Mini Normal 2119 [game over]

[Iconeum]

If you’re townreading Ico you have some gaps in what Ico claimed unless you assume Dat roleblocked Ico which Ico seems to be going against in his own posts.

Datis has claimed a roleblock on menal and aaron.

I claimed the roleblock happened on menal and strongly implied that datisi performed it PRIOR to this.

All of this is a fact.

[Iconeum]

setting up what mislynch exactly?

Aaron it was in the post I quoted.

Gtg

Can you think about this a little deeper?

If i'm scum, then I tracked/rolecopped (pick whatever scum power you like) aaron, found out he is at least a PR, and then decided to publicly out him to set up a mislynch?

To do what? Burn all my credit?

Or could scum!me just say nothing, ride the credit from the UBER buss on day 1, get someone else lynched, and then NIGHTKILL said power role?

I didn't even push aaron after his claim. Like, I backed down because of his claim. I was befuzzled. Because I was wrong.

[Iconeum]

setting up what mislynch exactly?

Aaron it was in the post I quoted.

Gtg

That post and my reply was specifically to datisi but ok.

[Iconeum]

and ico

if you are town tracker/follower you have played really badly so bad that i cant see a town role doing you actions

you calim to have tracked datisi but why?

continued in next post have to find relavant quote

Icon is like the most obvtown I think I’ve ever seen him be and I’m pretty sure that any attempts to discredit him are scum motivated

Occam’s is that Ivón didn’t decide to uberbus and then make the weirdest fucking claim ever as scum and to fuck it up

I think it’s much more plausible town!icon fucks up his claim than scum!icon where he’d be a lot more careful to have his story in order

but his actions were awful. I just dont get them and for bit they left me scum reading him. If it were not for the fact that for him to be scum then town would be missing a town pr. The way he claimed to be tellign his results was oh so similar to scum fishign for teh last power role.

it actual reminds me bit of the time he was town tracker

. H

is nigth actions were awful then to

o. I think he tracked me one of his town reads in that game over one of his scum reads. One of which made teh nigth kill that night

VOTE: bob
VOTE: bob
VOTE: bob
VOTE: bob
VOTE: bob
VOTE: bob

[Iconeum]

That's cool. I had the pleasure recently of playing a game with Math as well.

It's a finished game but I don't know if we are allowed to talk about it yet.

[Iconeum]

If you were tracker/follower. Then you woudl ahve know that datisi visited menal. But all you ever did was said equivalent of "oh yes your right datisi"

@bob are you gonna redact this statement or finally prove it? Because i'm saying straight to your face that this is a lie.

U've been twisting and turning facts, and when I point out ur lying you just ignore it and go on to the next part and so on.

[Iconeum]

Looker's claim if false would throw off town's evaluation of scum power. Just something to keep in mind as we all delve further into setup spec discussion that Slaxx did not want us to do (but I personally have no problem with).

It's not looker's claim that makes him town.

[Iconeum]

BJI what is your current solve in this game?

[Iconeum]

I still feel we win this if we lynch bob into one of math/micc and in this order

[Iconeum]

I'm only allowed to paraprase.

I targeted menal and got a result that said the equivalent of 'it looks like menal didn't go anywhere and it looks like menal didn't use any action'

[Iconeum]

the important part is the 'it looks like' (is paraphrase) as opposed to 'your target didn't go anywhere' that makes me unsure of what actually happened

is that clear enough?

[Iconeum]

when i got a result there was nothing ambiguous about it.

clearly said that player 'did' and 'went' (also paraphrases)

[Iconeum]

reads bji

gimme them reads

[Iconeum]

That’s actually pretty balanced if Tracker/Follower could be goon and last line strongman. Ico if scum could be anything as he always “backed up” other claims. If your summary is accurate. There’s no reason to believe Ico is truthful.

It's a very long shot but ok, maybe I could have figured out datisi was the roleblocker.

How are you explaining that I knew who the roleblocker targeted?

[Iconeum]

Can this shitpush from both bob and math be scum? Can both be scum?

Do scum gain anything from going this strong against me with an extremely shitty case that's being dismantled and with counterFACTS being ignored by them.

Or do they just nightkill me instead?

I don't think this push on me is town-town

[Iconeum]

We agree on bob.

We should lynch there and whoever is alive tomorrow needs to work from there.

Both micc and math would make sense.

If math (sky slot) is scum, that would make a ton of sense wrt to Micc's play.

[Iconeum]

People are pushing me on moving BJI up in my reads, but I feel BJI is really towning up these last couple days.

[Iconeum]

Micc is pretty much a universal scumread yet not being directly pushed which is odd.

Ico—-At least one scum mathematically is on the D1 wagon. Obviously you won’t say who but who? And how have they been contributing to the mislynches so far? The hunting has been OFF wagon and that through NKs and lynches has been proven somewhat if not entirely incorrect.

@Group actually this should be a group question. Look at your scumreads. Do they make sense with what has happened so far?

You are clearly lacking any kind of understanding of game events. There was no double bus., maybe 1.

[Iconeum]

If you’re townreading Ico you have some gaps in what Ico claimed unless you assume Dat roleblocked Ico which Ico seems to be going against in his own posts.

Datis has claimed a roleblock on menal and aaron.

I claimed the roleblock happened on menal and strongly implied that datisi performed it PRIOR to this.

All of this is a fact.

@math and bob, please respond

setting up what mislynch exactly?

Aaron it was in the post I quoted.

Gtg

Can you think about this a little deeper?

If i'm scum, then I tracked/rolecopped (pick whatever scum power you like) aaron, found out he is at least a PR, and then decided to publicly out him to set up a mislynch?

To do what? Burn all my credit?

Or could scum!me just say nothing, ride the credit from the UBER buss on day 1, get someone else lynched, and then NIGHTKILL said power role?

I didn't even push aaron after his claim. Like, I backed down because of his claim. I was befuzzled. Because I was wrong.

@math please respond

setting up what mislynch exactly?

Aaron it was in the post I quoted.

Gtg

That post and my reply was specifically to datisi but ok.

@math please respond

If you were tracker/follower. Then you woudl ahve know that datisi visited menal. But all you ever did was said equivalent of "oh yes your right datisi"

@bob are you gonna redact this statement or finally prove it? Because i'm saying straight to your face that this is a lie.

U've been twisting and turning facts, and when I point out ur lying you just ignore it and go on to the next part and so on.

@bob please respond

That’s actually pretty balanced if Tracker/Follower could be goon and last line strongman. Ico if scum could be anything as he always “backed up” other claims. If your summary is accurate. There’s no reason to believe Ico is truthful.

It's a very long shot but ok, maybe I could have figured out datisi was the roleblocker.

How are you explaining that I knew who the roleblocker targeted?

@math please respond

Can this shitpush from both bob and math be scum? Can both be scum?

Do scum gain anything from going this strong against me with an extremely shitty case that's being dismantled and with counterFACTS being ignored by them.

Or do they just nightkill me instead?

I don't think this push on me is town-town

@everyone?


->> I've been shitpushed by both bob and math here. I'm literally giving you the FACTS about what happened to disprove the both of you, and NEITHER of you are engaging with me over this. You just ignore it.

Why is that?

And if you say all of what i'm saying is a lie, then FUCKING READ THE POSTS. IT'S RIGHT THERE.

[Iconeum]

Very unlikely. Otherwise the Ico +bji wagon on bob takes off. The fact there is resistance makes SvS unlikely imho.

I hear ya. It's very hard to get any kind of traction on bob. Feels strangely familiar to another lynch this game

[Iconeum]

I still feel we win this if we lynch bob into one of

math

bji/micc and in this order

i don't necesarilly disagree with this

[Iconeum]

yo bob friendly reminder i have a couple outstanding Q's to you

[Iconeum]

menal are you seriously scum reading for saying actual ico is just prob being idiot and not capable of the simple thing of working out that datisi was rb and he would target you. I assessed his meta after and conclude this

has no one noticed not once have i pushed for ico to even be voted. ive been clear im against as the slot is self resolving

quote got messed

You are extremely downplaying the push you did on me. Were you literally asking for votes on me? Mabye not. But you were very strongly scumreading me based on wrong/twisted facts and when you got called out on that you switched to 'this bad play can't possibly come from scum' into 'ive seen town!ico do this stupid shit before so he's probably just scum here'

there's all kinds of bad with you

[Iconeum]

na was just ripping your play apart

no you were clearly pushing me as scum

and also something else that i'll put in a seperate post

[Iconeum]

As for this game to be balanced one of town pr claims has to be scum. Esp considering that we had cop.

Bob would be voting Looker or Ico today if he really meant the quoted text. Slaxx and Datisi flips only strengthen the statement he made above. His scum reads for today don't even have any pr claims in it.

Bob put Slaxx at L-1 and then left him there even when one of this scum reads (Micc) had claimed intent to hammer, and now today he's trying to distance himself from the Slaxx lynch by claiming that he really didn't want the lynch and was going to unvote if given some more time.

why would i be going after looker or ico

one looker isnt a town pr. Thats a negative town role intended to balance town if looker is town. And i cant realy see scum looker hammering chemist after a doc claim. There was every chance chemist wagon would break up after that claim. Does scum looker realy hammer his buddy in that situation.

And why does chem stick with bugs vote on looker if all it achieves is trading places with another scum. if looker was scum chem would of gone after wilky.


And when chem/bugs wagon was going on countless times you were actualy shading looker. even if you are pushing a lynch with back hander you are still pushing a lynch.

Second

why would i go after ico

. we have 3 flipped town pr rolestopper,roleblocker and cop

now ico is for sure confirmed follower

. Slaxx claimed he was roleblocked day 2 as aaron still died. Scum are not goign to have follow/doc/roleblocker

but with ico n2 action i think before datisi even confirmed said menal had been rb.

so scum based on slaxx has 2 pr. town has 3 pr confirmed. based on that its highly likely we have a fourth

ico your a scum joat arnt you

Oh and ico you only ever fished for rb on day 2.

If you were tracker/follower. Then you woudl ahve know that datisi visited menal. But all you ever did was said equivalent of "oh yes your right datisi"

So much fishing

Scum on day two knew town had roleblocker. They know a town roleblocker would never visit slaxx.

Ico if you were town then you would know that for aaron to die slaxx had to be disabled or bypassed. And scum is not goign to have 3 pr roles. So if datisi was scum then he woudl have visited slaxx.

Thus for slaxx to die datisi must be town. Why did you out him ico?

But you didnt you just kept fishing. Until he claimed.

ico you claiming like that was quite bold move. so how many role do you have in your jaot

clearly you have atleast strongman and follower

Care to quote were you said datisi rb menal before datisi did. All i can see is you bouncing around the issue

so how did this line of thinking evolve exactly, bob?

you were damn sure, like 100% convinced my claim at least was legit. then you confirm i claimed menal been rb'd before datisi.

Then you push the opposite as your main reason to scumread me.

Hmm?

[Iconeum]

Also if you had datisi down as a likely town PR why didn’t you spend more time trying to work with her when she was around

Do i look like soem who works with other players. A player could be confirmed town and i wouldnt bother.

Oh but im the one withb poor play?

Can you answer my post about how your read changed about me being conf and the the opposite

[Iconeum]

Bob im tired just like you

If you want to keep bashing me because i suck then fuck off i play this for Fun and i don't need someone like youtelling me that in every single post

Explain your progress kon and ill vote elsewhere

[Iconeum]

I hope i don't have to talk to datisi post game about her menal townread

[Iconeum]

hey look i'm alive

much fun

[Iconeum]

Dat blocks Ico is still a possible world.

DATISI HAS CLAIMED TO NOT HAVE BLOCKED ME

THIS IS CONFIRMED IN THE GAME

ALL HER RESULTS HAVE BEEN CLAIMED

[Iconeum]

hey look i'm alive

much fun

Hey look got results?

same type of a negative result i had prev day, on micc

[Iconeum]

If red, bloccing Micc. If green, heaven and hell help us all.

Literally her last post before dying.

She could have blocked you.

oooh you mean that night

i'm talking about the nights of which she claimed obviously

[Iconeum]

i'm fairly sure she didn't, and that she hard townread me into the grave fyi

[Iconeum]

let's see

who am i willing to lose this game to

[Iconeum]

if i had to choose right now without thinking too hard about this

scumteam is micc + bji

ultimate town because of the D1 shenanigans
menal town because datisi told me
and i'm town

[Iconeum]

Bob's most important point to me was that scum were guaranteed succing up to me

bji absolutely fits that bill

and i've not forgotten emps (sorry mic)

[Iconeum]

i'm fairly sure she didn't, and that she hard townread me into the grave fyi

That’s not how I read that.
To me that says, I am resetting my reads f this game.

I wouldn’t consider Dat townreading you based on that.

it's not that important

she could have roleblocked me yes

[Iconeum]

can't say that i'm following our thoughts no

[Iconeum]

can't say that i'm following our thoughts no

You are the only PR.

You are a PR that could get a guilty.

For all intents and purposes as town you should be dead unless scum have a good reason to keep you alive.

So either you’re scum or scum had some benefit to keeping you alive.

There is no “but Dat is a RB argument”. They killed Looker over you.

So why do you think you lived?

N1 no information for scum, they killed 1 of the most obv town players that was an important slot in the scum lynch

N2 cop kill

N3 roleblocker kill

N4 ascetic kill <-- this over me indicates scum can block me and/or i'm the/one of the intended mislynches

which makes me think scum left the both of us alive because you would be coming after me, seeing the prev day


why they didn't kill me? probably because i was leashable

[Iconeum]

the big debate is why roleblocker over me

and the only answer to that will be in scum power

[Iconeum]

menal hasn't been setting me up as lynch

you hard pushed yesterday, but are a bit easier today so it doesn't feel like that

[Iconeum]

i'll be catching up today, rereading

corona and home and stuff

[Iconeum]

math i'll be happy to work with you today IF you decide to fact check lol

[Iconeum]

I want it to be bji and micc, menal

I really do

I'll have time tomorrow

[Iconeum]

I still can't believe that Ico would or could fake Its claimed role and alignment given Its posts this game. So unless something really groundbreaking happens, Ico is in my Will Not Vote pile.

what do you think of bji posting this icon?

it's consistent with his previous day, and if i'm the designed mislynch i don't see how bji is scum here?

unless all it takes is someone like math (based on his attack on me prev day) to vote me and they pile up on me

like given there were 2 scum left and micc was probably the most suspect, it seems like this would be the time to go for a paranoia check on me or math if you had any doubts at all, because scum!either of us was pretty much a lock to be performing the kill fypov?

i've already checked you before, and datisi blocked you before
if there's scum, i expect them to double play this, IE use there more scummy player to perform action(s) and let their deepwolf stay safe

Fake vote count is
Bji (2) - Me, Micc

If anyone fake hammers Bji then he has 24 hours to real vote or scum claim.

I am exhibiting symptoms of Corona so I might have to real vote if I get hospitalized. But right now I am mild.

consider my vote on bji

[Iconeum]

i'm willing to lose to math+menal

[Iconeum]

Such a bad feeling about this

[Iconeum]

Menal and micc hmm

Cool

[Iconeum]

Menal with the strenge position to bugs wagon for which i have to town him frrom datisi
But whyyy

And if menal town then bji the busser

[Iconeum]

Matt why arent you pushing me harder

[Iconeum]

Current gmestate just smell like menal and micc scum

[Iconeum]

Yolo or not hmm

[Iconeum]

Who town

Me menal skyslot?

[Iconeum]

what's optimal play for me here, town?

[Iconeum]

Looking for two town

All my townread thought menal and Sky town

Only conclusion left is micc and bji scum

[Iconeum]

Is micc bussing now

[Iconeum]

Im just gonna do my own read i guess

[Iconeum]

VOTE: micc

[Iconeum]

VOTE: bji

[Iconeum]

Matt if ur town and bji scum

I hope you can townread me tomorrow if im alive

Otherwise micc over menal

[Iconeum]

Looks like this ain't over yet then judging from both your reactions

[Iconeum]

Math ur push against me was scummy as fuck as Well

Lies and Postema

And when pointing that out you went 'yeah u couldcjust be lying now'

[Iconeum]

Targeted micc

Samen result as prev two nights

[Iconeum]

To be clear, the result you’re claiming is the equivalent of a No Result and not a Didn’t Visit, right? And you’ve verified with the moderator that you would see those things differently?

I've not verified that specifically, but I will. I'm actually assuming that I either get a result like in the first couple days, or one like i'm getting the last couple days.

[Iconeum]

oh boy that math kill is kinda incriminating to me don't you think, micc?

[Iconeum]

now which one of you two bussed his partner yesterday

and why did you kill math, who was 150% sure to vote me today?

[Iconeum]

Datisi blocked Menalque night 2.

huh right

so if scum have an interfering role, ur conf scum

thanks

*votes micc*

[Iconeum]

in real short and easy to understand words

i will rather lose to menal here then to micc

i don't think i can forgive myself voting menal and losing the game to a slot that i've been calling scum all friggin game

[Iconeum]

Micc if you are town

you need to start pushing menal

[Iconeum]

Spoiler:

I could see piecing together Datisi's role. I could see having an ability to know Datisi targeted Menalque N2.

but even then the scum team would have taken Icon, who is in very good standing after leading a scum lynch D1 and had him fakeclaim a guilty D2 on Aaron for what reason? Even if the scum team found out aaron was a Cop through N1 actions, the play is to shoot aaron N2. Not to have the person best setup to deepwolf fakeclaim a guilty.

Combined Tracker Follower is very much allowed under normal guidelines.

That’s not what he claimed though.

And if he is a tracker follower he’d be a second cop which goes back to the point you haven’t addressed about Jill priority.

Wondering if it’s Ico+Micc here actually.

yes, his claim was very very messy. You need to read the 5-10 pages that came with it if you haven't already. I was in your shoes and argued many of the points you're arguing. fwiw Datisi has a much better relationshop with icon than anyone here and vouched for these mistakes to be within icon's town range multiple times. and I actually trust that silly as it seems

Combined has been Normal as of this announcement despite the wiki not being clear. You're welcome to verify with the mod or listmod. As a sidenote, this game has brought to light a lot of holes in how normal role interactions are defined and I expect you will see things more clearly laid out once NRG has a chance to review the problems from this game.

predit: I'm glad you're reading the follow up to his claim at least. that context matters I think

Spoiler:

but even then the scum team would have taken Icon, who is in very good standing after leading a scum lynch D1 and had him fakeclaim a guilty D2 on Aaron for what reason? Even if the scum team found out aaron was a Cop through N1 actions, the play is to shoot aaron N2. Not to have the person best setup to deepwolf fakeclaim a guilty.

Lots of assumptions there:

1) Ico didn’t lead the wagon it was a stagnant vote as pointed out in earlier VCs.
2) He didn’t fake claim a guilty of any sort. He was using what he knew to be true to mislead and try to townfirm himself. I did this really well in Shadowrun where we had a nightly hood/message and convinced the cop to never be on the person we wanted to kill. Scum is about making things seem true that are false and vice versa and being in a good position.
3) The reasoning for Ico’s actions was to establish a fake claim that was believable. Ico was heading towards too Townie territory so needed to get mechanical trust to stick around.

One more point here before I drop Icon discussion for the night:

~90% of my exposure to mafia being from the newbie queue leads me away from considering situations where the scum team has range as strong as you’re describing here. Newbies just don’t come to the site with that much scum range as a general rule.

A good portion of the site doesn’t have the scum range you’re describing here. I certainly don’t. I’ll take your word for it that you do, we haven’t crossed paths enough for me to gauge your meta. My impression of Icon is that he doesn’t have this kind of scum range, and Datisi who I believe to be a trustworthy judge of icon’s range was pretty adamant that this isn’t it.

So even if you're right about icon and the scum team to have set all this up, I’m more in the ‘they’ll have earned their win’ camp than anything else.

Predit: icon showing up means I’m probably not keeping up now that I’m on phone and will likely pack it in till tomorrow.

Spoiler:

but even then the scum team would have taken Icon, who is in very good standing after leading a scum lynch D1 and had him fakeclaim a guilty D2 on Aaron for what reason? Even if the scum team found out aaron was a Cop through N1 actions, the play is to shoot aaron N2. Not to have the person best setup to deepwolf fakeclaim a guilty.

Lots of assumptions there:

1) Ico didn’t lead the wagon it was a stagnant vote as pointed out in earlier VCs.
2) He didn’t fake claim a guilty of any sort. He was using what he knew to be true to mislead and try to townfirm himself. I did this really well in Shadowrun where we had a nightly hood/message and convinced the cop to never be on the person we wanted to kill. Scum is about making things seem true that are false and vice versa and being in a good position.
3) The reasoning for Ico’s actions was to establish a fake claim that was believable. Ico was heading towards too Townie territory so needed to get mechanical trust to stick around.

One more point here before I drop Icon discussion for the night:

~90% of my exposure to mafia being from the newbie queue leads me away from considering situations where the scum team has range as strong as you’re describing here. Newbies just don’t come to the site with that much scum range as a general rule.

A good portion of the site doesn’t have the scum range you’re describing here. I certainly don’t. I’ll take your word for it that you do, we haven’t crossed paths enough for me to gauge your meta. My impression of Icon is that he doesn’t have this kind of scum range, and Datisi who I believe to be a trustworthy judge of icon’s range was pretty adamant that this isn’t it.

So even if you're right about icon and the scum team to have set all this up, I’m more in the ‘they’ll have earned their win’ camp than anything else.

Predit: icon showing up means I’m probably not keeping up now that I’m on phone and will likely pack it in till tomorrow.

Nah Dat blocked Ico only way Ico would be town. I don’t see that if Dat was “that” sure. It’s much more likely Dat found the arguments convincing and roleblocked Ico and then the scumbuddy of Ico’s killed Dat.

Datisi was pretty adamant about all these things I'm saying. There was another memorable post that I can't seem to find right now that went along the lines of "I've seen Icon scum. This aint it".

Spoiler:

if you were anyone else i'd be screaming "scum" right now

That's lame. So you give only Ico free passes? Why?

no
my point was
iconeum is trully horrible with mechanics
and him fucking up the name of his own role, TWICE, is something i would usually condemn on a different player
but i know town!ico is very very capable of that

town!icon is very capable of fucking a claim up like this
like
extremely capable lmao

what the fuck is this setup

what the FUCK is this setup

yeah icon's play makes no fucking sense as scum
if he's found 2 stronk town PRs
the fuck is he doing lmao

oh yeah that
icon literally never misread his result
he called his role by the wrong name but he never misread his result
and considering he knew both (1) what action i used (follower) and (2) who i targeted (tracker) he's not fakeclaiming

@slaxx

because, in a game i recently modded, scum!emps got blocked by a town roleblocker and got lynched the day afterwards. I thought that if emps rolled scum here there was no way in hell he was doing the kill after that happened, especially after GL kept insisting emps never makes it to endgame is bugs flips red.

mechanically, Icon's role is confirmed because he, again, knew WHO i targeted and WHAT i did. "well he can be a scum tracker/follower." iconeum was THE driving force behind the bugs wagon. he is not scum in this game. I've played against scum!icon. This ain't it, chief. this ain't it.

ah yes, you mean me going from saying Aaron is my strongest SR at the start of Day 2 to literally doing anything i possibly can to divert away from his lynch once he claimed?

also, if you want a crumb, i've got that too.

Unless you're suspicious of me, there's nothing we have to work out together. I think you're scum, and I'm not giving you any logic to sheep or escape accountability from. Especially when you've avoided being on both of the last two lynch wagons. And emps was on me. I want you to bus on your own. It'll be easier to hold you accountable if you don't after the fact.

Not sure why you asked about where I'm considering voting if we have nothing to work out. and you've regularly been considering scum teams that don't have me in them. but also I'm such a strong scum read you're going to shut me out? I don't really get that. I just wanted to understand why you were considering icon because I think that's crazy talk, and I think you're a town vote that we can't afford to have voting wrong.

I don't feel I have enough support to do much this game anymore, so why don't ya'll state a townblock from which to solve this game?

I'm still strong town reading you and menalque.

probably voting bji today.

I had a thought about bji + menalque and now I can't get it out of my head.

I am exhibiting symptoms of Corona so I might have to real vote if I get hospitalized. But right now I am mild.

wishing you the best. stay safe.

could you try to towncase each of us?

also, would you say that your other votes were mostly PoE then?

the tldr is that you have a lot of posts that come from a mindset that I think would be difficult to fake as scum, there are some unique lines of analysis that go deep enough to feel like true solving and not scum pushing fake reads. For Icon I always come back to the aggressive claim day 2 as something that goes against everything that makes sense for him to be doing as scum. For math slot I see the frustration expressed by UT to be town too but I think I'm less sure than the general consensus coming from not having experienced it in real time. I think math's approach to solving has been genuine whereas there's a world where he can very easily win as scum by lynching me that's he's not taking - at least directly. Bji has some posts similar to menalque that I think show strong town mindset, but not nearly as many. I was able to pick out similar posts in the scum game of his that was linked, so feeling like these aren't the strongest things to be using to case bji as town.

I can pull quotes and give a more detailed case of any of those if you'll find it helpful. it will just have to come between checking in on work responsibilities over the next couple hours

I had a thought about bji + menalque and now I can't get it out of my head.

go on

this scum team justifies me not being lynched by day 5 better than any other. rereading days 2 and 3 in the context of you and bji setting up a micc + menalque + X lylo fit together way better than I expected.

micc

if menal is the scum here, then you need to continue on this thoughts process and keep working

otherwise i will end up voting you

[Iconeum]

well shit

[Iconeum]

I don’t understand how you can have a lack of understanding about how your results work at this stage. Or why you seem willing to vote despite that lack of understanding.

If you think there’s a world where you and I are Town you need to refute the mechanics I posted about.

How can I know what types or kinds of possible results I will get? This isn't a game where I get a list in advance that says:

'if you are roleblocked, you get type A result'
'if you are not interfered with, you get type B result'
etc

I'll check with the mod to be sure tho

I think there's a possibility we are the town here, but it's a longshot.

Try to make sense of what I failquoted, because that's literally the only track where the 2 of us win together

[Iconeum]

Do you think I’m Town or not icon?

You can’t be worried about where I’m voting until you’re convinced I’m Town.

I'm not sure.

I believe chances are higher that menal is town.

Both of you had equal amound of opportunity letting math alive to come after me tho

[Iconeum]

I think this comes down to a simple solution:

I wouldn't be alive if scum didn't have a way of dealing with my night action.
Menal got blocked night 2, while i definitely got a result.

= micc scum

------

Micc, you have been in this game for a long long while now. Do you think I can play like this as scum? Do you think I *would* play like this as scum?
By outing the friggin cop like that? By doing everything I did?

[Iconeum]

You said it yourself, this is very likely WAAAAY out of my scum range.
Menal said something about this as well.

I demand this day go down in a duel between micc and menal, and that I can

[Iconeum]

HAMMER

[Iconeum]

If your role PM doesn’t make those things clear it’s probably because you’re not a Combined Tracker Follower. That stuff is pretty explicitly defined in Normal games.

I've talked about this extensively tho, and paraphrased to the best of my ability to show how my result looks like.

[Iconeum]

If your role PM doesn’t make those things clear it’s probably because you’re not a Combined Tracker Follower. That stuff is pretty explicitly defined in Normal games.

Ok

[Iconeum]

the only concern i have today is:

why does scum!micc choose a 3p lylo with 2 players who were pretty much locking the game in at bji+micc by the end of the previous day

over a 3p lylo with math (and ico) who was very very likely gonna vote me today

[Iconeum]

it's clear now that i would have gotten a different kind of result if i was blocked

[Iconeum]

i'll leave the implications of that up to you guys

[Iconeum]

start spewing guys because otherwise i have a clear on micc

i wasn't blocked
micc isn't ascetic (as per wiki: would receive a no result - which isn't the case)
scum ninja isn't under normal guidelines, only for a serial killer)

what else is possible?

[Iconeum]

i asked clarification to the mod

if i was blocked i would have gotten a no result - i did not get a no result
targeting an ascetic would also give me a no result - i did not get a no result

i've received exactly 2 types of results this game:

very clear if result
and the same dubiously worded 'your target stayed at home' type of result

[Iconeum]

ducky, would a player with an investigative role receive two different results depending on whether they were blocked or whether they received a negative result?

this, per mod confirmation, is a yes

i would have gotten a no result upon any potential roleblocking

i specifically did NOT get a no result, at all, this game

[Iconeum]

You said it yourself, this is very likely WAAAAY out of my scum range.
Menal said something about this as well.

I demand this day go down in a duel between micc and menal, and that I can

icon this is gross, we're in lylo and one of the main people SRing you died last night

not sure if it's WIFOM setting you up or if it's you trying to eliminate a major threat and thinking I'm more likely to vote micc than math was but either way you absolutely don't get to take yourself out of the pool

you know what's gross? i think i have a clear and i'm not even sure about it

[Iconeum]

I mean in my normal review for the game I ran there was very specific feedback from the NRG that the results that players got should not give them an indication as to whether they didn't get a result due to being blocked somehow or due to not getting a result so I'm confused

the mod was very specific:

if i got blocked i would have gotten a no result type of pm, which is different from the type of pm i've been getting

it's very very strongly implied that i didn't get blocked and that i did not target an ascetic role


so my question is simple: what can result in micc not going anywhere and not using any action, if he's scum?


@menal, i don't see what's scummy about any of this? are you scared of getting stuck with a PoE guilty?

If i'm scum, i'm not playing these kind of shenanigans and you know it. I'd double down on micc without hesitation and it would probably work. You know this.

[Iconeum]

if that's true then ducky shouldn't have a problem confirming it in main thread too

but I'm finding this really hard to believe based on what was said in my NRG review

before the mod answers this in game: what would you make of either answer?

[Iconeum]

well frankly i don't know if it's literally impossible

but it's the answer i received from the mod and i'm sure he will say the same thing here

[Iconeum]

also what happened to me being miles outside my scumrange and your other townreads on me?

i don't see anything here that could or should change that

[Iconeum]

so my question is simple: what can result in micc not going anywhere and not using any action, if he's scum?

also this

it's important

i can't find

any

role that would interfere with mine that would still let me get an actual result

thus i need to consider the possible fact that i have a clear on micc - which means menal is town

--

if it weren't for that, i'd already be prepping a vote on micc

[Iconeum]

would think about if there's a way for micc to be scum but I think I'm leaning you!scum there too tbh, given how you seem to be playing this so far and trying paint a mech!clear on micc which leads to a logical scum!me for you

well yeah, if micc is mech scum you don't really have a lot of options to scumread i get that lol

that's why i need to know about what roles *could* be in game outside of roleblocker and ascetic that could interfere with me and still let me have a result

[Iconeum]

thus i need to consider the possible fact that i have a clear on micc - which means menal is town

errr

derp

[Iconeum]

i just verified my chat with the mod and my action result pm:

-i received a result that told me it looks like micc didn't go anywhere and that it looks like micc didn't use any kind of action

-IF i got roleblocked, i would receive a no result pm

-i never got a 'no result' type of pm this game, only the no action kind

[Iconeum]

is new claim that he got “didn’t visit” results

not new tho, i talked about this previously

[Iconeum]

Failing to distinguish between having the investigation fail and getting a “went no where” result is explicitly not normal.

If i reverse engineer this, then:

-Distinguishing between an investigative fail and a 'went nowhere' is explicitely normal

right?

because that's what i'm saying here

[Iconeum]

I'm only allowed to paraprase.

I targeted menal and got a result that said the equivalent of 'it looks like menal didn't go anywhere and it looks like menal didn't use any action'

the important part is the 'it looks like' (is paraphrase) as opposed to 'your target didn't go anywhere' that makes me unsure of what actually happened

is that clear enough?

this is the previous discussion about this

[Iconeum]

Geez the normal guidelines are garbage.

i want to note that the mod also pointed this out

something something full of lies something something

[Iconeum]

i looked up ninja and thought it said it was only normal for SK?

[Iconeum]

ok so it's there

but also

"There will almost never be any ill effects to sending a Ninja to perform the Mafia's kill, so as long as the Ninja is alive, Trackers and Watchers will simply never see the Mafia kill. This tremendously decreases the effectiveness of both roles, as they can no longer directly catch scum.'

this is literally the counter to my role lol

[Iconeum]

well yeah but if you're not lying then the breakdown of roles is like

rolestopper
roleblocker
ascetic townie
follower/tracker
informed cop

vs

informed doctor activated ascetic
informed encryptor
???

this information was available on the prev day as well, when you were basicly locktowning me. i don't see why that changes anything now, especially with the '...' possibly being ninja to neuter my role

[Iconeum]

from wiki

Use and Power

Assuming the rolestopper can block kills, it's a stronger protective role than the doctor. Its targets can't be cleared by investigative roles on the same night--but they also can't be roleblocked. In mafia hands, rolestoppers can protect their teammates from investigative roles (and vigs) from the start of the game without any need to identify them first. Rolestoppers are much more defensive than roleblockers, and can't shut down any specific power role even if they know who has it.

The version that cannot block kills is stronger for scum – you can rolestop the kill target to prevent Doctors interfering with kills – but so much weaker for Town that it's almost Negative Utility.

[Iconeum]

'assuming'


This game will be renamed to '99 problems and the wiki is 1'

[Iconeum]

bji role was anything but negative utility

[Iconeum]

a lot of mods don't consider scum daytalk as normal, and they give scum an encryptor to allow it. Which is ++ utility.

Just had this discussion in what I think is not an ongoing game (i was scum encryptor)

[Iconeum]

Like this game has an encryptor despite the OP saying that all PT’s have Daytalk.

what...

[Iconeum]

icon who did you say was your N2 target and are the rest correct?

i targeted datisi on N2, remember?

Ico targets aaron N1
Ico targets datisi N2
Ico targets menal N3
Ico targets micc N4
Ico targets micc N5

[Iconeum]

i think that confirms me as town actually

[Iconeum]

*something* beat the rolestop

both of you *know* i'm at least not lying about my actual role

i couldn't have gotten past the rolestop

[Iconeum]

even if you think scum is some kind of JOAT, i still had my results on datisi wrt to the roleblock and menal as target, so it's a non-argument

looks like i'll have my 1v1 between the 2 of you after all

[Iconeum]

and N2 datisi roleblocked menal

i think this is GG?

[Iconeum]

i'm not saying this actually happened yet but

imagine repping into a scummy slot, working your ass off to gain some kind of town momentum and then get caught like this in lylo

[Iconeum]

i don't see any error in my thoughts, so if there is kindly point them out, fellow town ;D

[Iconeum]

i think that's about the only argument anyone can bring against this - like mathblade suggested: i'm somehow capable of deducting what datisi is and who she targeted on the right night

[Iconeum]

so what do we have:

i knew datisi was roleblocker and whom she (or is it he nowadays?) targeted on night 2
menal was roleblocked on n2
something got thru the rolestop from slaxx onto aaron, who got killed

that literally leaves micc as scum

[Iconeum]

i'm trying to conftown myself here because that would make this a lot easier

[Iconeum]

I mean you could be a rolecop who targeted dats N1

i got a result on aaron N1, remember?

and if i'm a rolecop, how did i figure out she targeted you on N2?

and if i'm a rolecop, how did I kill on N2?

[Iconeum]

what i'm trying to say is:

scum have got to have something like ninja/strongman, and it's pretty obvious i'm not it

thus, i'm not scum

[Iconeum]

although hang on, both the scum were informed

yeah i'm scum and we were informed that aaron was a pr, and that datisi was a roleblocker who targeted you on N2

on top of that, i'm a strongman

[Iconeum]

oh yeah and we decided it was a good play that, after I got a TON of towncredit after day 1 lynch, I force-outed the town cop

[Iconeum]

3752 @ menal

reread it

[Iconeum]

i understand your reluctance in seeing me as conftown, but the facts are there i think:

i had information after night 2 on datisi, her role, AND target
i had information after night 1 on aaron and his target

aaron died thru a rolestop on night 2, which both flipped scum could not have pulled off

that means if you think i'm not conftown, that i'm scum who knew the information about datisi, role AND target while also powering thru a rolestop (one of the strongest protective roles in game) for a kill?

is it possible? yes? but such an incredible longshot

i think i should be close enough to conftown to take it, both of you

[Iconeum]

the only thing that's not confirmed is menal town because of roleblock, because both of you can be strongman

but that means micc is ninja+strongman where as menal could be strongman only?

[Iconeum]

i would like both of you to either prove me wrong, and then we can continue this 3-way action we got going

or confirm that i can't (or basicly can't) be scum here

menal has pointed out how creepy he thinks it is for me to keep pushing this, but from town!you this should be a good thing: you will KNOW who the scum is and then you can try to convince me where to vote

[Iconeum]

so did scum double bus chemist or only 1?

[Iconeum]

I worry more about scenarios where slaxx flips town. But at least i don’t have to play lylo so it’s not my problem.

(i'm rereading ISO's)

[Iconeum]

That requires scum!icon to have risked his very strong position in order to guess what type of action Datisi was using before Datisi had claimed it. There’s basically no upside to that play. Might even call it downside since Combined Tracker Follower is an ambitious claim in a game that already has an informed cop flip.

There’s maybe the argument that follower got tacked on to help justify outing Aaron D2. But if icon is scum and tracks town Aaron somewhere, the play isn’t for icon to jeopardize strong position to get a claim. Just use the strongman nightkill you’re theorizing about to kill the town PR.

this was pretty much the essence of both micc and menal's townreads on me earlier

[Iconeum]

I am NOT a rolecop, I'm just a cop, and I did check emps last night and got no result. What do you think Icon lying about?

huh i forgot about that


the cop didn't get a result on micc

neither of the flipped scum could interfere with a cop investigation directly, and i'm still alive despite being an investigative

so IF micc is scum, he has a (passive?) power that let's investigatives on himself fail or produce negative results

an active power would mean he blocked me prev night, while killing math so i think that's ruled out

thoughts?

[Iconeum]

so for micc to be scum, he'd have to have a power that let's him bypass a rolestop (strongman or roleblock on slaxx), and a power that makes him immune to investigation that is not ascetic (i would get no result, that didn't happen), AND be multitasking

[Iconeum]

whereas menal could be ninja strongman? that's the only thing that would ignore datisi's roleblock

holy shit and i thought i was gonna vote micc today lol

[Iconeum]

setup spec tells me to vote menal

gut and gamesense tell me to vote micc

[Iconeum]

but wait that doesn't explain why the cop didn't get a result on micc lol

am i missing something?

[Iconeum]

am i at #4000 yet?

no?

ok

[Iconeum]

i know i'm a bad player overall, no need to keep rubbing it in lol

there's a good chance i'll be deciding this game, so i'm just trying to get my facts straight

[Iconeum]

why isn't menal here

[Iconeum]

my brain right now:

[Iconeum]

everyone's reactions in dead thread after i make my vote - probably

[Iconeum]

only 1 real way to settle this

[Iconeum]

mine?

[Iconeum]

[Iconeum]

I did not start considering any Menalque scum teams until D5. But when I did there was a very clear picture.

I’m gunna paint if for you starting with the spoiler wall I posted earlier. All I ask is that you read it and seriously consider the things I’m saying.

Also it might take me another 24-36 hours to finish because vintage cube is up on mtgo and that’s really distracting.

Take whatever time you need, I'm currently rereading major parts of the game too. Got distracted by a pagetop tho.

[Iconeum]

i think it's not very productive for you to scumcase micc

but a vote/wagon analyse would be wonderful?

[Iconeum]

that's to the both of you

[Iconeum]

specifically the positions of menal and micc against both scum lynches

i'm trying myself but it's not easy

[Iconeum]

Scum!micc kills math, which means micc thinks it's possible i will vote menal over him. Unlikely?
Scum!menal kills math, which means menal thinks it's possible i will vote micc over him. More likely.

I think both of you had an easier time killing the othe dude and leaving math alive, because i'm fairly confident he'd vote me.

[Iconeum]

This reads Ico couldn’t put menal and micc together so bussed his buddy.

Pretty much confirms Menal town and bji flips red.

Remember to fake vote tomorrow people.

I really think menal is town here and it’s in Ico/Micc.

Ico if alive should have results.

These are maths last (barring the posts only referring me) reads.

Scum!micc has most to gain by killing math I think? He can't kill me for obv reasons, and killing menal puts it to a somewhat coinflip in the hands of math I think.

[Iconeum]

i really dont see town!ico playing like this tbh

intent to hammer in like 10 hrs or so

i dont trust myself to like wake up tmrw then just have my first thought be "i should hammer ico now" so hopefully i remember sometime in the evening lol

not bad associates at all uh huh sure jan

[Iconeum]

i'm so paranoid lol

don't really see how micc chooses this as his winning lylo, and def see why scum!micc would

[Iconeum]

second micc is menal

[Iconeum]

What was bji position on menal pushing against micc lynch

[Iconeum]

Micc everything you just said would be a reason for you to vote Ico or Aaron since from your perspective one of them must be lying. So why are you voting Pine?

Why are you asking Ico to confirm that Aaron wasn't blocked? Ico has already confirmed that at least once.

How do we know Aaron wasn’t blocked or interfered with? It would be awful play to claim a blocking ability as either alignment hereZero benefit to town and just giving info to scum

I'm telling you. Whatever happened that resulted in a 'no result' didn't occur on Aaron's end.

Also why do you conclude that Aaron must be scum and not Ico?

And, given the above, I can see no reason to lynch Pine over Micc. So:

VOTE: Micc

L-1

I have to get up in 6 hours, so good night all.

UNVOTE: Micc

VOTE: Pine

L-1 again, Pine.

@ducky what happens if a roleblocker and a rolestopper target each other?

I personally think the answer is obvious, but it's the mod's job to answer not mine.

What is the purpose of this question?

There’s not much help coming from that bit of mumbo jumbo besides making slaxx likely to be Town. Have to assume Roleblocker and not strongman to account for Aaron’s no result N1. Roleblock and nightkill is an action for both scum. Ruling out multitasking as too much scum power it follows that anyone not visiting N2 is town.

I think it’s time for icon to full claim. 1. Because he’s presumably held in check by the Rb until he dies and 2. If he’s got information that someone didn’t act on N2, that person is very likely town.

Micc explain again why "have to assume roleblocker and not strongman to account for Aaron's no result N1"? I don't follow.

Well, it kinda looks like icon

is

lying right now. But icon rolled back his claim that Aaron wasn’t messed with N1, which I took to mean aaron could still have been RB’d at the time I made posts your quoting.

Sorry, can you point out where Ico rolled back the claim? Because I must have missed that ... there was ALOT to read after all ...

Ftr I think it’s mechanically impossible for icon to be scum, and also that we can trust Datisi’s point that icon is way beyond his scum range.

Well I might be dense, but again, why can't Ico be a scum tracker and scum have a strongman?

Why can't that also explain everything?

So who is keeping me around?

Same question I had for Looker. Why do you think you would have been lynched over a cop and a protective role? I feel like you are begging the question here.

My train of thought here was to ask who is protecting me from a lynch, whereas I think you're interpreting it to be asking why I'm not night killed. I'm self aware enough to know that I'm very far down the nightkill priority list in this game.

Yeah I meant to ask why you would have been NK'd, not lynched, you interpreted my question correctly. Thanks for clarifying what you meant.

Micc, you are saying you voted bob because you thought he is probably better at scum than you are and thus would bus better than you would?

Can you give some reasons why you concluded that bob would be better than you are as scum?

OK I've done as much re-reading as I have time for.

Ico is town, I've already stated why I think this is true.

emps/Micc are town. emps play was null and Micc had plenty of opportunity to push Ico heavily but his resistance to that felt very genuine to me on re-read. Since I town read Ico and believe Ico's claim I think scum Micc would be more likely to try to get more effective doubt casting of Ico out of Ico's claim snafus.

Menalque is scum. Must have gotten lucky on missing being roleblocked and investigated. Also post 1121 is really bad on re-read. He is trying to maneuver the wagon away from Chem. Claims to want to lynch bob or Looker, but play after this completely ignores bob until I started a wagon on bob and then Menalque was happy to pile on. And 1211 makes no sense, seems like with Menalque's attitude he should just stay off of the chem wagon. Also why did he change in just a few posts from "chemist is likely town" to scum reading chemist in 1563? He consistently town read me in the early game but then slowly started scum reading me without providing reasons and now in 5p LYLO I am his top scum read.

Math is scum. I don't like how he pushed for Ico lynch yesterday and without any change in Ico status (and Ico being alive should make Math

more

suspicious, not less) is now town reading Ico. In fact Math appears to be willing to town read anyone who seems willing to vote me. Math keeps referencing quotes from other players that make me look worse (for example post 3673). Also Math pretending to need time to re-read the game to decide which of bob or I to hammer seemed fake because Math was really only scum reading me all day. Math didn't even interact with bob at all but made a point to keep up interaction with me. That smells of setting up a mislynch. And also Math is trying to use our previous game history as a reason to scum read me here when my play in our previous games when I was scum was

nothing

like my play in this game, so at worst my history should be NAI for Math, not evidence for scum!bji.

I think the UP/Menalque drama can be explained by the argument starting or intensifying in scum private thread. UP replaced out rather than continue to play with a partner that he couldn't get along with.

I think Menalque and Math have both worked to set me up as the winning mislynch today.

In terms of which I'd lynch first, I think Menalque is the better choice. His maneuvering me to the top of his scum reads was not as obvious to me as it slowly built during the game but on re-read it's clearer. The setting up of my mislynch is almost blatant.

Fake vote: Menalque

a) I might be dead which would make it a large and complete waste of time

do you think you had high liklihood of being nightkilled N4 over strong PR claim icon or concensus town read menalque?

Not a high likelihood, but not a zero chance either.

@Ico: do you want me to vote Menalque according to Math's plan?
@Micc: do you want me to vote Menalque according to Math's plan?

If I get a yes on both, I will vote Menalque.

Working through bji ISO to zee what is s v s interaction

[Iconeum]

Im not scum...

[Iconeum]

It was a Fun game to play with you all no matter thé outcome

[Iconeum]

Whoevern is scum i think you did a good job
Menal for'being townread all game
Micc for getting to this point as scum is amazing

[Iconeum]

Oh not think i made up my minds

Caanot get over this feeling of why the three of us are in Luik

The slaxx lynch, if micc is scum, was all town. Hard to gelieve
I also think menal had post to gain from this mulo
Scum micc i think goes with me and math to Endgame

Even tho menal is town meta

[Iconeum]

Can i really vote my townread for most of thr game here

[Iconeum]

i really dont see town!ico playing like this tbh

intent to hammer in like 10 hrs or so

i dont trust myself to like wake up tmrw then just have my first thought be "i should hammer ico now" so hopefully i remember sometime in the evening lol

not bad associates at all uh huh sure jan

Whyyyyy

[Iconeum]

Ill wait with my vote until i can read more

[Iconeum]

Whoevern is scum i think you did a good job
Menal for'being townread all game
Micc for getting to this point as scum is amazing

Don’t forget that me being here as Town is pretty amazing too. The question needs to be answered, why am I here? Menalque brought me here for you to vote. Every time I was to be the lynch he helped move it away.

Please reconsider if the things you’ve Town read him for all game are good reasons. Would they hold up for someone who is not a good friend of yours? I get the sense that you’re feeling like it’s Menalque, but having a hard time with that meaning you’ve been wrong for big patches of the game, and also that you have to lynch a friend.

It took a lot of trust for me to not vote you for consistent mishandling of mechanics through the game. But I got there. My hope is that you can do the same for me. This is the last campaigning I’ll do. If you want more from me please ask.

Yes, you(as either allignment) definitely did great getting here in the circumstances.
As for why, it can go either way. Maybe menal setting you up, might as well be that there was never enough foundation to get your scummy ass lynched.

Trust me, if I had any kind of actual confidence in scum!menalque here, I'd not even hesitate to vote him.
And I think that me not insta-lynching you is at least proving that i'm considering all aspects of the game

[Iconeum]

A few questions that I think are important:

Why are certain players alive in lylo? Why did I get killed over datisi? Did scum Micc think he'd be able to swing menal around with a vote on me? If so, why didn't he elect to take math instead of menal?

If menal scum, that makes more sense.

Why datisi? Probably because scum can work around my power with a ninja or something. Maybe to setup a lynch or me. Or maybe because menal is scum and he knows how he can pull my strings.

I really don't feel like this is the lylo scum!micc would have chosen. And I think it's a very good scenario for scum!menal.

[Iconeum]

Micc i'm gonna be totally honest with you.

It's really just about even in my mind between you and menal. And I cannot for the love of my life get over the evacuation of the chemist lynch by emps on day 1. It was such a scummy vote move. It's really gonna be that to make me vote you over menal at this point.

I know that sucks and that you can't defend that, but I can't ignore the actions of emps even tho you really played well.

[Iconeum]

I also think the bji v menal discussions read more like scum v town then scum v scum

[Iconeum]

VOTE: micc

[Iconeum]

I'm sorry for not getting there, Micc. There's a bunch of reasons why, some of which are blatantly wrong and some that I still think: yeah i'd probably do this again

I really enjoyed playing with you and everyone tho.

[Iconeum]

Let's all blame Datisi for forcing her menal!townread upon us all

[Iconeum]

I would be able to tell you different advice that'd have condemned Menalque though.Occam's razor; which is simpler? That there is an unknown ungated mafia ninja which there is no evidence of who happens to be the last scum alive, or that the innocent result is an actual innocent?The former requires you to invent a role that there's no evidence of existing and which turns the game hilariously scumsided (because, Iconeum investigated Micc multiple times while there was only one scum alive and got the same result, meaning that it would NEED to be a FULL ninja), whereas the latter is by far the simpler, more likely explanation which is stupidly simple.

teach me