512: Bojack Horseman Season 2 (Over)

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/confirm

VOTE: Kaboose

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My vote wasn't RVS just in case anyone's unclear.

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Post 22. I wanted to see if anyone could guess why I voted him before elaborating.

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I could maybe see it being "jumpy" although it's not what I had in mind.

@ Wisdom, if I wanted to spill my reasons just yet, I probably would have typed it up along with the post. I want to see what Kaboose does when he returns which would confirm or weaken my suspicion. Do you disagree? Also, is your push to wagon ETL RVS-based?

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I think wingback might be town. also maybe Firebringer. maybe.

I think Firebringer is likely town if I'm interpreting his posts correctly. If your reason is anywhere close to mine, you should also see why I have a problem with Kaboose's rolefishing accusation.

In general, how likely is it for mods on this forum to provide safe fake-claims in themed games? I've seen a lot of variation across various forums.

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I think wingback might be town. also maybe Firebringer. maybe.

I think Firebringer is likely town if I'm interpreting his posts correctly. If your reason is anywhere close to mine, you should also see why I have a problem with Kaboose's rolefishing accusation.

In general, how likely is it for mods on this forum to provide safe fake-claims in themed games? I've seen a lot of variation across various forums.

In general quite likely, thoughit does vary by moderator. I've played a few AP games, but have never drawn scum so I can't say for sure. IIRC ETL has been scum in one of his games. She could say pretty definitively.

You made no comment on the other part of my post. Was that intentional?

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@ ETL, what's your read on Wisdom? I'm confused about whether you have an actual scumread there.

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Here's what rubbed me the wrong way about Kaboose's post:

Firebringer made a post where he soft-claimed Bojack. As far as I know, Bojack is the only one who was in a 90s TV show. Firebringer then asked people if they were in a 90s TV show.

a) Kaboose if town could have caught on to the reference and thought Firebringer was fishing for Bojack. If Kaboose understood the reference, he would also notice that Fire was soft-claiming Bojack himself so a rolefishing accusation there doesn't make any sense - you can't fish for your own flavor character.

b) The other option which was my initial gut-reaction was that Kaboose completely missed the reference to Bojack and was just stretching to make an accusation. A lot of the time, I see awkward scum accusing people in RVS to appear pro-town and make it seem like they are contributing something. The fact that Kaboose never asked Firebringer any follow-up questions or tried to develop a read on him makes me think his initial accusation was just a throwaway comment.

Post 56 doesn't do anything to change my opinion of him.

As a caveat, I may be wrong about Firebringer softclaiming Bojack but it doesn't affect my Kaboose read.

Not especially, don't think wagoning her would give us more info. We've seen the reactions we need. More votes would mean more of the same.

Would rather wagon

VOTE: Firebringer

If you find ETL scummy, why vote Firebringer over ETL? I don't follow what you mean by "seen the reactions we need" so expand on that. And what's your read on Firebringer?

I like wisdom playstyle but I kinda think could be scum given his thoughts just on flavor for this theme.
VOTE: Wisdom

What's the scum motive to lie about thoughts on flavor?

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@ AngryPidgeon

, do we have a deadline? If so can you include a countdown in the votecounts?

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Did not realize that there are multiple people on 90s shows. It nullifies one of my reasons to suspect Kaboose.

I still want an explanation from Kaboose for: a) The complete lack of reaction to my vote, and b) no follow-up on Firebringer. Also want the Wisdom scumread explained.

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@ Firebringer, can you expound on why you think scum would lie about flavor? In my experience, those are the type of things scum like telling the truth about.

@ Sekai, explain your townread on Firebringer.

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@ Fire, I understand your thoughts on flavor. I don't understand your scumread on Wisdom. He responded to my question about fake-claims by saying that if the scum flavor is obvious, then the mod would supply town flavored claims.

You responded to him in Post 72 saying that you don't think there's flavor that would be obvious scum in this theme and voted him. I don't understand what it was that you found scummy and why.

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i actually have a pretty huge problem with Wisdom's posts.

Then why did you never vote him?

etl might also be town

Is this an independent read or a corollary to your Wisdom scumread?

i just iso'd polar. not liking what I see.

Which is what exactly?

wisdom is still on my watchlist. fear not, valiant reader!

Was there something Wisdom said that made you decide to ISO Polar and switch your vote? It seemed like you two were discussing a past game and you decided to ISO Polar out of the blue and vote them. Why Polar as opposed to anyone else?

Before I catch up, my Wisdom thing is that, he normally seems methodical to me in his posts. And these posts seem to have more emotion and not like a good emotion but just a weird feeling to them. Like he's being snarky or cheeky or something. I don't know, I just read some of them and got that vibe.

According to Wisdom (which you don't deny), you only played with him when he was scum where you say he was methodical. So, him being more emotional here is a deviation from that and should point towards town. If you were simply talking about the emotion being weird by itself, why would you pad your suspicion with the meta reference in the first place?

How do you feel about Kaboose now?

Probably scum. My initial reason was wrong but his posts so far have only brought up more concerns and I've yet to see anything that looks town from him. You're scumreading both Kaboose and Firebringer. What do you make of them mutually pushing each other?

Tells me Kaboose jumped from null to scum for me.

Why did he go from null to scum based off of Wisdom's flip?

VOTE: firebringer

You are no longer welcome here.

Is this based on his vote for you?

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@ Kaboose/Firebringer, you missed my questions to you in Post 262.

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These are pie's posts. Would you like me to try to answer them or would you like to wait for her to answer?

Either way works but neither of you answered my first question re: ETL. Also, if it is an independent read, I'd like your reasoning for it.

Hmm, I tend to belive Sonic's claim.

Why? It is one thing to say Sonic is town and gambiting. The claim seemed obviously fake and trying to bait Firebringer.

No, I'm not sure. Her play is still town. Still, there are lots of people who are blank spots. Who would be much better targets. Like really, the only reason for this is to avoid a policy lynch that we weren't doing in the first place. Her explanation is fine and natural to me

Who are those "blank spots?"

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I still don't like any of Kaboose's posts. I have a hard time making sense of his Post 275. I don't think I've ever played with someone only as scum and then when they seemed different in a following game, assumed that they are scum for different reasons. It seems more likely he was scum making up reasons to suspect Wisdom and once it was pointed out that it didn't make sense, came up with explanations after the fact. I want to take a glance through his past games to see if he just has a foot-in-mouth type playstyle.

I don't understand why Metal Sonic is being given a pass. Clearly, he is gambiting. A town cop

does not

claim randomly D1 and then townread a player soft-cc'ing him. His outing Firebringer has a clear scum motivation: to test whether Firebringer is an investigative PR so they can choose night kills better and when questioned fall back on the "I was obviously gambiting" explanation. I don't see the town motive to gambit as town here. Firebringer was an unlikely lynch. Worst case, he could just hard-claim his role if he was at L-1 and we'd have gotten plenty of info from the wagon. Best case, players wind up coming around to townreading him based on his play, so a "I outed him so I could get a read on him" explanation doesn't fly with me. I hope if you are town, you have a better one.

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I have a few townreads. Sthar8 and Firebringer are town. With Sthar8, it is mostly his attitude around saying that he'll be conf-town that I find scum are less likely to fake and I've had no issues with his posts so far. I'd like the townread on Metal Sonic explained however as I'm leaning the opposite way.

Firebringer is town for similar reasons. The initial crumb in Post 246 points to an investigative role and makes sense with his response to Metal Sonic claiming cop. Regardless of whether scum have fake-claims, I doubt he'd be able to pull it off so seamlessly.

I have more tentative townreads on ETL and Sekai which haven't solidified. ETL mostly because of her response to the reroll possibility in Post 189. I think scum are more likely to want a fair game and wouldn't want to be unfairly disadvantaged so if she got caught solely because of cheating, a re-roll would be perfect for her. Her response reads more like town who don't think they're disadvantaged by the cheating.

While I disagreed with Sekai's suspicion of Wisdom, it still read slight town. I also like their post on Firebringer being town before he responded to Metal Sonic's claim.

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@ MetalSonic, in your next post clarify whether you are gambiting and if you are, explain the town motive for it. If your claim is true, why are you townreading someone that was soft-cc'ing you and why did you make no mention of Firebringer's investigative soft-claim before yours. I also want a response to my question to you in Post 262. I'm having a hard time following your reads and thoughts. What are your current reads and why?

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@ ETL, can you respond to my question about Kaboose/Fire in Post 262 and elaborate on your reads there.

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Why are you predicting power roles?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. If you are talking about me speculating on roles, it is because people's crumbs so far affects my reads and the way players crumb/gambut can be alignment indicative.

It is highly unlikely that scum missed the fact that you are hinting at an investigative role so I see no reason to shut down scumhunting avenues just because "scum might catch on." If you want to hide your role, don't be so obvious about it.

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And well, from Sonic's pov who would be a blank spot? Us or the other hydra(well, they are a blank spot for me at least). She's said we're suspicious with no explanation whatsoever.

Why would you eliminate all the other players from being blank spots? Do you have reads on the rest of the playerlist?

I don't think I left any crumbs for my role.

I wish more people would answer my previous question. Who would be most informational lynch?

"

I have night actions that will help me determine Kaboose's alignment

" is a pretty obvious crumb and your response to Sonic's claim telling him not to lie follows from that. I don't care who is a more "informational" lynch. I prefer to lynch players I think are most likely to be scum. I outlined my reads in my previous wall post.

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I'm not bought by firebringer. Think the defence of him is "too bad to be scum" which is almost always bullshit imo.

What do you make of his reaction to Metal Sonic's claim?

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@ PolarVortex, I agree that no-lynch is a bad idea but I don't think people's opinions of it are alignment-indicative so I've largely refrained from commenting. Town are more likely than scum to stick to their principles in the face of intense negative criticism, especially new players (he joined a month ago). I think if he were scum, he would have backed down by now and "seen the error of his ways."

Also, please explain what you make of Firebringer/Kaboose pushing each other. Do you believe they are bussing? At one point, I had suspicions of both of them but wasn't comfortable with those reads because I didn't think they fit as a team so I thought I was wrong on one of them at least. Kaboose/Metal Sonic makes more sense.

I don't think firebringer realized Sonic was gambiting. If he had investigative role(as opposed to a tracker or something like that), he'd have claimed on the spot.

Not sure I follow.

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IMO. Plus, the idea that he has an investigative role(something other than a cop that he'd have counterplayed imediatly) is strange... He might have something like a tracker, but that's hardly an innocent specific role

If he suspected that Metal Sonic was gambiting, he would have reacted in the way he did to lock Sonic down to a claim. It is a 9 player game. It is good to have a decent idea of who the scumteam is likely to be.

You're scum reading me because of my poor memory of my previous games?

I'm not scumreading you for poor memory. In Post 82, you hop onto the Wisdom wagon which had two votes at the time with the reasoning "Wisdom seems off to me from other games we played together." It feels like an opportunistic jump on the wagon and the reasoning looks like you just made it up because you don't want to look bad hopping on the wagon for no reason.

I don't buy that you remember your games with Wisdom enough to know that something was "off" about him, yet forget that he was scum in all of those games. You claim you recently finished a game with him where he was town. Doesn't count. He essentially never had a chance to play that game. He made a total of two posts:

Spoiler:

VOTE: bbt

lolno

One was an RVS. The other was a fluff post.

That's not the only reason I'm scumreading you. I also think your jump onto Firebringer in Post 240 was opportunistic. You saw ETL/Polar pushing him, saw him suspect you in Post 235 and hopped on. You make no mention of your initial "rolefishing" suspicion of him and in fact, don't follow up on it at all even after I called you out on it. Your vote on him also contradicts your no-lynch stance (Post 211) in your post right before you vote him.

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I can remember how people act, but I can't remember what they flip. I think it's unreasonable to suggest that because I know how someone played before means I could remember and realize they were always scum when I've played with them.

When I play a game, I remember the reads I had, which reads were right and which reads were wrong. I watch for the flips throughout the game and after the game ends to reflect on whether I was right or wrong. If a player I was townreading flips scum, I remember that I misread him and he got past me. If I read them correctly, I keep in mind the tells I have for them that were accurate. And vice-versa if a player flips town. I don't understand how you remembered his play and behavior in past games but forgot that he was scum. Normally when players make reads based off of past games, it typically follows a pattern of "I've misread this player" or "I have a method for accurately reading this player and I was accurate in these games." You'd then use what you learned in future games for a hopefully more accurate read this time around.

Also, you're saying I'm scum for me changing my mind!

Firebringer suggested a no lynch, and at the time it made sense.

Then he spoke more and I disliked him and decided he could be lynched and I would be happy about it.

I never said you were scum for changing your mind. Your initially agreeing with Firebringer and then voting him seems like you are happy to go whichever way the wind blows without having any reads or conviction of your own. You say you dislike him for his conversation with ETL. The conversation is mostly him telling ETL that we should no lynch which you agreed with. What about it didn't you like?

Wow, you've seen thst wingback? Not a scumslip, but really close.

I'm not sure what you are referring to. I'm cautious about saying people "scumslipped" as I find that term overused a lot.

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Is wingback a hydra or an alt?

Alt. I haven't played with any of you though (besides AP). If you want of measure of experience level, I have a little bit onsite and a lot (~75 games) on other sites. Why is this your only response to all the questions I left for you?

VOTE: kaboose

You made 50 posts before this vote and this is your first mention of Kaboose. I'd like you to explain this better than "comedic effect." It feels like you are putting a vote down on a very viable lynch and then playing it off as a joke. What is your read on Kaboose (and on everyone)? I asked you this before but your reads are all over the place and I can't make sense out of them. Can you list them all out in one post and explain your reasoning?

Why didn't Polar Bear vote his biggest scumread after writing a wall about it?

If you were concerned about Polar Bear, why vote the target of their suspicion rather than them? Why didn't you mention anything about Polar when you saw their initial wall? I could maybe see this as some sort of reaction test but you haven't really followed up on it.

My read changed at the post when I asked if you were male. Your posting seemed townier and you looked like you were looking for scum genuinely. I think you are likely town at the moment.

This was long before their wall on Kaboose. Your Post 377 doesn't indicate a townread on Polar. Can you explain your thought process there?

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I've gone back to look for an earlier question about ETL than this, but can't find it. What post was it in?

It was the one you just answered.

I'm kinda deferring to pieguy on you, but I'm inclined to consider you not townreading town-me after our last few games as something resembling a scum claim from you.

What happened in your last few games that makes you expect a townread from him here?

I really don't like MS' last few pages.

Can you talk more about this? I have my own issues with Metal Sonic but I feel like a lot of your recent posts have been commentary without really involving yourself in it, seem cagey and away from the major arguments in the thread. Mostly I'd like the background between you and Metal Sonic that is resulting in the type of posting you are making towards each other.

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Looking forward to talking to sthar. Not liking MS. Claim and behavior is fishy at best; willing to let him go a night to see if he can redeem himself in some way.

Still don't like Firebringer either. Happy with my vote remaining there.

What are your reads on everyone else?

You voted, thinking you were adding to the largest wagon, hoping to get an easy lynch.

This seems like you now have Kaboose as town. I thought you agreed with my earlier posting that Kaboose was scum so what changed your mind from Kaboose-scum to MetalSonic-scum looking for an easy lynch (of Kaboose)?

It tells me a lot about both of you. If you're scum, I think that almost guarantees Kaboose is not, and vice versa.

I'm assuming you think Metal Sonic is the more likely one. Also, can you answer my question on your scumreads of Kaboose and Firebringer. They were both pushing each other but you didn't eliminate them as a scumteam. But with Sonic/Kaboose, you rule out that pairing. What are the differences between Kaboose/Fire and Kaboose/Sonic that you rule out one pairing but not the other?

His reads are flipfloppy and make zero sense, and none of them really substantiated.

This was one of my problems with Metal Sonic as well but I wondered if he's just that type of player. You indicated you played with him before. Is any of it playstyle-based?

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@ ETL, can you explain your townreads on the hydrae more?

I'd also like you to substantiate your scumread on Firebringer. On the pushes between Firebringer and Kaboose, I've felt Kaboose's push on Firebringer was more opportunistic than the other way around although I'm independently reading Firebringer as town for the way he handled Metal Sonic's claim so part of that is hindsight. I talk about this more in my Post 339. Basically, Firebringer came out with a scumread on Kaboose and Kaboose responded by voting him when Fire was under pressure with the reasoning "you are not welcome here."

You discount the possibility of Metal Sonic bussing Kaboose, why?

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Hey Wingback, you want my password so you can just type whatever for me and that way you can quit making things up and have them actually be true?

That would be quite nice actually.

On a serious note, I think you are strawmanning my suspicion of you quite a bit and you either genuinely don't understand it or you are twisting it intentionally. That doesn't develop my read so I stopped responding to you for a while to see how you scumhunt on your own and take the initiative without having a "case" to respond to or having to keep defending yourself. My not revoting was intentional. My post to ETL was mostly me trying to read ETL. I'd like to see your reads on other players especially on topics not related to you.

Wingback, what is youe read on the hydrae? I've not seen you give a read on us(at least I don't remember)

You were null when I posted my list of reads so I didn't mention you. After our back-and-forth about Fire and MetalSonic, I started leaning slight town based on your responses.

I had a slight townread on Sekai's early posting (Post 108, Post 113, Post 225, Post 282). Since then, they seemed more passive and less engaged (Post 317 doesn't dig into Metal Sonic's motivations as much as I would have liked, Post 403 and Post 407 don't really engage the ETL/Metal Sonic argument) so I'm trying to develop a better read there.

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@ ETL, can you respond to my Post 439?

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@ Polar, what's your read on Sekai? You haven't mentioned a read on them so far.

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@ Polar, why do you ask to be investigated? As far as I recall, there wasn't a lot of suspicion on you and it should be more helpful from your POV for MetalSonic to investigate someone else since there's a chance of hitting scum or clearing a townie.

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I'm trying to see the points against Firebringer but I don't really agree that his opinion of no-lynch even if wrong, even if he persistently continued defending it is indicative of alignment. It feels more like a theory disagreement to me.

@ Polar, a good part of your scumread on Firebringer seems based on the potential for a doc/vig but vig in a 9P game is unlikely I think and we can't choose lynches based on guessing that a doc exists. My reasons for avoiding a no lynch mostly involve trying to gain info from wagons. The potential for doc protects is a side issue. How does that affect your read on Firebringer if you focus solely on lynching for the possibility of hitting scum/not depriving town of info?

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Kaboose is at L-2 I think.

I looked at Micro 501 and his posts seem geared toward scumhunting a lot more than here so I don't think it's just his playstyle. There are a couple of posts here that I thought were townish specifically the part where he says I'm "pinning bullshit on him" so I wanted to see whether how he'd scumhunt on his own. That didn't really pan out.

I'm happy with lynching Kaboose and prefer it over Firebringer. But don't lynch just yet. I want to hear back from Sekai and Metal Sonic.

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@ Sekai, your posting before you said you'd vote Kaboose seems to imply that you found Metal Sonic the scummiest. When you come around to it, can you list out your reads relative to each other with your reasons for them.

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Kaboose is town. I don't buy that the flavor confirms him as town and I also don't think he's making up his role regardless of his alignment.

Well one flat out claimed cop. The other softed at a possible ability that, who knows? could be a cop-ish ability.

So being that I'm a "Bojack of All Trades" and thinking to myself "Hey Bojackaboose, that's a really terrible nickname." and also feeling like usually a "Jack of All Trades" role gets a cop check... I would have to assume one of the two are lying.

This part though is pretty much exactly how I'd expect town in his position to react. It also matches up perfectly with his Post 433 where he suspects both Metal Sonic and Firebringer. I also thought Firebringer's posts to Metal were townish and I can buy that there's an investigative role in Firebringer and a sort of delayed Jack-of-all-Trades in Kaboose.

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Metal Sonic is lying.

UNVOTE:

So kaboose is conftown

This is nearly the opposite reaction to Kaboose's claim that I'd expect town in his place to have. At the very least, he's town lying about his role. At worst, he's just scum.

If the read is "many words = town" then some reflecting must be done

This is a misrep of Polar's read on me. Polar never implied in Post 576 that the number of words I wrote affected his read on me at all.

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Firebringer's reaction is a bit more ambiguous. He unvotes Kaboose based on the claim but promptly sheeps Metal Sonic to vote me. I still think his earlier reaction in Post 292 was town though and his unvote and sheeping Sonic onto me feels more like it is coming from a player with poor concept of game balance. I also have a few other theories that delve more into his possible mindset. I feel like he was singled out by ETL/Sthar8/Polar critisizing him. That's probably why he latched onto Metal Sonic when the latter approached him in an unassuming manner and had a bit of random conversation and played up Firebringer's abilities before throwing a vote down on me and followed up with a few jokes. A point of concern was that in Post 546, he seems very unsure about who the scum were and names several players but when Polar starts questioning him on his vote for me, he responds by calling Polar bad and seems very sure of himself when his vote was simply a sheep of Sonic's.

But

I think if Firebringer was scum, he may not have voted me at all. Why vote a player who at that time was a concensus townread and townreading him? Metal's scum motive is plausible since he'd know that with Kaboose's claim, I'd default to attacking him next so it could be pre-emptive but Fire's vote is more of a towntell.

Tl;dr

- Firebringer might be town but I'm not entirely sure.

Sonic if not lying

is definitely town.

In the games you've played in the past, is it common to have an abundance of power roles? Your entertaining the possibility in the bolded is what's throwing me off. I can buy "Metal Sonic is lying town" but I have a hard time seeing how from your POV, you believe he isn't lying.

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My townread on Polar Vortex got stronger over last nights posting when he was talking over his reads on me with Metal Sonic/Firebringer and as I read, I wanted to ask questions to Sonic and Fire but then saw that Polar was asking exactly what was on my mind (Post 547, Post 566, Post 572, Post 582).

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Curious to go see if Kaboose had a marked reaction when the claim occurred.

He didn't. I can see his continued pushing of Kaboose being from town that believes there's a JOAT + Cop in the game after Sonic's claim and thinking that Firebringer is the odd one out. He puts Metal Sonic as a scumread in Post 433 though so that matches up.

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I also have stuff to say about Sekai and their two walls but I'd rather wait for them to finish catching up fully first. I do have another question for Sekai: what did you think my read on Wisdom was during the time he was in the game? You seem to be townreading me and didn't have an issue with my play around Wisdom's ETL push so I'm interested in hearing what you thought my read on Wisdom was and why.

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There's a lot to catch up on. My only scumread being Metal Sonic means I'm wrong somewhere on my townreads. I don't think it is Polar or Kaboose and I don't think Firebringer is partnered with Sonic. I need to think about my reads on ETL, Sekai, and Sthar8.

I need to read more deeply into the game which I'll do over the next few hours. I'll break this up into sections starting with Sekai's two walls. I'm probably voting Sonic once I'm done if nothing changes.

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i didn't like sthar's kaboose case. a lot of what he pointed out was really obvious, but i don't get the impression he was actually considering possibilities or analyzing motivation there - the first two points i think are (infuriatingly) more likely playstyle as opposed to anything alignment indicative. the third point i don't see how he gets "backpedaling" off of what kaboose actually said there and i don't see how it relates to being able to scum read someone via meta. in hindsight, i remember a lot of these types of posts in 13p normal (namely the scum case he made on egg based around thor/mala interactions where he pointed out a bunch of stuff that *looked* scummy but wasn't actually solid). i might be reading too much into it or biased here

Sthar8's case echoed mine but it is a little different. I don't agree that it was scummy of him to post it. Looking over it in Post 501:

1. The "squicky opportunism part was pretty accurate. I had a similar problem with Kaboose which I mentioned earlier in Post 339 and Post 344.
   
2. I don't agree with Sthar that the defense by red herring was alignment indicative.
   
3. The third point about Wisdom was something that I mentioned earlier as well in my two posts that I linked. I think players tend to remember the alignments of others in previous games remarkably well. For instance, if I picked a random game of yours and asked you who the scumteam were, my guess is that you would recall accurately. Can you tell me who was the scumteam in Left 4 Dead without looking? It is something I noticed a while ago - it is very hard to forget who was scum. Granted, it doesn't apply to every player but if Kaboose was paying enough attention to Wisdom in those to notice behavioral tells, also forgetting that Wisdom was scum was unlikely. Anyways, I don't suspect Kaboose now. I just think he's a wierd anomaly. I'm more hoping to get a read on your motives and possibly Sthar8's. I'm not sure I'd have said Kaboose was backpedaling. I thought he was making stuff up by referring to Wisdom's meta and got caught on it.
   
4. Sthar8's case brought up similar points to mine. Why did you only have an issue with him and not me (was it just the meta-reference of Sthar pushing cases like this in the past as scum)?

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The next stuff that hits the thread is the back and forth between wisdom and kaboose about kaboose's meta reasons for thinking wisdom could be scum. At the time, I thought this looked bad and was thinking we might vote him once pie and I synched. It still looks bad, though kinda fits kaboose's playstyle and apparent experience that he'd jump to different = scummy without thinking that the difference is from scum-Wisdom games he's played.

In your previous wall, you seemed to take the opposing stance when you said Sthar8's case on Kaboose was bad.

The only scum-motive I can see for how he kept referring to the flavor to a degree that Wingback thought it was a crumb and kaboose thought it was rolefishing is exactly that - to prompt a reaction from whoever had the role.

How likely do you think this is?

This time,

his exchanges that result in town reads feel shallow.

I especially felt that way about his townreading me though it's further along in the thread.

Agree with this. His suddenly townreading the entire game besides me for no reason at all seemed weird and I felt he was stretching to find any reason to townread Kaboose and Firebringer when from his POV as a town cop, that's not a reaction I would expect.

It kinda looked like a non-reaction.

It looked town to me at the time because I think if Fire was scum fake-claiming an investigative role, he'd try to bring less attention to the fact that his role overlaps with a town role, not more. It's in scum's best interest to act like overlapping roles can really both be in the game as it wouldn't force them into a one on one and leaves room for ambiguity. I don't understand his subsequent townread on Sonic though although that could be behavior-based.

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Tells me Kaboose jumped from null to scum for me.

You're going to have to do better than that. Explain why. And why, if he's scum, you feel like letting him live another day rather than voting for him right now?

No matter how positive always leave room for error.

I have night actions which might help me sort out Kaboose.

You did here.

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you stand there playing video games and wondering why the manager fired you

your analogy is wronger.

firebringer is not playing video games. he has a speech lisp and people are calling for the manager to fire him because you hate hearing his sound + he is "new on the block"



wait till he brings in the fire

then you will be fired

Sonic you are the only enjoyment I get out of this game lol.

I hope you are town.

This and Sonic's post that he quoted pretty much discounts a Sonic/Firebringer team.

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ms/firebringer makes a lot of sense to me. why isn't firebringer raising hell about ms lying? why isn't ms raising hell about firebringer being a lazy sack of .....? instead

they are stroking each other's cocks about how towny they are and how wonderful it is to play with each other.

sorry. that doesn't fly. scum hunt or get dead.

my allergies are worse today than yesterday but again, i am at work and have access so i will check in every so often but then i am going home and staying home for two days.

p-edit: you are not on my town list.

I'd like a response to the post I recently quoted in my Post 944. I mentioned this before but essentially my impression was that Metal Sonic was going out of his way to get Firebringer to townread him. His Post 652 defends Firebringer in a way that is more like how scum defend townies rather than their partners. Fire's Post 655 could come from town who Metal Sonic successfully convinced he was town and it is overall a weird interaction to have between partners and I'd like to hear what makes you think they are partners. The part I underlined made me laugh out loud though.

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must I be on your town list to have a conversation with you?

Isn't that the standard you're applying to me? Because you've ignored everything I've said to or about you to talk to your townreads about how I'm not town.

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I was feeling like you haven't made much of an effort to question us. Looking at your iso, I see several questions and comments for us in the early game. They seemed more about understanding our reads and asking for more detail than about directly sorting us. And they fell off after you had that first go-round with MS.

Why is trying to understand your reads in more detail different from directly sorting you? Isn't understanding someone's reads a good way to figure out their affiliation?

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There's actually a really big easy push on me that's

not

happening for some reason, and I'm trying to figure out what that means.

What did you mean by this? You got read as town early and there was never a point where you came under serious pressure. It could mean that scum are townreading you but it would depend on who the scum are. Is there a reason you were expecting to be an easy target?

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ok so my basic conclusion is that sekai is probtown. a lot of the same ideas and thought processes are occurring there that I am following and agreeing with and having myself.

Sekai's thought processes looked different from yours in that they spent a lot of time suspecting Metal Sonic and trying to read him but less so with Firebringer. You say that Fire and Metal are scum together but we should save Metal for tomorrow because he's brilliant and we should lynch Firebringer today? You've also had a lot of problems with Sekai in the post in the wall you wrote about them. What tipped the scales to town?

Sekai backed off of the Metal Sonic read which was one of the things you agreed with. Does that change anything?

They are very eager to policy lynch me.

Where did you get this idea?

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I'm reading Kaboose as town for obvious reasons. The last few pages further strengthened my townread on Polar Vortex. @Sthar, I get you are trying to read them so I won't get in your way for now but I'll say more later. Metal Sonic is still the one player that gave me no reason to think he's town. I don't think he's scum with Firebringer which means it is probably one of ETL, Sthar8, or Sekai. Sekai's posted a lot of analysis and while the quantity can be faked, one thing that stuck out to me as town was their position on Sthar8. At the time they suspected Sthar, nobody else did which makes their stance disadvantageous to scum. This is mitigated by the fact that Sthar opened with a scumread on them so I'd like to see their reasoning more in-depth. @Sekai, can you post your reads on all the players? I can follow individual reads you have but don't understand their relative strengths.

On ETL's part, I'm surprised at how strongly she seemed to be townreading me throughout the game. It could just be that my posts are transparent since many people have a townread. I can think of a few reasons why she'd do that as town but I'll keep them to myself until D2 at least. Her reactions to Wisdom thinking he broke the game is still a pretty strong towntell. If she was scum and got caught from cheating, a reroll would be perfect because there's always that uncertain feeling that players would have so it doesn't make sense for scum to not ask for one. I don't understand ETL and Sthar8 wanting to leave Metal Sonic for tomorrow. I'll try and look back at the way ETL, Sthar8, and Sekai were all reading each other.

I didn't find the last few pages very useful and I agree with the general notion that the game is dragging a bit. Metal Sonic is the one player I want to lynch and depending on his flip, try to make further connections.

VOTE: Metal Sonic

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@wing, fferyguyn- Talk to me about PV. I don't see anything in their iso that looks like legitimate scumhunting. They're focusing on the theoryfight with furbringer over providing content, and their jump onto me was both telegraphed and really weak.

I'm not sure if I'm just frustrated with the double standard and revisionism, but I looked through their ISO and I can't recall why I was townreading them.

A good part of it is subjective stuff that I've mentioned before: mirroring what I'm thinking at several points. Other reasons:

They are sticking their neck out for a Sonic lynch beyond what's necessary considering nearly everyone had some degree of suspicion towards Sonic.

Their read progression from Sonic to you was initiated by them. They picked up on you profiling Firebringer, found it scummy and pushed on it. I realize it is null for you since you apparently do it as both alignments but I could see someone who doesn't know that thinking it to be scummy. It's more their initiative that I read as town than their actual arguments. And why pick up on that and pursue it as hard as they are doing when they could continue pushing for a Sonic lynch - a push for which they are catching no flak for? They had plenty of chances to back out. And if Sonic is their partner, bussing hard and backing out when a Sonic lynch is still on the table doesn't make sense.

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Sthar8 is town.

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@ Sekai, in your list of reads, you list Sthar8 and Sonic as the scummiest but say you aren't willing to lynch Sonic which makes you the third player in the game (after Sthar8 and ETL) who expressed suspicion of Sonic but want to save him for later and I'm trying to figure out what that means.

What are those town things that you see from Metal Sonic's play?

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I was town, in the Lying Cat hydra. Be aware that when I say I was more subtle in that game, I mean I was a dick to sonic and gauged his reactions (hey sonic, remember "I'd rather lobotomize myself with a dildo than read your meta?").

From this, I assume that your post to me here was a variation of this:

misrep

This word is the mark of a bad player. Please don't use it.

Did you learn anything from it from my (non) response? What did you think you would learn about my alignment if I had responded?

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I've played very lots with sthar8 and I think he's scum.

I think scum aren't likely to say this. When scum stick their necks out on the line especially D1, they want to be "right" for the towncred and the more straightforward strategy would be "I know Sthar and this is his towngame."

wat? Why on earth do you think that?

Because it feels like Metal Sonic is trying appeal to Firebringer on an emotional level. When scum partners interact, they might bus or buddy or whatever else but defending a partner against a townie and the partner responding by saying that Sonic is the only enjoyment they are getting out of the game and hoping that he's town?

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Sthar8 is town.

Why? Has he done anything a good player like him can't fake?

The ATE and self-vote could be faked and I don't know what he's capable of but the accompanying "I had a bad role and was crumbing cop hoping to be nightkilled" shows a deeper thought process.

There has been an unusual amount of cheerleading for votes in this game. I don't think it's scummy behavior, but it does tend to stir up the contrarian in me.

What do you mean by cheerleading and who's doing it?

Wing, I'm sorry if you felt like that was me being a dick, but you'll note I'd pegged you as an alt after your first couple posts. I've already made my judgment wrt you and I decided that you are both proficient enough to not use that shitty word and mature enough to endure the blunt criticism.

I didn't think you were being a dick. I ignored it initially because as a rule I steer clear of things which might create tensions in mafia games. When I saw that link, I remembered that post and wondered if it was some type of test so I asked about it.

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@ Sthar, have you ever self-voted before in frustration as either alignment?

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Because if he did, I want to glance through the game to see what he's capable of under pressure and the circumstances around it.

This game is throwing me off because nearly everyone besides Sonic has given me a reason to believe they are town but I'm clearly wrong somewhere and I'm trying to figure out where.

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@ Metal Sonic, at what point did Polar Vortex overtake me as your strongest scumread that you picked him to make a case on?

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I'd have preferred if you let him answer.

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I was rather busy the last few days and I'll get back to this either tomorrow or day after.

Sthar, here's your reminder about posting the links you said you were going to post.

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Am I the only one who isn't convinced Sthar8's crumbs make him town? There are two types of crumbs (letter crumbs where you spell out certain letters, and softclaims, where you hint that you have a specific role). In my experience, scum don't scan every sentence in a game to look for letter-crumbs but they'd most likely notice the soft-claims. Post 139 where he spells out C O P really doesn't make sense as a crumb town would use to trick scum because it is not of the type that scum would pick up on. On the other hand, if Sthar8 was scum, C O P seems like something he can easily point back to later if he chose to fake-claim cop. Alternatively, I could see him crumbing multiple different generic PRs (Post 34: "I don't need to this game", Post 150: "At some point I'll be conftown"). I'll read through some of his scum PTs to get a sense of the type of planner he is but I'm not dismissing this as beyond his capability.

@ MetalSonic

, if your read on me was POE, then you must have had a townread on Polar earlier in the game. Why did you read them as town at first and when did it dawn on you that your townread may be wrong.

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The self-vote itself could be faked but the entire thought process of "

I've had this elaborate gambit planned to use my bad role optimally and get nightkilled and now that plan's gone down the drain, I give up

" is much harder to fake and I had an instinctual reaction to it as town. I'm not convinced some of his crumbs were posted with the intention to bait scum into nightkilling him because I've rarely if ever seen scum PR hunt by looking at first letters of each sentence of arbitrary posts and I'm concerned they serve a scum purpose as well.

What did you think about his self-vote and his pushes on Polar Vortex and Metal Sonic?

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The timing of Metal Sonic's push on Sthar8 made me think Sthar8 was town and Sonic was responding to Polar's attack on Sthar8 as an implicit defense of Sthar. It read more as trying to get Sthar on his side rather than attacking the same person his partner was pushing and tying themselves together. Then he suggested that Sthar8 and Polar were scum together which made no sense but also threw me for a loop on whether it could be Sonic/Sthar8 and Sonic was was looking to tie them both together in the event Polar goes down first.

All of this assumes Sonic is scum though. If he's not, I have no idea who I'd think is the scumteam.

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That last sentence should read: "in the event Sthar goes down first."

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Metal Sonic's case itself was pretty bad. A lot of the stuff that he points out is "not scumhunting" is simply Polar trying to better understand something or having a point clarified and doesn't shows scum motivation. Stuff like "they are asking why a post is suspicious rather than annoying" is just silly. And many of the posts Metal Sonic finds scummy are posts Polar made before his Post 538 where he called Polar town.

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i'm looking for something akin to your doduo case from over the garden wall, or your mollie case from ori

one post without any reason doesn't really cut it :/

Can you post links to these please?

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Thanks for the links. The first link wasn't so much a case as him just raging about having his scum play insulted. The second link was vague so I can't make much sense of it so it didn't really help me very much.

I'm interested in your reaction (pieguyn's especially because of personal involvement with both of those cases but your slot's in general) to his case on Polar Vortex here.

Who is the most likely scum? I want to see some actual scum reads and I haven't seen it so far. You've never voted anyone this game and the last time you posted a list, Metal Sonic and Sthar8 were at the bottom which I can understand. But you've since been reconsidering them and I want to know how this impacts your other reads. What happened to your reads on ETL and Polar Vortex? You mentioned that you had no read on ETL so how do you plan to develop one? Did Polar's reactions to Sonic's case help your read there? Would also like your synced thoughts on the past few pages once you get a chance to do that.

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VOTE: wingback

Try again. You have six other players to choose from and two scum. 33% odds.

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First off, welcome TSO. I have a few questions about your posts so far:

1. How much of the thread have you read? It seems like you are aware of Metal Sonic's Polar case and I want to know how informed your view on the game is. Is your scumread on MetalSonic based entirely on content he posted since your replace in?
   
2. Do you affirmatively believe Sthar8 is town or is it more of a "I-need-time-to-read-him" type of read? What of his responses are you reading as town as per your Post 1348?

---

I thought the two cases pie was talking about had both passion, conviction and logic behind them. his case agains Polar Vortex doesn't have those attributes to nearly the same extent, except possibly the conviction.

I agree but can you explain why this is outweighed by your other head's post? How do you weigh things in your hydra in general?

Anyway, he made a very strong reach-out to me - specifically me, not pie - earlier in the game. I played with scum-MS a few months ago. In that game, there was nothing resembling a reach-out from him.

In what sense to do you use the term "reach-out" in a mafia context? Can you quote the posts where he did this?

wingback i think pointed out a lot of these posts were before he had Polar Vortex as scum in the first place. which is true and something i'm considering, but i think this also plays into him putting a bunch of effort into making the best looking case possible; he could have just went back and tried to stretch to find shit in their original posts because he thought i'd be more likely to see he was town here if he had more points for them being scum.

I don't understand this part. I do think he went and stretched stuff to make a more meaty case hoping to both a) be townread, and b) potentially lynch Polar. My point is that he had Polar as so town that he was willing to POE me out as a scumread so there has to be some basis for that and he provided none. And his only comments on Polar's early posts was that they were scummy. At the

very least

, I'd expect him to say that he thought some of Polar's posts were town but re-evaluated them from a different angle but him pretending like that townread never existed and Polar was making scummy posts all along smells like a made-up read. Not to mention he ignores my questions asking him for specifics.

i would look in {Kaboose, TSO, maaaaybe ms} for second scum.

What made Kaboose jump back into your pool of non-townreads?

---

MetalSonic backing off of Polar when it is clear no one was persuaded by his case and Polar wasn't getting lynched doesn't feel like he actually believes his case. Read changes are fine when backed up but the direction of his Sthar8 and Polar reads strike me as opportunistic. From his initial push on Polar, it looked like a defense of Sthar8 as it was based on Polar pushing Sthar8. After that, he suddenly proposes a Sthar8/Polar scumteam culminating in a blatant sheep of Sekai onto Sthar8. It looks more like he tried to buddy Sthar and when that failed, pushed him to buddy Sekai and I don't see an organic townie thought process where read changes are based on his targets actions or re-reads of the thread.

I prefer lynching Sonic. I think it is him and one of Sekai, Sthar8, or TSO none of whom I was able to nail a read down with lots of confidence so far. If I'm wrong here, it'll at least tell me I need to do some serious re-reading of the game.

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I see two separate potential directions in which this game will probably unwind.

If Polar Vortex and Firebringer are town, it leaves both scum among Sthar8, Sekai, and TSO. I'll re-read with that in mind to see which fits better. The other scenario is Polar or Fire being scum. I'm sure about the Polar-townread but not as much with Firebringer.

A few questions in the meantime:

@ Sekai, would like a detailed walkthrough of your evolving reads on ETL/TSO slot and Sthar8. It looked like you suspected Sthar8 and had a null-read on ETL which changed to thinking ETL is town and "trusting" her concerns with Sthar8 which finally changed to TSO/Sthar8 are scum together. What specific posts caused these changes.

@ Sthar8, who are your current scumreads?

@ TSO, same question. At the end of D1, it seemed like you were going for a Sekai/Sonic team. What does Sonic's townflip do to those reads?

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@ Sekai, my suspicion of Sonic stemmed from the point where he first started getting active. His thought-flow didn't make a lot of sense and the abrupt ISOing of Polar in his conversations with Wisdom looked like he didn't really believe in his Wisdom scumread. I didn't buy his cop claim and the fake-claim gambit didn't fit with any sort of town motivation for me, and still doesn't even now. I'm perplexed as to why he fake-claimed cop and then townread Firebringer for his reactions. It looked like he saw Firebringer soft-claiming that he had a night action and tried to bait a counterclaim which he would back out of citing "gambit" and which would allow him to safely nightkill Firebringer.

The Kaboose vote was odd and came out of nowhere and it looked like a half-joke, half-serious opportunistic hop onto what was at that time a viable lynch. I didn't discount him just bussing Kaboose either. Then there was the suspicion of me because everybody else looked town (including Polar Vortex) which didn't make sense with his case on Polar Vortex which takes into consideration things that Polar did even before his townread. In hindsight he probably did it to impress you guys but I find it a weird thing for a townie to beef up a case to appeal to another player rather than cut through the BS and give his honest thoughts, the former falling in line more with scum who made up a case to appease certain players. The timing of his Polar Vortex case just when Polar and Sthar8 had a fight also fell in line with a scum motive and looked like he could be buddying Sthar8. Whenever I questioned him or made him explain specifics, he ignored all of those questions and never explained himself so I went with my best guess at his motivation.

I didn't say scum were in those two groups. I said that I'm townreading Polar and weakly townreading Firebringer. If I'm right, scum are within you, TSO, and Sthar8. But I need to re-read my townreads, especially Firebringer to make sure I'm not missing anything.

You didn't answer my question though. I'd like an accounting of your ETL/Sthar8 reads and how they developed.

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@ Sekai, I was busy irl on Thursday and couldn't check in.

It is easy to be pissed off at the MS lynch in hindsight. Your stance on MS most of the day was to have him as one of your scumreads to later on saying that you won't stop his lynch but also won't join it. MS's own play involved two separate fake-claims which while somehow winded up coming from town is hard for me to legitimately be "pissed off" about.

I'll check back tomorrow and I hope to have your response to my question by then.

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Just re-read the end of D1. With the way the lynch went down, I see two possibilities:

If Sthar8 is scum, his partner was likely helping push the Sonic lynch which means with Kaboose flipped, it probably comes down to TSO and Polar and I'm reading Polar as town.

If Sthar is town, TSO probably is too - it doesn't make sense to take such a strong position on Metal-scum and lose a good part of his credibility. I see scum in his place as more likely to weakly defend Sthar8 and possibly let the lynch go through which destroys Sekai's credibility. Then he could easily present Sekai and Metal Sonic as the scumteam in MYLO and get one of them lynched (Sonic) considering he was suspected by quite a few players. In this scenario (with town-TSO, town-Sthar8), with my townread on Polar, the most likely scumteam would be Sekai + Firebringer.

The key is to make sure I'm right about Polar, then I'll delve into both possibilities.

Wingback - what's your read on sthar?

Not sure. See the possibilities I've listed above. I'll try and narrow things down.

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@ Sekai, why did you choose Kaboose as your target N1?

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ISO'd Polar. It strengthened my townread there.

• Frustration with Firebringer and persistence in trying to explain no-lynch theory to him (ISO #33 to ISO #38). They seem offended and that's hard to fake.
  
• Their Post 257 showed a lot of in-depth scumhunting.
  
• Post 324 - Not mentioning MS's gambit hoping he'll be nk'd is a town thought process especially when Polar doesn't have a read there.
  
• Post 332 - "I don't think they believe this position" with regard to a theory position. The incredulity here was town.
  
• The belief that Kaboose scumslipped in Post 341 and follow-up excitement in Post 342 didn't look fake and scum thinking a townie scumslipped would be a little funny.
  
• Grilling Metal Sonic in Post 362 for the Kaboose vote was a good point to bring up. Scum in their place wouldn't want to undermine their push.
• Correcting ETL's position on Sonic (ISO #74 - ISO #79). The refusal to take free support for their position shows town motive.
  
• Their Post 566 was actually a good point on Firebringer and Post 582 grilling Sonic for his position was something I had in mind as well.
  
• Saying Wisdom and ETL were bussing is a weird position to take as scum.
  
• The enthusiasm in responding to Sonic's case on them (ISO #244 - ISO #256) plus the big talk on their scumgame right after a case was made on them: if they're scum here, hats off to them.

Their reads evolved with info from the thread (calling ETL scum in Post 64 to an eventual townread, starting off by trusting Sonic's gambit to later suspecting him) looks like naturally evolving fluid reads that are hard to fake. If anyone disagrees here, they should point it out.

---

Partly being pretty sure he's town.

Didn't you put Kaboose back in your pile of non-townreads in Post 1318? What made you put him there and remove him back out again?

Umm, why do we want a lynch todsy and don't jusy go for a no-lynch?

I was considering this idea but after ISO'ing you and seeing everyone universally townread you, I don't think no-lynch would help all that much as most likely you'll simply get killed. If not you, then me and I want to have some control over the outcome of the game. Even in the worst case we no lynch and I get night killed, I'd rather put down content in the thread to help the others make their decision.

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I think this is a good time to clear some potential scumteams based on lack of quickhammer. It'll help my POE.

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So, definite scum in Sthar8, Sekai, Firebringer (unless I'm wrong on Polar). That doesn't help very much for me but I want to see how it affects other player's scumhunting knowing it isn't me and TSO since we're the only ones who've had a chance to quickhammer.

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Firebringer should explain the Sekai read.

Sekai, please answer my question which you've put off for a while now.

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Who do you think is my partner?

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I'm interested in seeing who Sekai thinks it is. It can't be Sthar8 obviously because he's the one at L-2. It can't be you because you already voted. It can't be TSO because we've had lots of posts and didn't quickhammer. So they must think it is me and Polar. I want to see them justify it.

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Who do you think is my partner?

I'm not sure you're scum. But, your posts about clearing scumteams ping hugely when someone's in hammer range.

Reminds me of a micro I played last winter, where Pine signalled his partner he was around to quickhammer.

Links please.

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I'm interested in seeing who Sekai thinks it is. It can't be Sthar8 obviously because he's the one at L-2. It can't be you because you already voted. It can't be TSO because we've had lots of posts and didn't quickhammer. So they must think it is me and Polar. I want to see them justify it.

Or your partner is already on the wagon. Or your partner is sthar8 and you're trying to spook town off of it. In which case well done!

The people on the wagon are you and Firebringer who you seem certain is town.

Posting and not hammering eliminates potential scumteams.

Can you go over your reads again.

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Who do you think is my partner?

I'm not sure you're scum. But, your posts about clearing scumteams ping hugely when someone's in hammer range.

Reminds me of a micro I played last winter, where Pine signalled his partner he was around to quickhammer.

Links please.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=59579

The specific post was here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6414461

That post was a scum player addressing a townie asking if there was anything he wanted. Not going "here I am, so eliminate me and this player as a scumteam because we haven't hammered."

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There's another aspect here though. Within minutes of voting me, Sthar8 was at L-2. Unless he dropped a vote and went offline, that should have been an issue of major concern. Particularly if he's town.

What does that tell you?

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I've done more D2 than anyone else did. I agree that if I were scum, I could put in similar amounts of effort although I would have played my hand very differently. I haven't been under pressure because I've been obviously town?

Can you explain your Polar Vortex read for me? And take me through why you were initially reading me as your strongest townread D1 and how that changed?

The reason I'm skeptical of you is that your "paranoia" seems a bit overdone. Do you have links to how you normally play in MYLO/LYLO? I'll look over the game you posted. I'd appreciate a larger sample.

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Also explain your thought process for unvoting if you thought it was me/Sthar8 together.

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Is your relative paranoia of me compared to Firebringer/Polar based on experience/perceived competence or purely based on play?

(And I'll glance through those links in a while)

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Do you have reason to believe Firebringer's and Polar's D2 play was town or is it solely based on D1 play?

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No I didn't.

I might later.

I feel like we might have townread you (

and not just you

) too easily. I'm concerned that you didn't post again after Wednesday, as the game day reached its conclusion. You weren't around to consider MS's revised claim, to sthar8 and TSO voting in tandem to make that lynch happen as soon as kaboose showed up again.

That's a lot of relevant game for which I have zero stance from you to evaluate.

Who are those other people?

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Fairly certain you've guessed wrong unless since I haven't played with either of you before (unless you have alts I don't know of).

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Yeah, pretty sure you're wrong if you're town unless you you've followed my games.

Can you respond to my Post 1548 please?

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@ Sekai, I'm obviously experienced - more so than Polar and Firebringer I'm sure so I

could

see myself being harder to read. Can you explain what you mean by "data-driven" and why Polar Vortex and Firebringer aren't that way in your mind?

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This feels like a useless question. Why do you ask it?

I think you've set a rather low bar for Firebringer and Polar Vortex. While I read Polar as town off of D1, I don't think their D2 play is impressive. They have done much less than I did. Understanding what you think of their play will help me figure out whether this lower bar you set for them is justified thus giving me a better idea of your sincerity which directly corelates to your alignment.

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@ Polar, who are you townreading?

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@ Sekai: You're using different criteria to read different players. The town reason for doing this generally would be because you perceive their playstyles as different and don't think the same criteria apply. Asking you what you feel the differences are based on a remark you made about "data-driven" was the most straightforward way I could think of to understand how you are developing these different reads and whether they are town-motivated.

Anyways, if you are town, I think your initial scumlist was right and it is Sthar8/TSO. But I don't trust your motives as much as Firebringer and Polar seem to and your read flip on me was came out of the blue. I don't want to be wrong here so I'll sleep on it and think some more before I get back to this.

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Busy week for me so expect sporadic and low activity.

Still cant decide what to do. Maybe i am overthinking it. We've eliminated me/tso, me/polar, and polar/tso.

Can we no lynch? A smaller pool will help for me.

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I'm not sure that Sthar8 is town. I'm vacillating between a Sthar8/TSO team and a Sekai/???? team. I don't like Sekai's read flip on me at all. They explain it by saying they didn't like my response to someone being put at L-1 but I have a hard time believing that an entire day's worth of play is outweighed by a null response and it looks like they wanted to accuse me because I didn't trust them as much as the others seem to. All of their suspects (me, TSO, Sthar8) are players that don't trust them and their townreads (Polar, Fire) and players that do. It's too convenient.

Reading back through the game though, something that struck me was that ETL and Sthar8 at one point didn't talk to each other very much but after Sekai started accusing them, they both pushed on each other which seemed reactive to Sekai's push and would point towards Sekai being town. I've been really busy and my no lynch idea was essentially a way to buy time to analyze this game more - time which I barely have, but I can't just replace out at this point when my last decision will probably be a win or lose. If Sthar8 is town, we've basically lost as no one really seems to be willing to consider Sekai as scum. If Sthar8 is scum, I guess tomorrow it'll be between me and TSO and I'm pretty confident I can explain why it is TSO to someone who's willing to listen.

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@ Polar, who's scum if Sthar8 is town?

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We lose the game if that's the case so does it matter?

If we lynch him, we lose. I'm trying to get you to see it from alternate viewpoints.

You and Sekai and Firebringer are all gung ho about Sthar8 being scum and it just doesn't feel as simple. I don't get why no one besides TSO is even considering that Sekai could be scum and are giving them essentially a free pass.

Firebringer is happy to hang Sthar8 purely for voting Sekai and you aren't considering the possibility of them being scum. So, how about explaining that read?

I mean, part of me has just given up because I don't see how we win if Sekai is scum and it would rely on finding and lynching their partner first and probably nailing them in 3P LYLO.

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(If we lynch Sthar8 and he's town, we lose).

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Why aren't you voting if you are so certain we have to lynch Sthar?

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Why aren't you voting if you are so certain we have to lynch Sthar?

Who would you lynch today?

Do the spoiler posts please.

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Answer my question.

Not now. But when I make up my mind, I will. I've listed my concerns in my previous posts.

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Post it as is. I don't care. I want to see your behind-the-scenes work in raw form.

Your townread on me falling apart is part of a larger problem. Everyone that doubts you (me, TSO, Sthar8) are potential scum in your mind. Everyone that trusts you (Polar, Fire) are all but confirmed town to you. I don't need to explain why taking such stances is very advantageous for you as scum in the current situation.

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@ Sekai:

But you can take me through in exact detail how your townread on me fell apart and if it is convincing, I'll reconsider where I could be going wrong with you.

So far I have:

- Wingback didn't post towards the end of D1 (which is due to being busy irl. I didn't log onto MS at all that day)
- Wingback's reponse to someone being at L-1 is scummy (for which I've explained the town motive for)
- Wingback is a competent player who can play beyond what Polar and Firebringer are capable of

So, go through my D1 play. Tell me why you thought it was town in the past and why you think it is scummy now.

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Post it as is. I don't care. I want to see your behind-the-scenes work in raw form.

Your townread on me falling apart is part of a larger problem. Everyone that doubts you (me, TSO, Sthar8) are potential scum in your mind. Everyone that trusts you (Polar, Fire) are all but confirmed town to you. I don't need to explain why taking such stances is very advantageous for you as scum in the current situation.

I had that concern. I saw them kind of sucking up to us in the hydra, but I don't see the bsnefits when we already towm read them stongly?

In the hydra?

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Strawman much? None of those points make sense and you know you're misinterpreting what they say.

Actually they make perfect sense. What I want to know is why those points are weighted heavier than their previous points on me as town.

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I'd still like people to explain why the trust in Sekai. At this rate, if Sekai is scum, we'll lose the game but at least I get to say "I told you so."

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Because both sekai heads are anime fans and because of this are awsome and can't be scum!^_^

If you're town and Sekai is scum, I will QUOTE a bunch of your posts where you embarrass yourself in endgame for the lolz.

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I'd still like people to explain why the trust in Sekai. At this rate, if Sekai is scum, we'll lose the game but at least I get to say "I told you so."

Sekai is acting way more town than you.
You might be 'scumhunting' just as much as Sekai, but your reasons for no wanting a lynch now completely contradicts your earlier position. Why is that? Cause s8thar has the pressure?

If Sekai is scum, who exactly is Sekai partner? Cause it isn't me. I doubt heavy its TSO, maybe Polar but I think thats a bit of a stretch too.

You can say you told me so if you are in fact not scum. Now why dont you do us a favor and bus your ally to make this easier.

I am in fact not scum and I WILL say this if you wind up town but I have no idea who else could be scum with Sekai.

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I COULD see Sthar8 as scum. It all just feels a little too convenient. You tie me and Sthar8 together, assert that we are the team, come to some sort of revelation about TSO. If you're scum, whichever of Fire/Polar are town are being fooled very well.

I honestly don't even know if a no lynch will help us in any way. I'm debating internally between just hammering, hoping for the best, hoping you are right and that I'm able to show you that TSO is scum and wondering if I'm just handing you the game by hammering. I'd like TSO's opinion on this.

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Leap of faith.

VOTE: Sthar8

I hope to hell you are right and TSO is the remaining scum.

If not, I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO POLAR VORTEX. I TOLD YOU SEKAI WAS SCUM AND YOU DIDN'T LISTEN.

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Thanks for modding AP. I had a ton of fun playing with all of you guys. Daytalk played a huge role in helping us plan our strategies.

This town was really good and sort of formed a bond between Sekai, Polar, and Fire that was impossible to break - to the point where none of them would vote the other and without a modkill, it would have been a very different game. I backed Sthar though because his arguments felt more reasonable to me. I was surprised the rest of the town bonded with each other and not with him.

I felt I played pretty smoothly D1 but as we got closer and closer to a win, I got a lot more sloppy. I'm curious what it was that Sekai and Metal Sonic saw when they figured I was scum.

@ Metal Sonic, your reads were spot-on before you got distracted with Polar. I think it would have worked out much better if you just played normally, crumbed tracker and claimed when at L-1. Mislynches are what wins games for scum and with the game so tight, it would have been impossible for us to win if you had looked town enough so Sekai/pie for instance called in their previous experience and demanded that you not be lynched. I realized you two had past experience with each other and the initial misreads provided that slight bit of opportunity to squeeze in a mislynch and just barely make it. And we did just barely make it - if Polar jailed me N2, we would have lost. We couldn't quickhammer was that we knew there was at least one protective role for the town so we had to play out the entire day.

And btw, I was amused at Sekai's description of me as an easy lynch. Being scum, I didn't mention it in game but the number of times I was lynched over time has actually been fairly low.