Micro 839: Two-in-One (its over)

[Elsa Jay]

Because you’re scummy bro. Asking what you’re doing wrong is another example of it - scum is self-concerned and anxious. Town just IS.

I'm asking so you'd give an actual reason why I'm scummy. You just replied "you just are bro.". That doesnt help me. Doesn't help thr game either.

[Pine]

Actually, if you carefully read my response, you’ll find it contains a real reason.

Given that you’ll miss it again, I’ll spell it out: your self-concern and anxiety come off as scummy, particularly when coupled with your apparently agenda-based posting.

[Elsa Jay]

My agenda this game is to make sure I win both games for town. If I must focus on Bird, my goal is to be sure we don't out the cop and doctor, so that tommorow we can have 3 people cleared and auto-win it with a cleared vt, doctor, and macho cop.

I like bird more for the simple fact we get a huge safety net in comparison, so yeah, my agenda is pretty dang clear.

[Irrelephant11]

K I’m back
Hope everyone had a good Christmas

[xyzzy]

Elsa Jay, is 158 about me? you use he/him pronouns to the person you're referring to but you seem to be referring to my vote? anyway I am voting you because, as I said, I think there's definitely at least one game where you're scum. also, I never agreed to doing one game first.

[Errantparabola]

Votecount 1.5

C14

Elsa Jay

(1): xyzzy

No Lynch

(1): Maki Harukawa

Not Voting

(5): Pine, Taly, Elsa Jay, Irrelephant11, Persivul

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to achieve majority.

--

B7

Elsa Jay

(2): Taly, xyzzy

xyzzy

(2): Maki Harukawa, Elsa Jay

Not Voting

(3): Pine, Irrelephant11, Persivul

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to achieve majority.

Deadline in (expired on 2019-01-04 17:37:00)

Persivul is V/LA until the 31st.
Sending out a mass holiday prod.

[Elsa Jay]

Got the Christmas poke, so I'll answer anything posted when I wake up tommorow. Gotta go to bed now.

[Taly]

VLA over. Will definitely catch-up sometime within the next few hours. (Which unfortunately, doesn't seem like much to catch-up on. x-x)

[Irrelephant11]

Oh yeah this
And we still have a week okay good

[Irrelephant11]

A confirmed townie being able to offer input in a game they are dead in is invaluable even if they cant vote, fuzzy. Why get rid of the unique mechanic like that?

There's nothing special about the reads of a dead person.

If this were true, tree stumps would just stump D1. They generally don't do that.

This is true, and I don’t really understand why Elsa feels like a player who’s dead in one game is somehow more useful in the other game.

I don’t feel as strongly as FA about what “ideal play” is here but I think Pine makes good points about how separating the lynches will make it harder to hit scum

When the setup only provides for one mislynch, we can't be basing lynches on statistics.

Is someone basing lynched on statistics? Idk what you’re talking about here

I also think Persivul’s “meh” read on me is B

After our last meeting you should be happy with "meh."

Persivul please explain your read on me

I said that, after you had one conversation with another person, I was "meh," i.e. null, on you. Your repeated requests for an explanation of my read feels forced - like you're scum paranoid that you don't look townie enough, and you want to know why so you can correct it.

C14: Unvote

B7: Unvote

B7: FOS Irrelephant

Or maybe after our last game I want you to explain your read on me *before* trying to get me lynched so I can defend myself against a baseless accusation? Literally my request makes perfect sense based on our last game and your refusal to answer my question is scummy

Nope, not the only reason

Hey, I've got an idea - you could actually, you know...explain the reason.

Some reasons are defeated through explanation. Unfortunately, Taly's analysis in 118 is spot-on, and therefore defeated. The claim was to see what you people would do with it.

In my experience, laying out strict dichotomies like this usually indicates a flawed model. Your assumption is "I wouldn't do that as Town, so therefore a false claim must be scum." Well I ain't you, mate.

Call me old school. I understand that Lynch All Liars has gone out of fashion, but I think that's a mistake.

It isn't that it's gone out of fashion, it's that the core flaw has been discovered and dissected, and the strategy as a whole has been discarded. The fact of the matter is that there are numerous good reasons for Townies to tell less than the truth, and enforcing the old LaL strategy limits viable strategies.

Case in point, you pushing my claim too hard and stubbornly forcing your false dichotomy has exposed the gambit and halted the flow of really solid reactions from people who didn't know how to handle it.

Good job!

I townread Pine for this post and 107, but only if Pine summarizes what he learned from this reaction test at some point

[Irrelephant11]

I thought I was doing a decent job in causing uncessacary conflict to draw out scum by being ignorant and seeing who would gun for me.

Can I have some townread now?

Lol
I scumread the self-conscious desire to be townread
But I townread the boldness

I thought I was doing a decent job in causing uncessacary conflict to draw out scum by being ignorant and seeing who would gun for me.

Can I have some townread now?

Nope.

Lolol

Persivul please explain your read on me

I said that, after you had one conversation with another person, I was "meh," i.e. null, on you. Your repeated requests for an explanation of my read feels forced - like you're scum paranoid that you don't look townie enough, and you want to know why so you can correct it.

C14: Unvote

B7: Unvote

B7: FOS Irrelephant

Your push on

Irrelephant

thus far seems focused around his read on you... Also, I don't know what meeting you've had with

Irrelepehant

before, but 116 is dismissive of him.

Can you post-link or point out specific things about what he's said to emphasize your point?

@Persivul's 114

I actually want to know why

Maki

and

Elsa

would rather do B7 first because I'm not seeing the reason that makes B7

"slightly more complicated"

This feels a liiiiittle White-knight-y
But also I would also like the underlined

Your push on

Irrelephant

thus far seems focused around his read on you...

Not at all. I'm not even sure what his read on me is, would need to go back and check. I'm suspicious of him because he's so concerned about

my

read on

him

. As I clearly said.

Also, I don't know what meeting you've had with

Irrelepehant

before, but 116 is dismissive of him.

In our last game, we were both town, and I led a push on him and got him lynched. He was kinda pissed about it, but we kissed and made up afterward.

Yes and the reason you mislynched me was you never explained my read, so I never got a chance to defend myself or explain the things you were scumreading
This is why my read on you is dependent on your explanation of your read on me (which, you still have not given a reason for the original “meh” read - you’ve just justified suspecting me since I asked)
If you’re genuinely scumhunting I don’t think you’d be scumreading my play so far based on our last game together and that’s why I care to here more about your read on me

19 hours to a bored Elsa is an eternity, and you were gone for 19 hours.

I have to admit this kinda struck me as towny
This might just be a play style + “defining ideal play” difference
UNVOTE: both
I’ll re evaluate tomorrow

I...don't know how I feel about this considering it came right after my post. Irrele did you see my post or not before you posted this. Because while yes I agree with the whole point in this quote the fact you unvoted right after is weirding me out slightly.

?
Yes I saw your post.
You said something about how my anger didn’t match the situation, and I was reminded of other times where I’ve scumread people because we didn’t get along more than because they were actually playing in a scummy way. I invited to make sure Elsa didn’t get rushed toward a lynch while I thought more about which of the two it is (no conclusion yet, still catching up).
Why is that “weirding you out”?

Yeah, I think you're acknowledging specific posts and dodging others purposefully.

VOTE: B7 vote Elsa Jay

This is weak

Agree actually
I’d been townreading Taly before this for having strong analysis but maybe I was doing so too easily
I mean I still townlean Taly for pushing a lot of the right buttons at the right times but this vote is not stellar

Pine could be scum but I doubt he got scum in both games so there's town motivation in that reaction test regardless. Certain people fell for it and in xy/pers XY pings me more

Can you talk more about the difference between Xyzzy and Persivul here?

Because teasing my friends entertains me.

Cool story. However, given that we've never (to my recollection and your user profile) played a game together or significantly interacted before, I don't buy it.

Quoting to remind myself of this interaction later

[Pine]

Re: the interaction with Maki, it was invalidated when she identified herself.

[Irrelephant11]

Re: 152
I continue to agree with xyzzy on the highest EV way to play this setup (lynch scummiest player in both games) especially given “play one at a time” is showing itself to be very hard, partially because holidays
Re: my point about Maki being a stretch - true, probably, but I still wanted to point it out in case that’s what it was
Agree that 87 kinda sounds like BS

[Irrelephant11]

Because teasing my friends entertains me.

Cool story. However, given that we've never (to my recollection and your user profile) played a game together or significantly interacted before, I don't buy it.

I'm Maria you dingbat <3

Oh interestingggggf

We Maria's got to stick together, right?

VOTE: B7 Xyzzy

Why are you voting xyzzy?

I have decided to extend the deadline for 2 days. Prods will also not be going out until the 26th. Anyone against this motion -- speak now, etc.

Thanks mod

Pine tell me what I'm doing wrong here. Why is xyzzy voting me?

Are you voting xyzzy because you don’t know why he’s voting you?

[Irrelephant11]

My agenda this game is to make sure I win both games for town. If I must focus on Bird, my goal is to be sure we don't out the cop and doctor, so that tommorow we can have 3 people cleared and auto-win it with a cleared vt, doctor, and macho cop.

I like bird more for the simple fact we get a huge safety net in comparison, so yeah, my agenda is pretty dang clear.

This is probably the best post you’ve made in terms of discussing ideal play
I don’t scumread your desire to have two separate lynches now I guess

[Elsa Jay]

Elsa Jay, is 158 about me? you use he/him pronouns to the person you're referring to but you seem to be referring to my vote? anyway I am voting you because, as I said, I think there's definitely at least one game where you're scum. also, I never agreed to doing one game first.

Since you use they I've been switching between male and female pronouns. Gives me something entertaining to do.

The game of mafia is about trying to have the majority agree on a viable strategy for success. Clearly if most agree with 1 way the rest have to suck it up and do it that way.

You also are misreading me still, because I just want us to have the safety net. People are still misreading my urge to have more people around day 2 as well for some reason.

[Pine]

Gender is not a dichotomy.

Respect their wishes.

[Elsa Jay]

She'll be fine as long as i dont conform to one thing. He's probably dealt with worse.

[Irrelephant11]

Elsa can you talk more about why you want more people around D2?
For example, what’s the difference in your mind between lynching Player A who flips scum and Player B who flips vt as compared to double-lynching Player C who flips both scum and vt?

[Elsa Jay]

Elsa can you talk more about why you want more people around D2?
For example, what’s the difference in your mind between lynching Player A who flips scum and Player B who flips vt as compared to double-lynching Player C who flips both scum and vt?

I want to take advantage of the setup and the unique mechanic. I want it it be realized that if we lynch someone and they do flip VT/scum, we still just put 1 game at an amazing advantage while we put the other in an uncomfortable LyLo situation, which I'm trying to prevent an easy town win at the cost of the other game.

If we lynch the scummy person now in 1 game, we DON'T flip them in the other for the simple reason being that if they flipped town in the 1 game we know that it's incredibly likely for them to be scum in the other and be able to lynch them day 2 in the other one so as to prevent a day 2 victory. And if they flip scum, well atleast we got them killed in that game.

Hanging 2 separately scummy players is more optimal then you think when we can compare notes between the results in day 2, an ability we lose if we go for the old fashioned single lynch idea.

[Irrelephant11]

Lol @ “old fashioned”
I sort of see your point about knowing more D2 about Player A and Player B’s alignments after flipping 1/2 of each of them, but there’s still no guarantee that (for example) the scummy player who flipped town in one game is definitely scum in the other game I.e. it might take to long to learn we need to re evaluate if we make mistakes

I guess I’m not sure which I’d rather at this point

I need to reread Maki, the Maria reveal is interesting

[Taly]

:/ I did not get nearly the amount of responses, quotations, and questions as I'd like in the past 3 days.

*Read my ISO if I mention something you do not recall*

@Maki

Why are you ignoring me? I've had several posts that explicitly addressed a response from you or mentioned a read on you and you haven't replied to them.

This approach was a major reason why my scumread on

Elsa

had gotten stronger prior to my VLA, but you nor

Irrelephant

looked at my posts detailing my thoughts on

Elsa

in a full read before writing off the vote in of itself as weak.

I'd also like

Irrelephant

to expand on why he agreed with you on this, without stating his own reasoning.

@Elsa

Do you agree with a No Lynch in C14,

Elsa

? As I assume

Maki

would like, judging by her vote?

Also, why haven't you made any commentary on my read/posts toward you?

@xyzzy

Where did you get the idea that I scumread low activity players?

Has your opinion on how to handle this game changed with

Elsa's

recent explanations?

[Taly]

*non-game post*

Gender is not a dichotomy.

Respect their wishes.

Also this,

Elsa

, don't trivialize

xyzzy's

pronoun preferences.

[Elsa Jay]

-ship snip-

@Elsa

Do you agree with a No Lynch in C14,

Elsa

? As I assume

Maki

would like, judging by her vote?

Also, why haven't you made any commentary on my read/posts toward you?

-ship-

Of either game to get a No Lynch, Carbon is literally out of the question. It only has the seer around to save them. That one needs a lynch no matter what. Both of them do, but Carbon in particular.

[Irrelephant11]

@Taly I think your “Elsa is ignoring some posts” case is actually pretty well-founded, but in isolation “it seems like you’re ignoring posts” doesn’t seem like all that strong of a *scum* case (since town ignore posts sometimes too - which is what’s frustrating you now)

B7 vote: Persivul