Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Reformed Toxic Player]

@rtp, i am correct to assume that you're getting to my 205, right? also interested in hearing why harumi is town.

ur whole energy is complacent - its not just 1 post its the way u present urself.

i cant just quote 1 post - its the whole collection of them that screams it to me.

[Datisi]

ok, if it's the whole collection that is *screaming* that to you then i'm sure you can actually explain it yeah?

[Andresvmb]

I think this Duchess v. Green Crayons fight has the potential to be SvT, but I’m not entirely sure. I’ll explain.

There does not appear to have been any attempt at any time from either player to de-escalate. Now there’s a lot of flinging of words like “mischaracterization” and “lies”, but frankly if I was sitting on either player’s shoes, I would be thinking that maybe the other person is being overly paranoid and tried to probe them some more, or simply focus elsewhere. Duchess tried this to some extent. Green Crayons doesn’t seem to have done it at all. And then multiple votes have piled on Duchess. Do I really believe this is a coincidence of some sort? No, I don’t.

I’ll just put my vote on what I’m seeing as the Scummiest vote on that wagon.

VOTE: Elements

[Andresvmb]

Because they haven't posted

A few players here have played with me actually - I’m a bit of a slow starter, generally speaking.

not this slow tho

Also, I have been reading how you go about probing, and I think it’s quite likely that we will clash. That’s okay though - I don’t mind aggressive players actually, but I can’t say that I am a big fan of overly confident pronouncements. It tends to lead to tunnels from players that think are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and when they’re wrong, it just doesn’t seem to work out well for the Town.

[Andresvmb]

pedit: hi andres!!

Hey Datisi! I’m glad to come across you in another game actually. I can’t say I have any real idea what your alignment is, but I’m hoping for Town since I felt that your paranoia lead to decent places last time.

[Andresvmb]

Actually I should be fair - Green Crayons began probing other players on page 11 I think. I just - I don’t know. I think there’s definitely the potential for 1 Scum amongst {Green Crayons, Duchess}, but I’m just a bit surprised that it escalated so quickly, and that both players became so stubborn about it. I don’t have any experience with either, so I’m not really sure what it means.

[Datisi]

but I’m hoping for Town since I felt that your paranoia lead to decent places last time.

...are you sure we're thinking of the same game?

[Andresvmb]

but I’m hoping for Town since I felt that your paranoia lead to decent places last time.

...are you sure we're thinking of the same game?

You still were on the right side of the Mason splitting right? And didn’t we ultimately win that game anyway?

[Andresvmb]

Or no, you’re right, I might be thinking of a different game. But! I do think I remember your gameplay decently well, and thinking that you were solid. Despite you carrying this paranoia about my slot for a long time.

[Andresvmb]

No, I was right. Here it is: viewtopic.php?p=12024832#p12024832.

[Datisi]

yeah, i was on the right side of the split... and that was the only scum i was right on at the time i died.

y'all did manage to win it in lylo. kinda sad i wasn't reading it at the time it happened.

pedit: i don't think we played together in any other games, i was just making a joke about my play there. sorry about the shittunnel lol

[VP Baltar]

who still fos's harumi here?

Me

I think they hard towntold on top of what ive noticed with my initial pings of them with the tell i had mentioned - what makes you scumread them still?

Scum read is a strong term. I just don't find them super town. The reads list was meh and that selected ISOing of Italiano felt opportunistic to me.

If there is some super town tell you see, point it out. Maybe I'm missing it

[Green Crayons]

If RTP is going to reveal his town tell for Harumi, can he also explain his thinking behind revealing the existence of a Top Secret reason to think she was town (which would seem to discourage additional votes on Harumi), but not revealing what that reason was because he wanted to see if the wagon would build:

theres a reason i think pearl fey is town but i wanna wait to reveal it to see if that wagon builds cuz i wanna see game state before i out it cuz i think its relatively strong of a reason to townread them.

[Lunar Martian]

hey lunar.

was wondering if you had anymore like concrete thoughts and reasoning for your reads?

Yeah, I do.

[VP Baltar]

Spoiler:

Italiano. Please point to exactly where I have defended you.

Post 98 could be viewed as you trying to defend me fmpov or at the very least interfering with a player trying to sort a slot, which is just as bad. The same can be said for 138 since it piggybacked from 98. Then 141, then in 143 you said

“Italiano himself later explained there is no correlation in post 108

which to me read like you were defending me again, using my posts to help your argument. You mentioned me again in 166, again to help solidify your argument. Then again in 167 to justify your push onto Green. For someone not defending someone it sure seems like you are.

I'm surprised that even from your point of view

you are clinging to GC's false characterization of my push as a defense.

Why would you be surprised at someone else’s point of view? The (bolded) here is just wrong and not at all what I’m doing.

Your vantage point should make it abundantly clear that I have done absolutely nothing to defend your words or justify your actions.

See above.

So I'm curious about precisely where you are getting the feeling that I am stepping up to bat for you rather than attacking a scumread.

See above.

This early in the game, I know nothing. Nobody knows anything, except for scum.

I don’t know, you seemed pretty confident in your read, you even said so at the end of this post.

So if X looks to be setting up a scumpush against Y, I don't think for a damn second about what my read of Y is, because I have no reason to be so sure of anything that I would let those first impressions and assumptions of Y dictate my assessment of situation X.

My question is if I was a FoS, why would you be against a scum push onto me. Green would have been bussing me from your perspective, so what would it matter? For me it seems like you would’ve only done what you did if I was a townlean, otherwise you would have called out the theatre, (which would’ve been weak), but at least it’d be consistent.

I gotta say I'm not at all comfortable being in the middle of this Duchess/Green Crayons thing, lol. Like yikes, I don't like what I say to be a basis to read someone else off when it wasn't my intention to do so. If this is theatre please choose something else to fight over and leave me out of it and if you're town then just drop it, it's not that serious.

Can you elaborate on how exactly it makes you uncomfortable and why?
Why is it either theatre or town vs town?

I’ve explained why it makes me feel uncomfortable both in 169 and this post. And the thought crossed my mind that it was theatre because I didn’t feel like it was a real argument and had no real footing, but then I thought that maybe the communication is just that bad between you too, either way I wanted both of you to stop talking about it. And since it involved me I had the audacity to say so.

I already said I didn't have an issue with Green's questioning.

So what? I'm not pushing GC for your benefit and I don't need your blessings or permission.

Well as I said since it involves me so I have the right to nip it in the bud.

Is there a reason you are so adamant about this?

This is a very strange question. I'm pushing a scumread, which is what you do in the game of mafia. I'll be either right or wrong in the end, but for now I'm quite confident.

Im asking under the mindset that you are defending me and I’m saying you’re push is not a good one because it’s being pushed under a false pretense.

This entire interaction is weird. I spent a good amount of time just trying to understand what is being said. It feels very in the weeds, and that doesn't necessarily feel pro-town. The problem is all three are kind of pushing weedy stuff at points, so I have no fucking clue who could be scum if there is scum.

[Harumi Ayasato]

hey lunar.

was wondering if you had anymore like concrete thoughts and reasoning for your reads?

Yeah, I do.

You're very funny.

[VP Baltar]

Lunar, I'm not sure Datisi is scum here. You want to join me on the dunnstral wagon?

I'm fairly sure he is lurking scum. Dunn is super smart, and knows how to strategic lurk (source: the last time we were scum together). I almost pushed this earlier, but felt like it would have been unfair too early in the game, so I gave him a chance to give me a reads list/impressions of the game.

He didn't do that. He also has conveniently stayed out of really any point of action in this game. Reeks of lurking scum.

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

[Andresvmb]

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

Hey VPB. I’ll ISO there and let you know. I’ll say though that as I was reading I got a decently okay vibe from them. Like I put them as a Town Lean and moved on.

[Andresvmb]

What I wrote in my notes actually was openness about one’s Scum game (like in 108) come from really confident players or just Town who is happy to speak about it because they’re not Scum, and I had it as more likely to be the latter. For what it’s worth.

[VP Baltar]

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

Hey VPB. I’ll ISO there and let you know. I’ll say though that as I was reading I got a decently okay vibe from them. Like I put them as a Town Lean and moved on.

I'm mostly thinking how IVD is interacting with the GC/Duchess fight.

Maybe if you see IVD as town, that sways your thoughts on who is scum there?

[Andresvmb]

I did also think though that Duchess in 201 had a point, in that Italiano and Green Crayons could be aligned, with Duchess having hit a nerve of some sort. However, I didn’t think that Duchess’ confidence was entirely warranted.

So if you’re asking me what I think on a stand-alone basis, I thought Italiano was okay. Taking a side on the more meaningful spat D1 isn’t necessarily bad. If there’s anything that I would scrutinize later in the game is that little nugget I believe you highlighted about having some faith in Elements’ gut reads. Just something to watch out for.

[Andresvmb]

Maybe if you see IVD as town, that sways your thoughts on who is scum there?

I think I’ve made it crystal clear in other games that I tend to discard my early Scum Reads because they’re certainly not better than random. So I am not making any definitive statements about IVD / Green Crayons / Duchess right now. I just don’t know if it’s SvT or TvT. But you know what? Votes did pile onto one side of the argument. I am firmly convinced that Scum tend to avoid bussing so early in the game (or if they do, it’s because they can’t avoid a wagon out of fear of being exposed). So, what that tells me is that Duchess is more likely than random of being Town. And that perhaps one of those voters isn’t pure.

[Andresvmb]

And why am I discarding it being SvS? Precisely because votes piled on. So if it ends up being Scum theater and some good old fashioned distancing, I’ll be surprised. I thought the escalation wasn’t completely manufactured, but I could be wrong. Still a bit early to tell.

[VP Baltar]

Andres wins my first solid town read of the game.

I hope you are shamed, Datisi.

[Lunar Martian]

Lunar, I'm not sure Datisi is scum here. You want to join me on the dunnstral wagon?

I'm fairly sure he is lurking scum. Dunn is super smart, and knows how to strategic lurk (source: the last time we were scum together). I almost pushed this earlier, but felt like it would have been unfair too early in the game, so I gave him a chance to give me a reads list/impressions of the game.

He didn't do that. He also has conveniently stayed out of really any point of action in this game. Reeks of lurking scum.

@andres - what are your thoughts on IVD?

VOTE: Dunnstral

What made you change your mind on Datisi? I think you are probably just being cautious, but the way you phrased the quoted post sounds a bit awkward and it pinged me. Still think you're Town, especially because you are so confident in saying Andres is Town (I had the same reaction to that post string).