Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Andresvmb]

i dunno if he's plain old trying to counterwagon or if he's trying to buddy up to you by encouraging your pet wagon but like

Maybe this needs to be repeated - this isn’t a pet wagon. I have two players I’m willing to land on today for an execution based on what I’ve read this game. And they are VPB and maxwell. VPB is for sure making bad arguments against me. They have been spectacularly dismissive and sarcastic about my perspective, have completely failed to try and empathize, and seem to think that every single player that has pushed them is coming from a place of bad faith. Even when they’ve detailed their cases with a lot of examples, and have otherwise demonstrated a Towny mindset. RTP did it, and changed their mind. Elements did it, and also changed their mind. RLotus did it, and softened their stance. Italiano did it too! And they were ridiculed for it. And now I have done it. You should consider the possibility that it’s just a hilarious blind spot for you and you’re deeply pocketed.

If you scrutinize Harumi’s pushes from D1, they’re actually really horrible.

[Andresvmb]

VPB could be Town, yes. But what I find fascinating is that even after so many players have expressed reservations about VPB and various aspects of their play, VPB still thinks it’s preposterous that anybody would push them. So, everybody is just an idiot then?

[DrippingGoofball]

VOTE: VPB

[Datisi]

err, i used "pet" there to mean "a wagon that you're pretty much the main/only pusher of". if that's not what that word means there, then my bad.

also while we're talking, i did see that you linked lotus' case on baltar from day one, and come on. that case was bad, i talked about it wayback when.

god i am not emotinally ready to talk about being pocketed ahaha

and like
i remember harumi being my first scumping this game but frankly it was so long ago

pedit: hi dgb why are you voting baltar

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be here on and off for a bit. I know I have been sort of scummy this game, so that makes it difficult to tell whether Datisi is opportunistic scum or aggro town. I think I will lightly meta him to see what I can find. Or if anyone has experience with Datisi, does he normally go this aggressively as town?

Datisi can be very passionate about their stances, yes. As Town. I can still vividly remember fighting them about a read they were 100% spot on about the first time we played (Iconeum). It ended up being key to solving the game.

[Andresvmb]

also while we're talking, i did see that you linked lotus' case on baltar from day one, and come on. that case was bad, i talked about it wayback when.

I don’t believe everyone was just seeing ghosts. Elements made very similarly sounding arguments against VPB only to backtrack. And if you ISO Italiano, they ALSO said that they felt VPB was pushing them in bad faith (towards the beginning of the day). As did RLotus. And I feel the same way. And you’ll recall, I called RLotus’ positioning towards VPB as bad, and a reason for my SR there! But if you re-read with an open mind, you might find that RLotus wasn’t completely off base.

[Andresvmb]

I will grant you - there’s Scum on one side of that argument. So what if some of the players are part of the Scum Team, and are making reasonably sounding arguments against a player that just lashes out like VPB has in response to pressure? But then why did almost all of them backtrack? That’s quite astounding to me.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE: VPB
I'm going to go back on this vote because VPB has been trying way too hard to be scum here. At least I won't be considering him today.

YOU AREN’T MAKING ANY SENSE.

How does one try very hard to be Scum exactly?

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE: VPB
I'm going to go back on this vote because VPB has been trying way too hard to be scum here. At least I won't be considering him today.

YOU AREN’T MAKING ANY SENSE.

How does one try very hard to be Scum exactly?

I’m so frustrated with you I didn’t read this carefully. You’re saying VPB is demonstrating too much effort for them to actually be Scum. Okay but, your initial reads where that the top posters in {VPB, Datisi, Me} were Scum. So which is it?

[VP Baltar]

VPB is for sure making bad arguments against me. They have been spectacularly dismissive and sarcastic about my perspective, have completely failed to try and empathize, and seem to think that every single player that has pushed them is coming from a place of bad faith.

First, I'm not making bad arguments against you. I've pointed out legitimate flaws in the things you've said and your general approach to this day. Everytime you've been forced to acknowledge that, you move the goal posts.

Second, every person you've listed has indeed argued in bad faith against me. I replied in very specific detail, for example, to the giant shit stream Lotus posted. I specifically showed how what he was trying to argue was incorrect and out of context. I replied in very specific detail to Elements and Duchess.

I literally spent hours rereading the crap duchess was trying to shade me on because it was so incoherent.

So don't come in here and say I'm not "empathizing" with you. I don't own you empathy. I don't owe you a thing. You're repeating bad talking points I've already disproven with other players. You don't get to come in and say "VPB is shady" and act like I should take that seriously.

If I had you as a locktown read, I'd definitely take your points seriously and try to explain you out of it. But I don't have you up there. You aren't seeing my play this game, which has been completely transparent, for what it is. So why do you think I owe you seriousness and respect? Because you weren't on italiano and instead left a vote on a go nowhere wagon?

[Andresvmb]

i don't know. maybe they're among the lurkers, it's hard to tell with so many inactives.

I’ve been thinking about this. Who do we have as lurkers this game? I’m guessing Dunn, Duchess/Cookie Monster, and Elements/DGB, right? To end D1, Elements was voting RLotus, Duchess had a vote that had been sitting on VPB for a long time (and they were getting replaced), and Dunn was voting midwaybear. It could very well be that midwaybear is Scum with two of those, and they are the only Scum on the Italiano wagon. That’s not something I’m willing to rule out. But I have already mentioned that I think Cookie Monster is Town and why for instance. Are we looking at a {Dunn, midwaybear, DGB} Scum Team? Possibly? It seems a bit far fetched no?

[VP Baltar]

Also, I literally hear some version of this "VPB shady" argument everytime I'm town. It's maddening and easy to deploy as scum. You may as well say "gut". It has the same value and is about as defendable.

[Andresvmb]

First, I'm not making bad arguments against you. I've pointed out legitimate flaws in the things you've said and your general approach to this day. Everytime you've been forced to acknowledge that, you move the goal posts.

Nah, they’re bad arguments. I haven’t moved the goal posts. Instead, I’ve directly addressed your points. You just keep dismissing my answers. And frankly, they’re terrible reasons to doubt my alignment anyway. If you’re going to argue that not everything I’ve done is completely consistent, then you might as well look in the mirror first.

[Andresvmb]

Second, every person you've listed has indeed argued in bad faith against me. I replied in very specific detail, for example, to the giant shit stream Lotus posted. I specifically showed how what he was trying to argue was incorrect and out of context. I replied in very specific detail to Elements and Duchess.

Okay we might have a difference of opinion as to what it means to argue in bad faith. It is physically impossible for every player that has expressed a particular view of the things you’ve done to be Scum. So in my mind, not everybody is just trying to bury you, or make intentionally malicious arguments against you. I know I’m not. That’s what I think of when I think of arguing in bad faith. Being wrong is not the same as being malicious. You would do well to remember that.

[Andresvmb]

You don't get to come in and say "VPB is shady" and act like I should take that seriously.

I would appeal to the rest of the players. Is this what I’ve done? Have I just said VPB shady, should execute?

[Andresvmb]

So why do you think I owe you seriousness and respect? Because you weren't on italiano and instead left a vote on a go nowhere wagon?

And for the record, I haven’t asked for your respect. Feel free to ignore or dismiss me all you want.

[Andresvmb]

Alright you know what. Why do I even care so much.

VOTE: midwaybear

They’ve claimed VT. If this is wrong, then we’re not hitting a PR at the very least.

[Andresvmb]

If this flips Scum then I’ll happily just shut up and vote for whatever Datisi wants to do.

[VP Baltar]

You're literally telling Datisi to go look at debates I already won through facts with Elements/Duchess/Lotus and saying "but imagine if vpb DIDNT dismantle those points!"

Why do you think those players had to back off? Because they were right? No, it's because they were wrong and that was abundantly clear in thread. You saying "but what if" doesn't change that. You saying I'm in bad faith doesn't make it so. It's not for you to decide.

I return again to the point I made before. You claimed I was manipulating people, but the people allegedly manipulated don't believe it. So now you're trying to revive bad arguments from the past. That's what I mean by moving the goal posts, and that's why I'm done arguing in good faith with you about this.

Pedit: I have never made a hard push on elements or duchess as scum. I can certainly think actions are scummy and bad cases are scummy without reaching a hard conclusion those people have to be scum. Hell, I don't even have a hard conclusion about you. But if you think I'm going to town read you for this case you're trying to make, you're nuts.

[Andresvmb]

I return again to the point I made before. You claimed I was manipulating people, but the people allegedly manipulated don't believe it. So now you're trying to revive bad arguments from the past. That's what I mean by moving the goal posts, and that's why I'm done arguing in good faith with you about this.

@RLotus can you comment on this? Do you not believe still any of the points you made earlier?

[midwaybear]

Okay but, your initial reads where that the top posters in {VPB, Datisi, Me} were Scum. So which is it?

I mean, you voted me not super long after (about 200 posts) after I finished the off wagon analysis part. What made you reconsider that analysis?

Response to both: I did suspect VPB for posting a lot, but I think his solving outweighs that.

[Andresvmb]

Pedit: I have never made a hard push on elements or duchess as scum. I can certainly think actions are scummy and bad cases are scummy without reaching a hard conclusion those people have to be scum. Hell, I don't even have a hard conclusion about you. But if you think I'm going to town read you for this case you're trying to make, you're nuts.

Yeah you haven’t made any hard pushes outside of Dunn which you are now also backing from. Not sure why that would be a positive.

[VP Baltar]

Pedit: I have never made a hard push on elements or duchess as scum. I can certainly think actions are scummy and bad cases are scummy without reaching a hard conclusion those people have to be scum. Hell, I don't even have a hard conclusion about you. But if you think I'm going to town read you for this case you're trying to make, you're nuts.

Yeah you haven’t made any hard pushes outside of Dunn which you are now also backing from. Not sure why that would be a positive.

That's not true. I actually pushed pretty hard on lotus because his case was very bad from my perspective. Keep cherry picking.

[Andresvmb]

Pedit: I have never made a hard push on elements or duchess as scum. I can certainly think actions are scummy and bad cases are scummy without reaching a hard conclusion those people have to be scum. Hell, I don't even have a hard conclusion about you. But if you think I'm going to town read you for this case you're trying to make, you're nuts.

Yeah you haven’t made any hard pushes outside of Dunn which you are now also backing from. Not sure why that would be a positive.

That's not true. I actually pushed pretty hard on lotus because his case was very bad from my perspective. Keep cherry picking.

And now you’re calling them hardTown. So clearly arguing against you is not a reason to be entirely dismissed.

[Andresvmb]

Don’t worry you don’t have to fight me anymore I’m voting midway. I’m effectively conceding.