House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Is it just me that can't comprehend a green check on LLD? If Datisi does flip scum, LLD should be next

the only read you ever gave on her prior to this was "obvious town" in 2061

did you forget what your read was supposed to be or

I'm on phone but is that really the only progression on me? Mind you it is 2000 posts ago but.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Is it just me that can't comprehend a green check on LLD? If Datisi does flip scum, LLD should be next

the only read you ever gave on her prior to this was "obvious town" in 2061

did you forget what your read was supposed to be or

Her content dropped off massively, do you disagree?

It was already dead by that point. This is not an argument.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

That... Progression makes very little sense.

There was a whole subsection of conversation on day 1 about my competence as scum. Not only does the progression og being very town and "couldn't keep it up" not track remotely because I really wasnt scunread at all in early days.

But the logic doesn't track given you saw the posting that centered around that conversation called it town and then conveniently forgot this to mame the arguement that I somehow couldn't maintain my townieness?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Your logic is hollow, is the point I am making.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Challenge: Datisi

if all of my townreads are town then the POE is incredibly incredibly narrow and that is worrying me but I am not sure what to do

I mean.

Last night confirmed that the entirety of the town council is town. Shea town, Firebringer town, fireisredsir town, Datisi town, me town, Titus town.
The result on LLD is town--given Datisi town, that is absolute.

That's 7/13 as conftown right now.

Which, yes, means the scum pool is quite narrow--but when scum have been denied a seat on the council the entire game, them's the breaks.

There's 3 scum in 6 names.

{Roden, UNOwen, GuiltyLion, ProfessorDrapion, furtiveglance, Enchant}.

We basically have an autowin here.

But that said, I think Drapion is town here.
I lean town on Roden, too.

So that leaves four scum in {UNOwen, GuiltyLion, furtiveglance, Enchant}.
As you are in that pool, you naturally don't like it.

But that pool is absolute.

The seven conftown are conftown.
We have three scum left.
And that's three scum for six slots and you are a candidate.

My preference is furtiveglance > UNOwen = GuiltyLion > Enchant > Roden > ProfessorDrapion.

Still major red flags here.

This feels precisely like the kind of post that scum mastina makes when she's turning the corner and wants to create a wincondition for scum.

honestly, given that the people who are on the side of the King's Power currently believe the game is in auto lock, the only hanging thread that we need to confirm that is Datisi's alignment.

If we kill Datisi and Datisi flips town, we have Mastina/Titus/LLD town and we can appoint another cop, I think? I think we have the space to do that?

And if Datisi flips scum we murder Mastina and we're probably winning there too.

Frankly I just think this is the day to kill Datisi.

I'll say this much, if I suddenly die tonight after doing literally nothing this whole game just because I became confirmed town over the people in the council who are confirmed town with power.... you know what to do as town, right?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

why did it quote the enchant post...

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What to do is Mastina is fucking WRONG. It’s Narrow cause Mastina can’t open her eyes and realize at least 1 wolf is on the damn council.

Drapion the council literally knew who was being protected last night.

A failed kill literally gave the town a mislim.

You could argue that if scum deliberately failed a kill which kept the games on evens, they did so for towncred.

But we went into the night with 13 alive. Failing to kill kept us at 13 rather than 12--which literally gives the town an extra mislim that literally any kill would've stopped.

The scum could've killed literally anyone, except the player(s) the council were protecting.

And that would've kept the game on evens.

Instead, there is a no-kill, and the game went onto odds, giving the town a mislim.

Because the scum didn't know who to kill and in all probability, just shot Firebringer.
Something council members would know not to do.

There's a world where this is scum outguessing to achieve this result, you understand that right?

If we've won an extra miselimination, let's use it to confirm Datisi NOW.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don’t see why we have to clear dats now.
What is the urgency now?
U realize cop power has to go to fireisred ur scumread with all rest of us having two powers LLD
We throw away cop power this second

What's the urgency?

You've spent the whole game otherizing everyone outside of the council, and I don't trust your power structure not to lose to a team that contains scum in the council.

You want to give Dats 1 more day, 1 more investigation? that's the most I'm willing to give.

Because Datisi HAS to be cleared to confirm their results. It must happen and it cannot afford to occur JUST at ELO

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i am high. so it goes to titus which isn't bad i guess to LLD. I don't know what LLD read on Titus is independently tho

If Datisi town, Titus town.

If Datisi scum... I think Titus probably is still town? Less confident for sure but.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm being more swayed to lim Datisi now and give cop to Titus if he flips town or fireisred if he flips mafia

Andante and Dann is never S/S imo

when I was asked if I thought it was FireRed/MAstina/Datisi

And I gave the answer "mmm possible but not likely" or something

this is about what I meant, yes.

This + Datisi/Mastina making this play requires someone semi setup to be able to run the game once they run the table sufficiently long enough to put them into a spot to win.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: Datisi

[Lady Lambdadelta]

We're doing this today.

The plan having Titus cop if town and FireRed cop if scum is sufficiently acceptable to me and fits really well IMO.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

is furtive town to u

Probably not in a world where Datisi is town, no.

In a world where Datisi is scum, almost always.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i dont see how theres a connection there.

1) Mastina wants Furtive dead most of all and would see them flip today.

2) if Datisi scum, Mastina scum almost always IMO

3) if Datisi scum who claimed a fake innocent on a scum partner to give them power, their remaining crew will require some concept of a person who, once the game has been run through and Datisi and Mastina finally die, this person can take it to the end game.

Furtive does not fit this catagory.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

In other words, Furtive independently scummy but not able to be scum in a world with Datisi scum IMO

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My hero solve is FB/Datisi/Mastina

Quote this post-game my friends

I mean FB does fit the slot, right?

In a town enough position to be able to endgame once Datisi and Mastina are caught

Resiliant to the Datisi death, wants to delay it as long as possible...

It fits. Not sure that means it's TRUE but it fits.

Anyway if you want to be an actual hero kill Datisi with me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Okay i see. That makes sense.
Not gonna vote there but ur pov makes sense.

I did say in council chat as crazy theory talk if dats played the game to get mastina as prince with fake clear and then had somehow organized the kingsguard to kill Shea i would nom him for a scummy for brilliant scum play.

I won't ever allow a King execution that does not also execute the Prince. Right now it's 3+leader right?

If it comes 2-1 to me, I'll be the 2 that forces no kill.

If it comes 3-0 to me, I'll be the 4 that kills BOTH.

No other outcome will occur under my watch.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i do actually find furtive's recent posts to be somewhat towny tbh

Then come kill Datisi with me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

even in a dats scum world. The only scummy thing ive found about mastina is she townreads me.
That is just bizarre.

Sorry, and I do mean no offense by this, but your opinion need not apply in this circumstance. You're so locked in on the secret circle of the council that ANY opinion you hold will favour them.

You could be scum or just town who is completely fooled. You said it yourself, that you would rather lose without changing your mind than win.

I'm not like that, I want to take the guarantee. Datisi must die for information.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You want to give Dats 1 more day, 1 more investigation? that's the most I'm willing to give.

Because Datisi HAS to be cleared to confirm their results. It must happen and it cannot afford to occur JUST at ELO

this has always been the plan tho. we're at 10v3 right? 2 more elims puts us at 9p. we don't need to lim datisi today, i don't think there's that much of a rush? one more check seems better to me

the issue is that we run out of places for the cop to go as the council gets smaller, since people can only have 2 roles

The plan is already confirmed.

If Datisi is town, it goes to Titus.

If Datisi is scum, it goes to you.

We have the space to make this play, it's BETTER to make this play now.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think it's convient how mafia killed all trackers beforehand and when it was in firebringer hands they SUDDENLY got gigaplan to perform save.

What a coincidence.

I also think it's convenient how after the scum's kill failed last night, for SOME reason, we have players pushing Firebringer! (Or fireisredsir.)

It's almost like maybe, just maybe, the scum are upset at not getting their kill on the tracker

this

time.

Hey, make that logic with me Mastina,

Come on. I dare you. I just got cop cleared. I've been pushing against FireRed for days. I've been calling the tracker deaths sus for as long too.

Tell me I'm scum who is using this from convenience.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The whole council was saying dats wasn't going to be killed because the lot of you were pushing for a mislim on him and dats agreed with that.
Theres no reason for scum to kill dats when u all do it for them, that is why we decided no protection for dats. If scum wanted to clear up paranoia on dats that was okay in our books

yeah this is 100% logical. As long as we have space to assign another cop (we do) there's 0 sense in killing dats and doing the work for the town. of course if dats is scum that's also a great cover but yes, this is logical

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You want to give Dats 1 more day, 1 more investigation? that's the most I'm willing to give.

Because Datisi HAS to be cleared to confirm their results. It must happen and it cannot afford to occur JUST at ELO

this has always been the plan tho. we're at 10v3 right? 2 more elims puts us at 9p. we don't need to lim datisi today, i don't think there's that much of a rush? one more check seems better to me

the issue is that we run out of places for the cop to go as the council gets smaller, since people can only have 2 roles

The plan is already confirmed.

If Datisi is town, it goes to Titus.

If Datisi is scum, it goes to you.

We have the space to make this play, it's BETTER to make this play now.

why is it better now? i don't get what we gain

More space to operate with the same amount of information.

Like, what happens when we wait for tomorrow? How is that better? As it stands once we kill Datisi we have MORE information that the person we hand cop to will be town than ever before, we have MORE space to act on that information and decide if furtive or tohers are good elimiantions.

Killing Datisi first costs us 0 cop checks, it HAS to happen anyway, and gives us more info faster.

What's the DOWNSIDE here?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Information is information.

Yes, which is why the council is all town--the council had the information of where the protections were headed.
There was no kill last night.

So either the scum deliberately didn't make a kill in spite of that directly giving the town more info (giving them an extra mislim and giving Datisi another check)...

...Or the scum didn't have the info of where the protections were headed.

One of those seems far simpler to me!

Oh please we both know there are at least 5 players in this game who would purposefully shoot into a JK to try and do this clear. Double if you're already gambiting on the cop stuff.

But if you want to prove me wrong, all you have to do is help me kill Datisi, Mastina.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Come on, Datisi town means you titus and I are guaranteed town and they can't kill all of us.

And we get another cop check from a confirmed town Titus. Who we can protect, I believe. Right?

So I mean, it seems flawless to me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Who are the 4 other crazy mofos

The 5 are:

Shea
Me
Mastina
Titus
You

and before you say you would never do that, come on now.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

are we able to guarantee that we can protect the cop if necessary forever? i don't think we can guarantee that

Forever is not required. Who wants to live forever anyway?

I would wager... 1 night, maybe 2 would do the trick. If Datisi is town and Titus becomes cop, we can protect Titus.

Also, if Titus dies, doesn't one of the current kingsguard become the lord commander of the knightswatch... and join the council?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

scum shoot the doctor i mean, obviously

cops can't shoot people they would never do that

I want to again, remind that if Titus becomes cop and dies, doesn't another slot on the council open? Like I could become a council member via that method

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm being honest I don't see how it's different mechanically to lim Datisi now or tomorrow, and I know the difference in information we will have doing a non-datisi elim today vs post-datisi flip.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

To me there is exactly 0 downside to eliminating Datisi right now.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i mean killing a good town asset is always a downside.
This is why i argued against titus suggestion when she just said to not check u and just limming u.

This assumes Datisi is infact town.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Pooky has very actively refused to answer any questions about whether or not we can actually put new people on the council.

I'm gonna petition this directly to you as well.

Since you're king, I want you to look at the logic I'm presenting for killing Datisi today. If you agree, and if the town won't follow through...

please consider exexcution.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@LLD i dont get ur response.
Titus said u weren't worth a check because u were being detrimental to the town. I said that isn't a good reason to lim a Town!LLD. My point is limming a person because they could be scum when they are very good player and or you don't actually scumread them. Is in my opinion just paranoia based play that i don't think is good. But we disagree here so theres no point in me arguing this anymore.

I would rather see pushes on dats that has a read on them.
I see ur arguments of why mechanically its good. But im like not a "lets play 100% optimally to the mechanics so break this game" kind of person. Maybe this means im terrible and need to get good. I find this gamesmanshiping unfun. I have strong feeling on town dats. But w/e.

Done arguing. I have a deadline for work so im going to get back to it.

I understand the value you're trying to perserve. I'm not a whole mechanics player either, but so much of our game hinges on the swing between these two worlds. Datisi has become a mechanical anchor of information, a pinata that needs to be opened.

this is the fate of all cops in small town setups. they must be verified.

i'm not going to say we kill datisis before they give last will and testament but... they need to die and it should be today

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because Datisi HAS to be cleared to confirm their results. It must happen and it cannot afford to occur JUST at ELO

Lylo is at 7 players.

The day before lylo is 9 players.

We are at 13 players--literally two day phases away from that. (As a reminder: we GAINED an elimination due to the lack of deaths. It'd have been only

one

if literally anyone died last night. 12p gives mylo after two mislims. 13p gives mylo after three.)

I've no interest in eliminating a player I think is 100% guaranteed to be town right now when in those two days we can get two more check and quite probably just win the game outright, thankyouverymuch. One or two scum in those days, with two extra checks that can help narrow things down even further or just outright give us a guilty.

I don't really give a shit what you think Datisi is. If Dats is scum, you're always scum here so of course you say this?

Also, I'm not letting this thing happen where we wait to kill Dats until the DAY BEFORE ELO and then have NO FUCKIGN SPACE to work in.

Your logic is fucking bad and you know that. It's better to have miselims with MORE info than less.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah also it's not just resolving Datisi a Datisi townflip literally 100% clears three players

That's valuable in and of itself

^this

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i agree that datisi needs to die

im not even that confident that he's town. i thought he was more likely scum earlier and now my main reason for thinking that he's town is that idk how he wins as scum here and it feels like he would be doing something else to give him a better chance of winning (or if it's already unwinnable then maybe not trying so hard lol)

i just don't really feel like it needs to be today. i think we have a good chance at flipping a scum in the standard poe today and i would prefer to try to do that, and if we can't then we can go to datisi tomorrow

maybe that's not mechanically optimal, i think you're probably right, so i won't push for that i guess. my opposition to it might be on a more philosophical level

I know I still sort of scum read you and will probably revert to suspecting you in worlds where Datisi flips town (though furtive goes first I think, you really did sell me on furtive scum).

But you should strongly consider my arguments from a mechanical lens and a "what loses us the game" lens and playing around it.

And if you still can't find your way to killing dats today I get it but I think it's the wrong move.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

mastina. if datisi flips town aren't we like still in a very good spot? i don't particularly like it but i don't think it's gamethrowing to confirm the checks and then people can actually focus on the correct (in that world) poe

I'm very interested in the answer to this one, and how she will inevitably argue from the position it's bad and find an argument, as opposed to the other way around.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My main problem with the scum kills is that we literally told scum we would vote out Datisi the Day before ELO. If we somehow don't hit scum for the next two Days, then Datisi has five green checks when we hit 9 players left. If Datisi is town when we elim him there then we have 5 conftown vs 3 scum...there's zero way to mis-elim anyone in that ELO.

They aren't killing conftowns, just Trackers who never got confirmed. They aren't stopping the Cop in any way, even though they were directly told that our conftowns will outnumber the scum team by the time we reach ELO.

Somebody make this make sense.

Hey welcome to the team! It's called the killing Datisi today team.

Please lend us your vote.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The whole council was saying dats wasn't going to be killed because the lot of you were pushing for a mislim on him and dats agreed with that. Theres no reason for scum to kill dats when u all do it for them, that is why we decided no protection for dats. If scum wanted to clear up paranoia on dats that was okay in our books

And wouldn't ya know it?

Today every vote except for those on the furtiveglance wagon has been a vote on a council member!

I wonder why?

This is also bad logic.

How many times will we allow Mastina to make these nothingburger insinuative points that hold nothing and say nothing and prove nothing before we stop fucking accepting them.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hey, make that logic with me Mastina,

Oh you, you I'm not talking to because I don't want to get banned.

I have fucking WORDS I would like to say but I'm on

very

thin ice with the mafiascum mod teams (as-is I might still get banned anyway), so like. I can't say what I want to.

God that's always fun to hear.

"I'm really toxic and might get banned, so I'm not talking to you so I dno't be even MORE toxic and DEFINITELY get banned"

I didn't even do shit to you, lmfao.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What's the DOWNSIDE here?

It's guaranteed to be an elimination on town rather than on scum.

Just to satiate the paranoia of ONE fucking player that's town along with doing

exactly

what the scum want.

That seems like a pretty fucking huge downside to me!

Datisi is not guaranteed town

it's not paranoia, it's mechanical efficiency and optimal play... and avoids bad worlds we lose in given our current status

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hey, make that logic with me Mastina,

Oh you, you I'm not talking to because I don't want to get banned.

I have fucking WORDS I would like to say but I'm on

very

thin ice with the mafiascum mod teams (as-is I might still get banned anyway), so like. I can't say what I want to.

God that's always fun to hear.

"I'm really toxic and might get banned, so I'm not talking to you so I dno't be even MORE toxic and DEFINITELY get banned"

I didn't even do shit to you, lmfao.

Come on Mastina, let's hear the response to this nonsense.

Let's hear what it is that was so bad that you feel like saying bannable things?

Is it "LLD Suspected you"?

Is that the great sin?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So I mean, it seems flawless to me.

The flaw is that I don't want to eliminate town that satiates YOUR paranoia and YOURS ALONE, when you are

being backed by scum in doing so

.

I would much prefer we actually fucking lim the scum now and let the scum be boxed in further.

A Datisi mislim

opens doors

to the scum.

An elimination on one of the six possible scum slots boxes scum in even if it's a mislim.
We either get five names with two scum, or five names with three scum.
If the scum kill Datisi to stop the cop check, well waddaya know? Eliminating Datisi isn't necessary anymore!
If the scum don't kill Datisi and let the cop check go through, we've got:
-four names with three scum (if inno + mislim)
-five names with two scum (if scum lim + inno)
-Or four names with confscum (if guilty + mislim)

In every world, eliminating Datisi today is doing the scum's job for them and preventing us from narrowing the PoE down further.

This is bad logic, again. The plan continues to give us another cop who can do more checks and ICs we can actually rely on and eliminates a real viable world where there are problems if we don't remove it.

But your idea is to let it go until the day before ELO, and if you are scum that's great because now you and Datisi both die, kill anyone remotely townie remaining and leave your last person to clean it up.

If I'm wrong about that, killing Datisi now doesn't cost us a thing.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Honestly, would we even be having this conversation if the Cop was literally anyone besides Datisi

imagine me as cop.
there would be no hesitation to end me today.

yes but you have a killable face :3

(this is a joke)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i read it as a joke but then it was ruined by including the disclaimer.
rip

fuck

but if i don't include the disclaimer i might hurt someone

shit this is a catch 22

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i read it as a joke but then it was ruined by including the disclaimer.
rip

fuck

but if i don't include the disclaimer i might hurt someone

shit this is a catch 22

got to small print it and put more spaces so it gives a few more seconds for reader to see the joke before getting to disclaimer.

spoken like a true expert

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don't really give a shit what you think Datisi is.

I don't give a fuck what YOU think about Datisi because as far as I am concerned he's conftown.

Your logic is fucking bad and you know that. It's better to have miselims with MORE info than less.

No, yours is the bad logic--yes it's better to have mislims with more info than less.

A Datisi elimination REMOVES information. It doesn't give information. It REMOVES information. So your logic is the logic that fucking sucks because YOU are actively campaigning for a plan that would

deprive the town of information

.

You said it yourself; it's better to have mislims with more information than less, but a Datisi elimination isn't an elimination which gives info.

IFF you blindly believe Datisi is town, which I DON'T. It's less info EXPLICITLY if you have no concerns. You seem to be the only one who doesn't get this.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You arrogantly act as if your solve is the only solve that matters and your world is the only one which is true but it's not.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I would like to remind everyone that another Datisi check doesn't actually change the math. If Datisi is town, Titus gets to make that check from a townie for us.

If Datisi is scum, it's just another wasted empty cop check for people to point and go "oh is this one scum"?

We need to cop shuffle and that begins with killing Datisi TODAY.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because LLD is pocketed and angry.

??? Who is she pocketed by, and why are you characterizing her as angry?

Because it's easier to dismiss me as angry than it is to engage with me. Sadly.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm unclear on why today over a later day?

I'm pitching this to you in the most humble way I can.

I don't have the votes to kill Datisi today, I don't think. So at this point you understanding why this is valuable is key.

If anything I argue here does not parse for you let me know.

We live in one of two worlds, a world where Datisi is town and the game is more or less locked down.

And a world where Datisi is scum and we are in danger.

If Datisi is town and I am wrong to worry, what do we lose? We lose Datisi, obviously, but the cop goes to Titus and we can protect Titus so we continue to get results.

Additionally in this world there is no paranoia. All Datisi and Titus results are confirmed.

So that is the outcome if Datisi is town. If Datisi is scum, we never had a good cop to begin with so extra Datisi checks are useless, and knowing this in advance ans switching the cop to FireRed is advantageous for town. Provides actual checks.

Additionally, it gives us extra days to solve this problem we wouldn't otherwise have. Right now we are 10-3 which means we have 3 MLs minus duels. Each round we delay, the math looks worse.

I understand thar Datisi is a valuable resource but we are currently puttinf our eggs in one basket. We are best diversifying now and using that advantage ee gained by virtue of the lack of kill last night

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah people need to understand that scum Datisi will make the following play.

Not die today.

Kill LLD tonight.

Get a red check on GL tomorrow.

Flip GL as town

And then Datisi dies and we have 1 ML and no info beyond Datisi clesred some people falsely which ones are bad.

That is a huge loss for us, more or less.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

E minus 1

ayo sssshhhh keep it quiet

Do you even think I'm Mafia Titus? You just said let's wrap it up. I don't want to be wrapped up, I'm not a Christmas present

I have a chicago cubs hat. This game is just on mech solve unless Datisi scum.

We test that world at elo plus 1 day.

Game is just simple follow the cop. I don't need to think. There's no VCA to do. I'm just bored. Not going to help scum though.

It's a mech solve if Datisi is town and we check Datisi today too.

The only difference between doing it today and TWO DAYS FROM NOW lile Titus is suggesting is the world where Datisi is scum becomes WAY harder for town to win in.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Shea

It's a mech solve for the win if Datisi flips town today.

It's a mech solve for the win if Datisi is town in ALL worlds.

But we lose out if Datisi is scum and we wait on it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It's not tomorrow.

We are 10-3.

If furtive flips town and scum shoots, 8-3.

If we flip another townie and then scum shoots, 6-3

One more is 4-3

And then we are in ELO.

3 missed eliminations with no duels is what we currently have.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think if we're in the datisi town world we win and this doesn't really hurt us that much

i think the datisi scum world potentially becomes a concern sooner than i originally thought

the biggest point for me is that none of the checks have died. i think scum would have to basically be throwing in a town datisi world for that to happen

This is precisely my world view. I am not the best at... Being concise so this helps. This is where I am.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm starting to think we fucked up bad by putting Titus as LC

Imagine the world where Datisi/Titus/mastina are scum. They are close to a scum king, a fake guilty tomorrow may be game winning already

Posts like this make me not want to follow you LLD.

What am I meant to do about it? If Datisi flips town as you predict this take won't matter. And if they flip scum... Its reasonable to suspect people who were checked.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think if we're in the datisi town world we win and this doesn't really hurt us that much

i think the datisi scum world potentially becomes a concern sooner than i originally thought

the biggest point for me is that none of the checks have died. i think scum would have to basically be throwing in a town datisi world for that to happen

That's the rub though, I don't have a good response to what scum are doing beyond raging.

Okay but I'm not scum, I'm not raging and more importantly I am the one accepting both worlds (Datisi town, Datisi scum)

As far as I can tell your plan for If Datisi Scum is "dont worry about it" but I'm pretty worried about it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

sometimes i want games to be easy so much that i start believing that they are

they almost never are

im a little too willing to handwave away valid concerns and push and suppress them down to the back of my mind and hope i don't have to worry about them

it's a weakness i think, and it's lost town several games. i hope im not being dumb here and overcorrecting in trying to counter that tendency

My opinion is that we are hedging against a bad world but giving up very little to do so. I don't think this would be considered overcorrecting, I mean... The math is all sort of there.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

That's the rub though, I don't have a good response to what scum are doing beyond raging.

When you don't have a reasonable guess at what scum is doing, it's wise to hedge your bets in case someone you have been trusting has actually deceived you

Which is why the lim the cop at elo plus one day exists...

I don't see what limming Datisi gets us.

Titus can you really not see how having 1 elimination left when cop flips scum is worse than having 3, and how if we will have to test Datisi at some point regarsless it is better to do it now?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

still zero scum case on datisi.
Is this such a big ask for someone to provide me a look at datisi posts and tell me the scum motivation going on that i haven't seen.
I want someone to tell me this isn't just a paranoia/mechanic push.

No one is willing to do it. Its just 'this is optimal play'. That aint cutting it for me right now. Can someone scum case datisi

What are the chances that even if I provide you possible scum motivation in Datisi's play and choices this game so far you change your vote?

Have you considered that maybe it's not "no one cases Datisi so I don't change my mind" but rather "no one believes FB will ever be swayed so no one will do this for you"?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i want to go back to basics.
Who is genuinely scumhunting and who isn't.
Whose reads thought processes make sense from town pov. Whose doesn't.
I am not engaging in hypothetical situations for remainder of this game day. SOMEONE HOLD ME TO THIS.
I am just going to analyze posts and thoughts and see if they are genuine or make sense.

Why is it after a game of playing insider baseball with your team over there you are only NOW deciding not to do mechanical play?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Is it because for once you aren't in control? For once you have to consider following someone else's plan?

Show me you give enough of a shit to even consider if my plan makes mathematical sense and I'll consider believeing that you have any chance of changing your vote.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Do you really think it would be hard for me to create this case for you?

But if your goal was never to br convinced but to rail against the move the whole time that case would bog things down wouldnt it?

You would have all kinds of things to argue about that arent solid mechanical play.

Town or scum I don't trust that this isn't a trap to stop this movement in a tar of redtape. I don't trust you actually want to engage FB. That's my issue.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I apologize. I should make it clear when im saying i want a scum datisi case. I want people to proclaim it so i can analyze if they believe it or not.

No, I don't think i will be swayed. I am not asking someone to sway me right now.
My purpose of asking this is two fold:
1) I want to see how much people actually believe datisi is scum because that will help me further read them better post datisi scum flip
2) I want to see where there COULD be gaps in my townread datisi that im blind to.

Do i think im going to be swayed? No. But right now this proposal of wagon has gotten people to jump on that is unreadable for the lot of them. I don't think i can figure out a motivation for this datisi push based on how its presented.

If you will never be swayed, then why should we care.

It isn't you we need to convince and we would infact be WASTING OUR TIME

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why would anyone give you anything without the promise of return?

If you won't play ball with us... We won't play ball with you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i don't think its a waste of time to get people to make a scum case of datisi if they believe datisi is scum. But w/e.
the way you present ur last post suggests it will be a 100% horse shot shoehorned case that you made out of thin air. So i guess i would just not believe u even believe ur case when u made it. Feels sort of poison well but w/e.

I'm saying that I can make myself believe whatever I need to believe to succeed. It won't make it any more true or false than it currently is.

The argument is mechanical and logical. I don't need a read on Datisi to be correct.

Asking for one is futile because any scum can fabricate... Just like I can.

Engage with our argument or disagree but if you wont be swayed I see no reason to give you what you request i have 0 incentive.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

so are u saying i won't be able to tell a scum fabricated case from a town one?
I feel like that is counter intuitive to how mafia is played.

I'm saying your inherent bias will seek to disprove any Datisi scum case because you are not open to believing Datisi is scum.

So at best you are going to try and decide which people who agree with the mechanical argument are good at casing and which are bad.

Neither of which are indicative of scum. You should know that.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You have fabricated a scenario in which you will ask for info and then rely on your prior gane bias and end up guessing based on which cases you "believe" but the strength of a case's argument has never been an indicator of alignment beyond whether they arr correct or not.

You learn nothing but your own bias.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

No, i am deliberately trying to figure out who is actually motivated to lim a scum!datisi here and who is just riding on ur mechanic theory and using you as cover tbh.

I don't know why you cant let me just push this question to people. ur kind of deliberately pushing against me trying to solve the motivations of people who agree with you. Because it can hurt the chances datisi flips.

Yes, because it hurts the chances Datisi flips. And you know it does this. Which is your actual intent in doing this.

Because you gain nothing but your own bias from doing this.

So why would I let you do it unchecked?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I already am aware of my bias. What are we even arguing about.
Ive stated im not here to ask to be swayed. I am here to figure out who really believes datisi is scum.
I get you think thats unimportant and won't net me any results. But why can't i do this.
Because i won't do what you want? Ok great. Thanks

Because you know it will be used to prevent a Datisi flip, which is your end goal.

And because you have 0 desire to be swayed, nothing you gain holds value either.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

and ive already agreed to flipping datisi tomorrow.
So this whole "firebringer won't play ball" and "firebringer just wants control". Its like projection to me.

And what happens when Datisi has a guilty tomorrow FB?

You gonna kill Datisi before the guilty?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

and ive already agreed to flipping datisi tomorrow.
So this whole "firebringer won't play ball" and "firebringer just wants control". Its like projection to me.

And what happens when Datisi has a guilty tomorrow FB?

You gonna kill Datisi before the guilty?

depends. If we flip scum today, then might just flip the guilty tomorrow. If we don't flip scum today. Fine will still flip datisi tomorrow even if guilty.

I wonder. I really wonder if that is true. I certainly don't believe it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Titus is already saying elo+1 day. That isn't tomorrow it's the day after.

So what happens then? She says let's flip the guilty we do and then it's oops Datisi was scum and now we need to find scum in mastina/titus/I with only one mistake to make and lets say its just datisi/titus/??? For a second. Mastina and I are town in this world.

Do we win this game? I don't see us winning. Mastina will die we will go to ELO and we won't have space to miss again.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

if we don't flip scum today. Say furtive flips town.
My reads have been trash. So i can't just rley on them.
That is where i am at

Do you know how fucked we are if it's Datisi/Titus/Shea for example if we don't kill Datisi today? Not saying it is, but that is a functional possible team.

We lose to that if we don't make our move today.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

FB I'm not trying to be difficult without purpose. I promise.

I even half expect I could be wrong and worrying for nothing.

But... It's wrong not to do this now. And I have to lean into it hard.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Roden, today would be the day to strike back then.

Datisi is the correct play today, what would it take for you to join me on this wagon?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

datisi I know you saw this because you posted in small council. What are your thoughts on this?

how

rude

i have skimmed, and by skimmed i mean *heavily* skimmed. i don't intend to fight my yeet too hard because i understand whoever wants my death is just gonna be parroting the mechanical argument ad nauseam. but i do sense that there is very strong scum motivation to getting me yeeted, and i intend to reread those pushing for it to try to leave y'all in a better position after i die. i will get to doing that in a lil' bit, about to eat dinner

Yes I would like your last will and testament in case of you being town for certain.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i was continuously being protected up until last night. scum couldn't kill me. i think it's v obvious i'm town via dayplay, so the only way to score my misyeet is by arguing the mechanics.

i have skimmed, and by skimmed i mean *heavily* skimmed. i don't intend to fight my yeet too hard because i understand whoever wants my death is just gonna be parroting the mechanical argument ad nauseam. but i do sense that there is very strong scum motivation to getting me yeeted, and i intend to reread those pushing for it to try to leave y'all in a better position after i die. i will get to doing that in a lil' bit, about to eat dinner

Like am I the only person who finds this comment incredibly awkward and forced considering the two specific people who are pushing this narrative? It's like Datisi knows that town!dats would probably not be that upset about being yeeted but had a hard time squaring it with the actual reality of the push which is primarily coming from someone he has a clear on.

I have a hard time really thinking scum!LLD would be pushing for this because contrary to the claim, I don't really see a lot of motivation for scum to get datisi in particular rn, considering the cop role persists. And in a world where datisi is getting shit pushed LLD has to be town?

Mmm. This has taken a lot out of me.

I thought throwing my weight around would make me feel normal again but instead I'm twice as anxious as I ever have been.

Still... Recent posting has me even more convinced than ever that this is the path we must take.

Flipping Datisi and playing from there is how we win without pitfall.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Can you give us your last will on who you think is scum Datisi?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If Dat comes in with a red check and that check ends up flipping Green.
We vote Firebringer, not Dat.



Explanation: as I said before Dat is only a wolf with Firebringer.
Why do you think the people kept dying except for when Firebringer received it?
Dat felt safe there.
Dat flipping wolf also makes their clears no longer clears I he knows this and it allows the last 2 wolves to push those clears along with any misguided town that think One of Dat’s clears are a wolf.
All of Dat’s clears are town, it’s a wolf strat.
If Firebringer starts telling you that a clear is a wolf, push him around, call him names and vote his ass.

No dude.

We kill Datisi first. PLEASE just... follow the logic, don't be swayed.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Eh.

Let's do that: we let Datisi live next night, but without protection. If mafia kills him, cool. If not.

He will state check. Regardless of what this check is, i will challenge Datisi on duel. Two times if necessary. Depends on outcome, we work out situation.


Issue is. I don't want to vote furtive either. I have feeling he thinks like me, therefore town.

There are only 2 choices today. Datisi or Furtive.

Please stop going for plans where it involves trusting future people. Duels are not reliable. Datisi DOES NOT NEED TO ACCEPT.

Please just vote Datisi with us. It is mechanically correct, if you're town this is the path. Please trust me. Please.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Eh.

Let's do that: we let Datisi live next night, but without protection. If mafia kills him, cool. If not.

He will state check. Regardless of what this check is, i will challenge Datisi on duel. Two times if necessary. Depends on outcome, we work out situation.


Issue is. I don't want to vote furtive either. I have feeling he thinks like me, therefore town.

There are only 2 choices today. Datisi or Furtive.

Please stop going for plans where it involves trusting future people. Duels are not reliable. Datisi DOES NOT NEED TO ACCEPT.

Please just vote Datisi with us. It is mechanically correct, if you're town this is the path. Please trust me. Please.

Actually it’s mechanically correct to resolve Furtive first and then resolve Dat the next day.

It's really just not. All Datisi checks are questionable. If Datisi is town, Titus becomes cop and the checks are no longer questionable. If Datisi is scum, the checks were NEVER VALID ANYWAY.

All that will happen is Datisi is going to come back with a scum check tomorrow and people will vote that instead. Furtive isn't necessarily scum and killing Furtive before Datisi flips is always bad.

If Datisi flips green I promise you 100%, if Titus doesn't green Check Furtive? I will kill Furtive next.

But it should be Datisi then furtive, because more info, not the other way around.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If he does not accept. He scumclaims. So... Problem solved?

Do you really think that people would accept that as a scumclaim? They won't.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I know third option.

VOTE: Thestatus
Please vote, so status will decide. Or atleast waste execution and won't bother us tomorrow with NOOOO DATISI IS TOWN I BELIEVE

Hey, so what happens if Shea is scum and Datisi is scum and we don't kill Datisi today?

You recognize we lose the game in almost all worlds in that setup, right?

If you're willing to vote Shea here, Datisi is the correct play.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If he does not accept. He scumclaims. So... Problem solved?

Do you really think that people would accept that as a scumclaim? They won't.

if i do end up with a red check, not challenging there would be a scumclaim, yes

i can also say right now that i will do both trials tomorrow if i am alive, and if i don't then kill me? i know you won't care, but.

You've predicted my temperament precisely. You could possibly WIN those duels as scum and put town -1 before you die, which is perfect for you if you are scum.

We should be killing Datisi today.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I BELIEVE KING IS TOWN BUT I DON'T THINK HE IS RELIABLE DAMNIT

Enchant, can we do a trust trade?

Trust me on this vote, and tomorrow, whatever vote you want to achieve I will support it within reason.

I am that certain this is the correct play.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If he does not accept. He scumclaims. So... Problem solved?

Do you really think that people would accept that as a scumclaim? They won't.

+1

We just push hard to execute Dat.
We want Town to win, I want to win!!

I'm running low on posts, but I'm begging you to see things my way.

I'm a strong player who is more or less confirmed town at this point, I can only be scum with the person I'm trying to kill.

So I'm either town and driving something home
or scum bussing my buddy

Both scenarios are positive for you as town.

I know you think Furtive first is better but mechanically speaking it isn't and I'm asking you to trust me now, build the bond now, and I'll work with you to achieve what you want to achieve tomorrow.

Just give me Datisi first please.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD....ur trying to trade with Enchant.....
Enchant.

What has this world become

I'd make this deal with you if I felt you had any chance of flipping your vote, friend.

But in the game of counting votes, I'll make deals with people who are more flexibly available to get my point through.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I BELIEVE KING IS TOWN BUT I DON'T THINK HE IS RELIABLE DAMNIT

Enchant, can we do a trust trade?

Trust me on this vote, and tomorrow, whatever vote you want to achieve I will support it within reason.

I am that certain this is the correct play.

King Shea is more on the right track here then Mastina IMO.
And I’m hoping Mastina keeps their end of the deal on a Furtive town flip or not only am I gonna be pissed, I’m just going to accept the loss and blame it on Mastina post game cause sometimes I can be a douche like that.

Can we not talk about doing things to lose in a game we're meant to play to win, please?

I'm begging you. Ignore Mastina, ignore deals and promises from people who aren't reliable.

Make a deal with me instead.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If he does not accept. He scumclaims. So... Problem solved?

Do you really think that people would accept that as a scumclaim? They won't.

+1

We just push hard to execute Dat.
We want Town to win, I want to win!!

I'm running low on posts, but I'm begging you to see things my way.

I'm a strong player who is more or less confirmed town at this point, I can only be scum with the person I'm trying to kill.

So I'm either town and driving something home
or scum bussing my buddy

Both scenarios are positive for you as town.

I know you think Furtive first is better but mechanically speaking it isn't and I'm asking you to trust me now, build the bond now, and I'll work with you to achieve what you want to achieve tomorrow.

Just give me Datisi first please.

Mmmm
Shit.
Do I want to keep the deal with Mastina who is being brainwashed by wolves or do I want to vote with a basically confirmed Town not being brain washed and cannot be pushed on and would also be willing to make a deal with me.


Fuck it, let’s do it.
VOTE: Dat

Sorry Mastina but I know this deal is coming from a town that isn’t being brainwashed.

You won't regret it. Thank you for taking a chance.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I BELIEVE KING IS TOWN BUT I DON'T THINK HE IS RELIABLE DAMNIT

Enchant, can we do a trust trade?

Trust me on this vote, and tomorrow, whatever vote you want to achieve I will support it within reason.

I am that certain this is the correct play.

I want to exe Datisi. But i want to also do some damage control in case he IS town. Somehow.

Let's be blunt, i don't believe Datisi is town. Yet it's still possible.

Well Datisi has already given us their last will and testament.

Datisi has already shared their final reads.

If you want to EXE Datisi.. now is not a terrible time to do so. Roden has already given their stance, Shea weighed in without confirming how they would vote.

This is more mechanical that read, so we don't care more than that for opinions, this is a fine time to hammer if you feel inclined.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Enchant.
Why are you refusing to listen to both Lady and Mastina?

Shea is town and less brainwashed then Mastina is yet you vote a likely town? Doesn’t make sense.
do you not want to follow Mastina nor Lady?

What’s the issue here Enchant?

To be fair, Enchant is listening to me here.

I would like Enchant to hammer Datisi here, personally.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Now to hold my breathe and hope for a scum flip.

I mean, it's fine either way as I've argued, but... i'm holding my breath and hoping for a scum flip

[Lady Lambdadelta]

damn, couldn't even let me celebrate 3rd place in wc in peace before letting me to respond to gl, huh

game should still be a win. give titus the cop. probably don't even waste a cop check on furtive, just kill them anyway if a green one elsewhere. gl actually isn't a bad check since he is a good asset if town and misyeeting him is a bigger tragedy than misyeeting furtive

Congrats on the 3rd place! I'm cheering for my France to win. Allez les Bleus!

If you are infact town, we'll use this death as a platform to get to the win. And if you are town... I'm sorry that your death was necessary. At least from my perspective.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm just rooting for penalty shootout tomorrow

MONSTER

:3

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Vote: Titus

[Lady Lambdadelta]

we all got pocketed by Datisi

Speak for yourself bucko

[Lady Lambdadelta]

:3

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don't know if it is, tbh. Scum were VERY close to a win if we don't kill Datisi the day we did, as I explained.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I was 5/5 on my Day 1 town reads. What a fucking list that was.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My only really super bad wrong read this game was Andante/FireRed as scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Nice job late game LLD. I wish you could have felt more engaged early on, but great job getting datisi when you did

yeah i wasn't lying about becoming demotivated. It was enough for me to read along with the game and not get put behind by 100 pages, but.... alll I could really muster up doing for a while was prod dodging.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i so want to read ur guys chat on how u decided to fake clear both mastina/titus
How preplanned was that?

i was trying to save them from death. that was all.

it only occurred to me way too late that clearing titus would look suspicious when she's in the kingsguard and andres was about to die. i never planned to try to shove her into the council.

i was hoping it would look less suspicious if dann died since the more "logical" choice for scumtisi would've been clearing dann there, but not like it mattered...

Figured it would be this if it was Mastina/Titus.

I was really wondering if you would clear one and have a backup secret third mafia. That was my real fear, but the Kingsguard failing to overthrow Mastina was...a scum claim so

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well, Dann, let me just say that if your name starts with D, I Don't Trust You currently.

Actually let me stretch that to A as well, wow that works cleanly.

I'm not sure who in that group of 5 names is actually scum but I don't trust the way any of you have approached the past 10 pages.

I also dislike Shea and Ti- Oh, hey, I'm not trustful of T's either.

Mastina is being a wildcard, which is standard.

I like Rhae, UNOwen, Luke and Junko for town, currently.

That rounds my five actually.

Owen Shea Junko Luke Rhae.

As town if that wasn't clear.

God my Day 1 reads were actually so insane this game lmfao. I had a day 1 Mastina scum read from her reads list, didn't trust ANY of the Ds (Dann Dwlee Datisi) or Titus (Ts). And I was sus of Shea (TheStatusQuo for the other T) but then flipped that and found him town too.

Holy fuck I actually had the whole game if I had just like, stayed motivated lmfao.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

that feels so bad that i let myself get depressed

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I also wanna say that beyond my mech play being correct I also did scumread Mastina and Datisi, which was a big part of it, despite Mastina's protests lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah even in the moment my Kingsguard selected to kill TSQ, it was only to try and kill Mastina, and the act of doing so closed the noose around the PoE of the game via Titus voting protect secretly.

shea was a good choice for king, in the end

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I was very pleased with my council picks. It was the best my reads were all game lmao.

Was it only Datisi as scum within your initial picks?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah and i deliberately have him cop because i thought he could do the least damage with that because i was hedging against him being the scum i was sure was in {gl dat VPB}

mmhmm. It definitely allowed me to weaponize the mech solve to get to that place

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I mean part of the issue is that i just didn't really believe that mastina was town, even with the check.

Same. I mean, I literally wanted to kill Datisi to kill Mastina (or see myself as wrong).

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I wonder if the correct play from Titus is to just let mastina die in the overthrow. Limiting the Poe to just kingsgaurd with you and gl just completely clear by play was a 0%er.

Not really sure there was a good play though.

Yeah it felt very locked down, because no matter what, I told people in the thread.

"When I die, and I might die, listen to my words. I'm going to try and overthrow Mastina and Shea tonight, kill titus tomorrow. If the game isn't over from that, you've got this yourselves, but Enchant/Drapion/Roden are all town."

So essentially, I told them, just kill Shea/Mastina/Titus. I think given that, Mastina and titus were always dying.