Newbie 2085 - Game Over

[Prism]

For Meteor and frogs:

No wait, sorry, TMI

is

a term that is used and is a valid thing to read on. Scum have incentive to create content, too, because they have to look townie. It's the quality of the information as well as the quantity that's important, and posting game relevant but empty content is potentially scum indicative. Again, not something I even think about Taly anymore, and I'm certainly a newbie here too, but you're misunderstanding me or

something

.

I’m sorry but I don’t understand. What you seem to describe as TMI here wouldn’t be information it’d just be fluff presented as information. I don’t know if that’s just me not understanding or something that actively doesn’t make sense about the term or what. The way I see it I’d only consider meaningful information as information and in that scenario there can’t possibly be TMI, but at this point I think I’m getting into semantics not even with a player’s own terminology but with site terms, assuming that actually is one (I’ll check the wiki).

This was tough to parse, but I think Meteor has the right interpretation of TMI here.

There's two typical usages of TMI. First is the very direct scumslip, where scum say something they shouldn't know as town, like how many scum there are in a closed setup. The second is when someone seems to be drawing a conclusion too easily perhaps

because

they have too much information.

I think the label of fluff/filling space would be more accurate than TMI. All of that said, I'm null on Taly.

[Prism]

What exactly is wrong with filling space at this point in the game, it’s how you create a situation that we actually can evaluate alignment in? Unless of course, maybe your alignment would prefer that doesn’t happen.VOTE: frogsfrogs

You seem to understand later that frogs is concerned that Taly's questions are intended to avoid taking stances or pushes of his own.

What exactly leads you to think it is scum motivated to pursue?

[Prism]

I think this game is already a small improvement from frogs' first (scum-aligned) game onsite, where it took them a second to get into gear and were more reticent to give reads.

I was hoping this would be an easy read but the depth of reads when given was honestly quite striking. frogs-how did you feel that scumgame went for you, and what do you think led to you being caught out? I saw you believed the nightkills were mistakes, but I'm curious more about dayplay.

[Prism]

I love random questions at early stages of the game. That way, we will get to know each other and possibly gather info,

especially that I am a potential role that will help town.

I really don't like to acknowledge these outside of Newbie games. I don't think this is a good idea regardless of whether you are a VT or in fact a PR. It tends to cause more trouble than the gambit is worth, and the scumteam often winds up guessing correctly in light of the reactions. I hope that will not be the case this game.

[Prism]

Eh, reviewing the actual timestamps it really doesn't take frogs long that game and their response to implosion wasn't entirely devoid of a real stance.

Should be a fun table!

[WINfried]

I love random questions at early stages of the game. That way, we will get to know each other and possibly gather info,

especially that I am a potential role that will help town.

Upon further thought, this comment appears even stranger to me than initially. Not only have you breadcrumbed a town role as mafia before (game 2048), it also didn't do you any good, and you said you wouldn't do that again. And you can't even claim that you didn't expect anyone to bring that up because that has also happened to you before. And you suggest you might be a power role 5 minutes after you state that as a player you are "neutral and passive". What?

Why do you keep playing with fire?

UNVOTE: ishrar
VOTE: Binatog13

[Laplacian]

I completely agree with WINfried's callout. The more I think about Binatog's claim, the more I see 3 options and none of them make me happy:

1. Binatog is town, and has a special role. This paints a target on him for no good reason at all
2. Binatog is town, but has no role. Makes that claim a weird gambit that erodes trust in him and makes real town roles harder to claim
3. Binatog is mafia. A roleclaim this early lets him set up a future fakeclaim

None of these benefit town. Furthermore, #2 seems unlikely as Binatog has played several games before. So he's either playing recklessly or is scum. I don't think we should quickly hammer* the vote as we have an absent player and I want to hear Bin's defense, but he's is currently an uncontested #1 on my sus list
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Binatog13

*if we get close to elim before Binatog's defense and without everyone having posted, I'll unvote

[Laplacian]

As an aside, as a new person on this site I'm surprised with the sheer magnitude of meta. I'm used to day phases being 2-4 irl days, so I guess having 7-10 gives a lot more time to delve into previous game voting patterns and timestamps. It's both cool and intimidating

[Meteor Tome]

Not too fond of this Binatog push, I see absolutely no reason to doubt a PR claim even though it was a strange one. It’s already bad enough that a PR has been outed for no reason, if we pursue him we run the risk of forcing him to claim which PR, giving the mafia setup information and making their night action easier to plan out. In the unlikely scenario that he is mafia fake-claiming PR I highly doubt the facade will be sustainable further into the game.

[Prism]

...Did you read the part where they softed PR as scum previously?

[Meteor Tome]

...Did you read the part where they softed PR as scum previously?

Yeah but I imagine that was a learned lesson and not a move that will be repeated. And once again, if I’m wrong, and he is mafia, he’s essentially signed his death warrant as a fake PR claim will not be sustainable in later days.

[frogsfrogs]

UNVOTE: Binatog
In which situation of those three does town benefit from pressuring him now, Laplacian? What's the best we can get from it? 1. A real PR claim, where Mafia now get to know the setup + who to kill tonight; very bad! 2. An admission that it was a fake soft claim, where mafia now know not to kill Bin because he isn't a PR, and then we just have to go back to reading him anyways to decide if he's now telling the truth or not. Or 3. Scum!Binatog now fakeclaiming one of the previous two. If he fakeclaims a PR, in almost all setups at least one real PR knows he's lying, and they can decide to out themselves or not. If he fakeclaims VT, then, again, we have to read him like anyone else, right?
The situations you've set up being annoying doesn't mean that voting Binatog helps. I think it's bad for town for there to be any PR claims as early as this and that soft claims like this are best ignored, though factored in. I don't see enough from Binatog otherwise to read him yet.

[frogsfrogs]

I'm looking through 2048 but am not seeing anything similar to what Binatog did here. Can someone link to the softing PR as scum receipts??

I don't think Binatog should say anything more at all about his role claim tbh. Don't give the mafia the info.

[WINfried]

Post #900 in that game he spelt "T R A C K E R" with the first letters in the words of his comment.

[Laplacian]

I actually did waffle for a bit on whether to vote or not. That's mainly why I added that footnote of "if we get close to elim before Binatog's defense and without everyone having posted, I'll unvote". Right now I want info, not an elimination. Vote pressure imo says "explain yourself or else", and even if he doesn't full claim he at least needs to say

why

he chose to softclaim so early

[frogsfrogs]

I think this game is already a small improvement from frogs' first (scum-aligned) game onsite, where it took them a second to get into gear and were more reticent to give reads.

I was hoping this would be an easy read but the depth of reads when given was honestly quite striking. frogs-how did you feel that scumgame went for you, and what do you think led to you being caught out? I saw you believed the nightkills were mistakes, but I'm curious more about dayplay.

Yeah, I was pretty happy with that game as my first ever in forum mafia and first as scum!! Lots of weirdly intricate mechanical stuff happened, we got two blocked nightkills and had no chance anymore. In the day, I was probably too focused on seeming townie and appealing to everyone, especially when I wasn't good enough at that to fully convince people lol. Day 2 I got tunnelled for a bit and then the player let it go, but they'd absolutely been right in their assessment of why my reads didn't seem to be coming from a townie. My apprehension at making moves was also probably a scumtell-- I would have been nervous as town then too, but probably not acting the same way lol.

[Meteor Tome]

What exactly is wrong with filling space at this point in the game, it’s how you create a situation that we actually can evaluate alignment in? Unless of course, maybe your alignment would prefer that doesn’t happen.VOTE: frogsfrogs

You seem to understand later that frogs is concerned that Taly's questions are intended to avoid taking stances or pushes of his own.

What exactly leads you to think it is scum motivated to pursue?

Nothing, I just wanted to see how they’d react to being pushed like that.

[frogsfrogs]

Post #900 in that game he spelt "T R A C K E R" with the first letters in the words of his comment.

OK, thank you for showing me! I completely disagree that this is analogous or means anything for his play now lol. That was him fully fakeclaiming a PR on day 2 after being put at E-1. That's a situation in which a lot of scum will fakeclaim and is totally different to a soft on page 2 of a game. It's possible to do as scum but less likely and it isn't backed up by any meta of his.

[frogsfrogs]

...Did you read the part where they softed PR as scum previously?

I don't think this is true anymore but even assuming it was, do you think that Binatog having previously softed PR as scum would make voting him in this case a good / the right move, Prism? Asking both for the sake of my read on you and for a SE perspective lol

[frogsfrogs]

I actually did waffle for a bit on whether to vote or not. That's mainly why I added that footnote of "if we get close to elim before Binatog's defense and without everyone having posted, I'll unvote". Right now I want info, not an elimination. Vote pressure imo says "explain yourself or else", and even if he doesn't full claim he at least needs to say

why

he chose to softclaim so early

Ok, yeah, we disagree there. I specifically do not think we gain anything from an explanation in this situation and are, in fact, more likely to be hindered by it. Info is power and scum inherently have more of it right now.

[WINfried]

Post #900 in that game he spelt "T R A C K E R" with the first letters in the words of his comment.

OK, thank you for showing me! I completely disagree that this is analogous or means anything for his play now lol. That was him fully fakeclaiming a PR on day 2 after being put at E-1. That's a situation in which a lot of scum will fakeclaim and is totally different to a soft on page 2 of a game. It's possible to do as scum but less likely and it isn't backed up by any meta of his.

It's not the same situation. Thing is, the topic of fake claims has been debated revolving that situation and he's been strategizing around fake claims before, so I'm not buying into the "newbie made risky play without really knowing what they're doing" explanation, that is implied here when someone assumes that he actually is a somewhat naive PR. At least he's not getting a free pass from me here. Remove this from the equation, and he's still giving me bad vibes for being pretty quiet for the start of the game and then suddenly coming out of the woods 1 hour after I poked him with this odd reaction.

[Taly]

Not too fond of this Binatog push, I see absolutely no reason to doubt a PR claim even though it was a strange one. It’s already bad enough that a PR has been outed for no reason, if we pursue him we run the risk of forcing him to claim which PR, giving the mafia setup information and making their night action easier to plan out. In the unlikely scenario that he is mafia fake-claiming PR I highly doubt the facade will be sustainable further into the game.

...Did you read the part where they softed PR as scum previously?

...Did you read the part where they softed PR as scum previously?

Yeah but I imagine that was a learned lesson and not a move that will be repeated. And once again, if I’m wrong, and he is mafia, he’s essentially signed his death warrant as a fake PR claim will not be sustainable in later days.

I'm in agreement with

MT

here, the hardcrumb is self-resolving. Bringing attention to it feels rolefishy.

so I'm not buying into the "newbie made risky play without really knowing what they're doing" explanation

I get not giving

Bing

a pass off this basis, but this feels like a preemptive justification.

Bing

has yet to reply to any suspicion on them based off that post.

[Prism]

Taly, I was really hoping for more here on the reads front.

VOTE: Taly

You're expressing skepticism of the votes on Binatog but not actually weighing in on the players. I have other thoughts but they will wait.

[Prism]

...Did you read the part where they softed PR as scum previously?

I don't think this is true anymore but even assuming it was, do you think that Binatog having previously softed PR as scum would make voting him in this case a good / the right move, Prism? Asking both for the sake of my read on you and for a SE perspective lol

No, I don't think it would be strongly indicative. My issue was in the phrasing of Meteor's "absolutely no reason to doubt a PR claim". We had just been given reason to doubt the PR claim.

I really don't like to read into claims to begin with and while I

will pull up the game at some point

bit the bullet and pulled it up now, I

hate

open softs/rolefishing, and after years of chat mafia I'm used to seeing it from big brain VTs all the time.

I don't have time right now to backtrack and interpret this but maybe someone else does:

Ye, Town got his chance after this.

If you claimed PR, in most cases you need stay in that way or make really good excuse for that. Protecting PR doesh't work, because it's actually harmful.

thanks for this advice, will do in my future games.

[Taly]

I'm not forcing it

Prism

, this game is denser than others in terms of posting rate relative to content.

Plus I've got my hands full with IRL work and other games

Expecting reads from me on various players by now is reasonable, and it's also reasonable to assume this post is some sort of deflection from solving as I've been accused of that before, but that's not what is happening.

I'm waiting to hear back from Win before I go further.

I think

Frogs'

suspicion of my posts being potential TMI was valid. I liked his inquiry to Lap in 60 because I don't think it's productive to surmise all the realities behind Bin's claim at the very least until they reply.

I think

Lap

waffling on

Bin

suggests their initial vote had no ulterior motives despite it being encouraged by

Win's

first vote. I doubt S/S is in

Lap/Bin/Win/Frog

off first impression and that is very well above rand, but I've kept it to myself because I don't have the complete picture to feel confident or assert it.

Also,

Prism

, my initial read on you was more of a way to help me read you rather than a definitive statement. You seemed cautious about my townping on you but it doesn't register as a mafia cautious to me.