Open 853 - PYP X/Y S_S [game over!]

[Aristeia]

since last night you've been calling me gross. you've been calling me disgusting. you've been calling me a liar. you've been misrepping me. it's hard not to feel emotional about that.

These are comments about your play in a game that is centered around lying and deception.

I am not making these comments about you as a person.

I also don't understand why you are emotional about these comments if you believe I am a scum who is lying.

[humaneatingmonkey]

i'm also willing to drop this, but we're the two highest wagons and i feel irresponsible to drop out when the game is about us right now.

[Aristeia]

how is our 1v1 isn't moving the game forward if i'm scum?

there are twelve other slots to sort and more pages of us 1v1ing is not good for thread health or sorting other people.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I also don't understand why you are emotional about these comments if you believe I am a scum who is lying.

have someone tell you that you're lying when you've been honest, and then come back to me.

[Roden]

If you actually care about putting focus back on the game as a whole then just call a truce and move on. Unless you think your 1v1 is pushing the game forward I guess but both of you don't appear to be scum locking each other.

this just assumed we are tvt. i realized you were voting me. so you don't actually believe i'm scum?

What part of "if you're not scum locking each other then call a truce and move on" translates as "I'm assuming you're TvT"?

[Aristeia]

I also don't understand why you are emotional about these comments if you believe I am a scum who is lying.

have someone tell you that you're lying when you've been honest, and then come back to me.

this game is literally about lying.

it is a requirement to lie if you are mafia.

it is not a stain on your reputation or your character it is literally what we signed up to play.

[humaneatingmonkey]

i understand. that's why i don't take it personal.

[humaneatingmonkey]

If you actually care about putting focus back on the game as a whole then just call a truce and move on. Unless you think your 1v1 is pushing the game forward I guess but both of you don't appear to be scum locking each other.

this just assumed we are tvt. i realized you were voting me. so you don't actually believe i'm scum?

What part of "if you're not scum locking each other then call a truce and move on" translates as "I'm assuming you're TvT"?

your whole thing assumes that this 1v1 isn't moving the game forward if you're calling for us to have a truce and move on. aren't you improving your reads by watching us bicker? how have your read on me developed?

[Ausuka]

hem, do you have any reads currently other than aristeia-scum and gamma-town (and any others I may have missed in a brief iso-skim)?

And do you make anything of the new people jumping on your wagon?

I like these posts from implo, they are basically what came to mind for me as well and his posts feel like they have a towny thought process, he's a townread for me now

@Ari, I answered 1, 19, 51. You can extrapolate that to be like, 1 16 216 if it needs to be numbers that were actually selected. It's not like I just refused to do it

I feel like i'm being misconstrued about the argument I was making - I wasn't pushing Ari for asking 3 numbers, I explicitly think that's NAI, my push was about something else entirely (the draft was anomalous and I think pushing to townread the high numbers is a strange position for town to take and could benefit the scum wincon). Maybe I miscommunicated but multiple people seemed to understand what I was saying even if they didn't agree with it

[humaneatingmonkey]

the draft was anomalous and I think pushing to townread the high numbers is a strange position for town to take and could benefit the scum wincon

thanks for articulating this. this is where i was on ari when she opened with it. especially since she has a high number as well.

[humaneatingmonkey]

123 was not a joke

[Ausuka]

W/ hem - I disagree with most of the points outlined I think. While my perspective might be biased since i'm the one HEM is supposed to be copying, I think the scum motive for pushing the 'high numbers are town' narrative is much clearer than the town motive, and while I disagree with the line of questioning he had about Ari's 3 numbers thing, I don't think it's something that can only come from scum here. Like Ari makes a good case for why the point is wrong but I don't think it makes a good HEM scumcase, I can see town looking at Ari dropping her activity having pushed it so hard and then think, 'ok what's up with that, if you can give it up so easily it was probably busywork' if that makes sense

I am a little curious why HEM came into the thread telling me to shut up about numbers and then went on with similar talking points though

If I were to call you scum it wouldn’t be for that
But like, it’s been proven that scum have gambitted on high numbers before
So what make you think a high number is more likely town?

because scum want to pick before town does; order matters very much to them.

If a scum player picks a PR, that's a PR that a town player can't get.

I find the probability of a "collision" to be very low when you get out to the double digits.

Imo if you pick something between 20 - 40 you are very very unlikely to be collided with.

When you pick a number that is higher than 100, you're basically ceding priority in the pick order to every two digit number without really gaining much in terms of "less collision probability" so I find these picks to be more likely to come from town than scum.

I think it's more likely that a town player would pick a very large out there number rather than a scum player because there are more players in the scum PT and one of them is likely to say "well why dont you pick like 25 instead of 212?"

There's also the sense that you're working as a team to come up with picks that fit your strategy rather than a town player just picking whatever number they happen to like.

Ari I'm curious about this post. I mean, I think it's always best for town to be as high up the draft as possible, to deny scum PRs and increase the likelihood of town PRs, hence why I chose 2. You seem to agree with me here, saying the reason you think it's town indicative is because scum would discuss the issue and then be less likely to do it

But you seem like a smart person who's thought about draft mechanics - if you believe that it's suboptimal to pick a high number, why do it, and why then call HEM out for the same thing (believing it to be suboptimal but choosing a high number anyway)? Am I missing something here?

[Roden]

If you actually care about putting focus back on the game as a whole then just call a truce and move on. Unless you think your 1v1 is pushing the game forward I guess but both of you don't appear to be scum locking each other.

this just assumed we are tvt. i realized you were voting me. so you don't actually believe i'm scum?

What part of "if you're not scum locking each other then call a truce and move on" translates as "I'm assuming you're TvT"?

your whole thing assumes that this 1v1 isn't moving the game forward if you're calling for us to have a truce and move on. aren't you improving your reads by watching us bicker? how have your read on me developed?

No I'm telling you to stop moaning and taking up space if you think the experiment and subsequent fight with Ari isn't going anywhere. I voted you because I thought your approach was scummy, but you two going back and forth isn't going to convince me one side is more right than the other. If you are TvT and you decide to shit fight all of Day 1 then scum get a free day and we get nothing but apathy and hurt feelings on Day 2. If it is TvS then I'd prefer that you two start interacting with others so you can spew and we can examine said spew if we get a red flip sometime down the road.

My read on you will develop when I see you do something other than repeatedly tell Ari how much she's tilting you and misrepping you and lying and whatever else you think she's doing. And vis versa with Ari as well.

[Aristeia]

Ari I'm curious about this post. I mean, I think it's always best for town to be as high up the draft as possible, to deny scum PRs and increase the likelihood of town PRs, hence why I chose 2. You seem to agree with me here, saying the reason you think it's town indicative is because scum would discuss the issue and then be less likely to do it

But you seem like a smart person who's thought about draft mechanics - if you believe that it's suboptimal to pick a high number, why do it, and why then call HEM out for the same thing (believing it to be suboptimal but choosing a high number anyway)? Am I missing something here?

I called out HEM because of the way he said it was "scummy" to pick a high number and then the excuse he gave himself - it feels like he internalized that what he did was scummy, decided to attack me for it, and then said it was actually sentimental for him.

I'm not particularly good at nightplay, I am fairly good at dayplay and solving for alignment through what is going on in the thread. I don't want a high draft number because I think it would give the scum a 2-for-1 by shooting a strong solver and a power role at the same time. My preferred role is VT because I can be as aggressive as I want without really worrying about becoming too "obvtown" and getting shot at night and costing the town a PR.

[Aristeia]

like the way I think about role distribution in a micro - I want TPRs to go towards people who are LHF or inactive or not very good because scum become obligated to shoot them at night because if they leave PRs alive it creates mech issues for them down the line.

a scum team in a normal typically looks at who is mis-limmable, who is LHF, who is an easy push etc; giving these players strong TPRs such as FN, Vig, Mason, Doctor etc takes them off the table as potential mis-elims and squeezes the POE for the scum team.

In this game it's atypical in that ascetic cop, doctor, tracker, jker etc can be scum roles rather than town roles but the nature of the draft makes it so that remaining alive unreasonably long is an actually useful indicator for sorting alignment on slots that are not very good at alignment telling or can be potential mis-elims.

[Aristeia]

for example let's say Enchant.

I'm not very good at reading Enchant - he rarely does much in a game and typically not very AI. He's kind of like a mini-NM in a way.

He has slot 1 pick, usually the strongest TPR.

If he survives very long, it feels obvious to me that he is just mafia, if he gets shot by the mafia at night because they think he is ascetic cop, that resolves the slot for me. I would rather have these picks go to someone I am bad at sorting because it resolves issues for me down the line.

[Ausuka]

Just choose PGO

But ok I think that's a fair answer for why you chose a high pick

[Aristeia]

I can see town looking at Ari dropping her activity having pushed it so hard and then think, 'ok what's up with that, if you can give it up so easily it was probably busywork' if that makes sense

I don't think I gave up particularly easily.

I made multiple posts trying to convince everyone to give me three numbers for example:

45 57 58 76 80 115 121


I gave up because it was fairly clear to me that people were not interested in the thought experiment and I have no desire to twist people's arms into doing something they are not interested in doing.

[humaneatingmonkey]

it's not actually sentimental for me. i chose 80085 because it's boobs

[humaneatingmonkey]

i was joking, but i realize anything i say is open game for misrepping so im just gonna take those layers away

[Ausuka]

I can see town looking at Ari dropping her activity having pushed it so hard and then think, 'ok what's up with that, if you can give it up so easily it was probably busywork' if that makes sense

I don't think I gave up particularly easily.

I made multiple posts trying to convince everyone to give me three numbers for example:

45 57 58 76 80 115 121


I gave up because it was fairly clear to me that people were not interested in the thought experiment and I have no desire to twist people's arms into doing something they are not interested in doing.

I mean I don't scumread you for this, I just think it's possible for town to look at your most recent posts at the time and have that thought process, if that makes sense

[Aristeia]

What even is the purpose of that, Ari? Would that help you read us? If not, shouldn't you be appealing to those who wouldn't answer or at least try and convince them?

So youre not at all still interested in finding out the result of what you want to do?

this is what he said to me.

the implication is that I didn't try to appeal to/convince the people who chose not to answer.

You can see from the posts cited:

45 57 58 76 80 115 121

that this is either a misrep or an outright lie.

I am aware that townies can make up false narratives because they are lazy and do not read what is actually happening; hence why I offered him the option of citing a completed game where he engaged in this kind of behavior as a town player so I know it is inside his townrange.

[Aristeia]

like sure maybe he made an honest mistake and he didn't read any of my posts trying to get people to give me numbers so he decided to just say i didn't try to convince anyone.

maybe that's true

but his response to me feels like playing gotcha, saying I'm misrepping him, and doubling down on me being scum rather than simply admitting he got this part wrong which feels like a scum reaction rather than a town figuring out what my alignment is reaction.

[Datisi]

some

[Datisi]

body