Mini Normal 2160 | FIA Group B | Endgame

[Billy Pilgrim]

i haven't read through all of worstys walls but yeah down to elim una, not much more to be said, im more worried about f3 at this point

this is kind of garbage reaction sorry

I was just walking down my apartment block's carpark in the rain thinking "oh IV didn't react to any of my push on una except for saying he was down to vote for una and then tried to set up for f3" lol

I was gonna wait for his rxn to me offering to towncase you but I don't really think I need to atp

Yeah, this makes sense.

[innocentvillager]

actually doesn’t it imply that he knows the game isn’t over with una’s death, if he’s more worried about f3 than, you know, the LYLO that we’re currently in????

yes it does? what’s your point

if worsty is scum we lose anyway

[lilith2013]

and surely you'd want to read everything he wrote about una and decide for yourself which of them is scum?

[innocentvillager]

I don’t need to read all of worstys walls to decide hes town?

[lilith2013]

what made you decide he's town then? it didn't seem like you had decided that before his case on una.

[innocentvillager]

I had mostly decided already and the tone/AtE/casing/effort pushed it over the top. Una is obviously today’s elim

[the worst]

so when I was reading una's iso there were some stray mentions and weird rule of 3 things which made me pause and wonder if Lilith was actually scum and I was just being a big nerd but I kinda think she's just...... not

I'll break it into four brief points because I'm so very tired. joke about whether it will actually be four and counting together.

- sheer effort and solving and shit. as mhmsmith0 famously said, "sort by postcount, become good at werewolf". This isn't a damning clear but like the moment I look at a player who has been everpresent in pushing the good reads and the bad reads and reacting to things and asking the pointed questions and responding to the pointed questions, it's Lilith unquestioningly. She's exhibited the traits that the wiki articles tell you to look for in a town leader. The principal pauses I have in just blanket ruling this as a hard towntell are that like: she's been less on point during the harder gamestates (day three jumps to mind as an example) and I do think a lot of her questions to me came from a place of being utterly perplexed and trying to break through to me before I was ready to town the fuck up, rather than a place of trying to discern my alignment from the tiny breadcrumbs I'd left thru my iso. Still, when I look at the force she applied to D1 and the way she correctly intuited how to play D2 without forcing it and without realising SS was the cop I don't like, feel that it's valid to get caught up on the relatively small % of her iso which *isn't* as towny and which can be explained by frustration and confusion at least as easily as it can be explained by being scum with some indiscernible master plan. D4 was also very important for my read on Lilith but it basically warrants its own point.

- very recently: when rereading, una has some really bad associatives towards Lilith. Like worse than his associatives towards Billy by a decent margin. The "too dumb to travel thing" a am still comfortable writing off as a nai tonal communication breakdown (I haven't heard Una's voice but like the in-my-head-una-voice says that line so jovially). he really sloppily townbins her on D1 for similarly stiff reasons to how he townreads sausage. He has a lot of posts back & forth with her over the game but he's always like directly engaging her - he doesn't talk around their interactions the way he did with zombapoc and has been with IV. When he starts establishing a deepwolf in the core of {tw,Lilith,SS} he basically ignores SS and plays Lilith and I against each other. I can go find the post if needed but at one point he's like "if the duck is town it's making me feel like Lilith's posts aren't as solvey as I thought" and like....ngl I agreed in the heat of the moment because I felt frustrated by the amount of squeeze Lilith was putting on me but it's simultaneously really not partnery, and also a kinda peculiarly negligent read

- fucking day four. I'm still backing that scum would have really struggled in that gamestate: I still think that's the day when una cashed in his towncred and effectively made himself catchable. I have a lot of thoughts about how the scumteam may have conducted themselves in this phase but that's for later. Lilith was the only person who actually heard my suggestion out, gave me the time of day in reevaluating mwnn in good faith, and worked through the read. I don't know what mania led me to believe that mwnn was just high scum equity again but in the heat of that moment I felt like Lilith felt exactly the same thing. Her read trajectory on the mwnn slot in that phase was like, as-if-not-more believable than mine and if after distancing spectacularly her plan of attack was to placate me by pouring absurd amounts of effort into a phoney read on a slot which she's then just turn around and murder along with her scumbuddy (and then correctly distance from him on d5 and have him spectacularly flail while desperately trying to pocket her) I'm probably not gonna vote correctly in f3.

-- secondarily but equally important about d4: when billy and I voted Lilith her immediate reaction was so startled and confused that it hit the point of being emotional. This rings towny for a couple of reasons: firstly, Lilith is a player with a pretty broad set of skills but (from what I can see) also an honour system. I feel like it would be really easy for her to be disappointed by scum AtEing unnecessarily. I think scum!Lilith knows that her *play* is defensible and that she doesn't need to resort to faking emotions to derail the wagon. I think scum!Lilith is probably cluey enough / as is scum!una to take a step back and work out that at the very least, I've been hinting that my vote on her was fake. Her kneejerk reaction to it felt sincere enough that it made me want to drop the rxn test and I don't feel like it was engineered to look any more towny than it did sincere. (vs. e.g. playing along and seeing who went for a shitty CW knowing that she was never actually going to eat a lim there)

- SS' read on her is stuck in my mind like a popcorn kernel gets stuck in your teeth omg. I put a lot of respect into SS' reads and like I tend to reality check myself against him when I'm sitting here screaming into the void. He made a comment pretty late about how he was anxious Lilith was going to make endgame. But I think if he actually scumread her he would have been a lot more likely to like, do something about it? I agree that she's capable of being pretty dangerous as scum. But I do feel like we both separately made the decision to talk around the possibility of her being scum without advancing on actually pushing it or trying to satisfactorily solve her publicly. I feel like I'm not, when push comes to shove, super worried that she's actually scum. gth I feel like SS probably felt similarly.


I think like I could be fallible on any one of underestimating her scumrange, underestimating her ability to play off associatives with Una, overestimating the importance of the honour code/AtE thing, or just not correctly sheeping Mr. Smart. but I don't feel like I'm fallible on all four simultaneously and candidly I think Billy and IV make sense as scum quite a bit before Lilith does independently of the fact I townbinned her earlier in the phase.

[the worst]

pls don't acknowledge honour code thing midgame Lilith because it's kinda angleshooty meta and I'm worried it like might brush against trust tell territory

if I'm wrong I'm not like shocked or upset at all, just very very impressed

[lilith2013]

I will pretend that part doesn’t exist

[lilith2013]

I had mostly decided already and the tone/AtE/casing/effort pushed it over the top. Una is obviously today’s elim

do you think una is scum though? and why?

[lilith2013]

joke about whether it will actually be four and counting together.

I noticed this earlier and appreciate you

[innocentvillager]

so what you’re saying is billy is the last scum

pedit: una is scum because of the ridiculous hammer and it seems like worsty agrees, who is obvtown, and if he’s obvtown una is scum. I feel like this is one of the most obvious reads ever and if we’re wrong then I will quit this site like for another 4 years

[innocentvillager]

yeah I buy it. billy is scum I guess. this is gonna suck

[the worst]

holistically

I have thoughts about this but I'll let others talk first.

[lilith2013]

oh uh

was I supposed to prepare thoughts

[the worst]

always. originally I was like "hell yeah we should talk around the partner" then I realised that's for chumps and we should probably reach a loose consensus today

[the worst]

actually doesn’t it imply that he knows the game isn’t over with una’s death, if he’s more worried about f3 than, you know, the LYLO that we’re currently in????

yes it does? what’s your point

if worsty is scum we lose anyway

could you quote or describe the point in my posts where you realised I'm town and una is scum and the world is saved

[lilith2013]

again my read on billy since D1 has just been a big fat question mark in my brain. these posts seemed like extra-posturing to me though, like maybe he really felt like he had to pile on una here.

the game isn't over
I'm finally right
hoooooly fuck

Well, you are sort of clearly scum so the game shouldn't be over yet anyway. And I also see that you have racked some more posts up so maybe I should take some time to post as well, although I feel like it should be better for town to have the other three players sort it out.
If I'm being "fair" and take myself out of the equation for a second - one of us is going to be talking shit anyway, and therefore already might be "WIFOMing stuff" in preparation for tomorrow.
So if Billy/lilith/IV are able to talk things through amongst themselves, I feel like we have a better shot at getting not only todays lynch in order, but also the last one we need for tomorrow.

Ok this is scummy. You don't wanna participate in the solve?

The only other option might be just lynching MWNN - I really dislike their "willingness to be lynched" here.
That would also reveal the "IC" within N_M if that's actually a thing, meaning that I'd have a simple target for my last shot and you'd probably find ME dead tomorrow..but at least you'd have an IC!
...who doesn't...do anything... -_-

Ducky amd IV, is this what you're referring to with respect to his hammer while still scumreading you? Because I at least saw this benefit from flipping MWNN.

If you think I'm scum over some pseudo lurker whose entire game has been 1) fakeclaiming rolestopper well, 2) deathtunnelling some shitty solve without stopping to reevaluate or attempting to stop any miselims (WHICH HE WOULD THINK ARE MISELIMS IF HE BELIEVED HIS SOLVE) you need to go back to the newbie queue or town of salem

Now this is just rude and blatant Ate..

Oh shit, this feels like him pocketing me.

[innocentvillager]

yeah the world isn’t exactly saved yet. I feel like I’m going to be the elim in f3 and I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to stop it. I wish I had your charisma and ability to just shit out decent reasoning and logic

I’m not sure on the “exact spot” because I’ve been in catch up mode so read stuff in a weird order. ive townread you for a long time with on and off paranoia and only townread una really on the mechanics and glossed over most of his walls. Once that’s gone the main thing that stuck out was his hammer and shouting solve of us. The start of your AtE train was incredibly towny, I do believe you blew your scumrange and your desperation in your posts. Sorry if you don’t like me townreading you for emotions, you’re doing the same thing with Lilith so, I guess not actually sorry. You have like a page of walls that were reasonably convincing for the first ones I read

[lilith2013]

I don't actually have a reaction to 5424. like i'm just like, meh

[the worst]

i actually thought 5372 felt kinda uninformed - i'm not sure if scum!billy who realises he needs to lolbus una turns that question back on IV and i given he was still a fair bit back in his solve
conversely if he hasn't realised he needs to lolbus una yet then i'm not really sure why scum!billy makes #5358 or #5382 when he's probably more likely waiting to see how una/tw shakes down

[the worst]

I don't actually have a reaction to 5424. like i'm just like, meh

it's actually about how i would tier the smokiness of the guns; i think it makes sense from a perspective that was townreading una and then went "oh ah OH OK

OH

" and like....at a first glance, i actually think billy read my posts.

[the worst]

billy can you give your thoughts on the mwnn hammer.

You referring to when Una hammered?

posts like this feel closer to seeking to understand what's going on, than to pushing an agenda.

compare for example to iv's opening:

I'm a bit sad to hear that this is what MWNN feels..
And if this is AtE, Ducky was once more jumping off the lynch..

VOTE: MWNN - is this the hammer?

??? “BuDucky-IV” is your only read this game and you decided to compromise here with days left to go??

yeah I think I still hate this hammer

can people give their opinions on it.

the hammer is like, contextually mind blowingly bad form but IV feels strangely feathersoft about pushing it?

billy can you give your thoughts on the mwnn hammer.

the only thing he fixates on is the hammer, when he tries to talk about something else this useless post falls out:

@lilith I know you're busy but you don't have to ~effort for now. If you could just give brief thoughts that would be helpful, if not no worries obviously RL is more important

and when i ask if he's ready to vote una he seems like...floored?

@lilith I know you're busy but you don't have to ~effort for now. If you could just give brief thoughts that would be helpful, if not no worries obviously RL is more important

what the hell is this post?
how close to voting Una are you, IV?

Um I'm not gonna vote right now...? What's your point

i think billy was slow to the una party but i *do* feel like he's seeking to understand and representing why he had incorrectly townread una. what the hell even is IV's read trajectory on una this phase? "una scumhammered, let's talk about the scumhammer, np tyt lilith, why would i vote una lol?, ah yeah worsty is town and una is scum"

[lilith2013]

if we're talking lolbus equity, iv is it for sure. I'm rereading this day phase to see if there's a possibility that billy/una team thought they could turn it around and that being a potential explanation for no lolbus!billy

[the worst]

that works for me - i also want to reread their interactions on d1 sometime when my batteries are a bit more recharged bc when i was reading una's iso his trajectory on billy felt super slimy but like, i'm a bit busy and worn out today