Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Andresvmb]

(ii) oh wow you haven't gotten a miselim through (presuming youre scum)? oh sad for you being able to say that you haven't had a preferred miselim.

And how could you know this? Like I said, the players I’ve most aggressively attacked towards the end of D1 and D2 are all still alive. Yeah obviously you’re going to say this dumb shit about yourself, but you couldn’t argue this without knowing for sure until one of my preferred executions actually goes through.

[Green Crayons]

Leveling it against me doesn’t make sense unless you can also explain why I wanted those particular players still alive when I so obviously was openly hostile against the players pushing them.

defending a town is its own benefit to scum for a couple of reasons

"why I wanted those particular players still alive when I so obviously was openly hostile against the players pushing them" i don't understand what you're saying here

[Andresvmb]

This is something scum would do. It's TMI and you get town cred as scum. You calling it out as why I should read you as town is scummy too.

This is just lazy.

Now everything is TMI?

What an easy way of minimizing the large volume of posts I’ve made. Why don’t you actually go look and show that I’m clearly arguing from a point of view of being informed instead of reducing all of my contributions to knowing what’s correct so I can brag about it now?

No? i never said that. holy fuck, you are manipulative.

And how am I being manipulative. You basically said that everything I’ve been right about this game so far has been because of TMI. It’s literally the heart of your argument.

[DrippingGoofball]

VOTE: GreenCrayons

[Green Crayons]

(ii) oh wow you haven't gotten a miselim through (presuming youre scum)? oh sad for you being able to say that you haven't had a preferred miselim.

And how could you know this? Like I said, the players I’ve most aggressively attacked towards the end of D1 and D2 are all still alive. Yeah obviously you’re going to say this dumb shit about yourself, but you couldn’t argue this without knowing for sure until one of my preferred executions actually goes through.

i literally fucking said presuming you're scum. this is a game of percentages. no i don't know if the poeple you've pushed are town or scum.

you not pushing a successful mis-elim helps you as scum if you are scum.

and I didn't say this is a reason to suspect you. but it certianly is when you try to make it a point about why i shouldn't suspect you as if it's some badge of towniness

[Andresvmb]

and I didn't say this is a reason to suspect you. but it certianly is when you try to make it a point about why i shouldn't suspect you as if it's some badge of towniness

Except you’re using a crappy argument to suspect me. Oh you could just know that all those players were Town and decided to defend them all. But why? So that the wagon shifts onto potentially one of my Scummates? I don’t have to be loud and obnoxious defending every single Town that’s been flipped then. Like I said, I could just sit back and let the executions happen without me. And why NK RTP? They would have easily helped me execute you the next day. Or you think they would have turned on me before voting you? Because I really don’t think so.

[Green Crayons]

This is something scum would do. It's TMI and you get town cred as scum. You calling it out as why I should read you as town is scummy too.

This is just lazy.

Now everything is TMI?

What an easy way of minimizing the large volume of posts I’ve made. Why don’t you actually go look and show that I’m clearly arguing from a point of view of being informed instead of reducing all of my contributions to knowing what’s correct so I can brag about it now?

No? i never said that. holy fuck, you are manipulative.

And how am I being manipulative. You basically said that everything I’ve been right about this game so far has been because of TMI. It’s literally the heart of your argument.

we were talking about how you defended the 3 players who were mis-elim as potential TMI

if you think that is me saying "everything is TMI" you are purposefully misrepresenting me (manipulative) or just an illogical person

[Green Crayons]

and I didn't say this is a reason to suspect you. but it certianly is when you try to make it a point about why i shouldn't suspect you as if it's some badge of towniness

Except you’re using a crappy argument to suspect me.

Oh you could just know that all those players were Town and decided to defend them all. But why? So that the wagon shifts onto potentially one of my Scummates? I don’t have to be loud and obnoxious defending every single Town that’s been flipped then. Like I said, I could just sit back and let the executions happen without me. And why NK RTP? They would have easily helped me execute you the next day. Or you think they would have turned on me before voting you? Because I really don’t think so.

no i'm not

you literally used it as a defense first as a reason why you're town

and im saying its not a defense to show tha tyou're town

[Green Crayons]

the fact that you used it as a defense to you being town IS ITSELF suspicious; not the underlying conduct

[Andresvmb]

This is something scum would do. It's TMI and you get town cred as scum. You calling it out as why I should read you as town is scummy too.

This is just lazy.

Now everything is TMI?

What an easy way of minimizing the large volume of posts I’ve made. Why don’t you actually go look and show that I’m clearly arguing from a point of view of being informed instead of reducing all of my contributions to knowing what’s correct so I can brag about it now?

No? i never said that. holy fuck, you are manipulative.

And how am I being manipulative. You basically said that everything I’ve been right about this game so far has been because of TMI. It’s literally the heart of your argument.

we were talking about how you defended the 3 players who were mis-elim as potential TMI

if you think that is me saying "everything is TMI" you are purposefully misrepresenting me (manipulative) or just an illogical person

Except you’re dismissing everything that’s actually verifiable as TMI. So you are doing this. I can’t point to anything else because everyone else is still in the game. So what else can I point to?

[Andresvmb]

and I didn't say this is a reason to suspect you. but it certianly is when you try to make it a point about why i shouldn't suspect you as if it's some badge of towniness

Except you’re using a crappy argument to suspect me.

Oh you could just know that all those players were Town and decided to defend them all. But why? So that the wagon shifts onto potentially one of my Scummates? I don’t have to be loud and obnoxious defending every single Town that’s been flipped then. Like I said, I could just sit back and let the executions happen without me. And why NK RTP? They would have easily helped me execute you the next day. Or you think they would have turned on me before voting you? Because I really don’t think so.

no i'm not

you literally used it as a defense first as a reason why you're town

and im saying its not a defense to show tha tyou're town

The fundamental problem you have and it’s my biggest weapon is that I am Town. So I’m just trying to figure out how far you’re willing to go to push an awful mis-execution through.

[Green Crayons]

If you don’t understand the difference between me saying that your defense of being town bc you defended the mis-elim town is NAI bc it’s something scum would do(what I did say), as opposed to me saying that you are scum bc you did it (what you are saying I said), then I don’t know why we are even speaking because you are refusing to listen

[Andresvmb]

If you don’t understand the difference between me saying that your defense of being town bc you defended the mis-elim town is NAI bc it’s something scum would do(what I did say), as opposed to me saying that you are scum bc you did it (what you are saying I said), then I don’t know why we are even speaking because you are refusing to listen

How is it NAI though? So all of the actual points in my favor are NAI because why? Because any reasonable person would consider them when thinking about my alignment? You can’t dismiss all of the potential good I could have done in the game as NAI and leave everything else as your base for arguing because nobody in the game knows anything else for certain. So that’s bullshit.

[Andresvmb]

And you still have me as your top Scum and the person you want to execute. So if none of these points are actually why you think I’m Scum, then why is it?

[Datisi]

if you don't understand how a push against a town is a negative point that i consider as part of the totality of evaluating you, i don't know what to tell you. i don't know if your intentions were pure. just because i didn't think your points were "malicious" (your word that you've chosen for this convo repeatedly, scum don't need to be malicious btw) doesn't mean that they couldn't come from scum

there's 2 types of players on a town yeet - misguided town who didn't know what they were doing, and shitpushing scum who very well knew what they were doing. right, ok. when i ask "do you think my points were malicious" i'm asking whether you think i fall in the latter rather than the former category. if you're town, you obviously agreed midway was scum or else you wouldn't have voted him. and i ask you if you think i was malicious and you say "no", then i take that to mean i wasn't shitpushing midway, i.e. i was genuine in my view of him. so when you come *from that claim* and say "but btw it still sunk my view on you" do you see why i think you might be pulling shit out of you ass?

this is such a simplified view of scum play that it's parody

lol sorry?

like, i'm still town reading you (I've said this, right?) but you being defensive about me having concerns that you were a strong push on a green flip--which is an obvious "whoa that's a thing I should consider" moment--is really thin skinned. what are you worried about?

don't think you did, 2899 doesn't sound like a townread to me. and i'm gonna be defensive because you're apparently sinking me without proper reasoning. you thought midway was scum, you said my points weren't shitpushing.

i guess i didn't explicitly say "i'm still reading you town." but my agreement in the neighborhood that i don't think your push on midway was "malicious" but me still voicing some concern with the ultimate push i think can be deduced that I'm still reading you as town but just not as strongly before

"hurr durr you were on town elim" is level zero.

Thank you for defending me against Andres' and Baltar's fake reasoning.

so what exactly are you ~considering~ then? also did you read the lotus case?

are you serious?

- ok. my problem is that you said you didn't think the push is malicious (i.e. coming from scum) but you are still having problems with it for ??? reasons

- that's not their only reasoning, don't drag me into this like that.

- yes. yes i'm serious. if you don't think the push is malicious then there's no reason to suspect me over it. yet you're *anyway* saying that you suspect em over it because again, "midway flipped town". so what the fuck are you considering then?

[Andresvmb]

Green Crayons has a lot of votes on Town actually. Cookie Monster, obviously midwaybear.

and RTP. three votes on folks who ended up town. what's your success rate so far?

Better than yours.

you've voted 2 players who flipped town, 1 player i know is town (me), and 1 player who is obvtown (Lotus)

so we're basically the same and this is a fake metric

This btw is so obnoxious. It’s such a useless way of looking at the game. My metric wasn’t votes down for Town = Scum. It’s that you ACTUALLY argued against Italiano, you agreed about midway without making yourself super clear, you dismissed Cookie Monster’s claim, and got into a protracted argument with Duchess D1 who you consistently suspected until they replaced out of the game, on top of putting votes down on all those players (even if you didn’t necessarily end up on all of them towards the end of the day). I certainly am not comparable to you this game when it comes to bad arguments.

[Green Crayons]

And you still have me as your top Scum and the person you want to execute. So if none of these points are actually why you think I’m Scum, then why is it?

Asking me repeatedly to quote myself is exhausting. I’ve already told you my suspicions were voiced in this thread literally from IRL yesterday. You are exhausting and you wearing people down by overwhelming them with words is scum tactic. I haven’t come down on who I want to vote yet and when I put my vote down I’ll lay out the reasons

[Green Crayons]

If you don’t understand the difference between me saying that your defense of being town bc you defended the mis-elim town is NAI bc it’s something scum would do(what I did say), as opposed to me saying that you are scum bc you did it (what you are saying I said), then I don’t know why we are even speaking because you are refusing to listen

How is it NAI though? So all of the actual points in my favor are NAI because why? Because any reasonable person would consider them when thinking about my alignment? You can’t dismiss all of the potential good I could have done in the game as NAI and leave everything else as your base for arguing because nobody in the game knows anything else for certain. So that’s bullshit.

It’s NAI bc it can come from either alignment.


I don’t understand how the rest of your post relates to what had actually happened in this game

[Andresvmb]

And you still have me as your top Scum and the person you want to execute. So if none of these points are actually why you think I’m Scum, then why is it?

Asking me repeatedly to quote myself is exhausting. I’ve already told you my suspicions were voiced in this thread literally from IRL yesterday. You are exhausting and you wearing people down by overwhelming them with words is scum tactic. I haven’t come down on who I want to vote yet and when I put my vote down I’ll lay out the reasons

No I’m not trying to exhaust players. I’m trying to actually demonstrate that your arguments are just flimsy and bad.

[Green Crayons]

lol sorry?

You really think scum have only one mode of mis elim? shit posting?

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

I’m going to wait until more players vote before definitely placing my vote down. I’m not giving you the advantage anymore to just plop a vote and get away with poor reasoning.

[RLotus]

Why does GC take this postion against andre as scum when so many are town reading him? I feel like he is just digging a deeper hole for himself.

You have points about him voting wrong and not putting a lot of his own pushes into the game, that is totally fair and I can see him possibly being scum. I just don't feel great about this.

[Datisi]

lol sorry?

You really think scum have only one mode of mis elim? shit posting?

read the post again. i said shitpushing. that's the only way scum can push town, because they *know* what they're saying is wrong.

[Green Crayons]

- yes. yes i'm serious. if you don't think the push is malicious then there's no reason to suspect me over it. yet you're *anyway* saying that you suspect em over it because again, "midway flipped town". so what the fuck are you considering then?

Oh I thought you were asking for my thoughts on who else to push for today, which both Andres and Baltar have asked and been answered.

Scum can push a mis elim without being shot posting about it. Town do anti town or suspicious stuff. Scum can identify it and exploit it. That makes their reasoning solid and not malicious but still from a scum mindset.

So no, just bc you didn’t push bad reasoning on midway doesn’t mean you’re vote on him doesn’t get factored in. You (and everyone else on the wagon) will have it as part of the totality of the circumstances analysis.

[Andresvmb]

I feel very strongly now that VPB is Town. If I’m wrong there then I’m going to be sour about it but so be it. And I think Momrangal is probably just bad Town this game. I mean the argument that they didn’t know their vote was a hammer is comically bad. But I will admit that looking back on it, it makes me question whether that’s how Scum would defend that vote.

From my perspective, that leaves {Datisi, RLotus, maxwell, Green Crayons, Dunn, DGB}. So that’s what, a 50/50 chance of hitting Scum? I’m hesitant to vote Dunn, but if I have VPB as Town, I’m going to have to eat some humble pie perhaps and think more carefully about that one. I have been thrown out of whack over a wagon building up quickly (see the Large Normal I played), but actually when that happened in that game (to NotMafia), it happened to Scum.

I didn’t like DGB’s vote (or explanation for why), and them piling onto Green Crayons did give me the heebie-jeebies. And I don’t know, I want to trust my gut on Green Crayons, on top of everything I’ve already said, but it is true that them arguing against me is probably something Scum would look to avoid. I can be exhausting, and obstinate, and I don’t know if that’s the path of least resistance.