Micro 657: Vanillite Mafia (Game Over!)

[Aeronaut]

VOTE: Thinkbig

I also think the cubs are great and therefore you are pandering to my opinion and are scum

[Aeronaut]

I make everything complicated

[Aeronaut]

Prod received, drunk now, will comment tommoorre

[Aeronaut]

RVS being over.

I am kind of townreading shannon and Dark House. I wanted to get out of the RVS.

How does town-reading Shannon and Dark Horse make algebra votable in your eyes?

Creature how are you townreading shannon

If I had to guess it's because I played my first scum game with him, so he knows what to look for (I'm new here, only 2 scum games so far).

VOTE: shannon

Found scum boys let's this game moving

34 and 35 both sound way too cautious. That second line in 35 feels really forced

What makes you think that it's not just newbie caution?

Dude I literally answered your first question earlier today. Try to actually

comprehend

stuff before asking questions

If someone hammered her at L-1 right now then they've basically admitted that they're scum.

So... if you think she's scum, then why does someone lynching her mean they're scum? Shouldn't it be the opposite?

[Aeronaut]

@Dark Horse do you have any other reads besides Shannon or do you plan to ride that tunnel all the way through D1 ?

[Aeronaut]

Are you saying that to me or yourself because you quoted yourself

[Aeronaut]

I mean, it's not busy if I'm getting something out of it.

a better way I could have asked is, is algebra a serious vote for you? Do you scumread him?

[Aeronaut]

Any particular posts that seem town from Dark Horse and shan?

P-edit @ creature



@DH- so you still think she's scum? I was getting a strong town vibe from her.

[Aeronaut]

She hasn't said anything that changes my opinion. How are you getting a strong town vibe

Ok, so Dark Horse is still harping on about shannon and the pros and cons of putting someone at L-1 right now, complaining that we need to see more of the day first, but while simultaneously contributing nothing but D1 theory play.

Meanwhile, half the game is mute.

So, I'm going to ask you for the second time, do you have reads besides Shannon?

[Aeronaut]

VOTE: Algebra

You also have contributed nothing so far besides wanting to lynch flames for lurking. What do you think about the game right now?

[Aeronaut]

k

[Aeronaut]

I guess I assumed that Flames was gonna get replaced, but if he's back, I'd love to hear what you have to say also

[Aeronaut]

Flames682 - Null
ThinkBig - Null
Creature - NullTown
Algebra - Lean Scum
Shannon - Town
Dark Horse - Scum

[Aeronaut]

If you're curious how my scale works, it goes

ConfScum

>>

Scum

>>

Lean Scum

>>

NullScum

>>Null>>

Nulltown

>>

Lean Town

>>

Town

>>

Conftown

[Aeronaut]

Oh, I thought I'd answered that question before.

Shannon seems town to me, because as someone who has ICed and SEed and in general been in a lot of Newbie games, her cautiousness and approach to the game screams newtown to me. It's also exactly how I acted in my first few games as town, so I guess that gives me positive vibes from here. As you can probably imply, when someone comes in and started pushing a new player that looks town, using bullshit reasons looks shady as fuck to me.

To me, you just look like you're trying to look busy, which is also something that a few players are doing here. They difference is that you continue to divert away from giving me any sort of reads and are just like SHANNON IS SCUM BECAUSE SHE'S TOO CAUTIOUS!!!, when at the same time you're the one telling everyone that we shouldn't be putting anyone to L-1 because "we need more day discussion!"

Which is something I would normally agree with, but the fact that you said that, and then continued pushing the same person in posts such as "vote shannon, she's scum" with no other real content kind of makes me thing that you're posting to us about why we should have MORE DISCUSSION in an effort to look like town.

[Aeronaut]

Town reads are incredibly important at any stage of the game. Which players do you read as town?

[Aeronaut]

i really would like to lynch algebra tbh

[Aeronaut]

back reading

[Aeronaut]

i really would like to lynch algebra tbh

why what no why

Im with a thinkbig wagonVOTE: thinkbig

Probably because you've jumped on a wagon just because it's a wagon?

[Aeronaut]

Creature is giving reads (even if they're fairly naked ones) and trying to encourage activity so again, town-for-now

In what ways is creature encouraging activity? I really don't have any impression of him yet this game which is bothering me. What do you see that I don't?

Algebra's ISO looks scummy so far, with the wagon hopping, but I don't know whether scum would be that obvious? He is even newer than I am so maybe it's newbie scum and the partner isn't around to give advice? Null leaning slightly to scum

Um... why are you assuming scum have day talk?

I would vote Algebra but I don't want anyone at L-1 yet. So onward up the list I go.

VOTE: Flames

Well what's the issue with putting people at L-1? I don't get your reluctance here.

I was still sorting out the game

Gr8

Skimmed the game; Dark Horse is probably town, can't tell if algebra is newbtown or newbscum. More to come in a few hours.

Hi Postie! What makes you think that Dark Horse is town, because I don't see that very much.

As much as I hate posts like 110, 122, and 126, and can see why he got run up, overall I'm leaning newbtown on algebra now. I feel like I can sort-of see a thought process behind his posts maybe? The fact he isn't making a show of it and instead refuses to elaborate on anything feels like stubborn town. I do not endorse this wagon.

VOTE: ThinkBig

This is much better.

See, I feel though that Algebra's doing nothing to sort the game, and just is joining whatever wagon. Up to this point, TB looked really newbtown to me. Was there something else that made you think differently or is it like just how he posts

Spoiler: Catch Up Wall, FOS on Algebra and Creature

I am kind of townreading shannon and Dark House. I wanted to get out of the RVS.

You never answered my question. Why were you town reading shannon and Dark Horse despite the lack of activity and posts from those two?

ThinkBig why did you wait until now to vote creature

Mostly to try and get some activity going.

Shannon's scum though, there's no need for "empty votes" right now

See above.

VOTE: Dark Horse This isn't an OMGUS because he's targeting me, it's a vote on someone who's lining up lynches in a pretty scummy way

I agree with this.

Leaning on Flames + ThinkBig (algebra as third candidate), but not sure if both scum would lurk like hell.

Why me and why flames? Flames was just replaced and really hasn't posted much before. I'd love to see your justification for this.

Im with a thinkbig wagonVOTE: thinkbig

This is scummy. Hopping on a wagon without giving any reason for it.

Algebra is at L-1 and so I won't vote or hammer.

This looks like newtown to me. I feel like he'd have hammered or at least intended to hammer here otherwise. Idk

@Postie how can you tell that Alegebra is 'newbie town' but scum read Think Big, who has the same level of newbiness?

Because algebra feels like he's actually thinking and just being obstinate, whereas Think Big feels like he isn't thinking at all due to the fact he's saying a lot of things without forming any opinions.

I really feel the complete opposite. TB's posting is almost identical to what I see from new town when I'm ICing, where most new scum just kind of are afraid to do anything but let their partner do the talking.

[Aeronaut]

Postie, Shannon are both town as fuck by the way

[Aeronaut]

because it would have been really easy for you to come in and say "Yeah I agree Algebra is scum" and just intent to hammer, and most people in this game wouldn't suspect you for it

[Aeronaut]

[Postie, Shannon]
[Think Big,
[Creature]
[Algebra, Dark Horse]

I think postie and shannon are pretty easily town for now. Think Big is leaning pretty town for me too.

Creature I don't know yet. I'd like him to contribute more. Still retain my scum read of Dark Horse, and Algebra has done little to make me think he's town

[Aeronaut]

because it would have been really easy for you to come in and say "Yeah I agree Algebra is scum" and just intent to hammer, and most people in this game wouldn't suspect you for it

What makes you think I'm not scum white knighting?

Because again... it makes so much less sense for scum-you to come in and derail the lynch, or at least it does from my perspective. I've also seen your scum play, and this doesn't feel like it.

And why are you townreading shannon so strongly?

Posts like this:

@Aeronaut Re: 157 (because I still can't work out how to break up big quotes)

1) Creature gave me the impression that he was participating and encouraging others to do so, if only by doing things like saying RVS was ended, and throwing out reads that seemed to encourage response or more questioning. I agree it's not the strongest read in the world, for sure, but at that point in the game it was 'enough'.

2) I don't necessarily mean that scum have day talk, but isn't it fairly normal that scum get to have a wee chat before the day starts? I don't know how usual it would be for scum to get day talk in a game this small, or even, is there likely to be more than one scum to look for?

3) I don't like L-1ing someone if I'm not happy for them to be hammered. I do it occasionally (and sometimes accidentally), but at this early stage in the game I think it's not the right time. Especially if the candidate is a newbie. If say, you or Creature had done enough scummy stuff that I thought you were worthy of a vote, and you failed to defend yourself to the newbies in the game, then I'd L-1 for sure. I guess I'm trying to leave room for newbie error. (Though given that I'm a newbie, that might be an error on my part, too).

Shannon is pretty clearly articulating her logic and progression here, and telling us the specifics of her thinking. I don't feel like it'd be this clear or make this much sense without a plethora of excuses had she had to fabricate these reasons.

[Aeronaut]

@Aeronaut Re: 157 (because I still can't work out how to break up big quotes)

1) Creature gave me the impression that he was participating and encouraging others to do so, if only by doing things like saying RVS was ended, and throwing out reads that seemed to encourage response or more questioning. I agree it's not the strongest read in the world, for sure, but at that point in the game it was 'enough'.

I guess compared to the amount of inactivity in the game, Creature's activity is higher than the norm

2) I don't necessarily mean that scum have day talk, but isn't it fairly normal that scum get to have a wee chat before the day starts? I don't know how usual it would be for scum to get day talk in a game this small, or even, is there likely to be more than one scum to look for?

The reason it's confusing me is that you said it like you thought people were getting coached.

3) I don't like L-1ing someone if I'm not happy for them to be hammered. I do it occasionally (and sometimes accidentally), but at this early stage in the game I think it's not the right time. Especially if the candidate is a newbie. If say, you or Creature had done enough scummy stuff that I thought you were worthy of a vote, and you failed to defend yourself to the newbies in the game, then I'd L-1 for sure. I guess I'm trying to leave room for newbie error. (Though given that I'm a newbie, that might be an error on my part, too).

Fair, but people have to be pushed some time.


P-edit yeah postie I owe you more than that, one moment

[Aeronaut]

Because again... it makes so much less sense for scum-you to come in and derail the lynch, or at least it does from my perspective.

Why?

Because I wasn't here really and this game is filled with newbies who wouldn't care either way. You're scum, you don't want to prolong the day, yea?

I've also seen your scum play, and this doesn't feel like it.

Elaborate.

From what I saw in word sneak, you as scum took a backseat role and let the town kind of hash each other out. Here you're making a show of yourself.

Posts like this:

Give me an example from before you gave your read on her please.

105. Pretty good example from what I'm talking about. New scum doesn't make that post.

I actually townread shannon for the same reasons I've decided you're town, she's incredibly present and in the spotlight, asking people to get prodded / be more active in general. If that doesn't scream new town I don't know what does.

[Aeronaut]

So my vote is not going to think big I don't think, unless postie decides to present any sort of case on that besides what's in 151.

[Aeronaut]

Postie why in the world do you think DH is town?

[Aeronaut]

Because I wasn't here really and this game is filled with newbies who wouldn't care either way. You're scum, you don't want to prolong the day, yea?

Unless it gets me towncred. If enough people are gunning for an algebra lynch already, he'd just end up being lynched another day anyway so what does it matter to me?

Because why allow there to be time for interactions to happen with you? We're in a 7p game. You'd think scum would be aiming to end the day quick and pretty much rob town of any sort of real interaction. I feel like that'd cripple town?

From what I saw in word sneak, you as scum took a backseat role and let the town kind of hash each other out. Here you're making a show of yourself.

Backseat role? Were we reading the same game? I deathtunneled the shit out of my partner.[/quote]
Not in your entrance.

105. Pretty good example from what I'm talking about. New scum doesn't make that post.

Aero, that's a goddamn basic list of safe as fuck reads, with a sentence of justification for each. I'm not sure what I'm missing here, but you should probably point it out to me. You're better than this.[/quote]
I mean I don't know what game you're reading, but we're on page 7 right now. If you expect a full reads list with detailed analysis at this point, I don't know what to tell you? Shannon has contributed the most to the game in my opinion out of any other player at that point

[Aeronaut]

Postie why in the world do you think DH is town?

His posts read as brazen, ballsy, and unfiltered. Certainly not the kind of attitude I'd expect a fumbling newb like him to be able to fake.
I'm as baffled by your scumread on him as you allegedly are of my townread.

What are you talking about? Dark Horse has been around since 2010?

[Aeronaut]

And I'm not getting any sort of brazen or ballsy from his posts. What he's done today is tunnel Shannon for what seemed like little to no reason, and then gave us one of the thinnest lines of reasonings possible (see 89). And then he backpedalled and basically jumped on the next viable wagon which was algebra

[Aeronaut]

in fact

VOTE: DarkHorse

This is a hell of lot better lynch tbh

[Aeronaut]

Because why allow there to be time for interactions to happen with you? We're in a 7p game. You'd think scum would be aiming to end the day quick and pretty much rob town of any sort of real interaction. I feel like that'd cripple town?

Sure, but... you don't think that'd make me look scummy as all heck?

No... as I said, everyone in this game really seemed fine with it at the time. So, no. This is a game of mostly newbies and me, who can't read shit.

Do you want to keep debating why you're town in circles or would you like to answer some of my questions please?

I mean I don't know what game you're reading, but we're on page 7 right now. If you expect a full reads list with detailed analysis at this point, I don't know what to tell you? Shannon has contributed the most to the game in my opinion out of any other player at that point

You're completely sidestepping the issue. You said 105 was a good example of "what you were talking about" without saying what that meant, and that it made you townread shannon. I pointed out that I couldn't see anything special whatsoever about that post. Now you're saying "well, there's nothing

bad

about the post and shannon has contributed a lot" which completely misses the point.

So I'll ask again:

what's so special about post 105

? Why does it make you townread shannon?

Please tell me where I ever said there was nothing bad about the post? Again, what are you talking about?

As I've said, 105 is a reads list where one wasn't really required. It's pretty good considering the amount of information the game had on page five. If that same reads list was posted in twenty pages, I'd probably have a different viewpoint.

[Aeronaut]

105 is a great example of what I was talking about because while most of the people in this game were sitting back twirling their thumbs, shannon is putting out posts like that that actually give any sort of stance.

[Aeronaut]

As I've said, 105 is a reads list where one wasn't really required. It's pretty good considering the amount of information the game had on page five. If that same reads list was posted in twenty pages, I'd probably have a different viewpoint.

So it's just the fact that it was unprompted? I guess I'll make a note of that for any future games with you where I'm scum; early readslist = instatowncred, sweet.[/quote]
Literally, yes. I don't know why that's so hard for you to get right now.

Let's break it down so any living human can understand. It is ~page 5. There is almost nothing going on in this game (which is my fault just as much as it is everyone elses). Shannon, even though every single other player is lurking the hell out of this, continues to post her thoughts on players and on the game and makes a decent effort to get people to become more active. If this were a more experienced player, I'd say yea, that's easy to fake. But I just don't see someone who is new to the game going against the grain and continuing being the center of attention. It doesn't make sense to actively get the game going again from a scum perspective. It shouldn't take you five posts to understand that.

[Aeronaut]

quote got fucked up :/

[Aeronaut]

It's absolutely alignment indicative, you just have to know in what ways.

I'm not going to assume all lurking people are scum, but I'm going see people who contribute when they could have easily continued lurking as town.

[Aeronaut]

Are you trying to say Shannon is scum?

[Aeronaut]

Shannon, even though every single other player is lurking the hell out of this, continues to post her thoughts on players and on the game and makes a decent effort to get people to become more active.

Where is she encouraging activity?

Have you read the game yet? Specifically I'd say 45, 60, 77, 113 and admittedly I had thought she was the one that asked for me and Flames to be prodded, and I guess I'm wrong about that since I can't find that in the ISO.

If this were a more experienced player, I'd say yea, that's easy to fake. But I just don't see someone who is new

"Mafia Scum"
She has enough experience. Join dates mean very little.

Which reminds me...[/quote]
That's your opinion, Postie. Join dates mean a lot to most of us on-site. New players follow the same patterns almost every time. You don't have to believe me, but we're not lynching Shannon today. Or TB for that matter.

What are you talking about? Dark Horse has been around since 2010?

Missed this earlier. Note his player title please - Mafia Goon. That in combination with the general "I barely know what I'm doing" vibe he gives off makes him firmly a newb in my eyes.

Ok.... Then if you really believe that join dates mean very little, why are you trying to use that to tell me that DH is town?

And, barring the argument that his player title is at all Alignment Indicative, lets be less general here. You think that he's "bold and brazen." What about my other points? Why ignore those? His tunneling on shannon to look busy, and the reasoning was so paper thin there anyway. He refused to give any sort of reads and just knee jerk attacked me when I gave a lick of pressure. I'm sorry, but he's screaming scum to me. Saying "Oh he's bold and brazen and scum don't do that" is just factually untrue.

to the game going against the grain and continuing being the center of attention. It doesn't make sense to actively get the game going again from a scum perspective. It shouldn't take you five posts to understand that.

What part of that post went "against the grain"? What part of it made her the center of attention? What part of it opened her up to criticism or wasn't safe as fuck?[/quote] she gave stances while your slot had posted an RVS vote and nothing more

[Aeronaut]

Are you trying to say Shannon is scum?

Absolutely not.

So you're wasting everyone's time. You can answer all of the things I've asked you before I continue splitting hairs on non-issues. Especially if you plan on using a player title as an argument.

[Aeronaut]

Postie is just trying to sort me, which is fine. I'd rather her realize I'm town at this point so that we could work together, but not much is gonna get done at this rate

[Aeronaut]

Shannon's 105 did very little to generate discussion, as evidenced by the fact that

literally no one discussed

it until Aeronaut brought it up now.

And here you are, now following what Postie is doing just like you were following my read of algebra.

Compare that to my push on shannon, which actually generated discussion.

... no it didn't. You're "push" on shannon to which you later admitted was just because you didn't feel good about one single post and had no real reasoning as to why; please point out any place where that generated any sort of discussion, because the only discussion I see that it created was me realizing you're likely scum this game.

Plus complaining about activity in the thread but not doing anything else does nothing to encourage activity. I honestly have no idea how you think that shannon has contributed the most to this game

Please lay out a case for why she is scum. Also, can you tell me why you decided Algebra was more deserving of your vote than her when you switched? Thanks.

Specifically I'd say 45, 60, 77, 113

This still has nothing to do with 105.

...I know. I never said it did? These are posts that are about her activity, not 105. What are you talking about?

(And in all of those posts except the last one she doesn't engage with any player, instead complaining about the lack of content while not producing any useful content herself. Jfc.)

Ok, but in most of her posting, she seems to be very genuine to me, just as you somehow think that the handful of shitposts that Algebra calls an ISO is somehow genuine. AGAIN, she could have very easily been much less active and allowing the game the die instead of continually posting.

That's your opinion, Postie. Join dates mean a lot to most of us on-site. New players follow the same patterns almost every time. You don't have to believe me, but we're not lynching Shannon today. Or TB for that matter.

You don't magically get better if you sign-up and don't play any games, just because a certain amount of time has elapsed. Join dates would only mean something if they indicated how much experience someone has, which they don't; that's what their player title does, since it's a reflection of how many posts they've made in games.

Ok, I actually did not know that our player titles changed without the use of the title fairy. As far as I'm concerned, they're both new. Your argument on Dark Horse still doesn't make any sense regardless.

His tunneling on shannon to look busy, and the reasoning was so paper thin there anyway. He refused to give any sort of reads and just knee jerk attacked me when I gave a lick of pressure. I'm sorry, but he's screaming scum to me. Saying "Oh he's bold and brazen and scum don't do that" is just factually untrue.

I don't care how shaky his reads or reasoning were, the point is that he was committed to them and willing to charge headfirst into attacking shit and make himself the center of attention (didn't you townread shannon for that?), despite the heat he got for it. I'd expect scum!DH to be far more cautious, especially considering he doesn't have a huge amount of experience on the site yet (and no, that's not me making an argument based off his player title; it simply strengthens my point).

What? So shaky reads don't matter...? ok, well can you show me where at all he "committed" to them? The point i'm trying to get across to you is that he

didn't

commit to them. He had exactly one read he was pushing very hard, which was Shannon. He went with the "X is scum, vote them please" without reasoning early game schtick that almost always comes from scum. He seemed very sure of this read but then cited like ONE LINE OF ONE POST and said "oh this sounded too cautious" which is absolute bullshit.

The point is, though, that he IMMEDIATELY backtracked. As soon as the shannon wagon goes nowhere, he immediately backtracked and was like yeah I can get behind Algebra and just jumped on there. He hasn't really pushed her much after that. Not to mention, when you showed up Postie and voted ThinkBig, he immediately 180'd his townread on him and immediately started showing shade on him and calling him scum. If anything, Dark Horse is going with the flow as much as possible.

[Aeronaut]

@Postie are you scum reading Aeronaut?

What on Earth were the past few pages about then? The only thing I can come up with is that you are scum reading Aero and think that his read on me is fake. Is that what's going on?

Bingo.

Oh wow who could have guessed

And I'm not getting any sort of brazen or ballsy from his posts. What he's done today is tunnel Shannon for what seemed like little to no reason, and then gave us one of the thinnest lines of reasonings possible (see 89). And then he backpedalled and basically jumped on the next viable wagon which was algebra

To address your "I don't see how he's being ballsy":
1) Putting someone to L-1 early and without warning is ballsy for newbscum

Oh, jeeze, no it's not. 9/10 times, scum, especially new scum will put a player at L-1 because again, all they really know is that they need to end the day sooner rather than later. It's ballsy for newtown, because new town are almost always concerned with getting as much conversation as possible. New players don't usually have the capacity to fake that, so they instead vie for raising the lynch ASAP.

2) His tone in general is consistently aggressive - see posts like 44, 53, 84, 87, etc.

Ok, here's my problem with it though; save 44, all of those "aggressive tones" are being used only when he has to defend himself from me or someone else. Hardly ever is he being aggressive to push a player in those posts, it's just that he gets flustered and very angry when you start accusing him of things, which too reads as awfully scummy to me.

He has shown no aggression in trying to push other people, and still just jumps on whoever the bigger players (e.g. you and I) are voting. See his vote on Algebra, see his shade on Thinkbig, directly after each of us started moving that way. There's no actual original reads that he has besides those two town reads that he's since 180'd on anyway, and shannon who he's not pushing.

Oh yeah and I spotted this on my first readthrough but forgot about it:

There you go, I was wondering how long it was going to take for you to come out and actually say that I'm scum.

I don't have the words to explain it right now but this statement screams town to me.

.... I mean you took about 15 posts of throwing shade at me to admit that you find me scummy, so this is kind of a double standard.

[Aeronaut]

I would like to hear more from creature's slot before the day is through.

[Aeronaut]

...I know. I never said it did? These are posts that are about her activity, not 105. What are you talking about?

When I asked where she was encouraging discussion, I meant in post 105, because you said you liked it for encouraging discussion.

I think I said I liked shannon for encouraging discussion, and 105 just because she was giving stances when she didn't have to.

Ok, but in most of her posting, she seems to be very genuine to me, just as you somehow think that the handful of shitposts that Algebra calls an ISO is somehow genuine.

That doesn't mean much to me unless you explain

why

she sounds genuine. I can explain why algebra sounds genuine, but I want to focus on sorting you and getting your DH read straightened out.

I'll try to articulate why it sounds genuine if you do that for me with Algebra.

And if by "straightening out" my DH read you mean getting me to change my vote, then you're not going to accomplish that today. You've provided us with no other case on anybody else except for ThinkBig, which is minimal at best. You've also given me no points on why my reasoning on DH is wrong. I have a very solid case here and it's time that you join me on this wagon.

Feel free to tell me why I should vote otherwise, because you also haven't really bothered to do that.

AGAIN, she could have very easily been much less active and allowing the game the die instead of continually posting.

Sure, but posting nothing of significant value isn't really much better and could easily be scum busywork.

Ok, please and thank you tell me all the places in which Algebra's posts have any significant value. And it doesn't read as busywork to me, it reads like she has a pretty logical progression, where as someone like DH or Algebra is just throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks.

As far as I'm concerned, they're both new.

Someone with 1000+ posts and 7 completed games is not a newbie!

I mean maybe not by your standards, but by mine they are. Looking back at my seventh game, I was scum and had zero idea what to do.

What? So shaky reads don't matter...? ok, well can you show me where at all he "committed" to them? The point i'm trying to get across to you is that he

didn't

commit to them. He had exactly one read he was pushing very hard, which was Shannon. He went with the "X is scum, vote them please" without reasoning early game schtick that almost always comes from scum. He seemed very sure of this read but then cited like ONE LINE OF ONE POST and said "oh this sounded too cautious" which is absolute bullshit.

The point is, though, that he IMMEDIATELY backtracked. As soon as the shannon wagon goes nowhere, he immediately backtracked and was like yeah I can get behind Algebra and just jumped on there. He hasn't really pushed her much after that. Not to mention, when you showed up Postie and voted ThinkBig, he immediately 180'd his townread on him and immediately started showing shade on him and calling him scum. If anything, Dark Horse is going with the flow as much as possible.

He committed to to his stances in the moment, even if he didn't do so in the long term. I'll look into how his reads evolved a bit more though. Meanwhile, I'd like your thoughts on 198.

You didn't answer most of my points here. On reads, are you saying that you really think it's townie to abandon reads on a whim just because a wagon is forming?

[Aeronaut]

And if by "straightening out" my DH read you mean getting me to change my vote, then you're not going to accomplish that today. You've provided us with no other case on anybody else except for ThinkBig, which is minimal at best. You've also given me no points on why my reasoning on DH is wrong. I have a very solid case here and it's time that you join me on this wagon.

For supposedly not being a newbie you are dense as fuck

Look! He's Balsy and aggressive! He must be town postie.

I still also don't get why you think that that's at all AI.

[Aeronaut]

I thought I had replied to this before, guess not

I also like the way DH approaches Aero:

lol @ Aeronaut thinking I'm tunneling just because I'm actually trying to put some effort wrt a scum read

Aeronaut what are your reads

And if you answer "nothing solid" then you have no right to say that i'm tunneling

There you go, I was wondering how long it was going to take for you to come out and actually say that I'm scum. Trying to discredit me only to vote algebra was a bad move

Creature's town, thinkbig's slightly town

So I asked you this before, why is shannon town? It's annoying that instead of answering this you've tried to discredit my push instead. The fact that you asked me to clarify the hammering stuff, and then then tried attacking me for clarifying hammering stuff was terrible.

You can see his line of thought go
acknowledge Aero's criticism while thinking it's dumb -> become suspicious of Aero's motives and start questioning him -> openly and aggressively criticise Aero -> start to openly call into question Aero's motives

What I see in these posts is that I question Dark Horse for trying to look busy without providing anything new, and he gets immediately defensive and attacks ad hominem. Instead of giving reads or any source of reasoning, he says "WELL WHAT ARE YOUR READS!", and even implies that I don't have any which just isn't true as is evident by my posting immediately after.

The point of my posting was that Dark Horse called Shannon scum, saying everyone needs to pile on shannon, etc. Then, he makes a post later in the wagon saying he's not 100% sure and that she could be town? And then abandoned that read all together. So that's why I criticized that response.

It's three dimensional without being showy.

Please explain to me what you mean by this.

[Aeronaut]

Again postie, I don't see how you don't look at those four posts and see someone who trying to discredit me for pushing him, instead of actually responding to any of things I was asking.

[Aeronaut]

And here you are, now following what Postie is doing just like you were following my read of algebra.

Don't try to take any credit for that. algebra's posts since 99 are the scummiest content in this entire game. Anyone who didn't at least consider algebra scum was doing a poor job scumhunting. Notice how outside of creature's very early vote, no one aside from you was voting algebra before that. People who started suspecting algebra (such as me and shannon) did so primarily on the basis of algebra's wagon hopping and further interactions, which is very different than if we were trying to sheep you.

here you go

i really would like to lynch algebra tbh

i really would like to lynch algebra tbh

I can get behind this. 99 is janky as hell, plus the general lack of contribution

I would vote Algebra but I don't want anyone at L-1 yet. So onward up the list I go.

VOTE: Flames

@mod can we get a replacement for flames, he clearly doesn't give a shit about this game

VOTE: Algebra

This page of posts also underlines another reason why shannon looks town and you don't; you jump right onto algebra after I said I may want to lynch him. Shannon has the opportunity to and doesn't because there was still a slot who hadn't spoken. You're just sitting around waiting for something to jump on.

[Aeronaut]

... no it didn't. You're "push" on shannon to which you later admitted was just because you didn't feel good about one single post and had no real reasoning as to why; please point out any place where that generated any sort of discussion, because the only discussion I see that it created was me realizing you're likely scum this game

Are you fucking kidding me? My push on shannon was what started legitimate discussion in this thread. Me vs shannon and me vs you were the first legitimate debates in this thread. Before it was rvs and people saying "oh lets vote an inactive to pressure" and then preceding to do absolutely jack shit. Literally this entire postie-me-you discussion comes from what I've said. Compre that to shannon's read list. [/quote]
give me posts that you define as discussion that you created by voting Shannon without stating your reasoning.

The Postie discussion is coming from Postie, not you. We're just deciding whether to lynch you or not, and that's your main contribution to this conversation. I'm glad you've started to join and ask me things too instead of letting postie do all the work.

Please lay out a case for why she is scum. Also, can you tell me why you decided Algebra was more deserving of your vote than her when you switched? Thanks.

Why on earth would I lay out a case for you, considering the leaps and bounds of logic you're willing to take to say that she's town[/quote]
So you do not have a case. You understand that you're not helping anybody to understand why we should vote with you if you're not going to provide reasoning, right?

I already answered your second question multiple times including posts 121

Ok, you did. Would you say algebra is still the scummiest?

Ok, but in most of her posting, she seems to be very genuine to me, just as you somehow think that the handful of shitposts that Algebra calls an ISO is somehow genuine. AGAIN, she could have very easily been much less active and allowing the game the die instead of continually posting.

Her activity posts are among some of the laziest content you can attempt to provide in order to "look busy." They're more scummy than town, as it makes a person look like they're participating without actually having to produce any content.

Please show me some posts by Flames, Thinkbig, Algebra, you, or myself that are less lazy/genuine, because I don't see any.

What? So shaky reads don't matter...? ok, well can you show me where at all he "committed" to them? The point i'm trying to get across to you is that he didn't commit to them. He had exactly one read he was pushing very hard, which was Shannon. He went with the "X is scum, vote them please" without reasoning early game schtick that almost always comes from scum. He seemed very sure of this read but then cited like ONE LINE OF ONE POST and said "oh this sounded too cautious" which is absolute bullshit.

Do you not understand what pressure is? Day starts, I see shannon doing something somewhat scummy. Instead of being comtent with rvs voting or voting an inactive, I decide to try and get some pressure going, in order to get a better sense of whether shannon is town or scum.

Yeah, and that's fine, but my issue is that you refused to give me your thoughts on any other player, or to use anything of the reactions you got from pushing her. You push people and pressure them for reactions, but all you were doing was saying "Shannon is scum. Everyone should vote Shannon" which is helping nothing and nobody.

You're also claiming that I gave no reasons for inisitally voting, which is completely wrong.

VOTE: shannon

Found scum boys let's this game moving

VOTE: shannon

Found scum boys let's this game moving

What made you think Shannon is scum?

34 and 35 both sound way too cautious. That second line in 35 feels really forced

I gave reasons immediately after I voted. The only way you could have missed it is if you were trying to be reachy as fuck

That's a shady as fuck reason for how sure you were trying to make it seem. Either way, I'm more focused on the fact that you were trying to look busy and eventually backtracked anyway.

What would you say Shannon's alignment is now?

Not to mention, when you showed up Postie and voted ThinkBig, he immediately 180'd his townread on him and immediately started showing shade on him and calling him scum. If anything, Dark Horse is going with the flow as much as possible.

I said I'm not sure whether thinkbig's post is indicative dumbtown or dumb scum. There's a reason why I'm not voting him, and that's because I'm leaning towards dumb town more than dumb scum.

After looking back, you're right, you didn't explicitly call him scum, and that's my bad. You did tell me though that you had had a townread on him, and now you've sort of redacted that? What's your current read on him?

He has shown no aggression in trying to push other people, and still just jumps on whoever the bigger players (e.g. you and I) are voting. See his vote on Algebra, see his shade on Thinkbig, directly after each of us started moving that way. There's no actual original reads that he has besides those two town reads that he's since 180'd on anyway, and shannon who he's not pushing.

It's funny how when I was first pushing shannnon you were passive aggresively complaining about how I was tunneling her asking me stuff like "are you really going to tunnel for all of D1?" when it was lke the 2 or 3rd irl day and now suddenly I'm the one who's being too passive

Good thing you redacted the first part of this post where I say that 44 is an exception to that. As I've said, in what Postie cited as you being "aggressive", 3/4 of those posts were just you yelling and complaining because I was pushing you in the slightest way. Thats not aggression, it's flailing.

And I haven't been pushing shannon because I've been dealing with oushing algebra and now I have to deal with you

Again, you're the one that's commenting on the conversation I'm having with Postie. Feel free to go do whatever you want with Algebra. I still feel like he could be scum; if you want to present a case to me as to why he's worse the you, go ahead.

[Aeronaut]

Why am I always scumread gosh darn it going from a player that I pushed for being inactive to someone that I think is scum isn't even wagonhopping

Why did you only jump on thinkbig after creature suggested thinkbig scum first

@mod can we get a replacement for flames, he clearly doesn't give a shit about this game

VOTE: Algebra

Why did you only jump on thinkbig after creature suggested thinkbig scum first

I would've voted thinkbig regardless if creature did or not

Then why didn't you do it earlier

The primary purpose of these interactions was to determinne if algebra was noobtown or noobscum. I said that I'd be willing to lymch because nothing gets noobscum more nervous than more people being willing to lynch them. I found that algebra was unable to answer several questions that a noobtown would have probably been able to answer. What did you do again? Vote an inactive, and then say you'd love to lynch him with no reason give?

Yeah, but to me it feels like you didn't say anything about it until I was on board. As you can see from the shitstorm of quote-walls in this game, trying to get a lynch through that I don't agree with is going to be difficult, especially since we've got 7 people which is way too small to making dumb lynches. Granted, It's not like it was that long in between the time where Algebra puked all over the game and the time when I said he'd probably be a good lynch, so maybe I should give you a pass there.

What do you make of Postie's opposition to an Algebra lynch?

[Aeronaut]

Again postie, I don't see how you don't look at those four posts and see someone who trying to discredit me for pushing him, instead of actually responding to any of things I was asking.

You're questions were a thinly veiled attempt at discrediting my post without having to call me scum. Especially considering some if your questions (Asking me if I'm going to tunnel a read right after I decide to pursue it?), I was incredibly skeptical of your intentions

Postie just did a similar thing for about two pages on me, but I don't see you calling her out for it?

[Aeronaut]

It's four in the morning and I need to act in two shows tomorrow so I need to pick this up in the morning; Postie, the reason I'm asking you about your algebra reads in certain places is because I'm trying to show you that you're applying a double standard. You can't be asking me about every single thing I've said about Shannon and Dark Horse when you've got so much unexplained stuff on your own. I want to know why you think algebra is town, really. You had said before I think that Algebra reads to you as genuine. I feel like if you're going to ask me how I think Shannon feels genuine, you should have to answer that same thing about your read, especially since I'm scum reading that player and would like to hear why exactly you oppose that lynch

[Aeronaut]

It's three dimensional without being showy.

Please explain to me what you mean by this.

I'd expect newbscum, or anyone with DH's jumpy/aggressive character, to fake a push like this in a much more two-dimensional way by quickly/immediately blowing up at you and calling you scum. Instead, DH displays more of a gradient of suspicion, and does so in quite a subtle way rather than one which makes a show of his thought process.

What? In the span of four posts he discredits me, calls me scum, and basically says I'm shit player. You just described to me exactly my own reasoning for why he's scum. It's not a "gradient" if it's in the span of like 20 minutes

[Aeronaut]

I think a big reason we have such opposite reads is because I guess we see things as differently indicative. I don't remember if you're originally from offsite or maybe just have different experiences and play differently, but usually abandoning reads to jump onto a popular wagon is seen as scummy almost all of the time. "logical progression" or a clear thought process and actions is something that's almost always seen as very town-oriented; scum have a lot harder time explaining their reasoning for doing things or sometimes there's not a clear motivation or thought process involved because they're making up justifications as they go along.

[Aeronaut]

And that's theory you'all find anywhere

[Aeronaut]

back. reading the page I missed

[Aeronaut]

Sorry about this wall; it's a catchup one though.

Aero, it's completely natural for a towny to be suspicious of someone's motives for making a push on them. You know you're town, and especially when you're new you tend to be arrogant and assume everyone else should know it too, so you end up being intensely suspicious of anyone who questions that fact because

why are they trying to lynch a towny dammit

. This is what I'm seeing with DH, and the way he's going about it feels incredibly genuine because of the fact I can see several layers of thought and paranoia; I don't see why it matters if that's within a short span of time or not. I don't see him being able to fake this whole thing as scum.

I'll respond to the rest of this stuff in the morning.

So I read this and this is the first time you've made much sense to me this game, Postie.

I think my issue this game is that I've continued focusing on the few things that Dark Horse did in the first few pages, which I will stand by as looking really awful to me. From my perspective, its him pushing a new player to look busy, and overreacting to my critique of that. In addition, Shannon looked town to me right off the bat, and someone pushing her in that way made me assume he'd be scum.

What I've failed to do though is to analyze anything that came after, e.g. his defense of himself and his attack on me. I think some of his more recent posting is a lot better the more I look at it, in that the play style is changed from trying to look aggressive, more to actually looking at details / pushing with some sort of substance, e.g. actually trying to figure me out. I think I probably need to table my read on him now, because I'm still unsure. It also would be easier with more flip info, so tabled for now.

okay so wow reading all of this is painful, everything is just one or two lines. I really don't like that 90% of dissucssion between pages 6-9 are just postie/aero talking back and forth. I'm not entirely sure what to think about this interaction though. There's been quite a dominant force of aero/postie deciding where the game goes and I don't really like that at all. I haven't really seen any posts silencing anyone though, so I guess that's more on everyone else not posting.

I would like to hear more from algebra, as I feel his alignment will come rather naturally to everyone if he just posts more content. I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is. I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE, no one is really explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like. Or really sharing hard reads at all. I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

@postie With all the attention you've been giving to aero, do you still find TB to be your topscum?
@TB and algebra I'd really like to see both of your top town/scum reads in the game currently.

Besides the questions at the bottom, this opening post is a whole lot of nothing.

Aero, it's completely natural for a towny to be suspicious of someone's motives for making a push on them. You know you're town, and especially when you're new you tend to be arrogant and assume everyone else should know it too, so you end up being intensely suspicious of anyone who questions that fact because

why are they trying to lynch a towny dammit

. This is what I'm seeing with DH, and the way he's going about it feels incredibly genuine because of the fact I can see several layers of thought and paranoia; I don't see why it matters if that's within a short span of time or not. I don't see him being able to fake this whole thing as scum.

I'll respond to the rest of this stuff in the morning.

I will go further and say that not only does it seem genuine on DH's part, it'd be bad strategy if he's scum.

A cursory glance of my first five or ten posts in any game will show exactly the same behaviour he thinks he picked up here, i.e. I'm a bit weird and I don't know how to person in mafia yet. (Probably posts like this are not personing but let's just go with it). Not to mention, a quick look at my wiki would show that I've never been lynched. Unless the scum team are silly, or not doing any research, they'd have to know that I'm not a good target for a D1 quick wagon.

So - I think DH is town, and he is/was genuine in his assessment of me. The worrying thing to me was always that he is appearing to line up lynches based on my flip, and I'm a tad worried that he seems to be following the wagons. But! And this is the thing for me, if he is super new then he might not know that's a bad thing to do. I have certainly played town games where I have tried to look townier by following the leader, only to be scum read for perceived lack of reasoning behind my moves.

I'm pretty happy at this point with town reads on DH, Postie, and Aero, who I think is genuine in his town read on me. There'd be nothing to stop him backing off or just 'null' reading me, so the fact that he's even bothered to argue for me says 'town' at this point.

So, you have many town reads. Do you think anyone is scum?

Curious about your feelings on Wyv's opening, also.

So you do not have a case. You understand that you're not helping anybody to understand why we should vote with you if you're not going to provide reasoning, right?

Right now trying to convince people that shannon's scum is not a priority for me

That's fair.

Please show me some posts by Flames, Thinkbig, Algebra, you, or myself that are less lazy/genuine, because I don't see any.

Thinkbig's questions, Algebra's reads, this whole argument we're having. All of these do significantly more to progress the day than just complaining about inactivity.

I meant beforehand. Like when Shannon was making her posts, do you see anything that was any better?

Basically what I'm saying is that we were all being shitty and inactive at the beginning of the game and scum shannon could have just rode that.

What would you say Shannon's alignment is now?

She's been less scummy. I feel like a noobscum could have easily followed you in accusing me. The fact that she's willing to look at it from her own angle is very town.

Yeah. That's how I felt about it, too.

Postie just did a similar thing for about two pages on me, but I don't see you calling her out for it?

Postie has made much more of an effort to get her hands dirty than you had. She has also explained why she thinks I'm town, which is something you hadn't done. Do know how wack it is to see someone try to discredit approach without giving any in depth reasons for why he thinks my scumread's town?

Ok, now imagine the way you feel about me allegedly discrediting you, and reverse the situation. That's how I feel about that early posting.

What? In the span of four posts he discredits me, calls me scum, and basically says I'm shit player. You just described to me exactly my own reasoning for why he's scum. It's not a "gradient" if it's in the span of like 20 minutes

You're acting like I made those four posts in a row. They were all based on different lackluster responses that you had made over time. The 20 minutes remark is completely false. Anyone who has looked at that part of the thread knows this. Why are you making stuff up?

I don't recall saying them in a row. You just got angry when I pushed you, which generally is a scum tell so early on.

V/LA UNTIL MONDAY AROUND 3:30 PM EST

I will still be reading and will try to post during this time, but I will have limited access until then.

Wow gr8

For the record, I think Wyvernite's entrance sounded forced as hell too, but I find that a lot of newbies have a tendency to sound a bit forced so I'm hesitant to call him scum for it. I'm scumreading the slot by PoE though.

@shannon

- Why are you townreading Aero?

Idk. My gut says Aero's town but the last time I gut townread Aero he was scum so... someone help.

What game are you referring to?

Wyr's post to me reads as adding a bunch of non-AI stuff into a catchup (such as "silencing") to try to look like he's analyzing more than he is. I haven't read the rest of his posts yet, though

I'll get round to doing a case for town!algebra and responding to other stuff once my headache has died down a bit.

I would love to see this.

Aeronaut what ever happened to your algebra push?

Postie seems very sure that Algebra is town and I want to hear that reasoning first.

[Aeronaut]

more coming, taking out laundry

[Aeronaut]

allright so I had to stay late at work so I apologize for not getting to analyze as much of the thread today as I wanted to, but I'll throw in a really quick and dirty rundown of reads thus far

I'll start with my town of
AERO - The amount of detail that he's gone into all of his posts seems very indicative of town, and I don't see him being mafia at all, especially with the posts he constantly references to support his reads/questions

So... I'm town because I go into detail? I didn't realize all scum had a post restriction in which they had to be as vague as possible.

And Postie has been here going into what I can only describe as an absurd amount of detail. Why are you town reading me for that but scum reading her for it? I mean, you're town reading me for the wrong reasons here, and it's gross.

You haven't called me out at all, you've asked questions, there's a very large difference between the two, same goes for postie, I see scum I call them as such, there's no OMGUS here. I said that I found it easy to step into her shoes, not that I agreed with her reads. I see how she came to them though; don't go putting words in my mouth tyvm. Postie's defense on you boils down to "it feels town" or "it was ballsy, brazen, and aggressive" because that's the only way she can explain how you've been playing this game, and it shows. I'll provide my own reasons why you're a scummy scum scum in my next few posts, but again as I said I didn't have time to do full reads on everyone, I'm going to showcase aero's accusations which I believe to be a solid basis on why you're scum. so take your bs 0/2 post crap out of here.

I feel like you're literally taking the bare minimum of my original points to Postie and repeating them + focusing on Postie/Me/DH when none of those are really viable lynches right now.

[Aeronaut]

Also the fact that Wyv is literally giving an opinion on every other player that's not the two viable lynches

This is good

VOTE: Wyvernite

[Aeronaut]

What's the TB case?

[Aeronaut]

Also the fact that Wyv is literally giving an opinion on every other player that's not the two viable lynches

This is good

VOTE: Wyvernite

Yeah i'm sorry that this group has decided to put the 3 people with the least amount of posts on full fuckin blast. I have no reads on TB/Algebra, there's nothing there, not that I can read atleast. I see that you guys are putting up all sorts of reasons why one is town/mafia, I simply have yet to see enough amount of info from either to have reads that mean anything, I can arbitrarily throw scum/town around like everyone else here seems to be doing, but you won't catch me doing it.

ThingBig and Algebra both have 19 posts. You're really telling me there's nothing you can get out of either of them? The reason it's scummy is that you're avoiding our main two topics of conversation right now which generally is indicative of scum trying not to take responsibility, especially when we're 2 days out from DL. I've got news for you; you're not going to get a lynch on DH or Postie today.

If they had posted as much as Flames did, then I'd agree with you, but the fact that theres enough content there that the rest of the game feels comfortable doing paragraphs of analysis of and you are still acting like they're non-slots is awful.

I didn't know that people had to be lynch targets for me to ask questions and be inquisitive about it? When I was talking about people "silencing" this is exactly what I was talking about, and it coming from one of my top towns is very unsettling to say the least.

Nobody is silencing you.

In regards to taking the bare minimum and focusing on YOU/DH/postie. I'm definitely not focusing on you here at all, atleast in a scum sense I feel like that's what you're trying to insinuate here. Again, to use your argument, I didn't know there was a read restriction, where I can only focus on the people that are currently being wagoned? That seems scummy as all hell, my read on you is quickly flipping.

So I'm scum now?

Did you expect just because you were town reading me that I'd just agree with everything you said? That's a silly thought, even if you're scum.

and I don't like the fact that he basically admitted to sheeping shannon's reads.

If you're talking about 260, I believe he was saying he townread shannon for having similar reads to him (which, btw, is a terrible reason to townread someone), not that he was sheeping her. I don't see why sheeping someone would be scummy anyway though.

It feels like he's trying to piggyback off of a townie's reads, especially considering how little reads he's given publicly

@DH - I find it interesting that you're now referring to me as 'a townie'. It doesn't feel genuine.

To recap:

You super scum read me from the start of the game.

Someone calls you out and asks you to provide a case, so that you can convince them that I'm scum too. In 229 you respond by saying "Right now trying to convince people that shannon's scum is not a priority for me"

In the same post, you say I'm less scummy.

And now, in 278 with no further analysis, you refer to me as a 'townie'.

Can you please explain the thought process behind this change of read? Because it's looking pretty convenient to me.

I thought you read DH as town?

[Aeronaut]

Postie what is good about 285

[Aeronaut]

Eh. I don't know.

I still don't have much from you why we should be voting TB? Besides "he is lurking" I feel. I'm going to need more than that.

[Aeronaut]

I guess I do sort of get the viewpoint that between TB and Wyv, it will be at least easier to interact with Wyv tomorrow than TB who right now is a whole lot of nothing

[Aeronaut]

But besides that, not much

[Aeronaut]

Right but just because you're townreading everyone doesn't mean we all are

[Aeronaut]

Yeah.

UNVOTE:

[Aeronaut]

Not only is wyv signifigantly scummier

I'm going to have to strongly disagree here.

but a TB lynch gives us next to nothing.

If we lynch him today and he flips scum:

• algebra is cleared
  
• we're left with a pool of 4 people to choose between to lynch, all of which are actively posting

If we lynch him today and he flips town:

• we eliminate an unknown who was going to be lynched eventually anyway
  
• we don't have to keep get frustrated over the fact that he's not doing anything

If we don't lynch him today:

• we'll likely have to decide whether to lynch between him or algebra tomorrow, and if we choose wrong we lose
  
  
• that's not a choice I trust town with please let's not go there guys

The bolded makes a lot of sense to me.

[Aeronaut]

But Postie, do you have any other scum reads besides DH?

[Aeronaut]

back, reading up

[Aeronaut]

Excellent. Feeling better about townreading you.

Ok, first off, why does me agreeing with your point make me suddenly seem town to you?

1st Tier Lynchpool:

ThinkBig

⁴ /

shannon

⁴
2nd Tier Lynchpool:

Aeronaut

³
Townpool:

Dark Horse

¹ /

algebra

² /

Wyvernite

²

And you're saying I'm town, but I'm in your lynchpool.

What even are your points on shannon? I don't even remember you saying she's scum.

If wyv flips scum (which is what I'd suspect), then we'd have an extra mislynch. That scenario would also allow us to look at the possibility of algebra scum before a three man lylo, which sounds terrible

This is also a very, very good point.

If Wyvern is scum here he has zero understanding of basic scumplay and absolutely no common sense. Why isn't he trying to push through a lynch that isn't him? Why is he attacking some of the only people who stand any chance of being convinced to not lynch him?

That's indicative as scum, though, isn't it? Someone having nothing to base their arguments on so they just resort to defending themselves and not giving any real anything. At the very least, it's not town in any way.

He hasn't been pushing ThinkBig though. All he's done is expressed minor suspicion of him, and the same with algebra.

He has done absolutely nothing to try and make a lynch happen on either of them.

You understand that you're laying out a scum case, right? It's the

very fact

that he's talking and talking but saying a whole lot of nothing that should be raising red flags for you, but it isn't for some reason. I really don't understand.

Like, a townie is pushing for reads and trying to get somewhere, and you're literally admitting that Wyvern is doing the opposite of that. Why would you not be voting for him after recognizing this?

In addition to everything that put him in the spotlight, he's gone back to lurking while occasionally making a comment that he has no intention of following up. That's scummy as hell.

Yeah, honestly this.

Because he doesn't have to. Both of the lynches of substance behind them. Especially in the case of thinkbig's lynch, there's nothing he needs to do because of how hard you're gunning for it.

That's not how things were for the vast majority of the time he was sitting on his hands and letting things happen.

Again... sitting around and letting everyone else fight is exactly what scum does.

[Aeronaut]

Yeah.

Intent to hammer

Honestly Postie, besides the argument that it's going to be hard to deal with TB and Algebra tomorrow, I really don't agree with most of your defense of Wyrv right now. And that argument doesn't even really hold up anymore, because TB is back here posting right now. W flip gives us far, far more information than a TB one does right now, especially if he's scum which I'm honestly becoming more and more sure he probably is.

[Aeronaut]

In addition to that, how does sitting around and doing nothing = auto-town? It doesn't, that's how. And if it did, you could apply that same argument to ThinkBig, who also has sat around for the majority of the game and done nothing.

[Aeronaut]

Excellent. Feeling better about townreading you.

Also thinking about that scenario more closely - town has to choose between two lurkers. Even with a TB townflip, we'd at least be choosing between a lurker and someone giving us content to read them off.

Postie why is me disagreeing with you make me scum? Stop arguing ad hominem. I'm trying to understand you but that reasoning is NAI at best

[Aeronaut]

VC 1.7

D1 will end

Nov 17/16

or in

(expired on 2016-11-17 07:30:00)

No premature hammers please. I want the chance to finalise my thoughts after how messy everything's gotten.
Also TB promised a catch-up, and I want to read it.

I'll honor this though; I'll either hammer after A)TB finishes a catchup and B) Wyvern comes back to defend himself.

[Aeronaut]

i've got class until literally 6:30 but i'll be here after that.

[Aeronaut]

ok i'm back. Reading what I missed

[Aeronaut]

Why aren't we lynching thinkbig

What a waste of a player slot

[Aeronaut]

Ok, honestly.

@ThinkBig.

You're going to get in here and give us a full reads list before deadline hits, or I'm going to lynch you instead. Tell me exactly who is town, who is scum, and your reasoning why. No more beating around the bush.

[Aeronaut]

Aero, I need you to explain to me why TB should be kept alive today, and what that means for day 2. How, exactly, are we going to figure out whether or not TB should live or die tomorrow?

The above post is the answer to your question.

[Aeronaut]

And by before deadline, I actually mean that I want it tonight before midnight, because I don't know about my availability tomorrow and I'm not risking a NL.

[Aeronaut]

that's not a reads list, so doesn't meet criterion

[Aeronaut]

Criteria?*

[Aeronaut]

Criterion.**

[Aeronaut]

Yeah, but what if it's a readslist with incredibly lazy reasoning like that?
I really don't want TB to scrape through today with something along the lines of "X is town for saying a lot of detailed things; Y is scum because they're lurking."

to be fair, Wyrv's reads list was literally that.

[Aeronaut]

AERO - The amount of detail that he's gone into all of his posts seems very indicative of town, and I don't see him being mafia at all, especially with the posts he constantly references to support his reads/questions
Shannon - I currently believe that Shannon and I's thought processes are very similar, and being able to step into her shoes and see the game through her eyes makes me very happy in my read with her currently.

[Aeronaut]

back on point thought, I'm pretty good at telling bullshit from actual reads. I'll be able to tell, here, too.

[Aeronaut]

welcome to me

[Aeronaut]

Thinkbig are you around

[Aeronaut]

Should I give him more time? What do you think?

I think it's pretty likely he lurks his way through tbh

[Aeronaut]

They have until I get home from work

[Aeronaut]

Okay, so were there specific things people said that persuaded you to read people are certain way? If so, what were they?

[Aeronaut]

How long will you be driving?

Postie, asserting that Shannon and I are scum together just because we're being townread makes negative sense

[Aeronaut]

Where the fuck's algebra is what I want to know

[Aeronaut]

Postie do you think Shannon and I are scum together? Please don't avoid the question.

[Aeronaut]

Because while that's a pretty shifty read shift, you've been shifting your read on me just as much. Why is what you're doing any more justified?

[Aeronaut]

And you also left out the part of that where you're already lining up lynches if TB flips town.

[Aeronaut]

Postie do you think Shannon and I are scum together? Please don't avoid the question.

I think any combination of you/shannon/TB is possible. I see a you-shannon team as possible but unlikely.

So if TB is town, your unlikely scenario is 100% confirmed?

And you also left out the part of that where you're already lining up lynches if TB flips town.

Why's this scummy? I have a scumpool and I intend to lynch in it.[/quote]
Because it sounds like you already know what alignment he is.

[Aeronaut]

Like what if he's town? Then what?

[Aeronaut]

Because while that's a pretty shifty read shift, you've been shifting your read on me just as much. Why is what you're doing any more justified?

[Aeronaut]

@ Postie

[Aeronaut]

because I hate your motivations behind it

[Aeronaut]

Idk. It's pretty clear to me that he's not going to contribute much more even when pressured. If I take you out of the equation, it does make more sense to keep Wyrn for sorting tomorrow. Otherwise we're left with Algelurk and WIFOM-big


p-edit gr8

[Aeronaut]

Yeah fuck it.

VOTE: Thinkbig

If he's scum we can clear Postie and then I don't have to think about her for the rest of the game

[Aeronaut]

Thank fuck.

Spoiler:

Dear Fuck,

Hello friend! It has sure been awhile, hasn't it? How have you been? The kids? How's florida treating you? I always get jealous when I think of you living in the tropics!

Anyway, I'm writing to you to thank you. Not just for all you've done for me, but for simply being you. You light up my day, fuck. You really bring out the best in me! I think that goes for all of us; all the time, I hear our friends saying, "boy do I miss fuck. He was such a cool guy."

But alas, I digress. Mostly, I wanted to just hear about you; how everything is going. Make any progress on that novel? I know things have busy with the kids starting school and everything, but in the blink of an eye, those little fucks will be grown up and off the college, and then you'll have no excuse to finish that book! I've actually got a few connections in a publishing company up here, so maybe you should stop by and come visit! You know it would mean the world to bobby, after, well, the incident. Anyway, fuck, I'd better be off; there's laundry to do and life to attend to. I hope you have a fun, safe, and happy fucking holiday. I hope to hear back from you soon, fuck!

Sincerely,

Shit

[Aeronaut]

TB were you town?

[Aeronaut]

well

[Aeronaut]

Yeah Wyv is the play

[Aeronaut]

fuck

[Aeronaut]

Think big if you ever want to Hydra, I would be happy to

[Aeronaut]

[there is also Hydra academy!]

[Aeronaut]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=67817

[Aeronaut]

Where are you walking home from

[Aeronaut]

Make mafia great again, and lynch TB, and may God bless Micro 657.

I was so close to lynching Wyrv on this MAGA alone but then I was like no bad Aero don't be petty but moral of the story is always be petty

[Aeronaut]

@Aristo that's so nice! that's honestly my life goal is to be good enough friends with my colleagues that we go out for drinks after

[Aeronaut]

Sure! Boston is rad. There's all kinds of great food and sports teams and boat rides!

[Aeronaut]

I'm in Amherst right now though for college, so I'm more in western Mass which is... quieter

[Aeronaut]

Oh my friend went there. He plays Basketball for them

[Aeronaut]

Cool !!

[Aeronaut]

Postie, what are you reads now that TB flipped town.

Are you scum?

[Aeronaut]

Wait you're saying Postie was manipulating me?

I don't get that.

[Aeronaut]

I really don't know what to think of you right now. I was hard town reading before, but the more I look at you the more I don't understand your motivations for a lot of what your saying. Hard townread on Algebra and Wyrv makes zero sense from your perspective. The push on Thinkbig with minimal reasoning besides POE... etc.

I don't know. I'm really paranoid that I'm confbiasing with you and need to give you an actual look.

[Aeronaut]

So you're that sure on a Postie/Wyrvern scumteam?

What about Algebra?


pedit: @Shannon

[Aeronaut]

@shannon what makes Postie worse than Wyrver or Algebra or myself for you?

[Aeronaut]

Hard townread on Algebra and Wyrv makes zero sense from your perspective.

Why? I covered both in detail.

But it doesn't make any sense to me. I'll go back and find things that I'm talking about, hold on

[Aeronaut]

@shannon what makes Postie worse than Wyrver or Algebra or myself for you?

Never mind, you answered this.

[Aeronaut]

So what I don't understand is Postie's progression on Wyrv. See below.

I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is. I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE, no one is really explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like. Or really sharing hard reads at all. I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

There's plenty to comment on so far. Do some ISOs, tell me what you think of my reasons for townreading DH, etc.

This is a null interaction, first off.

For the record, I think Wyvernite's entrance sounded forced as hell too, but I find that a lot of newbies have a tendency to sound a bit forced so I'm hesitant to call him scum for it. I'm scumreading the slot by PoE though.

Here is her soft defending him, but then calling him scum anyway? She mentions that his entrance is forced, and she'd be right. Then says it's NAI. Ok. But then she's scum reading him by POE?

If I were scum in Wyvern's position, and I had to make a list of everyone that I most and least wanted dead, that would pretty much be it.

Gj Wyv

Here Postie calls out Wyrv as scum.

I wouldn't hate a Wyv lynch, but I think my preference is still for a ThinkBig lynch right now, just because algebra has been latched onto ThinkBig all game so a scumflip there basically clears him.

Here, she's moved to "not hating" a Wyv lynch. Still pushing ThinkBig on POE, but mentioning that she still would lynch Wyrv. Granted, Postie here says that Thinkbig flipping scum would clear algebra; Ok, so since TB has flipped Town,

@Postie[/b[ what do you think of Algebra now?

As of 285 I strongly oppose a Wyvernite lynch. More to come.

Wyv, if you don't want to be today's lynch you'll vote ThinkBig.

And then right as Wyrv is gaining traffic, Postie is suddenly in strong opposition.

I don't see the utility in Wyv flipping his read on Aero. It looks very much like he doesn't care about making allies that will oppose his lynch; he's managed to make an enemy of half the town by now due to the way he's evolved his reads on people. And he hasn't been actively pursuing another wagon that's likely to go through instead of his own.

The paranoia about "silencing" pings me as

extremely

town also.

When I was talking about people "silencing" this is exactly what I was talking about, and it coming from one of my top towns is very unsettling to say the least.

You're pushing scum on me for bringing up people who aren't being focused currently. You are trying to get me to not talk about them.

This is what doesn't make sense to me now looking back; Why does Wyrvernite changing his read on me suddenly make him town? Literally what happened is that he hard townread me for no reason besides my posts being "detailed". I called him out on it, and *suddenly* he was scum reading me for disagreeing with him. Somehow, some way, that is reasoning for Postie's excuse to hard-townread him for the rest of the game.

He's now looking at algebra, the other person "up for lynch today". That looks like pursuing another wagon to me

He's not done anything to convince anyone to vote someone who isn't him. That's the bottom line.

Not doing anything to convince anyone that someone else is scum, is not Town-play, and not a real argument.

Not only is wyv signifigantly scummier

I'm going to have to strongly disagree here.

but a TB lynch gives us next to nothing.

If we lynch him today and he flips scum:

• algebra is cleared
  
• we're left with a pool of 4 people to choose between to lynch, all of which are actively posting

If we lynch him today and he flips town:

• we eliminate an unknown who was going to be lynched eventually anyway
  
• we don't have to keep get frustrated over the fact that he's not doing anything

If we don't lynch him today:

• we'll likely have to decide whether to lynch between him or algebra tomorrow, and if we choose wrong we lose
  
• that's not a choice I trust town with please let's not go there guys

Nothing on here made/makes any sense besides the content part.

Like I can already see the entire game going down the drain from here if this lynch goes through.

And now you're still hard defending him. This doesn't make sense.

[Aeronaut]

I think it's a similar feeling with algebra but I have to look back again and check.

[Aeronaut]

But I still don't know about Postie.

[Aeronaut]

Honestly, the fact that Wyrv has been absolutely silent today, mixed with the kill makes me feel like he makes the most sense to lynch today.

[Aeronaut]

We do have time.

But it's still bothersome that he's not around

[Aeronaut]

I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is. I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE, no one is really explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like. Or really sharing hard reads at all. I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

There's plenty to comment on so far. Do some ISOs, tell me what you think of my reasons for townreading DH, etc.

This is a null interaction, first off.

If it's null, why mention it? Are you drawing any conclusions from this? Did someone suggest it

wasn't

a null interaction? What are you trying to say by pointing this out?

Because in a game this small, null/unimportant interactions are usually what scum are going to use to interact with their team.

For the record, I think Wyvernite's entrance sounded forced as hell too, but I find that a lot of newbies have a tendency to sound a bit forced so I'm hesitant to call him scum for it. I'm scumreading the slot by PoE though.

Here is her soft defending him, but then calling him scum anyway? She mentions that his entrance is forced, and she'd be right. Then says it's NAI. Ok. But then she's scum reading him by POE?

The question marks seem to indicate this confuses you. What about "I disagree that X is a good reason to scumread this player, but I scumread them regardless because of Y" is confusing you?

Because you're hardcore wavering on it; you're struggling to give a real stance on him.

Here, she's moved to "not hating" a Wyv lynch. Still pushing ThinkBig on POE, but mentioning that she still would lynch Wyrv. Granted, Postie here says that Thinkbig flipping scum would clear algebra; Ok, so since TB has flipped Town,

@Postie[/b[ what do you think of Algebra now?

Why would TB's townflip change my opinion of algebra? I said that I'd be able to draw conclusions from a TB scumflip, not

any

flip.

So null?

Do you have any opinion of algebra whatsoever?

The reason I asked is because, if you feel so strongly that a TB scum flip

CLEARS

Algebra, doesn't it make sense for a TB town flip to give some sort of impactful read as well?

I don't see the utility in Wyv flipping his read on Aero. It looks very much like he doesn't care about making allies that will oppose his lynch; he's managed to make an enemy of half the town by now due to the way he's evolved his reads on people. And he hasn't been actively pursuing another wagon that's likely to go through instead of his own.

The paranoia about "silencing" pings me as

extremely

town also.

When I was talking about people "silencing" this is exactly what I was talking about, and it coming from one of my top towns is very unsettling to say the least.

You're pushing scum on me for bringing up people who aren't being focused currently. You are trying to get me to not talk about them.

This is what doesn't make sense to me now looking back; Why does Wyrvernite changing his read on me suddenly make him town? Literally what happened is that he hard townread me for no reason besides my posts being "detailed". I called him out on it, and *suddenly* he was scum reading me for disagreeing with him. Somehow, some way, that is reasoning for Postie's excuse to hard-townread him for the rest of the game.

I like the part where you ignore that I gave

It looks very much like he doesn't care about making allies that will oppose his lynch; he's managed to make an enemy of half the town by now due to the way he's evolved his reads on people.

three

And he hasn't been actively pursuing another wagon that's likely to go through instead of his own.

other

The paranoia about "silencing" pings me as

extremely

town also.

reasons.

Those are reasons I refuted already, so I didn't feel like being redundant. I probably should have just kept it anyway, though.

Not doing anything to convince anyone that someone else is scum, is not Town-play, and not a real argument.

It's not pro-town, certainly, but anti-town = scummy is fallacy and you know it. The question should be whether it: a) helps or hurts his wincon as scum, and b) whether the answer to a) matches his perception of the action.

When you're scum, not pushing for someone else to be lynched while you are being lynched is blatantly detrimental to your wincon

, and therefore more likely to come from a town mindset because it's unlikely that someone would knowingly play against their win condition.

First off; I'm not saying it's just anti-town. It's scum-indicative, and you know that, Postie. Sitting around, providing no new reads or intel on anything is so very scum-motivated; it allows the player to look busy and townie without having to provide any real reads or stances, because in a game this small most of those stances would be bullshit anyway.

Nothing on here made/makes any sense besides the content part.

Why?

Again... I've stated why above like four times at this point. Please read the above.

And now you're still hard defending him. This doesn't make sense.

Why?

Because.... how could you hard-defend anyone at this point? Aren't you paranoid of anyone?

Like I can say that I'm

pretty

sure that Shannon is town, but I still don't fucking know for sure. You're here acting like you've got it solved

[Aeronaut]

why won't you give me a read on algebra

math is not a read.

[Aeronaut]

Your argument isn't that he had stances though, it's just that he didn't want to vote and somehow that makes him town

[Aeronaut]

Stances aren't stances if there's nothing to back them up; also, he provided no stances on the two people who were the leading wagons, TB and algebra.

So no, it really doesn't.

[Aeronaut]

Honestly fuck this

VOTE: Wyrv

[Aeronaut]

He's definitely scum. When he flips scum, please lynch Postie tomorrow.

[Aeronaut]

Or you just killed him ready to make that argument?

[Aeronaut]

Or maybe he didn't agree with your shitty Aero-is-scum-with-shannon narrative so your option was to kill him

[Aeronaut]

Either way, you're scum, Wyrv is scum.

[Aeronaut]

If anyone wants a case beyond that here it is:

Find me a single sentence in Aero's ISO that's indicative of a town mindset.

One.
Single.
Sentence.

Spoiler: townie posts

VOTE: Thinkbig

I also think the cubs are great and therefore you are pandering to my opinion and are scum

I make everything complicated

Prod received, drunk now, will comment tommoorre

RVS being over.

I am kind of townreading shannon and Dark House. I wanted to get out of the RVS.

How does town-reading Shannon and Dark Horse make algebra votable in your eyes?

Creature how are you townreading shannon

If I had to guess it's because I played my first scum game with him, so he knows what to look for (I'm new here, only 2 scum games so far).

VOTE: shannon

Found scum boys let's this game moving

34 and 35 both sound way too cautious. That second line in 35 feels really forced

What makes you think that it's not just newbie caution?

Dude I literally answered your first question earlier today. Try to actually

comprehend

stuff before asking questions

If someone hammered her at L-1 right now then they've basically admitted that they're scum.

So... if you think she's scum, then why does someone lynching her mean they're scum? Shouldn't it be the opposite?

@Dark Horse do you have any other reads besides Shannon or do you plan to ride that tunnel all the way through D1 ?

Are you saying that to me or yourself because you quoted yourself

I mean, it's not busy if I'm getting something out of it.

a better way I could have asked is, is algebra a serious vote for you? Do you scumread him?

Any particular posts that seem town from Dark Horse and shan?

P-edit @ creature



@DH- so you still think she's scum? I was getting a strong town vibe from her.

She hasn't said anything that changes my opinion. How are you getting a strong town vibe

Ok, so Dark Horse is still harping on about shannon and the pros and cons of putting someone at L-1 right now, complaining that we need to see more of the day first, but while simultaneously contributing nothing but D1 theory play.

Meanwhile, half the game is mute.

So, I'm going to ask you for the second time, do you have reads besides Shannon?

VOTE: Algebra

You also have contributed nothing so far besides wanting to lynch flames for lurking. What do you think about the game right now?

k

I guess I assumed that Flames was gonna get replaced, but if he's back, I'd love to hear what you have to say also

Flames682 - Null
ThinkBig - Null
Creature - NullTown
Algebra - Lean Scum
Shannon - Town
Dark Horse - Scum

If you're curious how my scale works, it goes

ConfScum

>>

Scum

>>

Lean Scum

>>

NullScum

>>Null>>

Nulltown

>>

Lean Town

>>

Town

>>

Conftown

Oh, I thought I'd answered that question before.

Shannon seems town to me, because as someone who has ICed and SEed and in general been in a lot of Newbie games, her cautiousness and approach to the game screams newtown to me. It's also exactly how I acted in my first few games as town, so I guess that gives me positive vibes from here. As you can probably imply, when someone comes in and started pushing a new player that looks town, using bullshit reasons looks shady as fuck to me.

To me, you just look like you're trying to look busy, which is also something that a few players are doing here. They difference is that you continue to divert away from giving me any sort of reads and are just like SHANNON IS SCUM BECAUSE SHE'S TOO CAUTIOUS!!!, when at the same time you're the one telling everyone that we shouldn't be putting anyone to L-1 because "we need more day discussion!"

Which is something I would normally agree with, but the fact that you said that, and then continued pushing the same person in posts such as "vote shannon, she's scum" with no other real content kind of makes me thing that you're posting to us about why we should have MORE DISCUSSION in an effort to look like town.

Town reads are incredibly important at any stage of the game. Which players do you read as town?

i really would like to lynch algebra tbh

back reading

i really would like to lynch algebra tbh

why what no why

Im with a thinkbig wagonVOTE: thinkbig

Probably because you've jumped on a wagon just because it's a wagon?

Creature is giving reads (even if they're fairly naked ones) and trying to encourage activity so again, town-for-now

In what ways is creature encouraging activity? I really don't have any impression of him yet this game which is bothering me. What do you see that I don't?

Algebra's ISO looks scummy so far, with the wagon hopping, but I don't know whether scum would be that obvious? He is even newer than I am so maybe it's newbie scum and the partner isn't around to give advice? Null leaning slightly to scum

Um... why are you assuming scum have day talk?

I would vote Algebra but I don't want anyone at L-1 yet. So onward up the list I go.

VOTE: Flames

Well what's the issue with putting people at L-1? I don't get your reluctance here.

I was still sorting out the game

Gr8

Skimmed the game; Dark Horse is probably town, can't tell if algebra is newbtown or newbscum. More to come in a few hours.

Hi Postie! What makes you think that Dark Horse is town, because I don't see that very much.

As much as I hate posts like 110, 122, and 126, and can see why he got run up, overall I'm leaning newbtown on algebra now. I feel like I can sort-of see a thought process behind his posts maybe? The fact he isn't making a show of it and instead refuses to elaborate on anything feels like stubborn town. I do not endorse this wagon.

VOTE: ThinkBig

This is much better.

See, I feel though that Algebra's doing nothing to sort the game, and just is joining whatever wagon. Up to this point, TB looked really newbtown to me. Was there something else that made you think differently or is it like just how he posts

Spoiler: Catch Up Wall, FOS on Algebra and Creature

I am kind of townreading shannon and Dark House. I wanted to get out of the RVS.

You never answered my question. Why were you town reading shannon and Dark Horse despite the lack of activity and posts from those two?

ThinkBig why did you wait until now to vote creature

Mostly to try and get some activity going.

Shannon's scum though, there's no need for "empty votes" right now

See above.

VOTE: Dark Horse This isn't an OMGUS because he's targeting me, it's a vote on someone who's lining up lynches in a pretty scummy way

I agree with this.

Leaning on Flames + ThinkBig (algebra as third candidate), but not sure if both scum would lurk like hell.

Why me and why flames? Flames was just replaced and really hasn't posted much before. I'd love to see your justification for this.

Im with a thinkbig wagonVOTE: thinkbig

This is scummy. Hopping on a wagon without giving any reason for it.

Algebra is at L-1 and so I won't vote or hammer.

This looks like newtown to me. I feel like he'd have hammered or at least intended to hammer here otherwise. Idk

@Postie how can you tell that Alegebra is 'newbie town' but scum read Think Big, who has the same level of newbiness?

Because algebra feels like he's actually thinking and just being obstinate, whereas Think Big feels like he isn't thinking at all due to the fact he's saying a lot of things without forming any opinions.

I really feel the complete opposite. TB's posting is almost identical to what I see from new town when I'm ICing, where most new scum just kind of are afraid to do anything but let their partner do the talking.

Postie, Shannon are both town as fuck by the way

because it would have been really easy for you to come in and say "Yeah I agree Algebra is scum" and just intent to hammer, and most people in this game wouldn't suspect you for it

[post=ie, Shannon]
[Think Big,
[Creature]
[Algebra, Dark Horse]

I think postie and shannon are pretty easily town for now. Think Big is leaning pretty town for me too.

Creature I don't know yet. I'd like him to contribute more. Still retain my scum read of Dark Horse, and Algebra has done little to make me think he's town

because it would have been really easy for you to come in and say "Yeah I agree Algebra is scum" and just intent to hammer, and most people in this game wouldn't suspect you for it

What makes you think I'm not scum white knighting?

Because again... it makes so much less sense for scum-you to come in and derail the lynch, or at least it does from my perspective. I've also seen your scum play, and this doesn't feel like it.

And why are you townreading shannon so strongly?

Posts like this:

@Aeronaut Re: 157 (because I still can't work out how to break up big quotes)

1) Creature gave me the impression that he was participating and encouraging others to do so, if only by doing things like saying RVS was ended, and throwing out reads that seemed to encourage response or more questioning. I agree it's not the strongest read in the world, for sure, but at that point in the game it was 'enough'.

2) I don't necessarily mean that scum have day talk, but isn't it fairly normal that scum get to have a wee chat before the day starts? I don't know how usual it would be for scum to get day talk in a game this small, or even, is there likely to be more than one scum to look for?

3) I don't like L-1ing someone if I'm not happy for them to be hammered. I do it occasionally (and sometimes accidentally), but at this early stage in the game I think it's not the right time. Especially if the candidate is a newbie. If say, you or Creature had done enough scummy stuff that I thought you were worthy of a vote, and you failed to defend yourself to the newbies in the game, then I'd L-1 for sure. I guess I'm trying to leave room for newbie error. (Though given that I'm a newbie, that might be an error on my part, too).

Shannon is pretty clearly articulating her logic and progression here, and telling us the specifics of her thinking. I don't feel like it'd be this clear or make this much sense without a plethora of excuses had she had to fabricate these reasons.

@Aeronaut Re: 157 (because I still can't work out how to break up big quotes)

1) Creature gave me the impression that he was participating and encouraging others to do so, if only by doing things like saying RVS was ended, and throwing out reads that seemed to encourage response or more questioning. I agree it's not the strongest read in the world, for sure, but at that point in the game it was 'enough'.

I guess compared to the amount of inactivity in the game, Creature's activity is higher than the norm

2) I don't necessarily mean that scum have day talk, but isn't it fairly normal that scum get to have a wee chat before the day starts? I don't know how usual it would be for scum to get day talk in a game this small, or even, is there likely to be more than one scum to look for?

The reason it's confusing me is that you said it like you thought people were getting coached.

3) I don't like L-1ing someone if I'm not happy for them to be hammered. I do it occasionally (and sometimes accidentally), but at this early stage in the game I think it's not the right time. Especially if the candidate is a newbie. If say, you or Creature had done enough scummy stuff that I thought you were worthy of a vote, and you failed to defend yourself to the newbies in the game, then I'd L-1 for sure. I guess I'm trying to leave room for newbie error. (Though given that I'm a newbie, that might be an error on my part, too).

Fair, but people have to be pushed some time.


P-edit yeah postie I owe you more than that, one moment

Because again... it makes so much less sense for scum-you to come in and derail the lynch, or at least it does from my perspective.

Why?

Because I wasn't here really and this game is filled with newbies who wouldn't care either way. You're scum, you don't want to prolong the day, yea?

I've also seen your scum play, and this doesn't feel like it.

Elaborate.

From what I saw in word sneak, you as scum took a backseat role and let the town kind of hash each other out. Here you're making a show of yourself.

Posts like this:

Give me an example from before you gave your read on her please.

105. Pretty good example from what I'm talking about. New scum doesn't make that post.

I actually townread shannon for the same reasons I've decided you're town, she's incredibly present and in the spotlight, asking people to get prodded / be more active in general. If that doesn't scream new town I don't know what does.

So my vote is not going to think big I don't think, unless postie decides to present any sort of case on that besides what's in 151.

Postie why in the world do you think DH is town?

Because I wasn't here really and this game is filled with newbies who wouldn't care either way. You're scum, you don't want to prolong the day, yea?

Unless it gets me towncred. If enough people are gunning for an algebra lynch already, he'd just end up being lynched another day anyway so what does it matter to me?

Because why allow there to be time for interactions to happen with you? We're in a 7p game. You'd think scum would be aiming to end the day quick and pretty much rob town of any sort of real interaction. I feel like that'd cripple town?

From what I saw in word sneak, you as scum took a backseat role and let the town kind of hash each other out. Here you're making a show of yourself.

Backseat role? Were we reading the same game? I deathtunneled the shit out of my partner.

Not in your entrance.

105. Pretty good example from what I'm talking about. New scum doesn't make that post.

Aero, that's a goddamn basic list of safe as fuck reads, with a sentence of justification for each. I'm not sure what I'm missing here, but you should probably point it out to me. You're better than this.[/quote]
I mean I don't know what game you're reading, but we're on page 7 right now. If you expect a full reads list with detailed analysis at this point, I don't know what to tell you? Shannon has contributed the most to the game in my opinion out of any other player at that point[/quote]

Postie why in the world do you think DH is town?

His posts read as brazen, ballsy, and unfiltered. Certainly not the kind of attitude I'd expect a fumbling newb like him to be able to fake.
I'm as baffled by your scumread on him as you allegedly are of my townread.

What are you talking about? Dark Horse has been around since 2010?

And I'm not getting any sort of brazen or ballsy from his posts. What he's done today is tunnel Shannon for what seemed like little to no reason, and then gave us one of the thinnest lines of reasonings possible (see 89). And then he backpedalled and basically jumped on the next viable wagon which was algebra

in fact

VOTE: DarkHorse

This is a hell of lot better lynch tbh

Because why allow there to be time for interactions to happen with you? We're in a 7p game. You'd think scum would be aiming to end the day quick and pretty much rob town of any sort of real interaction. I feel like that'd cripple town?

Sure, but... you don't think that'd make me look scummy as all heck?

No... as I said, everyone in this game really seemed fine with it at the time. So, no. This is a game of mostly newbies and me, who can't read shit.

Do you want to keep debating why you're town in circles or would you like to answer some of my questions please?

I mean I don't know what game you're reading, but we're on page 7 right now. If you expect a full reads list with detailed analysis at this point, I don't know what to tell you? Shannon has contributed the most to the game in my opinion out of any other player at that point

You're completely sidestepping the issue. You said 105 was a good example of "what you were talking about" without saying what that meant, and that it made you townread shannon. I pointed out that I couldn't see anything special whatsoever about that post. Now you're saying "well, there's nothing

bad

about the post and shannon has contributed a lot" which completely misses the point.

So I'll ask again:

what's so special about post 105

? Why does it make you townread shannon?

Please tell me where I ever said there was nothing bad about the post? Again, what are you talking about?

As I've said, 105 is a reads list where one wasn't really required. It's pretty good considering the amount of information the game had on page five. If that same reads list was posted in twenty pages, I'd probably have a different viewpoint.

105 is a great example of what I was talking about because while most of the people in this game were sitting back twirling their thumbs, shannon is putting out posts like that that actually give any sort of stance.

As I've said, 105 is a reads list where one wasn't really required. It's pretty good considering the amount of information the game had on page five. If that same reads list was posted in twenty pages, I'd probably have a different viewpoint.

So it's just the fact that it was unprompted? I guess I'll make a note of that for any future games with you where I'm scum; early readslist = instatowncred, sweet.

Literally, yes. I don't know why that's so hard for you to get right now.

Let's break it down so any living human can understand. It is ~page 5. There is almost nothing going on in this game (which is my fault just as much as it is everyone elses). Shannon, even though every single other player is lurking the hell out of this, continues to post her thoughts on players and on the game and makes a decent effort to get people to become more active. If this were a more experienced player, I'd say yea, that's easy to fake. But I just don't see someone who is new to the game going against the grain and continuing being the center of attention. It doesn't make sense to actively get the game going again from a scum perspective. It shouldn't take you five posts to understand that.[/quote]

quote got fucked up :/

It's absolutely alignment indicative, you just have to know in what ways.

I'm not going to assume all lurking people are scum, but I'm going see people who contribute when they could have easily continued lurking as town.

Are you trying to say Shannon is scum?

Shannon, even though every single other player is lurking the hell out of this, continues to post her thoughts on players and on the game and makes a decent effort to get people to become more active.

Where is she encouraging activity?

Have you read the game yet? Specifically I'd say 45, 60, 77, 113 and admittedly I had thought she was the one that asked for me and Flames to be prodded, and I guess I'm wrong about that since I can't find that in the ISO.

If this were a more experienced player, I'd say yea, that's easy to fake. But I just don't see someone who is new

"Mafia Scum"
She has enough experience. Join dates mean very little.

Which reminds me...

That's your opinion, Postie. Join dates mean a lot to most of us on-site. New players follow the same patterns almost every time. You don't have to believe me, but we're not lynching Shannon today. Or TB for that matter.

What are you talking about? Dark Horse has been around since 2010?

Missed this earlier. Note his player title please - Mafia Goon. That in combination with the general "I barely know what I'm doing" vibe he gives off makes him firmly a newb in my eyes.

Ok.... Then if you really believe that join dates mean very little, why are you trying to use that to tell me that DH is town?

And, barring the argument that his player title is at all Alignment Indicative, lets be less general here. You think that he's "bold and brazen." What about my other points? Why ignore those? His tunneling on shannon to look busy, and the reasoning was so paper thin there anyway. He refused to give any sort of reads and just knee jerk attacked me when I gave a lick of pressure. I'm sorry, but he's screaming scum to me. Saying "Oh he's bold and brazen and scum don't do that" is just factually untrue.

to the game going against the grain and continuing being the center of attention. It doesn't make sense to actively get the game going again from a scum perspective. It shouldn't take you five posts to understand that.

What part of that post went "against the grain"? What part of it made her the center of attention? What part of it opened her up to criticism or wasn't safe as fuck?[/quote] she gave stances while your slot had posted an RVS vote and nothing more[/quote]

Are you trying to say Shannon is scum?

Absolutely not.

So you're wasting everyone's time. You can answer all of the things I've asked you before I continue splitting hairs on non-issues. Especially if you plan on using a player title as an argument.

Postie is just trying to sort me, which is fine. I'd rather her realize I'm town at this point so that we could work together, but not much is gonna get done at this rate

Shannon's 105 did very little to generate discussion, as evidenced by the fact that

literally no one discussed

it until Aeronaut brought it up now.

And here you are, now following what Postie is doing just like you were following my read of algebra.

Compare that to my push on shannon, which actually generated discussion.

... no it didn't. You're "push" on shannon to which you later admitted was just because you didn't feel good about one single post and had no real reasoning as to why; please point out any place where that generated any sort of discussion, because the only discussion I see that it created was me realizing you're likely scum this game.

Plus complaining about activity in the thread but not doing anything else does nothing to encourage activity. I honestly have no idea how you think that shannon has contributed the most to this game

Please lay out a case for why she is scum. Also, can you tell me why you decided Algebra was more deserving of your vote than her when you switched? Thanks.

Specifically I'd say 45, 60, 77, 113

This still has nothing to do with 105.

...I know. I never said it did? These are posts that are about her activity, not 105. What are you talking about?

(And in all of those posts except the last one she doesn't engage with any player, instead complaining about the lack of content while not producing any useful content herself. Jfc.)

Ok, but in most of her posting, she seems to be very genuine to me, just as you somehow think that the handful of shitposts that Algebra calls an ISO is somehow genuine. AGAIN, she could have very easily been much less active and allowing the game the die instead of continually posting.

That's your opinion, Postie. Join dates mean a lot to most of us on-site. New players follow the same patterns almost every time. You don't have to believe me, but we're not lynching Shannon today. Or TB for that matter.

You don't magically get better if you sign-up and don't play any games, just because a certain amount of time has elapsed. Join dates would only mean something if they indicated how much experience someone has, which they don't; that's what their player title does, since it's a reflection of how many posts they've made in games.

Ok, I actually did not know that our player titles changed without the use of the title fairy. As far as I'm concerned, they're both new. Your argument on Dark Horse still doesn't make any sense regardless.

His tunneling on shannon to look busy, and the reasoning was so paper thin there anyway. He refused to give any sort of reads and just knee jerk attacked me when I gave a lick of pressure. I'm sorry, but he's screaming scum to me. Saying "Oh he's bold and brazen and scum don't do that" is just factually untrue.

I don't care how shaky his reads or reasoning were, the point is that he was committed to them and willing to charge headfirst into attacking shit and make himself the center of attention (didn't you townread shannon for that?), despite the heat he got for it. I'd expect scum!DH to be far more cautious, especially considering he doesn't have a huge amount of experience on the site yet (and no, that's not me making an argument based off his player title; it simply strengthens my point).

What? So shaky reads don't matter...? ok, well can you show me where at all he "committed" to them? The point i'm trying to get across to you is that he

didn't

commit to them. He had exactly one read he was pushing very hard, which was Shannon. He went with the "X is scum, vote them please" without reasoning early game schtick that almost always comes from scum. He seemed very sure of this read but then cited like ONE LINE OF ONE POST and said "oh this sounded too cautious" which is absolute bullshit.

The point is, though, that he IMMEDIATELY backtracked. As soon as the shannon wagon goes nowhere, he immediately backtracked and was like yeah I can get behind Algebra and just jumped on there. He hasn't really pushed her much after that. Not to mention, when you showed up Postie and voted ThinkBig, he immediately 180'd his townread on him and immediately started showing shade on him and calling him scum. If anything, Dark Horse is going with the flow as much as possible.

@Postie are you scum reading Aeronaut?

What on Earth were the past few pages about then? The only thing I can come up with is that you are scum reading Aero and think that his read on me is fake. Is that what's going on?

Bingo.

Oh wow who could have guessed

And I'm not getting any sort of brazen or ballsy from his posts. What he's done today is tunnel Shannon for what seemed like little to no reason, and then gave us one of the thinnest lines of reasonings possible (see 89). And then he backpedalled and basically jumped on the next viable wagon which was algebra

To address your "I don't see how he's being ballsy":
1) Putting someone to L-1 early and without warning is ballsy for newbscum

Oh, jeeze, no it's not. 9/10 times, scum, especially new scum will put a player at L-1 because again, all they really know is that they need to end the day sooner rather than later. It's ballsy for newtown, because new town are almost always concerned with getting as much conversation as possible. New players don't usually have the capacity to fake that, so they instead vie for raising the lynch ASAP.

2) His tone in general is consistently aggressive - see posts like 44, 53, 84, 87, etc.

Ok, here's my problem with it though; save 44, all of those "aggressive tones" are being used only when he has to defend himself from me or someone else. Hardly ever is he being aggressive to push a player in those posts, it's just that he gets flustered and very angry when you start accusing him of things, which too reads as awfully scummy to me.

He has shown no aggression in trying to push other people, and still just jumps on whoever the bigger players (e.g. you and I) are voting. See his vote on Algebra, see his shade on Thinkbig, directly after each of us started moving that way. There's no actual original reads that he has besides those two town reads that he's since 180'd on anyway, and shannon who he's not pushing.

Oh yeah and I spotted this on my first readthrough but forgot about it:

There you go, I was wondering how long it was going to take for you to come out and actually say that I'm scum.

I don't have the words to explain it right now but this statement screams town to me.

.... I mean you took about 15 posts of throwing shade at me to admit that you find me scummy, so this is kind of a double standard.

I would like to hear more from creature's slot before the day is through.

...I know. I never said it did? These are posts that are about her activity, not 105. What are you talking about?

When I asked where she was encouraging discussion, I meant in post 105, because you said you liked it for encouraging discussion.

I think I said I liked shannon for encouraging discussion, and 105 just because she was giving stances when she didn't have to.

Ok, but in most of her posting, she seems to be very genuine to me, just as you somehow think that the handful of shitposts that Algebra calls an ISO is somehow genuine.

That doesn't mean much to me unless you explain

why

she sounds genuine. I can explain why algebra sounds genuine, but I want to focus on sorting you and getting your DH read straightened out.

I'll try to articulate why it sounds genuine if you do that for me with Algebra.

And if by "straightening out" my DH read you mean getting me to change my vote, then you're not going to accomplish that today. You've provided us with no other case on anybody else except for ThinkBig, which is minimal at best. You've also given me no points on why my reasoning on DH is wrong. I have a very solid case here and it's time that you join me on this wagon.

Feel free to tell me why I should vote otherwise, because you also haven't really bothered to do that.

AGAIN, she could have very easily been much less active and allowing the game the die instead of continually posting.

Sure, but posting nothing of significant value isn't really much better and could easily be scum busywork.

Ok, please and thank you tell me all the places in which Algebra's posts have any significant value. And it doesn't read as busywork to me, it reads like she has a pretty logical progression, where as someone like DH or Algebra is just throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks.

As far as I'm concerned, they're both new.

Someone with 1000+ posts and 7 completed games is not a newbie!

I mean maybe not by your standards, but by mine they are. Looking back at my seventh game, I was scum and had zero idea what to do.

What? So shaky reads don't matter...? ok, well can you show me where at all he "committed" to them? The point i'm trying to get across to you is that he

didn't

commit to them. He had exactly one read he was pushing very hard, which was Shannon. He went with the "X is scum, vote them please" without reasoning early game schtick that almost always comes from scum. He seemed very sure of this read but then cited like ONE LINE OF ONE POST and said "oh this sounded too cautious" which is absolute bullshit.

The point is, though, that he IMMEDIATELY backtracked. As soon as the shannon wagon goes nowhere, he immediately backtracked and was like yeah I can get behind Algebra and just jumped on there. He hasn't really pushed her much after that. Not to mention, when you showed up Postie and voted ThinkBig, he immediately 180'd his townread on him and immediately started showing shade on him and calling him scum. If anything, Dark Horse is going with the flow as much as possible.

He committed to to his stances in the moment, even if he didn't do so in the long term. I'll look into how his reads evolved a bit more though. Meanwhile, I'd like your thoughts on 198.

You didn't answer most of my points here. On reads, are you saying that you really think it's townie to abandon reads on a whim just because a wagon is forming?

And if by "straightening out" my DH read you mean getting me to change my vote, then you're not going to accomplish that today. You've provided us with no other case on anybody else except for ThinkBig, which is minimal at best. You've also given me no points on why my reasoning on DH is wrong. I have a very solid case here and it's time that you join me on this wagon.

For supposedly not being a newbie you are dense as fuck

Look! He's Balsy and aggressive! He must be town postie.

I still also don't get why you think that that's at all AI.

I thought I had replied to this before, guess not

I also like the way DH approaches Aero:

lol @ Aeronaut thinking I'm tunneling just because I'm actually trying to put some effort wrt a scum read

Aeronaut what are your reads

And if you answer "nothing solid" then you have no right to say that i'm tunneling

There you go, I was wondering how long it was going to take for you to come out and actually say that I'm scum. Trying to discredit me only to vote algebra was a bad move

Creature's town, thinkbig's slightly town

So I asked you this before, why is shannon town? It's annoying that instead of answering this you've tried to discredit my push instead. The fact that you asked me to clarify the hammering stuff, and then then tried attacking me for clarifying hammering stuff was terrible.

You can see his line of thought go
acknowledge Aero's criticism while thinking it's dumb -> become suspicious of Aero's motives and start questioning him -> openly and aggressively criticise Aero -> start to openly call into question Aero's motives

What I see in these posts is that I question Dark Horse for trying to look busy without providing anything new, and he gets immediately defensive and attacks ad hominem. Instead of giving reads or any source of reasoning, he says "WELL WHAT ARE YOUR READS!", and even implies that I don't have any which just isn't true as is evident by my posting immediately after.

The point of my posting was that Dark Horse called Shannon scum, saying everyone needs to pile on shannon, etc. Then, he makes a post later in the wagon saying he's not 100% sure and that she could be town? And then abandoned that read all together. So that's why I criticized that response.

It's three dimensional without being showy.

Please explain to me what you mean by this.

Again postie, I don't see how you don't look at those four posts and see someone who trying to discredit me for pushing him, instead of actually responding to any of things I was asking.

And here you are, now following what Postie is doing just like you were following my read of algebra.

Don't try to take any credit for that. algebra's posts since 99 are the scummiest content in this entire game. Anyone who didn't at least consider algebra scum was doing a poor job scumhunting. Notice how outside of creature's very early vote, no one aside from you was voting algebra before that. People who started suspecting algebra (such as me and shannon) did so primarily on the basis of algebra's wagon hopping and further interactions, which is very different than if we were trying to sheep you.

here you go

i really would like to lynch algebra tbh

i really would like to lynch algebra tbh

I can get behind this. 99 is janky as hell, plus the general lack of contribution

I would vote Algebra but I don't want anyone at L-1 yet. So onward up the list I go.

VOTE: Flames

@mod can we get a replacement for flames, he clearly doesn't give a shit about this game

VOTE: Algebra

This page of posts also underlines another reason why shannon looks town and you don't; you jump right onto algebra after I said I may want to lynch him. Shannon has the opportunity to and doesn't because there was still a slot who hadn't spoken. You're just sitting around waiting for something to jump on.

... no it didn't. You're "push" on shannon to which you later admitted was just because you didn't feel good about one single post and had no real reasoning as to why; please point out any place where that generated any sort of discussion, because the only discussion I see that it created was me realizing you're likely scum this game

Are you fucking kidding me? My push on shannon was what started legitimate discussion in this thread. Me vs shannon and me vs you were the first legitimate debates in this thread. Before it was rvs and people saying "oh lets vote an inactive to pressure" and then preceding to do absolutely jack shit. Literally this entire postie-me-you discussion comes from what I've said. Compre that to shannon's read list.

give me posts that you define as discussion that you created by voting Shannon without stating your reasoning.

The Postie discussion is coming from Postie, not you. We're just deciding whether to lynch you or not, and that's your main contribution to this conversation. I'm glad you've started to join and ask me things too instead of letting postie do all the work.

Please lay out a case for why she is scum. Also, can you tell me why you decided Algebra was more deserving of your vote than her when you switched? Thanks.

Why on earth would I lay out a case for you, considering the leaps and bounds of logic you're willing to take to say that she's town[/quote]
So you do not have a case. You understand that you're not helping anybody to understand why we should vote with you if you're not going to provide reasoning, right?

I already answered your second question multiple times including posts 121

Ok, you did. Would you say algebra is still the scummiest?

Ok, but in most of her posting, she seems to be very genuine to me, just as you somehow think that the handful of shitposts that Algebra calls an ISO is somehow genuine. AGAIN, she could have very easily been much less active and allowing the game the die instead of continually posting.

Her activity posts are among some of the laziest content you can attempt to provide in order to "look busy." They're more scummy than town, as it makes a person look like they're participating without actually having to produce any content.

Please show me some posts by Flames, Thinkbig, Algebra, you, or myself that are less lazy/genuine, because I don't see any.

What? So shaky reads don't matter...? ok, well can you show me where at all he "committed" to them? The point i'm trying to get across to you is that he didn't commit to them. He had exactly one read he was pushing very hard, which was Shannon. He went with the "X is scum, vote them please" without reasoning early game schtick that almost always comes from scum. He seemed very sure of this read but then cited like ONE LINE OF ONE POST and said "oh this sounded too cautious" which is absolute bullshit.

Do you not understand what pressure is? Day starts, I see shannon doing something somewhat scummy. Instead of being comtent with rvs voting or voting an inactive, I decide to try and get some pressure going, in order to get a better sense of whether shannon is town or scum.

Yeah, and that's fine, but my issue is that you refused to give me your thoughts on any other player, or to use anything of the reactions you got from pushing her. You push people and pressure them for reactions, but all you were doing was saying "Shannon is scum. Everyone should vote Shannon" which is helping nothing and nobody.

You're also claiming that I gave no reasons for inisitally voting, which is completely wrong.

VOTE: shannon

Found scum boys let's this game moving

VOTE: shannon

Found scum boys let's this game moving

What made you think Shannon is scum?

34 and 35 both sound way too cautious. That second line in 35 feels really forced

I gave reasons immediately after I voted. The only way you could have missed it is if you were trying to be reachy as fuck

That's a shady as fuck reason for how sure you were trying to make it seem. Either way, I'm more focused on the fact that you were trying to look busy and eventually backtracked anyway.

What would you say Shannon's alignment is now?

Not to mention, when you showed up Postie and voted ThinkBig, he immediately 180'd his townread on him and immediately started showing shade on him and calling him scum. If anything, Dark Horse is going with the flow as much as possible.

I said I'm not sure whether thinkbig's post is indicative dumbtown or dumb scum. There's a reason why I'm not voting him, and that's because I'm leaning towards dumb town more than dumb scum.

After looking back, you're right, you didn't explicitly call him scum, and that's my bad. You did tell me though that you had had a townread on him, and now you've sort of redacted that? What's your current read on him?

He has shown no aggression in trying to push other people, and still just jumps on whoever the bigger players (e.g. you and I) are voting. See his vote on Algebra, see his shade on Thinkbig, directly after each of us started moving that way. There's no actual original reads that he has besides those two town reads that he's since 180'd on anyway, and shannon who he's not pushing.

It's funny how when I was first pushing shannnon you were passive aggresively complaining about how I was tunneling her asking me stuff like "are you really going to tunnel for all of D1?" when it was lke the 2 or 3rd irl day and now suddenly I'm the one who's being too passive

Good thing you redacted the first part of this post where I say that 44 is an exception to that. As I've said, in what Postie cited as you being "aggressive", 3/4 of those posts were just you yelling and complaining because I was pushing you in the slightest way. Thats not aggression, it's flailing.

And I haven't been pushing shannon because I've been dealing with oushing algebra and now I have to deal with you

Again, you're the one that's commenting on the conversation I'm having with Postie. Feel free to go do whatever you want with Algebra. I still feel like he could be scum; if you want to present a case to me as to why he's worse the you, go ahead.[/quote]

Why am I always scumread gosh darn it going from a player that I pushed for being inactive to someone that I think is scum isn't even wagonhopping

Why did you only jump on thinkbig after creature suggested thinkbig scum first

@mod can we get a replacement for flames, he clearly doesn't give a shit about this game

VOTE: Algebra

Why did you only jump on thinkbig after creature suggested thinkbig scum first

I would've voted thinkbig regardless if creature did or not

Then why didn't you do it earlier

The primary purpose of these interactions was to determinne if algebra was noobtown or noobscum. I said that I'd be willing to lymch because nothing gets noobscum more nervous than more people being willing to lynch them. I found that algebra was unable to answer several questions that a noobtown would have probably been able to answer. What did you do again? Vote an inactive, and then say you'd love to lynch him with no reason give?

Yeah, but to me it feels like you didn't say anything about it until I was on board. As you can see from the shitstorm of quote-walls in this game, trying to get a lynch through that I don't agree with is going to be difficult, especially since we've got 7 people which is way too small to making dumb lynches. Granted, It's not like it was that long in between the time where Algebra puked all over the game and the time when I said he'd probably be a good lynch, so maybe I should give you a pass there.

What do you make of Postie's opposition to an Algebra lynch?

Again postie, I don't see how you don't look at those four posts and see someone who trying to discredit me for pushing him, instead of actually responding to any of things I was asking.

You're questions were a thinly veiled attempt at discrediting my post without having to call me scum. Especially considering some if your questions (Asking me if I'm going to tunnel a read right after I decide to pursue it?), I was incredibly skeptical of your intentions

Postie just did a similar thing for about two pages on me, but I don't see you calling her out for it?

It's four in the morning and I need to act in two shows tomorrow so I need to pick this up in the morning; Postie, the reason I'm asking you about your algebra reads in certain places is because I'm trying to show you that you're applying a double standard. You can't be asking me about every single thing I've said about Shannon and Dark Horse when you've got so much unexplained stuff on your own. I want to know why you think algebra is town, really. You had said before I think that Algebra reads to you as genuine. I feel like if you're going to ask me how I think Shannon feels genuine, you should have to answer that same thing about your read, especially since I'm scum reading that player and would like to hear why exactly you oppose that lynch

It's three dimensional without being showy.

Please explain to me what you mean by this.

I'd expect newbscum, or anyone with DH's jumpy/aggressive character, to fake a push like this in a much more two-dimensional way by quickly/immediately blowing up at you and calling you scum. Instead, DH displays more of a gradient of suspicion, and does so in quite a subtle way rather than one which makes a show of his thought process.

What? In the span of four posts he discredits me, calls me scum, and basically says I'm shit player. You just described to me exactly my own reasoning for why he's scum. It's not a "gradient" if it's in the span of like 20 minutes

I think a big reason we have such opposite reads is because I guess we see things as differently indicative. I don't remember if you're originally from offsite or maybe just have different experiences and play differently, but usually abandoning reads to jump onto a popular wagon is seen as scummy almost all of the time. "logical progression" or a clear thought process and actions is something that's almost always seen as very town-oriented; scum have a lot harder time explaining their reasoning for doing things or sometimes there's not a clear motivation or thought process involved because they're making up justifications as they go along.

And that's theory you'all find anywhere

back. reading the page I missed

Sorry about this wall; it's a catchup one though.

Aero, it's completely natural for a towny to be suspicious of someone's motives for making a push on them. You know you're town, and especially when you're new you tend to be arrogant and assume everyone else should know it too, so you end up being intensely suspicious of anyone who questions that fact because

why are they trying to lynch a towny dammit

. This is what I'm seeing with DH, and the way he's going about it feels incredibly genuine because of the fact I can see several layers of thought and paranoia; I don't see why it matters if that's within a short span of time or not. I don't see him being able to fake this whole thing as scum.

I'll respond to the rest of this stuff in the morning.

So I read this and this is the first time you've made much sense to me this game, Postie.

I think my issue this game is that I've continued focusing on the few things that Dark Horse did in the first few pages, which I will stand by as looking really awful to me. From my perspective, its him pushing a new player to look busy, and overreacting to my critique of that. In addition, Shannon looked town to me right off the bat, and someone pushing her in that way made me assume he'd be scum.

What I've failed to do though is to analyze anything that came after, e.g. his defense of himself and his attack on me. I think some of his more recent posting is a lot better the more I look at it, in that the play style is changed from trying to look aggressive, more to actually looking at details / pushing with some sort of substance, e.g. actually trying to figure me out. I think I probably need to table my read on him now, because I'm still unsure. It also would be easier with more flip info, so tabled for now.

okay so wow reading all of this is painful, everything is just one or two lines. I really don't like that 90% of dissucssion between pages 6-9 are just postie/aero talking back and forth. I'm not entirely sure what to think about this interaction though. There's been quite a dominant force of aero/postie deciding where the game goes and I don't really like that at all. I haven't really seen any posts silencing anyone though, so I guess that's more on everyone else not posting.

I would like to hear more from algebra, as I feel his alignment will come rather naturally to everyone if he just posts more content. I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is. I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE, no one is really explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like. Or really sharing hard reads at all. I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

@postie With all the attention you've been giving to aero, do you still find TB to be your topscum?
@TB and algebra I'd really like to see both of your top town/scum reads in the game currently.

Besides the questions at the bottom, this opening post is a whole lot of nothing.

Aero, it's completely natural for a towny to be suspicious of someone's motives for making a push on them. You know you're town, and especially when you're new you tend to be arrogant and assume everyone else should know it too, so you end up being intensely suspicious of anyone who questions that fact because

why are they trying to lynch a towny dammit

. This is what I'm seeing with DH, and the way he's going about it feels incredibly genuine because of the fact I can see several layers of thought and paranoia; I don't see why it matters if that's within a short span of time or not. I don't see him being able to fake this whole thing as scum.

I'll respond to the rest of this stuff in the morning.

I will go further and say that not only does it seem genuine on DH's part, it'd be bad strategy if he's scum.

A cursory glance of my first five or ten posts in any game will show exactly the same behaviour he thinks he picked up here, i.e. I'm a bit weird and I don't know how to person in mafia yet. (Probably posts like this are not personing but let's just go with it). Not to mention, a quick look at my wiki would show that I've never been lynched. Unless the scum team are silly, or not doing any research, they'd have to know that I'm not a good target for a D1 quick wagon.

So - I think DH is town, and he is/was genuine in his assessment of me. The worrying thing to me was always that he is appearing to line up lynches based on my flip, and I'm a tad worried that he seems to be following the wagons. But! And this is the thing for me, if he is super new then he might not know that's a bad thing to do. I have certainly played town games where I have tried to look townier by following the leader, only to be scum read for perceived lack of reasoning behind my moves.

I'm pretty happy at this point with town reads on DH, Postie, and Aero, who I think is genuine in his town read on me. There'd be nothing to stop him backing off or just 'null' reading me, so the fact that he's even bothered to argue for me says 'town' at this point.

So, you have many town reads. Do you think anyone is scum?

Curious about your feelings on Wyv's opening, also.

So you do not have a case. You understand that you're not helping anybody to understand why we should vote with you if you're not going to provide reasoning, right?

Right now trying to convince people that shannon's scum is not a priority for me

That's fair.

Please show me some posts by Flames, Thinkbig, Algebra, you, or myself that are less lazy/genuine, because I don't see any.

Thinkbig's questions, Algebra's reads, this whole argument we're having. All of these do significantly more to progress the day than just complaining about inactivity.

I meant beforehand. Like when Shannon was making her posts, do you see anything that was any better?

Basically what I'm saying is that we were all being shitty and inactive at the beginning of the game and scum shannon could have just rode that.

What would you say Shannon's alignment is now?

She's been less scummy. I feel like a noobscum could have easily followed you in accusing me. The fact that she's willing to look at it from her own angle is very town.

Yeah. That's how I felt about it, too.

Postie just did a similar thing for about two pages on me, but I don't see you calling her out for it?

Postie has made much more of an effort to get her hands dirty than you had. She has also explained why she thinks I'm town, which is something you hadn't done. Do know how wack it is to see someone try to discredit approach without giving any in depth reasons for why he thinks my scumread's town?

Ok, now imagine the way you feel about me allegedly discrediting you, and reverse the situation. That's how I feel about that early posting.

What? In the span of four posts he discredits me, calls me scum, and basically says I'm shit player. You just described to me exactly my own reasoning for why he's scum. It's not a "gradient" if it's in the span of like 20 minutes

You're acting like I made those four posts in a row. They were all based on different lackluster responses that you had made over time. The 20 minutes remark is completely false. Anyone who has looked at that part of the thread knows this. Why are you making stuff up?

I don't recall saying them in a row. You just got angry when I pushed you, which generally is a scum tell so early on.

V/LA UNTIL MONDAY AROUND 3:30 PM EST

I will still be reading and will try to post during this time, but I will have limited access until then.

Wow gr8

For the record, I think Wyvernite's entrance sounded forced as hell too, but I find that a lot of newbies have a tendency to sound a bit forced so I'm hesitant to call him scum for it. I'm scumreading the slot by PoE though.

@shannon

- Why are you townreading Aero?

Idk. My gut says Aero's town but the last time I gut townread Aero he was scum so... someone help.

What game are you referring to?

Wyr's post to me reads as adding a bunch of non-AI stuff into a catchup (such as "silencing") to try to look like he's analyzing more than he is. I haven't read the rest of his posts yet, though

I'll get round to doing a case for town!algebra and responding to other stuff once my headache has died down a bit.

I would love to see this.

Aeronaut what ever happened to your algebra push?

Postie seems very sure that Algebra is town and I want to hear that reasoning first.

more coming, taking out laundry

allright so I had to stay late at work so I apologize for not getting to analyze as much of the thread today as I wanted to, but I'll throw in a really quick and dirty rundown of reads thus far

I'll start with my town of
AERO - The amount of detail that he's gone into all of his posts seems very indicative of town, and I don't see him being mafia at all, especially with the posts he constantly references to support his reads/questions

So... I'm town because I go into detail? I didn't realize all scum had a post restriction in which they had to be as vague as possible.

And Postie has been here going into what I can only describe as an absurd amount of detail. Why are you town reading me for that but scum reading her for it? I mean, you're town reading me for the wrong reasons here, and it's gross.

You haven't called me out at all, you've asked questions, there's a very large difference between the two, same goes for postie, I see scum I call them as such, there's no OMGUS here. I said that I found it easy to step into her shoes, not that I agreed with her reads. I see how she came to them though; don't go putting words in my mouth tyvm. Postie's defense on you boils down to "it feels town" or "it was ballsy, brazen, and aggressive" because that's the only way she can explain how you've been playing this game, and it shows. I'll provide my own reasons why you're a scummy scum scum in my next few posts, but again as I said I didn't have time to do full reads on everyone, I'm going to showcase aero's accusations which I believe to be a solid basis on why you're scum. so take your bs 0/2 post crap out of here.

I feel like you're literally taking the bare minimum of my original points to Postie and repeating them + focusing on Postie/Me/DH when none of those are really viable lynches right now.

Also the fact that Wyv is literally giving an opinion on every other player that's not the two viable lynches

This is good

VOTE: Wyvernite

What's the TB case?

Also the fact that Wyv is literally giving an opinion on every other player that's not the two viable lynches

This is good

VOTE: Wyvernite

Yeah i'm sorry that this group has decided to put the 3 people with the least amount of posts on full fuckin blast. I have no reads on TB/Algebra, there's nothing there, not that I can read atleast. I see that you guys are putting up all sorts of reasons why one is town/mafia, I simply have yet to see enough amount of info from either to have reads that mean anything, I can arbitrarily throw scum/town around like everyone else here seems to be doing, but you won't catch me doing it.

ThingBig and Algebra both have 19 posts. You're really telling me there's nothing you can get out of either of them? The reason it's scummy is that you're avoiding our main two topics of conversation right now which generally is indicative of scum trying not to take responsibility, especially when we're 2 days out from DL. I've got news for you; you're not going to get a lynch on DH or Postie today.

If they had posted as much as Flames did, then I'd agree with you, but the fact that theres enough content there that the rest of the game feels comfortable doing paragraphs of analysis of and you are still acting like they're non-slots is awful.

I didn't know that people had to be lynch targets for me to ask questions and be inquisitive about it? When I was talking about people "silencing" this is exactly what I was talking about, and it coming from one of my top towns is very unsettling to say the least.

Nobody is silencing you.

In regards to taking the bare minimum and focusing on YOU/DH/postie. I'm definitely not focusing on you here at all, atleast in a scum sense I feel like that's what you're trying to insinuate here. Again, to use your argument, I didn't know there was a read restriction, where I can only focus on the people that are currently being wagoned? That seems scummy as all hell, my read on you is quickly flipping.

So I'm scum now?

Did you expect just because you were town reading me that I'd just agree with everything you said? That's a silly thought, even if you're scum.

and I don't like the fact that he basically admitted to sheeping shannon's reads.

If you're talking about 260, I believe he was saying he townread shannon for having similar reads to him (which, btw, is a terrible reason to townread someone), not that he was sheeping her. I don't see why sheeping someone would be scummy anyway though.

It feels like he's trying to piggyback off of a townie's reads, especially considering how little reads he's given publicly

@DH - I find it interesting that you're now referring to me as 'a townie'. It doesn't feel genuine.

To recap:

You super scum read me from the start of the game.

Someone calls you out and asks you to provide a case, so that you can convince them that I'm scum too. In 229 you respond by saying "Right now trying to convince people that shannon's scum is not a priority for me"

In the same post, you say I'm less scummy.

And now, in 278 with no further analysis, you refer to me as a 'townie'.

Can you please explain the thought process behind this change of read? Because it's looking pretty convenient to me.

I thought you read DH as town?

Postie what is good about 285

Eh. I don't know.

I still don't have much from you why we should be voting TB? Besides "he is lurking" I feel. I'm going to need more than that.

I guess I do sort of get the viewpoint that between TB and Wyv, it will be at least easier to interact with Wyv tomorrow than TB who right now is a whole lot of nothing

But besides that, not much

Right but just because you're townreading everyone doesn't mean we all are

Yeah.

UNVOTE:

Not only is wyv signifigantly scummier

I'm going to have to strongly disagree here.

but a TB lynch gives us next to nothing.

If we lynch him today and he flips scum:

• algebra is cleared
  
• we're left with a pool of 4 people to choose between to lynch, all of which are actively posting

If we lynch him today and he flips town:

• we eliminate an unknown who was going to be lynched eventually anyway
  
• we don't have to keep get frustrated over the fact that he's not doing anything

If we don't lynch him today:

• we'll likely have to decide whether to lynch between him or algebra tomorrow, and if we choose wrong we lose
  
  
• that's not a choice I trust town with please let's not go there guys

The bolded makes a lot of sense to me.

But Postie, do you have any other scum reads besides DH?

back, reading up

Excellent. Feeling better about townreading you.

Ok, first off, why does me agreeing with your point make me suddenly seem town to you?

1st Tier Lynchpool:

ThinkBig

⁴ /

shannon

⁴
2nd Tier Lynchpool:

Aeronaut

³
Townpool:

Dark Horse

¹ /

algebra

² /

Wyvernite

²

And you're saying I'm town, but I'm in your lynchpool.

What even are your points on shannon? I don't even remember you saying she's scum.

If wyv flips scum (which is what I'd suspect), then we'd have an extra mislynch. That scenario would also allow us to look at the possibility of algebra scum before a three man lylo, which sounds terrible

This is also a very, very good point.

If Wyvern is scum here he has zero understanding of basic scumplay and absolutely no common sense. Why isn't he trying to push through a lynch that isn't him? Why is he attacking some of the only people who stand any chance of being convinced to not lynch him?

That's indicative as scum, though, isn't it? Someone having nothing to base their arguments on so they just resort to defending themselves and not giving any real anything. At the very least, it's not town in any way.

He hasn't been pushing ThinkBig though. All he's done is expressed minor suspicion of him, and the same with algebra.

He has done absolutely nothing to try and make a lynch happen on either of them.

You understand that you're laying out a scum case, right? It's the

very fact

that he's talking and talking but saying a whole lot of nothing that should be raising red flags for you, but it isn't for some reason. I really don't understand.

Like, a townie is pushing for reads and trying to get somewhere, and you're literally admitting that Wyvern is doing the opposite of that. Why would you not be voting for him after recognizing this?

In addition to everything that put him in the spotlight, he's gone back to lurking while occasionally making a comment that he has no intention of following up. That's scummy as hell.

Yeah, honestly this.

Because he doesn't have to. Both of the lynches of substance behind them. Especially in the case of thinkbig's lynch, there's nothing he needs to do because of how hard you're gunning for it.

That's not how things were for the vast majority of the time he was sitting on his hands and letting things happen.

Again... sitting around and letting everyone else fight is exactly what scum does.

Yeah.

Intent to hammer

Honestly Postie, besides the argument that it's going to be hard to deal with TB and Algebra tomorrow, I really don't agree with most of your defense of Wyrv right now. And that argument doesn't even really hold up anymore, because TB is back here posting right now. W flip gives us far, far more information than a TB one does right now, especially if he's scum which I'm honestly becoming more and more sure he probably is.

In addition to that, how does sitting around and doing nothing = auto-town? It doesn't, that's how. And if it did, you could apply that same argument to ThinkBig, who also has sat around for the majority of the game and done nothing.

Excellent. Feeling better about townreading you.

Also thinking about that scenario more closely - town has to choose between two lurkers. Even with a TB townflip, we'd at least be choosing between a lurker and someone giving us content to read them off.

Postie why is me disagreeing with you make me scum? Stop arguing ad hominem. I'm trying to understand you but that reasoning is NAI at best

VC 1.7

D1 will end

Nov 17/16

or in

(expired on 2016-11-17 07:30:00)

No premature hammers please. I want the chance to finalise my thoughts after how messy everything's gotten.
Also TB promised a catch-up, and I want to read it.

I'll honor this though; I'll either hammer after A)TB finishes a catchup and B) Wyvern comes back to defend himself.

i've got class until literally 6:30 but i'll be here after that.

ok i'm back. Reading what I missed

Why aren't we lynching thinkbig

What a waste of a player slot

Ok, honestly.

@ThinkBig.

You're going to get in here and give us a full reads list before deadline hits, or I'm going to lynch you instead. Tell me exactly who is town, who is scum, and your reasoning why. No more beating around the bush.

Aero, I need you to explain to me why TB should be kept alive today, and what that means for day 2. How, exactly, are we going to figure out whether or not TB should live or die tomorrow?

The above post is the answer to your question.

And by before deadline, I actually mean that I want it tonight before midnight, because I don't know about my availability tomorrow and I'm not risking a NL.

that's not a reads list, so doesn't meet criterion

Criteria?*

Criterion.**

Yeah, but what if it's a readslist with incredibly lazy reasoning like that?
I really don't want TB to scrape through today with something along the lines of "X is town for saying a lot of detailed things; Y is scum because they're lurking."

to be fair, Wyrv's reads list was literally that.

AERO - The amount of detail that he's gone into all of his posts seems very indicative of town, and I don't see him being mafia at all, especially with the posts he constantly references to support his reads/questions
Shannon - I currently believe that Shannon and I's thought processes are very similar, and being able to step into her shoes and see the game through her eyes makes me very happy in my read with her currently.

back on point thought, I'm pretty good at telling bullshit from actual reads. I'll be able to tell, here, too.

welcome to me

Thinkbig are you around

Should I give him more time? What do you think?

I think it's pretty likely he lurks his way through tbh

They have until I get home from work

Okay, so were there specific things people said that persuaded you to read people are certain way? If so, what were they?

How long will you be driving?

Postie, asserting that Shannon and I are scum together just because we're being townread makes negative sense

Where the fuck's algebra is what I want to know

Postie do you think Shannon and I are scum together? Please don't avoid the question.

Because while that's a pretty shifty read shift, you've been shifting your read on me just as much. Why is what you're doing any more justified?

And you also left out the part of that where you're already lining up lynches if TB flips town.

Postie do you think Shannon and I are scum together? Please don't avoid the question.

I think any combination of you/shannon/TB is possible. I see a you-shannon team as possible but unlikely.

So if TB is town, your unlikely scenario is 100% confirmed?

And you also left out the part of that where you're already lining up lynches if TB flips town.

Why's this scummy? I have a scumpool and I intend to lynch in it.

Because it sounds like you already know what alignment he is.[/quote]

Like what if he's town? Then what?

Because while that's a pretty shifty read shift, you've been shifting your read on me just as much. Why is what you're doing any more justified?

@ Postie

because I hate your motivations behind it

Idk. It's pretty clear to me that he's not going to contribute much more even when pressured. If I take you out of the equation, it does make more sense to keep Wyrn for sorting tomorrow. Otherwise we're left with Algelurk and WIFOM-big


p-edit gr8

Yeah fuck it.

VOTE: Thinkbig

If he's scum we can clear Postie and then I don't have to think about her for the rest of the game

Thank fuck.

Spoiler:

Dear Fuck,

Hello friend! It has sure been awhile, hasn't it? How have you been? The kids? How's florida treating you? I always get jealous when I think of you living in the tropics!

Anyway, I'm writing to you to thank you. Not just for all you've done for me, but for simply being you. You light up my day, fuck. You really bring out the best in me! I think that goes for all of us; all the time, I hear our friends saying, "boy do I miss fuck. He was such a cool guy."

But alas, I digress. Mostly, I wanted to just hear about you; how everything is going. Make any progress on that novel? I know things have busy with the kids starting school and everything, but in the blink of an eye, those little fucks will be grown up and off the college, and then you'll have no excuse to finish that book! I've actually got a few connections in a publishing company up here, so maybe you should stop by and come visit! You know it would mean the world to bobby, after, well, the incident. Anyway, fuck, I'd better be off; there's laundry to do and life to attend to. I hope you have a fun, safe, and happy fucking holiday. I hope to hear back from you soon, fuck!

Sincerely,

Shit

TB were you town?

well

Yeah Wyv is the play

fuck

Think big if you ever want to Hydra, I would be happy to

[there is also Hydra academy!]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=67817

Where are you walking home from

Make mafia great again, and lynch TB, and may God bless Micro 657.

I was so close to lynching Wyrv on this MAGA alone but then I was like no bad Aero don't be petty but moral of the story is always be petty

@Aristo that's so nice! that's honestly my life goal is to be good enough friends with my colleagues that we go out for drinks after

Sure! Boston is rad. There's all kinds of great food and sports teams and boat rides!

I'm in Amherst right now though for college, so I'm more in western Mass which is... quieter

Oh my friend went there. He plays Basketball for them

Cool !!

Postie, what are you reads now that TB flipped town.

Are you scum?

Wait you're saying Postie was manipulating me?

I don't get that.

I really don't know what to think of you right now. I was hard town reading before, but the more I look at you the more I don't understand your motivations for a lot of what your saying. Hard townread on Algebra and Wyrv makes zero sense from your perspective. The push on Thinkbig with minimal reasoning besides POE... etc.

I don't know. I'm really paranoid that I'm confbiasing with you and need to give you an actual look.

So you're that sure on a Postie/Wyrvern scumteam?

What about Algebra?


pedit: @Shannon

@shannon what makes Postie worse than Wyrver or Algebra or myself for you?

Hard townread on Algebra and Wyrv makes zero sense from your perspective.

Why? I covered both in detail.

But it doesn't make any sense to me. I'll go back and find things that I'm talking about, hold on

@shannon what makes Postie worse than Wyrver or Algebra or myself for you?

Never mind, you answered this.

So what I don't understand is Postie's progression on Wyrv. See below.

I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is. I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE, no one is really explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like. Or really sharing hard reads at all. I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

There's plenty to comment on so far. Do some ISOs, tell me what you think of my reasons for townreading DH, etc.

This is a null interaction, first off.

For the record, I think Wyvernite's entrance sounded forced as hell too, but I find that a lot of newbies have a tendency to sound a bit forced so I'm hesitant to call him scum for it. I'm scumreading the slot by PoE though.

Here is her soft defending him, but then calling him scum anyway? She mentions that his entrance is forced, and she'd be right. Then says it's NAI. Ok. But then she's scum reading him by POE?

If I were scum in Wyvern's position, and I had to make a list of everyone that I most and least wanted dead, that would pretty much be it.

Gj Wyv

Here Postie calls out Wyrv as scum.

I wouldn't hate a Wyv lynch, but I think my preference is still for a ThinkBig lynch right now, just because algebra has been latched onto ThinkBig all game so a scumflip there basically clears him.

Here, she's moved to "not hating" a Wyv lynch. Still pushing ThinkBig on POE, but mentioning that she still would lynch Wyrv. Granted, Postie here says that Thinkbig flipping scum would clear algebra; Ok, so since TB has flipped Town,

@Postie[/b[ what do you think of Algebra now?

As of 285 I strongly oppose a Wyvernite lynch. More to come.

Wyv, if you don't want to be today's lynch you'll vote ThinkBig.

And then right as Wyrv is gaining traffic, Postie is suddenly in strong opposition.

I don't see the utility in Wyv flipping his read on Aero. It looks very much like he doesn't care about making allies that will oppose his lynch; he's managed to make an enemy of half the town by now due to the way he's evolved his reads on people. And he hasn't been actively pursuing another wagon that's likely to go through instead of his own.

The paranoia about "silencing" pings me as

extremely

town also.

When I was talking about people "silencing" this is exactly what I was talking about, and it coming from one of my top towns is very unsettling to say the least.

You're pushing scum on me for bringing up people who aren't being focused currently. You are trying to get me to not talk about them.

This is what doesn't make sense to me now looking back; Why does Wyrvernite changing his read on me suddenly make him town? Literally what happened is that he hard townread me for no reason besides my posts being "detailed". I called him out on it, and *suddenly* he was scum reading me for disagreeing with him. Somehow, some way, that is reasoning for Postie's excuse to hard-townread him for the rest of the game.

He's now looking at algebra, the other person "up for lynch today". That looks like pursuing another wagon to me

He's not done anything to convince anyone to vote someone who isn't him. That's the bottom line.

Not doing anything to convince anyone that someone else is scum, is not Town-play, and not a real argument.

Not only is wyv signifigantly scummier

I'm going to have to strongly disagree here.

but a TB lynch gives us next to nothing.

If we lynch him today and he flips scum:

• algebra is cleared
  
• we're left with a pool of 4 people to choose between to lynch, all of which are actively posting

If we lynch him today and he flips town:

• we eliminate an unknown who was going to be lynched eventually anyway
  
• we don't have to keep get frustrated over the fact that he's not doing anything

If we don't lynch him today:

• we'll likely have to decide whether to lynch between him or algebra tomorrow, and if we choose wrong we lose
  
• that's not a choice I trust town with please let's not go there guys

Nothing on here made/makes any sense besides the content part.

Like I can already see the entire game going down the drain from here if this lynch goes through.

And now you're still hard defending him. This doesn't make sense.

I think it's a similar feeling with algebra but I have to look back again and check.

But I still don't know about Postie.

Honestly, the fact that Wyrv has been absolutely silent today, mixed with the kill makes me feel like he makes the most sense to lynch today.

We do have time.

But it's still bothersome that he's not around

I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is. I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE, no one is really explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like. Or really sharing hard reads at all. I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

There's plenty to comment on so far. Do some ISOs, tell me what you think of my reasons for townreading DH, etc.

This is a null interaction, first off.

If it's null, why mention it? Are you drawing any conclusions from this? Did someone suggest it

wasn't

a null interaction? What are you trying to say by pointing this out?

Because in a game this small, null/unimportant interactions are usually what scum are going to use to interact with their team.

For the record, I think Wyvernite's entrance sounded forced as hell too, but I find that a lot of newbies have a tendency to sound a bit forced so I'm hesitant to call him scum for it. I'm scumreading the slot by PoE though.

Here is her soft defending him, but then calling him scum anyway? She mentions that his entrance is forced, and she'd be right. Then says it's NAI. Ok. But then she's scum reading him by POE?

The question marks seem to indicate this confuses you. What about "I disagree that X is a good reason to scumread this player, but I scumread them regardless because of Y" is confusing you?

Because you're hardcore wavering on it; you're struggling to give a real stance on him.

Here, she's moved to "not hating" a Wyv lynch. Still pushing ThinkBig on POE, but mentioning that she still would lynch Wyrv. Granted, Postie here says that Thinkbig flipping scum would clear algebra; Ok, so since TB has flipped Town,

@Postie[/b[ what do you think of Algebra now?

Why would TB's townflip change my opinion of algebra? I said that I'd be able to draw conclusions from a TB scumflip, not

any

flip.

So null?

Do you have any opinion of algebra whatsoever?

The reason I asked is because, if you feel so strongly that a TB scum flip

CLEARS

Algebra, doesn't it make sense for a TB town flip to give some sort of impactful read as well?

I don't see the utility in Wyv flipping his read on Aero. It looks very much like he doesn't care about making allies that will oppose his lynch; he's managed to make an enemy of half the town by now due to the way he's evolved his reads on people. And he hasn't been actively pursuing another wagon that's likely to go through instead of his own.

The paranoia about "silencing" pings me as

extremely

town also.

When I was talking about people "silencing" this is exactly what I was talking about, and it coming from one of my top towns is very unsettling to say the least.

You're pushing scum on me for bringing up people who aren't being focused currently. You are trying to get me to not talk about them.

This is what doesn't make sense to me now looking back; Why does Wyrvernite changing his read on me suddenly make him town? Literally what happened is that he hard townread me for no reason besides my posts being "detailed". I called him out on it, and *suddenly* he was scum reading me for disagreeing with him. Somehow, some way, that is reasoning for Postie's excuse to hard-townread him for the rest of the game.

I like the part where you ignore that I gave

It looks very much like he doesn't care about making allies that will oppose his lynch; he's managed to make an enemy of half the town by now due to the way he's evolved his reads on people.

three

And he hasn't been actively pursuing another wagon that's likely to go through instead of his own.

other

The paranoia about "silencing" pings me as

extremely

town also.

reasons.

Those are reasons I refuted already, so I didn't feel like being redundant. I probably should have just kept it anyway, though.

Not doing anything to convince anyone that someone else is scum, is not Town-play, and not a real argument.

It's not pro-town, certainly, but anti-town = scummy is fallacy and you know it. The question should be whether it: a) helps or hurts his wincon as scum, and b) whether the answer to a) matches his perception of the action.

When you're scum, not pushing for someone else to be lynched while you are being lynched is blatantly detrimental to your wincon

, and therefore more likely to come from a town mindset because it's unlikely that someone would knowingly play against their win condition.

First off; I'm not saying it's just anti-town. It's scum-indicative, and you know that, Postie. Sitting around, providing no new reads or intel on anything is so very scum-motivated; it allows the player to look busy and townie without having to provide any real reads or stances, because in a game this small most of those stances would be bullshit anyway.

Nothing on here made/makes any sense besides the content part.

Why?

Again... I've stated why above like four times at this point. Please read the above.

And now you're still hard defending him. This doesn't make sense.

Why?

Because.... how could you hard-defend anyone at this point? Aren't you paranoid of anyone?

Like I can say that I'm

pretty

sure that Shannon is town, but I still don't fucking know for sure. You're here acting like you've got it solved

why won't you give me a read on algebra

math is not a read.

Your argument isn't that he had stances though, it's just that he didn't want to vote and somehow that makes him town

Stances aren't stances if there's nothing to back them up; also, he provided no stances on the two people who were the leading wagons, TB and algebra.

So no, it really doesn't.

Honestly fuck this

VOTE: Wyrv

He's definitely scum. When he flips scum, please lynch Postie tomorrow.

Or you just killed him ready to make that argument?

Or maybe he didn't agree with your shitty Aero-is-scum-with-shannon narrative so your option was to kill him

Either way, you're scum, Wyrv is scum.

[Aeronaut]

You think a scumteam of me/Wyv would make a kill that incriminated both of us on the off chance that a townie would construct their entire argument for today around it in a scummy fashion

and

I'd be believed after the inevitable cries of WIFOM?

Please.

And yeah. The fact that you're stating that you wouldn't now means that you would, and probably did.

[Aeronaut]

Please tell me anywhere today where I called you town. Otherwise, stop making shit up and hoping it sticks

[Aeronaut]

I really don't know what to think of you right now.

I was hard town reading before, but the more I look at you the more I don't understand your motivations for a lot of what your saying. Hard townread on Algebra and Wyrv makes zero sense from your perspective. The push on Thinkbig with minimal reasoning besides POE... etc.

I don't know. I'm really paranoid that I'm confbiasing with you and need to give you an actual look.

[Aeronaut]

I do think that Wyrv is due for a prod.

[Aeronaut]

Because if I'm wrong, I don't want it to be that easy for scum to come in and quick hammer for the win.

I also want to hear from the replacement.

[Aeronaut]

what? postie an I are a scumteam?

[Aeronaut]

Shannon literally read any part of the game and that should convince you that that's not the case

[Aeronaut]

How is you saying you won't vote me because you want to hear from the replacement any different from me saying I won't vote Postie because I want to hear from the replacement?

[Aeronaut]

UNVOTE:

[Aeronaut]

You have the chance to speak ved.

Just so everyone knows, I'm going to be phoneposting until Friday at the earliest because my computer screen is getting fixed.

[Aeronaut]

Wait what?

How are me and Shannon scum, but in your next post, postie is confscum?

[Aeronaut]

What? That makes zero sense

I'm phone posting right now though, because the computer is broken. I'll be able to take a look harder in a little bit but I don't understand that last psor

[Aeronaut]

How is postie proven town

[Aeronaut]

That only makes sense when you two aren't buddies

And you're buddies, like I said 100 times

[Aeronaut]

VOTE: Vedith

This is a sure thing to me.

[Aeronaut]

Yeah that's a really funny switch you just had Shannon.

[Aeronaut]

So I don't have a computer until Saturday, so

im gonna be V/LA

until then. I doubt you're gonna give me that time, but vedith and postie are probs a team together

[Aeronaut]

I was town, congrats.

Postie & Vedith 2016!

[Aeronaut]

yay

[Aeronaut]

Postie idk if you read the Deadthred but you showing up made me have to like stop being so shit and put effort into the things i was doing