Micro 580: Shortnight Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Chenoan]

Hi guys.

So since anyone voting would be handing out an early hammer, I'm gonna agree that random votes should not be a thing.

However.
Random

FOS: RadiantCowbells

because that is not a good song.

[Chenoan]

Literally what

[Chenoan]

Is this because i don't like Creep? It like their worst song.

[Chenoan]

okay fine, I'll stop insulting your music tastes. To be honest I only really listened to Radiohead because a guy I liked in college was into them.

Still FoS'ing you for quickvoting in an easy hammer situation, though. Why'd you do that when lovelygiant has yet to post

[Chenoan]

If it's that simple then this game is a lot more town slanted than I thought at first. Thanks for enlightening me RC

But in all seriousness, two people post that random votes are probably bad and then you vote for a non-game reason? Either you really think this game is just super town sided or part of you hopes to trick town into quicklynches and then framing the hammerer.

[Chenoan]

if we lynch two town and they stupidly use the vengekill on a townie then mafia has already won, guys.

lovelygiant was that a subtle intent to hammer thrown in there?

Obviously a lot depends on both groups lynches. If only one maf gets lynched, then they get a nk on a conftown and put it into lylo with one conftown, which is probably the easiest win for us (outside of lynching both mafia today) assuming the conftown left behind has good reads. But if two townies get lynched and there isn't enough info in the thread to inform the nightkill then the mafia wins immediately.

Which is why I'm thinking Radiant is probscum. Trying to incite an early lynch where they are not the hammer vote and therefor are less suspicious.

[Chenoan]

And right before you set up the dichotomy, you thank Radiant for enlightening you. How can you claim to be enlightened about the setup and then immediately avoid applying what you've learned to instead make Radiant look suspicious?

I'm sorry, i thought the tongue emoticon I posted indicated my sarcasm.

If it's that simple then this game is a lot more town slanted than I thought at first. Thanks for enlightening me RC

[Chenoan]

RC, what's the reasoning behind the sudden change of heart? You unvoted me without much explanation. I thought you said a quickhammer was nothing to fear?

[Chenoan]

What's he gonna do, quickhammer you?
Then he'll be confirmed scum and we'll either vengekill him and confirm him as scum or speedlynch him tomorrow.
I don't understand your fears here.

This felt like pushing a fast lynch from my point of view.

[Chenoan]

Well RC if you decide to hammer me then i hope this thread stays active enough that I can get a good read on y'all for a night kill later. I can't believe you're even considering lynching before all the players in the game have posted, though.

Still heavy leaning scum on RC right now. But holding off on my vote until the other group chimes in some. Or, ykno, I become the easy mislynch.

[Chenoan]

And if I'm being played, RC deserves an award for screaming town so clearly.

RC isn't screaming town at all.

They basically gave you an invitation to hammer, then unvoted suddenly and are now holding the hammer themselves. BUT when I flip town they will guaranteed use their "why would I hammer town if i was scum, look at my own argument!" WiFoM bullshite.

[Chenoan]

what the fuck are you even saying here.
I did not invite him to hammer, I said that it would be idiotic of him to hammer if he were scum because he'd get vengekilled for it.
I unvoted so he couldn't hammer when he expressed interest in it.
I have extreme difficulty believing this fixation on me comes from a town point of view when LG's last page pinged the shit out of me.

You put someone at l-1 and then left it there without knowing the meta of the other player in our group to know how they would react once in thread. That player came in and almost instantly essentially claimed intent to hammer. Your unvote gains you some town cred, but not enough in that you aren't even scumreading lovelygiant at all for wanting to hammer and then jumping on this arbitrary wagon. Instead of scumreading at all, you're buddying them. Giant could be scum, but I'm still banking on you.

Yeah, wait, shouldn't you be scumreading me if anyone, Chenoan?

And trying to stop the "I'm civ and will vengekill you" tag line isn't selling your case.

Why should I be scumreading you? I know you and RC can't possibly be partners because the two goons are split in the two groups. So unless my read on RC is wrong, you have to be town by PoE. And I'm just getting more and more positive about my RC read.

Yeah, pretty much.

I like you.

Nice buddying you got going on over there.

I just get nasty feelings about the way that he was trying to ward me off hammering with an appeal to vengekilling me instead of trying to convince me he was town or something.

Why would I convince you that I'm town? I think you're maf, so it's LG I need to convince. Plus, I know from experience that I almost always get lynched once I'm wagon'd because I somehow always read as scummy when I'm town. I guess I'm over eager or something.

As is the traditional disappearance instead of giving a real defense when the heat gets to be too much.

Although I have to get used to players not being on 24/7 like at my old forum. Day phases were ALWAYS 36 hours. So we made an effort to be present. I guess it's fair to give him time.

I didn't disappear. It's been less than a few hours and the day phase has a deadline of two weeks.

Which, again, I'm amazed that y'all are still gunning for a hyperspeed lynch over here when the other group has yet to post much at all.

[Chenoan]

I'd love input from the other group of three to make sure I'm not tunneling.

Also, RC is too busy buddying you to tell you this, but yes. Youre tunneling me. Which tbh is to be expected since we're lynching between only three people. But I'm not scum so it's problematic for town.

[Chenoan]

holy cow you guys. I got sick and couldn't concentrate for shit every time i tried to post and so i left this thread alone for a bit and it doubled in size. What even. Trying to catch up now.

[Chenoan]

Okay so I can't respond to every point in every post so I'm just going to try to hit the important things. If I miss something please point it out because I'm still in a cold-induced mindfog over here.

You managed to not acknowledge that I've handed RC the hammer. He has chosen not to use it, for very town-driven reasons. Certainly that alone should make you reconsider your scumread on him?

Me passing the hammer opportunity to RC should actually be seen as a scummy tactic to shirk blame for lynching you, if you really are town. That's what

I

would think, in your shoes.

See this is the first solid towny thing I've seen from either of you. I tend to trust my gut. And you passing the hammer felt way more like nubtown than like intentional scum lynching. I still don't know you're general meta, though, so my gut read on that could be very wrong. BUT, you're assuming a lot about how I theoretically should be perceiving things. Like you're trying to anticipate town reactions to your posts. Only reason to do that is if you're scum. Hm...

This is part of why I haven't voted yet. RC feels like glaring obvscum to me, but I don't want to be wrong and give maf the win right off the bat.

RC's 56 - You're right. I have been. It's a bad habit I have. After I'm caught up I'm going to take an effort to re-read this game day so that I can assess everything better now that the other group is going at it more.

Reckoner's 61 - Wowwwww. That feels like a huge cop out to me. Like setting up an argument for when he's up for lynch that "oh no, I'm just bad at d1!" to justify not lynching him. Suspicious.

Thanks to lg's 67 I learned about that feature too. Interesting for them to draw attention to it and then see that they have twice the posts of everyone else. Almost like they're setting up the thought of "oh, they've been so active, they MUST be town!"

Timu's 72 - Solid point. I hadn't considered that LG might be buddying RC and not the other way around. Hmmm...

Reckoner's 73 Literally what. Delayed reaction to the radiohead lyrics from page 1 or did I miss something? Why was this posted now, like 70 posts after the fact and after you'd already responded to other things, Reckoner?

Ranger's reads are so random???

Okay apparently Reckoner just hadn't paid much attention to the thread. Still doesn't make sense on the previous post, though. Since the RH lyrics were literally the first player post and he'd have seen him during his first game post???

Reckoner's 94 feels off to me. No mention of the possibility that it could be just two town agreeing with each other? Also didn't you just drop sarcasm about people referencing meta, but then you just self-meta'd?

The only player I'm getting a decent townread on right now is TIMU.

Ranger's 90 - I'm not as experienced as most players in this game, but I'm not a newbie. I played a few games here a few years ago and then life happened and I forgot that mafiascum existed. Recently I remembered and got the itch to play.

Speaking of which. RC, I realized why you seemed familiar. You were in one of my newbie games a few years ago as scum. I just re-skimmed it and your tactics here feel very different than your tactics there... Could just be your experience changing your playstyle, though. Maybe I actually

should

read up on your meta.

Reckoner's 93, 94, and 95 - Very sudden change in reads. Feels like you think I'm a sure-lynch and then when I flip town you can just point out these posts for instant towncred.

@MOD: Will flips be posted after each lynch, or both together at day's end?

LG's 97 - answered above. Very specific thing for you to be revolving your whole scumread on me around.

LG's 101 - that feels like WiFoM. Now, should I ever scumread you more than RC, you could just pull a "look! called it!"

TIMU's 111 - So much self meta in this game it hurts.

I find it funny how the active players of group 2 are townreading me, but the ones in my group aren't. also interesting to see LG start to get defensive...

I'll rephrase. So far you've called me out for both fence-sitting (holding off on deciding somebody is scum or not) and then deciding that person is scum. you put me in a lose-lose situation. what do you want?

I know that feel. Me not voting you was scummy, but now you've said that if I decide to vote you it's scummy. Lose-lose situations are fun, right?

RC vs LG is interesting... That unvote-revote, though. Thought I had finally formed a good townread in my group aaaaand it's gone. I'll probably revisit these posts again with more focus after I'm caught up.

Reckoner's vote feels a little OMGUS'y, but he gives reasons for it... hmm... Is there a way to view multiple player's iso's at once? It's be interesting to just read group two's posts in iso.

Okay, and I'm caught up. After I digest this a bit I'll have more to contribute. But for now, would everyone post their current reads on both groups? I think it'd be very enlightening.

For me.
Group 1: TOWN> Me, LG, RC <SCUM
Group 2: TOWN> TIMU, Ranger, Reckoner <SCUM

Though I will say that Reckoner is only edging out Ranger a little bit right now. And I'm a little worried my gut scumread on RC was due to recognizing them without realizing it.

[Chenoan]

I'm sorry for your illness.

I don't know if "doubled in size" is a big deal at 7 pages, though.

Oh, and if anyone wants more details on my reads, I'm happy to oblige.

Yea, it seemed like a bigger deal at first than it actually was.

[Chenoan]

Oops. My formatting on 155 is a mess. Meant to say thanks for the concern. Then the "Yea, it seemed..." sentence, Then the "oh, and..." sentence.

I started typing out the "oh, and..." comment and then saw LG's post and capy/pasted and quoted without paying attention or thinking clearly.

[Chenoan]

I've been awake for over 33 hours now. I'm going to leave responding to Reck and re-analyzing the day until after I've been able to sleep.

[Chenoan]

Not the case. I never once have tried to defend a lynch on me by "LOL I AM JUST BAD AT D1", and the fearmongering here based on potential futures instead of anything concrete is pretty terrible.

Well of course you haven't yet, but it still reads that way. Looking back it seems like I'm not the only one who thought so.

I made a mental note to comment on the Radiohead thing because I love Radiohead, got distracted by actual content stuff and things happening, forgot about it, mentioned it after the fact. Why is that weird? Why is that some grand conspiracy?

It felt very weird. And potentially buddying? But I honestly couldn't tell. It would have been nice if you'd put some comment about how "oh, this is late, but..." or something??? It was just weird okay?

Second off, I wasn't self-metaing. I was bringing up a reasonable defense of my actions regarding the Day 1 comment. That's not self-meta. Self-meta would be saying, "I am town because I do X" or something of that nature. This was simply me providing rational, empirical evidence to clear up the confusion around my "I'm bad @ D1" post.

Referencing you own meta as a defense is self-metaing in my opinion.

As I said, I reread. Why are you starting from a place where you assume ill intent rather than earnest enlightenment? Why does it

feel like

I'm trying to earn town points by defending you if you're town, rather than

feel like

I reread the first few pages and saw something I hadn't seen before?

And betting on "sure lynches" as scum makes no sense in this setup, given nobody is playing a long game.

All scum has to do is get two mislynches, and seem JUST towny enough to not get NK'd, and they win. So sure lynches seem like the obvious mafia strategy to me?

Reckoner's vote feels a little OMGUS'y, but he gives reasons for it... hmm... Is there a way to view multiple player's iso's at once? It's be interesting to just read group two's posts in iso.

Yes, indeed, you can click the "+" icon near the bottom of the page to do that.

Thanks for that. But no acknowledgment about the OMGUS?

[Chenoan]

Still no reads lists. Humor me please?

Responding to things asap. :3

[Chenoan]

oh, nevermind. I forgot that a couple people actually posted them. So not

no

reads lists, but still many not posted.

There is literally no good town reason to not post your FoS's at this point. We are obviously getting very close to lynches on both sides and if we fuck up and double lynch town then those reads lists will help inform the night kill.

[Chenoan]

Also, in case it wasn't a given, I'm most interested in the reads you have on the group that you are not in. Since the reads within your group will be obvious based on your vote.

[Chenoan]

Okay so I'm gonna do ISO's on everyone, starting with my group, and my initial scumread.

What's he gonna do, quickhammer you?
Then he'll be confirmed scum and we'll either vengekill him and confirm him as scum or speedlynch him tomorrow.
I don't understand your fears here.

UNVOTE:
k don't quickhammer.

Okay so pointing out these two posts again. This unvote makes NO sense if RC is town and actually believes what they said in 11. If LG quickhammered, then we'd have found the scum already according to their logic. In fact, according to post 11's logic, RC should have scumread LG for even wanting to hammer. But he didn't. Maybe because he thought LG would be easy to manipulate? Throw in a little of 13 for added logical inconsistency here, too..

How is anything that I've done remotely 'trying to incite an early lynch'?

I never responded to this well. I'm dumb. But now that there's more content I feel even more like RC was eager for a lynch, and I was just the easy target at first. Or they might have been scumbaiting? But if they were scumbaiting then why did RC not follow through on their logic and scumread LG at all?

So uh Chenoan.

Anything to say?

Again this feels so eager for a lynch. Literally one page after he unvoted, and less than ten minutes after LG voted, there's this subtle pseudo-intent to hammer. When I first read it I felt like I was being asked "any last words?"

It still feels that way, tbh.

35 & 38 The buddying of RC to LG begins...

I just get nasty feelings about the way that he was trying to ward me off hammering with an appeal to vengekilling me instead of trying to convince me he was town or something.

So I didn't catch it at the time because I was being overly defensive, but this is a serious misrep. I never said I would vengekill RC. In 31, I said I wanted them to stay active after I died so I could get good reads on them. Clearly indicating that although I was leaning scum on RC, that I wasn't sure.

56 - A valid point. After this point and TIMU's post regarding the RC/LG buddying I started trying to make sure I wasn't scumreading RC due to tunnel-vision. (Don't worry RC, I'm ISO'ing LG after this ) Also, at this point is where group two generally became more active, and tbh personally I find scumhunting buddies is easier than individuals.

Town can be plenty confident of scum.
Chenoan's opening was ridiculous, his stances are ridiculous, if I were in his shoes I'd feel the same way.
Group 2 needs to start talking more.

tbh I did feel a bit ridiculous when I realized I was taking an internet forum game so personally. Which is why I decided not to post until after work. And then I got sick. Now with distance from my initial emotions I still agree with my logic, but I should have composed myself more rather than firing posts of from the hip like I did.

132 - This feels scummy as fuck.
140 - This is more a mixed bag. Like on one hand it feels very genuine as a reaction. But the "I will get you lynched" is such a random threat. Especially considering how he reacted to me not even actually threatening to NK them if we double lynch town.

Either way, I'm fairly sure Reck's scum at this point but I think it's more likely that LG is the scum and that the Chen associatives are a deliberate false trail because he intended to be lynched. It goes with LG's flip floppiness over townreading me; he may be acting like this because he knows he has to 1v1 me sooner or later but doesn't want to attract my attention before that.

Can you explain this more? Are you saying that I intended to get lynched? Or? I'm confused by this and can't really react to it until I understand?

I do find it interesting how RC is questioning why everyone finds them town. I'm questioning the same thing. It feels like evveryone has just assumed it as a given at this point without good explanations? But the fact that RC is questioning it publically seems VERY towny. That throws me off.

RC, in 195 you seem to be flipping your scumread onto Ranger. Is that true?

You know when you phrase it like that this game sounds ridiculously townsided.

Lol what?

If it's that simple then this game is a lot more town slanted than I thought at first. Thanks for enlightening me RC

I like how you're asking for lists with reasons now without having posted a recent list yourself. I'm gonna update my reads list after I'm done with ISOs. But you can read back and see my old one.

[Chenoan]

LG's ISO might take a bit since they have literally 1/3 of the posts in the game.

[Chenoan]

Okay now that I'm caught up on sleep and off from work for a moment. Here we go on LG's iso. To be honest, it was mostly a lot of filler and so finding actually useful information was hard.

Votes are not nearly as precious a resource as early posts would have you believe. Hammering would reveal way too much for mafia, and if a civ hammers this early, they've more than earned the vengekill they'll eat.

So far I'm liking Radiant for mirroring similar thoughts.

So upon rereading this irks me a lot. I couldn't figure out why to begin with, but just wait.

I was hoping you'd catch that. That right there is why I'm townreading you already. Scum would have let it be and scores an easy lynch.

So now it's my turn.

Out with a solid townread like basically one page into the game? How confident of you. Also, with keeping in mind that my original buddying read that RC was buddying LG could be reversed, this is the second post in a long line of buddying.

Don't let my first game be this easy, really.

And if I'm being played, RC deserves an award for screaming town so clearly.

RC hasn't been screaming town at all. The only reason I can see to say this is buddying. LG is either dumbtown or playing some SERIOUS WiFoM games.

Saying you are town isn't a scumtell, obviously.

Obviously

. Because of course, you've been saying this all game, so you needed to make this post to dissuade everyone from thinking it's a scumtell when it literally isn't. But this post is super sus.

Is there a "Who's Posted?" function that shows post distribution in a thread amongst players? My old forum had one and I find it pretty useful later in the game to analyze overall activity and to go from ISO to ISO with ease.

Again, I still find it interesting that he pointed out this feature just so we could see how active he's been. But it's a lot of short posts and most of them don't add much to the conversation.

I'm still insistent on the fact that Chen, if town, should have been scumreading me after I traded hammers with RC, but instead he stayed on RC for fear of being inconsistent. He just breathes scum in town's clothing.

Quoting this to link to...

From a strategic standpoint, if Chen is mafia, the smartest thing to do now would be to try and push for me. He can't vote RC and conceivably succeed because that would require me also voting RC to hammer, which ain't happening. His only move left would be to lynch me as attempt to convince RC to switch with him, which is more realistic. That's the biggest problem with this game's structure (that I've found anyway.) Unless I'm missing something.

Less than 4 posts apart LG sets up an impossible situation. He seems to have decided that I'm gonna get lynched today, and wants to have every argument available to him. If i vote RC, that's scummy because I'm just doing it to appear consistent. If I vote LG, that's scummy because I'm just doing it because LG won't lynch RC and I'm going the path of least resistance? K.

it is noteworthy that your first post in the thread was used to discredit RC and I after we started voicing suspicion on Chen, yet you managed to not mention Chen at all, possibly to avoid being too forward in your defense.

RC, I know this is going to seem like more buddying, but I'd like your insight on this.

Hanging a lantern on the buddying. It's not buddying if he posts that it's buddying, right?

also, I'm like really, really positive on my townread of RC (so far). By PoE I have no choice but to suspect Chen. So regardless of your disagreement with my suspicion of him, I kind of have to lynch him.

So he has a solid townread on RC for reasons I still don't fully agree with, and I'm just getting lynched by PoE? Yea okay. Obviously if you have a legitimate townread on the only remaining townie in your group the 3rd person must be scum. But in this case, I'm starting to think my gut reaction in the game was very, very wrong.

I feel like my reads on people in relation to them townreading me is more coincidental than causal. I have been doing my best to scum hunt, whether or not I've been successful at it.

It wasn't specific points in Chen's post, but more the way he wasn't afraid to garner more attention and create more discussion around him by calling out pretty much everyone, the opposite of what a scum would typically want in that situation, right? Forgive me if I'm wrong.

I found you very civ for your withdrawn vote in fear of my hammer, amongst other things. Our early interactions with Chen revealed a lot, I thought, but the more I look at them, the more I can see them with both town and mafia motives, myself included. That's what the doubt and Unvote/revote nonsense was about.

I find myself confusing Reck's and Ranger's reads a lot. I'm gonna reexamine the thread in its entirety while it is still short.

What are these "other things" RC has done to look towny? You've mentioned that they exist, but not what they are. So what are they?

Oh, dear. I wish you weren't scumreading me, but I don't know how to stop you.

Literally what.

My flip-floppiness was genuine because, whilst second guessing my scum read on Chen, it left only you to consider. The reason I went BACK to town-reading you was the overall assessment that, no matter how my brain spun it, you were just unarguably cleaner and I was making a mistake.

I do strongly agree with your reads on Reck for my previously explained reasons. I think you're reading his relation to Chen and me

backwards

though. It seems almost transparent to me, go and look at those posts of his, in context. He didn't start dissecting Chen until AFTER ranger mentioned the likelihood of them being a team, and after he had felt he's done his due diligence for the sake of distance, he acted as if he suddenly found me way more guilty. It's bogus as all hell. I guess the transparency comes from knowing my alignment, though. And that I can't prove. Working on it.

So this is getting me even more convinced that LG is scum, and is either bussing Reck or trying to get Reck mislynched. I can't tell on the last part though. My reads on Reck and Ranger are hovering dangerously near each other.

You're fairly certain TIMU is town. Could you clarify why? Is it in spite of his many slip-ups?

Because

of them? Or nothing to do with that altogether? Mostly curious, as I don't think anyone has commented on them in relation to their read of TIMU. So I'm struggling to be sure whether they're a scummy thing or possibly a towny thing. Still leaning in scum, but would like insight.

Linking this back to...

Bumping TIMU to townlisted for now.

Literally what? You bump TIMU to town and then some 30 posts later question why someone else is townreading him? What's the logic there? Also that's not even addressing how you go from "bumping TIMU to town" to "Still leaning scum" on him...

[Chenoan]

Okay so I was going to just vote LG right now. But I want to get ISO's done on group two first to see if I missed anything important regarding my group. For now,

FoS: LG

[Chenoan]

The fuck?
I did scumread LG for wanting to hammer.
I just scumread your reaction a lot more because your fixation on me didn't make much sense.

Nothing you said at that point seemed to indicate any scumread on LG. Did I miss something?

No, I'm saying that you might be town and that Reck wanted to make false associatives.
I'm fairly sure that TIMU is town. I'm not quite sure between Reck and Ranger.

I thought you had a solid townread on Ranger. Where'd it go?

I needed help sorting people /shrug
I think my stances are fairly clear anyway? If there's anything in particular you're interested in then ask me.

I still really don't understand your scumread on me.

If you could just post them for sake of clarity? That way no one can go back and be like "But no! RC's reads were x!"

And tbh, my scumread on you was a lot of gut seasoned with tunnelling. I still don't fully townread you, though. And I don't understand how other players seem to be doing that??

[Chenoan]

Unlikely to change at this point. I'm set.

You sure bro? RC might stop townreading you again.

Also, I'm not saying your post count is scummy. Saying you deliberately pointing out the activity tracker because supposedly seeing how the activity in the threads is divided can help people's reads is scummy.

You essentially, at least how I'm reading it, claimed that more posts = more town. And then you proceeded to post a lot of filler.

Keep going, though. It's making my decision easier.

[Chenoan]

So RC, your 243 is definitely the strongest towny post I've seen from either of you now. Add to that my conclusions from LG's ISO and I think I'm almost ready to vote. Though insulting me did hurt

MOD: If our group lynches before the other group, will the surviving players still be allowed to post? Will the lynched player (you said they can keep posting until you post their death in the rules, and said you'll post both flips at the same time, so I just want to clarify)?

I don't want to vote If it will stop us from helping the other group scumhunt. Especially not before I've had time to actually iso the second group properly.

I've said multiple times that TIMU is my strongest townread, I think. I know I said it at least once somewhere? But tbh I'm leaning towards Ranger as the scum at the moment. I think I'll iso Ranger next...

[Chenoan]

... Are both of the people up for lynch in group two just going to not add any more content? That is not pro-town, guys. wtf.

[Chenoan]

Suddenly TIMU's looking towny in comparison. Jeez.

You flipflop worse than sandals.

VOTE: lovelygiant

I'm honestly not gonna have time to finish those isos this week because a friend is visiting from out of town. But I'm pretty convinced you're the scum now.

[Chenoan]

NOW who's threatening to vengekill if they get lynched? God I didn't even threaten a specific person.

Though for the record, if we lynch two town and you kill me, it's game over.
But tbh, I'm pretty sure you just slipped hard.

[Chenoan]

Who's slipping where

I thought just a few pages ago you thought the optimal play was for scum!Chen to lynch you. Interesting you flip that opinion as soon as you're under pressure.

TIMU gets it

[Chenoan]

Also.

Literally HOW are you still on this idea that TIMU is scummy??? Every other player in the game has solid townread them. Trying to keep all your lynch options open, LG?

[Chenoan]

Also I personally feel like the most likely scumteam at this point is LG/Ranger. But maybe that's just me.

[Chenoan]

I'm drunk and even I see through this bs. Lynch this plz.

[Chenoan]

I'm not hammering until I see your group's hammer.

why is that? Regardless of who gets lynched the results are mostly town-sided at this point, I think.

Unless you're specifically worried about who you'll have to face in 3-way? Because it's already established that the flips will happen at the same time

[Chenoan]

Like on one hand I understand RC's argument. But on the other hand... Lynching two town is the WORST possible scenario for town. If two town are lynched there is a 50/50 chance that they will vengekill another town and make us lose. But if one scum and one town are lynched we are guaranteed a day two AND we will have one person as 100% confirmed town on that day two. Both groups should be trying to lynch scum as much as possible, that is our best bet no matter what. There is no upside to intentionally lynching two town.

[Chenoan]

... so that happened.

[Chenoan]

So, RC. Your turn.

[Chenoan]

... are you joking though. If they both flip town I'm pissed.

Didn't I just say how there's no positive outcome to two town lynches???????

Oh my god. Well played, maf. You basically won at this point. Ugh.

[Chenoan]

Wow I didn't die.

K well. TIMU please be good at hammering.

VOTE: RC

[Chenoan]

Also I'm so mad I mistrusted my gut read. Wow. Well played, RC.

[Chenoan]

K i'm going to dedicate time to this tonight/tomorrow. Life has been busy with my friend here and detailing my case is going to require focus i just don't have at the moment.

[Chenoan]

Sorry for the absurd delay. Work has been hell this week. Working on finishing my post. I'm trying to submit it before I pass out tonight.

[Chenoan]

Okay so rereading while knowing RC's alignment now obviously gives me a bias. To summarize my coming argument, RC's play looks very much like he knew only one scum could make it to day2, and felt like his survival was the best bet for their win. He has played pretty well tbh - in fact if he wins I'll only be mad at myself for not voting him to begin with. But at the end there's one major slip that I missed before that I hope will be the nail in his coffin.

157 Is a giant wall. But 90% of it is distancing from Reck. RC is even saying he doubts that me/Reck are the scumteam really hard. Something definitely went wrong with his plans - probably those two left field self hammers that made RC lose control over the hammer in our group.

But yeah, I don't like how quick Ranger is to write me off as town after she did the same in our last game and I was scum.

I'm just gonna leave that there. Ranger, if you're reading along, you misread RC yet again.

You know when you phrase it like that this game sounds ridiculously townsided.

I'd had similar feelings, but now I realized that since we're already in the game should it be a good thing that it's town-sided - assuming you're town of course? This doesn't sound like commenting on a good thing.

I was scumreading both of you at the time because both of you were being absolute nonsense.
I came to the conclusion since that LG was more scum motivated compared to you being more likely to just be derptown.
Luckily a LG scumflip will confirm me as town or you're scum so your read on me isn't a huge deal to me.

So this is the set up of self-clearing. Basically LG's townflip MUST mean RC is town - you heard it from RC himself! That's bs.

On the other hand Reck looks like he's basically given up on our group, which I can see given that I'm universally townread no matter who his partner is

Including if his partner is you, apparently?

I don't want to lynch scum in my group if the other group's going to lynch town.

I'm not hammering until I see your group's hammer.

I don't care who I have to face in 3 way.

I care about them getting a vengekill in this group and killing me.

I lynch LG. He flips scum. You lynch Ranger. She flips town. LG vengekills me, obviously. Are we done?

So these posts are important for later.

Zzz.
scum didn't want me hammering LyLo.
Chen, if you don't speedvote Reck I'm going to be fucking pissed at you. TIMU is town.
And seriously Ranger, don't fucking selfhammer. grats on that little number. if I don't get hammer and we lose this is on you.

Okay and here's the massive slip. LG was committing so hard to this narrative that they were going to get nightkilled in order to seem more towny. In fact, they knew there was no way they would get killed here because they knew two townies had been hit and so they just needed a little more towncred. LG was scumreading me, and Ranger was scumreading Reck, so one of the two of us was going to die and RC was trying to make sure it was me. Thankfully it wasn't so that we now have one last chance to lynch RC.

Alright.

So it should be fairly obvious that Chen is scum because he

1) Scumread me for reasons that far more easily and obviously applied to LG. Like his case and the whole gut thing on me was fairly terrible. I don't feel like I need to explain that to you again.
2) That entire RVS fiasco. Like seriously it was a disaster. I don't need to explain that to you again.
3) Refused to commit to a townread on either of us. It's pretty clear that throughout the game he (she?) knew that he/she was going to have to fight me eventually.
Even on the rare posts where he did 'townread' me it felt more like he just wanted to make sure that I lynched wrong by buttering me up. 240 and 228 are horrible because any interpretation would be that he'd be coming out scumreading both of us and uncertain and yet he came out of it scumreading LG which doesn't really jive with the posts themselves. And that making my decision easier for NAI stuff line in 245 is fucking dirty; like he's setting himself up to have lynched wrong. And even when he was scumreading LG he kept giving him outs as 'oh he could be bad town' and saying stuff like 'RC wasn't obvtown at all and that's what I'm scumreading you for!' which is just horribly transparently setting himself up to switch to pushing me.

Also read 313-315. I was pretty fucking sure LG was scum at that point and since I was already pretty close to hammering Chen, which LG should have known since I said I was going to hammer my townread to give myself hamer in the endgame. So LG selfhammering threw me the fuck off and I was near positive that he was scum and did it because he was afraid that I'd hammer his partner today. Chen on the other hand already knew that it was town so he started setting himself up for the fight that he knew was coming. I thought that LG was scum and that should be pretty clear from those posts.

So according to you I'm...
1) Scum because I gut read scum correctly
2) Persisted on my gut read until you successfully planted enough doubt in me
3) Wouldn't townread scum

Yea okay. TBH i was kind of shocked by the LG flip at the end, but now I feel stupid for being shocked at all.

I think I fixed it...?
~M

[Chenoan]

Ugh i messed up my quote tags.

[Chenoan]

That is not the case at all. Oh my god. RC do you drink WiFoM for breakfast or something?

[Chenoan]

There's not much to respond to. You lie really well because you don't give the person telling the truth an chance. You accept your lie as blatant truth regardless.
Here's what's going on:
1) You say I'm lying
2) I say I'm not
3) You say I'm lying about not lying
4) repeat until TiMU hammers.

If TiMU hammers me it's because you outplayed the entire town. I think LG was the one who said you should get a medal for your performance this game. I scumread them at the time for that, but now I agree.

[Chenoan]

Uh, you did lie and blatantly so and it's eminently demonstrable.
Town you had no way of knowing that LG was town for that selfhammer. I assumed he was scum trying to prevent me from
You immediately knew after the hammer that he was town in spite of him being your primary push for the day.
Then you lied about it after and said that you actually thought LG was scum. It's super obvious on reread.

No I didn't lie. Where did I "know" LG was town after their self hammer and before their flip?? Please do share, because apparently you know that I knew things that I never myself knew.

Me and LG both went through stages of townreading people. At no point in this game did you ever put anyone in our group as townreads; you kept us both as viable lynch options because you knew we were facing this 1v1.
Chenoan did not. He kept us both in his scumpool and just

LGs stages were 90% townreading you for no apparent reason. You flip flopped on your TRs too. So don't you go saying that I kept you both as viable lynches when all it was is that I did not know 100% who was scum. I at least committed to a vote, unlike you?

And for the record, Ranger is an amazing scumhunter. I myself nommed her for an award for best town play.

I cannot attest to that one way or another, I only know what was said in this thread regarding how they failed to read you in the past. you're the one who brought it up to begin with, why back-pedal now?

I'm town, I don't understand why you're scumreading me and I think Chen has been pretty fucking obvscum.
If there's anything you have questions about in my play ask away.

I'm assuming this is pointed at TiMU, because from my view, you're completely obvscum. I'm still so mad at myself that I ever mistrusted my gutread.

[Chenoan]

Let me fix that misrep for you.

... are you joking though.

If they both flip town I'm pissed.

Didn't I just say how there's no positive outcome to two town lynches???????

Oh my god. Well played, maf. You basically won at this point. Ugh.

But nice try there.

[Chenoan]

Oh my god. Well played, maf. You basically won at this point. Ugh.

This is clearly not something you're talking about with any 'ifs'.
stahpit.

Because if LG and Ranger both flipped town I assumed LG was going to kill me and force the loss?

[Chenoan]

No matter what I say you're going to find a way to twist it and misrepresent it, aren't you?

[Chenoan]

Here's what's going on:
1) You say I'm lying
2) I say I'm not
3) You say I'm lying about not lying
4) repeat until TiMU hammers.

[Chenoan]

-yawn- I told you guys. I still don't get where the RC townread came from tbh.