking about bbMolla and I don't get that impression at all (unless you just mean pieguy could have got away with not asking any questions? That particular line of questioning was pretty neutral, though). Also would have rathered you kept that comment to yourself for the time being, but whatever.

I mean I'll let pie answer as to what she was asking about; I don't really think I'm poisoning the well here

-b