Open 788 - Crossfire - Game Over

[Isis]

Confirm bulletproof combined loyal neighborizer doctor.

Why are you guys picking VT?!?!

[Isis]

VOTE: Nono

[Isis]

I think making multiple RVS votes is bad, people will meaningless incidentally accidentally end up at serious numbers like e-2 and e-1 a lot. Some people are into that kind of thing I guess but I don't think high stakes RVS phases actually work better.

[Isis]

The main way this setup mechanic could help town I think is by being able to visualize how the wagons are moving and stuff better. In a normal game when you try to read over the votecounts sometimes a player "would have been down to vote up" X player but it's not really conveniently trackable. In this game you should be able to see it. And if people treat hammers as serious as they are, the mechanic shouldn't hurt.

I'm usually too lazy to even do normal votecount analysis but hopefully one of you is good at it

[Isis]

VOTE: hellbooks
VOTE: Marksman
VOTE: Nono
VOTE: Chemical Elements

VOTE: innocentvillager

VOTE: spicer1209
VOTE: Elements
VOTE: WeyounsLastClone
VOTE: Casey
VOTE: Isis
VOTE: Hayasaka
VOTE: ileileile
VOTE: Lavender
VOTE: Hiraki
I'm pretty sure I'm voting for all 4 scum

I see what you did there

[Isis]

I wanted to vote everyone and then unvote as I started townreading people like innocentvillager, then I thought about it and realized if everyone did that the game would immediately end. So it's kind of selfish.

innocentvillager is removing people so rapidly it might not be so disruptive.

[Isis]

Elements you're a treasure

like Au or Ag

[Isis]

Do you think Hiraki is equally obvtown, or do you just believe in his leadership skills?

[Isis]

Wanting to sheep a slot and thinking it is town aren't always in lockstep. Sometimes I want to sheep stops until it seems they aren't finding me scum then kill them if I think it's a good player.

[Isis]

Any I was going to state that my take is that Elements is townier than Hiraki, but Hiraki is townish too. So it'd be flipped for me.

[Isis]

I think I might wait until I have like 3 post-RVS votes, then lay them down all at once, that seems fun.

[Isis]

Elements you're a treasure

like Au or Ag

this is pretty scummy ngl
+1

do u Dislike Jokes

In fairness some people say puns are the single lowest form of humor

[Isis]

Don't worry, I can speak English quite well.

別担心，我可以說英語。

Is the left character in your avatar "chemical", and the right one "elements"?

[Isis]

Suspicious of Elements and Chemical Elements being similarly named. I don't trust it one bit. Seems a little too convenient to be a coincidence.

Likely to be at least 2 scum there.

This made me laugh at my screen. Three scum in two players would be a lot. Elements rolled scum with Chemist1422 in a game I modded, if he rolled scum with Chemical Elements this game he upped his game even further.

Do you actually townread a post like 54 or are you just meming for now?

[Isis]

UNVOTE:

should clarify that i dont think hayasaka is town tho

hellbooks dedicates a full post to discouraging a scum-threatening townblock from developing around hayasaka in a setup where she can't be killed before getting a chance to mention it.
VOTE: Hellbooks
VOTE: Chemical Elements
I agree with Chemical Elements' contributions being specifically not what's needed, and a promise of a postflip theory on villager to be presented postflip is a particularly bad look.

I agree with Hiraki that 23 and 31 are NAI and I would post them as scum, the good they do is maybe improving how we approach the setup, not revealing my alignment. Early as possible is the best time to make that type of post because it's pretty hard to make posts that reveal your alignment anyway, if you save it for later it's kind of an interruption on solving that matters a lot more.

[Isis]

I wanted a quota of three votes but I'm not there yet.

It's not that lots of people are town to me, actually, but null to me.

Normally I'd find Lavender's slow acclimation to the game good enough for a vote in a setup that encourages pacing this much, since acclimation is harder for scum imo, but I've played with her before and she just kind of is always slow on sea legs.

[Isis]

I didn't use my words well. 1 townread on Hayasaka isn't a townblock. But stating a scumlean on Hayasaka accomplishes a little bit for scum if it's a long term possibility, and I don't really see what it accomplishes for town.

The most charitable interpretation is that the goal was transparency.

[Isis]

VOTE: spicer1209
VOTE: ileileile
VOTE: Nono
This is a narrow timer and we need to get flips going. This setup is super weird and I'm trying to wrap my brain around how time needs to be managed. It's 13 days left but we don't even necessarily want to distribute them evenly among the dunks, sand in the hourglass is more valuable later when we're trying to interpret postflip associatives.

The volume of Nono's posting is what bothers me, he seems like a certain style of player that might always be this type of derpy, but is more likely to have more limited content ("content"?) on scum rands.

[Isis]

Marksman can you just state whether you scumread or townread hellbooks

like you can do that, but then post memes later
don't let ketchup touch your mac & cheese or it's gross, we do have to play some mafia

[Isis]

UNVOTE: Nono If nono is on V/LA that undermines my reasoning, didn't realize.

[Isis]

Chemical Elements' play style doesn't lead me to believe they (he?she?)are the type of player to force reads as scum when it's hard or feel afraid to highlight they've got nothing.
VOTE: Casey
Her posts are fun to read but I get somewhat of a vibe most of them are meant to look good.after a spat with Hiraki she voted him seemingly on principle rather than playing in a way that's likely to convince others to vote him even though she's so confident her vote is staying there for the rest of the game, supposedly.

[Isis]

Locked your vote's movement, tomato tomato

By "seemingly on principle" I mean you're voting him in a way that doesn't actually seem like its because you believe he will flip scum

[Isis]

um I didn't comment on it because it's so weak? but if you insist, yeah maybe I'll also just go to everyone's most recent towngame, look at their opening and scumread them because I can find a difference...

This is my first towngame ever on this site.

0.0
"2008"
0.0

[Isis]

UNVOTE: Spicer
VOTE: innocentvillager
I'm not sure if it's white knighting or defense of a partner, but innocentvillager really seems like he has extra information about Spicer's alignment. There's not nearly as much there as he's pretending there is.

A50 doesn't seem scummy, which probably warrants some credit when I usually scumread his towngame, but I'm going to leave my vote until he totally impresses me or I find elsewhere to vote instead because as has been pointed out we are sorely behind on dunks.
I'm leaning town on Nono's most recent murmuring but it is definitely like trying to read tea leaves.

I think it's ok to have multiple people run up to D-1/D-2 if their flips don't say much about eachother but it's worth paying attention to it (that's why I'm not voting spicer, I lean towards whiteknighting)
Would prefer if the mod didn't use L-X notation in the votecount

[Isis]

Um... I've just checked your topics. Did you really stop playing since 2012? Is this your first game in 8 years?? Geez! I seem to ALWAYS have a playstyle clash with the "old guard", so..

Yeah, not sure if a Nightless maffia was the best to get back into the game . Kinda confused what leads to go on and trying to find inconsistencies, but with no night actions and just wagons evolving and devolving that's more difficult than I expected. I tend to be suspicious of the more random posts like Nono (and initially hellbooks), or lurkers (like ileilei and spicer) as especially in this game with no deadlines scum could just wait, ask for replacement, wait, ask for replacement. If we purely judge by content, and there is none, they shouldn't be fully safe.

Since ileilei is replaced by you, I guess I can at least say that you're not lurking, maybe even post a bit too much Is that your typical playstyle?

"old guard" posts can be unusual but this is pretty offkilter. Clone, if you replaced out of this game and the player who replaced in for you won the game, would you have considered this game a "win" for you?

The new school paradigm is very much that you do not. And I feel pretty strongly that it should be that way; assuming without deciding the player replacing out needs to get the fullest forgiveness because their extenuating circumstances are so dire, the player replacing in has to give their all so I think they need to feel the win is 100% theirs

[Isis]

How's your intuition, Casey?

I want to subscribe to your current train of thought

If you're a gut player, does this mean you think Marksman is town, you just think he's wrong?

[Isis]

Is he at L-1? VOTE: WeyounsLastClone

[Isis]

Wait was he really at L-1
No no seemed to want to hammer somebody more than I wanted a bicycle for my 8th christmas

[Isis]

I complained about L notation in a previous post

but my habit revision efforts are at their weakest when I'm drunk

[Isis]

We could have arranged for him to unvote, have someone else add a vote, then let him revote

we have the technology

[Isis]

I feel good about redflip but that makes me feel even worse that I didn't let No do it.

[Isis]

This game is going well o.O
Though, I didn't contribute orz

VOTE: Lavender
VOTE: Hayasaka
UNVOTE: Almost50
UNVOTE: Chemical Elements

I don't want to find and quote A50 but this should serve as an answer. I like how the second group is reacting to the scumflip better than the first group, generally.

I think Nono is town. If Nono knew Clone was a partner, I think he would have had his vote off Clone so he could hammer. Nono doesn't seem like he'd restrict himself the straightest of play.

[Isis]

Why? I had the opposite reaction to that post

[Isis]

A50's AtE is pretty similar to how I've seen him play as town, but it doesn't make any sense that he'd avoid using AtE as scum.

I already thought Nono is town so I think we should deadsheep Hayasaka's read.

[Isis]

UNVOTE: Raya
I am once again creeped out about innocent villager pretending to know the alignment of Rayaslot and I think dithering about townreading people for calling him out looks like scum damage control

[Isis]

if it helps I have a little bit less of a TR on spicer now that they have replaced out completely

It does, actually

[Isis]

I townread Raya, although I don't agree with her reads for the most part. I think scum would do an emptier catchup given that pace of the game and she chose to give us a lot. Also, apparently I should not understimate her, ever.

I'm also not opposed to exiling Elements next, would like to hear from him but with such a harsh deadline maybe that's asking a lot.

[Isis]

Yes I agree with that read right now

Though I still don't see how you concluded it off of spicer's posting

[Isis]

Nono you were more excited about hammering in general earlier, were you townreading or nullreading hellbooks?

[Isis]

you were joking about having reservations just now, or you were joking about your desire to hammer-because-it's-fun?

[Isis]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lavender
It's probably a good time to vote one person at a time because of chainhammering?
I've played with Lavender before and I know she doesn't say a ton sometimes, but I think I remember getting more evidence of help in the search for scum before.
I am townreading Marksman, Raya, and Nono more than I'm scumreading much of anyone.

oops
VOTE: villager
same marksman, VOTE: clone

let me hammer please
kbai

This is doesn't look like a partner post at all. Scum!Nono would think of Clone's dunk as likely because he's guilty and would expect he wouldn't actually get to dunk. Like.. it's a cognitive zigzag.

[Isis]

Monkey, turn the speakers down from 11. We have 7/14 days left and 10/14 players alive. Voting four players isn't ridiculous.

[Isis]

I don't feel confident who the scum is more than anyone else, but this deadline really pressures us to dunk :/

I still like my top candidate because the way Chemical Elements acted like he'd never thought of scum behaving the way you don't expect them to behave intentionally so he could shift off a position that was bringing him lots of heat looks pretty damn bad. It's not an impossible to remind someone of the other side of WIFOM and slowly change their view that happens in games but massive convenient 180s usually come from scum.

I don't understand Casey's pairing list

really looking forward to Nono solving this game

[Isis]

I want to townlock Casey and I don't even care if it's wrong look at the pretty colors omg

[Isis]

That's like so much work

I generally agree with most of the cells

[Isis]

who did you roll scum with instead?

[Isis]

Can you compliment nono in the PT cause I'm fooled

[Isis]

I think it was pretty good analysis. I don't really follow the points about Raya, exactly, I'm not sure reciprocating townreads is scum indicative, since you kind of improve your odds of winning if you reciprocate townreads even as town (like as town, misdunking all the players who townread you will always lose you the game when those players misdunk you in XLo, misdunking all the players that scumread you will give you a decent shot at winning XLo.)

I vibe a lot of the other stuff even if Nono writes weird.

[Isis]

I believe he's saying that cognitively it's more natural to describe someone as having viewed the red PM instead of the green PM instead of just stating that the green PM wasn't viewed at all. The idea being that someone with perfect knowledge would state it differently. Tells like that are unreliable but I don't think they're worthless and I try to use them from time to time, they can be somewhat better than rand. This isn't my favorite argument ever but it's good faith.

[Isis]

UNVOTE: Lavender

[Isis]

I read Nono's post and it shows that dunking Nono is likely to produce green text

[Isis]

Do you genuinely consider 880 to be a scummy post? I don't think I'm confbiasing, to the extent it's flawed it looks like genuine effort to solve the game, not disingenuous because there's an agenda

[Isis]

"Supreme Leader" is always Hiraki, IV keeps bringing him up at odd times but as far as I can tell he always means Hiraki when he says leader

Raya36-Uhm, honestly everytime I read their posts my mind goes blank, they interact a lot, that's ok yeah. I tried to read their thoughts, got stuck on them thinking Hiraki was town for the same reasons I thought they were evil.

I kind of zone out during Raya's posts too; sometimes that's a scum marker but I feel like Raya has a towny tone or something. Maybe I should be more worried.

[Isis]

I don't comment on Ruby Red cause I don't know her meta

[Isis]

Sorry sorry, I didn't expect for me to be gone that long, some IRL things that I don't want to think about.
I'm going to go ahead and re-read this game and see what I come up with.
So I can actually be of some use! ٩(•̤̀ᵕ•̤́๑)

UNVOTE: Lavender

What in that post from Lav triggered an unvote?

It just didn't take much because I feel pretty narrowly interested in a Chemical Elements dunk right now anyway. I don't even remember clearly whether that sentiment made me unvote her previous to that post.
I think you'd agree she delivered.

[Isis]

I'm getting lost..

[Isis]

I meant the nonmemey argument you were having

I want to know why Chemical Elements isn't dying even though no one is defending him

[Isis]

I thought I was already voting Chemical Elements.
We do need to keep moving so let's go, VOTE: Chemical Elements.

[Isis]

I still don't see Nono the way he's being seen

[Isis]

I townread Hiraki, A50, and Raya the least. I have trouble shaking the feeling scumteam thinks of Nono as an -expected- misdunk given the playstyle he has but everytime someone tries to scumcase his content it seems to me like they're poking at the point in his rather, er, peculiar thinking and pointing out its aberrant. But never really scum, and everything he does is aberrant. Scum usually expects to misdunk aberrant people. Those are mostly the players who have spewed town to me the least to me as well (except for maybe IV), but they're probably not all scum.
pedit: Casey's got a brand new batting average to show you!

everyone who understands this reference can have 3 of my proxy votes.

[Isis]

Does that mean neither of you understand the reference I mean it's not a big deal but I'll be completely and utterly devastated

[Isis]

*endless weeping

[Isis]

Spoiler:

The outlook wasn't brilliant for the Mudville nine that day;
the score stood four to two, with but one inning more to play.
And then when Cooney died at first, and Barrows did the same,
a sickly silence fell upon the patrons of the game.

A straggling few got up to go in deep despair. The rest
clung to that hope which springs eternal in the human breast;
they thought, if only Casey could get but a whack at that –
they'd put up even money, now, with Casey at the bat.

But Flynn preceded Casey, as did also Jimmy Blake,
and the former was a lulu and the latter was a cake,
so upon that stricken multitude grim melancholy sat,
for there seemed but little chance of Casey's getting to the bat.

But Flynn let drive a single, to the wonderment of all,
and Blake, the much despised, tore the cover off the ball;
and when the dust had lifted, and the men saw what had occurred,
there was Jimmy safe at second and Flynn a-hugging third.

Then from five thousand throats and more there rose a lusty yell;
it rumbled through the valley, it rattled in the dell;
it knocked upon the mountain and recoiled upon the flat,
for Casey, mighty Casey, was advancing to the bat.

There was ease in Casey's manner as he stepped into his place;
there was pride in Casey's bearing and a smile on Casey's face.
And when, responding to the cheers, he lightly doffed his hat,
no stranger in the crowd could doubt 'twas Casey at the bat.

Ten thousand eyes were on him as he rubbed his hands with dirt;
five thousand tongues applauded when he wiped them on his shirt.
Then while the writhing pitcher ground the ball into his hip,
defiance gleamed in Casey's eye, a sneer curled Casey's lip.

And now the leather-covered sphere came hurtling through the air,
and Casey stood a-watching it in haughty grandeur there.
Close by the sturdy batsman the ball unheeded sped—
"That ain't my style," said Casey. "Strike one," the umpire said.

From the benches, black with people, there went up a muffled roar,
like the beating of the storm-waves on a stern and distant shore.
"Kill him! Kill the umpire!" shouted someone on the stand;
and it's likely they'd have killed him had not Casey raised his hand.

With a smile of Christian charity great Casey's visage shone;
he stilled the rising tumult; he bade the game go on;
he signaled to the pitcher, and once more the spheroid flew;
but Casey still ignored it, and the umpire said: "Strike two."

"Fraud!" cried the maddened thousands, and Echo answered fraud;
but one scornful look from Casey and the audience was awed.
They saw his face grow stern and cold, they saw his muscles strain,
and they knew that Casey wouldn't let that ball go by again.

The sneer is gone from Casey's lip, his teeth are clenched in hate;
he pounds with cruel violence his bat upon the plate.
And now the pitcher holds the ball, and now he lets it go,
and now the air is shattered by the force of Casey's blow.

Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
the band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,
and somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout;
but there is no joy in Mudville — mighty Casey has struck out.

[Isis]

I wanted to grant it as a prize for knowing the reference but I guess you can have it for being obvtown, VOTE: Hiraki

[Isis]

Looking back on Chemical Elements I was voting alongside a lot of people I was concerned about, maybe I need to be bloccing more to decide among the people I don't like.

I don't fully blame myself there is a lot of deadline pleasure and the play moving fast

[Isis]

I have no votes I think, you can vote me if you wannoo. There's wiggle room

[Isis]

It's a story I really like and in Earthbound you get the "Casey Bat" and you can run around and mostly miss and deal big damage if you hit

[Isis]

We need to flip Hiraki
The moaning about us doing so bad that we are only twice the size of the scumteam seems fake
Nono still isn't scum

[Isis]

I think it's probably some among a50 lavender and Raya. Although I think lavender is playing well this game and shouldn't be so hard on herself for her play in Anyone Can Post

[Isis]

Hiraki wanting to vote Nono definitely doesn't change my mind about Nono being town.

Casey why do you think Hiraki is town now?

[Isis]

I know the deadline is short but I don't want to hammer my highest townread in the game :/
pedit: I guess IV is gonna do it

[Isis]

Those two statements don't make sense together

but I don't understand the chain dunk stuff with perfect clarity so UNVOTE: all

[Isis]

two statements being the first and second line of 1080, but then you posted again

[Isis]

Vote Hiraki with me.
Head over heart.
<3

[Isis]

that's not the appropriate emoticon for the argument I'm making huh

[Isis]

yknow, even a blind squirrel finds a nut or something something

The 9s avatar would work fancier with this post

[Isis]

If the flips red I will listen to other people and stuff. But this is like the one read I had this game; I don't think it will.

[Isis]

VOTE: Hiraki

[Isis]

Is this going to segue into a Hiraki vote!?!?!
pedit: i c

[Isis]

im hard-assuming casey is town at this point i completely give up if casey is scum

[Isis]

This is roundabouts the phase where town!inno admits he ought to be voting the captain of 4 misdunks because he never produced a reason to townread his RVS meme, and the phase where scum!inno comes up with off the wall stuff that maintains his sweep.

It actually might be a bit more likely that inno is scum than Hiraki if he feels uncomfortable transitioning reads as scum, but the simplest thing is they're just scum together.

I don't have any idea on the third though.

Everyone else's approach to this phase has seemed more genuine

[Isis]

I wasn't planning to hammer weyclone until i happened to long on drunk and find you guys had put him at D1

I only thought he seemed a little scummy, I was actually a little lost on him being a hivemind obvscum read, but maybe that's why I townread nono more

*log on

[Isis]

What does "discredit" mean in this context?

[Isis]

I think that's a good idea. I might or might not have time to do so but I'll provide my take if I'm able

In particular I think all the slots might be more readable day 1 because the unusual deadline was warping everyone's play the lease.

Spicer and Lavender's slots were AWOL for that phase though unfortunately (Raya in the back half some unless that was day 2)

[Isis]

I only had time to read a little bit but I remember liking lavender more

That doesn't change whether I want to flip Hiraki I guess

[Isis]

Is Hiraki still not hammered?

Is this really that hard?

[Isis]

I have never played a game like this and I don't know if this deadline will be impossible or not that hard since it is an amount of time people have for crunch deadlines all the time and maybe adding extra dunks doesn't add that much difficulty if people are already online for the previous ones

I'm pretty unlikely to be refusing to hammer people Casey wants to dunk but if someone I townread as much as Nono was alive I wouldn't want to vote just because we nominated a captain

[Isis]

I didn't actually vote no but I was going to because of bullish influences from other players so I hate hearing about needing to do things I don't wanna do again

It's an emotional thing I guess you're right it won't come up

[Isis]

I didn't actually vote no but I was going to because of bullish influences from other players so I hate hearing about needing to do things I don't wanna do again

It's an emotional thing I guess you're right it won't come up

[Isis]

Yeah I don't want to play around Casey!scum at this point even though it's not impossible

[Isis]

If Casey is scum I think she's doing a good job.

[Isis]

Based on how Ruby Red's schedule happens to compare to Casey's we might have to vote on her contingencies?

I want to build up beyond a 0 with Lavender not because I am worried about ruling out scumteams or something or whatever but because Lavender is cool

Lavender come level up our relationship

Why'd you unvote Hiraki?

[Isis]

Based on how Ruby Red's schedule happens to compare to Casey's we might have to vote on her contingencies?

I want to build up beyond a 0 with Lavender not because I am worried about ruling out scumteams or something or whatever but because Lavender is cool

Lavender come level up our relationship

Why'd you unvote Hiraki?

Lmao XD
I unvoted because
A. I’m really bad at reads, like really bad, so I second-guessed myself.
And
B. I wanted them to have a chance to say something before they got hammered.

If you're usually bad at reads, do you ever try finding townreads and trusting them?

[Isis]

Why is it bizarre?

[Isis]

I don't know how Hiraki usually acts after hammered but I'm hopeful he's going to flip scum. There's a lot of benefit in this situation to twilight troll

[Isis]

If he doesn't flip red and Casey sticks with her choice we lose, so I hope you have to "almost clear" me.
I don't understand what I said that made her change her mind but I kind of don't mind losing an almost lost game to chat with Lavender. Some of how she thinks about mafia games is interesting

[Isis]

That doesn't make sense from you when you were considering "clearing" me a moment ago. I'm not sure why Casey is townbinning you when you've been really inconsistent throughout the game.

[Isis]

You might be town though

You're one of those kinds of players I find kind of inscrutable

then at the end of the game the moderator says what it is and I'm like "oh this is a clockwise not a counterclockwise" and it makes sense

[Isis]

I mean you're correct that it looks like I may lose the game on the next vote but that is because I'm town?? I would be less annoyed as scum, I would still have a chance to win from partners

[Isis]

I acknowledged/implied that the chart was not a real reason to townread you Casey. I thought you seemed scummy all game but decided to start reconsidering around then, and some of the posts after the chart changed my mind, looking back, 951 and 959 were two of the good ones.
I knew my vote on Wey was a hammer. I was realizing that there was a player in the game that had requested the privilege of hammering, I was not realizing that I had hammered at all.

I don't really want to keep up with IV's spam posting and if I hem and haw things defending myself, we probably lose anyway from the timer. So.. the best I can ask is that you follow an instinct on someone else you want to dunk even more, because then we get one more misdunk and we wouldn't lose it if you dunk me after.

Ignoring IV's chanting, do you really think I'm the scummiest in the whole game?
I haven't given this game as much effort as some of my others honestly, but I'd still be a bit disappointed

pedit: there were pedits.

[Isis]

The two points I picked were factual innaccuracies, the other parts are opinion based. I didn't actually want to talk about your case at all until I got a feeling on whether you were reconsidering at all, but it was hard to resist pointing out really fact-based-things

[Isis]

VOTE: Isis

[Isis]

GG
I kinda shared my setup thought in the pt. Didn't really want to roll scum in this setup

[Isis]